MN Surcouf - A Mysterious Disappearance, Never Solved
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- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2024
- There are many missing submarines. Mostly lost while at war, in the deep waters of the Atlantic and Pacific. None of them have quite the mystique that Surcouf does.
The then-largest submarine in the world, that went missing without a trace in early 1942. Conspiracy theories have abounded ever since. From being sunk supplying German U-Boats, to vanishing in the Bermuda Triangle.
The most likely answer is more mundane, if rather unfortunate.
Further Reading:
www.amazon.com/WHO-SANK-SURCO...
www.amazon.com/French-Navy-Wo...
warfarehistorynetwork.com/art...
And, the article with the Martinique Theory:
archive.navalsubleague.org/20...
archive.navalsubleague.org/20...
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With regard to the loss of Surcouf in a putative collision, I urge you to look at the loss of HMS M-1 in the English Channel in 1925. Like Surcouf, M-1 was a submarine cruiser, the difference being it had only one big gun in its turret (it may have been battleship-calibre, though). Britain's M-boats were direct descendants of the notorious K-boats, another evolutionary dead end submarines passed through during the inter-war years. The K-boats were intended to sail with the main fleet and keep up with them, before diving to attack in a general engagement and thus, in order to keep pace with surface warships, the K-boats were steam-powered, There's a few good videos on RUclips explaining what a horrible idea the K-boats were, but the M-boats inherited the remaining hulls when production ceased. M-1 became a submarine cruiser and M-2 became a seaplane carrier. I don't know off-hand what madness befell M-3, but it was probably on a par with the other two. Anyway, M-1 was lost with all hands while on a training patrol and was suspected to have been rammed by the Swedish steamer SS Vidar, which reported striking an underwater object and, when drydocked, was found to have damage to her bow and forward keel. The damage was actually quite minor and was easily fixed, hence why people for a long time had trouble believing Vidar did indeed sink M-1. However, when M-1's wreck was discovered in 1999 it was found that the turret was detached and was lying upside down on the seabed directly adjacent to the hull. The only way it could have ended up like that, it was theorized, was as a result of an impact, which lent credence to the Vidar theory. The 1999 investigation demonstrated that the turret was M-1's real Achilles heel, a weak spot on the deck that, if breached underwater, would lead to catastrophic flooding because, just like Surcouf, its ammunition storage hoist ran vertically from the magazine at the bottom of the hull up a shaft to the turret and there were no watertight doors or cut-offs to close it in the event of a breach. It's surmised that Vidar struck the submerged M-1 a glancing blow that was just enough to knock the turret off its mountings and let the water flood in, causing M-1 to be destabilized and to roll over in the direction of the turret, which then fully snapped off as a result of the forces acting on it as it sank, and the two came to rest on the seabed side by side at a depth of around 250ft. It seems there were some survivors in a rear compartment but there was no way to rescue them because the Admiralty didn't know for several days that M-1 had been lost and there was no escape equipment on board capable of supporting an ascent from that depth. When the wreck of M-1 was surveyed a rear deck hatch was found to have been opened from the inside. The escaping crewmen's bodies were never found.
Excellent comment mate.
I concur,
Makes sense
Oh my word, what a terrible story about those sailors.
Great piece of writing & thank you for sharing.
It is said that "The French follow no one, and no one follows the French".....seems to work in this case
The Surcouf was an "improvement" on a previous British design, the M-boats, of which three were built and at least two were lost in accidents. The submarine cruiser concept was inherently unviable due to the compromises that had to be made in order to get them to "work".
Well Australia is paying for the pleasure of refurbishment of the USA submarine ship yards after our LNP government stuffed up the order of French su try yo converted their nuclear sub in to diesel electric sub
The naval treaties limited the number of 8in armed ships but they didn't limit the number of submarines. English and French thought they could game the system but someone should have thought having the rangefinder so low and only having 2 shots per broadside makes 8-inch guns quite pointless.
No one follows them because most don’t carry a white flag with them unlike the French.
Profound. Must have been said at 10pm in a British pub.
I think she got sunk by mistaken identity.
Didn't she get put on convoy escort duty, that probably wouldn't end well. Drachinifel has a vid on this.
a treaty none of the signatories like sounds like a success
I love the silly rumors about what happened to the sub. At my home, there are persistent tales of a German Submarine slipping into the Bay of St. Louis (just off the Gulf of Mexico, near New Orleans) and a local store owner replenishing all their food stocks for a high profit. I have heard this for 50 years. The problem with this story is that the Bay is only 7 feet deep !!!
That would put a bit of a crimp on the tale.
Although to be fair, the tale could have been misunderstood over time, and that the German crew used inflatables to get ashore, ie the CREW went into the bay, but their submarine did not.
It's an unlikely tale, but not impossible.
I've heard rumors that a lone Jap sub fired on the California coast in 1941.
Germans didn't anticipate stopping why would they have American money. But they could have arrived in rubber boats.
It would be incredible if and when the remains of the Surcouf are found.
I can just imagine the Germans arriving at the refit base, and quietly telling the French to slip away just to be able to laugh more at the Allies misfortunes.
I think the captain just tapped his heels together said "Theres no place like home" before Scotty beamed the whole sub up. Now there whalers on the moon they carry their harpoons but there ain't no whales so they tell tall tales and sing their whaling tune.
Address all complaints to the Monsanto corporation...
I know you’ve already did a video on Nagato’s wreck, but could we see a video on Nagato herself?
Mostly, general consensus at the battle off Samar seems to be that she missed all her shots, but naval historian Robert Lundgren has proven otherwise. She hit USS Hoel with a 16.1-inch shell to her bow during her torpedo attack, and later alongside Yamato raked Hoel with gunfire, hitting her with both her main and secondary guns, helping to send her to the ocean floor.
Design Team: "Monsieur, which is more important.... torpedo's or a brig for 40 men"
Naval Command: "...they will surrender in droves when they see this. Let's go with the brig but put in lots of tubes so we look serious. Besides we have our 8 inch guns... torpedo's are so overrated."
Naval Command 20 minutes later: "...ummm, by chance do we have room for a plane?"
Design Team: "...hmmm, I guess, but wouldn't you rather have more torpedo's?"
Naval Command: "NO, WE DON'T WANT ANYMORE TORPEDO'S."
*torpedoes
Apostrophes are never used for the plural forms of words.
TY-I am guessing all those non-fatal explosions, and mishaps, stressed the hull so much she killed herself in a dive, but where?
Not really a theory but an observation: the ocean is a very big and hostile playground-putting to sea in an unstable boat is never a good idea.
Solved.
Thanks, Skynea. Take care.
Was sunk by Tom Hanks in that horrendous movie
WIIIILLLLSON!!!!!
Shocking movie for sure. Wiilllssonn is long since drowned.
What a kooky piece of engineering :)
Brilliant concept ....but stupid idea !!
Applaud the effort.
It's like a Frankenstein of the seas
The U.S. Navy had their own cruiser subs. The Norwal and the Nautilus.
Awesome video!
the aircraft whe see at 9.06 is not a autogiro but a Breguet contra rotative rotors helicopter prototype, so called Gyroplane, like the 1934 Breguet Dorand Gyroplane laboratoire...
Good catch
Autogyros are pretty cool.
But counter rotating helis like Russia has are pretty amazing aircraft
It will never not be funny seeing a submarine with an oversized twin turret on it. It looks so ridiculous
That’s France for you…..
never heard of this,
very interesting.
Cool looking sub.
It looks like some thing from the US civil war
I feel that Surcouf would have benefitted greatly from having a mortar installed instead of the 8" guns.
motar did not work on a moving plateform
That's one goofy looking vessel 😅 Thanks for the video
you know that last image, I think I actually saw it in someone's video on aircraft carrying submarines... 😜 (just kidding, great job man!)
Of course no real idea at all but my guess her sinking was alot more simple.. an experienced crew and during a diving drill someone left a hatch or valve open and she flooded and sunk.
It all sounds like the sub was a waste of resources that would have been best laid up for the duration of the war
Are there any expeditions planned to attempt to find Surcouf?
Not that I’m aware of. It’s a difficult one to look for, even if you base a search off the collision and air attack locations.
may it have inverted 180 degrees perhaps because of the top heavy configuration, that with the ballast etc. just a thought
If they ever find the sub. It be an interesting discovery.
@Skynae history: I was hoping you were going to say that they finally found it, but I'm glad you did a video because most people don't know about this sub.
Thompson Lykes trying to be a secret carrier? 😅
after the Martinique episode, an angry Churchill ("the heaviest cross I have to bear...is the Cross of Lorraine") wanted Surcouf and her Gaullist crew erased. She was and they were, by a Brit cruiser in Mid-Atlantic.
Except it wasn’t….. 🙄
@davidluck1678 What enjoyment do you get out of lying like this? I just don't get it.
My father was on PC 1086. They had to do target fire with their 3 inch gun at an island. The Atlantic was so rough they could not hit the island! The PC was a very unstable craft, but it did carry debt charges and could chase submarines around which they did. The captain of the PC was very disgusted and called the whole thing off.
Interesting.
She made it to Australia in 1942 where my father, a sailor in the RAN saw her.
No
Who knew all this happened? Apparently YOU And we appreciate it. Thank you for the video.
Never knew this ship existed.
Legend has it, Captain Nemo is still cruising around in his submarine...
That is so weird looking-a sub with a turret
Ive always had a soft spot for this sub. I doubt she would have performed very well in combat, but she was a masterful feat of engineering. Flawed concept but a unique design that likely would have been a potent weapon for WWI.
One of the “weirdest and worst” ships.
HMS Captain is probably going to wear the crown of worst ship for a good while yet.
The photo is "from a Japanese production"? You mean the Japanese made a movie about Surcouf? Or did the Japanese build their own version of a sub with a big gun turret similar to Surcouf during the War?
I just love all of the heavy criticism of this innovative boat, built in the 1920s in response to the restrictions of the Washington Treaty. How are all those Littoral Combat Ships working out for the US Navy? At least the French only built 1 Surcouf, there are 17 LCS, most sitting in port...what a wonderful waste of billions. The Japanese copied many of the features of the Surcouf for their I-400...I dont see anyone copying anything from the junk LCS.
Good grief !! What a dumpster fire!
You want to find the Surcouf? Look for a missing enemy ship that should have been in the Surcouf patrol area. Triangulate where the two vessels would have likely met based on their last known position and typical cruising speed. It seems likely it was a battle to the death for both vessels, or one would have reported the kill of the other.
The same people who took this boat are the same ones that operate the tic tac UFOs right now 😂
I'd imagine the RV petrel is keeping an eye out for her
How did this make it off the drawing board?
Because it hadn't been done before. Flying machines were still a fairly new thing. M class subs were a British take on the idea.
My uncle served on that Sub.
By the way the day that the British navy attacked the French fleet in Algiers a shoot out happend on board this Sub in a British port.
3 Brits and a Frenchman were killed.
Aurait t-il coulé à Mers le Kebir ?
@@MrJeepsters
British Royal Marines boarded all Free French ships in England before the news of the attack got out.
In case of trouble, and there was on the Sub.👎 when the French found out.
The Brits dodged the Washington Treaty by forcing their Commonwealth navies (Australia, Canada, New Zealand) to ditch their larger ships
No they didn’t 🙄
Looks like a boss out of a Metal Slug game lmao
I think that the fate of this sub is referred to in the book Far Aft and Faintly..
It'll be found eventually, just like the French fry we find years later under the mattress.
I was always told she submerged to fire her main guns - the muzzle above water obviously
She was taken to the other alternative Earth where the Destroyermen went to and was taken over by the League. She was then sunk by USS Walker DD163 in the Indian Ocean who were on their way to Madagascart to fight the Grik
It looks top heavy.
Has no one thought this Is the dumbest sub design ever seen? It capsized itself and sank.
The French built such UGLY ships. The SUCCOTH was one of them.
Goodness sounds like it had a sitdown restaurant and a starbucks
Battle cruisers are the best old school naval ship imo xD 12 inch guns that can go 60kph+
*"The Goof" is a better name for this sub/ship.*
It was scuttled in Bounty Bay.
Under water mine took it out.
I wonder if they found a way of replenishing her torpedoes with british or american manufactured ones
It had to have survived much longer. How else could it have spirited Adolf off to South America in 1945?
Hitler rode a V2 rocket to S America.
The end of Dr. Strangelove was inspired by it, except Adolf was riding it sidesaddle
What in the hell was somebody smoking when they designed this thing?
"I never realized what mean guys those Vichy French are"
(paraphrasing a kung fu movie)
She got sunk by stupidity it sounds like. I guess it's easy to blame Vichy spies when you don't want to acknowledge that you were hostile to a peaceful crew instead of having a conversation. Further not surprising that that crew wouldn't trust you and would choose to return home and leave you to flounder about on your own. It further makes sense that the British would have covered up any accidents involving this vessel because it would have been their fault. Even if it wasn't it's wartime so it's still not going to be widely reported. It's probably covered up after the fact because they know they had an unprepared crew and they knew why they had an unprepared crew and they knew if that information went public the French sailors would be like hold on a second. We were willing to help right up to the moment y'all started shooting at us .....
I’m here because of azur lane also can’t they check her last known location on the map on her Wikipedia page?
A ship reported hitting a partially submerged object at a suitable location and time. The odds of this not being a collision with the Surcouf are extremely small.
i known this , but the small size from the hit object did absolutly not fit with the Surcouf who is massive
@@leneanderthalien Look at the sinking of the broadly-similar British submarine M1.
Why do we need 2 8" guns?
Captain"
Turbo boosters.
The French seem to dance to a different drum not unlike the Japanese. The French although very stylish with clothes and building just don't seem to get designing vehicles etc.
Dassault Rafale. Something more?
which super-villains bought these?
When you try to submerge a cruiser.
It sank. Mystery solved.
Has anyone looked for her?
Her design in Azur Lane is just absolute perfection.
Not that mysterious, really. It was an experimental hull, and due to recent events we all know how quickly things can go wrong with experimental subs.
There also a claim the Sub was lost when according to report a Mine in the canal zone approaches. There also a good chance the Surcouf may have been damaged by the ram but then hit a german floating mine. They were reported in the area by other ships. There was also a large travel lane the sub was using that was basically a Stay in between the lines so air craft dont rip you apart thinking your a uboat. The theory is the ram damaged the radio as there no comms for help and they were located in the most exposed areas then a mine killed her engine and she drifted without means to alert anyone and the Planes though they had found a "milkcow" uboat.
France with any sort of navy is hilarious
Not in 1781 it wasn't.
Aliens 👽 came down and brought it into space and turned it into a spaceship. 😆😆😆😆
It seems like a lousy experiment
Can't blame them, each country was trying to find loop holes with the naval treaty and they each had their own problems.
@@hardcasekara6409 True, but the Sub was obviously top heavy and had poor sea keeping characteristics.
The British should have seized and operated all the French equipment they had, since they couldn’t trust their loyalty towards the allies……..!!!!!!
If I was running a country, I'd jail everyone who felt it was necessary to waste the country's time, space and money on this.... idiotic embarrassment.
Just wow.
Gives me more reason not to like the French.
Whoever thought this was a good idea was in the wrong committee 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Why? Do you know what a submarine is?
The design was way too top heavy, too many things could went wrong and the design sank fast
'Could went wrong'? Try....'Could GO wrong.'
Substandard design. 😂
As a nerd 55cm= about 21.7” not 22”.
Submarine built in the 1920s. Mystery solved.
My money is on the English pulling a pirate move and lying about it, my fanfiction she was converted in secret to work as spy ship,
And your conclusive evidence is…..?
@@timsytanker Its Blood fucking British Empire, they backstab you just much as anybody, because they are on an island,
an overweight unwanted foster child ,bounced from home to home then outa the house he goes,,again
This French monstrosity had everything but a McDonald's playland.
Yikes. What a stupid design
This crap boat was sooo French!
You do know what a submarine is, don't you?
What a dumb idea. What was the frogs smoking?
I mean the british did a worse one that was a complete disaster which were the M Class, they were initially armed with a single 12 inch gun.
@@hardcasekara6409 yeah but that dosnt make this idea any less stupid lol. I mean what's the plan a surface gun fight? In a sub with no armor? Can't use the guns submerged, but know what weapons are perfect for a submerged ship? A torpedo. That's why everyone else didn't put 8 inch cruiser guns on subs. It was the awser to a question no one asked lol. Like a Enduro bike. Half dirt bike half street bike. And good at neither. To heavy over built and cumbersome to hang with purpose built dirt bikes on the trail and not powerful enough or big enough to be a good street bike.
@@robertstone9988 both world wars were filled bad experiment builds like this sub, from pretty much every nation. The rapid change of tech meant that what we could build rapidly outstripped our knowledge of what we SHOULD build, and it showed. From tanks to ships to planes, there were a ton of ideas that we look back on now just think "why????", but probably seemed like good ideas at the time.
@@jameshall1300 even at the time the concept dosnt make sense. The whole point of having large navel artillery is for a surface battle, this is a subsurface war ship. The whole point of a subsurface war ship is to sneek up and fire close range torpedoes this ship dosnt have many torpedoes. Its like putting wheels on a battleship instead of just having a tank. Or a bike with 4 wheels and a auto body. We don't need a sub with 8 inch guns we have cruisers for that and we don't need cruisers that can submerge and attack with torpedoes cause they have subs for that.
@@robertstone9988 subs at that time didn't fight submerged, so its not as crazy as it looks today. Submerging was a very short term thing only used to sneak in, sneak out, or escape. Even torpedos were fired while surfaced, and they took a long time to reload, assuming the sub even had reloads available. Having a gun available with nearly the same punch that takes much smaller reloads probably looked attractive.
Probably raised its white flag first, then disappeared……
What was the intended purpose of the submarine? If the guns couldn't traverse then they wouldn't be much good against ships however, if they intended to use it against sea ports etc, then it might well of been worthwhile. If a single gun was placed inside the main hull of the submarine with a large hatch to fire through then the gun could of been made watertight and the submarine wouldn't of been so top heavy. If aiming at towns and ports then accuracy wouldn't be as important. It's easy to look back and criticise ideas that didn't work out but current submarines are equipped with missiles to attack land targets and the Surcouf seems to be an experiment in that direction but just limited by the technology of it's time.