"Liturgy is built on the principle that the Church is unique and cannot be found in ordinary life." Hits the nail on the head. I spent years trying to discern or discover the point of going to church, when everything I was taught church was about (except the presence of other people) could just as easily be found at home by myself with a steady internet connection. This year, I walked into an ACNA church following the 2019 BCP liturgy, and for once, the answer was clear as day. The entire service was composed primarily of that which is not found in ordinary life. For the first time in my adult life, I have been attending church every week without fail for two months. For the first time, it actually seems to matter whether or not I sit in the pew on Sunday versus doing something else.
As a lifelong contemporary worship Christian and singer/songwriter who has recently (early church father) read his way into the high Anglican church, I personally struggle with all of this. Contemporary worship is one of the main ways, "blissed out" in worship or "broken" in tears, that I have "felt" and "experienced" God throughout my life.
You can also feel a version of those emotions at solemn worship. Just more centered and provide a more lasting “after” experience . I too have experienced both. It helps to find a high church with a terrific music director and a professional or near professional level choir if you could
I think it’s beneficial to contrast the final goal undergirding each approach to worship. The liturgy is designed for renewal and reaffirmation of the new covenant. The congregation offers confession of faith and sin while God delivers forgiveness and unification by his body and blood. In contemporary worship, the congregation gathers to be entertained while being encouraged to live Godly lives. Ultimately, the liturgy is started by man but completed by God whereas contemporary worship is started by man and completed by man. God, under contemporary worship’ implications, is an ornament to the Christian life as opposed to being the means and the end in and of himself.
Another good video. Especially Lutherans have a rich tradition of hymn writing that should not be ditched. If you want a rock concert, go to a concert Saturday night to town, Church is for proper church music, hymns (and a psalm or two)
Found your channel through Barely Protestant. Good stuff! I’ve subscribed. Regarding this video: I definitely felt the part about judging someone by how much they get into evangelical worship. Being introverted, I never quite fit in no matter how hard I tried. I was never “Christian enough” for certain people and I even once got dumped over it. (It’s all good now though) Finding a liturgical space, even if I had to find it alone, felt like finding home 🙂
This was exactly my experience. At my old Non-denominational Church I NEVER participated in worship because it felt repulsive to me. I hated the music, the lyrics felt cheap, and I never felt anything if I did sing. It felt like singing contemporary music for worship was like betraying myself, weirdly enough. Thankfully I never got dumped or lost friendships over it, but it really did affect my faith in a negative way, even had me wondering if I was secretly Atheist and just lying to myself at one point because I didn't "feel" anything from the music. Like you said, finding a liturgical space, even doing so alone, felt like finding home. It just clicked immediately the first time I attended a Lutheran service, even though I was lost in the Divine Service book my first time lmao.
You stated that you reject the idea of trying to convert people by appealing to their emotions because they are untrustworthy and deceptive. Would you say the same thing about apologetics and trying to reason an unbeliever to faith? I understand that this is touching on presuppositional apologetics, which you have said you plan to critique in the future. But I am curious as to what you think the role of arguments and evidence should play in evangelism.
@@ScholasticLutherans Joseph of Arimathea "was a disciple but in secret for fear". Apologetics are a mercy for those who wish to believe and become Christians but hesitate due to shame, fear, or doubt.
1. I see a huge conflation between CCM: specifically the distinction between Christian Rock, and Contemporary Worship. I would say a lot of people who despise Contemporary Worship would lump Christian Rock into it and use CCM and CW interchangeably. Lecrae, Third Day, Toby Mac (for example Eye On It wouldn’t be sung in a church service, or at least I don’t know of a single evangelical church does, having been to many and speaking to friends on Discord around the world) are considered CCM/Christian rock but NOT Contemporary Worship. 2. “The band on stage…at least in the front of the sanctuary directed towards the audience similar to a concert setting”. Actually, the orientation comes from old choirs. And you can hardly not realize that concerts borrowed A LOT from churches in this way, as did theaters utilizing smoke and candles in ancient times. Additionally, there are churches that do “worship in the round” exactly BECAUSE they feel that this stage thing may suddenly feel too concert like DUE TO concerts adapting it. 3. “Most important aspect…evangelicalism and experience”. No. Worship leaders explicitly state it is about connecting you to God. 4. “Very emotional…strives to stir the emotions”. Yeah I have zero problem with that. Smells and bells provide an impact of engaging all senses. Mark 12:30 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart” and James 5:13 “Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise.” 5. “Subtly moved and thus convert”. No. While inviting someone to church and hoping that they hear the Word preached and see the Christian in general engaging our God and thus want to convert is a hope, that is certainly NOT the prime goal of worship, but to everything the church does (missions, preaching, counseling, small group, serving food to the poor, etc, etc) 1 Corinthians 9:22. 6. “Goal is to trick people…listen to former worship leaders” Yeah. So listen to skeptics who’ve deconverted because they’re the best source. /s 7. Goal is never to trick, but yes to engage emotions. There is zero hiding and zero manipulation. This sounds a lot like saying “stained glass manipulates you because it’s beautiful. I haven’t read anything that says stained glass is supposed to trick but the colors clearly do”. 8. “Microphones directed at the audience” I’m currently checking in with a buddy of mine who is on the actual Production staff at Elevation. As someone who knows a bit about microphones, I can say the pumping in audience into the main speakers would just cause feedback because it picks up the speakers itself. So I’m highly suspect of this statement. 9. “Make the events look like concerts”. The goal is never to make it look like a concert, but to make it beautiful and excellent for God. So I would argue all the stained glass, organ, developments of chants in Gallican chant and the Old Roman chant, all looked like the common time period’s architecture and culture. Vestments were originally just common clothes albeit clean. The evangelical mentality is yes to relate, but also why shouldn’t we use all and every possible thing we do for God? 1 Corinthians 10:31 (do all things for the glory of God). Why would we not redeem everything? Why would we not also just use mundane everyday things for God like the early church did? Or at the very least, relatable? 10. “Ploy to hear about Jesus [while being invited to have fun]” Or maybe that’s just a youth group event??? And of course the church is gonna have Jesus in it. We know that the church of Acts literally did life together. Including Paul getting shipwrecked. Acts 27:35 Paul broke bread while giving advice to the others to eat. Did he stop being the church there? Similarly, it’s to foster a literal church that does life together rather than a single Sunday gathering. 11. “Not the time to use [the keyboard]” Bach used pianos. 12. “Guitars and singers at the back is not CW” well evangelical churches do that (maybe not at the back, but sometimes go down to just a guitarist and a few singers) 13. “Feelings aren’t trustworthy” Sure. But you’d be hard pressed to say the Psalmist was not using instruments to invoke feelings. Otherwise why not just drone on reciting words with no rhythm? Psalm 96:1 Sing to the LORD a new song. Psalm 96:9 Tremble before Him. Psalm 96:11 May the earth rejoice. 14. Jeremiah 17:9, sure the heart is deceitful. Which means Christianity cannot be BUILT on feelings. Totally agree. Evangelicals need to bring in more logical, rational thought. That is not an argument against CM however, it’s an argument against building trust on CM. 15. For Ecc 9:3 did you read Ecc 9:1? “For I have taken all this to my heart”. Clearly you don’t TRUST your heart doesn’t mean you can’t use it. Again goes back to point #14. 16. “Stirring up feelings is not a truthful way” Sure. I can admit that is a problem. However, the emphasis should be put on my points above, rather on this point. This point, tbf, can be made about smell and bells. But we can agree here. 17. “I never felt emotions” I’ve very very rarely ever felt emotions over CM. I have, however, cried over the Gospel just reading the suffering of Christ on the cross. Again, you’re right, trusting in an emotional experience is not a good solid foundation. However, one might say giving to the poor could be an emotional experience and then when they hear the word preached they go “wow this is so true”. That’s the hope here. I’ve also heard MANY Roman Catholics say “while kneeling before the Eucharist I could just have the true body and blood and soul and divinity just touch my tongue” and “I just knew He was really present and this is the true church”. Similar in EO but with different things. Honestly, again to be fair you really do have to consistently critique other traditions here. 18. “Evangelicalism baptizes it” (insert baptismal regeneration joke here not all baptizo refers to water baptism) 19. Agree with most of the “fuzzy feelings” points, but those are pastoral points. 20. “Many CCM songs can be sung by Muslims and Jews”. I know many worship leaders who work directly with pastors to plan the weekend’s worship set to use the same Scriptural passages. Additionally, songs like Glorious Day, What a Beautiful Name, Raise a Hallelujah are all extremely Scriptural and cannot be sung by others. 21. Looking through the 50 Shades article I see Seven Day Jesus, Newsboys, and Skillet. No Bethel, Elevation, Sinach (Way Maker), Passion (Glorious Day). 22. “Heterodox doctrine”. Yikes. I do think there are good points you’ve made, but this really isn’t one of them. I definitely feel like Paul talking to those who avoid meat would be seen in this case as heterodox because it contradicts the freedom to eat meat. I really wouldn’t label either that. 23. I think you equivocate on inclusive. CCM isn’t inclusive but rather than formal cause is inclusive because those who advocate the formal cause do not deny the liturgy its place. Additionally, I think the apostolic attitude in the formal cause is what made their worship reflect what it was in their day. It certainly changed from the tabernacle and certainly changed from then on. Lights are modern candles. Pews, stained glass, and yes the cross itself (a horrible symbol of crucifixion) would not been how Paul/Peter/James/John imagined it. 24. “Liturgy is like nothing we’ve encountered before” this is simply ahistorical. It’s literally just exactly what has been encountered before and taken from surrounding ideas. There’s also no Scriptural thing that says buildings, song styles, candles must be something utterly “never encountered before”. 25. “The church is unique”. Of course the church is unique, but “not found in ordinary life” is utterly non Scriptural. What is Scriptural is the apostles doing life together. Even in Acts buying and selling property for the purposes of the church. Holding things in common with each other. What’s unique is the purpose (Christ). 26. “When I go to church” is also ultimately unscriptural. We are the church. The church is the body. We do not reconnect ourselves to the body on Sunday and then disconnect again until next Sunday. 27. “When we worship we unite ourselves to the saints in heaven”. No we don’t. The Holy Spirit connects us (all of the body, not just earth to heaven). Additionally, further language of “merging of the church” is not Scriptural and comes from scholastic RC understandings of the church militant, penitent, and triumphant. 28. The last anecdote is unfortunate, but doesn’t represent any formal cause of CCM. 29. “There’s a real beauty in the liturgy. It’s one of my favorite parts of the week”. I feel like this is just an appeal to (final cause of the liturgy) preference and emotion. Unfortunate.
Followup: my buddy said "I can confidently say we DO NOT [hire/request/get volunteers to] make people clap or get excited. That is fully up the the person if they want to get excited. If you have even been to a EC service you can tell people are just excited which is awesome! "
27: I think you're equivocating here. The Church, being both physical and spiritual, unites at worship because we're all participating in it together. We're spiritually connected through the Spirit, but we're physically connected or united through worship and the receiving of communion.
2. I wonder how wise of a decision this is. Even granting the precedence with church choirs, I think the problem remains: worship becomes about entertainment.
"Liturgy is built on the principle that the Church is unique and cannot be found in ordinary life." Hits the nail on the head. I spent years trying to discern or discover the point of going to church, when everything I was taught church was about (except the presence of other people) could just as easily be found at home by myself with a steady internet connection. This year, I walked into an ACNA church following the 2019 BCP liturgy, and for once, the answer was clear as day. The entire service was composed primarily of that which is not found in ordinary life. For the first time in my adult life, I have been attending church every week without fail for two months. For the first time, it actually seems to matter whether or not I sit in the pew on Sunday versus doing something else.
Amen
As a lifelong contemporary worship Christian and singer/songwriter who has recently (early church father) read his way into the high Anglican church, I personally struggle with all of this. Contemporary worship is one of the main ways, "blissed out" in worship or "broken" in tears, that I have "felt" and "experienced" God throughout my life.
You can also feel a version of those emotions at solemn worship. Just more centered and provide a more lasting “after” experience . I too have experienced both. It helps to find a high church with a terrific music director and a professional or near professional level choir if you could
Now that I'm orienting to liturgy vs contemporary issues, I revisited this for greater articulation of my arguments. Excellent work
I think it’s beneficial to contrast the final goal undergirding each approach to worship.
The liturgy is designed for renewal and reaffirmation of the new covenant. The congregation offers confession of faith and sin while God delivers forgiveness and unification by his body and blood.
In contemporary worship, the congregation gathers to be entertained while being encouraged to live Godly lives.
Ultimately, the liturgy is started by man but completed by God whereas contemporary worship is started by man and completed by man. God, under contemporary worship’ implications, is an ornament to the Christian life as opposed to being the means and the end in and of himself.
Another good video. Especially Lutherans have a rich tradition of hymn writing that should not be ditched. If you want a rock concert, go to a concert Saturday night to town, Church is for proper church music, hymns (and a psalm or two)
Found your channel through Barely Protestant. Good stuff! I’ve subscribed.
Regarding this video: I definitely felt the part about judging someone by how much they get into evangelical worship. Being introverted, I never quite fit in no matter how hard I tried.
I was never “Christian enough” for certain people and I even once got dumped over it. (It’s all good now though)
Finding a liturgical space, even if I had to find it alone, felt like finding home 🙂
This was exactly my experience. At my old Non-denominational Church I NEVER participated in worship because it felt repulsive to me. I hated the music, the lyrics felt cheap, and I never felt anything if I did sing. It felt like singing contemporary music for worship was like betraying myself, weirdly enough. Thankfully I never got dumped or lost friendships over it, but it really did affect my faith in a negative way, even had me wondering if I was secretly Atheist and just lying to myself at one point because I didn't "feel" anything from the music.
Like you said, finding a liturgical space, even doing so alone, felt like finding home. It just clicked immediately the first time I attended a Lutheran service, even though I was lost in the Divine Service book my first time lmao.
Great video!
You stated that you reject the idea of trying to convert people by appealing to their emotions because they are untrustworthy and deceptive. Would you say the same thing about apologetics and trying to reason an unbeliever to faith? I understand that this is touching on presuppositional apologetics, which you have said you plan to critique in the future. But I am curious as to what you think the role of arguments and evidence should play in evangelism.
That's something I am still thinking about, I have to be honest. It's a very serious question I'm investigating.
@@ScholasticLutherans Joseph of Arimathea "was a disciple but in secret for fear". Apologetics are a mercy for those who wish to believe and become Christians but hesitate due to shame, fear, or doubt.
Apologetics can remove unreasonable obstacles and objections which are none too few in our shallow and thinly educated culture.
This episode is too irenic
1. I see a huge conflation between CCM: specifically the distinction between Christian Rock, and Contemporary Worship. I would say a lot of people who despise Contemporary Worship would lump Christian Rock into it and use CCM and CW interchangeably. Lecrae, Third Day, Toby Mac (for example Eye On It wouldn’t be sung in a church service, or at least I don’t know of a single evangelical church does, having been to many and speaking to friends on Discord around the world) are considered CCM/Christian rock but NOT Contemporary Worship.
2. “The band on stage…at least in the front of the sanctuary directed towards the audience similar to a concert setting”. Actually, the orientation comes from old choirs. And you can hardly not realize that concerts borrowed A LOT from churches in this way, as did theaters utilizing smoke and candles in ancient times. Additionally, there are churches that do “worship in the round” exactly BECAUSE they feel that this stage thing may suddenly feel too concert like DUE TO concerts adapting it.
3. “Most important aspect…evangelicalism and experience”. No. Worship leaders explicitly state it is about connecting you to God.
4. “Very emotional…strives to stir the emotions”. Yeah I have zero problem with that. Smells and bells provide an impact of engaging all senses. Mark 12:30 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart” and James 5:13 “Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise.”
5. “Subtly moved and thus convert”. No. While inviting someone to church and hoping that they hear the Word preached and see the Christian in general engaging our God and thus want to convert is a hope, that is certainly NOT the prime goal of worship, but to everything the church does (missions, preaching, counseling, small group, serving food to the poor, etc, etc) 1 Corinthians 9:22.
6. “Goal is to trick people…listen to former worship leaders” Yeah. So listen to skeptics who’ve deconverted because they’re the best source. /s
7. Goal is never to trick, but yes to engage emotions. There is zero hiding and zero manipulation. This sounds a lot like saying “stained glass manipulates you because it’s beautiful. I haven’t read anything that says stained glass is supposed to trick but the colors clearly do”.
8. “Microphones directed at the audience” I’m currently checking in with a buddy of mine who is on the actual Production staff at Elevation. As someone who knows a bit about microphones, I can say the pumping in audience into the main speakers would just cause feedback because it picks up the speakers itself. So I’m highly suspect of this statement.
9. “Make the events look like concerts”. The goal is never to make it look like a concert, but to make it beautiful and excellent for God. So I would argue all the stained glass, organ, developments of chants in Gallican chant and the Old Roman chant, all looked like the common time period’s architecture and culture. Vestments were originally just common clothes albeit clean. The evangelical mentality is yes to relate, but also why shouldn’t we use all and every possible thing we do for God? 1 Corinthians 10:31 (do all things for the glory of God). Why would we not redeem everything? Why would we not also just use mundane everyday things for God like the early church did? Or at the very least, relatable?
10. “Ploy to hear about Jesus [while being invited to have fun]” Or maybe that’s just a youth group event??? And of course the church is gonna have Jesus in it. We know that the church of Acts literally did life together. Including Paul getting shipwrecked. Acts 27:35 Paul broke bread while giving advice to the others to eat. Did he stop being the church there? Similarly, it’s to foster a literal church that does life together rather than a single Sunday gathering.
11. “Not the time to use [the keyboard]” Bach used pianos.
12. “Guitars and singers at the back is not CW” well evangelical churches do that (maybe not at the back, but sometimes go down to just a guitarist and a few singers)
13. “Feelings aren’t trustworthy” Sure. But you’d be hard pressed to say the Psalmist was not using instruments to invoke feelings. Otherwise why not just drone on reciting words with no rhythm? Psalm 96:1 Sing to the LORD a new song. Psalm 96:9 Tremble before Him. Psalm 96:11 May the earth rejoice.
14. Jeremiah 17:9, sure the heart is deceitful. Which means Christianity cannot be BUILT on feelings. Totally agree. Evangelicals need to bring in more logical, rational thought. That is not an argument against CM however, it’s an argument against building trust on CM.
15. For Ecc 9:3 did you read Ecc 9:1? “For I have taken all this to my heart”. Clearly you don’t TRUST your heart doesn’t mean you can’t use it. Again goes back to point #14.
16. “Stirring up feelings is not a truthful way” Sure. I can admit that is a problem. However, the emphasis should be put on my points above, rather on this point. This point, tbf, can be made about smell and bells. But we can agree here.
17. “I never felt emotions” I’ve very very rarely ever felt emotions over CM. I have, however, cried over the Gospel just reading the suffering of Christ on the cross. Again, you’re right, trusting in an emotional experience is not a good solid foundation. However, one might say giving to the poor could be an emotional experience and then when they hear the word preached they go “wow this is so true”. That’s the hope here. I’ve also heard MANY Roman Catholics say “while kneeling before the Eucharist I could just have the true body and blood and soul and divinity just touch my tongue” and “I just knew He was really present and this is the true church”. Similar in EO but with different things. Honestly, again to be fair you really do have to consistently critique other traditions here.
18. “Evangelicalism baptizes it” (insert baptismal regeneration joke here not all baptizo refers to water baptism)
19. Agree with most of the “fuzzy feelings” points, but those are pastoral points.
20. “Many CCM songs can be sung by Muslims and Jews”. I know many worship leaders who work directly with pastors to plan the weekend’s worship set to use the same Scriptural passages. Additionally, songs like Glorious Day, What a Beautiful Name, Raise a Hallelujah are all extremely Scriptural and cannot be sung by others.
21. Looking through the 50 Shades article I see Seven Day Jesus, Newsboys, and Skillet. No Bethel, Elevation, Sinach (Way Maker), Passion (Glorious Day).
22. “Heterodox doctrine”. Yikes. I do think there are good points you’ve made, but this really isn’t one of them. I definitely feel like Paul talking to those who avoid meat would be seen in this case as heterodox because it contradicts the freedom to eat meat. I really wouldn’t label either that.
23. I think you equivocate on inclusive. CCM isn’t inclusive but rather than formal cause is inclusive because those who advocate the formal cause do not deny the liturgy its place. Additionally, I think the apostolic attitude in the formal cause is what made their worship reflect what it was in their day. It certainly changed from the tabernacle and certainly changed from then on. Lights are modern candles. Pews, stained glass, and yes the cross itself (a horrible symbol of crucifixion) would not been how Paul/Peter/James/John imagined it.
24. “Liturgy is like nothing we’ve encountered before” this is simply ahistorical. It’s literally just exactly what has been encountered before and taken from surrounding ideas. There’s also no Scriptural thing that says buildings, song styles, candles must be something utterly “never encountered before”.
25. “The church is unique”. Of course the church is unique, but “not found in ordinary life” is utterly non Scriptural. What is Scriptural is the apostles doing life together. Even in Acts buying and selling property for the purposes of the church. Holding things in common with each other. What’s unique is the purpose (Christ).
26. “When I go to church” is also ultimately unscriptural. We are the church. The church is the body. We do not reconnect ourselves to the body on Sunday and then disconnect again until next Sunday.
27. “When we worship we unite ourselves to the saints in heaven”. No we don’t. The Holy Spirit connects us (all of the body, not just earth to heaven). Additionally, further language of “merging of the church” is not Scriptural and comes from scholastic RC understandings of the church militant, penitent, and triumphant.
28. The last anecdote is unfortunate, but doesn’t represent any formal cause of CCM.
29. “There’s a real beauty in the liturgy. It’s one of my favorite parts of the week”. I feel like this is just an appeal to (final cause of the liturgy) preference and emotion. Unfortunate.
Followup: my buddy said "I can confidently say we DO NOT [hire/request/get volunteers to] make people clap or get excited. That is fully up the the person if they want to get excited. If you have even been to a EC service you can tell people are just excited which is awesome! "
27: I think you're equivocating here. The Church, being both physical and spiritual, unites at worship because we're all participating in it together. We're spiritually connected through the Spirit, but we're physically connected or united through worship and the receiving of communion.
2. I wonder how wise of a decision this is. Even granting the precedence with church choirs, I think the problem remains: worship becomes about entertainment.