Mooney M20-M Crash N9156Z Victoria MN 8/7/21
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
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Note: I'm referring to the sheet metal joint on the wing NOT the continuous wing spar.
👍🏽
I posted this video on the Mooney board and it was quickly pointed out that the good doctor purchased the aircraft in 2012. He got his instrument rating in 2016 not his PPSEL. It’s an important distinction.
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
@@kjackles not according to the FAA records....
Roger that Juan, caught that on the rewatch. I think you nailed this one - don't forget to file your report with the DTSB 😉
Absolutely brilliant evaluation. The crash location is 3 miles from our house and family friend witnessed the crash. It indeed was overcast at the time of the accident with showers and heavier weather at times throughout the day. I’ve flown thousands of hours from KFCM and your explanation was exactly what I’ve shared with friends and neighbors. I’m retired from Delta/Northwest with 41 years and 30k hours. Well done as usual Juan, blue side up.
You ain't no pilot
The video doesn't seem to show any precipitation or weather happening in the area of the crash when it happened. If you look at the roof of the cars in the video, there isn't any rain drops. There's a slight breeze that is affecting small branches but not the larger branches. Looks to me under 15 knots, hardly enough to cause the plane to break up in mid flight.
@@TheChrisJones Here in the Twin Cities we had scattered thunderstorms on and off and spotty all day. You can certainly have weather at 2000 feet and quiet conditions a mile or less away at ground level. Come visit our dynamic and deadly weather.
I was at the crash site moments after impact, and it was NOT raining and hadn’t for some time. Skies were overcast.
@@michaelmartinez1345 yes it did..exceeding the vne by a bunch
Whether you’re covering fire, drought or aircraft, you do a GREAT job.
The NTSB spokesman stated that the plane had been descending at over 5,000 fpm before the crash, and also advised that pieces of the left hand horizontal stab and elevator were found two blocks away from the impact area. The spokesman also said there was some data available from the aircraft.
It looks like it was what you said. A loss of situational awareness followed by the high rate of descent, and a last minute hard pull that overstressed the aircraft.
This reminds me of an airshow I went to many years ago at Dobbins AFB. The local ANG had one of their F-4's on display. Someone walked up and asked the guy behind the rope if the Phantom was an "all weather" aircraft. The GBTR replied: "Yes, the F-4 is an all weather aircraft, but the pilots are not always all weather pilots.." . So true.
A good pilot always knows his limitations...and his aircraft's. Another good report, Juan.
I watch ADSB exchange often..and while it's just an sliver of true operations, military pilots I see tend to operate largely in unchallenging weather conditions...the commercials do it weekly to daily. I don't see complicated landing paths from the military...I do see it from commercial ops.
@@justinhaase8825 I was sitting under the eves of my house watching one heavy lightning rain hail event and out of the super low ceiling came a Marine F-18 followed by his wingman a minute later. One even appeared to get hit by lightning or at least cause a strike. I was blown away.
Thanks Juan for covering these types of GA accidents, while unfortunate we can all learn from them. As you noted, the Mooney is sleek, fast and sexy looking, but as attractive as those attributes are they can work against you if you’re not on top of your game. Reminds us that while we may have an Instrument rating, instrument proficiency and experience in actual IMC is critical, especially in a high performance single like the Mooney. I remember my first instructors warning when I expressed interest in the Mooney, “fast, but unforgiving.”
I’ve been a passenger in a MOONEY on several occasions with a pilot friend of mine, it’s a great little airplane, really fast, a bit tight inside but comfortable, again Juan thanks for helping us non aviators to fully understand what happened in this unfortunate accident
I was flying my Cessna 140 with a retired UAL Captain in the right seat. I was doing some maneuvres just learned and lost control. That airplane got up to 160 mph very quick. My passenger was coaching me not to pull up too hard. I was extremely amazed how fast that airplane accelerated going straight down. Learned a good lesson.
Wow adrenaline city!! 😳😬
Yep, I was practicing accelerated stalls, with instructor, in a Cessna 150. In my inexperience, I stepped on the wrong rudder while in the “power-on” stall and she rolled over and down, fast…which overwhelmed my inputs! Probably 130mph very quickly. My instructor first pulled power to idle and then eased us up at maybe 2g’s(initially) to level, all very calmly and quickly. I learned a lot that flight. We had over 3,000’ below us, though, in clear sunny sky.
If in the clouds? Oh my!
That should be practiced in a simulator, though…how to read those instruments, fast, in the clouds in unusual attitudes. Except, vestibular effects and control loading don’t happen in a sim.
@@Andrew-13579 sounds like a really good lesson with a really good instructor on board. glad you are ok.
Stalled inverted at the top of a loop and split S to recovery and wrapping up the airspeed to red. After recovery and straight and level I said Idiot why didn’t I pull back the throttle? Events will happen quicker than the brain can react sometimes. The little bi-plane was new to me and I unexpectedly tested it for max airspeed and flutter.
Underwear change??
Thanks for the excellent video, Juan. I wondered if you would cover this one. The two passengers were a well-known couple from my home town.
That sucks man. Sorry for ur loss
Steve how did you know them. Jim was my ex father in law and Jake was my brother in law.
@@mitchsmith9742 Sorry for your loss. I didn't know them personally, but I know this is having a big impact on folks I know in Libby. I watch a lot of these aviation accident reports and it's always someone else and never involves anyone I have any connection to. But when it involves two people from a tiny town in Montana where I grew up, it hits home and reminds you that this kind of tragedy can happen to anyone.
Let me tell you what it's like for a very low time (approx 100 hrs) newly licensed pilot to fly into a cloud at night. Scenario - I was stationed in New Orleans in the mid 1960s on active duty with the Coast Guard and got my Private SEL at New Orleans Lakefront airport. I loved to fly at night and was gung-ho about learning about instrument flying. I would occasionally fly out over Lake Pontchartrain at night on clear VFR nights to simulate instrument flight. One night, I was flying a Cessna 172 with a couple of non-pilot Coast Guard buddies out west of New Orleans. Suddenly, the cockpit was lit up with the reflection of my outside navigation lights from inside a cloud. I immediately went on the instruments and started a standard rate left turn. During the course of the turn, my muscles tightened up in my arms and it felt like I was putting about 50 lbs of forward pressure on the yoke to keep the instruments right. I didn't dare look away from the instrument panel until one of my passengers said he could see a light. The instruments were saying one thing and my body wanted to do something else and it was both mentally and physically very stressful. After getting clear of the cloud, I noticed that despite my virtual downforce, I had climbed about 100 ft during the turn-around. It was an unbelievably scary experience.
Horrible year for GA accidents. Thank you for your report and analysis Juan.
A LOT of crashes lately...disturbing. Keeping you busy man! Thanks for your updates.
I used to work at a Mooney repair shop. It would take ALOT to fold the wings up. They are a very strong airframe.!!
Overstress any airframe and you can easily get the same results.
Yes, a lot.
@@hudsondonnell444 the Mooney wing spar is known to be unusually strong compared to most other GA aircraft though. I own one. It is a single long piece of steel. Other models like piper have sections and bolts. I’ve heard of cases of Mooneys surviving thunderstorm encounters with estimates of 9Gs of force. Much of the frame was torqued but the plane and wing spar - survived.
@@hudsondonnell444you must be fun at parties and to fly with
Learning later in life immediately puts you on the back foot. Experience in life is not sufficient to overcome inexperience in the air. Also you get considerably less bold as you get older and to be honest, many older pilots are a pain in the arse with instructors and examiners. This often means the scary bits of flying are not taught in as much depth as they should be and too many are passed when maybe they should not. I can remember many times when I flew and had an attack of the leans and I have also lost control in the air (through gross stupidity). Each of these was a learning experience that made me a better pilot. Where age and relative inexperience bites you in the arse is not recognising when things are starting to go wrong and not taking the correct action when they do.
ps. Experience is not long haul 30,000 hours with two landings every month, it’s 30,000 flights in various conditions over various terrains.
Great job Juan. I'm not an IFR pilot but owned a M20 with the 200hp and logged over 1200 hours in 7 years with never an incident. I knew my limitation and respected the characteristics of this slippery aircraft. If you're not on your game, this aircraft will fly you.
Just a note to those of you that think this is all just snuff entertainment. We pilots want to know every little detail of this kind of thing so we don't repeat it. Especially when you're riding with us.
Hey BrYan, ( no capital Y ) I agree wholeheartedly, I used to subscribe to the ASA newsletter and follow almost every accident analysis website to LEARN!!. I've had family and friends accuse me of having a " morbid curiosity " and then question why I would ever want to engage in that activity?? I don't get it and am tired of trying to explain it. I suppose few people other than those in aviation understand! I personally would want others to learn and benefit from any incident that I was unfortunate enough to experience! Thanks for letting me rattle on! Stay Safe!
@@johnreed8872 Totally understand & agree. You have to keep improving & know the links in the chain that lead to the accident & be able to break at least one. Some poor soul often has paid for specific new information or just a reminder. Gotta make it count.
I work in aviation on the sharp end on the ground. I’ve seen people I know die in fiery balls. I know many others who’ve died over the years. I totally agree about post crash discussion. To stifle debate around safety matters is never a good thing. I know there’s that “armchair QB speculation is a big no no” but I always think it’s good to talk. Knowledge is key.
This guy is well qualified to provide his initial facts and analysis. As an instrument rated M20-J pilot, I find this info valueable. If you don't like it, don't watch it and save your keyboard warrior rants.
Agreed. However, it should not be monetized when it is about a crash. If Juan wants to do a public service announcement, great. This clip is monetized, as is the clip about N560AR which used *my* pictures and is monetized. I've emailed Juan twice now to demonetize it. This is very upsetting. If it is not demonetized later today, I will be forced to issue a copyright takedown notice to RUclips. I do NOT want to do this, as we need to learn from the situations of others and all become better pilots. He has shared some valuable information, but I cannot be part of any monetization process regarding the loss of life. Juan has now dragged ME into this. Not cool. We just need to do this without making money on it.
Another sad state of events JB. Very sad RIP to the surgeon and his family.
Thanks for your updates and new reporting.
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏽🤟🏽
Excellent analysis with little to no speculation as the video and pictures showed the wings folded up and the pieces of the aircraft found away from the crash site. What cannot be known is what the pilot was thinking or wat control inputs were made. We do know there was some kind of structural failure. Good job Juan.
As a ground kissing pax, always appreciate what can be learned on this channel. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent as always Juan. This happened a few miles from my home, and even closer to my workplace.
The crash site is located next to a local bar that would have been very busy on Saturday, a few yards east and there could have been incredible loss of life.
My sympathies to the pilot and his family passengers. According to our local newspaper in Kalispell, MT, the passengers were the pilot's stepson and the stepson's wife. The wife was a physician in Libby, MT and the stepson worked for the local county health department. In 1992, I was partners with two physicians in an A-36 Bonanza. One of them died in a very similar weather-related crash at Peachtree-Dekalb airport north of Atlanta, GA. He was not instrument rated and flew into low ceiling and visibility at night on a return trip from Florida. Fortunately, he was alone. Having a good autopilot and the knowledge of how to use it is a must in single-pilot complex airplane operations. It could save your life unless the weather is extreme.
Thanks for keeping us posted Juan.
I’m a Mooney owner, too. Very strong and well made. Took a lot of G to break one up in flight. Very sad to hear this report.
Are you a surgeon too?
I was just thinking, how many G's would you need to pull in a plane like that to fold the wings up?
@@aaronwhite1786 the accident team will likely figure that out, but lots. Was told by someone the wings could take six Gs. Not sure if that is correct or not. However, If the pilot got into a graveyard spiral, with some smash (in the yellow arc or red), a sudden yank to pull it out would load the aircraft up pretty substantially.
@@xeldinn86 no, professional pilot
@RedLiver mine is a 62 model, still fine. This is a close inspection item for annuals.
Instead of voluntarily training in the simulator every six months, I now train in the simulator with my instrument flight instructor every other month. Even though the insurance company doesn’t care about my proficiency.
Great idea, Art, and train like a prizefighter, because you have to win, every time you're in the elements. Two small tips from this former CFII: Trim the airplane (aviate), and know where you are, at all times, including altitude (navigate).
I lost the engine on an e model in February, 100 feet off the ground shortly after take off. Landed on a highway overpass. Rear ended a car.
Interesting insurance company call!
I own an E , dang that sucks...about the worst timing possible at 100 AGL! Is she totaled I assume?
Just would like to say Dr.Edney was a tenant at the Millard Airport were iam employed. It always hits you hard when you know the pilot in these incidents, no matter what the issue were. Thank you for you incite!
Honestly, if there weren't pictures of the wing folded up, I wouldnt believe it. I've only got a few dozen hours in Moonies and I couldn't think of a better, more solid design. It was always a pleasure flying them.
That took some incredible Gs to do that.
I’m 70 now and don’t even drive my car on bad weather days.
I’m still fearless, not foolish🤠
I’m 65 and the bad news is, I can tell my reaction time isn’t what it was.. no more than a second or so, mind you, but that one second in a moving vehicle of any type can be lethal. I have health issues so I don’t get out much, but to keep my mind sharp, I do what any other self-respecting Aviation fan would do - read what YOU Aviators do! Always interesting and thought-provoking!
I'm 60 and the biggest thing I've noticed is that my eyes don't refocus as quickly as they used to. That means when I'm driving I have to allow more time and space so I can take a good look and not just a glance because I can miss cars.
@@johnkeith2450 Being sharp may not be enough when the failure of a cheap part can be terminal.
I am same way at 67.....I am capable, but avoid night time driving if at all possible.....
72 years old and glad I sold my little Cessna 140 when I did…PPL at 58…500 hrs TT. Was fun but now I tend to consider driving as a calculated risk. About my recreational flying time?…”Your hobby is not supposed to kill you.”
As always I have been waiting for your report. Thanks for explaining this accident in terms we all can understand. As for the atc being asked for help, when was the last time you told a doctor how to preform brain surgery and he listened!!
Thanks for all you do!
This has all the hallmarks of spatial disorientation resulting in a spiral dive and overstressing and structural failure. Look at the FR24 path in three dimensions and you’ll see it. Several maneuvers including heading and altitude changes, then a spiraling, descending turn to the left just before impact.
Here are the ASOS and METARs from Glencoe and Flying Cloud at that time:
KGYL 072235Z AUTO 06007KT 10SM OVC008 23/21 A2977 RMK AO2 T02270205
KFCM 072235Z AUTO 08010KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF
KFCM 072240Z AUTO 08008KT 10SM OVC011 22/19 A2977 RMK T02200190 MADISHF
And it’s not much different for the several hours before and after the accident.
Turbulence from departing/decaying thunderstorm outflow could certainly be a factor in the initial upset, but I doubt it. To support the possible (but unlikely) thunderstorm outflow hypothesis, I will point out an additional ASOS report from KFCM ~30 minutes prior to the accident:
KFCM 072215Z AUTO 08011KT 10SM OVC011 22/20 A2977 RMK T02200200 LTG DSNT S! MADISHF
This storm was 20-30 miles SE of KFCM and there was no discernible outflow to the west on radar (reflectivity or velocity).
I’m thinking more task-saturation and spatial disorientation in IMC while maneuvering for the approach.
Thank you for this excellent report, as usual. I would struggle to appreciate the details in most reports anywhere else. My condolences to anyone affected or close to the victims. My hope is that this will contribute to some additional safety measures being added to the aviation community, in particular for this size of aircraft.
Reminds me of that old saying that safety regs are written in the blood of its victims. RIP to all in this tragedy.
I quit flying in 2006 but while I was an active PPL, between the years of 1998 and 2006, I don't recall hearing as much as I hear now about so many GA crashes. Perhaps, as information now spreads lightning fast, thanks to RUclips, LiveATC, etc., it only seems that there are a lot more GA crashes these days as compared to the pre-RUclips days. Fly safe, everyone!
This may be the case. GA, esp. single engine land category has always been rife with accidents, and maybe the internet only brings this to light, but I am also concerned that the age of the existing fleet may be a factor. Many of these airframes were never intended to fly for 30, 40 or 50 years. Metal fatigue, esp. in the spars and bolts, may have something to do with it. Even ultrasonic inspection cannot discover every possible point of fatigue over time. Few new GA planes are being built and those that are may be too expensive for most of us to acquire. 😔.
As a complete bystander just listening in on these conversations, I am more and more amazed at the volume and quantity (and seriously irreversible consequences) of variables, "must do", "must not do", etc. that are dealt with even by experienced pilots, either airline professionals or GA like this 72 year old. Life and death skills required in multi-tasking--with a very high price tag if the pilot gets behind or gets confused.
You got it right. Flying is NOT as easy as driving a car, and the consequences of doing it "wrong" are often fatal. At some point, better technology may change that but it's certainly not here yet.
Malcom, that’s one reason I never got past 200 hours. You can’t just “skid off to the side of the sky” and get it resorted out like a car.
I live a few miles from Flying Cloud and fly out of there often. Saturday morning we had thunderstorms in the area, but by afternoon, it was just off and on light rain and 1000 foot ceilings. For that reason I doubt any break up was induced by turbulence.
Thanks for this. I watched the doorbell video of the crash and it didn't appear to me that the weather could have caused on in flight breakup either. It wasn't raining at the time, and there was only a moderate breeze at the time, certainty not enough to cause it to break up I would think.
i live a half mile from the crash and it was one of the worst feeling seen it come down. If you know deer run golf course that’s where i was when i saw it go down
Thank you Blanco! I'm not a pilot but I've always been interested in aviation and a love for aircraft. These crash evaluations are heartbreaking but necessary. If I were a pilot, these reports would be a crucial learning tool to keep from having the same misfortune.
I can confirm he's held his PPL well before 2016. The FAA database shows the most recent update/change to your certificate. I believe it's likely the Instrument rating was added in 2016.
As a former GA pilot, I have always seriously questioned the ability for most non-commercial pilots to safely perform single pilot IFR flights, especially with the older “steam gauge” flight instruments. I know in my own experience, I would often enlist a second experienced, instrument rated pilot to accompany me on flights where weather could require approaches to minimums.
Glass cockpits, IFR certified GPS and a good autopilot can do a great deal to lesson the pilot workload in IMC. Instrument flying is serious business. Too often pilots with relatively low time and ample financial resources get in over their head quickly in such situations.
Knowing your personal limitations and NEVER EXCEEDING them is the key to staying alive.
Your last sentence rings true for survival and success in the market also
I like to be slowed down with gear down at the final approach fix. It helps a lot for stability.
This! it's impossible to explain to amateur pilots how deadly serious it is to hand fly, single-pilot, in IMC. Getting the rating is easy; getting to the point where you can safely do it by yourself, at night and in bad weather isn't. Strangely enough, though, once you clear that hurdle through regular IFR/IMC flying, it becomes almost routine.
@@jiyushugi1085 this! Is the time to worry and be the most sketchy time. Good luck
Sad news for all involved. Silver lining is It’s a miracle no one on the ground was injured. It crashed in the only area that didn’t have people or a building.
The fellow who sold me my 172 died that way. He purchased a 210, and tried to duck out of a cloud, as he had been able to do in the Cessna 172. There’s a big difference between doing that at 100 mph and 250 mph. . .
✈✈✈ Did my own close look at this accident this morning as part of my ongoing independent research, saw something that no one else has mentioned so far. It appears that just before the loss of control, the altitude is held perfectly while the groundspeed decays to something really slow just after leveling off after a descent. My best early guess is that the pilot pulled the power back for the descent, let the autopilot level the airplane, then he forgot to add power when the airplane leveled. Speed decayed, then a stall or at least an autopilot disconnect while in IMC, and at that point the pilot let speed build up then pulled back and overstressed the airframe.
good research.
@@markonw6661 I'm a controller and a flight instructor, and with every fiber of my being I strongly encourage any pilot who "gets behind the airplane" to calmly ask us controllers for help if they need it. The exact help needed will vary from one situation to another, but sometimes all it takes from the pilot is an "unable" or "standby".
I did my retract & constant speed training in M20s at RACWA in Perth Western Australia. Juan's description is identical to my instructor.
Its a great plane for what its designed to do - go from A to B fast. But that has to be respected. This is not a plane that can be stalled without lots of space. I've done my aerobatics endorsement so I understand controlled stalls and spins. The M20 is not a Cessna or a Pitts. It has a full laminar flow wing which is how it gets that performance.
The issue wit stalling a full laminar flow wing is the time and speed it takes to re-establish the laminar flow.
As Juan would know this is also true for many other high performance aircraft from Lancairs through biz jets up to commercial passenger jets.
Best to all
"over stressed" the air frame! meaning...'G force' load on the wings caused them to buckle and lift up? İf the load was that great, is it possible that the folks in the cabin were passed out as well? Maybe all the way to impact!
Auto pilot wouldn’t control air speed? Just directional ability?
The Mooney is a very strong plane, with tubular airframe and one piece through wing spar. I am surprised it has a structural failure, but if you pull too many G's you can break it. The point Juan was alluding to with gear up the Mooney is low drag and will build up speed very fast when pointed nose down. A C172 or C-182 will not wind up the speed as fast due to fixed gear and struts.
A 90s aircraft is not too old though you don't know the hours, a private owned plane probably does not have the hours where structural failure is at all likely. It sounds like his probable cause is correct.
@@mykofreder1682 The fact that the Horizontal Stab and elevator failed and BOTH wings failed in the same place is likely an overload. The metallurgy will be able to tell if it was over stress not fatigue.
I think this is the first time I've heard of someone breaking a Mooney wing spar in flight... I've heard of two incidents where the pilot pulled north of 10Gs and landed alive... Usually the tail surfaces separate from flutter before the wing can be loaded enough to break it.
Physics is nature's hardliner. It does not give in. I cringed at the sight of the way the wings folded. It's double sad when family members perish with the pilot.
Thank you for the analysis and information. So sad. May they RIP 😞
Sad to hear. I'm just learning about aviation and i watch every one of your videos religiously. Thank you for all you do.
My Dad got into a situation in his '82 A-36 Bonanza where he encounter a vertical wind shear that threw him up 2k feet then dropped him down 3k feet in a vertical dive all while IFR he was lucky to pull out of this situation by the skin of his teeth and finally leveling out at about 500 agl. The only evidence of the situation was two small wrinkles on the underside of the wings. And yes a full inspection was done on the airframe. That bird if still flying today. Maybe this poor fellow encountered a similar situation.....
So thankful your dad had altitude to work with, even though he gained more than he originally expected on the beginning. Kudos to your dad.
just because youre IFR certified doesnt mean that you should go out looking for trouble. this one hurts more than most
What the hell does that mean???? “Going out looking for trouble?” This was benign IMC conditions with an 1100 foot overcast. The whole point of an IFR rating is to be able to fly in weather. You must be qualified and proficient but “going out looking for trouble” is a ridiculous statement.
Excellent job! Ur explanations are very insightful and ur experience shows up every time u report on these unfortunate accidents. Keep up the great work.
Saw the damage from a similar incident about 10 years ago with the exact same make and model of aircraft. The pilot survived the incident but the plane was beyond repair with wings rippled outboard of the landing gear at basically the same place that the wings separated in the accident you are describing. The pilot stated the plane went into a stall and descended over 9000 feet before he was able to gain control just before impact to the ground near the airport and he was able to land safely. The pilot stated in this incident that on a instrument approach to the airport a autopilot malfunction put the plane in a sudden pitch up situation. When being disassembled, the salvage company employee stated he had never seen a Mooney with wings bent that close to separation.
Accident aircraft has a previous incident on record--an off runway excursion; ran off end of runway during an emergency landing.
The pilot of 56Z, a good friend, normally did very meticulous radio work. His contacts with tower on this flight were uncharacteristically skimpy to the point that it's clear to me that he was distracted in the closing minututes of this relatively straightfoward and not-particularly-challenging ILS approach in relatively non-challenging weather, and a flight that he had made (KAXN to KFCM) at least 5 times that I know of in the preceding couple of weeks and many times prior to that. The flight appears to have been routine, right up until it wasn't, on approach. Taking it all together, I have to wonder whether or not he suddenly found himself having to work an unexpected problem at the most critical aspect of the flight. Autopilot failure, AI failure, suction failure...I don't know but to me that makes more sense than just Kobe Bryant-level spatial disorientation. He was an experienced, long-time pilot who flew a lot. Something like loss of attitude instrumentation in the clouds is something to ponder in this case.
Be nice if the NTSB can figure out if he lost suction or something! Do you know if he had glass AI in that plane or any AI digital backup like an AHRS on an Ipad or something?
@@gringoloco8576 No glass, not even a G5. I don't know if his AI was suction or electric. If had to bet, at this point, my guess would be loss of AI (and autopilot) on approach, in the clouds, at 2500 feet
Ugh its perplexing when all the instruments are right in front of you. Wings level consistent altitude and airspeed.
Rip doc and family 🙏
An IFR-rated PPL tends to be a risky proposition. Shooting an ILS at most every few months is simply insufficient practice for the real deal - unexpectedly entering dubious weather with such limited experience can lead to an accident like this. Retaining genuine IFR proficiency calls for very frequent exposure to IMC conditions. "Every now and then" simply does not cut it.
The M20 has a carry-through wing spar - no joints. Incredible loads are needed to fold it, I didn't know that was possible. That must've been quite a spiral and given the elevator was sheared off, guessing that the reaction was to pull back on the column.
I had always heard the Mooneys had a wildly strong wing
It's a one piece wing that broke the machine stress testing
Surgeons are highly sensory driven- everything is tactile and visual. Ignoring senses and trusting the instruments is a very difficult skill for surgeons to learn, especially at an older age. Add a stressful situation, an unforgiving aircraft and the story is all too familiar.
Good analysis and a warning that even as low as 2,500 of altitude, modern aircraft can build speed quickly. Sounds as though this pilot would have benefitted from more autopilot instruction.
Those Mooney King autopilots will fail on you at the worst possible times. I was piloting a Mooney M20K once, and the engage switch for the King autopilot is an electromagnetic switch, which when energized becomes magnetized and fastens to a metal bar to stay on presumably during turbulence. Well said switch must have developed a bad electrical connection, and did not stay magnetized for very long, and promptly disengages with no warning. So when flying any aircraft in IMC, always remember to do your basic scanning often, and expect the autopilot to fail at anytime. Poor souls, RIP.
A Mooney is a strong plane. I've never heard of anyone breaking one up. Maybe that led him to a false sense of security, where he knew he was too fast, and knew there was a risk, but he thought the plane could handle it. Va is a thing, even in a Mooney. Incredibly sad story.
I own a Mooney. There are a few cases of it I’ve read on Mooneyspace but it’s extremely rare. Usually a thunderstorm encounter etc. if he was near Vne or near it he’d be far above Va too. In my M20E model Va depending on weight is 132mph or lower. Vne is 180 mph.
With ceilings at only 1100 when he popped out of the clouds he wouldn’t have much time to recover by the time he realized which way was up. He needed to have power pulled far before then. My E model with less power is extremely slippery it’d be very hard to slow it down in this scenario with that little altitude to play with. It’s a little hard for me to keep the plane under Vne on a descents due to the low drag unless I pull the power back pretty far. I also don’t have speed brakes. My first descent I approached Vne as I was attempting to get under a shelf and was just learning the Mooney, they are slippery fast.
This has been discussed a bit on Mooneyspace. One contributing factor may have been, he appeared to be flying an approach for 10L, but was then cleared to land 10R. If he’d dialed in the approach into one of his WAAS Garmins, autopilot may have started flying him back towards a fix for that approach, adding to workload saturation and possibly spatial disorientation...
If you have to land on side runway just a few hundred feet from first one, and you will be able to see it under the 1,000 agl ceiling, it will be quite stupid to start distracting yourself from approach duties by trying to input new numbers on FMS or other device. Only a lazy idiot will do that. I dont think an IFR pilot will do such stupid task.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Under IFR, a pilot does not have the authority to fly one approach and then side step to a parallel runway when he breaks out. That's why we have ATC to keep aircraft separated when the pilots can't see each other. If a problem with the FMS programming was discovered that close to the airport it's time to confess to ATC and work it out while flying in a straight line until told otherwise.
I just looked at that pilots last few flights on flightaware and they didn't look very good. Lots of airspeed and altitude changes flight paths were not very stable. Mechanical problem getting worse? Rusty pilot? I am wondering whether this uptick in GA accidents can be attributed to rusty pilots due to lack of flying during the pandemic.
Good observation, even though the data can be kinda rough.
Saw that video…made me sick to my stomach. Had the exact same assessment when I got that door video paused at the point where the tail was just touching the ground. Could clearly see both wings folded. Without trying to “arm chair pilot” I commented that either simple structural failure, or pilot induced structural failure. Don’t think it’ll take too long for the NTSB to male a determination on this one though. My condolences to the victims loved ones & friends.
NTSB will take 3 years to announce they don’t know what happened amirite?
The tail has to go away first, either the elevator or horizontal, aircraft pitches up or down then the wings fold, seen it before, when pieces are not at the accident site
Professional and informative as always. Thank you Juan. Condolences to Family, friends and loved ones R.I.P.
✝️ Blessings ✝️
This is a great aircraft I have flown in this aircraft with my uncle who was a WWII fighter pilot instructor Corpus Christi, TX. And flew military aircraft starting at the age of 17 and ending when he voluntarily gave up his ratings at the age of 87. I doubt this like so many other GA accidents was the fault of the aircraft. The most important rule I learned about flying at the tender age of 17 was Rule #1: you never have to takeoff Rule #2: you always have to land as the captain of your ship you should never operate your ship under outside pressure from others or for fear of disappointing someone else. Kobie Bryant, his daughter and the other people who accompanied them on that fateful day would be alive today if the captain of that ship had followed those two rules.
The V-tailed doctor killer comment reminds me of all the signage put up on the mountain roads around Brisbane Qld. Middle-aged blokes on powerful motorcycles don't make the bends as they might have done in their youth when such machines were out of reach.
Sometimes too much machine for the operator. Isn't the Bonanza the v tail, though? I'm not a pilot (yet) so maybe a dumb question!
Yes indeed!
@@heidimj1380 The early Bonanza Model 35 (1947 intro) and models thru the early ‘80s were V tail models. From the mid/ late ‘50s Beech built a conventional tail Model 33, known as the Debonaire and it had a lower hp engine.It was the ‘price leader’ of the line.Eventually the V tail structural issues were corrected on new aircraft and retrofitted to the older fleet. But by that time a lot of damage had been done to the V tail reputation. The earliest V tail Bonanzas had more wing issues than tail problems. However, as model development proceeded, the tail surfaces were increased in size without a commensurate beefing up of the tail.
The Debonaire went away as a nameplate when Beech discontinued V tails and the straight tail models assumed the Bonanza name and upscale features.
@@raycoleman3183 thank you for taking the time to share that info! I'm always fascinated...
It’s very easy for some of us older males to want and finally be able to obtain more machine than we have the skill to operate safely. Empty nest, retire the mortgage and cash in the ira. I’ve heard the new mid engine corvette has a built in “self limiter” to reduce its throttle response for it’s first few thousand miles to let its new owners get used to its amazing power. I’m sure there are a lot of people flying that can afford more performance than they can handle.
As a Rocket owner, Ill be following this... I have and use an autopilot, but in addition to that, whenever I am IFR, I always have my G5 in ADI mode so that I have two horizons, one vacuum driven and one solid state. Do not take IFR lightly folks. Also, I cannot recommend a stormscope and ADS-b weather capabilities enough.
Thankyou for explaining the planes structure limitations and the effect of going outside that envelope.
📈
I had an M20B and had always heard no all-metal Mooney had ever been overstressed -- one of the first ones got spit out of a thunderstorm near Mt Shasta and survived, so, I've always thought they held together; apparently NOT!
Hm. My first thought when I heard the ATC recording was that he was disoriented and possibly partially incapacitated...so I guessed CO poisoning. However...I wasn't aware that he was in IMC at the time. Task saturation and subsequent disorientation would also fit with what we heard on the radio.
Sad.
Deepest condolences to family and loved ones. So sad. Such grief.
Experiencing disorientation once or twice in my life, the recovery is very difficult.
If I was the DTSB, I’d be thinking spatial disorientation in the clouds and over stress from trying to pull out of a high-speed dive, in panic. 🙁
Yeah, it comes up again and again and again in accidents and I'm sure the feeling it "it will never happen to me". Your senses are a complex bodily "system".
I taugh hard maneuvers that for the weak pilots could induce panic. Seen that many times. But if i post Panic Pull, the cowards mild maneuvering maggots that deny their shortcomings will vote it down. The untested in panic will deny they will. So they are not tested. Canada test them with spins before solo. Cant control panic? then go to USA where panicky pilots are certificated every dam day. And that is the reason USA GA is so dam dangerous. Panicky Pilots been certified all over..
Juan. Would you think about teaching us what you mean by fast and efficient small aircraft, as it relates to loss of control in IMC? When we are training under the hood in a Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior, we loose concentration in a turn the nose drops and we can find ourselves 30 knots faster and 200 feet lower before the instructor says something. He is trying to see if the student notices and what the student will do when they realize their mistake. How much faster does a Mooney or Bonanza gain speed when the same mistake is made in those aircraft? It is substantial. Maintaining a solid approach in a 172, 182 or Cherokee is much easier and much more forgiving than a Mooney I think
Actually not that much difference, 30 kt is still a lot, but loosing 200 ft can happen easily, mooneys are faster and heavier but they are also more stable than a Cessna. But once you did a mistake like wrong trim mooneys require more muscle force to correct it, actually so much muscle that it can overwhelm someone who is not physically fit, getting mentally behind a mooney is a lot more unforgiving.
This is definitely one of those unfortunate but classic scenarios with loss of control IMC in a high-performance single. Probably three decades or so ago now, the FAA had a couple of astounding pictures that were kept in materials at their training center in Oklahoma City, one of a Mooney and one of a Bonanza 36 whose pilots had put them through what should have been unsurvivable scenarios in or around thunderstorms, as so many are. I don't remember many of the details, but as I recall, the Mooney had been enroute when control was lost and they estimated that the pilot had pulled something like 6G's when finally breaking out underneath and reacting to the dive he was in, lost consciousness at least once, yet somehow managed to get the airplane back on the ground in one piece--well, sort of. It was still totaled--the wing dihedral was increased by about 10 degrees with rivets popped or missing all over the place. The Bonanza 36 had been flown into an area with large hail. The airplane was almost unrecognizable from the front it was so beaten up, like a piece of scrap metal after a few days of rocks being thrown at it; yet that pilot, also, somehow managed to get it back on the ground in one piece despite wings with no leading edge. As Paul said over on AVweb a few years ago about the Mooney carry-through spar, "You'll pull enough G's to smash your eyeballs flat as manhole covers before you ever break the wings off a Mooney." Hopefully that means that the occupants in this case were never in a position to know or suffer the tragedy. RIP.
I witnessed the crash of a Mooney M20 at Reno Stead almost exactly two years ago. The NTSB report hasn't been finished yet and the FAA inputs to the final report aren't finished yet, either. There were two critical injuries. The pilot flying was not licensed but was with his instructor, and a rear-seat passenger, coming in from the Burning Man temporary airport. The instructor apparently never took over control of the aircraft and was the most-seriously injured. Why the report has not been finished, I don't know, and the local FSDO manager is soon to retire.
Looking at the door cam video the wing looks intact as the Mooney is falling, tail low, about the height of the roof to the left. In the next frame the tail is just touching the ground and the wings both appear to have folded straight up into a vertical position.
Hate to hear this Juan, if a aircraft gets a head of the pilot, the pilot go back to basics, there was only one Chuck Yeager. God bless the families.❤🙏👍🇺🇸
Check Yeager smoked an NF-104, nobody is perfect.
@@xephael3485 But he also could hunt deer with a P-39.
@@bb5242 that's not very sporting! :-P
Excellent review. I would add that many ppl underestimate two key features you referenced: 1) Over-speed tendencies and how easy it is for one of these airplanes to gather speed on an approach (if the airplane is not slowed prior to entering the initial phase of the approach (IF/IAP) it speeds up very fast and you are almost immediately behind the plane depending on the approach; 2) Task saturation. Although 1100 OVC doesn't strike me as overly challenging, it is relatively low, so getting to breakout point is a challenge if one is not extremely proficient and sequenced in their approach management. It is certainly not as easy as it seems especially for those out of proficiency and in a high performance single - they are legit much more of a handful despite what many might think when observing them. Sadly, this looks like classic spatial orientation issues but we shall see...RIP.
Wow, if you can fold up the wings on a Mooney, you're definitely out of control. Sad story.
Found you from your train hopping videos. Cool to see you here, too.
I certainly can't help wondering about a sudden medical emergency. So tragic.
This is the first example I’ve heard of a Mooney in-flight wing spar failure. That wing is a very robust design. I still remember 80’s marketing photos of assembly workers sitting/standing 3 deep on the top of the wing-full span-for a photo op. No airplane design or autopilot can replace the need for proficiency.
Used to use an M20 as an instrument trainer -complex aircraft for a flight school. Liked it.
The sad fact about this is, they could have had another chance if they had had a modern "whole aircraft ballistic parachute rescue system"
Of course, with increasing speed of descend the chances of successfully deploying the parachute also dwindle but some years back we had a very similar case here in Germany involving an ultralight plane with 2 occupants flying into bad weather. In Germany a whole aircraft parachute rescue system is mandatory for all ultralight airplanes. They ended up in the trees in someones garden, totaled the plane and survived.
I wonder if the chute would foul with the wings in that position? If pulled at high speed the chute also is outside of it's working envelope. Unless he decided to pull with a good airplane and was able to slow it down it is less likely to be successful.
I remember a Mooney promotional photo with 20 or 30 workers of the build production staff of Mooney all standing on the wings of one plane to show the structural strength of these birds. You have to do a lot of ham handed flying to break the wings. However, there was an AD a while back for a failure problem with the tail trim pitch assembly. There was at least one if not a couple tail separation accidents due to that, but I don't think the 20M was included on the model list.
My Father just bought a Mooney M2 0J and as a private pilot myself I’m going to have to learn how to fly it. It makes me feel good though sir because I’m 6 foot four 300 pounds. If 20 or 30 guys can stand on the wings then that gives me some feeling of relief when I step on the black to get inside the airplane. My dad said that Mooneys have one long wing spar from wingtip to wingtip.
@@gmccord1970 Absolutely no disrespect intended….but with your height and girth I think you will find the snug cockpit of the Mooney not an easy aircraft to enter and exit and it will likely be an extremely tight fit once in place. I have owned an flown an M20J for several hundred hours. Hope it works out for you, they are great airplanes.
@@raycoleman3183 I’m an ex bodybuilder/personal trainer. It’s not my girth I’m worried about. don’t assume all big guys are fat and out of shape
@@gmccord1970 Indeed. The Mooney has legroom for days. I'm 6 feet, 200 lbs, and it only feels snug if someone of similar size or larger is in the right seat. I love sliding the seat back and fully extending my legs on a long flight. The Meridian, on the other hand....
@@gmccord1970 upon reflection, my post was inappropriate and I apologize.
A sad warning to all of us who fly GA, recreationally, low-hours etc for more thinking, education, training and practice to avoid these IMC accidents. Thanks Juan.
I was at a restaurant about a block away in Victoria when the plane crashed. A couple of the waitresses saw it happen. People rushed out to help, but it was obvious that there was nothing they could do. It was overcast, but not raining or storming. It was very lucky it crashed into a mostly empty lot. The flaming engine rolled up to the house and melted the siding. Floyds Bar is literally right next to that lot, and was busy, full of people. A gas station is right across the street. If it would have landed 100ft east, there probably would have been many more casualties.
The accident aircraft was not an M20J, Juan was just standing besides that model as he spoke. The accident aircraft was an M20M.
Pilot was a well-known and respected doctor in Omaha, Nebraska at the University of Nebraska Medical Center... not the local area in MN.
I never really know if I should like these videos, I appreciate the info but don't like what happened. I hope Juan knows I always give a full view and often watch more than once.
I am not a pilot, but really appreciate your comments and insights. Fascinating to me since I subscribe to your obvious philosophy of doing everything right. The first time. Always. Double check. Check out the Edgar Guest poem “Good Enough.” I had unattached myself from Patreon but will reconnect and make a contribution because of your contributions. Keep up the good work.
Good Enough
Edgar A. Guest
My son, beware of "good enough,"
It isn't made of sterling stuff;
It's something any man can do,
It marks the many from the few,
It has not merit to the eye,
It's something any man can buy,
It's name is but a sham and bluff,
For it is never "good enough."
With "good enough" the shirkers stop
In every factory and shop;
With "good enough" the failures rest
And lose to men who give their best;
With "good enough" the car breaks down
And men fall short of high renown.
My son, remember and be wise
In "good enough" disaster lies.
With "good enough" have ships been wrecked,
The forward march of armies checked,
Great buildings burned and fortunes lost;
Nor can the world compute the cost
In life and money it has paid
Because at "good enough" men stayed.
Who stops at "good enough" shall find
Success has left him far behind.
There is no "good enough" that's short
Of what you can do and ought.
The flaw which may escape the eye
And temporarily get by,
Shall weaken under the strain
And wreck the ship or car or train.
For this is true of men and stuff-
Only the best is "good enough."
Juan, you said that the Mooney operates near yellow arc . . I have been flying my M20J for 1600 hours and it has a very wide green arc. Unless I’m descending with full throttle I get nowhere near the yellow or red line.
Also Moonies are know for their robust wing spar. The fact that one came down with folded wings astonishes me. There is more to this story . . .
Descending…the key word.
I’m a physician and was told by a wise old physician once, “Doctors should never fly airplanes” “So never buy one or I’ll kick your ass!” He was referring to doctors not having the time that it takes to train properly. I agree.
5:17 - Cannula. Is it normal for a GA pilot to be on oxygen? Expect the NTSB to look at medical. If not the NTSB, the DTSB.
I did a power off stall @6000’ with my instructor in I think, a 152. Told my to pull back and hold the yoke. Airplane did a full stall and dropped straight down, looking at terra firma, mostly green. Said drop the yoke and the plane accelerated and righted itself. Applied power and we were on our merry way.
@MrRailcarmover Thanks I always thought it was required. Thanks you learn something new everyday.
I agree as a 66 hr non-ticketed pilot.lol
Sorry, pulled back until it completely stalled, dropped the yoke. Plane went straight down. I’m sure instructor had his feet on the rudder pedals. Gained air-speed, righted itself. What a fun ride. I learned a lot about airplanes that day.
I worked for Mooney for several years, I am trying to figure out how you fold the wings on a single spar wing.....where was the failure? how does the single spar snap like that? I know how they are built.....single spar wings shouldn't snap like that.....
If it was bad weather I’m wondering about a rogue wind gust - more specifically maybe a microburst at altitude? I don’t even know if that’s even possible..
I plotted his maximum descent at a min of -30,000fpm. That’s 296kts straight down. An abrupt pull out at that speed is going to break the airframe.
@@kjackles seriously 30,000 fpm? how do you do that?
You know, when I saw the doorbell video, the plane seemed rather small, as if it was missing its wings. Now, I know why.
Thanks for another video!
Well the original V-35 Bonanza was 165 hp 160 mph plane had a 14 inch long fixed portion the V-tail then they extended it to 2-inches with no fed spar until the stub spar and cuff AD mod mid came out in 1986 the Va speeds were limited to under 145 mph
Juan - I really enjoy the channel and the in depth analysis you do.
Would you consider doing a video on the BRS and how these latest two accidents could’ve been affected had a BRS been used ???
Also - Have you considered a BRS for your personal aircraft ? Why or why not ???
Thanks - PNR
Out of the envelope, too fast….
I owned an 1989 M20-M. They are very capable planes. I don’t think any of them didn’t come without an autopilot, dual batteries, dual alternators, backup vacuum system, speed brakes and everything modern at the time of manufacture. We of course don’t know what updated equipment was on board. The ILS approach for this shouldn’t have been a big deal, a functional autopilot could do most of the work. The key word here is functional. Slowly decaying HSI with vacuum loss could be a good cause and I had it happen to me in visual conditions. I also had a runaway trim and also in visual conditions and very hard to lower the nose. RIP. Hopefully we find the cause.
Yes. It’s very rare these planes were not very well equipped from the factory. Of course, they’ve mostly all been reequipped by now. They did do some stripped versions of the ovation in the mid to late nineties trying to up the volume. I think it’s the M20S Eagle.
The video gave the impression the M is the same plane as the older models, but I think all the M’s and later (Ovation and Acclaim) were the stretched fuselage. Also, the cabin gives the illusion its smaller than it is. If you compare measurements to the competition, it’s very surprising. I think it’s the way the front window is shaped. Mooney still made the J and Z in the nineties which are the smaller design.
I believe this is the first break up of an unmodified Mooney. There have been cases of Mooney Rockets breaking the tail. The rocket is what I think he’s describing it the video, an old fuselage with a higher power engine.
I knew the pilot very well, one of my closest friends. I've flown many hours with him in that Mooney. He was a careful and meticulous pilot, but no more immune to SD than any of us, I guess. One correction to Juan's report...he's been a pilot for as long as I have, and for as long as I've known him...more than 40 years. From a personal standpoint, I can scarcely comprehend the extent of this tragedy.
Sorry for your loss. God bless.