I have a copy of the Order of Service, which tells us the Scholars sang Alexandrina and Edwardus. Presumably the next one will be Camilla and Carolus; the one after that, Catharina and Gulielmus.
In Parry’s handwritten score, the words were ‘Vivat Regina Alexandra’. You can see a glimpse of it here: ruclips.net/video/Tx3UINh4xIc/видео.html at 34:47 or purchase a facsimile from the Royal College of Music. Several papers reporting on the event (‘The Guardian’ and ‘The Otago Witness’) also noted that the words followed that score, as can be seen here: www.newspapers.com/newspage/257995258/ and here: paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW19020813.2.109 Perhaps there was a misunderstanding when the Order of Service was printed?
@@MarvinClarence I do not know. One possibility is the Westminster-ization of the pronunciation; another thought is the powers that be recalled Queen Victoria's first name was Alexandrina and perhaps that sounded more Latin to their ears! Whatever, when the Order of Service was printed for the Abbey, it read, 'Regina Alexandrina and Rex Edwardus', neither correct by the standards of classical Latin. Which makes me wonder if they will opt for Wilhelmus rather than Gulielmus in the fullness of time!
Marvin, thanks so much for sharing this excellent video! I was wondering if you might have the full coronation music for King George VI in May 1937. I would love to hear it. Thanks again!
Hi! That happens to be one of the videos currently planned, but it’s a priority for you, I suggest you look up the RUclips channel ‘George V’. There is a playlist there for what you are looking for.
I am curious as to whether the acclamations for Edward VII and Alexandra were actually in ecclesiastical Latin in the actual ceremony, as it was in this recreation. I (as an American) was quite bemused the first time I heard the Vivat Elizabetha in Anglicized Latin. I recently posted about this on FB, and a friend in Britain said that until my post he never realized there was another pronunciation!
The acclamations were most likely in Anglicised Latin at the Coronation of King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra. What I should like to find out, however, is whether or not the Anglicised Latin pronunciation was used before Parry’s setting of ‘I was Glad’. Previous settings did not incorporate the acclamation into the song, so using what pronunciation did the Scholars of Westminster School shout?
@@MarvinClarence From what I understand, Anglicized Latin was used by English speakers until the late 19th/early 20th centuries, so I'd assume that acclamations before Parry's 1902 work would also use the traditional English pronunciation...but I have no background in this and that's a wild guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@MarvinClarence Parry was educated at a public school (Eton) from 1861 to 1867. Anglicised latin pronunciation was taught at the major public schools until the early years of the 20th century. The scholars at Westminster School continue to this day to use this pronunciation for specific occasions and it is actually termed "Westminster pronunciation". As "ecclesiastical latin" (Italianate) pronunciation had not yet been universally adopted worldwide for religious texts even by the Roman Catholic church (1904) and authentic latin pronunciation not yet established in education in the UK, you can be certain that "Vivat regina Alexandra" was "sung" by the King's Scholars with the anglicised Westminster pronunciation. Listen to Vaughan Williams being interviewed in an old recording about his work on the English Hymnal and you will hear him using anglicised latin pronunciation for the name of an ancient plainsong melody, the "tonus peregrinus". He was educated at Charterhouse in the 1880s. In Britten's "Turn of the Screw" (written on the 1950s), the canticle from Morning Prayer parodied by Miles is the "Benedicite", pronounced "Benni-dye-city".
I think they are recreations crafted around E2R's 1953 setting. Because there is a long interlude between the vivat regina and rex during the actual ceremony, before 2023 at least. Imagine the terror as Geroge VI felt upon crowning as King Emperor, taking responsibility for the lives of millions of people. That's probably why they are all shaking during the crowning, they know what that requires of a person. The more I learn of the Royals the worse I feel for them, to be King you must know all the social rules for the highest of high classes of people as well as the impoverished and be able to mend these two sides of society that hate each other into the fabric of the nation. All while being powerless in government.
I believe Ecclesiastical Latin was not used at his Coronation, however, I was not able to find another recreation of King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra’s ‘vivats’.
It’s funny that the pronunciation of “vivat” started as “vee-vat” but then changed to “viy-vat.” One wonders why, bc the former Latin pronunciation is correct!
There is no correct latin pronunciation. Every country pronounced it differently and no one pronounced it the way the Romans did - "wee-wat". Pius X dictated that Italian pronunciation should be used by the Roman Catholic Church two years after "I was glad" was written for a C of E coronation! You'll still here germanised latin pronunciation in central Europe.
@@MrBulky992You are absolutely correct. Though, even in the Church, Italian pronunciation never took over everywhere. I knew old Boston priests who pronounced their Latin in the way they pronounced “Boston English.” You can hear Cardinal Cushing doing so at JFK’s funeral as well.
Vivat Regina Alexandra! Vivat Rex Eduardus! Vivat Regina Maria! Vivat Rex Georgius! Vivat Regina Elizabetha! Vivat Rex Rex Georgius! Vivat Regina Elizabetha! Vivat Regina Camilla! Vivat Rex Carolus! Vivat Regina Katharina! Vivat Rex Gulielmus! Vivat Rex Georgius!
Well, Queen Elizabeth recently passed away, so I guess we'll hear them at the upcoming coronation of King Charles III. (5/6/23) UPDATE: The new Vivats have been heard as part of the Coronation of King Charles III, with the King and Queen's respective Latin names being mentioned for the first time since the days of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.
I have wondered why the latinaized name of Elizabeth is "Elizabetha" instead of 'Isabella" maybe? As most latin speaking countries refer to her as Reina Isabel II
No, but a rather long fanfare as heard at the Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth. You can search the full version on RUclips (it has been cut in this video for brevity).
Good spot. Up until the 20th century, the name "Maria" was always pronounced as "Mariah" in English or Anglo-Latin (likewise "Sophia" was "So-FYE-ah"). Then it was eclipsed by the pronunciation we're now more familiar with, "ma-REE-ah", which was already used in Italian Church Latin and as an everyday name in Italian- and Spanish-speaking countries. As with the pronunciation of "vivat", the choir is deliberately using the traditional Anglo-Latin pronunciation.
No. The title of ‘King’ is traditionally perceived to be higher than that of ‘Queen’, so if the style of ‘King Consort’ was given, it may have given the impression that the late Duke of Edinburgh had the higher authority.
RARE British Silver Jubilee Song - Let Us Sing unto Their Majesties: ruclips.net/video/w6A2AebGq6E/видео.html
Several generations of church musicians have been waiting our whole lives for this moment!
and generations of King's Scholars missed the opportunity for 70 years. 4 coronations happened between 1900 and 1953, then nothing until may 2023
This was the best part of the coronation. Queen Elizabeth's one was really passionate no doubt it contributed to her longevity.
For me the most melodious version of the Vivat is that of Queen Alexandra
George VI's vivats started a bit early. Of all of them, Elizabeth II's vivats sounded the most passionate and roarous.
and sure enough of these 4 her reign was the longest; those vivats surely felt like a presage of such.
Vivat Elizabetha is the most pleasant to hear. The syllables fit the rhythm.
Thanks for posting. I have waiting all my life to hear Alexandra & EVII. Great.
God Bless You.
I have a copy of the Order of Service, which tells us the Scholars sang Alexandrina and Edwardus. Presumably the next one will be Camilla and Carolus; the one after that, Catharina and Gulielmus.
In Parry’s handwritten score, the words were ‘Vivat Regina Alexandra’. You can see a glimpse of it here: ruclips.net/video/Tx3UINh4xIc/видео.html at 34:47 or purchase a facsimile from the Royal College of Music. Several papers reporting on the event (‘The Guardian’ and ‘The Otago Witness’) also noted that the words followed that score, as can be seen here: www.newspapers.com/newspage/257995258/ and here: paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW19020813.2.109
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding when the Order of Service was printed?
@@MarvinClarence I do not know. One possibility is the Westminster-ization of the pronunciation; another thought is the powers that be recalled Queen Victoria's first name was Alexandrina and perhaps that sounded more Latin to their ears! Whatever, when the Order of Service was printed for the Abbey, it read, 'Regina Alexandrina and Rex Edwardus', neither correct by the standards of classical Latin. Which makes me wonder if they will opt for Wilhelmus rather than Gulielmus in the fullness of time!
0:11 Edward VII & Alexandria
1:45 George V & Mary
3:03 George VI & Elizabeth
4:46 Elizabeth II
VIVAT REGINA CAMILLA! VIVAT REX CAROLVS!
I've never seen a Queen more "Queenly" than Elizabeth II she really was chosen by god. A goddess in her own right. Absolutely glorious.
where did you find the ecclesastical latin pronunciation audio? is there any other recording that uses them?
Honestly the coronation of king Charles is my favorite thing to watch this year💓
Marvin, thanks so much for sharing this excellent video! I was wondering if you might have the full coronation music for King George VI in May 1937. I would love to hear it. Thanks again!
Hi! That happens to be one of the videos currently planned, but it’s a priority for you, I suggest you look up the RUclips channel ‘George V’. There is a playlist there for what you are looking for.
@@MarvinClarence Thank you!
Just uploaded the full coronation broadcast, if you haven't found it elsewhere already
@@georgev9170 Awesome! Thank you! 😀
Can you update this please?
I am curious as to whether the acclamations for Edward VII and Alexandra were actually in ecclesiastical Latin in the actual ceremony, as it was in this recreation. I (as an American) was quite bemused the first time I heard the Vivat Elizabetha in Anglicized Latin. I recently posted about this on FB, and a friend in Britain said that until my post he never realized there was another pronunciation!
The acclamations were most likely in Anglicised Latin at the Coronation of King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra.
What I should like to find out, however, is whether or not the Anglicised Latin pronunciation was used before Parry’s setting of ‘I was Glad’. Previous settings did not incorporate the acclamation into the song, so using what pronunciation did the Scholars of Westminster School shout?
@@MarvinClarence From what I understand, Anglicized Latin was used by English speakers until the late 19th/early 20th centuries, so I'd assume that acclamations before Parry's 1902 work would also use the traditional English pronunciation...but I have no background in this and that's a wild guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@MarvinClarence Parry was educated at a public school (Eton) from 1861 to 1867. Anglicised latin pronunciation was taught at the major public schools until the early years of the 20th century.
The scholars at Westminster School continue to this day to use this pronunciation for specific occasions and it is actually termed "Westminster pronunciation".
As "ecclesiastical latin" (Italianate) pronunciation had not yet been universally adopted worldwide for religious texts even by the Roman Catholic church (1904) and authentic latin pronunciation not yet established in education in the UK, you can be certain that "Vivat regina Alexandra" was "sung" by the King's Scholars with the anglicised Westminster pronunciation.
Listen to Vaughan Williams being interviewed in an old recording about his work on the English Hymnal and you will hear him using anglicised latin pronunciation for the name of an ancient plainsong melody, the "tonus peregrinus". He was educated at Charterhouse in the 1880s. In Britten's "Turn of the Screw" (written on the 1950s), the canticle from Morning Prayer parodied by Miles is the "Benedicite", pronounced "Benni-dye-city".
Were there actual recordings from the time of edward & george v? The quality is very good.
I think they are recreations crafted around E2R's 1953 setting. Because there is a long interlude between the vivat regina and rex during the actual ceremony, before 2023 at least. Imagine the terror as Geroge VI felt upon crowning as King Emperor, taking responsibility for the lives of millions of people. That's probably why they are all shaking during the crowning, they know what that requires of a person. The more I learn of the Royals the worse I feel for them, to be King you must know all the social rules for the highest of high classes of people as well as the impoverished and be able to mend these two sides of society that hate each other into the fabric of the nation. All while being powerless in government.
Was there a reason why Ecclesiastical Latin was used for King Edward VII's coronation? If so, what was it?
I believe Ecclesiastical Latin was not used at his Coronation, however, I was not able to find another recreation of King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra’s ‘vivats’.
@@MarvinClarence Thanks for this clarification :)
It’s funny that the pronunciation of “vivat” started as “vee-vat” but then changed to “viy-vat.” One wonders why, bc the former Latin pronunciation is correct!
The former is incorrect in the case of Parry’s ‘I was Glad’, as Anglicised Latin is generally used in songs within the Church of England.
@@MarvinClarence So does that mean they'll pronounce "Camilla" as "Camellia"?
@@NWRCB I would imagine they'll just pronounce it as Camilla, if it were Latin I would assume Cam-I-la
There is no correct latin pronunciation. Every country pronounced it differently and no one pronounced it the way the Romans did - "wee-wat". Pius X dictated that Italian pronunciation should be used by the Roman Catholic Church two years after "I was glad" was written for a C of E coronation! You'll still here germanised latin pronunciation in central Europe.
@@MrBulky992You are absolutely correct. Though, even in the Church, Italian pronunciation never took over everywhere. I knew old Boston priests who pronounced their Latin in the way they pronounced “Boston English.” You can hear Cardinal Cushing doing so at JFK’s funeral as well.
Is the footage you used for Queen Elizabeth (II) available on RUclips?
Yes, it is! The source material is linked in the video description.
That's the real recording from 1902?
❤❤❤I was amazed when the children and gentle men of the royal chapel st James palace sang this part of the coronation ❤❤❤🇿🇲
We've got another one to add to the video now!
Now you can add Camilla and Carolus
VIVAT REGINA ELIZABETHA!
Vivat Regina Camilla! Vivat Rex Carolus! Vivat! Vivat! Vivat!
Vivat Regina Alexandra! Vivat Rex Eduardus!
Vivat Regina Maria! Vivat Rex Georgius!
Vivat Regina Elizabetha! Vivat Rex Rex Georgius!
Vivat Regina Elizabetha!
Vivat Regina Camilla! Vivat Rex Carolus!
Vivat Regina Katharina! Vivat Rex Gulielmus!
Vivat Rex Georgius!
How will the vivats translate for William and Catherine?
Assuming The Prince of Wales takes the Regnal name of William V, they will likely be called Gulielmus and Catharina.
In time we shall hear:
Vivat Regina Camilla;
vivat, vivat, vivat!
Vivat Rex Carolus,
vivat, vivat, vivat!
Well, Queen Elizabeth recently passed away, so I guess we'll hear them at the upcoming coronation of King Charles III.
(5/6/23) UPDATE: The new Vivats have been heard as part of the Coronation of King Charles III, with the King and Queen's respective Latin names being mentioned for the first time since the days of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.
@@alzoraig Two more days to go!! (6 May 2023).
And so we did
We already heard! Vivat Rex Carolus
@@ronin3381 Indeed.
And it was magnificent.
I have wondered why the latinaized name of Elizabeth is "Elizabetha" instead of 'Isabella" maybe? As most latin speaking countries refer to her as Reina Isabel II
Isabella is from spain itself. And even in bible use Elizabeth
and now we can add Charles III
You should add king charles
if the king and queen process separately do we get to hear Parry's anthem twice ?
No, but a rather long fanfare as heard at the Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth. You can search the full version on RUclips (it has been cut in this video for brevity).
@@MarvinClarence thanks. All will become clear soon.
Maria sounded more like Mariah
Good spot. Up until the 20th century, the name "Maria" was always pronounced as "Mariah" in English or Anglo-Latin (likewise "Sophia" was "So-FYE-ah"). Then it was eclipsed by the pronunciation we're now more familiar with, "ma-REE-ah", which was already used in Italian Church Latin and as an everyday name in Italian- and Spanish-speaking countries. As with the pronunciation of "vivat", the choir is deliberately using the traditional Anglo-Latin pronunciation.
why didnt they vivat rex philip but did it with the other queen consorts?
Because the late Philip, Duke of Edinburgh was not a King.
@@MarvinClarence curious. Woman become queen consort, so there is no king consort?
No. The title of ‘King’ is traditionally perceived to be higher than that of ‘Queen’, so if the style of ‘King Consort’ was given, it may have given the impression that the late Duke of Edinburgh had the higher authority.
@@MarvinClarence makes sense. thank you for clarifying as well for the good video.
I think they do Vivat rex phi-lap,then Elizabeth
Could you redo this video with Camilla and Carolus as well please.
In due time!
@@MarvinClarence any progress?
1:56 Vivat Regina Mariah...Carey😂
Vivat Regina Camilla, Vivat Rex Carolus.
oh