I've learnt something recently about "the hobby". I build wargame miniatures, but a family member who builds scale models recently gave me a 1/35 tank, as a challenge. The component parts of which are ridiculously overcomplicated. No one needs to have tank track links in 3 pieces. But I realised that the scale model builders amongst us are into the process of the build. My chieftain tank now has a lovely enamel red paint scheme, and will soon have a lively grot crew, but it impressed upon me that some modellers are just into "the build" and the more parts and the more complexity the better.
The most advanced build I've probably made was a resin Cerastus Castigator Knight. Having to create my own pose from scratch and cut and position every piston to fit the pose was daunting but some modelling projects you just take at your own pace and enjoy the process. The problem I have with modern GW kits is not that they are made from lots of parts, it's that those parts often aren't recognisable until they are fitted to the model. Instead of an arm you might get a random chunk of plastic that fits to a random piece of plastic to make an arm. Sometimes it's hard to tell how the parts fit, so you just rotate them randomly until the parts just sort of mesh together. Gone are the days of ill-fitting pegs I suppose.
It's cars rather than tanks for me, but yes I do like kits with a lot of parts. Not so much from the POV of "yay complexity", but an engine that's split up into block, head, exhaust etc has way more opportunities to paint the individual bits and it look more like a miniature engine than an approximation of an engine, which some of the simpler kits have.
It’s so weirdly fascinating.... this hobby, I mean. With GW rereleasing the old WHF models for TOW, you have so many people complaining about the relative simplicity of the old sculpts. Also the people who complain about the lack of detail and options on the push fit versions of more recent kits. Apparently, if we believe the statistics, the vast majority of GW’s customers are hobbyists who seldom or never actually play a game of 40k or AoS. So clearly, it’s in the company’s best interest to design a product that caters to the builder, customizer and painter... not the person who’s trying to get 2000 points on the table in a week.
One guy in our group quited the hobby after one and a half decades because tyranids (his main army) got a range update in 10th edition... You cannot make all people happy.
I mean, you're not wrong about the "average" 40K customer. The customer is now someone who buys a lot of new models, poorly assembles them, doesn't paint them, but spends 92% of their time complaining or arguing about a game they don't play. You see the same customer in D&D. They're a customer of the idea...not the actual game. Which is good, as neither of the games is particularly good! :D
Think about this how much warhammer do you think a carefull moddeler buys and how much warhammer a 2000 points in a week for a tournament guy buys. Guy like that (aka me) are likely the whales of the miniture industry
Personally I hated the push fit of my command edition starter set and when I got my first full Intercessors kit I was was happier with how everything came together. The building is actually my favorite part, so I'm biased and enjoy all the smaller pieces. It's like graduating from regular LEGO to Technic for me. As for the detail, I really appreciate the effort and details going into the sculpts. I'm reminded of a great quote: "I don't know the key to success, but I know the key to failure is to try and please everyone."
About over-detailing - a possible explanation to its increase on GW models is that they aren't necessarily aimed at professional level painters exclusively. The higher the level of detail is, the more work things like contrast paints and washes do on the model - something that's not really a net benefit when you're already doing all your texturing and rendering "by hand" while painting, but that allows simpler and faster painting methods to look better than they would on more plain and smooth surfaces.
Ya I have a similar issue~ I’m new to this painting miniature. I am so frustrated that the result felt better with contrast paint + washes… than put in hours to base coat and trying to fix all the mistake during some of the highlight and painting those tiny stuff on them.
Posted something similar and then saw this. This is 100% true. It doesn't have to be detail per se - it's more about the texture than about detail per se, and GW is sometimes guilty of loading up the details when really they would be better off just focusing on lines and texture instead - but sharp lines and a general lack of open empty space on models is a great boon to those of us who are intermediate level painters. The easiest way to make models look good on the table even if you aren't a professional painter is to have good contrast, and sharply delineated surfaces and good texture make that far easier to achieve. The big open smooth surface is one of the hardest things to do well in miniature painting, and I'm not sad that GW doesn't cater more to the professional painters who see that as a plus rather than a minus. There's plenty of other miniatures designed for display painting for people who want a freer canvas to express their skill on.
@@assistantref5084 I would say, this is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it does genuinely make fast painting methods (contrast paints, speedpaint, etc) return much better results than they would on a blander model; On the other hand, for people trying to improve their painting, especially when they are already intermediate painters who want to try more complex stuff, but are not yet comfortable enough with the brush to tackle very small details, this can possibly make painting more difficult. Personally, I still like the amount of detail that GW puts on their models these days, but I acknowledge they can be a problem for numerous reasons and for people at many painting skill levels.
@@AlikUncle Personally, if I only ever had smooth surfaces to work on, I never would have got to even the decent journeyman level I'm currently at. The big revelation for me was figuring out contrast (the concept, not the paints, which I have never used), and I wouldn't have done that with big smooth surfaces - I would have just gotten frustrated with my inability to produce convincing contrast using blending and shading the way the pros do, and then written off good-looking miniatures as something only the truly talented and/or trained could do, akin to flat canvas painting. FWIW weirdly I don't think GW miniatures actually look all that great painted the way GW painters paint miniatures. GW puts way too much priority on clean brushwork and edge highlighting and way too little on contrast and volumetric shading, and it doesn't actually showcase the strengths of the miniatures.
i also feel that the way gw have designed their newer models have been designed specifically to limit if not bar compatiblity with third party pieces. the old simple cadian models were clearly defined separate sections like torsos were one part, legs were one to two parts and it was easy to swap in alternative parts even from within their own range to spice things up but now with the new cadians it's an utter pain in the ass to do it
In my opinion the Direction they have taken forgets one major thing , these figures are toys used to play a game. And all these fancy doodads they are slapping on everything just make them more delicate. It's also making them more and more scarce on my painting table .
You see this a LOT with modern Kits, Orks being the most obvious since they still sell the old multipart kits and the new monopose kit so Ork players are left with a choice...do you get the much better looking but fixed loadout updated boyz, meaning if you want a squad of all shootas or all sluggas and choppas you need to do some very awkward kitbashing OR do you get the much derpier looking, smaller multipart boyz kit? Was hoping one of the big reveals for Orks in 10th would have been a new multipart kit...but GW seem to be moving away from multipart kits for the reason you gave...so people can't use 3rd party parts very easily anymore.
@@CharlesEntrekin- see thats where yer wrong. Citadel is a MODEL company that just happens to have a game, not a game company with good models. Theyve never been a game company, the models are an excuse to sell you a game.
@DismemberTheAlamo you are correct. The hobby is modeling, painting, and playing. The whole game existd to sell these models. What cracks me up most is people will cry about the part count or the fiddly bits while also bemoaning the price point. These models are expensive because they're generally a high detail and quality than anything else on the market. This video just makes me think this guy is a shit modeler and painter who overloaded himself with work and then cry posted about parts because he needs content
The Briggs/Chase Law of program development (this applies to A LOT more than programming): To determine how long it will take to write and debug a program, take your best estimate, multiply that by two, add one, and convert to the next higher unit of measure. For example, if you estimate (truly think) it will take you 6 weeks, then: 6 weeks * 2 = 12 weeks. add 1 = 13 weeks. then convert to the next highest unit of measure: 13 months. It will probably take 13 months. This, in my 40 years of software development and project management, has turned out to be incredibly accurate. Just sayin' :) "Failure" is where learning happens! good video, thank you.
Okay, as a firmware engineer with but 20 years of experience, I thought I had it sorted, but you've taken this to a whole new level of mathematical precision. Thank you for this comment.
Modern GW models mostly killed my joy of BUILDING models. I am more of a builder and converter, and have fond memories of clipping a whole regiment of 20 Orcs from their sprues - torso, legs, two arms and a head per model - and build them: picking my parts of choice, mixing things as I go along, and ending up with a bunch of "my dud... Orcs" at the end. This is completely impossible today. Not only is each model an unreasonable amount of parts, you also HAVE to follow the instruction. You need half a degree in aerospace engineering or years of experience in following IKEA instructions, and it JUST IS NOT FUN AT ALL. Not cool GW, not cool at all.
She saw how small your point count was, and left to find someone with an ork army, with an order of magnitude more points... She wasn't looking for some low-effort scrub.
@@andrewamann2821God this feels like one of those terrible "Sorry we don't let anyone with below 1 million power score into this club/resturant/venue" shitty mobile ads but with WarHams.
I agree that the trend toward taking a single item and breaking it down into a multitude of parts with the GW miniatures seems to be increasing. The hobby has taken on a quasi-jigsaw puzzle nature with some of the models. 3 parts to create a single leg ... I do like the increased detail that the plastic models have over the pewter (or lead) miniatures being made when I first started with the hobby. There have been some of the figures I have created that frustrated me to no end with the fiddly bits to make up some sections of them.
"I sat down early Sunday morning to start building those Inceptors." Aaah, Inceptors... and here I was expecting to hear all about getting the damn things on those flying sticks! 😂 Interesting points about picking what and where to 'fail,' especially with self-imposed targets and goals in a hobby like this. Thanks for the Pshaow! ✌
One of the best books I have read in a long while is "Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away" by Annie Duke. It's an exceptional book that debunks the myth the "Winners never quit".... It's knowing what (and when) to quit that makes the winner.....
I enjoy the assembly process, and the detail amount. I mean most of the time I leave some of the pieces on the sprue, but it's good to have the option.
Designers of models work on oversized monitors where the models are 12" tall or more when they zoom in. So they are sculpting details to make the model look amazing. Of course when we print that mini at 1.5" tall, most of those details are invisible to the naked eye and impossible to paint individually. sigh. OPR is on the same over-detailed train, but at least we can print them in just a few pieces.
GW drain me and after 37 years I stopped buying them 😢 I have flipped to Mantic and my hobby energy has burst back to life! Easy to build not to busy and they look great in squads! If GW ever go back to hobby and not a life style I’ll head back over.
I feel the exact same way about many GW models - SO many parts that dont need to be separate!! it's so frustrating because it's always some tiny thing, even if it's a midsized model. I'm convinced they just want to fill out the sprue frame so that it's packed, so that it feels like you're "getting more".
@@BattlebrotherPhil up to a certain point.. one of the models i got has like a grill with a lot of spikes sticking out. in between 2 of the spikes was an empty hole with the instructions to cut out a spike and glue it into the hole. That's not complexity that's just stupid.
I see other comments about scale models and their complexity - but which is driven by a desire for accuracy. The thing that separates them from GW is that sub-assemblies in scale models are usually actual things (engines, gun mounts, etc) as opposed to 3 bits of the same arm. And look at the sprues from scale model kits - they aren't obsessed with using every micrometer of space for parts which makes getting the cutter to a workable angle for taking the parts off way easier . . .
The concept there is never enough time is a rule for our finite lives. It is good to have goals and targets but we should try to enjoy as much as we can of the journey because that is what tend to spend the most time on.
Been building models for forty years, and the modern GW kits are indeed very hard to assemble. I have to follow the instructions and they only go together one way. Inceptor flight stands are next-gen level of frustration!
I painted a full napoleonic regiment during lockdown (something over 1,000 minis) and after taking a break, I recently got back into it after visiting the Games Workshop cafe in Tokyo in January. I hadn't really followed any GW stuff or news in the past 15 or so years (at least from the hobby side of things) so I picked up the Exaction Squad Kill team thinking it would be a nice little intro back into sci fi side of wargaming (plus they remind me a lot of Judge Dredd lol) but I was amazed/shocked at how many parts and sprues I got in the box. I think assembling the squad of 10 and the cybermastiff, I'm still left with 60% unused bits and pieces from the various customisation options. Even the instructions and the sprue numbering for the parts was a lot more confusing than I seem to remember. 😅
I have never played a single game yet but i kinda painted roughly 30 gaunts, a psychophage, hive tyrant, screamer killer, norn emissary, 4 dreadnoughts, the company heroes, sword breathen, intercessor squad, and custodes hehe i guess im really just into the painting and building them up. But i hope someday i can learn how to play
It's like when I paint some historicals and remember what it's like to not spend as long assembling minis as it takes to paint them. Except for Victrix. I love Victrix but they are not one or two piece historical models.
IDK... But I always think the people who design those sprues are geniuses. Sure every now and then there's something that stumps me, but I'm always amazed. I think GW makes the absolute best minis. I've failed at painting my armies for years, but I tend to build them reasonably quickly after buying them and I have no complaints about the level of detail or quality.
"You don't always have to paint every detail." I had a buddy I could tell was getting frustrated painting every bib and bob a different color or shade. Since he's not entering these in a painting competition, I suggested he stick to four colors at most and perhaps the pouches on a bandolier could be the same color as the bandolier itself. He finished his force much faster and we had fun much sooner.
Just a comment on the number of parts for models. When I started 40k proper, my standard tactical space marine had, a head, a torso, pair of legs, two arms, back pack, and a standard weapon plus any additional optional items. Optional items included, grenades, knife in scabbard, a scope for the gun, heavy weapons option with ammo. So a base model had at least 6 parts, just allowing more flexibility in construction. That was the 90's, is it really any less of a construction issue?
As someone who just wants to "play the darn game", with age has come a new mantra when assembling and especially painting: "It's not just good... **wink, nod, finger gun** It's good enough."
One of the answers you seek and GW won`t give us is slide molding (when the mold have more than just 2 parts). I saw GW using that only on some Baneblade parts only. That alone could give us less parts and pre-drilled barrels. Lots of scale model manufactures use that because it`s hard to sell another Panther kit without new cool features. Gunpla kits use that very often (and we won`t talk about pre-assembled movable parts on sprue like in RG line). Sure GW can afford that if they want. But yeah, mostly it`s sculpting choices having lots of small unnecessary details...
I generally enjoy painting GW sculpts. But there is definitely a lot of work in getting them ready for paint. If I want to get something up to display quality, just getting everything cut, sanded, mold lines cleaned, and gap filling if needed, just takes a lot of time. When I got my new deathwing stuff I spent one whole hobby session just getting the models built, just for a 5 man squad. I'm not claiming to work quickly or efficiently, but I'm pretty experienced at building models at this point. I do also enjoy the build/kitbash phase of a project as a bit of a break from painting. It's something different and scratches a different part of my creative side. In terms of the details on the models. I think the lack of pouches is something that I really enjoy about the new terminators. They do just have open space to play around with. I'm not out to get a golden demon, but I do like to paint to a pretty high level just for my own enjoyment. Alternatively, the new Asmodai kit is pretty detailed, and had a reasonable amount of gap filling, but I absolutely loved painting it. It is a tough balance. I think GW needs to scale back infinitary detailing, but keep elites, characters, and vehicles about where they are.
As a freelancer of nearly twenty five years, if I want to a) keep a client and make them happy, and b) can afford to schedule the extra time for a job I usually double up the proscribed 'turn-around' time. For example, if I know a project can be completed in a week to nine days I will quote two weeks and usually deliver around day twelve. It's taken a long time to arrive at this formula and there's still quite a few instances where my time-tabling has all gone terribly wrong, but usually the home spun adage is; it'll take **twice** as long as you think.
I believe that the Rolling Stones summed it up pretty well with the lyrics: "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, You get what you need, "
We had this conversation at my FLGS, GW does have the prettiest models out there that isn't coming from a bespoke shop and artist. But we don't need every grunt model to be ready, off the sprue, to go compete in the Golden Demon. We don't need minis we are afraid to touch fo fear of breaking them, we need minis we can play with, scoop up by the handful to charge the enemy position, and ones that won't shatter when we accidentally knock them over. Army commander, big bad whatever on your team, sure, those you can make as fancy as possible. Everything else make it easy to tell what it is from across the table, but let's go back to as simple as possible. Is that too much to ask? Also in the gaming space, saw a discussion on a board games forum, and board games have gotten so wildly complicated, when a creator asked the group what they wanted to see over the next year or so, the answer was a cry for simpler. Make simpler games that don't take up cubic yards of shelf space and an entire weekend to play. We have plenty of those games, we want a small taste of something different that we don't feel bad for taking that taste because it didn't take a lot of time to do it.
As soon as you mentioned Redemptor and Inceptors, I knew the pain. I would like more for my marines, but I remember the pain of building them. I also find the new kits take forever. I sit down saturday lunchtime with a couple of kits at most. Maybe by 8pm I might be done building them. By that time, I’m done, mentally exhausted. I hobby to unwind from work, but I need a way to unwind from the hobby at times.
Shout out to Troy, Sonic Sledgehammer, his righteous crusade to bring Marine Juice to the masses might be the single most helpful thing to get your minis on the table with minimal fuss. The over-detailed models are a way to sell shades and contrasts, which GW painting instructions rely on, no?
Makes me glad I 3d print all my stuff, if an stl comes with to many parts putting them together in blender is so much quicker than physically fiddling with them.
I got into 40k in 2021 and my first models were the new Ork boyz from the combat patrol. They're push to fit which is supposed to be easier, but as a new person i thought they were a nightmare. I bought some of the old boyz not too long after and just gluing flat surfaces together was SO much easier and allowed for way better customisation, even if the poses aren't as good.
The chaos knights kit in AoS is a push fit nightmare of weirdly shaped, easily breakable pieces covered in very thumb unfriendly spikes. I eventually gave up on the ones I had
I thoroughly believe in the ways of flat surfaces and ball joints are the way to go for the most enjoyable building experience. Old deathrattle skeletons and even old space marines like tactical squad still do well by that.
Overly detailed GW minis is something I was complaining about 15 years ago. Between that and the prices I’ve long since stopped buying GW minis and use alternate manufacturers now.
I remember when they used to be so simple, maybe a shield here and there, an extra head or two to chose from, arm with a sword or a spear. Painted up fairly quickly for mass units. Now I look at a box for a minute or two, think how much work it would be to assemble, put it back on the shelve, and then order a bunch of Mantic or Oathmark units.
I'm currently assembling some Kill Teams after years out of the wargame scene, and they absolutely have been splitting parts into sub-assemblies to an irritating degree. And it's all still monopose!
Ive been building a witch hunter Mordheim warband using frostgrave kits and gw models. The frostgrave kits have been way more fun to hobby and be creative❤
Man, I can relate. These days I mostly work on 3dprinted minis or Victrix and Mantic ones, so when I sat down to finally get done orks kill team from the Octarius set that a friend gave me a while back I was really annoyed with how much time assembly took. Just locating the right part on the sprue (and they weren't located in a very intuitive manner either) took ages. I would also agree that GW models tend to have too much detail and often it is modularity that is sacrificed to achieve that oversaturation of details.
I actually enjoy the building and kitbashing process. There's a lot of fun ways to make things from the little bits that seem to be less useful. That being said I will occasionally leave parts off models that are entirely superfluous and save them for kitbashes I do to hide gaps or fill out less interesting areas. I can understand how it can be stressful for people though and I find building with a time frame in mind makes it worse. When I'm building for the fun of it that's when time flies and I enjoy myself. When I'm following the strict specific directions I tend to be less interested personally.
In terms of GW's models, it's important to note that the models are not in very 'dynamic' positions. I've heard that the models are cut in that way so that they can avoid imposters. Which is a shame because Reaper has a lot of single piece models in similar poses.
The amount of parts helps the bigger models have less warped pieces. I'm studying equipment design in University and we're talking about injection moldin. Your pieces have to be in particular thicknesses and angles for the pieces to come off the mold without warping. If you see GW sprues, you can tell what side is the male because one of the sides is bigger than the other (making an angle) so the sprue slides easily. Yes, its also for details but don't we all hate older vehicles that cant be glued easily or have bent parts (looking at you stompas and SM vehicles). So yeah, details and consistency on quality and uniformity (and also so that your models look good even in gray plastic)
Oof! Scraping mould lines off of space marines! I'm so past that now. Not only do you have to scrape, you've then got to sand the flat spot to blend it with the rounded armour.
I always liked building model planes and such so I never look at it from the perspective of whether something has too many parts. I enjoy the process, sometimes even more than painting, and I have no problem with it taking a while. Now where I do have issues is HOW the model is divided. If I have to hold 3 separate pieces simultaneously to glue them together then the designer responsible for it better never show their face in front of me.
I must confess that I have up on star wars legions because of the intricacies of building the basic battle droid. Those arms and legs are extremely fiddly!
I like that different items of a model are separate pieces, such as ammo pouches, pistol holsters, purity seals and trinkets because then you can choose whether or not to put them on the model. My issue is when the body of a space marine is separated into parts by a wobbly line going from the left arm to the right leg through the torso. It makes kit-bashing difficult. What's also frustrating is that we have these new upgrade sprues for primaris with chapter specific pouldrons, but the pouldrons aren't separate peices on the sprue and you have to cut them away.
I've often said a lot of GW models look like the guy was sprayed with glue and fell into a keychain display. I like detail but so many seem unnecessarily busy to me.
I don't think that GW miniatures are too detailed, not exactly. When I started years ago, coming from military scale modelling (albeit as a kid), GW kits were much simpler. Over time I think they got simpler still but for a number of years have been getting more complex again. The issue for me is that whereas the complexity used to be in the number of discrete components, now the sprue is broken down into all sorts of oddness designed to facilitate the building of a monopose model. I'd be fine if minis today were as detailed and complex as they are if a humanoid consisted of two legs, a body, a head, two arms, a weapon, a backpack, etc. But instead we have piece a) shoe, knee and jaw, piece b) right thigh and abdomen, piece c) left nipple, back and right elbow, etc. So we now get no* benefit from the complexity. *Not really no benefit as presumably GW do this to enable them to fit very fancy models onto sprues and generally I think people like dynamically-posed models. But the benefit is indirect compared with being able to convert or kitbash easily.
The number of pieces is one thing, but ooooh the bloody numbering on sprues. Numbering things in order of assembly just does not make sense, if you have to spend a minute or two searching for each piece. I do Gunpla as a second hobby, and those are so much better. Pieces are numbered left-to-right-top-to-bottom through the sprue. Assembly instructions are like "A5, D71, A19, C10" which looks random, but finding those is actually a breeze. I have no idea how GW sprues and instructions can be so bad with so many years of experience.
Yes, Atom, always assess and reassess, but most importantly, always finish priorities first before biting into other projects, and sometimes assembly painting works for bigger models and faster too
I've really only purchased the 60 dollar introductory set so far when it comes to tenth edition, and I think I've already tapped out. I spent WAY too much time just to put together FIVE primaris marines. I only noticed AFTER I clipped all the parts off of the sprew that all the parts were indeed numbered and that EACH individual part only went to ONE model. As someone who's been out of the 40k hobby for quite some time now I was absolutely flabbergasted. The final straw was when I got to the nids and when I clipped off the first arm for the first gaunt I was gonna assemble it of course flew off into the stratosphere. It was of course very likely the ONE arm for that ONE model. I legit tried desperately to look for this incredibly tiny arm in my cluttered studio apartment and then eventually just gave up in exasperation. I was late for work, I didn't get ANY of the painting done that I wanted to do that day, and YES I can blame GW because they ARE doing this intentionally. GW is a massive corporation at this point and they're just doing the same crap they ALL do. Maximize profits, reduce costs as much as possible, and of course secure as much return for investors as humanly possibly. GW doesn't care about their customers in the same way Coca Cola doesn't care about their customers. So yeah, it's One Page Rules for me y'all. GW can get bent as far as I'm concerned.
the good side of overdetailing is that when you are a terrible painter (me) you just need to "color within the lines" with contrast paint and you end up having a way better looking model than you should. of course the flip side is that you don't really improve as a painter (or at least at base coating) at all. Feel you on the pain of building models with too many pieces. Some Necron models are hell.
I remember when I could build GW models by first clipping everything off the sprue into a big pile, then cleaning the mould lines. I was still able to build the models and even play about with poses. Wouldn’t even dream to do that with moden GW models.
I have not really thought of “picking your failures“. While that may be true, I believe what you did was prioritize your successes. You picked the things you felt were most important - this video and building the terrain. When you prioritize in light of never having enough time for everything, inevitably some things will fall by the wayside. But that’s temporary. You will succeed in finishing this team. I have faith.
The whole 'GW's kits are too many parts' is something I really agree with. Perhaps less so the amount of parts but where they cut models. So many sculpts have their torso and/or shoulders cut in two parts, making it very difficult to put them together without a noticeable gap. Or, take the Necromunda Enfrocers. They need to be cut loose from the sprue by the shoulders - is is close to impossible to make those shoulder pads smooth as a result. I am not very good at painting and usually find it more of a hassle than fun. More than anything, when I actually try to do things like using varnish, weathering and especially highlighting, I find it often makes the models look worse. Thus, it kind of always bums me out and I am more and more just thinking I should pick a level of painting that I find looks okay, rather than look at how good everyone else is because, well, I don't want to spend most of my time paitning. I want to play. But I certainly do get disappointed when I fail trying new things which really hurst motivation. Not sure if anyone can relate to that.
The most insane thing to me about the (d)evolution of GW kits is that they somehow take more and more individual pieces to build, and yet there's less and less customization possible with the model and how its posed.
I ran into this complexity problem earlier this year building out U.S. airborne infantry from Warlord Games. The guys look great and have a lot of character, but I have to wonder the value once 60 to 80 of them are on the table (counting both sides). Their durability is also a concern. But you're absolutely right. The wargaming hobby is project work. And like any project work, it will have a time-to-completion and possibly a deadline competing with all the other things in your life (like other wargaming projects 😀). We have to make realistic estimates and prioritize properly to minimize failure and avoid burn-out. Have fun at Adepticon!
After have failed my past year goal, this 2024, I set my new (and much more realistic) goal in one vehicle or a five man squad per month, a success as long as we go, with a Red wolves Spartan a Star Phantom vindicator and a Wolfspear Redemptor this three months. Also avoiding army painting (due to lack of time to play) and aiming for more narrative and various minis. Thanks for the video!
"Do GW miniatures have too many pieces?" *Me, looking over at 1/35 Miniart T-55 with literally over 1000 pieces, including engine and interior.* "Nehh, GW ain't that bad yet."
@@SmashingSnow They're a minimum of 12 pieces each, plus the base, and need building in stages with time for glue to cure in my opinion. Makes them easier to convert than Goliaths, Orlocks or Corpse Grinders but putting a starting gang together became a chore and I usually enjoy building over painting.
My first redemptor was a huge pain in the ass to build. I build gunpla, I've built the RG Unicorn Gundam which is a highly detailed kit with lots of small pieces that only show because you can change it from normal mode to destroy mode. My first redemptor took me more than half of the amount of time to build my redemptor
I kinda think GW is cutting models so much to create illusion of value when you look at a "packed" sprue. Also note how much SPRUE is on each sprue, there are now totally unnecessary runners (the "sprue" part of sprues) between each part, even surrounding each and every Legion Imperialis infantry model, they could have fit twice as many per sprue if they wanted, nobody else uses that many runners. They're just wasting plastic to make it look like you got more than you did.
I got into this hobby during a 2022 9th edition escalation league. I chose Necrons and was pretty happy with the result I got. Then I did a 10th edition launch league with Space Marines. I had bigger plans for them, but there were fewer models. I never truly "finished" them. I'm currently wrapping up another escalation league. My Death Guard have a basic coat of paint, and some got an oil wash but again they are unfinished. I'm about to start an AOS esc league. I'm just going to be putting 3 or 4 colors on them and calling them good enough. I thought deadlines would help motivate me, but having to half-bake my paint schemes is demoralizing.
Love these videos, so please don’t see this as a «swing» at you, just an observation in general :) Managing time, expectations and scope is probably the hardest thing in the world to do well, if one has too many interests ie many projects going at once. A persons ability to determine complexity and scope of a project, and estimate/assign it the «correct» amount of time to complete (with «complete» being a fluid definition at best) falls entirely on the person doing the estimate. This is where experience come in, even though people with lots of experience keep underestimating time needed *all* the time (partially due to wishfull thinking). The order of priority, decided *before* deciding on what projects one wants to do for oneself is always those projects that affect the most people, or that other people are dependent on, in this case the terrain and boards and videos and all that. And *then*, after finishing all that decide if the «optional»/personal project is doable. Overestimating ones abilities and/or time, and underestimating the amount of work needed is always on the person doing the estimation and the work. What I don’t understand about this hobby though is this push to always do things faster and spend as little time as possible pr. item, as if it is a race to spend ones money and get as little back as possible in terms of enjoyment from the money spent. Yes, I do understand that some people like the painting better than building, some people like playing more than building and painting, and some people like building more than painting, but do enjoy playing, there are all sorts of variations on this - but hurrying through a step only to hurry on to doing that step again on another build, and complaining about it taking too long to get to the next project is what I don’t get. It’s like watching a movie and enjoying it a lot, but at the same time whishing it would be shorter so one could watch *another* movie faster … But I get it: wanting less complex models for «quick builds» and more time painting, totally get it, it’s a preference - I personally enjoy building things and constructing stuff, I am learning the painting part, it all takes time, but that’s what I’m paying for, something to spend time on that I enjoy doing, the longer it takes the more enjoyment I’m getting for my money spent, and I’m fine with that - and I do understand that when something is a job time is money, and time spent on something that doesn’t directly translate into content and cash (ie a longer build phase) is a «waste» of time. But then it’s not a GW issue, not even partially, it’s a management issue - so you should probably write an angry letter to your head manager and complain about the project managers lack of estimation skills in this case ;) Looking forward to the adepticon coverage, enjoy the weekend :)
Most of what you said I 100% agree with. But here is where I think our paths might diverge. There are people who do NOT like assembling models. The longer it takes them to assemble each model the less time they have to do the parts of the hobby which they do enjoy. So they hurry to get that step done on each of their models in order to maximize the time they want to spend on the parts they like or do not mind. Example: A person really likes the actual playing of the game vs the assembling and/or painting of the models. So that person will rush through assembly and painting so they can get models on the table to battle. To them the battle (game play) is the most important aspect of the hobby, and assembly and painting are just aspects they do not enjoy that much. In the Example above the person's hobby hours are best spent on the parts of the hobby they do enjoy while minimizing the parts of the hobby they do not enjoy (speeding through those steps). It is not as much about the money as it is about where that persons hobby hours are used and spent and how to maximize on those hobby hours.
@@ericdavis4964 Oh I totally agree with you :) And in a perfect world GW would offer options: 3D-printed versions of complex models - no assembly required, simplified versions of complex sculpts with little assembly required and so forth :) But then you risk sitting on product stock of versions not selling or selling slow, or some complex models not being available in every version due to complexity, and there would then certainly be people complaining about *that* :) Of all the options 3d-printed versions would probably be the most «doable» version, but that would open up a whole other box of problems, since selling 3d-model files for GW means people would quickly make those available to others. selling 3d models on demand (ie ordering printes models from services still means printer files must be made, and those *will* show up in «alternative» channels - but that’s a whole different discussion :) So yeah, I agree with you, and the solution would be to offer options and everybody would be happy :) But it doesn’t change the fact that GW is not responsible for somebody choosing to try and build and paint an army in way too little time and failing :)
I'm relatively new to Games Workshop games and just finished the assembly of a Deathleaper... my god, so, so, many pieces! I never would have expected it to take as long as it did for me to assemble a single model.
Great video! I might have mentioned this before but going to mostly 1/72 scale miniatures saved the hobby for me. Since most of them are just one part they are quick to prep and the smaller size is easier for me to paint. I can get an army done and spend more time on what matters more to me, playing the game! :)
I wonder if the hyper-detail level isn't the result of (as some others have commented) making it easier for Contrast Paints to do their thing, and also making the models more legally distinct from the 3D proxies out there. Personally, I don't mind if more pieces = more flexibility in posing the figures, but that often is not the case. There are a lot of great 3D sculpts out there, but honestly, I don't like the 'feel' of the resin. Maybe it's because I'm used to the GW plastic (which we have to admit, has gotten quite good). If you don't share that sentiment, then don't buy GW figures, and the marketplace will shape their future decisions... :)
As someone who does some comissions on the side, I feel bad when I charge for the time I had spent building the models(Note: I always recomend my customers to build the models themselves to save money)! I totaly agree that while the new sculpts are awesome, the extra level of details just are’nt worth it, at least when comes to basic troops models. Love the video Adam, hope you have fun at adepticon!
As a gamer first: absolutely too much detail. No one, not my friends nor my opponents at the few tournaments I've been too, are looking that close at my models. Even some of the ones that people are impressed by (such as my British 8th Army) are people really looking that closely; they look awesome on the tabletop and that's all they really need to be. When I look at a GW model and I see it has so much detail, I usually just feel exhausted and have minimal motivation to actually bother painting it. I can do it, sure, but it feels like a slog that I don't want to start.
Interesting and topical. So I just started delving into this hobby in January and I've been building exclusively gw kits. I had no concept of how long this all would take to get my Imp Guard army up and running. It follows the same trend too with every model. I get the body or hull built rather quickly then everything slows down when the detail work comes in. It's rather discouraging for new hobbyists that are really wanting to play. It's not to say I don't enjoy building and customizing models and all that but dammit I want to play. I hope you all have a blast at Adepticon! This is a really good video and I appreciate your perspective.
I too think that the new GW models have too many details. I also don't like that most of the models are in fact monopose. You only can build that gunner in that way and no other, except you are going to kitbash it. The older models had a lot more options to pose them and were much easier to build, in my opinion. A lot less parts that had to be cleaned up from mold lines etc. Yes they may have looked a bit clunky (I hope I wrote that correctly?) when you look closely, but on the table they looked fine.
The old Tac marine squad was always the most fun for me to build. Posing and customizing marines in unique ways feels far more rewarding than slapping together 10 monopose models, and then wondering why GW felt basic troops need so much extra detail.
The painting part seems faster with the overly detailed models because I can cheat and use base color primers, a speedy drybrush, and a wash to bust out a squad quickly. That said, for my Ultramarines specifically, it’s really frustrating finding places on the models for decals. I like to put campaign badges on my marines when they do something cool in a game or whatever, but either way all the little greeblies and bits all over them, there’s no flat surfaces on a lot of them for decals to fit.
I like your comment of just because a sculptor sculpted it that doesnt mean you have to paint it. I do like all the detail to be there when I really want to make a paintjob shine but its so freeing to not feel like I have address each and every minute element. After 30 years of being around this hobby do paint this way. I do what needs to be done to tabletop finish a model. And then afterwards I will ...or maybe never ...go back in to touch up details. To be honest unless its a focal point detail thing... I rarely go back.
Couldn't agree more, some of the heads for Necromunda (Escher and Enforcers are my recent experience) are 2 piece (and in some cases 3 if you count the ponytails). Why does the face and the head need to be separate, for the Escher it does allow you to mix hairstyles with faces but for the Enforcers they are all the same helmet!
Uncle A making think of things as an existential crisis. “You never have as much time as you think” great advice about hobbies. AND LIFE! I’M FREE NOW! Thanks!
Totally agree. I tried to get back into GW... wow four years ago, with a SoB army and man, each mini was like a jigsaw of parts. That project floundered after just a squad and an HQ.
I hadn't realised it before this video but it really explains why I struggle with getting boxes actually built and painted, GW really do split the newer models into far too many pieces, but for all the extra detail it just ends up causing even more work where the parts don't fully line up and there's that slight gap.
The last miniature project that I completed was a squad of death korps of krieg from kill team. Then last week I started a battalion of british infantry of the AWI period from perry miniatures. The difference is mind-blowing: they are such a pleasure to clean, build and paint that I don't remember the last time that I had this much fun with miniatures.
Yep, try newer Fireforge Games stuff, they're great. Victrix are pretty superb, with astonishing value. Some 60+ figures for $35, etc. Northstar's stuff is pretty solid, particularly the later Frostgrave kits, etc.
The most egregious "weird cut" I remember seeing is a push-fit Stormcast where one piece was the head, one foot and a thin slice of the back connecting one to the other! Honestly, part of me has suspected that the complexity of the kits is to discourage conversions & kitbashing; I know that sounds like hyperbole, but I remember James Hewitt saying on The Painting Phase that kits are designed to make sure that you can't just kitbash that unit yourself from existing kits.
Going back to GW after Legion minis and even Crisis Protocol made me realise how onerous most GW kit assemblies have become, something that that I also transferred to the painting. It is not universal the new flesh-eaters are fantastic, mostly, but their aesthetic is pretty minimal. I have also found the deeper sprues GW uses seem to produce much more flash on minis than other companies' hard plastic
Someone once told me that the increasing complexity was in part to make it harder to recast or produce STL “knock-offs.” Whether that’s true or not, I am definitely in the camp of simplicity. By all means, sell me an upgrade sprue (ideally, make it an optional sprue in the box, but let’s be realistic!) but not every Guardsman, Orc or even Space Marine is a main character and needs to be festooned with bits and pieces. I liked that about the older generation boxes
I've watched a lot of "Grand Designs" and I picked up the same lessons from all those projects as well. Things will almost always cost more, take longer &/or diminish in quality; and you can generally only prioritise one of those factors. Since they were building their dream homes that usually ment blown budgets and more time dedicated to delivering the quality they hoped for. So maybe give yourself a wider margin of error in your initial estimates.
I didn’t expect to get such stellar life advice from a video titled “Did Games Workshop Make Me Fail?” but I am very happy I did!! “You never have as much time as you think” and “you have to pick your battles, and sometimes you have to pick your failures” (or as I prefer: know when to make concessions) are life mottos to live by *especially* for people with the dreadful combo of perfectionism and ADHD 😂 Loved the video! An awesome unexpected gem 😁💎
I totally agree. I miss the old style marines that you could easily assembly line build and assemble a squad in less than an hour. One reason I loved the Heresy game. No sushi sliced 500 part marines.
Miniature companies dont take the modelling aspect into account when designing their models or their sprues. I build WW2 plane and armor models. The modelling aspect is night and day in comparison. The placement of the sprue gates on a scale model are usually in places where they wont be seen or where removal will be easier, miniature companies will put them somewhere stupid like hair or fur.
I think putting together the models is another aspect of the hobby not just painting and gaming. I quite enjoy it in fact. The modular nature of the minis makes it easy to kitbash your own with minimal effort. Something GW seems to encourage given all the "extras" on the sprues. Take the Inceptors for example. I don't like the snowshoe landing gear so I clipped it off. Easy as it was two separate pieces. Also not a big fan of the bolter shields but they can be left of if I want. I think more pieces gives you more options. Including pieces from other sets. Same as painting, you don't need to build like it's shown on the box.
I think it is good to have quality, high-detailled models. But sometimes, I just want/need a lot of fodder which makes me nostalgic for the good old one-print sideways models. Just a single, solid "meeple" which will enforce your will in regiments of 40 on the table.
I've been painting a "bunch" of resin models recently that I've picked up. I decided to paint some Warhammer models because they look cool. After spending 2 1/2 hours assembling the first five infantryman from the Solar Auxilia boxed set, with 11 pieces each plus base, I fully understand this. I then assembled the six models in the Saviours of Cinderfall Callis and Toll box, all push fit, in about an hour. There's a lot of variance in Warhammer models. I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to make an army!
I say this as someone who enjoys collecting, building and painting miniatures more so than actually playing games with them. GW has been "oversculpting" many of its miniatures for years now. Just because you can stick additional detail onto a a miniature doesn't mean you should. Most of us have a limited amount of time in which to build and paint these models. And for the people who frequently use their models in games, they need robust models that can withstand the rigors of frequently travel and handling. Most often, that generally means more simple, compact miniatures with less pieces and protruding bits. I'm convinced the GW desing team unfortunately doesn't really care about any of these concerns.
Just finished building a box of Bretonnian knights on foot ... Their heads were split into multiple parts! Totally agree, the models are too complex and over detailed
Bought some Warhammer Fantasy High Elves recently. These are old models, but each is, at most, three pieces. The finished product looks fine. I completely agree with your thoughts. Even older Eldar Farseers, with flowing cloaks, are about three pieces. Something can be said about bringing in simplicity. Great video!
I'm painting corsair voidscarred these days. They have perfectly modeled butts that make people cross the border despite the fact that none of them are visible once assembled
I've learnt something recently about "the hobby". I build wargame miniatures, but a family member who builds scale models recently gave me a 1/35 tank, as a challenge. The component parts of which are ridiculously overcomplicated. No one needs to have tank track links in 3 pieces. But I realised that the scale model builders amongst us are into the process of the build.
My chieftain tank now has a lovely enamel red paint scheme, and will soon have a lively grot crew, but it impressed upon me that some modellers are just into "the build" and the more parts and the more complexity the better.
I’m here for the building and painting! Not a fan of models that come already almost built !
@minishaw280 me too. I don't play, but love kitbashing my ever growing ork army. Every one of which is different.
The most advanced build I've probably made was a resin Cerastus Castigator Knight. Having to create my own pose from scratch and cut and position every piston to fit the pose was daunting but some modelling projects you just take at your own pace and enjoy the process. The problem I have with modern GW kits is not that they are made from lots of parts, it's that those parts often aren't recognisable until they are fitted to the model. Instead of an arm you might get a random chunk of plastic that fits to a random piece of plastic to make an arm. Sometimes it's hard to tell how the parts fit, so you just rotate them randomly until the parts just sort of mesh together. Gone are the days of ill-fitting pegs I suppose.
Wait until you find out the really serious builders replace 30% of the model with even more complex photo-etched replacement parts.
It's cars rather than tanks for me, but yes I do like kits with a lot of parts. Not so much from the POV of "yay complexity", but an engine that's split up into block, head, exhaust etc has way more opportunities to paint the individual bits and it look more like a miniature engine than an approximation of an engine, which some of the simpler kits have.
It’s so weirdly fascinating.... this hobby, I mean. With GW rereleasing the old WHF models for TOW, you have so many people complaining about the relative simplicity of the old sculpts. Also the people who complain about the lack of detail and options on the push fit versions of more recent kits. Apparently, if we believe the statistics, the vast majority of GW’s customers are hobbyists who seldom or never actually play a game of 40k or AoS. So clearly, it’s in the company’s best interest to design a product that caters to the builder, customizer and painter... not the person who’s trying to get 2000 points on the table in a week.
All this video proves is that you can’t make everyone happy and everyone will find something to complain about.
One guy in our group quited the hobby after one and a half decades because tyranids (his main army) got a range update in 10th edition... You cannot make all people happy.
I mean, you're not wrong about the "average" 40K customer. The customer is now someone who buys a lot of new models, poorly assembles them, doesn't paint them, but spends 92% of their time complaining or arguing about a game they don't play. You see the same customer in D&D. They're a customer of the idea...not the actual game. Which is good, as neither of the games is particularly good! :D
@@uwesca6263one and a half decades is such an unnecessarily poetic way to say 15 years that it really fits in well with the ridiculous context
Think about this how much warhammer do you think a carefull moddeler buys and how much warhammer a 2000 points in a week for a tournament guy buys. Guy like that (aka me) are likely the whales of the miniture industry
Personally I hated the push fit of my command edition starter set and when I got my first full Intercessors kit I was was happier with how everything came together. The building is actually my favorite part, so I'm biased and enjoy all the smaller pieces. It's like graduating from regular LEGO to Technic for me. As for the detail, I really appreciate the effort and details going into the sculpts. I'm reminded of a great quote: "I don't know the key to success, but I know the key to failure is to try and please everyone."
About over-detailing - a possible explanation to its increase on GW models is that they aren't necessarily aimed at professional level painters exclusively. The higher the level of detail is, the more work things like contrast paints and washes do on the model - something that's not really a net benefit when you're already doing all your texturing and rendering "by hand" while painting, but that allows simpler and faster painting methods to look better than they would on more plain and smooth surfaces.
Ya I have a similar issue~ I’m new to this painting miniature. I am so frustrated that the result felt better with contrast paint + washes… than put in hours to base coat and trying to fix all the mistake during some of the highlight and painting those tiny stuff on them.
Posted something similar and then saw this. This is 100% true. It doesn't have to be detail per se - it's more about the texture than about detail per se, and GW is sometimes guilty of loading up the details when really they would be better off just focusing on lines and texture instead - but sharp lines and a general lack of open empty space on models is a great boon to those of us who are intermediate level painters. The easiest way to make models look good on the table even if you aren't a professional painter is to have good contrast, and sharply delineated surfaces and good texture make that far easier to achieve.
The big open smooth surface is one of the hardest things to do well in miniature painting, and I'm not sad that GW doesn't cater more to the professional painters who see that as a plus rather than a minus. There's plenty of other miniatures designed for display painting for people who want a freer canvas to express their skill on.
@@assistantref5084 I would say, this is both a blessing and a curse.
On the one hand, it does genuinely make fast painting methods (contrast paints, speedpaint, etc) return much better results than they would on a blander model;
On the other hand, for people trying to improve their painting, especially when they are already intermediate painters who want to try more complex stuff, but are not yet comfortable enough with the brush to tackle very small details, this can possibly make painting more difficult.
Personally, I still like the amount of detail that GW puts on their models these days, but I acknowledge they can be a problem for numerous reasons and for people at many painting skill levels.
@@AlikUncle Personally, if I only ever had smooth surfaces to work on, I never would have got to even the decent journeyman level I'm currently at. The big revelation for me was figuring out contrast (the concept, not the paints, which I have never used), and I wouldn't have done that with big smooth surfaces - I would have just gotten frustrated with my inability to produce convincing contrast using blending and shading the way the pros do, and then written off good-looking miniatures as something only the truly talented and/or trained could do, akin to flat canvas painting.
FWIW weirdly I don't think GW miniatures actually look all that great painted the way GW painters paint miniatures. GW puts way too much priority on clean brushwork and edge highlighting and way too little on contrast and volumetric shading, and it doesn't actually showcase the strengths of the miniatures.
I see that point and I hope they don't do that. They should design their paints for their models. Not the other way round hahaha
i also feel that the way gw have designed their newer models have been designed specifically to limit if not bar compatiblity with third party pieces. the old simple cadian models were clearly defined separate sections like torsos were one part, legs were one to two parts and it was easy to swap in alternative parts even from within their own range to spice things up but now with the new cadians it's an utter pain in the ass to do it
In my opinion the Direction they have taken forgets one major thing , these figures are toys used to play a game. And all these fancy doodads they are slapping on everything just make them more delicate. It's also making them more and more scarce on my painting table .
You see this a LOT with modern Kits, Orks being the most obvious since they still sell the old multipart kits and the new monopose kit so Ork players are left with a choice...do you get the much better looking but fixed loadout updated boyz, meaning if you want a squad of all shootas or all sluggas and choppas you need to do some very awkward kitbashing OR do you get the much derpier looking, smaller multipart boyz kit?
Was hoping one of the big reveals for Orks in 10th would have been a new multipart kit...but GW seem to be moving away from multipart kits for the reason you gave...so people can't use 3rd party parts very easily anymore.
@@CharlesEntrekin- see thats where yer wrong. Citadel is a MODEL company that just happens to have a game, not a game company with good models. Theyve never been a game company, the models are an excuse to sell you a game.
I honestly feel like that is the case, as well as making it harder to recast.
@DismemberTheAlamo you are correct. The hobby is modeling, painting, and playing. The whole game existd to sell these models. What cracks me up most is people will cry about the part count or the fiddly bits while also bemoaning the price point. These models are expensive because they're generally a high detail and quality than anything else on the market. This video just makes me think this guy is a shit modeler and painter who overloaded himself with work and then cry posted about parts because he needs content
The Briggs/Chase Law of program development (this applies to A LOT more than programming):
To determine how long it will take to write and debug a program, take your best estimate, multiply that by two, add one, and convert to the next higher unit of measure.
For example, if you estimate (truly think) it will take you 6 weeks, then:
6 weeks * 2 = 12 weeks.
add 1 = 13 weeks.
then convert to the next highest unit of measure: 13 months.
It will probably take 13 months.
This, in my 40 years of software development and project management, has turned out to be incredibly accurate.
Just sayin'
:)
"Failure" is where learning happens!
good video, thank you.
Okay, as a firmware engineer with but 20 years of experience, I thought I had it sorted, but you've taken this to a whole new level of mathematical precision. Thank you for this comment.
Modern GW models mostly killed my joy of BUILDING models. I am more of a builder and converter, and have fond memories of clipping a whole regiment of 20 Orcs from their sprues - torso, legs, two arms and a head per model - and build them: picking my parts of choice, mixing things as I go along, and ending up with a bunch of "my dud... Orcs" at the end. This is completely impossible today.
Not only is each model an unreasonable amount of parts, you also HAVE to follow the instruction. You need half a degree in aerospace engineering or years of experience in following IKEA instructions, and it JUST IS NOT FUN AT ALL.
Not cool GW, not cool at all.
Me when my date sees my 5000p of Space Marines and politely finds an excuse to leave
I kept my hobby a secret until after my marriage, and then she was to late to run. LOL
You'll have more satisfaction from your 5000pts of Space Marines than you would have got from a woman like that :P
Are they painted?
Surely that's a tick in the "pro" column? "Capable of long-term commitment in the face of adversity."
She saw how small your point count was, and left to find someone with an ork army, with an order of magnitude more points... She wasn't looking for some low-effort scrub.
@@andrewamann2821God this feels like one of those terrible "Sorry we don't let anyone with below 1 million power score into this club/resturant/venue" shitty mobile ads but with WarHams.
I agree that the trend toward taking a single item and breaking it down into a multitude of parts with the GW miniatures seems to be increasing. The hobby has taken on a quasi-jigsaw puzzle nature with some of the models. 3 parts to create a single leg ... I do like the increased detail that the plastic models have over the pewter (or lead) miniatures being made when I first started with the hobby. There have been some of the figures I have created that frustrated me to no end with the fiddly bits to make up some sections of them.
"I sat down early Sunday morning to start building those Inceptors." Aaah, Inceptors... and here I was expecting to hear all about getting the damn things on those flying sticks! 😂 Interesting points about picking what and where to 'fail,' especially with self-imposed targets and goals in a hobby like this. Thanks for the Pshaow! ✌
One of the best books I have read in a long while is "Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away" by Annie Duke. It's an exceptional book that debunks the myth the "Winners never quit".... It's knowing what (and when) to quit that makes the winner.....
I still love my 2ed marines from the 90s. 2 or 3 pieces each. Fast to put together, quick to paint. It was like they wanted you to play the game.
I enjoy the assembly process, and the detail amount. I mean most of the time I leave some of the pieces on the sprue, but it's good to have the option.
Designers of models work on oversized monitors where the models are 12" tall or more when they zoom in. So they are sculpting details to make the model look amazing. Of course when we print that mini at 1.5" tall, most of those details are invisible to the naked eye and impossible to paint individually. sigh.
OPR is on the same over-detailed train, but at least we can print them in just a few pieces.
GW drain me and after 37 years I stopped buying them 😢
I have flipped to Mantic and my hobby energy has burst back to life! Easy to build not to busy and they look great in squads!
If GW ever go back to hobby and not a life style I’ll head back over.
I feel the exact same way about many GW models - SO many parts that dont need to be separate!! it's so frustrating because it's always some tiny thing, even if it's a midsized model. I'm convinced they just want to fill out the sprue frame so that it's packed, so that it feels like you're "getting more".
This is not true. If you want plastic models looking the best they can, they need to be in a lot of parts.
@@martinjrgensen8234agreed, certain details need to be seperate or the molding process wouldn't work
@@BattlebrotherPhil up to a certain point.. one of the models i got has like a grill with a lot of spikes sticking out. in between 2 of the spikes was an empty hole with the instructions to cut out a spike and glue it into the hole. That's not complexity that's just stupid.
I see other comments about scale models and their complexity - but which is driven by a desire for accuracy. The thing that separates them from GW is that sub-assemblies in scale models are usually actual things (engines, gun mounts, etc) as opposed to 3 bits of the same arm. And look at the sprues from scale model kits - they aren't obsessed with using every micrometer of space for parts which makes getting the cutter to a workable angle for taking the parts off way easier . . .
The concept there is never enough time is a rule for our finite lives. It is good to have goals and targets but we should try to enjoy as much as we can of the journey because that is what tend to spend the most time on.
Been building models for forty years, and the modern GW kits are indeed very hard to assemble. I have to follow the instructions and they only go together one way. Inceptor flight stands are next-gen level of frustration!
I painted a full napoleonic regiment during lockdown (something over 1,000 minis) and after taking a break, I recently got back into it after visiting the Games Workshop cafe in Tokyo in January. I hadn't really followed any GW stuff or news in the past 15 or so years (at least from the hobby side of things) so I picked up the Exaction Squad Kill team thinking it would be a nice little intro back into sci fi side of wargaming (plus they remind me a lot of Judge Dredd lol) but I was amazed/shocked at how many parts and sprues I got in the box. I think assembling the squad of 10 and the cybermastiff, I'm still left with 60% unused bits and pieces from the various customisation options. Even the instructions and the sprue numbering for the parts was a lot more confusing than I seem to remember. 😅
I have never played a single game yet but i kinda painted roughly 30 gaunts, a psychophage, hive tyrant, screamer killer, norn emissary, 4 dreadnoughts, the company heroes, sword breathen, intercessor squad, and custodes hehe i guess im really just into the painting and building them up. But i hope someday i can learn how to play
It's like when I paint some historicals and remember what it's like to not spend as long assembling minis as it takes to paint them. Except for Victrix. I love Victrix but they are not one or two piece historical models.
IDK... But I always think the people who design those sprues are geniuses. Sure every now and then there's something that stumps me, but I'm always amazed. I think GW makes the absolute best minis. I've failed at painting my armies for years, but I tend to build them reasonably quickly after buying them and I have no complaints about the level of detail or quality.
"You don't always have to paint every detail." I had a buddy I could tell was getting frustrated painting every bib and bob a different color or shade. Since he's not entering these in a painting competition, I suggested he stick to four colors at most and perhaps the pouches on a bandolier could be the same color as the bandolier itself. He finished his force much faster and we had fun much sooner.
Just a comment on the number of parts for models. When I started 40k proper, my standard tactical space marine had, a head, a torso, pair of legs, two arms, back pack, and a standard weapon plus any additional optional items. Optional items included, grenades, knife in scabbard, a scope for the gun, heavy weapons option with ammo. So a base model had at least 6 parts, just allowing more flexibility in construction. That was the 90's, is it really any less of a construction issue?
As someone who just wants to "play the darn game", with age has come a new mantra when assembling and especially painting: "It's not just good... **wink, nod, finger gun** It's good enough."
fair point hahah table top ready as they say
One of the answers you seek and GW won`t give us is slide molding (when the mold have more than just 2 parts). I saw GW using that only on some Baneblade parts only. That alone could give us less parts and pre-drilled barrels. Lots of scale model manufactures use that because it`s hard to sell another Panther kit without new cool features. Gunpla kits use that very often (and we won`t talk about pre-assembled movable parts on sprue like in RG line). Sure GW can afford that if they want.
But yeah, mostly it`s sculpting choices having lots of small unnecessary details...
I generally enjoy painting GW sculpts. But there is definitely a lot of work in getting them ready for paint. If I want to get something up to display quality, just getting everything cut, sanded, mold lines cleaned, and gap filling if needed, just takes a lot of time. When I got my new deathwing stuff I spent one whole hobby session just getting the models built, just for a 5 man squad. I'm not claiming to work quickly or efficiently, but I'm pretty experienced at building models at this point. I do also enjoy the build/kitbash phase of a project as a bit of a break from painting. It's something different and scratches a different part of my creative side.
In terms of the details on the models. I think the lack of pouches is something that I really enjoy about the new terminators. They do just have open space to play around with. I'm not out to get a golden demon, but I do like to paint to a pretty high level just for my own enjoyment. Alternatively, the new Asmodai kit is pretty detailed, and had a reasonable amount of gap filling, but I absolutely loved painting it. It is a tough balance. I think GW needs to scale back infinitary detailing, but keep elites, characters, and vehicles about where they are.
As a freelancer of nearly twenty five years, if I want to a) keep a client and make them happy, and b) can afford to schedule the extra time for a job I usually double up the proscribed 'turn-around' time. For example, if I know a project can be completed in a week to nine days I will quote two weeks and usually deliver around day twelve.
It's taken a long time to arrive at this formula and there's still quite a few instances where my time-tabling has all gone terribly wrong, but usually the home spun adage is; it'll take **twice** as long as you think.
I believe that the Rolling Stones summed it up pretty well with the lyrics:
"You can't always get what you want.
But if you try sometimes, you just might find,
You get what you need, "
We had this conversation at my FLGS, GW does have the prettiest models out there that isn't coming from a bespoke shop and artist. But we don't need every grunt model to be ready, off the sprue, to go compete in the Golden Demon. We don't need minis we are afraid to touch fo fear of breaking them, we need minis we can play with, scoop up by the handful to charge the enemy position, and ones that won't shatter when we accidentally knock them over. Army commander, big bad whatever on your team, sure, those you can make as fancy as possible. Everything else make it easy to tell what it is from across the table, but let's go back to as simple as possible. Is that too much to ask?
Also in the gaming space, saw a discussion on a board games forum, and board games have gotten so wildly complicated, when a creator asked the group what they wanted to see over the next year or so, the answer was a cry for simpler. Make simpler games that don't take up cubic yards of shelf space and an entire weekend to play. We have plenty of those games, we want a small taste of something different that we don't feel bad for taking that taste because it didn't take a lot of time to do it.
As soon as you mentioned Redemptor and Inceptors, I knew the pain. I would like more for my marines, but I remember the pain of building them. I also find the new kits take forever. I sit down saturday lunchtime with a couple of kits at most. Maybe by 8pm I might be done building them. By that time, I’m done, mentally exhausted. I hobby to unwind from work, but I need a way to unwind from the hobby at times.
Shout out to Troy, Sonic Sledgehammer, his righteous crusade to bring Marine Juice to the masses might be the single most helpful thing to get your minis on the table with minimal fuss.
The over-detailed models are a way to sell shades and contrasts, which GW painting instructions rely on, no?
Love to see the juice in use! :D
Makes me glad I 3d print all my stuff, if an stl comes with to many parts putting them together in blender is so much quicker than physically fiddling with them.
I got into 40k in 2021 and my first models were the new Ork boyz from the combat patrol. They're push to fit which is supposed to be easier, but as a new person i thought they were a nightmare.
I bought some of the old boyz not too long after and just gluing flat surfaces together was SO much easier and allowed for way better customisation, even if the poses aren't as good.
Imagine push fit on a spindly model like a necron warrior.
Yup, the old boys were a blast to build and you could really kustomize them to be unique and goofy! 😊
The chaos knights kit in AoS is a push fit nightmare of weirdly shaped, easily breakable pieces covered in very thumb unfriendly spikes. I eventually gave up on the ones I had
@@giantninja9173 I put together some of those and boy howdy they were awful.
I thoroughly believe in the ways of flat surfaces and ball joints are the way to go for the most enjoyable building experience. Old deathrattle skeletons and even old space marines like tactical squad still do well by that.
Overly detailed GW minis is something I was complaining about 15 years ago.
Between that and the prices I’ve long since stopped buying GW minis and use alternate manufacturers now.
I remember when they used to be so simple, maybe a shield here and there, an extra head or two to chose from, arm with a sword or a spear. Painted up fairly quickly for mass units. Now I look at a box for a minute or two, think how much work it would be to assemble, put it back on the shelve, and then order a bunch of Mantic or Oathmark units.
My friend is assembling Blood Angels Inceptors right now. He is going through exactly the same thing. The backpacks have a silly number of parts.
I'm currently assembling some Kill Teams after years out of the wargame scene, and they absolutely have been splitting parts into sub-assemblies to an irritating degree. And it's all still monopose!
Ive been building a witch hunter Mordheim warband using frostgrave kits and gw models. The frostgrave kits have been way more fun to hobby and be creative❤
This is precisely why I love the Stargrave and Frostgrave minis. So simple to assemble and paint up.
As for failure. I tend to just buckle down and finish. Or switch projects then come back to it refreshed.
They really are great. Thanks for watching!
Man, I can relate. These days I mostly work on 3dprinted minis or Victrix and Mantic ones, so when I sat down to finally get done orks kill team from the Octarius set that a friend gave me a while back I was really annoyed with how much time assembly took. Just locating the right part on the sprue (and they weren't located in a very intuitive manner either) took ages. I would also agree that GW models tend to have too much detail and often it is modularity that is sacrificed to achieve that oversaturation of details.
I actually enjoy the building and kitbashing process. There's a lot of fun ways to make things from the little bits that seem to be less useful. That being said I will occasionally leave parts off models that are entirely superfluous and save them for kitbashes I do to hide gaps or fill out less interesting areas. I can understand how it can be stressful for people though and I find building with a time frame in mind makes it worse. When I'm building for the fun of it that's when time flies and I enjoy myself. When I'm following the strict specific directions I tend to be less interested personally.
I love kitbashing, but I understand that it’s not a quick process. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions definitely makes things more annoying to paint. I've stopped projects and armies before due to "excessive doodad syndrome"
In terms of GW's models, it's important to note that the models are not in very 'dynamic' positions. I've heard that the models are cut in that way so that they can avoid imposters. Which is a shame because Reaper has a lot of single piece models in similar poses.
The amount of parts helps the bigger models have less warped pieces. I'm studying equipment design in University and we're talking about injection moldin. Your pieces have to be in particular thicknesses and angles for the pieces to come off the mold without warping. If you see GW sprues, you can tell what side is the male because one of the sides is bigger than the other (making an angle) so the sprue slides easily. Yes, its also for details but don't we all hate older vehicles that cant be glued easily or have bent parts (looking at you stompas and SM vehicles). So yeah, details and consistency on quality and uniformity (and also so that your models look good even in gray plastic)
Oof! Scraping mould lines off of space marines! I'm so past that now.
Not only do you have to scrape, you've then got to sand the flat spot to blend it with the rounded armour.
I always liked building model planes and such so I never look at it from the perspective of whether something has too many parts. I enjoy the process, sometimes even more than painting, and I have no problem with it taking a while. Now where I do have issues is HOW the model is divided. If I have to hold 3 separate pieces simultaneously to glue them together then the designer responsible for it better never show their face in front of me.
Just did lauka vai her breastplate shoudl be done earlier in build I swear.
I must confess that I have up on star wars legions because of the intricacies of building the basic battle droid. Those arms and legs are extremely fiddly!
I like that different items of a model are separate pieces, such as ammo pouches, pistol holsters, purity seals and trinkets because then you can choose whether or not to put them on the model. My issue is when the body of a space marine is separated into parts by a wobbly line going from the left arm to the right leg through the torso. It makes kit-bashing difficult. What's also frustrating is that we have these new upgrade sprues for primaris with chapter specific pouldrons, but the pouldrons aren't separate peices on the sprue and you have to cut them away.
I've often said a lot of GW models look like the guy was sprayed with glue and fell into a keychain display. I like detail but so many seem unnecessarily busy to me.
I just read your comment to my friend Sam Lenz (we’re together at AdeptiCon) and he laughed out loud. Thanks for watching!
I don't think that GW miniatures are too detailed, not exactly. When I started years ago, coming from military scale modelling (albeit as a kid), GW kits were much simpler. Over time I think they got simpler still but for a number of years have been getting more complex again.
The issue for me is that whereas the complexity used to be in the number of discrete components, now the sprue is broken down into all sorts of oddness designed to facilitate the building of a monopose model.
I'd be fine if minis today were as detailed and complex as they are if a humanoid consisted of two legs, a body, a head, two arms, a weapon, a backpack, etc. But instead we have piece a) shoe, knee and jaw, piece b) right thigh and abdomen, piece c) left nipple, back and right elbow, etc.
So we now get no* benefit from the complexity.
*Not really no benefit as presumably GW do this to enable them to fit very fancy models onto sprues and generally I think people like dynamically-posed models. But the benefit is indirect compared with being able to convert or kitbash easily.
The number of pieces is one thing, but ooooh the bloody numbering on sprues. Numbering things in order of assembly just does not make sense, if you have to spend a minute or two searching for each piece.
I do Gunpla as a second hobby, and those are so much better. Pieces are numbered left-to-right-top-to-bottom through the sprue. Assembly instructions are like "A5, D71, A19, C10" which looks random, but finding those is actually a breeze.
I have no idea how GW sprues and instructions can be so bad with so many years of experience.
Yes, Atom, always assess and reassess, but most importantly, always finish priorities first before biting into other projects, and sometimes assembly painting works for bigger models and faster too
I've really only purchased the 60 dollar introductory set so far when it comes to tenth edition, and I think I've already tapped out. I spent WAY too much time just to put together FIVE primaris marines. I only noticed AFTER I clipped all the parts off of the sprew that all the parts were indeed numbered and that EACH individual part only went to ONE model. As someone who's been out of the 40k hobby for quite some time now I was absolutely flabbergasted. The final straw was when I got to the nids and when I clipped off the first arm for the first gaunt I was gonna assemble it of course flew off into the stratosphere.
It was of course very likely the ONE arm for that ONE model. I legit tried desperately to look for this incredibly tiny arm in my cluttered studio apartment and then eventually just gave up in exasperation. I was late for work, I didn't get ANY of the painting done that I wanted to do that day, and YES I can blame GW because they ARE doing this intentionally. GW is a massive corporation at this point and they're just doing the same crap they ALL do. Maximize profits, reduce costs as much as possible, and of course secure as much return for investors as humanly possibly. GW doesn't care about their customers in the same way Coca Cola doesn't care about their customers. So yeah, it's One Page Rules for me y'all. GW can get bent as far as I'm concerned.
I really enjoy putting together GW models. Especially the ones consisting of several pieces. Opening a new box feels like christmas.
the good side of overdetailing is that when you are a terrible painter (me) you just need to "color within the lines" with contrast paint and you end up having a way better looking model than you should. of course the flip side is that you don't really improve as a painter (or at least at base coating) at all.
Feel you on the pain of building models with too many pieces. Some Necron models are hell.
I remember when I could build GW models by first clipping everything off the sprue into a big pile, then cleaning the mould lines.
I was still able to build the models and even play about with poses.
Wouldn’t even dream to do that with moden GW models.
I have not really thought of “picking your failures“. While that may be true, I believe what you did was prioritize your successes. You picked the things you felt were most important - this video and building the terrain. When you prioritize in light of never having enough time for everything, inevitably some things will fall by the wayside.
But that’s temporary. You will succeed in finishing this team. I have faith.
The whole 'GW's kits are too many parts' is something I really agree with. Perhaps less so the amount of parts but where they cut models. So many sculpts have their torso and/or shoulders cut in two parts, making it very difficult to put them together without a noticeable gap. Or, take the Necromunda Enfrocers. They need to be cut loose from the sprue by the shoulders - is is close to impossible to make those shoulder pads smooth as a result.
I am not very good at painting and usually find it more of a hassle than fun. More than anything, when I actually try to do things like using varnish, weathering and especially highlighting, I find it often makes the models look worse. Thus, it kind of always bums me out and I am more and more just thinking I should pick a level of painting that I find looks okay, rather than look at how good everyone else is because, well, I don't want to spend most of my time paitning. I want to play. But I certainly do get disappointed when I fail trying new things which really hurst motivation. Not sure if anyone can relate to that.
The most insane thing to me about the (d)evolution of GW kits is that they somehow take more and more individual pieces to build, and yet there's less and less customization possible with the model and how its posed.
I enjoy the building process. I always build long before I paint. Time constraint will make anything enjoyable less so because you feel the crunch.
I ran into this complexity problem earlier this year building out U.S. airborne infantry from Warlord Games. The guys look great and have a lot of character, but I have to wonder the value once 60 to 80 of them are on the table (counting both sides). Their durability is also a concern.
But you're absolutely right. The wargaming hobby is project work. And like any project work, it will have a time-to-completion and possibly a deadline competing with all the other things in your life (like other wargaming projects 😀). We have to make realistic estimates and prioritize properly to minimize failure and avoid burn-out.
Have fun at Adepticon!
After have failed my past year goal, this 2024, I set my new (and much more realistic) goal in one vehicle or a five man squad per month, a success as long as we go, with a Red wolves Spartan a Star Phantom vindicator and a Wolfspear Redemptor this three months. Also avoiding army painting (due to lack of time to play) and aiming for more narrative and various minis. Thanks for the video!
"Do GW miniatures have too many pieces?" *Me, looking over at 1/35 Miniart T-55 with literally over 1000 pieces, including engine and interior.* "Nehh, GW ain't that bad yet."
Lol, me putting my first House Escher models together. "Why do you have to glue their hair to their heads!?"
Lol, like the necks for delaque
Or the Van Saar in general!
The Van Saar were...ridiculous. My nephew chose them, and I had to build them for him, as they were absolutely impossible for him.
@@oskar6661What made them ridiculous? I was thinking of choosing them as my gang.
@@SmashingSnow They're a minimum of 12 pieces each, plus the base, and need building in stages with time for glue to cure in my opinion. Makes them easier to convert than Goliaths, Orlocks or Corpse Grinders but putting a starting gang together became a chore and I usually enjoy building over painting.
My first redemptor was a huge pain in the ass to build. I build gunpla, I've built the RG Unicorn Gundam which is a highly detailed kit with lots of small pieces that only show because you can change it from normal mode to destroy mode. My first redemptor took me more than half of the amount of time to build my redemptor
I kinda think GW is cutting models so much to create illusion of value when you look at a "packed" sprue. Also note how much SPRUE is on each sprue, there are now totally unnecessary runners (the "sprue" part of sprues) between each part, even surrounding each and every Legion Imperialis infantry model, they could have fit twice as many per sprue if they wanted, nobody else uses that many runners. They're just wasting plastic to make it look like you got more than you did.
I got into this hobby during a 2022 9th edition escalation league. I chose Necrons and was pretty happy with the result I got.
Then I did a 10th edition launch league with Space Marines. I had bigger plans for them, but there were fewer models. I never truly "finished" them.
I'm currently wrapping up another escalation league. My Death Guard have a basic coat of paint, and some got an oil wash but again they are unfinished.
I'm about to start an AOS esc league. I'm just going to be putting 3 or 4 colors on them and calling them good enough.
I thought deadlines would help motivate me, but having to half-bake my paint schemes is demoralizing.
Love these videos, so please don’t see this as a «swing» at you, just an observation in general :)
Managing time, expectations and scope is probably the hardest thing in the world to do well, if one has too many interests ie many projects going at once.
A persons ability to determine complexity and scope of a project, and estimate/assign it the «correct» amount of time to complete (with «complete» being a fluid definition at best) falls entirely on the person doing the estimate. This is where experience come in, even though people with lots of experience keep underestimating time needed *all* the time (partially due to wishfull thinking).
The order of priority, decided *before* deciding on what projects one wants to do for oneself is always those projects that affect the most people, or that other people are dependent on, in this case the terrain and boards and videos and all that. And *then*, after finishing all that decide if the «optional»/personal project is doable.
Overestimating ones abilities and/or time, and underestimating the amount of work needed is always on the person doing the estimation and the work.
What I don’t understand about this hobby though is this push to always do things faster and spend as little time as possible pr. item, as if it is a race to spend ones money and get as little back as possible in terms of enjoyment from the money spent.
Yes, I do understand that some people like the painting better than building, some people like playing more than building and painting, and some people like building more than painting, but do enjoy playing, there are all sorts of variations on this - but hurrying through a step only to hurry on to doing that step again on another build, and complaining about it taking too long to get to the next project is what I don’t get.
It’s like watching a movie and enjoying it a lot, but at the same time whishing it would be shorter so one could watch *another* movie faster …
But I get it: wanting less complex models for «quick builds» and more time painting, totally get it, it’s a preference - I personally enjoy building things and constructing stuff, I am learning the painting part, it all takes time, but that’s what I’m paying for, something to spend time on that I enjoy doing, the longer it takes the more enjoyment I’m getting for my money spent, and I’m fine with that - and I do understand that when something is a job time is money, and time spent on something that doesn’t directly translate into content and cash (ie a longer build phase) is a «waste» of time.
But then it’s not a GW issue, not even partially, it’s a management issue - so you should probably write an angry letter to your head manager and complain about the project managers lack of estimation skills in this case ;)
Looking forward to the adepticon coverage, enjoy the weekend :)
Most of what you said I 100% agree with.
But here is where I think our paths might diverge.
There are people who do NOT like assembling models.
The longer it takes them to assemble each model the less time they have to do the parts of the hobby which they do enjoy.
So they hurry to get that step done on each of their models in order to maximize the time they want to spend on the parts they like or do not mind.
Example: A person really likes the actual playing of the game vs the assembling and/or painting of the models.
So that person will rush through assembly and painting so they can get models on the table to battle.
To them the battle (game play) is the most important aspect of the hobby, and assembly and painting are just aspects they do not enjoy that much.
In the Example above the person's hobby hours are best spent on the parts of the hobby they do enjoy while minimizing the parts of the hobby they do not enjoy (speeding through those steps).
It is not as much about the money as it is about where that persons hobby hours are used and spent and how to maximize on those hobby hours.
@@ericdavis4964 Oh I totally agree with you :) And in a perfect world GW would offer options: 3D-printed versions of complex models - no assembly required, simplified versions of complex sculpts with little assembly required and so forth :) But then you risk sitting on product stock of versions not selling or selling slow, or some complex models not being available in every version due to complexity, and there would then certainly be people complaining about *that* :)
Of all the options 3d-printed versions would probably be the most «doable» version, but that would open up a whole other box of problems, since selling 3d-model files for GW means people would quickly make those available to others. selling 3d models on demand (ie ordering printes models from services still means printer files must be made, and those *will* show up in «alternative» channels - but that’s a whole different discussion :)
So yeah, I agree with you, and the solution would be to offer options and everybody would be happy :) But it doesn’t change the fact that GW is not responsible for somebody choosing to try and build and paint an army in way too little time and failing :)
I'm relatively new to Games Workshop games and just finished the assembly of a Deathleaper... my god, so, so, many pieces! I never would have expected it to take as long as it did for me to assemble a single model.
Great video! I might have mentioned this before but going to mostly 1/72 scale miniatures saved the hobby for me. Since most of them are just one part they are quick to prep and the smaller size is easier for me to paint. I can get an army done and spend more time on what matters more to me, playing the game! :)
I think I am going to have to schedule my Chicago visit for work around Adepticon next year so I can actually attend for once.
I wonder if the hyper-detail level isn't the result of (as some others have commented) making it easier for Contrast Paints to do their thing, and also making the models more legally distinct from the 3D proxies out there. Personally, I don't mind if more pieces = more flexibility in posing the figures, but that often is not the case.
There are a lot of great 3D sculpts out there, but honestly, I don't like the 'feel' of the resin. Maybe it's because I'm used to the GW plastic (which we have to admit, has gotten quite good). If you don't share that sentiment, then don't buy GW figures, and the marketplace will shape their future decisions... :)
As someone who does some comissions on the side, I feel bad when I charge for the time I had spent building the models(Note: I always recomend my customers to build the models themselves to save money)! I totaly agree that while the new sculpts are awesome, the extra level of details just are’nt worth it, at least when comes to basic troops models. Love the video Adam, hope you have fun at adepticon!
As a gamer first: absolutely too much detail. No one, not my friends nor my opponents at the few tournaments I've been too, are looking that close at my models. Even some of the ones that people are impressed by (such as my British 8th Army) are people really looking that closely; they look awesome on the tabletop and that's all they really need to be.
When I look at a GW model and I see it has so much detail, I usually just feel exhausted and have minimal motivation to actually bother painting it. I can do it, sure, but it feels like a slog that I don't want to start.
Great video, very inspiring and I love that quote “you have to pick your battles, and sometimes, you have to pick your failures.”
Interesting and topical. So I just started delving into this hobby in January and I've been building exclusively gw kits. I had no concept of how long this all would take to get my Imp Guard army up and running. It follows the same trend too with every model. I get the body or hull built rather quickly then everything slows down when the detail work comes in. It's rather discouraging for new hobbyists that are really wanting to play. It's not to say I don't enjoy building and customizing models and all that but dammit I want to play. I hope you all have a blast at Adepticon! This is a really good video and I appreciate your perspective.
I too think that the new GW models have too many details. I also don't like that most of the models are in fact monopose. You only can build that gunner in that way and no other, except you are going to kitbash it. The older models had a lot more options to pose them and were much easier to build, in my opinion. A lot less parts that had to be cleaned up from mold lines etc. Yes they may have looked a bit clunky (I hope I wrote that correctly?) when you look closely, but on the table they looked fine.
The old Tac marine squad was always the most fun for me to build. Posing and customizing marines in unique ways feels far more rewarding than slapping together 10 monopose models, and then wondering why GW felt basic troops need so much extra detail.
The painting part seems faster with the overly detailed models because I can cheat and use base color primers, a speedy drybrush, and a wash to bust out a squad quickly. That said, for my Ultramarines specifically, it’s really frustrating finding places on the models for decals. I like to put campaign badges on my marines when they do something cool in a game or whatever, but either way all the little greeblies and bits all over them, there’s no flat surfaces on a lot of them for decals to fit.
I like your comment of just because a sculptor sculpted it that doesnt mean you have to paint it. I do like all the detail to be there when I really want to make a paintjob shine but its so freeing to not feel like I have address each and every minute element. After 30 years of being around this hobby do paint this way. I do what needs to be done to tabletop finish a model. And then afterwards I will ...or maybe never ...go back in to touch up details. To be honest unless its a focal point detail thing... I rarely go back.
Couldn't agree more, some of the heads for Necromunda (Escher and Enforcers are my recent experience) are 2 piece (and in some cases 3 if you count the ponytails). Why does the face and the head need to be separate, for the Escher it does allow you to mix hairstyles with faces but for the Enforcers they are all the same helmet!
Uncle A making think of things as an existential crisis. “You never have as much time as you think” great advice about hobbies. AND LIFE! I’M FREE NOW! Thanks!
Totally agree. I tried to get back into GW... wow four years ago, with a SoB army and man, each mini was like a jigsaw of parts. That project floundered after just a squad and an HQ.
I hadn't realised it before this video but it really explains why I struggle with getting boxes actually built and painted, GW really do split the newer models into far too many pieces, but for all the extra detail it just ends up causing even more work where the parts don't fully line up and there's that slight gap.
Agree. Had this same convo only just the other day. Well articulated. Great assessment of the GW state of play
The last miniature project that I completed was a squad of death korps of krieg from kill team. Then last week I started a battalion of british infantry of the AWI period from perry miniatures. The difference is mind-blowing: they are such a pleasure to clean, build and paint that I don't remember the last time that I had this much fun with miniatures.
The craziest for me was the Hardened Veteran's bionic arm having the fingers be a separate piece. Why!?
Yep, try newer Fireforge Games stuff, they're great. Victrix are pretty superb, with astonishing value. Some 60+ figures for $35, etc. Northstar's stuff is pretty solid, particularly the later Frostgrave kits, etc.
The most egregious "weird cut" I remember seeing is a push-fit Stormcast where one piece was the head, one foot and a thin slice of the back connecting one to the other!
Honestly, part of me has suspected that the complexity of the kits is to discourage conversions & kitbashing; I know that sounds like hyperbole, but I remember James Hewitt saying on The Painting Phase that kits are designed to make sure that you can't just kitbash that unit yourself from existing kits.
Going back to GW after Legion minis and even Crisis Protocol made me realise how onerous most GW kit assemblies have become, something that that I also transferred to the painting. It is not universal the new flesh-eaters are fantastic, mostly, but their aesthetic is pretty minimal. I have also found the deeper sprues GW uses seem to produce much more flash on minis than other companies' hard plastic
Someone once told me that the increasing complexity was in part to make it harder to recast or produce STL “knock-offs.” Whether that’s true or not, I am definitely in the camp of simplicity. By all means, sell me an upgrade sprue (ideally, make it an optional sprue in the box, but let’s be realistic!) but not every Guardsman, Orc or even Space Marine is a main character and needs to be festooned with bits and pieces. I liked that about the older generation boxes
I've watched a lot of "Grand Designs" and I picked up the same lessons from all those projects as well. Things will almost always cost more, take longer &/or diminish in quality; and you can generally only prioritise one of those factors. Since they were building their dream homes that usually ment blown budgets and more time dedicated to delivering the quality they hoped for. So maybe give yourself a wider margin of error in your initial estimates.
I didn’t expect to get such stellar life advice from a video titled “Did Games Workshop Make Me Fail?” but I am very happy I did!!
“You never have as much time as you think” and “you have to pick your battles, and sometimes you have to pick your failures” (or as I prefer: know when to make concessions) are life mottos to live by *especially* for people with the dreadful combo of perfectionism and ADHD 😂
Loved the video! An awesome unexpected gem 😁💎
I didn't PLAN for them to be mottos - but they did sort of come out that way. Thanks for watching!
I totally agree. I miss the old style marines that you could easily assembly line build and assemble a squad in less than an hour. One reason I loved the Heresy game. No sushi sliced 500 part marines.
Miniature companies dont take the modelling aspect into account when designing their models or their sprues. I build WW2 plane and armor models. The modelling aspect is night and day in comparison. The placement of the sprue gates on a scale model are usually in places where they wont be seen or where removal will be easier, miniature companies will put them somewhere stupid like hair or fur.
I think putting together the models is another aspect of the hobby not just painting and gaming. I quite enjoy it in fact. The modular nature of the minis makes it easy to kitbash your own with minimal effort. Something GW seems to encourage given all the "extras" on the sprues. Take the Inceptors for example. I don't like the snowshoe landing gear so I clipped it off. Easy as it was two separate pieces. Also not a big fan of the bolter shields but they can be left of if I want. I think more pieces gives you more options. Including pieces from other sets. Same as painting, you don't need to build like it's shown on the box.
I think it is good to have quality, high-detailled models. But sometimes, I just want/need a lot of fodder which makes me nostalgic for the good old one-print sideways models. Just a single, solid "meeple" which will enforce your will in regiments of 40 on the table.
I've been painting a "bunch" of resin models recently that I've picked up. I decided to paint some Warhammer models because they look cool. After spending 2 1/2 hours assembling the first five infantryman from the Solar Auxilia boxed set, with 11 pieces each plus base, I fully understand this. I then assembled the six models in the Saviours of Cinderfall Callis and Toll box, all push fit, in about an hour. There's a lot of variance in Warhammer models. I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to make an army!
I say this as someone who enjoys collecting, building and painting miniatures more so than actually playing games with them. GW has been "oversculpting" many of its miniatures for years now. Just because you can stick additional detail onto a a miniature doesn't mean you should. Most of us have a limited amount of time in which to build and paint these models. And for the people who frequently use their models in games, they need robust models that can withstand the rigors of frequently travel and handling. Most often, that generally means more simple, compact miniatures with less pieces and protruding bits. I'm convinced the GW desing team unfortunately doesn't really care about any of these concerns.
Just finished building a box of Bretonnian knights on foot ... Their heads were split into multiple parts! Totally agree, the models are too complex and over detailed
Bought some Warhammer Fantasy High Elves recently. These are old models, but each is, at most, three pieces. The finished product looks fine. I completely agree with your thoughts. Even older Eldar Farseers, with flowing cloaks, are about three pieces. Something can be said about bringing in simplicity. Great video!
I'm painting corsair voidscarred these days. They have perfectly modeled butts that make people cross the border despite the fact that none of them are visible once assembled