How Bad Dialogue Ruined Thor 4

Поделиться
HTML-код
  • Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
  • Thor 4 has a dialogue problem. Go to nordvpn.com/closerlook to get 2 years of Nord with 4 months extra for free!
    Thor Love and Thunder makes a big mistake with its dialogue. In this video essay, I break down why and how they could have done better.
    I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
    My Discord Server: / discord
    Support me on Patreon: / henryboseley
    Hate me on Twitter: / henryboseley
    I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
    0:00 - Thor 4 Has A Dialogue Problem
    1:30 - Rewriting Thor 4's Dialogue
    3:09 - When A Movie Has No Subtext
    5:32 - Why Narration Is Often Boring
    8:20 - Nothing Beats Subtext At Exposition
    11:09 - The Main Reason To Use Subtext
    12:57 - Outro
    I----------------------------------------------------------------------------------I
    A massive thank you to my $10+ patrons:
    Kyong Kim
    LachFlex
    Frank D. Lemke
    [OG]
    Chefda
    Dain Bramage
    Ed Rivis
    ElizabethJustElizabeth
    Kent-Andrè Herland
    Mike Schmidt
    NStarks
    Richard Williams
    Thomas Feuer

Комментарии • 3,5 тыс.

  • @TheCloserLook
    @TheCloserLook  Год назад +1331

    If you'd like to join my Discord server where we chat about our writing, workshop ideas, and generally discuss the movies/shows we love, here's a link you can use to join.
    My Discord: discord.com/invite/aJpYPQX
    Keep writing!
    - Henry

    • @freemanallen1457
      @freemanallen1457 Год назад +5

      @The Closer Look, have you seen the new film 'Devotion' yet? Future review of that movie sometime maybe?

    • @JasmineGeminiDragon
      @JasmineGeminiDragon Год назад +1

      Okay, you make a great point and I've been hearing it. It is exquisite in fact, and very true however one thing that glared with me about the movie was the very vital and missing element. A Thor movie without the character of Loki in it, isn't really a fulfilling movie. I am probably alone in this, very likely I am. However, without Loki to play off of, Thor feels incomplete. Thor is not a good character on his own without another character to play off of, and that would be Loki. Loki missing from the film is like peanut butter missing jelly. You can have just a peanut butter sandwich, and it's fine, but without the jelly, it just doesn't snap as well as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich would

    • @colonelweird
      @colonelweird Год назад +2

      Inserting the ad read in your video essay without clearly marking it as an advert used to be cute, but it's getting really really tiresome. Please stop. Have some respect for your viewers.

    • @hugaexpl0it
      @hugaexpl0it Год назад

      Link expired.

    • @Atheismo9760
      @Atheismo9760 Год назад +1

      Feminism ruined Thor

  • @maineman5757
    @maineman5757 Год назад +7190

    It was just kind of jarring to see Christian Bale acting like his life depended on it then cut to Thor's naked buttcheeks the next scene.

    • @TheCloserLook
      @TheCloserLook  Год назад +2034

      Bale was wasted on this film.

    • @GameExplorer0115
      @GameExplorer0115 Год назад +381

      @@TheCloserLook Thor 4 is so bad. The best part about the movie ended being wasted potential.

    • @angelika9396
      @angelika9396 Год назад +49

      🤮good I didn't watch it then..

    • @AfreenSabah
      @AfreenSabah Год назад +286

      I adore the MCU, but it's depressing to see Bale join the long list of wasted talents as one time villains.

    • @Kaisar9000
      @Kaisar9000 Год назад +83

      @@AfreenSabah Bale doesn't want to waste commiting himself to MCU project, even if Thor 4 ended to be a good movie he will still be one time movie villain.

  • @SpookeyGael
    @SpookeyGael Год назад +19567

    the worst part about the narration is that it's *literally* Taika Waititi telling the audience exactly what's happening in the movie HE MADE

    • @mikeisthelunawolf
      @mikeisthelunawolf Год назад +182

      Big Leo energy there!

    • @rileyolson6008
      @rileyolson6008 Год назад +185

      It’s too anime 😂

    • @caylya7869
      @caylya7869 Год назад +711

      @@rileyolson6008 Still. Anime doesn’t really like play like play or skit. There is a bit over dramatization but not enough to take you out of it and it’s still subtle.

    • @cartersparks7580
      @cartersparks7580 Год назад +182

      I had this video playing in the background, and you’re right, it didn’t sound like korg, it’s literally taika waititi.

    • @giornogiostar3214
      @giornogiostar3214 Год назад +7

      @@rileyolson6008
      Anime has way higher standards than most of the MCU the f k you on?
      Why putting a whole medium on the same bag?

  • @AlX-Ander
    @AlX-Ander 10 месяцев назад +453

    "I want to die a warrior's death."
    "The battle's over."
    *Realization*
    "Well, come on, help me up."

    • @WIPIL69
      @WIPIL69 Месяц назад +37

      Yay bad dialogue fixed

    • @SqueakyA5
      @SqueakyA5 6 дней назад +9

      That got a laugh out of me👍

    • @adrianaslund8605
      @adrianaslund8605 7 часов назад +2

      Dying of wounds after the battle still counts.

    • @americankid7782
      @americankid7782 3 часа назад +2

      That’s actually pretty funny.

  • @allieisnothere8389
    @allieisnothere8389 Год назад +1885

    I watched an interview with Taika where he discussed his writing technique which is to write a script then put it away for two years then come back and completely rewrite it with a fresh mind and "only the good parts" from the first draft that he can recall after the two years. While watching this movie all I was thinking was how there is no way marvel would let him do that, especially with all their last minute changes and trying to fit this into the larger mcu. We've seen his other works. we know what he can do. I wonder what this movie would have looked like if he was given the time (and also not just cashing in that marvel paycheck, respectfully).

    • @LessPegasus
      @LessPegasus 10 месяцев назад +168

      He messed up a lot of the backstory for the sake of jokes. For example, korg now has two dads instead of what was mentioned in Ragnarok, all to make that Dwayne the Rock joke at the end.

    • @antona.1327
      @antona.1327 10 месяцев назад +32

      Yes, we've seen Thor Ragnajoke, an absolute abomination of a movie, which has one of the dumbest plot holes ever committed to a film, which could've been solved had anyone who was making this nonsense bothered to watch the first Thor movie, and then on top of that have character assassinated Thor beyond repair.

    • @theroyaljules39
      @theroyaljules39 6 месяцев назад +105

      @@antona.1327chill out bro you’re under every comment talking shit on Thor ragnarok. It’s just a movie. It can’t hurt you

    • @GothamClive
      @GothamClive 6 месяцев назад +4

      @@LessPegasus Racknarock was the story from Thor's point of view. This was from Korg's point of view.

    • @lindus9201
      @lindus9201 6 месяцев назад +44

      @@antona.1327 Thor ragnarok saved the thor franchise, best thor movie with good balance of fun and being serious, but sadly followed by the worst movie.

  • @JackBarlowStudios
    @JackBarlowStudios Год назад +7815

    In the words of Futurama, “You can’t just have your characters say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!”

    • @Ciscohm
      @Ciscohm Год назад +105

      Glad someone said it

    • @byronsenior6499
      @byronsenior6499 Год назад +88

      But what if the character IS someone who's openly emotive?

    • @nuberiffic
      @nuberiffic Год назад +58

      The music's bad and you should feel bad!

    • @jakegriffin6360
      @jakegriffin6360 Год назад +18

      I WANT MY HANDS BACK

    • @KateCat420
      @KateCat420 Год назад +214

      @@byronsenior6499 Then thats fine, but it needs to be consistent. This same character can't turn around and suddenly stop talking about emotions when it's convenient, yknow? Thor was established as the sort of character who doesn't talk about his emotions, so that's why people are mad now that he's gone back on that

  • @claytonrios1
    @claytonrios1 Год назад +9387

    Not to mention how the jokes basically overshadowed literally everything in the story. Which sucks because you can tell that Christian Bale and Natalie Portman are trying to make this story work. But it just can't.

    • @TheCloserLook
      @TheCloserLook  Год назад +1139

      Yeah, I did consider making that the main angle, but everyone's already pointed it out so I wanted to say something different

    • @liamphibia
      @liamphibia Год назад +463

      They nerfed Christian Bale.

    • @sanderfondse3329
      @sanderfondse3329 Год назад +165

      @@liamphibia I wanted more of him. Still good performance. For me this makes it better than Thor 2 with that desastrous Malikith.

    • @stringer2295
      @stringer2295 Год назад +133

      I would have loved to see Christian Bale in a more serious take on the story

    • @evilolivias
      @evilolivias Год назад +216

      it also doesn't help that most of the jokes were kinda bad. like the screaming goats made me audibly groan in the theater

  • @lostmarimo
    @lostmarimo Год назад +747

    honestly they could have had korg talk about how thor and the guardians went on amazing adventures and talk to us about how it was super fun and epic but what we actually see on screen is Thor getting more and more sad. could have been a cool little thing about how korg idolizes Thor and didn't even realize that Thor was feeling down etc

    • @fae_the_gay27
      @fae_the_gay27 6 месяцев назад +57

      yes!! parallel structure can be just as telling as a point-blank statement. i think that having something that contrasting would have been wonderful

    • @bouncybubble
      @bouncybubble Месяц назад +6

      Wait a second you are an absolute genius

    • @VoVina111
      @VoVina111 10 дней назад +5

      wow that's a great idea! that would've been amazing writing as we go from smiling to start feeling something off and then feeling more uncomfortable by the two different messages. The gradual lead up to that understanding would've been fantastic

  • @davidl.williams6776
    @davidl.williams6776 9 месяцев назад +454

    As a screenwriter I can tell you there's a real chance the writers originally had these scenes closer to what you describe, but a studio exec may have asked them to bring those emotional sentiments out more, to make them obvious. Removing the subtext may have addressed that note and made the execs happy.

    • @GothamClive
      @GothamClive 6 месяцев назад +7

      As a fan, I say this is Korg's point of view. He sees things fom his point of view. Let's start a revolution.

    • @zerox020
      @zerox020 5 месяцев назад +2

      Hopefully the Sequel is the same movie but 'What Actually Happened'.@@GothamClive

    • @Byronic19134
      @Byronic19134 27 дней назад +2

      This video annoys me because he starts by asking if a Space Pirate and an Asguardian Gods dialogue sounds like something you would hear normal people say and the answer is a resounding, NO, of course not they are not normal people. Thor’s world has always been one of thespian dialogue while GOTG are just quirky and out there.

    • @samuelmutia9608
      @samuelmutia9608 4 дня назад +4

      @@Byronic19134 but Starlord is indeed human. We've seen him do subtle stuff in other movies, so why not here? Thor on the other hand is somewhat understandable with your argument, but the Russo brothers still made his lines and delivery good with his somewhat awkward shakespearean way of talking in infinity war.

  • @keleynal4424
    @keleynal4424 Год назад +9873

    I think the writers and Taika are aware of this. I think they find characters over explaining things awkwardly hilarious and they are doing it on purpose. The problem is they treat EVERYTHING as a joke, so when the time comes to deliver actual drama or emotion, it fails. Ragnorok balanced this mix much better.

    • @angelinalilliepad
      @angelinalilliepad Год назад +139

      I agree.

    • @Natta44
      @Natta44 Год назад +891

      The Sif scene really takes the biscuit. Your life long friend is dying and you say 'hate to break it to you...but you're not going to Valhalla because you need to die like this, lol' now compare that to when Loki died or Odin or anyone else important to him did. This movie is such a parody.

    • @trolar1
      @trolar1 Год назад +133

      Exactly. I think Taika made the film like this on purpose. I guess we will know in the future, the next time we see Thor in an MCU Movie.

    • @shironasama0445
      @shironasama0445 Год назад +228

      You all are really giving Ragnarok a lot of credit, when it did a lot of the same shit Love and Thunder did. It was Ragnarok’s success that led to this, just reminding you.

    • @keleynal4424
      @keleynal4424 Год назад +286

      @@shironasama0445 it did do a lot of the same things, it just did them well. Taika deserved another shot, but he had a miss here. I guess we can’t all be James Gunn.

  • @Narmatonia
    @Narmatonia Год назад +3773

    It feels like Taika thought the idea of characters saying what they feel out loud was really funny, and it can be funny in something that is explicitly parody like Naked Gun, or as a one-off joke for a character like Drax. But for some reason he decided to have all the characters talk like this the entire movie, and it really didn't work.
    It just struck me that for me, the funniest part of the movie is Stormbreaker, the one "character" that can't speak, the way it just floats into the shot while Thor is gazing at Mjolnir, is way funnier than any of the dialogue.

    • @typhonviserys8288
      @typhonviserys8288 Год назад +250

      "You can't have characters just say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"

    • @junjidiot
      @junjidiot Год назад +177

      Yeah I was gonna say the same thing. I feel like he thinks it’s funny for them to be “self aware” and explicitly state the themes of the movie which it can be but it wasn’t done well here

    • @jamespwalter13
      @jamespwalter13 Год назад +15

      That’s exactly it

    • @funguy398
      @funguy398 Год назад +56

      Gods being able to break the fourth wall and change the narrative by hitting Waititi in the nuts could be a way to make silly movie, but they mesh too much genre and it just didn't work

    • @caralho5237
      @caralho5237 Год назад +64

      @@typhonviserys8288 Great way to jeopardize the serious parts of the story: Have the characters behave comically all the time

  • @Panzer_the_Merganser
    @Panzer_the_Merganser Год назад +126

    Rocket’s scene with Thor in ‘Infinity War’ where they talk about what Thor’s been through and his chances against Thanos is perfect: Somber, has subtext, and has character development. Plus it ends with the fake eye bit which nicely cuts the tension.

  • @ozoak
    @ozoak Год назад +478

    Great nod to Wall-e. It's almost a polar opposite to the Thor film, it manages to convey so much through expression and context where so much of the movie is dialogue free. Imagine Taika had access to just a 10th of the skill of those writers.

    • @benl.4577
      @benl.4577 10 месяцев назад +23

      And it's expressions THROUGH ROBOTS

    • @aryankumar7283
      @aryankumar7283 9 месяцев назад +16

      He does watch jojoba rabbit he just couldn't care less about this movie

    • @Vesdus
      @Vesdus 7 месяцев назад +20

      Taika is skilled - I would blame this failure on Disney/Marvel execs.

    • @ozoak
      @ozoak 7 месяцев назад +4

      @@Vesdus what a weird take. This film reeks of Waititi from start to finish, it's all him, it's just...bad. There is history in cinema of films being released that the directors hate the final edit for, this is not one of those films.

    • @happyllama1160
      @happyllama1160 6 месяцев назад +7

      @@ozoakI think it’s a combination of both. He does have talent, when he’s placed in the right work environment where he has time to work out the kinks, and other people to stop him when he goes too far. Jojo Rabbit is incredible and What We Do in the Shadows is really very funny, he can create good work, but he isn’t a good fit for Marvel. Marvel need writers who can write a first draft and make it into an instant product. He definitely isn’t one of those.

  • @Future_Doggo
    @Future_Doggo Год назад +2132

    I also hate how every other line in most modern MCU movies has to be a joke. Completely kills the mood in serious and emotional scenes.

    • @eloryosnak4100
      @eloryosnak4100 Год назад +78

      Also... Disney in general

    • @hunterprice3320
      @hunterprice3320 Год назад +209

      That's something I loved about No Way Home and Wakanda Forever is that when it needed to get serious it was. There were definitely still jokes but not the gratuitous amount that some mcu movies have had and it didn't make the serious scenes cheapened in my opinion.

    • @scalpingsnake
      @scalpingsnake Год назад +43

      I feel like this is more of a Thor problem after the 2nd movie. They wanted a complete tonal shift I guess.

    • @jvjjjvvv9157
      @jvjjjvvv9157 Год назад +6

      It is a creative choice. To hear someone criticize this movie because the characters don't talk like real people (like the video's author does) is pretty stupid because THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE. I mean, it's a choice that the screenwriters have made. To make everyone sound over the top silly and 'funny', yet still in line with what their characters are. You may not like this choice, I certainly don't love any Marvel movies, but I doubt it would work better for me to have silly cartoonish characters meant for children have real, grounded emotional dramas. I don't see 'serious' scenes working dramatically no matter what they do, so simply not going that route seems like one reasonable creative choice.

    • @edd542
      @edd542 Год назад +77

      @@jvjjjvvv9157 if you ever saw these cartoons as a kid thry absolutely got very serious at times. thor was an absolute badass in the cartoons and seeing him in a live action he is just some silly guy is annoying af

  • @chromejaeger
    @chromejaeger Год назад +3552

    The worst thing is that Taika has explicitly stated how campy, silly, and unrealistic the dialogues sounded in Thor comics, and wanted to make them sound more like 'normal people'. Look where we are now...💀💀💀

    • @ariwhitchurch3769
      @ariwhitchurch3769 Год назад +183

      Because taika thinks the old Norse talk that Thor fans love is silly and unrealistic.

    • @ImKarl
      @ImKarl Год назад +66

      *inserts Thanos monologue about failures coming back to him*

    • @BiBiren
      @BiBiren Год назад +177

      Why Thor was humorous in first two movies is that it made sense: He is oblivious to the customs of (modern) Earth as an Asgardian, he speaks in a more eloquent and outlandish way. The third movie doesn't make any sense for his character.
      The thing is, Thor isn't supposed to be 'normal' like us. He is Asgardian ffs.

    • @ariwhitchurch3769
      @ariwhitchurch3769 Год назад +6

      @@BiBiren yah fr, I agree

    • @sarveshbane1718
      @sarveshbane1718 Год назад +38

      @@BiBiren yeah actually I'm glad I'm not alone, coz I was the one who loved the character since I like norse mythology a lot and until infinity war and ragnarok nobody I knew liked him, still I think infinity war did way better job than ragnarok and endgame to portray a great thor and lets just not talk about love and thunder

  • @Mwasl07w
    @Mwasl07w 11 месяцев назад +111

    I actually really loved how you fixed the dialogue and the scene between Thor and Peter, other than it just made it look better, but also we got to see the guardians bonding even more which I love so much since they are my favorite found family

  • @lacountess
    @lacountess Год назад +108

    For a great example of working-for-your-meal dialogue, watch Better Call Saul. I’m watching season six and I’m in awe at how many times characters warp dialogue and fake emotions to manipulate each other. It’s such a fun game to guess why they are saying or doing things and what their endgame is. And when it comes, it’s so satisfying.

  • @filipvadas7602
    @filipvadas7602 Год назад +3899

    The saddest part is that beneath all the forced humor, there is a genuenly good story. But they wasted Hemsworth, Bale and Portman, who are genuenly trying to make the script work
    In fact, Hemsworth in particular has stated his discontent in how Thor's character has been treated lately, which says a *lot*

    • @CUF17
      @CUF17 Год назад +71

      Wait...he did??? HA! Thats funny considering he kicked and screamed for this new direction for Thor and that shitty Ragnarok movie (which L&T is A LOT like so idk why ppl are having a problem with it NOW 🙄)

    • @sarveshbane1718
      @sarveshbane1718 Год назад +128

      @@CUF17 there was seriously a time when I used to love ragnarok and would've probably been in like my top 5 mcu films but I don't know anymore, my recent rewatch after watching love and thunder kinda left me feeling that this is better than love and thunder but not a lot different, love and thunder was just extreme version of what worked for mcu before, honestly I think the best thor film would still be the first thor, and ragnarok is still a good film since it has small tributes to the og score of the 1st thor, let's just forget there was a 2nd one

    • @riderchallenge4250
      @riderchallenge4250 Год назад +5

      @@CUF17 there happened iw and endgame between both movies

    • @CUF17
      @CUF17 Год назад +79

      @@sarveshbane1718 see i love the first 2 Thor movies. I loooove the Shakespeare-like drama it was with HINTS of comedic moments and it stood out from the other marvel movies. Plus i got sooo much great acting/scenes from those two movies. (Loki grieving when his mom died, thor and his father arguing etc etc)
      Ragnarok didnt give me shit but a butchered adaption of the comic storyline corny ass slapstick and unfunny ass "humor". L&T was more of the same just turned up to 100 and now im done with thor for good.

    • @filipvadas7602
      @filipvadas7602 Год назад +174

      @@CUF17 that's because he felt that Thor's character had become boring and derivitive and that Ragnarok was a nice change of pace while not sacrificing the core of his character.
      The problem is that Love & Thunder went too far in that *other direction* in that the movie feels the need to *constantly* keep throwing jokes at the wall to see what sticks
      Which, again, is a shame because underneath it all is what could have been the best Thor movie *period*

  • @parapotato
    @parapotato Год назад +3925

    The thing that really kills me was when Thor had the "what more could I possibly lose" moment and was on the verge of tears; that really hit me. I was the most intrigued I had been in years by anything in the MCU. Then the follow up we got was overweight-depressed Thor being the butt of a ton of jokes in Endgame and this movie.

    • @jturner2577
      @jturner2577 Год назад +628

      Thor Being overweight-depressed after everything he went through made sense to me, the only alternative i could realistically see him take is attempting suicide, however constantly making him the butt of jokes in Endgame was distasteful.

    • @KateCat420
      @KateCat420 Год назад +387

      @@jturner2577 yeah like for me, it wasn't that he was fat and depressed, I was mad that it was 'just SO funny'

    • @Icerope-km9lu
      @Icerope-km9lu Год назад +194

      Thanks for pointing that out, I feel like Endgame got away with a LOT of dumb shit just because it was Endgame.

    • @123NERDZ
      @123NERDZ Год назад +3

      Agreed 👍

    • @sarveshbane1718
      @sarveshbane1718 Год назад +19

      @@Icerope-km9lu agreed, hell even I didn't see the flaws until my probably 5th rewatch last year, haven't been interested in a rewatch since then

  • @neilturner5211
    @neilturner5211 6 месяцев назад +10

    That Sif scene's dialogue (and actually a lot of the dialogue in the film) felt like it was taken from the parody play that Loki (as Odin) was watching in Ragnarok.

  • @flamingburritto
    @flamingburritto 3 дня назад +8

    There is a reason why "Show don't tell" is one of the biggest principles of filmmaking and story telling.

  • @MrWaffleman262
    @MrWaffleman262 Год назад +1908

    Its just confusing why movies nowadays feel the need to verbally explain thoughts and feelings instead of having people think and infer them for themselves instead

    • @herb_rolls3929
      @herb_rolls3929 Год назад +134

      This comment has got me thinking, maybe it's because of the quantity of media we are consuming? We are more used to being fed information at rapid speeds and are seeing more media than we used to. So many people walked away from Jordan Peele's Nope, not understanding why the Gordy storyline existed. They weren't used to having to think during a movie, play detective, draw connections, aka work for their media. I was left investigating Nope for weeks because I don't consume movies often, and I also deleted my social media. I had nothing new to fill the thought gap and spur me onwards, so I was left to ponder.
      It could also have something to do with our lack of nuance nowadays because of political strife and division. Maybe writers are scared of audiences not getting the joke if it's too subtle or not understanding character arcs if they aren't clearly evil and good.

    • @OcrimMirco
      @OcrimMirco Год назад +96

      There are many reasons:
      1) It's easier. Writing subtext requires basically writing two dialogues at once.
      2) It's faster. You do not have to think too hard about it and in a month you git the script down so people can start filming and in about a year you got a movie
      3) You make sure the audience doesn't get confused. Have you ever seen a movie and had to rewatch a scene because you didn't understand why characters were doing what they were doing? That is when a writer wants to add subtext but goes overboard and forgets to tell the audience important things.

    • @elmaxidelsur
      @elmaxidelsur Год назад

      Because they actively hate the audience, they think all are dumb white racist.

    • @Duothimir
      @Duothimir Год назад +61

      @@OcrimMirco I've seen some hot takes that Arcane's character motivations make no sense, so I think I see why so many screenwriters just blatantly spell it out, sadly.

    • @Foggfjw
      @Foggfjw Год назад +38

      Maybe it's the anime influence. I have always the feeling in anime it's extremly common.

  • @RebeRants
    @RebeRants Год назад +1742

    For me the best written subtext dialogue in film is from Up. When Russell and Carl are by the campfire and Russel is opening up just a little about his dad, he say "Phyllis says I bug him too much". Carl immediately chastises "You call your mother by her first name?" And Russell replies, confused "Phyllis isn't my mom." And that's it. We never get anything further, but that's all we need to hear. That's what Thor 4 doesn't understand.

    • @ea6102
      @ea6102 Год назад +269

      Pixar is amazing with subtext. Incredibles, up, and finding Nemo are amazing with it

    • @lexicast2608
      @lexicast2608 Год назад +75

      I see u… fellow cinema therapy viewer…

    • @dasc0yne
      @dasc0yne Год назад +195

      Yes. Very economical writing. In such a short exchange we learn that Russell's parents are divorced, his mom has custody, that he misses his dad who he used to be close to, his dad is remarried to a woman who wants his father to have nothing to do with him anymore and that Russell naïvely doesn't get it.
      In a lot of reaction videos to Up, it is surprising how many people can't read between the lines - they think his father is just working too hard to spend time with him or something.

    • @hoangkienvu7572
      @hoangkienvu7572 Год назад +104

      @@dasc0yne honesty I don't think the piece of dialogue revealed that much. It could be that his parents divorced. Could be that his mother died. Could be that his father is too focused on his work. We don't know. But we do know for a fact that Russell doesn't have a reliable parental figure at the moment and that's enough to enjoy the movie.

    • @dasc0yne
      @dasc0yne Год назад +25

      @@hoangkienvu7572 I agree the details aren't critical, however all the information is there. If the dad was just working hard Russell would be talking about how his dad doesn't have time to spend whenever he sees him at home or that his dad comes home too late every night, but not about having to call him to talk to him. Sure, it is possible to conceive of a more convoluted scenario (e.g. Phyllis is a secretary), but Carl felt bad for Russell only when Russell said, "Phyllis isn't my mom." And that is when he stopped asking questions because he then understood the whole situation.
      Also you can see Russell's Asian mom at the end. She is the one who takes him to his promotion so he likely lives with her. Since Russell appears half-Asian I presume his dad is white. It is sad that his father didn't show up to ceremony, but Carl is there to be a paternal figure.

  • @micahblakeslee
    @micahblakeslee Год назад +111

    This is a fine line to balance when writing. Sometimes, people mistake "subtext" with being cryptic or lying all the time, which is not inherently subtext. Sometimes real people, and therefore characters, really do ask for information or honestly express how they're feeling.
    The thing with subtext is that every bit of dialogue should be doing something in addition to conveying information. Let's take a scene where somebody is trying to find a MacGuffin. If a character blandly exposits "The MacGuffin is in the warehouse on 6th Street," for the sole purpose of telling the viewer or reader where the thing is, that's boring. The same line, however, in proper context, could be quite subtextual. If an insecure character blurts out, "The MacGuffin is in the warehouse on 6th Street!" in order to try to sound impressive or knowledgeable, that tells you something about the character's desire to be seen as in-the-know and also tells the viewer where the item is.
    All of that to say that subtextual writing is relative and doesn't inherently have to be dishonest or cryptic.

    • @BuzzingMeat
      @BuzzingMeat 10 месяцев назад

      Stfu, YOU ARENT A WRITER AND YOULL NEVER BE ONE. LET THE REAL PROS WRITE.

  • @gavinmartinez9318
    @gavinmartinez9318 11 месяцев назад +6

    Having the sponsor ad at the end of the video deserves a like on its own. Great video!

  • @ajflink
    @ajflink Год назад +2251

    I remember watching this and knew that Thor is supposed to be depressed, somewhat introverted, and unsure of himself near the beginning of the movie; however, due to the script given to the actors and how Thor's actor makes it unintentionally seem like he is faking his mood. He comes across as a teenager going through puberty without the voice cracking.

    • @kujojotaro8937
      @kujojotaro8937 Год назад +57

      Yes exactly. It doesn't feel real.

    • @MsDancer256
      @MsDancer256 Год назад +10

      very true

    • @leejayson7047
      @leejayson7047 Год назад

      Yep, I was expecting a dark version of Thor during Endgame bcus I thought all of his ppl were slaughtered so he bcame "Ronin"-esque
      But they make him a punchline, ok let see what happens, then this movie is perfect........for my 10 yrs old
      Even an episode of Spongebob more interesting thn this shht
      U got mothrfckin C. Bale as a villain, come on🤦
      What a waste of talent

    • @taragnor
      @taragnor Год назад +30

      Yeah, generally in scenes where characters speak exactly as they feel without subtext, you need some kind of element that makes them break first. Examples are furious, very drunk or some similarly mentally compromised state.

    • @anthonyt219
      @anthonyt219 Год назад +15

      Yeah I couldn't even tell if thor actually had an arc. The first one may be boring for some but he did have an arc

  • @ballybunion9
    @ballybunion9 Год назад +694

    "Don't give them 4; give them 2 + 2." That's one of the best explanations of subtext I've ever heard. 👍

  • @Thunder-Chief
    @Thunder-Chief Год назад +16

    Fantastic vid, Henry! For me, the King of all Subtext would have to be Carl, from Pixar's Up. He says exactly 1 word of dialog in the first 13 minutes of the movie. Sure, he gasps, grunts, and oofs, but only says "Wow!" until the construction scene.
    Not to mention the roughly 4.5 minute dialog-free montage of his life with Ellie that makes me bawl like a baby every time I watch it. Curse you, good writing!!!

  • @thederranged8556
    @thederranged8556 10 месяцев назад +12

    The irony of that first little scene rewrite was that it genuinely felt like how the better parts of the MCU are usually written. Bits of levity with the weight of emotion heavy in the subtext.
    Or, y’know, how the DCAU is usually written.

  • @ladygenesis
    @ladygenesis Год назад +2621

    Christian Bale was too good for this movie. His acting and storytelling in the movie was so well done, if felt like every time his scenes came on I was watching a different movie.

    • @BassAndTrebleBR
      @BassAndTrebleBR 11 месяцев назад +46

      By far the best part of the whole movie

    • @altamasparsanov9181
      @altamasparsanov9181 10 месяцев назад +10

      Haha you worded my thoughts!!

    • @jppitch6734
      @jppitch6734 9 месяцев назад +61

      He made a very compelling Marvel villain and was absolutely wasted.

    • @Xehanort10
      @Xehanort10 6 месяцев назад +25

      The Gorr character felt like he was from a different movie.

    • @cheesesteakphilly
      @cheesesteakphilly 6 месяцев назад +12

      ⁠@@jppitch6734
      Huge waste of both Gorr and Bales talent.
      Now I’m hoping they don’t touch someone like Jack Nicholson, De Niro or Leo because they’ll probably just waste them.

  • @TheManofThings777
    @TheManofThings777 Год назад +3758

    I would like to say though that "fake/artificial" dialogue isn't necessarily a bad thing. Often times in Quentin Tarantino's movies people don't really talk like regular people, they're too witty, but it works in that case because everything they say is genuinely interesting/funny.
    Basically, if your dialogue isn't realistic it needs to offer something else in exchange to be worthwhile.

    • @LicoriceLain
      @LicoriceLain Год назад +143

      It helps that the writing itself in his work plays with your expectations.

    • @jaredbitz6408
      @jaredbitz6408 Год назад +96

      I have the same thoughts about Joss Whedon and Aaron Sorkin dialogue. I won't pretend for a moment that it could come from real humans, but it's still enjoyable to listen to.

    • @sarveshbane1718
      @sarveshbane1718 Год назад +18

      Also I think when it comes to love and thunder dialogue is the least of my concern coz the story itself had flaws where if you think a little bit, everything falls apart, and yes I agree artificial dialogues aren't necessarily a bad thing

    • @elenavitkovska1434
      @elenavitkovska1434 Год назад +48

      Yeah, Nolan's dialogue is very theatrical as well but I do love it

    • @diogomarques9228
      @diogomarques9228 Год назад +2

      Fr

  • @auroraishere2907
    @auroraishere2907 Год назад +10

    2:25 this feels way more like a marvel scene than how the actual movie was

  • @raecubed
    @raecubed Год назад +33

    This is a great video! I found the movie entertaining but it also felt like the entire thing was one big joke, a lot of the deeper themes were lost in it. This articulates a lot of what was off about it. I’m learning a lot about stories from this channel, thank you for all your hard work! Makes me want to really start writing again.

    • @RavenGlenn
      @RavenGlenn 10 месяцев назад

      Because it IS one big joke. It's the events as told by Korg, the big dumb and lovable goofball of a rock man that he is. The story is just as ridiculous as one should expect it to be as told by him.

    • @rootfish2671
      @rootfish2671 25 дней назад

      Yeah Waititi made the movie a comedy and only paid lip service to the God Butcher threat with a couple of lack luster action scenes that were just CGI green screen garbage. This seemed more like a superhero parody of Thor and just shows Waititi’s contempt for superheroes, the characters and above all the audience.

  • @rubenquiros4859
    @rubenquiros4859 Год назад +5326

    The script to Jojo Rabbit shows that Taika is a skilled storyteller (i.e., the buildup and the actual ‘red shoe’ scene). He was rewarded with an Oscar for his skill. That makes Love and Thunder even more disappointing since Taika has the ability to do better.

    • @delusion5867
      @delusion5867 Год назад +521

      tbh, it doesnt feel like he gave a shit this time. I love Taika's other movies when he actually cares for the project.

    •  Год назад +497

      The thing about Marvel movies is that they have to be written very fast. So there's no revisions, no second drafts - that's also why there's so much reports of huge chunks of footage being cut in the final edit.

    • @sammerry7706
      @sammerry7706 Год назад +110

      His best work imo jjr and hftw were both fairly faithfully adapted from nevels by remarkable writers, hes an excellent director but im not sure about his writing abilities really, after his god aweful mandalorian episodes too yikes, even what we do in the shadows was co written by jermain clemant

    • @mondsgesandter
      @mondsgesandter Год назад +104

      I don't think Taika is flawless, but I think disney might take some important creative freedoms from writers that shouldn't ever be taken. The short times the writers have also play a part in this. Jon Favreau is a skilled storyteller as well, but some Mando storylines feel like Jon wanted to do more with it, but had too little time to properly do it. I think disney should take a step back. The thing that made Rogue One one of the greatest Star Wars movies was that the writers were free to do whatever the hell they wanted. I think that disneys end stage capitalism essentially is what is responsible for the drops in quality. Taika is incredibly talented and Jojo Rabbit was one of the best movies I have ever seen which makes it even more sad that L&T turned out the way it is

    • @delusion5867
      @delusion5867 Год назад +37

      @@mondsgesandter I think L&T turned out bad either because disney fiddled too much or/and Taika wasn't 100% on board or interested

  • @pards64
    @pards64 Год назад +463

    This is a prime example of one of the most important rules in writing: Show, not tell.

    • @Ramsey276one
      @Ramsey276one Год назад +5

      1000% THIS

    • @moonlightshadow9390
      @moonlightshadow9390 Год назад

      i get it but hehe how can you show in writing since its words

    • @mashupotato
      @mashupotato Год назад +4

      @@moonlightshadow9390 Here's how you do it in writing.
      Tell: "He's my best friend since we were kids."
      Show: "I've been stuck with him even before my voice dropped."
      See the difference?

    • @moonlightshadow9390
      @moonlightshadow9390 Год назад

      @@mashupotato How to show with "words"
      arrange words to form a picture?XD

    • @moonlightshadow9390
      @moonlightshadow9390 Год назад +2

      @@mashupotato Nah dw I understand the point
      I just found the saying funny when I thought about it

  • @debbiecharles7912
    @debbiecharles7912 6 месяцев назад +12

    That's why I love the tv series "Lost" so much. They leave it to the audience to work it out. It was a near perfect series. They treat the audience as smart and didn't just hand you all the answers. You need to think and work it out yourself. Unfortunately there were many people that complained about not being spoon fed all the answers

    • @GothamClive
      @GothamClive 6 месяцев назад

      This movie expects the audience to work out i's Korg telling the story. He's no Shakespeare.

    • @michaelklaus
      @michaelklaus 4 месяца назад

      There were more people pointing out that Abrams and Lindelof did not have the answers after expanding the show from 3 to 6 seasons.
      The audience thought they could figure it out and stay ahead of the reveals but season 6 then suddenly diverges from what has been established in the last three seasons.
      From there you simply had to accept what the final episodes fed you.

    • @VoVina111
      @VoVina111 10 дней назад

      @@michaelklaus tbh I never understood what they meant about the magic box on the island that could offer anyone what they wanted. They mentioned it and never revisited it again lol

  • @superadambomb5834
    @superadambomb5834 Год назад +6

    I’ve written a few books before (never got any published) and this video actually taught me alot. I will try to learn the tool of subtext while writing my next storys.

  • @benquadrinaros8692
    @benquadrinaros8692 Год назад +573

    I remember in an interview Christian bale said he gets so immersed in character because if a director ever goes “ this scene is bad, we’re doing our own thing” he wants to be able to improv the dialogue on the spot. Imagine if he’d done that.

    • @boboboy8189
      @boboboy8189 Год назад +7

      you should do a research about ironman and you will know MCU won't allowed to make real movies

    • @na.meless
      @na.meless Год назад +2

      @@boboboy8189 interesting wdym

    • @JonnyEarthquake
      @JonnyEarthquake Год назад +76

      @@na.meless The original Iron Man was made without a script. They had to improvise most of it and yet it ended up being one of the best MCU movies. However as the MCU became really popular, the studio executives had more control over the films (Mickey Rourke from IM2 complained that his character was reduced to a one dimensional villain despite the fact he learned fluent Russian and researched Russian criminal mannerisms for the role).
      After Disney bought Marvel, the directors are basically hired hands. One director said that the action scenes were already shot by someone else before they even started the film and the producers wouldn't let them change anything in the script. Strangely though, Taika seems to have had complete creative freedom - the first cut of Thor 4 was four hours long.

    • @randomfactsthatdontmatter3466
      @randomfactsthatdontmatter3466 Год назад +25

      @@JonnyEarthquake can't remember who made the video but someone was explaining that although Taika is a talented director he actually needs to be kept on a leash so to speak. He can obviously make good movies. Ragnarok is a good example. But he needs to have some of that creativity in check, otherwise it runs rampant and you get a mess like this.

    • @benquadrinaros8692
      @benquadrinaros8692 Год назад

      @@JonnyEarthquake really interesting

  • @HazmatPyro
    @HazmatPyro Год назад +366

    Interesting that you brought up Andrew Stanton when talking about hiding exposition as apparently you can watch the entirety of Wall-E in an unknown language and still perfectly understand the story.
    Pretty cool

    • @UnitSe7en
      @UnitSe7en Год назад +46

      That's not hidden exposition, that's visual storytelling. Different things.

    • @HazmatPyro
      @HazmatPyro Год назад +40

      @@UnitSe7en Well filmmaking is the combination of visual and audio to tell a story. So anything is a go to hide exposition as long as it's still functionally a movie.
      Anyways it still illustrates how godly Andrew Stanton is if he manages to hide basically all of the exposition in a film.

    • @grantbmilburn
      @grantbmilburn Год назад +1

      Didn't realize Wall-E was essentially a silent movie. One advantage of the old silents tho - they had to show not tell, if they didn't want to bore audiences with a ton of intertitles.

  • @johnclements5535
    @johnclements5535 11 месяцев назад +9

    I think one problem is modern screenwriters might be less versed in dramatic history; i.e: plays. Read enough plays , and you are in a world of dialogue. it's all dialogue and subtext. They need to study the masters more. Also, a lot of mainstream comics writing isn't all that great either.

  • @606films9
    @606films9 Год назад +90

    I love how he writes one of the best dialogue exchanges I’ve seen in a while and is like “Oh, it isn’t Shakespeare”

  • @casualminecrafter4564
    @casualminecrafter4564 Год назад +829

    Sif also could have said something referencing Odin, something like ‘I’ll tell father hello’ and then a sort of anguished look crosses Thor’s face. I think something like that is more thematically appropriate when a character is on the brink of death than a *joke*

    • @HappyLarry.
      @HappyLarry. Год назад +7

      They reference Odin like we reference God, I don't think she'd call him 'father'

    • @KateCat420
      @KateCat420 Год назад +100

      @@HappyLarry. no I think they meant like, she'd say to Thor "I'll tell [YOUR] father hello" because she was taking to Thor, the son of Odin

    • @HappyLarry.
      @HappyLarry. Год назад +2

      @@grantbmilburn you don't need to explain the basics of Norse mythology to me, believe it or not I'm not just talking out of my arse. They are quite clearly not referencing him in the way he is called All-Father, they are talking in a biological sense. If they had literally used All-Father in the comment I wouldn't be responding would I?

    • @LicoriceLain
      @LicoriceLain Год назад +32

      @@KateCat420 Or 'All Father'

    • @rdwn1999
      @rdwn1999 Год назад +28

      @@HappyLarry. Suddenly playing victim lol

  • @zacharylong939
    @zacharylong939 Год назад +1438

    As someone who’s been studying screenwriting for nearly a decade now, almost all of Marvel needs to reevaluate their approach to writing. The problem they have is that they intend to craft scenes around jokes or absurd/awkward moments. That’s not how you write a proper story, and that’s why they’ve fallen short in the emotional aspect of their stories in recent years. Your first draft in any story should work to ensure that the film’s plot is strong enough to carry out all character arcs, subplots, etc. to fruition. From there, your second draft adds more personality to the characters and fine-tunes any interactions so that those arcs, subplots, etc. are strengthened. Then your final revisions should deal with making sure that those moments you just strengthened still allow the story to flow properly. No portion of this film should have been focused on making a joke, especially since so much of it lacked in real character development as well.

    • @lordsnow8438
      @lordsnow8438 Год назад +6

      Cheers for that story

    • @lluewhyn
      @lluewhyn Год назад +50

      There are so many times I watch movies these days where I feel like I'm watching a first draft. You watch a scene that you swear was supposed to be a "placeholder" to get from point A to point C, but then they never went back and rewrote a polished point B scene.

    • @philippschwarz4539
      @philippschwarz4539 Год назад +25

      Early MCU did subtext well, but new MCU isn't the same. I lost interest after Endgame.

    • @applicationpostgraduate7507
      @applicationpostgraduate7507 Год назад +3

      May I ask what you are doing now though… I always wanted to write stories but feel terrified ….

    • @rebeccahicks2392
      @rebeccahicks2392 Год назад +9

      @@applicationpostgraduate7507 If it makes you feel better, you're under no obligation to show your writing to anyone else. Just have fun with it.

  • @lwctheory
    @lwctheory 9 месяцев назад +10

    I think it is a trope in many movies that characters kinda drop their personalities during a dramatic moment, and have this weird dramatic sentimental personality that makes them seem like they're schizophrenic or that another character is talking through them. If they had dialogue and behavior during those scenes, that kept in line more with the personality that had been carefully established beforehand, then it might be way less stilted and even more expansive and a stretching of their personality to see how they would uniquely react to a dramatic or climactic moment.

  • @techstorezombie9316
    @techstorezombie9316 5 месяцев назад +3

    The narration in the movie literally sounds like a person reading a children's story book, like the next line will be "and they all lived happily ever after, the end."

  • @escapefromtibet2530
    @escapefromtibet2530 Год назад +758

    I love how you not only critique things but actually always add your own (better) version. That's how it should always be done

    • @TheCloserLook
      @TheCloserLook  Год назад +96

      Thanks, glad you like it!

    • @Selrisitai
      @Selrisitai Год назад +24

      Examples, I have started to say, are the life of an essay or disquisition.

    • @falfires
      @falfires Год назад +18

      @@TheCloserLook Putting 'constructive' in constructive criticism!

    • @carolina-if1kd
      @carolina-if1kd Год назад +17

      Exactly! Not enough review channels do this!! It might be fun to pick apart a movie and point out everything that’s wrong, but it takes thought and skill to actually give a genuine critique and provide solutions. You have to say, “This is how I would have done it, given the chance.” And then you explain why.

    • @One.Zero.One101
      @One.Zero.One101 Год назад +3

      @@TheCloserLook I also love that you give examples of other projects who did it right. That way we the audience can examine why we liked one thing and didn't like the other.

  • @ulmerbrothers2076
    @ulmerbrothers2076 Год назад +464

    It's really sad cause the characters and emotions and compelling story is right within reach. It just seems that Taika wasn't really trying. It's the frustrating mishandling of great stories that has plagued phase 4.

    • @Unstablegroundz
      @Unstablegroundz Год назад +31

      I wouldn't say its necessarily a matter of taika not trying, so much as him being rushed. Taika has always had the same process, write the script, abandon it for a year or so, come back to it, say "who wrote this?" And rewrite it entirely. It's a whole process. While it's super possible he had the time, I heard him talk about editing thor 4 on set the set of our flag means death, still in costume. It's very possible we skipped the "who wrote this?" Step whole sale

    • @jasonblalock4429
      @jasonblalock4429 Год назад +21

      There must have been something huge that happened behind the scenes to mess up the production. *Everything* about Love & Thunder felt so sloppy. Like he mentioned in the video, there are some awful dialogue edits, and also some equally bad visual edits or obvious missing/cut scenes. Plus the over-reliance on narration to carry the story. A well-planned film doesn't look like this.

  • @calelkestifer3570
    @calelkestifer3570 6 месяцев назад +2

    4:30 I honestly think a combination between what was in the movie and your proposal would have been best for having the joke. "Leave me to die my warrior's death.... I wish to claim my place in Valhalla."
    Also thank you for making this argument from the angle of subtext rather than using the phrase "show don't tell" because like... sometimes you do need to be told things. Remembering that subtext is a thing promotes a balance, and that's real nice.

  • @goat9295
    @goat9295 14 дней назад +3

    What bothers me the most is the lack of sincerity. Everything seems like one big joke. Nothing meant to be taken seriously. Even when the lines are good, they're ruined by them not delivering it seriously.

  • @abhineetkunne6172
    @abhineetkunne6172 Год назад +276

    I'm not going to lie, this movie has way more problems than just bad dialogue. But it was nice that you pointed it out.
    I just hope this movie doesn't impede Christian Bale's reputation in any way.

    • @ea6102
      @ea6102 Год назад +56

      I doubt it will, bale is an accomplished actor and he was easily the best part of the movie

    • @ShadowKamehameha32
      @ShadowKamehameha32 Год назад +16

      Bale as Gorr was one the best things about Love and Thunder, so I wouldn't worry too much

    • @sarveshbane1718
      @sarveshbane1718 Год назад +8

      Yeah right I'm like this movie's dialogues are the least of my problems and I think christian bale is one of those actors who've proved themselves already even a project worse than love and thunder won't have an effect in his reputation, it's like de niro doing that stupid grandpa film, I'm sure nobody thought of him as any less of an actor

    • @abhineetkunne6172
      @abhineetkunne6172 Год назад

      @@ea6102 You're probably right.

    • @imaginefun13
      @imaginefun13 Год назад +9

      Pretty much every review of this movie praises his acting as the best part of the movie, so I'd say he's alright. It's to the point that it feels like he's in a completely different movie altogether.

  • @aisadal2521
    @aisadal2521 Год назад +229

    Dialogue is the one thing I always make sure to spend a lot of time on; my story might not be expertly crafted, but you can guarantee that the conversations will always feel natural!

  • @TimmyMcGowan
    @TimmyMcGowan 5 месяцев назад +4

    holy shit that first dialogue exchange between Thor and Quill was straight out of Riverdale

  • @seagullad27
    @seagullad27 11 месяцев назад +2

    0:30 I was convinced that that was the joke though, that Thor speaks really formally and dramatically whilst Peter is trying to mimic his way of speaking in order to seem as cool as him

  • @ryzigg7187
    @ryzigg7187 Год назад +685

    Don’t you think that opening scene could’ve been even more impactful if Star Lord was Rocket ?
    Since they’ve already had this type of conversation before in infinity war
    It’d be interesting if after everything with Thanos to establish Thor is still in the place of ‘what more could I lose?’
    Although maybe that would’ve been a slightly different movie

    • @TheCloserLook
      @TheCloserLook  Год назад +138

      Oh, yeah that would be a great idea.

    • @Natta44
      @Natta44 Год назад +63

      Taika doesn't care about past meaningful relationships characters built. Sigh

    • @peterfrank3365
      @peterfrank3365 Год назад +56

      It'd be a much more impactful movie had the Guardians stuck around much longer. There are parallels between the team and Thor, and even parallels between Quill and Jane, that were too good to miss and yet, they were.

    • @jxomxo
      @jxomxo Год назад +8

      That would be assuming that Taika cares about Thor and Rocket's friendship, which he clearly does not.

    • @viridian5maureen853
      @viridian5maureen853 Год назад +12

      @@peterfrank3365 But I was happy that the Guardians got to escape this horrible movie and useless manchild Thor. Good for them.

  • @RyanFloom
    @RyanFloom Год назад +114

    That scene with Sif felt like I was legit watching Superhero Movie or something, as did pretty much the entire movie

    • @nook5884
      @nook5884 Год назад +17

      Honestly, I think even Superhero Movie took itself more seriously than this

    • @tevenpowell8023
      @tevenpowell8023 Год назад +18

      It's like they took the "purposely crap play" joke from Ragnarok, and wrote the whole movie that way

    • @jessicahogan7248
      @jessicahogan7248 Год назад +7

      @@tevenpowell8023 They couldn't even come up with a new concept, they just repeated the purposefully crap play again. At least Top Gun switched the beach volleyball for football to make it more unique for an essentially identical scene

  • @BeMoreWeird
    @BeMoreWeird 10 месяцев назад +1

    This is quite good, and expresses something that I've employed in my own writing without really realizing it or putting a name to it. This is also surely one of the big problems I had with the Thor movie as well as many scenes in modern anime.

  • @CristanMeijer
    @CristanMeijer Год назад +2

    I love how you explained you can do exposition better with subtext. There's a lot of slack about exposition out there, but you actually have an alternative instead of just complaining about it.

  • @lkf8799
    @lkf8799 Год назад +573

    I think that's why I loved Everything Everywhere All at Once so much was because it was demanding from the first couple minutes it started. It didn't dumb anything down and it made you pay attention and work for the information. And it was complicated, fun, bonkers creative and I loved it and as soon as I left the theaters I not only wanted to see it again but I wanted to tell everybody about it.

    • @klfsmollpp9869
      @klfsmollpp9869 Год назад

      Bruh that movie is so stupid felt like a 4yo watching it what u on about.

    • @sarasamaletdin4574
      @sarasamaletdin4574 Год назад +7

      Really? I thought Everything Everywhre All at Once just spelled out everything (after the first scene) a million times and just tried to beat your head with the message.

    • @jwroot
      @jwroot Год назад +8

      Speaking of which I want to see Henry analyze something fascinating about EEAAO. It's certainly better than how Doctor strange 2 failed at magic.

    • @6-dpegasus425
      @6-dpegasus425 Год назад +2

      @@sarasamaletdin4574 oh hardly, that's more what dr strange 2 did

    • @DarkSharkDomilian
      @DarkSharkDomilian Год назад +17

      @@sarasamaletdin4574 It's not beating YOU with the message, it's beating the mom over the head with the message. Early on, we learn the main character doesn't understand English well. She doesn't understand anything particularly well. Everything is beating her on the head with the message hoping to make her understand. She doesn't understand what's wrong with her relationship with her daughter. She doesn't understand why her husband wants to divorce. She doesn't understand. So the movie has to beat her on the head with it. Only when it's arguably too late does she start to understand, and only sort of. And then she has to forge her path.

  • @TheWhoniversalMan
    @TheWhoniversalMan Год назад +306

    Watching these well thought-out and constructive criticisms, I kept thinking, "Yeah, that would be better if Love and Thunder wanted to be a genuinely dramatic movie, but it just wanted to be an awkward improv parody thing."
    I just imagine Taika responding to any of these criticisms with, "Yes, exactly! It's terrible and stupid, and it makes me laugh."
    Only issue is he's one of very few actually laughing!

  • @88FlyingHigh88
    @88FlyingHigh88 Год назад +3

    The other problem with the writing of (recent) Marvel movies is that no emotional scene can exist alone, it is always followed up by some trite, undercutting humor or gotchya

  • @shadophaxx2401
    @shadophaxx2401 7 часов назад +1

    Thor Sif's valhalla exchange was already done better in the first thor move.
    Sif: "Leave me, I shall die a warrior's death. Stories shall be told of this day!"
    Thor: "Live, and tell those stories yourself"

  • @The4thSnake
    @The4thSnake Год назад +70

    That example at the start had me convinced it was Korg making the dialogue up as part of his narration for a while.

  • @axyspianostudio
    @axyspianostudio Год назад +359

    1:30 oh my god, that's genius! It would've significantly been less awkward, and for the fans who've been following the mcu's timeline for a while now, that "long silence" would've practically been a nod to the 2 characters' dynamic; both had loved greatly, both had lost greatly. They both understand each other, and that "silence" would've given long-time fans enough information to basically, in a way, "see" the original dialogue exchange between them in the actual movie. Genius.

  • @tonyrae86
    @tonyrae86 10 месяцев назад +6

    I'm sure that having to work for Disney played a role in this... Whether because his heart wasn't in it and/or their meddling... Because anyone who's ever seen his works like Boy or Hunt for the Wilder people or Jojo Rabbit know that Taika is MORE THAN CAPABLE of writing with subtext beautifully.

    • @Whit1213
      @Whit1213 8 месяцев назад +3

      it's sad because I can only imagine how much better Marvel would be if it weren't owned by Disney

  • @techdat5939
    @techdat5939 Год назад +4

    4:17 Lady Stiff

  • @user-op6kt8pg9y
    @user-op6kt8pg9y Год назад +791

    It's crazy how there's children's animated movies with more depth to their characters and dialogue

    • @RandomResearch57
      @RandomResearch57 Год назад +17

      Well yes because children’s stuff talks in an easy way for people to understand

    • @teastrainer3604
      @teastrainer3604 9 месяцев назад +9

      I've always hated the quips, because they show that the characters don't take the threats seriously. So of course the viewers can't take them seriously either. Viewers loved the quips for a while, but now they've realized that they destroy all the dramatic tension.

    • @lusciouslunk
      @lusciouslunk 8 месяцев назад +3

      Makes sense considering any movie was made by adults, and is the passion of those adults, so you’d hope anyone would be able to enjoy it, not just kids

    • @happyllama1160
      @happyllama1160 6 месяцев назад +3

      Children’s stories need to have depth, for the sake of the kids and their adults who bring them. If it’s all brain dead rubbish, we’ll be left with loads of brain dead adults in a decade or so. If they’re challenging and have layers to benefit all ages then you get adults who can enjoy films and might be more empathetic to other view points.
      Adult movies just need to keep our mind occupied for two hours, kids movies should be developing theirs.

    • @renatoramos8834
      @renatoramos8834 6 месяцев назад +3

      You speak as if children's animated movies is a handicapp for character depth.

  • @shael3794
    @shael3794 Год назад +185

    Another thing lack of subtext does is make it feel like the writers don't trust the actors' abilities. I believe Chris Hemsworth is capable of showing us how distanced from society his character feels through his expressions and tone. It kind of feels like Waititi doesn't.

  • @Idontcare5225
    @Idontcare5225 Год назад +2

    The interesting bit about narration in films - the narration also has to add something to the story. If someone is expositing a story where you can clearly see and hear what is going on, it feels redundant and boring. If the narration, however, tells us, the viewer, something about the characters that the characters don't want to confront or is not revealed in character dialogue or expression, then it becomes witty and adds another layer of dimension to the story.
    Character A: "I like red wine," he said to the pretty girl beside him. *Face is grinning, excited while he orders a glass of red*
    Narrator: [Character A] Did not in fact like red wine, but he recalled the first time he'd ever looked at a beautiful woman. The lady across the street who always drank red wine matching her lipstick. It wasn't the wine that held his attention. It was her lips. The same lips he now found on the woman across from him he so desperately wanted to please.
    The dialogue above is garbage, so forgive me, but the narrator in this example gives us insight to Character A's memories we were not privy to before. Thus adding to the story.

  • @ominousintrusivethoughts3947
    @ominousintrusivethoughts3947 10 месяцев назад +3

    The thing that bugs me most about this movie was the tonal inconsistencies; ragnorok was funny to be a one off and make things dark when infinity wars hits, it worked and marvel just said "lets do that again" after thor lost everyone in his family, (especially his recently reconsiled brother) and half the universe because he didnt "aim for the head"
    Marvel also realized how strong thor should be, they didn't put him in civil war, they only had him fight hulk for a second and he started annihilating him, he took on thanos and the full power of the stones in seconds, because hes op. When he showed up to wakanda, everyone knew the fight was over. But then they thought "ragnarok was fun lets do that again" and they just completely leave his history

  • @jakekeskeys1138
    @jakekeskeys1138 Год назад +299

    This movie was so unbelievable bad, really sad compared to how good the third movie was.

    • @nalday2534
      @nalday2534 Год назад +20

      the third was terrible too

    • @aperson8420
      @aperson8420 Год назад +34

      @@nalday2534the third one was amazing compared to Thor 1 and 2

    • @nalday2534
      @nalday2534 Год назад +28

      @@aperson8420nah it's garbage. first is the only decent thor movie so far

    • @Skizzy461
      @Skizzy461 Год назад +18

      @@nalday2534 Very much agree, so refreshing to hear someone else share this sentiment. 3rd movie was bad, just like the 4th. I won't even mention Dark World lol. 1st was the only movie worth a damn.

    • @lovethepandainyou
      @lovethepandainyou Год назад +48

      Third was a good comedy. But most of the issues in the 4th were present in the third, except the humor was better and its flaws therefore much less egregious.

  • @buttertool6211
    @buttertool6211 Год назад +126

    You can just tell that Taika is not really comfortable with non-original stuff, not without someone telling him no at least

    • @ghiggs8389
      @ghiggs8389 Год назад +16

      Idk, Ragnarok seemed to do well with him having their hand on the wheel as well. Reigned him in a bit. Love & Thunder it seems they just let him go full Watiti.

    • @existentialnihil
      @existentialnihil Год назад +21

      @@ghiggs8389 exactly, I don't hate the guy but he's putting too much of his "style" and himself in the movies for my taste.

    • @ghiggs8389
      @ghiggs8389 Год назад +6

      @@existentialnihil he turned the movie into an epic Old Spice commercial.

    • @raahimkamaal5363
      @raahimkamaal5363 Год назад +19

      @@existentialnihilbut his style isn’t necessarily the issue, jojo rabbit was both funny and dramatic with good writing. Even thought what we do in the shadows was in no means dramatic it was still well written. This entire movie felt like a caricature of wiatiti’s own style or like some cheap imitation.

    • @madamebkrt
      @madamebkrt Год назад +2

      @@raahimkamaal5363 He needs to stick to comedy. What We Do In The Shadows was hilarious.

  • @justablackscreen9832
    @justablackscreen9832 11 дней назад +1

    i always thought the scene with starlord was so weird because that was the "joke". Like Thor talks in a weird way so star lord was kind of mimicking that way of speaking either to mock him or communicate with him.

  • @carl_anderson9315
    @carl_anderson9315 6 месяцев назад +2

    In Avengers Infinity War, Thor is first contact with the Guardians Of The Galaxy makes them realize they’re in presence of someone from a superior level, physically majestic. Waititi makes them annoyed and almost disgusted of having him around, a cretin. And now Star Lord has to teach him about sacrifice and finding himself to the god who lost everyone?

  • @MAFion
    @MAFion Год назад +110

    A lot of times when you see a film you realize they went to shooting too soon. The script was not quite ready. These things could have been ironed out in another pass or two. But studios are in a rush to produce. Taika is actually a really good screenwriter. You see what he can do when he has the time. He spent years thinking about JoJo Rabbit. Same with M. Night Shyamalan. The Sixth Sense went through 17 drafts. Nobody was watching their calendar waiting for him. All the movies after that, he's usually been on a tight schedule.

  • @MichaelWilliams-ow9ue
    @MichaelWilliams-ow9ue Год назад +167

    Thor 4 seemed so tantalizingly close to being actually really good. Like, a well-considered 5% extra amount of effort could have fixed the dialogue and plot issues and given the actors a chance to really shine through their roles.

    • @Natta44
      @Natta44 Год назад +14

      If the whole thing was completely rewritten and CGI scenes were polished. Yes.

    • @CATDHD
      @CATDHD Год назад +31

      Portman and Bale, and even Hemsforth were very very good. An interesting premise, a pathetically written script. Yep, the rewrite would have come in handy. I think, Waititi was indulged too much. By studio, by himself. Just no one told him to take it more seriously. Completely wasted time it was for me.

    • @anaussie213
      @anaussie213 Год назад +3

      @@CATDHD I found Portman a bland non-entity. Bale was good.

    • @HappyLarry.
      @HappyLarry. Год назад +2

      Lmao that is not at all the analysis I would've gone with. It was somehow a worse Thor: Dark World, I don't know how it's supposed to be good

  • @marenkendall7413
    @marenkendall7413 Год назад

    The primary example of show not tell that comes to my head in film is the Married Life sequence in Up.

  • @CharmingReality
    @CharmingReality 6 месяцев назад +1

    Scorsese is the master of utilising narration in his films. Goodfellas and Casino are filled with narration but it adds to the theatricality in clever ways.

  • @Rawk5tar
    @Rawk5tar Год назад +147

    It's crazy to be that professional writers and a crazy budgeted movie, can screw up basic writing techniques. Like, I'm not a writer, but I know that 'show, don't tell' is like a fundamental concept.

    • @scaremoth334
      @scaremoth334 Год назад +4

      yeah lmao first thing i learnt in drama when i was in 6th grade/ year seven was show dont tell

    • @TheReck12
      @TheReck12 Год назад +2

      It probably means they did it in purpose, it just didn't land

    • @mkhachfe
      @mkhachfe Год назад +3

      I think it was intentional, but the joke didn't work...who knows. There are some very bad writers out there lol

    • @wyomingfrenchfry1733
      @wyomingfrenchfry1733 Год назад +4

      I think it was a combination of the rush to make a new movie and a lack of actual love for the project by the writers and director

    • @wwaxwork
      @wwaxwork Год назад

      Trouble is I suspect they adlib a lot of the "jokes" making each other laugh on the day sure but it doesn't make good storytelling.

  • @choreomaniac
    @choreomaniac Год назад +177

    It’s especially egregious in the first scene because someone insecure and socially awkward would not explain their feelings easily and make all subtext text. It might work for Drax because his character is supposed to say everything literally and openly.
    As for narration, the director must ask “is there a way to show this? Is there a way for one character to explain it to another?” And most of all “Is this information necessary to convey to the audience?”

  • @Monkeyman-qt1sm
    @Monkeyman-qt1sm 9 месяцев назад

    14:20 lmao I love the “even if you’re hyper vigilant” as you’re typing your credit card number into an email.🤣🤣🤣

  • @kpe02
    @kpe02 День назад +1

    The whole movie feels like that theater scene in Ragnarok 😅🤣

  • @izzeypally
    @izzeypally Год назад +72

    I HATE when games tell you how to solve a problem when you're figuring it out. Or when you're about to use a skill or attack or shoot a weak spot and right as you're about to do it, the game tells you what to do. That's always irked me. It's like, "come on, man. give me a chance to figure it out on my own!"

  • @tikidale
    @tikidale Год назад +65

    With the “plumber” line, it can also indicate that she’s in need of some “good news” to picker her up after a bad day of work. The lady in that example is unconsciously giving her partner a chance to lift her spirits with something positive.

  • @PowerRedBullTypology
    @PowerRedBullTypology 6 месяцев назад +1

    I like to compose and produce music and never really thought about dialog, as storytelling is not really an artform I've thought about much. However, it's interesting that the weaknesses of Thor are so similar to a lot of issues in music composition. If you feed your audience chords that are too predictable, it bores. You have to make it interestingly enough so it does take a bit of effort to guess what is coming, yet you also do not want to just create anything too chaotic that is incompressible. You have to feed them just the right amount (which is difficult of course, since everyone has slightly different speeds of calculation in their heads). However, the concept is so similar to writing, apparently.

  • @eeeeee8762
    @eeeeee8762 4 месяца назад +1

    So it's a classic case of "Show, don't tell"

  • @f0rth3l0v30fchr15t
    @f0rth3l0v30fchr15t Год назад +154

    The lack of subtext sometimes feels like being held in contempt by the writer. Almost like they're convinced that the audience in general, and me in particular, couldn't possibly be smart enough to understand their masterpiece without having my hand held the whole way through.

    • @nonono9194
      @nonono9194 Год назад +5

      It's more laziness, first drafts often have expositional dialogue

  • @thejohnroxbury
    @thejohnroxbury Год назад +43

    Better Call Saul is a great example of a show that uses subtext masterfully.

    • @marcusking8507
      @marcusking8507 Год назад +2

      I second that. It's not /quite/ as good as Breaking Bad, but it's an awesome example of great writing nonetheless.

  • @jasonpark1556
    @jasonpark1556 6 месяцев назад

    I read a book that implemented the 2+2 model extremely well. Now i need to tell everyone I DONT read but im trying to get into it slowly so i bought a couple of books, one of them really captivated me because it kept using well placed hooks to keep the reader engaged, its called the silent patient

  • @tanvir.m85
    @tanvir.m85 28 дней назад +1

    12:04 this reminds me of the tv show Psych, this is probably why it’s such a joy to watch

  • @jxomxo
    @jxomxo Год назад +267

    I think there is some confusion between bland dialogue and unrealistic dialogue, though they can overlap sometimes. Indeed this film's dialogue is painfully inhuman to the point that the screenplay needed at least three more drafts, but its issue is in how disconnected it is emotionally in the movie, not just that it's unrealistic. Film characters speak unrealistically all the time, especially in great films (Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson, anyone?) but they work to serve the purpose of the whole film, and they are both supported by and complement the story. Thor: Love & Thunder is trying to be 4 movies at once, and the dialogue reflects that: dull, poor, emotionally detached, and yet unwarrantedly bonkers. It just doesn't work.

    • @milkflavored
      @milkflavored Год назад +10

      Thank you for saying this! I keep listening to the first example and (admittedly) I don't know if I hear what makes it more tell than show, as much as it feels stiff -- and I'm guessing that stiffness (based on your comment) is bc there's no real emotion behind it

    • @starscreamthecruel8026
      @starscreamthecruel8026 Год назад +1

      I didnt mind the bonkers bit. It suggested the idea that for all of Thor's attempts at being in control of his life, he really wasn't and chaos followed him everywhere. I liked that because it reminded me of times in my own life where I wasn't in control of anything, it just happened around me and sometimes I remembered to react to it.

  • @Yarblocosifilitico
    @Yarblocosifilitico Год назад +90

    The Closer Look: subtext
    * Disney writers have left the chat *

  • @Craeonkie
    @Craeonkie 7 часов назад +1

    I think they're doing this because (not that they should be and not that they're executing it well) they want to get more people interested in the movies without having to watch pre endgame, which is kinda dumb

  • @multiapokalipsa
    @multiapokalipsa 10 месяцев назад +2

    Honestly, I enjoyed the narration more than most of the rest of the film. I love Tikas humor in general, and when he's telling you about the film as an omnicient narrator, I thought it worked much better than when the rest of the characters were in the same style. Dialogue like Thor 1 with Tikas narration would be 👌 in my book

  • @MsSumoon
    @MsSumoon Год назад +68

    I believe giving too much creative freedom to Taika it what actually killed the movie.
    Let me explain- Taika has a unique sense of humor, but it works WAY better in his original work.
    He clearly isn't that much familiar with Thor, his first movie was a happy accident, but I do believe he was far more guided by the rest of the creative team on Ragnarök than in Love and Thunder.
    And I don't like Ragnarök, I think he crossed some lines that it's not Thor there, it's a random goofy man disguised as Thor.
    I love What we do in the shadows and Jojo Rabbit, but it's because they are 100% original, no prior lore needed, not studio demand.
    Is Taika Waititi a creative person? Yes, but in my opinion, he should continue to do his original characters and world, it looks like he is way more comfortable doing that.
    And I'm saying this as a fellow creative person, what killed Thor Love and Thunder, was something that started on Ragnarök, people loved the humor of Ragnarök so Disney said to Taika- PUT IT MORE!
    And now the house is full of soap and everything is wet, and it's not going to be easy to clean up this mess.

  • @Omega_Orion
    @Omega_Orion Год назад +225

    I would like to highlight something my friend told me that really changes how I look at the movie. Korg isn't just the narrator in parts where there is narration, Korg is telling the story the whole time, and Korg is a somewhat unreliable narrator who is a bit silly, and importantly here doesn't really do subtext.
    I really think that's what the writers were going for, and that's why this movie is as zany as it is, Korg is telling the whole story, however I also think that was a mistake. They nailed it, they achieved what they wanted really effectively in this scenario, but overall for the audience it just isn't good

    • @antzfranceleyesperance5551
      @antzfranceleyesperance5551 Год назад +14

      I just had an idea. What if the writers cut the silly story at half time and started describing a very very dark reality for the restbof the movie? I mean the vilain is literally killing gods.

    • @empiricalsmut9419
      @empiricalsmut9419 Год назад +43

      I've heard this explanation before, but I think it's just copium to cover for the film's weaknesses. Too many jokes? Korg is a silly, unreliable narrator. Thor acted like a total dumbass? Korg is a silly, unreliable narrator. None of the drama ever landed with any impact? Korg is, again, a silly, unreliable narrator.
      I saw people using this same hand-waving when it came to the Birds of Prey movie, where some people felt they could just explain away anything dumb in the film as "Oh, Harley is an unreliable narrator."
      And, if that was actually the case, then it would be a really lame way to cover your ass as a writer. If people like the film, hoorah! Oh but if they don't, the writer can just take refuge in "Oh, that was told by an unreliable narrator, the REAL story wasn't quite as silly." It's a unique take, but is little more than a theory meant to explain away any deficiencies the film had.

    • @ortodogge
      @ortodogge Год назад +7

      @@empiricalsmut9419 I totally agree. Even if movie is actually supposed to be unreliably narrated by Korg (which it obviously wasn't), then how about producers find some competent and reliable narrators instead? We don't need explanations, we need a good movie with a solid storytelling. I don't give a spit if it's by Korg or David Fincher, I just need it to be good.

    • @KoongYe
      @KoongYe Год назад +7

      Korg is literally Taika Waititi. Its not even a character. Korg being an unreliable narrator only says about how much of a shitty job Taika did.

    • @latayesha
      @latayesha Год назад +1

      @@empiricalsmut9419 Don’t drag B.O.P. into this!!

  • @dr.braxygilkeycruises1460
    @dr.braxygilkeycruises1460 10 месяцев назад

    I truly enjoyed this video and subscribed. Excellent analysis!!!!

  • @evingrindle1929
    @evingrindle1929 6 месяцев назад +2

    Taika’s team clearly thought the reason why Ragnarok was successful was because of the humor. I’ve never been more frustrated watching Thor 4, I kid you not every time I’d start to get invested in something happening they’d throw another joke on screen…

  • @lucimar1990
    @lucimar1990 Год назад +70

    The funny thing is, he keeps saying "this dialogue is not exactly Shakespeare", and Shakespeare was actually very, very explicit in his writing (specially on the monologues). It was great though, and there's a reason why it's still relevant today. But... the complexity of his writing wasn't just because it was subtle. Quite on the contrary.

  • @zackmalone
    @zackmalone Год назад +44

    The first (and only) time I saw TLAT, I remember wondering if Chris Pratt and Chris Hemsworth shot scenes separately and the dialogue was edited together later, it felt THAT unnatural.

  • @CooperDooper38
    @CooperDooper38 Год назад +1

    That whole "game ruining the puzzle for you" thing is so frustrating.
    Like, when it comes to the Lost Woods in TotK, I was trying to help a friend without spelling it out for them, so I had to pick my words carefully. I went with "You can't drop in, and you can't get in on foot, but there's another way in." And let them figure it out themselves.
    If TotK had a Navi character, I feel like they'd say the same thing, and then add, "If only there was a way to get underneath it" or "Maybe there's a secret tunnel" or something that would completely spell out that you need to go into the depths and find a pillar you can ascend through.