I posted this video on the Mooney board and it was quickly pointed out that the good doctor purchased the aircraft in 2012. He got his instrument rating in 2016 not his PPSEL. It’s an important distinction.
Absolutely brilliant evaluation. The crash location is 3 miles from our house and family friend witnessed the crash. It indeed was overcast at the time of the accident with showers and heavier weather at times throughout the day. I’ve flown thousands of hours from KFCM and your explanation was exactly what I’ve shared with friends and neighbors. I’m retired from Delta/Northwest with 41 years and 30k hours. Well done as usual Juan, blue side up.
The video doesn't seem to show any precipitation or weather happening in the area of the crash when it happened. If you look at the roof of the cars in the video, there isn't any rain drops. There's a slight breeze that is affecting small branches but not the larger branches. Looks to me under 15 knots, hardly enough to cause the plane to break up in mid flight.
@@TheChrisJones Here in the Twin Cities we had scattered thunderstorms on and off and spotty all day. You can certainly have weather at 2000 feet and quiet conditions a mile or less away at ground level. Come visit our dynamic and deadly weather.
The NTSB spokesman stated that the plane had been descending at over 5,000 fpm before the crash, and also advised that pieces of the left hand horizontal stab and elevator were found two blocks away from the impact area. The spokesman also said there was some data available from the aircraft. It looks like it was what you said. A loss of situational awareness followed by the high rate of descent, and a last minute hard pull that overstressed the aircraft. This reminds me of an airshow I went to many years ago at Dobbins AFB. The local ANG had one of their F-4's on display. Someone walked up and asked the guy behind the rope if the Phantom was an "all weather" aircraft. The GBTR replied: "Yes, the F-4 is an all weather aircraft, but the pilots are not always all weather pilots.." . So true. A good pilot always knows his limitations...and his aircraft's. Another good report, Juan.
I watch ADSB exchange often..and while it's just an sliver of true operations, military pilots I see tend to operate largely in unchallenging weather conditions...the commercials do it weekly to daily. I don't see complicated landing paths from the military...I do see it from commercial ops.
@@justinhaase8825 I was sitting under the eves of my house watching one heavy lightning rain hail event and out of the super low ceiling came a Marine F-18 followed by his wingman a minute later. One even appeared to get hit by lightning or at least cause a strike. I was blown away.
Great job Juan. I'm not an IFR pilot but owned a M20 with the 200hp and logged over 1200 hours in 7 years with never an incident. I knew my limitation and respected the characteristics of this slippery aircraft. If you're not on your game, this aircraft will fly you.
I’ve been a passenger in a MOONEY on several occasions with a pilot friend of mine, it’s a great little airplane, really fast, a bit tight inside but comfortable, again Juan thanks for helping us non aviators to fully understand what happened in this unfortunate accident
@@hudsondonnell444 the Mooney wing spar is known to be unusually strong compared to most other GA aircraft though. I own one. It is a single long piece of steel. Other models like piper have sections and bolts. I’ve heard of cases of Mooneys surviving thunderstorm encounters with estimates of 9Gs of force. Much of the frame was torqued but the plane and wing spar - survived.
@@mitchsmith9742 Sorry for your loss. I didn't know them personally, but I know this is having a big impact on folks I know in Libby. I watch a lot of these aviation accident reports and it's always someone else and never involves anyone I have any connection to. But when it involves two people from a tiny town in Montana where I grew up, it hits home and reminds you that this kind of tragedy can happen to anyone.
Thanks Juan for covering these types of GA accidents, while unfortunate we can all learn from them. As you noted, the Mooney is sleek, fast and sexy looking, but as attractive as those attributes are they can work against you if you’re not on top of your game. Reminds us that while we may have an Instrument rating, instrument proficiency and experience in actual IMC is critical, especially in a high performance single like the Mooney. I remember my first instructors warning when I expressed interest in the Mooney, “fast, but unforgiving.”
Excellent analysis with little to no speculation as the video and pictures showed the wings folded up and the pieces of the aircraft found away from the crash site. What cannot be known is what the pilot was thinking or wat control inputs were made. We do know there was some kind of structural failure. Good job Juan.
Just a note to those of you that think this is all just snuff entertainment. We pilots want to know every little detail of this kind of thing so we don't repeat it. Especially when you're riding with us.
Hey BrYan, ( no capital Y ) I agree wholeheartedly, I used to subscribe to the ASA newsletter and follow almost every accident analysis website to LEARN!!. I've had family and friends accuse me of having a " morbid curiosity " and then question why I would ever want to engage in that activity?? I don't get it and am tired of trying to explain it. I suppose few people other than those in aviation understand! I personally would want others to learn and benefit from any incident that I was unfortunate enough to experience! Thanks for letting me rattle on! Stay Safe!
@@johnreed8872 Totally understand & agree. You have to keep improving & know the links in the chain that lead to the accident & be able to break at least one. Some poor soul often has paid for specific new information or just a reminder. Gotta make it count.
I work in aviation on the sharp end on the ground. I’ve seen people I know die in fiery balls. I know many others who’ve died over the years. I totally agree about post crash discussion. To stifle debate around safety matters is never a good thing. I know there’s that “armchair QB speculation is a big no no” but I always think it’s good to talk. Knowledge is key.
This guy is well qualified to provide his initial facts and analysis. As an instrument rated M20-J pilot, I find this info valueable. If you don't like it, don't watch it and save your keyboard warrior rants.
Agreed. However, it should not be monetized when it is about a crash. If Juan wants to do a public service announcement, great. This clip is monetized, as is the clip about N560AR which used *my* pictures and is monetized. I've emailed Juan twice now to demonetize it. This is very upsetting. If it is not demonetized later today, I will be forced to issue a copyright takedown notice to RUclips. I do NOT want to do this, as we need to learn from the situations of others and all become better pilots. He has shared some valuable information, but I cannot be part of any monetization process regarding the loss of life. Juan has now dragged ME into this. Not cool. We just need to do this without making money on it.
I was flying my Cessna 140 with a retired UAL Captain in the right seat. I was doing some maneuvres just learned and lost control. That airplane got up to 160 mph very quick. My passenger was coaching me not to pull up too hard. I was extremely amazed how fast that airplane accelerated going straight down. Learned a good lesson.
Yep, I was practicing accelerated stalls, with instructor, in a Cessna 150. In my inexperience, I stepped on the wrong rudder while in the “power-on” stall and she rolled over and down, fast…which overwhelmed my inputs! Probably 130mph very quickly. My instructor first pulled power to idle and then eased us up at maybe 2g’s(initially) to level, all very calmly and quickly. I learned a lot that flight. We had over 3,000’ below us, though, in clear sunny sky. If in the clouds? Oh my! That should be practiced in a simulator, though…how to read those instruments, fast, in the clouds in unusual attitudes. Except, vestibular effects and control loading don’t happen in a sim.
Stalled inverted at the top of a loop and split S to recovery and wrapping up the airspeed to red. After recovery and straight and level I said Idiot why didn’t I pull back the throttle? Events will happen quicker than the brain can react sometimes. The little bi-plane was new to me and I unexpectedly tested it for max airspeed and flutter.
I live a few miles from Flying Cloud and fly out of there often. Saturday morning we had thunderstorms in the area, but by afternoon, it was just off and on light rain and 1000 foot ceilings. For that reason I doubt any break up was induced by turbulence.
Thanks for this. I watched the doorbell video of the crash and it didn't appear to me that the weather could have caused on in flight breakup either. It wasn't raining at the time, and there was only a moderate breeze at the time, certainty not enough to cause it to break up I would think.
i live a half mile from the crash and it was one of the worst feeling seen it come down. If you know deer run golf course that’s where i was when i saw it go down
As always I have been waiting for your report. Thanks for explaining this accident in terms we all can understand. As for the atc being asked for help, when was the last time you told a doctor how to preform brain surgery and he listened!! Thanks for all you do!
Just would like to say Dr.Edney was a tenant at the Millard Airport were iam employed. It always hits you hard when you know the pilot in these incidents, no matter what the issue were. Thank you for you incite!
Thank you for this excellent report, as usual. I would struggle to appreciate the details in most reports anywhere else. My condolences to anyone affected or close to the victims. My hope is that this will contribute to some additional safety measures being added to the aviation community, in particular for this size of aircraft.
Excellent as always Juan. This happened a few miles from my home, and even closer to my workplace. The crash site is located next to a local bar that would have been very busy on Saturday, a few yards east and there could have been incredible loss of life.
Let me tell you what it's like for a very low time (approx 100 hrs) newly licensed pilot to fly into a cloud at night. Scenario - I was stationed in New Orleans in the mid 1960s on active duty with the Coast Guard and got my Private SEL at New Orleans Lakefront airport. I loved to fly at night and was gung-ho about learning about instrument flying. I would occasionally fly out over Lake Pontchartrain at night on clear VFR nights to simulate instrument flight. One night, I was flying a Cessna 172 with a couple of non-pilot Coast Guard buddies out west of New Orleans. Suddenly, the cockpit was lit up with the reflection of my outside navigation lights from inside a cloud. I immediately went on the instruments and started a standard rate left turn. During the course of the turn, my muscles tightened up in my arms and it felt like I was putting about 50 lbs of forward pressure on the yoke to keep the instruments right. I didn't dare look away from the instrument panel until one of my passengers said he could see a light. The instruments were saying one thing and my body wanted to do something else and it was both mentally and physically very stressful. After getting clear of the cloud, I noticed that despite my virtual downforce, I had climbed about 100 ft during the turn-around. It was an unbelievably scary experience.
Learning later in life immediately puts you on the back foot. Experience in life is not sufficient to overcome inexperience in the air. Also you get considerably less bold as you get older and to be honest, many older pilots are a pain in the arse with instructors and examiners. This often means the scary bits of flying are not taught in as much depth as they should be and too many are passed when maybe they should not. I can remember many times when I flew and had an attack of the leans and I have also lost control in the air (through gross stupidity). Each of these was a learning experience that made me a better pilot. Where age and relative inexperience bites you in the arse is not recognising when things are starting to go wrong and not taking the correct action when they do. ps. Experience is not long haul 30,000 hours with two landings every month, it’s 30,000 flights in various conditions over various terrains.
I can confirm he's held his PPL well before 2016. The FAA database shows the most recent update/change to your certificate. I believe it's likely the Instrument rating was added in 2016.
Thank you Blanco! I'm not a pilot but I've always been interested in aviation and a love for aircraft. These crash evaluations are heartbreaking but necessary. If I were a pilot, these reports would be a crucial learning tool to keep from having the same misfortune.
@@aaronwhite1786 the accident team will likely figure that out, but lots. Was told by someone the wings could take six Gs. Not sure if that is correct or not. However, If the pilot got into a graveyard spiral, with some smash (in the yellow arc or red), a sudden yank to pull it out would load the aircraft up pretty substantially.
Juan. Would you think about teaching us what you mean by fast and efficient small aircraft, as it relates to loss of control in IMC? When we are training under the hood in a Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior, we loose concentration in a turn the nose drops and we can find ourselves 30 knots faster and 200 feet lower before the instructor says something. He is trying to see if the student notices and what the student will do when they realize their mistake. How much faster does a Mooney or Bonanza gain speed when the same mistake is made in those aircraft? It is substantial. Maintaining a solid approach in a 172, 182 or Cherokee is much easier and much more forgiving than a Mooney I think
Actually not that much difference, 30 kt is still a lot, but loosing 200 ft can happen easily, mooneys are faster and heavier but they are also more stable than a Cessna. But once you did a mistake like wrong trim mooneys require more muscle force to correct it, actually so much muscle that it can overwhelm someone who is not physically fit, getting mentally behind a mooney is a lot more unforgiving.
This has all the hallmarks of spatial disorientation resulting in a spiral dive and overstressing and structural failure. Look at the FR24 path in three dimensions and you’ll see it. Several maneuvers including heading and altitude changes, then a spiraling, descending turn to the left just before impact. Here are the ASOS and METARs from Glencoe and Flying Cloud at that time: KGYL 072235Z AUTO 06007KT 10SM OVC008 23/21 A2977 RMK AO2 T02270205 KFCM 072235Z AUTO 08010KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF KFCM 072240Z AUTO 08008KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF And it’s not much different for the several hours before and after the accident. Turbulence from departing/decaying thunderstorm outflow could certainly be a factor in the initial upset, but I doubt it. To support the possible (but unlikely) thunderstorm outflow hypothesis, I will point out an additional ASOS report from KFCM ~30 minutes prior to the accident: KFCM 072215Z AUTO 08011KT 10SM OVC011 22/20 A2977 RMK T02200200 LTG DSNT S! MADISHF This storm was 20-30 miles SE of KFCM and there was no discernible outflow to the west on radar (reflectivity or velocity). I’m thinking more task-saturation and spatial disorientation in IMC while maneuvering for the approach.
What the hell does that mean???? “Going out looking for trouble?” This was benign IMC conditions with an 1100 foot overcast. The whole point of an IFR rating is to be able to fly in weather. You must be qualified and proficient but “going out looking for trouble” is a ridiculous statement.
As a complete bystander just listening in on these conversations, I am more and more amazed at the volume and quantity (and seriously irreversible consequences) of variables, "must do", "must not do", etc. that are dealt with even by experienced pilots, either airline professionals or GA like this 72 year old. Life and death skills required in multi-tasking--with a very high price tag if the pilot gets behind or gets confused.
You got it right. Flying is NOT as easy as driving a car, and the consequences of doing it "wrong" are often fatal. At some point, better technology may change that but it's certainly not here yet.
Excellent job! Ur explanations are very insightful and ur experience shows up every time u report on these unfortunate accidents. Keep up the great work.
My sympathies to the pilot and his family passengers. According to our local newspaper in Kalispell, MT, the passengers were the pilot's stepson and the stepson's wife. The wife was a physician in Libby, MT and the stepson worked for the local county health department. In 1992, I was partners with two physicians in an A-36 Bonanza. One of them died in a very similar weather-related crash at Peachtree-Dekalb airport north of Atlanta, GA. He was not instrument rated and flew into low ceiling and visibility at night on a return trip from Florida. Fortunately, he was alone. Having a good autopilot and the knowledge of how to use it is a must in single-pilot complex airplane operations. It could save your life unless the weather is extreme.
The tail has to go away first, either the elevator or horizontal, aircraft pitches up or down then the wings fold, seen it before, when pieces are not at the accident site
Saw the damage from a similar incident about 10 years ago with the exact same make and model of aircraft. The pilot survived the incident but the plane was beyond repair with wings rippled outboard of the landing gear at basically the same place that the wings separated in the accident you are describing. The pilot stated the plane went into a stall and descended over 9000 feet before he was able to gain control just before impact to the ground near the airport and he was able to land safely. The pilot stated in this incident that on a instrument approach to the airport a autopilot malfunction put the plane in a sudden pitch up situation. When being disassembled, the salvage company employee stated he had never seen a Mooney with wings bent that close to separation.
✈✈✈ Did my own close look at this accident this morning as part of my ongoing independent research, saw something that no one else has mentioned so far. It appears that just before the loss of control, the altitude is held perfectly while the groundspeed decays to something really slow just after leveling off after a descent. My best early guess is that the pilot pulled the power back for the descent, let the autopilot level the airplane, then he forgot to add power when the airplane leveled. Speed decayed, then a stall or at least an autopilot disconnect while in IMC, and at that point the pilot let speed build up then pulled back and overstressed the airframe.
@@markonw6661 I'm a controller and a flight instructor, and with every fiber of my being I strongly encourage any pilot who "gets behind the airplane" to calmly ask us controllers for help if they need it. The exact help needed will vary from one situation to another, but sometimes all it takes from the pilot is an "unable" or "standby".
I did my retract & constant speed training in M20s at RACWA in Perth Western Australia. Juan's description is identical to my instructor. Its a great plane for what its designed to do - go from A to B fast. But that has to be respected. This is not a plane that can be stalled without lots of space. I've done my aerobatics endorsement so I understand controlled stalls and spins. The M20 is not a Cessna or a Pitts. It has a full laminar flow wing which is how it gets that performance. The issue wit stalling a full laminar flow wing is the time and speed it takes to re-establish the laminar flow. As Juan would know this is also true for many other high performance aircraft from Lancairs through biz jets up to commercial passenger jets. Best to all
"over stressed" the air frame! meaning...'G force' load on the wings caused them to buckle and lift up? İf the load was that great, is it possible that the folks in the cabin were passed out as well? Maybe all the way to impact!
Instead of voluntarily training in the simulator every six months, I now train in the simulator with my instrument flight instructor every other month. Even though the insurance company doesn’t care about my proficiency.
Great idea, Art, and train like a prizefighter, because you have to win, every time you're in the elements. Two small tips from this former CFII: Trim the airplane (aviate), and know where you are, at all times, including altitude (navigate).
I think this is the first time I've heard of someone breaking a Mooney wing spar in flight... I've heard of two incidents where the pilot pulled north of 10Gs and landed alive... Usually the tail surfaces separate from flutter before the wing can be loaded enough to break it.
I just looked at that pilots last few flights on flightaware and they didn't look very good. Lots of airspeed and altitude changes flight paths were not very stable. Mechanical problem getting worse? Rusty pilot? I am wondering whether this uptick in GA accidents can be attributed to rusty pilots due to lack of flying during the pandemic.
Honestly, if there weren't pictures of the wing folded up, I wouldnt believe it. I've only got a few dozen hours in Moonies and I couldn't think of a better, more solid design. It was always a pleasure flying them.
Sad news for all involved. Silver lining is It’s a miracle no one on the ground was injured. It crashed in the only area that didn’t have people or a building.
I had to slow the security camera video all the way down and pretty much frame by frame it... the way those wings were folded up, it looks like there was a joint right under the belly that let go. I've seen a few comments regarding how strong the airframe is on a Mooney, but is that spar one continuous piece from wing tip to wing tip? Or is there a joint in the middle of the fuselage that might have failed? It could be just a truck my eyes are playing too, depending on how the belly of that plane was painted, and I'm no pilot, or AME, I'm just some guy who knows how to break things made out of metal, wood, plastic, and just about every other material out there.
I worked for Mooney for several years, I am trying to figure out how you fold the wings on a single spar wing.....where was the failure? how does the single spar snap like that? I know how they are built.....single spar wings shouldn't snap like that.....
If it was bad weather I’m wondering about a rogue wind gust - more specifically maybe a microburst at altitude? I don’t even know if that’s even possible..
I recently found that a piper malibu plane N444DT crashed almost a year ago. I'm not an invited reader of Kathryn's Report and can't seem to find information anywhere else about this plane.
Looking at the door cam video the wing looks intact as the Mooney is falling, tail low, about the height of the roof to the left. In the next frame the tail is just touching the ground and the wings both appear to have folded straight up into a vertical position.
Juan - I really enjoy the channel and the in depth analysis you do. Would you consider doing a video on the BRS and how these latest two accidents could’ve been affected had a BRS been used ??? Also - Have you considered a BRS for your personal aircraft ? Why or why not ??? Thanks - PNR
The M20 has a carry-through wing spar - no joints. Incredible loads are needed to fold it, I didn't know that was possible. That must've been quite a spiral and given the elevator was sheared off, guessing that the reaction was to pull back on the column.
As a former GA pilot, I have always seriously questioned the ability for most non-commercial pilots to safely perform single pilot IFR flights, especially with the older “steam gauge” flight instruments. I know in my own experience, I would often enlist a second experienced, instrument rated pilot to accompany me on flights where weather could require approaches to minimums. Glass cockpits, IFR certified GPS and a good autopilot can do a great deal to lesson the pilot workload in IMC. Instrument flying is serious business. Too often pilots with relatively low time and ample financial resources get in over their head quickly in such situations. Knowing your personal limitations and NEVER EXCEEDING them is the key to staying alive.
This! it's impossible to explain to amateur pilots how deadly serious it is to hand fly, single-pilot, in IMC. Getting the rating is easy; getting to the point where you can safely do it by yourself, at night and in bad weather isn't. Strangely enough, though, once you clear that hurdle through regular IFR/IMC flying, it becomes almost routine.
I quit flying in 2006 but while I was an active PPL, between the years of 1998 and 2006, I don't recall hearing as much as I hear now about so many GA crashes. Perhaps, as information now spreads lightning fast, thanks to RUclips, LiveATC, etc., it only seems that there are a lot more GA crashes these days as compared to the pre-RUclips days. Fly safe, everyone!
This may be the case. GA, esp. single engine land category has always been rife with accidents, and maybe the internet only brings this to light, but I am also concerned that the age of the existing fleet may be a factor. Many of these airframes were never intended to fly for 30, 40 or 50 years. Metal fatigue, esp. in the spars and bolts, may have something to do with it. Even ultrasonic inspection cannot discover every possible point of fatigue over time. Few new GA planes are being built and those that are may be too expensive for most of us to acquire. 😔.
As a Rocket owner, Ill be following this... I have and use an autopilot, but in addition to that, whenever I am IFR, I always have my G5 in ADI mode so that I have two horizons, one vacuum driven and one solid state. Do not take IFR lightly folks. Also, I cannot recommend a stormscope and ADS-b weather capabilities enough.
The fellow who sold me my 172 died that way. He purchased a 210, and tried to duck out of a cloud, as he had been able to do in the Cessna 172. There’s a big difference between doing that at 100 mph and 250 mph. . .
I’m 65 and the bad news is, I can tell my reaction time isn’t what it was.. no more than a second or so, mind you, but that one second in a moving vehicle of any type can be lethal. I have health issues so I don’t get out much, but to keep my mind sharp, I do what any other self-respecting Aviation fan would do - read what YOU Aviators do! Always interesting and thought-provoking!
I'm 60 and the biggest thing I've noticed is that my eyes don't refocus as quickly as they used to. That means when I'm driving I have to allow more time and space so I can take a good look and not just a glance because I can miss cars.
72 years old and glad I sold my little Cessna 140 when I did…PPL at 58…500 hrs TT. Was fun but now I tend to consider driving as a calculated risk. About my recreational flying time?…”Your hobby is not supposed to kill you.”
This has been discussed a bit on Mooneyspace. One contributing factor may have been, he appeared to be flying an approach for 10L, but was then cleared to land 10R. If he’d dialed in the approach into one of his WAAS Garmins, autopilot may have started flying him back towards a fix for that approach, adding to workload saturation and possibly spatial disorientation...
If you have to land on side runway just a few hundred feet from first one, and you will be able to see it under the 1,000 agl ceiling, it will be quite stupid to start distracting yourself from approach duties by trying to input new numbers on FMS or other device. Only a lazy idiot will do that. I dont think an IFR pilot will do such stupid task.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Under IFR, a pilot does not have the authority to fly one approach and then side step to a parallel runway when he breaks out. That's why we have ATC to keep aircraft separated when the pilots can't see each other. If a problem with the FMS programming was discovered that close to the airport it's time to confess to ATC and work it out while flying in a straight line until told otherwise.
There seem to have been an *awfully* lot of GA and small biz plane crashes this year. Are there really more of them or is it just that channels such as this one, Dan Gryders', and others are bringing them to YT now and as a result, they seem more frequent?
Non-Pilot here. I noticed one of the pictures of him in the cockpit, he had an Oxygen Cannula on. Is this something GA pilots will do to lessen the effects of altitude?
A Mooney is a strong plane. I've never heard of anyone breaking one up. Maybe that led him to a false sense of security, where he knew he was too fast, and knew there was a risk, but he thought the plane could handle it. Va is a thing, even in a Mooney. Incredibly sad story.
I own a Mooney. There are a few cases of it I’ve read on Mooneyspace but it’s extremely rare. Usually a thunderstorm encounter etc. if he was near Vne or near it he’d be far above Va too. In my M20E model Va depending on weight is 132mph or lower. Vne is 180 mph. With ceilings at only 1100 when he popped out of the clouds he wouldn’t have much time to recover by the time he realized which way was up. He needed to have power pulled far before then. My E model with less power is extremely slippery it’d be very hard to slow it down in this scenario with that little altitude to play with. It’s a little hard for me to keep the plane under Vne on a descents due to the low drag unless I pull the power back pretty far. I also don’t have speed brakes. My first descent I approached Vne as I was attempting to get under a shelf and was just learning the Mooney, they are slippery fast.
The pilot of 56Z, a good friend, normally did very meticulous radio work. His contacts with tower on this flight were uncharacteristically skimpy to the point that it's clear to me that he was distracted in the closing minututes of this relatively straightfoward and not-particularly-challenging ILS approach in relatively non-challenging weather, and a flight that he had made (KAXN to KFCM) at least 5 times that I know of in the preceding couple of weeks and many times prior to that. The flight appears to have been routine, right up until it wasn't, on approach. Taking it all together, I have to wonder whether or not he suddenly found himself having to work an unexpected problem at the most critical aspect of the flight. Autopilot failure, AI failure, suction failure...I don't know but to me that makes more sense than just Kobe Bryant-level spatial disorientation. He was an experienced, long-time pilot who flew a lot. Something like loss of attitude instrumentation in the clouds is something to ponder in this case.
Be nice if the NTSB can figure out if he lost suction or something! Do you know if he had glass AI in that plane or any AI digital backup like an AHRS on an Ipad or something?
@@gringoloco8576 No glass, not even a G5. I don't know if his AI was suction or electric. If had to bet, at this point, my guess would be loss of AI (and autopilot) on approach, in the clouds, at 2500 feet
Saw that video…made me sick to my stomach. Had the exact same assessment when I got that door video paused at the point where the tail was just touching the ground. Could clearly see both wings folded. Without trying to “arm chair pilot” I commented that either simple structural failure, or pilot induced structural failure. Don’t think it’ll take too long for the NTSB to male a determination on this one though. My condolences to the victims loved ones & friends.
Really like your channel, very informative. Being a pilot and retired firefighter I think you cover wildland fires pretty good. Why does you tube not (de-monetizes) like those reports on wild fires (you mentioned on the Oroville power plant video)? And lastly, this may be ck for some but what does Blancolirio mean? I know blanco is white in Spanish…. Lily white?
@@lizj5740 cool thanks, makes sense now! Just watched a vid of his and learned he is an ex 141 driver out of Travis. I had a relative that was a141 flt engineer there, before his time though and another that flew a c-5s at Travis. Small world.
Well the original V-35 Bonanza was 165 hp 160 mph plane had a 14 inch long fixed portion the V-tail then they extended it to 2-inches with no fed spar until the stub spar and cuff AD mod mid came out in 1986 the Va speeds were limited to under 145 mph
Juan suppose you were a doctor with no previous flight experience. What steps could you take to ensure you could handle a Bonanza or Mooney safely? How long would it take? Is there anything that can be done to kill the "doctor killer" designation of these planes? Obviously these planes don't deserve their label. Obviously they can be operated safely by properly trained and experienced people. How do you obtain the chops to do it?
@@blancolirio That would be too sensible, wouldn't it? So you believe these planes should not fly IFR? Is there no height of the qualifications bar that could render IFR safe in these planes? If you won't do it, and you're a professional, that says a lot.
Have you seen any updates on this accident? As a Mooney owner and pilot I am very interested in the outcome of the investigation. From what I have read a Mooney wing can survive around 11 G’s. There is an old story on the west coast of a Mooney surviving at least 9 G’s in a thunder storm over CA and safely landing afterwards.
An IFR-rated PPL tends to be a risky proposition. Shooting an ILS at most every few months is simply insufficient practice for the real deal - unexpectedly entering dubious weather with such limited experience can lead to an accident like this. Retaining genuine IFR proficiency calls for very frequent exposure to IMC conditions. "Every now and then" simply does not cut it.
The V-tailed doctor killer comment reminds me of all the signage put up on the mountain roads around Brisbane Qld. Middle-aged blokes on powerful motorcycles don't make the bends as they might have done in their youth when such machines were out of reach.
@@heidimj1380 The early Bonanza Model 35 (1947 intro) and models thru the early ‘80s were V tail models. From the mid/ late ‘50s Beech built a conventional tail Model 33, known as the Debonaire and it had a lower hp engine.It was the ‘price leader’ of the line.Eventually the V tail structural issues were corrected on new aircraft and retrofitted to the older fleet. But by that time a lot of damage had been done to the V tail reputation. The earliest V tail Bonanzas had more wing issues than tail problems. However, as model development proceeded, the tail surfaces were increased in size without a commensurate beefing up of the tail. The Debonaire went away as a nameplate when Beech discontinued V tails and the straight tail models assumed the Bonanza name and upscale features.
It’s very easy for some of us older males to want and finally be able to obtain more machine than we have the skill to operate safely. Empty nest, retire the mortgage and cash in the ira. I’ve heard the new mid engine corvette has a built in “self limiter” to reduce its throttle response for it’s first few thousand miles to let its new owners get used to its amazing power. I’m sure there are a lot of people flying that can afford more performance than they can handle.
If you slow that crash video down, the wing were not folded when it first appears on this camera. The Fran right before it hits the ground shows the wings folding.
I remember a Mooney promotional photo with 20 or 30 workers of the build production staff of Mooney all standing on the wings of one plane to show the structural strength of these birds. You have to do a lot of ham handed flying to break the wings. However, there was an AD a while back for a failure problem with the tail trim pitch assembly. There was at least one if not a couple tail separation accidents due to that, but I don't think the 20M was included on the model list.
My Father just bought a Mooney M2 0J and as a private pilot myself I’m going to have to learn how to fly it. It makes me feel good though sir because I’m 6 foot four 300 pounds. If 20 or 30 guys can stand on the wings then that gives me some feeling of relief when I step on the black to get inside the airplane. My dad said that Mooneys have one long wing spar from wingtip to wingtip.
@@gmccord1970 Absolutely no disrespect intended….but with your height and girth I think you will find the snug cockpit of the Mooney not an easy aircraft to enter and exit and it will likely be an extremely tight fit once in place. I have owned an flown an M20J for several hundred hours. Hope it works out for you, they are great airplanes.
@@gmccord1970 Indeed. The Mooney has legroom for days. I'm 6 feet, 200 lbs, and it only feels snug if someone of similar size or larger is in the right seat. I love sliding the seat back and fully extending my legs on a long flight. The Meridian, on the other hand....
My Dad got into a situation in his '82 A-36 Bonanza where he encounter a vertical wind shear that threw him up 2k feet then dropped him down 3k feet in a vertical dive all while IFR he was lucky to pull out of this situation by the skin of his teeth and finally leveling out at about 500 agl. The only evidence of the situation was two small wrinkles on the underside of the wings. And yes a full inspection was done on the airframe. That bird if still flying today. Maybe this poor fellow encountered a similar situation.....
The Mooney is a very strong plane, with tubular airframe and one piece through wing spar. I am surprised it has a structural failure, but if you pull too many G's you can break it. The point Juan was alluding to with gear up the Mooney is low drag and will build up speed very fast when pointed nose down. A C172 or C-182 will not wind up the speed as fast due to fixed gear and struts.
A 90s aircraft is not too old though you don't know the hours, a private owned plane probably does not have the hours where structural failure is at all likely. It sounds like his probable cause is correct.
@@mykofreder1682 The fact that the Horizontal Stab and elevator failed and BOTH wings failed in the same place is likely an overload. The metallurgy will be able to tell if it was over stress not fatigue.
I witnessed the crash of a Mooney M20 at Reno Stead almost exactly two years ago. The NTSB report hasn't been finished yet and the FAA inputs to the final report aren't finished yet, either. There were two critical injuries. The pilot flying was not licensed but was with his instructor, and a rear-seat passenger, coming in from the Burning Man temporary airport. The instructor apparently never took over control of the aircraft and was the most-seriously injured. Why the report has not been finished, I don't know, and the local FSDO manager is soon to retire.
Good analysis and a warning that even as low as 2,500 of altitude, modern aircraft can build speed quickly. Sounds as though this pilot would have benefitted from more autopilot instruction.
Note: I'm referring to the sheet metal joint on the wing NOT the continuous wing spar.
👍🏽
I posted this video on the Mooney board and it was quickly pointed out that the good doctor purchased the aircraft in 2012. He got his instrument rating in 2016 not his PPSEL. It’s an important distinction.
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
@@kjackles not according to the FAA records....
Roger that Juan, caught that on the rewatch. I think you nailed this one - don't forget to file your report with the DTSB 😉
Absolutely brilliant evaluation. The crash location is 3 miles from our house and family friend witnessed the crash. It indeed was overcast at the time of the accident with showers and heavier weather at times throughout the day. I’ve flown thousands of hours from KFCM and your explanation was exactly what I’ve shared with friends and neighbors. I’m retired from Delta/Northwest with 41 years and 30k hours. Well done as usual Juan, blue side up.
You ain't no pilot
The video doesn't seem to show any precipitation or weather happening in the area of the crash when it happened. If you look at the roof of the cars in the video, there isn't any rain drops. There's a slight breeze that is affecting small branches but not the larger branches. Looks to me under 15 knots, hardly enough to cause the plane to break up in mid flight.
@@TheChrisJones Here in the Twin Cities we had scattered thunderstorms on and off and spotty all day. You can certainly have weather at 2000 feet and quiet conditions a mile or less away at ground level. Come visit our dynamic and deadly weather.
I was at the crash site moments after impact, and it was NOT raining and hadn’t for some time. Skies were overcast.
@@michaelmartinez1345 yes it did..exceeding the vne by a bunch
The NTSB spokesman stated that the plane had been descending at over 5,000 fpm before the crash, and also advised that pieces of the left hand horizontal stab and elevator were found two blocks away from the impact area. The spokesman also said there was some data available from the aircraft.
It looks like it was what you said. A loss of situational awareness followed by the high rate of descent, and a last minute hard pull that overstressed the aircraft.
This reminds me of an airshow I went to many years ago at Dobbins AFB. The local ANG had one of their F-4's on display. Someone walked up and asked the guy behind the rope if the Phantom was an "all weather" aircraft. The GBTR replied: "Yes, the F-4 is an all weather aircraft, but the pilots are not always all weather pilots.." . So true.
A good pilot always knows his limitations...and his aircraft's. Another good report, Juan.
I watch ADSB exchange often..and while it's just an sliver of true operations, military pilots I see tend to operate largely in unchallenging weather conditions...the commercials do it weekly to daily. I don't see complicated landing paths from the military...I do see it from commercial ops.
@@justinhaase8825 I was sitting under the eves of my house watching one heavy lightning rain hail event and out of the super low ceiling came a Marine F-18 followed by his wingman a minute later. One even appeared to get hit by lightning or at least cause a strike. I was blown away.
Whether you’re covering fire, drought or aircraft, you do a GREAT job.
Great job Juan. I'm not an IFR pilot but owned a M20 with the 200hp and logged over 1200 hours in 7 years with never an incident. I knew my limitation and respected the characteristics of this slippery aircraft. If you're not on your game, this aircraft will fly you.
I’ve been a passenger in a MOONEY on several occasions with a pilot friend of mine, it’s a great little airplane, really fast, a bit tight inside but comfortable, again Juan thanks for helping us non aviators to fully understand what happened in this unfortunate accident
I used to work at a Mooney repair shop. It would take ALOT to fold the wings up. They are a very strong airframe.!!
Overstress any airframe and you can easily get the same results.
Yes, a lot.
@@hudsondonnell444 the Mooney wing spar is known to be unusually strong compared to most other GA aircraft though. I own one. It is a single long piece of steel. Other models like piper have sections and bolts. I’ve heard of cases of Mooneys surviving thunderstorm encounters with estimates of 9Gs of force. Much of the frame was torqued but the plane and wing spar - survived.
@@hudsondonnell444you must be fun at parties and to fly with
Horrible year for GA accidents. Thank you for your report and analysis Juan.
Thanks for keeping us posted Juan.
Thanks for the excellent video, Juan. I wondered if you would cover this one. The two passengers were a well-known couple from my home town.
That sucks man. Sorry for ur loss
Steve how did you know them. Jim was my ex father in law and Jake was my brother in law.
@@mitchsmith9742 Sorry for your loss. I didn't know them personally, but I know this is having a big impact on folks I know in Libby. I watch a lot of these aviation accident reports and it's always someone else and never involves anyone I have any connection to. But when it involves two people from a tiny town in Montana where I grew up, it hits home and reminds you that this kind of tragedy can happen to anyone.
Thanks Juan for covering these types of GA accidents, while unfortunate we can all learn from them. As you noted, the Mooney is sleek, fast and sexy looking, but as attractive as those attributes are they can work against you if you’re not on top of your game. Reminds us that while we may have an Instrument rating, instrument proficiency and experience in actual IMC is critical, especially in a high performance single like the Mooney. I remember my first instructors warning when I expressed interest in the Mooney, “fast, but unforgiving.”
Excellent analysis with little to no speculation as the video and pictures showed the wings folded up and the pieces of the aircraft found away from the crash site. What cannot be known is what the pilot was thinking or wat control inputs were made. We do know there was some kind of structural failure. Good job Juan.
Just a note to those of you that think this is all just snuff entertainment. We pilots want to know every little detail of this kind of thing so we don't repeat it. Especially when you're riding with us.
Hey BrYan, ( no capital Y ) I agree wholeheartedly, I used to subscribe to the ASA newsletter and follow almost every accident analysis website to LEARN!!. I've had family and friends accuse me of having a " morbid curiosity " and then question why I would ever want to engage in that activity?? I don't get it and am tired of trying to explain it. I suppose few people other than those in aviation understand! I personally would want others to learn and benefit from any incident that I was unfortunate enough to experience! Thanks for letting me rattle on! Stay Safe!
@@johnreed8872 Totally understand & agree. You have to keep improving & know the links in the chain that lead to the accident & be able to break at least one. Some poor soul often has paid for specific new information or just a reminder. Gotta make it count.
I work in aviation on the sharp end on the ground. I’ve seen people I know die in fiery balls. I know many others who’ve died over the years. I totally agree about post crash discussion. To stifle debate around safety matters is never a good thing. I know there’s that “armchair QB speculation is a big no no” but I always think it’s good to talk. Knowledge is key.
This guy is well qualified to provide his initial facts and analysis. As an instrument rated M20-J pilot, I find this info valueable. If you don't like it, don't watch it and save your keyboard warrior rants.
Agreed. However, it should not be monetized when it is about a crash. If Juan wants to do a public service announcement, great. This clip is monetized, as is the clip about N560AR which used *my* pictures and is monetized. I've emailed Juan twice now to demonetize it. This is very upsetting. If it is not demonetized later today, I will be forced to issue a copyright takedown notice to RUclips. I do NOT want to do this, as we need to learn from the situations of others and all become better pilots. He has shared some valuable information, but I cannot be part of any monetization process regarding the loss of life. Juan has now dragged ME into this. Not cool. We just need to do this without making money on it.
I was flying my Cessna 140 with a retired UAL Captain in the right seat. I was doing some maneuvres just learned and lost control. That airplane got up to 160 mph very quick. My passenger was coaching me not to pull up too hard. I was extremely amazed how fast that airplane accelerated going straight down. Learned a good lesson.
Wow adrenaline city!! 😳😬
Yep, I was practicing accelerated stalls, with instructor, in a Cessna 150. In my inexperience, I stepped on the wrong rudder while in the “power-on” stall and she rolled over and down, fast…which overwhelmed my inputs! Probably 130mph very quickly. My instructor first pulled power to idle and then eased us up at maybe 2g’s(initially) to level, all very calmly and quickly. I learned a lot that flight. We had over 3,000’ below us, though, in clear sunny sky.
If in the clouds? Oh my!
That should be practiced in a simulator, though…how to read those instruments, fast, in the clouds in unusual attitudes. Except, vestibular effects and control loading don’t happen in a sim.
@@Andrew-13579 sounds like a really good lesson with a really good instructor on board. glad you are ok.
Stalled inverted at the top of a loop and split S to recovery and wrapping up the airspeed to red. After recovery and straight and level I said Idiot why didn’t I pull back the throttle? Events will happen quicker than the brain can react sometimes. The little bi-plane was new to me and I unexpectedly tested it for max airspeed and flutter.
Underwear change??
A LOT of crashes lately...disturbing. Keeping you busy man! Thanks for your updates.
Another sad state of events JB. Very sad RIP to the surgeon and his family.
Thanks for your updates and new reporting.
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏽🤟🏽
I live a few miles from Flying Cloud and fly out of there often. Saturday morning we had thunderstorms in the area, but by afternoon, it was just off and on light rain and 1000 foot ceilings. For that reason I doubt any break up was induced by turbulence.
Thanks for this. I watched the doorbell video of the crash and it didn't appear to me that the weather could have caused on in flight breakup either. It wasn't raining at the time, and there was only a moderate breeze at the time, certainty not enough to cause it to break up I would think.
i live a half mile from the crash and it was one of the worst feeling seen it come down. If you know deer run golf course that’s where i was when i saw it go down
Thank you for the analysis and information. So sad. May they RIP 😞
Deepest condolences to family and loved ones. So sad. Such grief.
As a ground kissing pax, always appreciate what can be learned on this channel. Thanks for sharing.
As always I have been waiting for your report. Thanks for explaining this accident in terms we all can understand. As for the atc being asked for help, when was the last time you told a doctor how to preform brain surgery and he listened!!
Thanks for all you do!
Just would like to say Dr.Edney was a tenant at the Millard Airport were iam employed. It always hits you hard when you know the pilot in these incidents, no matter what the issue were. Thank you for you incite!
Thank you for this excellent report, as usual. I would struggle to appreciate the details in most reports anywhere else. My condolences to anyone affected or close to the victims. My hope is that this will contribute to some additional safety measures being added to the aviation community, in particular for this size of aircraft.
Reminds me of that old saying that safety regs are written in the blood of its victims. RIP to all in this tragedy.
Excellent as always Juan. This happened a few miles from my home, and even closer to my workplace.
The crash site is located next to a local bar that would have been very busy on Saturday, a few yards east and there could have been incredible loss of life.
Let me tell you what it's like for a very low time (approx 100 hrs) newly licensed pilot to fly into a cloud at night. Scenario - I was stationed in New Orleans in the mid 1960s on active duty with the Coast Guard and got my Private SEL at New Orleans Lakefront airport. I loved to fly at night and was gung-ho about learning about instrument flying. I would occasionally fly out over Lake Pontchartrain at night on clear VFR nights to simulate instrument flight. One night, I was flying a Cessna 172 with a couple of non-pilot Coast Guard buddies out west of New Orleans. Suddenly, the cockpit was lit up with the reflection of my outside navigation lights from inside a cloud. I immediately went on the instruments and started a standard rate left turn. During the course of the turn, my muscles tightened up in my arms and it felt like I was putting about 50 lbs of forward pressure on the yoke to keep the instruments right. I didn't dare look away from the instrument panel until one of my passengers said he could see a light. The instruments were saying one thing and my body wanted to do something else and it was both mentally and physically very stressful. After getting clear of the cloud, I noticed that despite my virtual downforce, I had climbed about 100 ft during the turn-around. It was an unbelievably scary experience.
Learning later in life immediately puts you on the back foot. Experience in life is not sufficient to overcome inexperience in the air. Also you get considerably less bold as you get older and to be honest, many older pilots are a pain in the arse with instructors and examiners. This often means the scary bits of flying are not taught in as much depth as they should be and too many are passed when maybe they should not. I can remember many times when I flew and had an attack of the leans and I have also lost control in the air (through gross stupidity). Each of these was a learning experience that made me a better pilot. Where age and relative inexperience bites you in the arse is not recognising when things are starting to go wrong and not taking the correct action when they do.
ps. Experience is not long haul 30,000 hours with two landings every month, it’s 30,000 flights in various conditions over various terrains.
I can confirm he's held his PPL well before 2016. The FAA database shows the most recent update/change to your certificate. I believe it's likely the Instrument rating was added in 2016.
Thank you Blanco! I'm not a pilot but I've always been interested in aviation and a love for aircraft. These crash evaluations are heartbreaking but necessary. If I were a pilot, these reports would be a crucial learning tool to keep from having the same misfortune.
I’m a Mooney owner, too. Very strong and well made. Took a lot of G to break one up in flight. Very sad to hear this report.
Are you a surgeon too?
I was just thinking, how many G's would you need to pull in a plane like that to fold the wings up?
@@aaronwhite1786 the accident team will likely figure that out, but lots. Was told by someone the wings could take six Gs. Not sure if that is correct or not. However, If the pilot got into a graveyard spiral, with some smash (in the yellow arc or red), a sudden yank to pull it out would load the aircraft up pretty substantially.
@@xeldinn86 no, professional pilot
@RedLiver mine is a 62 model, still fine. This is a close inspection item for annuals.
Accident aircraft has a previous incident on record--an off runway excursion; ran off end of runway during an emergency landing.
Professional and informative as always. Thank you Juan. Condolences to Family, friends and loved ones R.I.P.
✝️ Blessings ✝️
Juan. Would you think about teaching us what you mean by fast and efficient small aircraft, as it relates to loss of control in IMC? When we are training under the hood in a Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior, we loose concentration in a turn the nose drops and we can find ourselves 30 knots faster and 200 feet lower before the instructor says something. He is trying to see if the student notices and what the student will do when they realize their mistake. How much faster does a Mooney or Bonanza gain speed when the same mistake is made in those aircraft? It is substantial. Maintaining a solid approach in a 172, 182 or Cherokee is much easier and much more forgiving than a Mooney I think
Actually not that much difference, 30 kt is still a lot, but loosing 200 ft can happen easily, mooneys are faster and heavier but they are also more stable than a Cessna. But once you did a mistake like wrong trim mooneys require more muscle force to correct it, actually so much muscle that it can overwhelm someone who is not physically fit, getting mentally behind a mooney is a lot more unforgiving.
This has all the hallmarks of spatial disorientation resulting in a spiral dive and overstressing and structural failure. Look at the FR24 path in three dimensions and you’ll see it. Several maneuvers including heading and altitude changes, then a spiraling, descending turn to the left just before impact.
Here are the ASOS and METARs from Glencoe and Flying Cloud at that time:
KGYL 072235Z AUTO 06007KT 10SM OVC008 23/21 A2977 RMK AO2 T02270205
KFCM 072235Z AUTO 08010KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF
KFCM 072240Z AUTO 08008KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF
And it’s not much different for the several hours before and after the accident.
Turbulence from departing/decaying thunderstorm outflow could certainly be a factor in the initial upset, but I doubt it. To support the possible (but unlikely) thunderstorm outflow hypothesis, I will point out an additional ASOS report from KFCM ~30 minutes prior to the accident:
KFCM 072215Z AUTO 08011KT 10SM OVC011 22/20 A2977 RMK T02200200 LTG DSNT S! MADISHF
This storm was 20-30 miles SE of KFCM and there was no discernible outflow to the west on radar (reflectivity or velocity).
I’m thinking more task-saturation and spatial disorientation in IMC while maneuvering for the approach.
just because youre IFR certified doesnt mean that you should go out looking for trouble. this one hurts more than most
What the hell does that mean???? “Going out looking for trouble?” This was benign IMC conditions with an 1100 foot overcast. The whole point of an IFR rating is to be able to fly in weather. You must be qualified and proficient but “going out looking for trouble” is a ridiculous statement.
As a complete bystander just listening in on these conversations, I am more and more amazed at the volume and quantity (and seriously irreversible consequences) of variables, "must do", "must not do", etc. that are dealt with even by experienced pilots, either airline professionals or GA like this 72 year old. Life and death skills required in multi-tasking--with a very high price tag if the pilot gets behind or gets confused.
You got it right. Flying is NOT as easy as driving a car, and the consequences of doing it "wrong" are often fatal. At some point, better technology may change that but it's certainly not here yet.
Malcom, that’s one reason I never got past 200 hours. You can’t just “skid off to the side of the sky” and get it resorted out like a car.
Sad to hear. I'm just learning about aviation and i watch every one of your videos religiously. Thank you for all you do.
I lost the engine on an e model in February, 100 feet off the ground shortly after take off. Landed on a highway overpass. Rear ended a car.
Interesting insurance company call!
I own an E , dang that sucks...about the worst timing possible at 100 AGL! Is she totaled I assume?
Excellent job! Ur explanations are very insightful and ur experience shows up every time u report on these unfortunate accidents. Keep up the great work.
SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS PRAYING 🙏 FOR THE FAMILY. So SAD
My sympathies to the pilot and his family passengers. According to our local newspaper in Kalispell, MT, the passengers were the pilot's stepson and the stepson's wife. The wife was a physician in Libby, MT and the stepson worked for the local county health department. In 1992, I was partners with two physicians in an A-36 Bonanza. One of them died in a very similar weather-related crash at Peachtree-Dekalb airport north of Atlanta, GA. He was not instrument rated and flew into low ceiling and visibility at night on a return trip from Florida. Fortunately, he was alone. Having a good autopilot and the knowledge of how to use it is a must in single-pilot complex airplane operations. It could save your life unless the weather is extreme.
The tail has to go away first, either the elevator or horizontal, aircraft pitches up or down then the wings fold, seen it before, when pieces are not at the accident site
Saw the damage from a similar incident about 10 years ago with the exact same make and model of aircraft. The pilot survived the incident but the plane was beyond repair with wings rippled outboard of the landing gear at basically the same place that the wings separated in the accident you are describing. The pilot stated the plane went into a stall and descended over 9000 feet before he was able to gain control just before impact to the ground near the airport and he was able to land safely. The pilot stated in this incident that on a instrument approach to the airport a autopilot malfunction put the plane in a sudden pitch up situation. When being disassembled, the salvage company employee stated he had never seen a Mooney with wings bent that close to separation.
✈✈✈ Did my own close look at this accident this morning as part of my ongoing independent research, saw something that no one else has mentioned so far. It appears that just before the loss of control, the altitude is held perfectly while the groundspeed decays to something really slow just after leveling off after a descent. My best early guess is that the pilot pulled the power back for the descent, let the autopilot level the airplane, then he forgot to add power when the airplane leveled. Speed decayed, then a stall or at least an autopilot disconnect while in IMC, and at that point the pilot let speed build up then pulled back and overstressed the airframe.
good research.
@@markonw6661 I'm a controller and a flight instructor, and with every fiber of my being I strongly encourage any pilot who "gets behind the airplane" to calmly ask us controllers for help if they need it. The exact help needed will vary from one situation to another, but sometimes all it takes from the pilot is an "unable" or "standby".
I did my retract & constant speed training in M20s at RACWA in Perth Western Australia. Juan's description is identical to my instructor.
Its a great plane for what its designed to do - go from A to B fast. But that has to be respected. This is not a plane that can be stalled without lots of space. I've done my aerobatics endorsement so I understand controlled stalls and spins. The M20 is not a Cessna or a Pitts. It has a full laminar flow wing which is how it gets that performance.
The issue wit stalling a full laminar flow wing is the time and speed it takes to re-establish the laminar flow.
As Juan would know this is also true for many other high performance aircraft from Lancairs through biz jets up to commercial passenger jets.
Best to all
"over stressed" the air frame! meaning...'G force' load on the wings caused them to buckle and lift up? İf the load was that great, is it possible that the folks in the cabin were passed out as well? Maybe all the way to impact!
Auto pilot wouldn’t control air speed? Just directional ability?
Instead of voluntarily training in the simulator every six months, I now train in the simulator with my instrument flight instructor every other month. Even though the insurance company doesn’t care about my proficiency.
Great idea, Art, and train like a prizefighter, because you have to win, every time you're in the elements. Two small tips from this former CFII: Trim the airplane (aviate), and know where you are, at all times, including altitude (navigate).
I think this is the first time I've heard of someone breaking a Mooney wing spar in flight... I've heard of two incidents where the pilot pulled north of 10Gs and landed alive... Usually the tail surfaces separate from flutter before the wing can be loaded enough to break it.
5:17 - Cannula. Is it normal for a GA pilot to be on oxygen? Expect the NTSB to look at medical. If not the NTSB, the DTSB.
I just looked at that pilots last few flights on flightaware and they didn't look very good. Lots of airspeed and altitude changes flight paths were not very stable. Mechanical problem getting worse? Rusty pilot? I am wondering whether this uptick in GA accidents can be attributed to rusty pilots due to lack of flying during the pandemic.
Good observation, even though the data can be kinda rough.
Thanks for another video!
Honestly, if there weren't pictures of the wing folded up, I wouldnt believe it. I've only got a few dozen hours in Moonies and I couldn't think of a better, more solid design. It was always a pleasure flying them.
That took some incredible Gs to do that.
Sad news for all involved. Silver lining is It’s a miracle no one on the ground was injured. It crashed in the only area that didn’t have people or a building.
I had to slow the security camera video all the way down and pretty much frame by frame it... the way those wings were folded up, it looks like there was a joint right under the belly that let go. I've seen a few comments regarding how strong the airframe is on a Mooney, but is that spar one continuous piece from wing tip to wing tip? Or is there a joint in the middle of the fuselage that might have failed?
It could be just a truck my eyes are playing too, depending on how the belly of that plane was painted, and I'm no pilot, or AME, I'm just some guy who knows how to break things made out of metal, wood, plastic, and just about every other material out there.
I had to google Mooney wing spar images to get a good diagram of the internal structures. It helped a lot kind of like an autopsy would :)
@@normadesmond9659 Do you have a link?
@@GrizzAxxemann just put Mooney wing spar in your search bar and click images. Lots come up.
@@normadesmond9659 Lots of Pipers came up. Stupid Google.
Another great informative video, thanks Juan.
I worked for Mooney for several years, I am trying to figure out how you fold the wings on a single spar wing.....where was the failure? how does the single spar snap like that? I know how they are built.....single spar wings shouldn't snap like that.....
If it was bad weather I’m wondering about a rogue wind gust - more specifically maybe a microburst at altitude? I don’t even know if that’s even possible..
I plotted his maximum descent at a min of -30,000fpm. That’s 296kts straight down. An abrupt pull out at that speed is going to break the airframe.
@@kjackles seriously 30,000 fpm? how do you do that?
I recently found that a piper malibu plane N444DT crashed almost a year ago. I'm not an invited reader of Kathryn's Report and can't seem to find information anywhere else about this plane.
I'm booted off also...
Looking at the door cam video the wing looks intact as the Mooney is falling, tail low, about the height of the roof to the left. In the next frame the tail is just touching the ground and the wings both appear to have folded straight up into a vertical position.
Juan - I really enjoy the channel and the in depth analysis you do.
Would you consider doing a video on the BRS and how these latest two accidents could’ve been affected had a BRS been used ???
Also - Have you considered a BRS for your personal aircraft ? Why or why not ???
Thanks - PNR
Out of the envelope, too fast….
The M20 has a carry-through wing spar - no joints. Incredible loads are needed to fold it, I didn't know that was possible. That must've been quite a spiral and given the elevator was sheared off, guessing that the reaction was to pull back on the column.
I had always heard the Mooneys had a wildly strong wing
It's a one piece wing that broke the machine stress testing
As a former GA pilot, I have always seriously questioned the ability for most non-commercial pilots to safely perform single pilot IFR flights, especially with the older “steam gauge” flight instruments. I know in my own experience, I would often enlist a second experienced, instrument rated pilot to accompany me on flights where weather could require approaches to minimums.
Glass cockpits, IFR certified GPS and a good autopilot can do a great deal to lesson the pilot workload in IMC. Instrument flying is serious business. Too often pilots with relatively low time and ample financial resources get in over their head quickly in such situations.
Knowing your personal limitations and NEVER EXCEEDING them is the key to staying alive.
Your last sentence rings true for survival and success in the market also
I like to be slowed down with gear down at the final approach fix. It helps a lot for stability.
This! it's impossible to explain to amateur pilots how deadly serious it is to hand fly, single-pilot, in IMC. Getting the rating is easy; getting to the point where you can safely do it by yourself, at night and in bad weather isn't. Strangely enough, though, once you clear that hurdle through regular IFR/IMC flying, it becomes almost routine.
@@jiyushugi1085 this! Is the time to worry and be the most sketchy time. Good luck
I quit flying in 2006 but while I was an active PPL, between the years of 1998 and 2006, I don't recall hearing as much as I hear now about so many GA crashes. Perhaps, as information now spreads lightning fast, thanks to RUclips, LiveATC, etc., it only seems that there are a lot more GA crashes these days as compared to the pre-RUclips days. Fly safe, everyone!
This may be the case. GA, esp. single engine land category has always been rife with accidents, and maybe the internet only brings this to light, but I am also concerned that the age of the existing fleet may be a factor. Many of these airframes were never intended to fly for 30, 40 or 50 years. Metal fatigue, esp. in the spars and bolts, may have something to do with it. Even ultrasonic inspection cannot discover every possible point of fatigue over time. Few new GA planes are being built and those that are may be too expensive for most of us to acquire. 😔.
The accident aircraft was not an M20J, Juan was just standing besides that model as he spoke. The accident aircraft was an M20M.
I think I saw that plane at the MAPA pilot proficiency program at Atlantic City in 2019. Damn.
As a Rocket owner, Ill be following this... I have and use an autopilot, but in addition to that, whenever I am IFR, I always have my G5 in ADI mode so that I have two horizons, one vacuum driven and one solid state. Do not take IFR lightly folks. Also, I cannot recommend a stormscope and ADS-b weather capabilities enough.
Thank you for an informative review of this incident.
The fellow who sold me my 172 died that way. He purchased a 210, and tried to duck out of a cloud, as he had been able to do in the Cessna 172. There’s a big difference between doing that at 100 mph and 250 mph. . .
Thankyou for explaining the planes structure limitations and the effect of going outside that envelope.
📈
I’m 70 now and don’t even drive my car on bad weather days.
I’m still fearless, not foolish🤠
I’m 65 and the bad news is, I can tell my reaction time isn’t what it was.. no more than a second or so, mind you, but that one second in a moving vehicle of any type can be lethal. I have health issues so I don’t get out much, but to keep my mind sharp, I do what any other self-respecting Aviation fan would do - read what YOU Aviators do! Always interesting and thought-provoking!
I'm 60 and the biggest thing I've noticed is that my eyes don't refocus as quickly as they used to. That means when I'm driving I have to allow more time and space so I can take a good look and not just a glance because I can miss cars.
@@johnkeith2450 Being sharp may not be enough when the failure of a cheap part can be terminal.
I am same way at 67.....I am capable, but avoid night time driving if at all possible.....
72 years old and glad I sold my little Cessna 140 when I did…PPL at 58…500 hrs TT. Was fun but now I tend to consider driving as a calculated risk. About my recreational flying time?…”Your hobby is not supposed to kill you.”
This has been discussed a bit on Mooneyspace. One contributing factor may have been, he appeared to be flying an approach for 10L, but was then cleared to land 10R. If he’d dialed in the approach into one of his WAAS Garmins, autopilot may have started flying him back towards a fix for that approach, adding to workload saturation and possibly spatial disorientation...
If you have to land on side runway just a few hundred feet from first one, and you will be able to see it under the 1,000 agl ceiling, it will be quite stupid to start distracting yourself from approach duties by trying to input new numbers on FMS or other device. Only a lazy idiot will do that. I dont think an IFR pilot will do such stupid task.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Under IFR, a pilot does not have the authority to fly one approach and then side step to a parallel runway when he breaks out. That's why we have ATC to keep aircraft separated when the pilots can't see each other. If a problem with the FMS programming was discovered that close to the airport it's time to confess to ATC and work it out while flying in a straight line until told otherwise.
There seem to have been an *awfully* lot of GA and small biz plane crashes this year. Are there really more of them or is it just that channels such as this one, Dan Gryders', and others are bringing them to YT now and as a result, they seem more frequent?
Non-Pilot here.
I noticed one of the pictures of him in the cockpit, he had an Oxygen Cannula on.
Is this something GA pilots will do to lessen the effects of altitude?
Yes. The pilot must use oxygen if the cabin altitude is over 12,500 ft for more than 30 minutes or over 14,000 ft for any length of time.
Yes.
A Mooney is a strong plane. I've never heard of anyone breaking one up. Maybe that led him to a false sense of security, where he knew he was too fast, and knew there was a risk, but he thought the plane could handle it. Va is a thing, even in a Mooney. Incredibly sad story.
I own a Mooney. There are a few cases of it I’ve read on Mooneyspace but it’s extremely rare. Usually a thunderstorm encounter etc. if he was near Vne or near it he’d be far above Va too. In my M20E model Va depending on weight is 132mph or lower. Vne is 180 mph.
With ceilings at only 1100 when he popped out of the clouds he wouldn’t have much time to recover by the time he realized which way was up. He needed to have power pulled far before then. My E model with less power is extremely slippery it’d be very hard to slow it down in this scenario with that little altitude to play with. It’s a little hard for me to keep the plane under Vne on a descents due to the low drag unless I pull the power back pretty far. I also don’t have speed brakes. My first descent I approached Vne as I was attempting to get under a shelf and was just learning the Mooney, they are slippery fast.
The pilot of 56Z, a good friend, normally did very meticulous radio work. His contacts with tower on this flight were uncharacteristically skimpy to the point that it's clear to me that he was distracted in the closing minututes of this relatively straightfoward and not-particularly-challenging ILS approach in relatively non-challenging weather, and a flight that he had made (KAXN to KFCM) at least 5 times that I know of in the preceding couple of weeks and many times prior to that. The flight appears to have been routine, right up until it wasn't, on approach. Taking it all together, I have to wonder whether or not he suddenly found himself having to work an unexpected problem at the most critical aspect of the flight. Autopilot failure, AI failure, suction failure...I don't know but to me that makes more sense than just Kobe Bryant-level spatial disorientation. He was an experienced, long-time pilot who flew a lot. Something like loss of attitude instrumentation in the clouds is something to ponder in this case.
Be nice if the NTSB can figure out if he lost suction or something! Do you know if he had glass AI in that plane or any AI digital backup like an AHRS on an Ipad or something?
@@gringoloco8576 No glass, not even a G5. I don't know if his AI was suction or electric. If had to bet, at this point, my guess would be loss of AI (and autopilot) on approach, in the clouds, at 2500 feet
Saw that video…made me sick to my stomach. Had the exact same assessment when I got that door video paused at the point where the tail was just touching the ground. Could clearly see both wings folded. Without trying to “arm chair pilot” I commented that either simple structural failure, or pilot induced structural failure. Don’t think it’ll take too long for the NTSB to male a determination on this one though. My condolences to the victims loved ones & friends.
NTSB will take 3 years to announce they don’t know what happened amirite?
Really like your channel, very informative. Being a pilot and retired firefighter I think you cover wildland fires pretty good. Why does you tube not (de-monetizes) like those reports on wild fires (you mentioned on the Oroville power plant video)? And lastly, this may be ck for some but what does Blancolirio mean? I know blanco is white in Spanish…. Lily white?
Yes, White Lily. Originally, his wife, Jeni's, channel, but about 13 years ago Juan wanted to post a video, and the rest is history.
@@lizj5740 cool thanks, makes sense now! Just watched a vid of his and learned he is an ex 141 driver out of Travis. I had a relative that was a141 flt engineer there, before his time though and another that flew a c-5s at Travis. Small world.
So many crashes this year..unbelievable...
I’ve always wondered could the wings collapse due to a massive microburst?
Well the original V-35 Bonanza was 165 hp 160 mph plane had a 14 inch long fixed portion the V-tail then they extended it to 2-inches with no fed spar until the stub spar and cuff AD mod mid came out in 1986 the Va speeds were limited to under 145 mph
Juan suppose you were a doctor with no previous flight experience. What steps could you take to ensure you could handle a Bonanza or Mooney safely? How long would it take? Is there anything that can be done to kill the "doctor killer" designation of these planes? Obviously these planes don't deserve their label. Obviously they can be operated safely by properly trained and experienced people. How do you obtain the chops to do it?
Remain VFR like I do in all my light airplane flying.
@@blancolirio That would be too sensible, wouldn't it? So you believe these planes should not fly IFR? Is there no height of the qualifications bar that could render IFR safe in these planes? If you won't do it, and you're a professional, that says a lot.
How long would it take a professional pilot to play surgeon on the weekends and be proficient?
Are these the first pictures showing an aircraft's wings in that position in such a situation?
Have you seen any updates on this accident?
As a Mooney owner and pilot I am very interested in the outcome of the investigation. From what I have read a Mooney wing can survive around 11 G’s. There is an old story on the west coast of a Mooney surviving at least 9 G’s in a thunder storm over CA and safely landing afterwards.
An IFR-rated PPL tends to be a risky proposition. Shooting an ILS at most every few months is simply insufficient practice for the real deal - unexpectedly entering dubious weather with such limited experience can lead to an accident like this. Retaining genuine IFR proficiency calls for very frequent exposure to IMC conditions. "Every now and then" simply does not cut it.
Hey Juan, I have a still image that shows wings still intact at 20 feet above the ground.
The V-tailed doctor killer comment reminds me of all the signage put up on the mountain roads around Brisbane Qld. Middle-aged blokes on powerful motorcycles don't make the bends as they might have done in their youth when such machines were out of reach.
Sometimes too much machine for the operator. Isn't the Bonanza the v tail, though? I'm not a pilot (yet) so maybe a dumb question!
Yes indeed!
@@heidimj1380 The early Bonanza Model 35 (1947 intro) and models thru the early ‘80s were V tail models. From the mid/ late ‘50s Beech built a conventional tail Model 33, known as the Debonaire and it had a lower hp engine.It was the ‘price leader’ of the line.Eventually the V tail structural issues were corrected on new aircraft and retrofitted to the older fleet. But by that time a lot of damage had been done to the V tail reputation. The earliest V tail Bonanzas had more wing issues than tail problems. However, as model development proceeded, the tail surfaces were increased in size without a commensurate beefing up of the tail.
The Debonaire went away as a nameplate when Beech discontinued V tails and the straight tail models assumed the Bonanza name and upscale features.
@@raycoleman3183 thank you for taking the time to share that info! I'm always fascinated...
It’s very easy for some of us older males to want and finally be able to obtain more machine than we have the skill to operate safely. Empty nest, retire the mortgage and cash in the ira. I’ve heard the new mid engine corvette has a built in “self limiter” to reduce its throttle response for it’s first few thousand miles to let its new owners get used to its amazing power. I’m sure there are a lot of people flying that can afford more performance than they can handle.
What happened to 1071Y you were standing in front of? It's been de-registered.
If you slow that crash video down, the wing were not folded when it first appears on this camera. The Fran right before it hits the ground shows the wings folding.
Juan, can you give us a link to the ATC tapes at the time of his approach ??
See description above.
Oh Juan I’m so sorry to hear this. Goodness. Any is too many.💔
Experiencing disorientation once or twice in my life, the recovery is very difficult.
Lack of situational awareness and spatial orientation due to flying in IMC?
Non pilot here. Just wondering, since he had around 1100 feet to use, why would he have been in the overcast to begin with?
Severe turbulence? Could that have folded the wings?
@@weschilton Mostly likely scenario, I agree.
No, Wings folded when they broke cloud cover and inputted too much correction it is assumed.
I remember a Mooney promotional photo with 20 or 30 workers of the build production staff of Mooney all standing on the wings of one plane to show the structural strength of these birds. You have to do a lot of ham handed flying to break the wings. However, there was an AD a while back for a failure problem with the tail trim pitch assembly. There was at least one if not a couple tail separation accidents due to that, but I don't think the 20M was included on the model list.
My Father just bought a Mooney M2 0J and as a private pilot myself I’m going to have to learn how to fly it. It makes me feel good though sir because I’m 6 foot four 300 pounds. If 20 or 30 guys can stand on the wings then that gives me some feeling of relief when I step on the black to get inside the airplane. My dad said that Mooneys have one long wing spar from wingtip to wingtip.
@@gmccord1970 Absolutely no disrespect intended….but with your height and girth I think you will find the snug cockpit of the Mooney not an easy aircraft to enter and exit and it will likely be an extremely tight fit once in place. I have owned an flown an M20J for several hundred hours. Hope it works out for you, they are great airplanes.
@@raycoleman3183 I’m an ex bodybuilder/personal trainer. It’s not my girth I’m worried about. don’t assume all big guys are fat and out of shape
@@gmccord1970 Indeed. The Mooney has legroom for days. I'm 6 feet, 200 lbs, and it only feels snug if someone of similar size or larger is in the right seat. I love sliding the seat back and fully extending my legs on a long flight. The Meridian, on the other hand....
@@gmccord1970 upon reflection, my post was inappropriate and I apologize.
Used to use an M20 as an instrument trainer -complex aircraft for a flight school. Liked it.
My Dad got into a situation in his '82 A-36 Bonanza where he encounter a vertical wind shear that threw him up 2k feet then dropped him down 3k feet in a vertical dive all while IFR he was lucky to pull out of this situation by the skin of his teeth and finally leveling out at about 500 agl. The only evidence of the situation was two small wrinkles on the underside of the wings. And yes a full inspection was done on the airframe. That bird if still flying today. Maybe this poor fellow encountered a similar situation.....
So thankful your dad had altitude to work with, even though he gained more than he originally expected on the beginning. Kudos to your dad.
The Mooney is a very strong plane, with tubular airframe and one piece through wing spar. I am surprised it has a structural failure, but if you pull too many G's you can break it. The point Juan was alluding to with gear up the Mooney is low drag and will build up speed very fast when pointed nose down. A C172 or C-182 will not wind up the speed as fast due to fixed gear and struts.
A 90s aircraft is not too old though you don't know the hours, a private owned plane probably does not have the hours where structural failure is at all likely. It sounds like his probable cause is correct.
@@mykofreder1682 The fact that the Horizontal Stab and elevator failed and BOTH wings failed in the same place is likely an overload. The metallurgy will be able to tell if it was over stress not fatigue.
Possible instrument or vacuum pump failure?
A backup like a Dynon D3 or Garmin G5 at a minimum seems like a reasonable precaution.
Could you report on turboprop crash between Columbus and Dayton Ohio on Thursday afternoon 8/19 with pilot Dr Beerman at the controls
I witnessed the crash of a Mooney M20 at Reno Stead almost exactly two years ago. The NTSB report hasn't been finished yet and the FAA inputs to the final report aren't finished yet, either. There were two critical injuries. The pilot flying was not licensed but was with his instructor, and a rear-seat passenger, coming in from the Burning Man temporary airport. The instructor apparently never took over control of the aircraft and was the most-seriously injured. Why the report has not been finished, I don't know, and the local FSDO manager is soon to retire.
Excellent report, thank you.
Aren't these nicknamed Doctor Killers or something like that?
Good analysis and a warning that even as low as 2,500 of altitude, modern aircraft can build speed quickly. Sounds as though this pilot would have benefitted from more autopilot instruction.