Regarding farmers removing belt pulleys when not in use, many tractors' pulleys were driven off the shaft between the clutch and transmission and couldn't be disengaged, like the F12 and WC Allis. The extra weight of the rotating pulley would make shifting gears harder as they would have to wait until the pulley stopped spinning. Without the pulley it would slow down much quicker.
I'm not certain on the unstyled WC, but my styled WC has a tapered bolt that locks the belt pulley gear in mesh when in use, and when not using it you loosen the bolt and slide the pulley shaft assembly out just far enough to disengage the gears and tighten it up again. That way it only spins when you are ready for belt work and you don't have to completely remove the pulley. The WD and WD45 worked the same way.
My Great Uncles were always arguing about flat belt pulleys. One had just turned a pine wood pulley body and glued a bit of tire tread on it, another had an old worn out paper pulley and he glued bull hide with the rough out and had the end scarfed and tacked in place, another layers of wood, and then the one vocal one who swore steel was the only pulley he would mount.... and he kept it fresh painted once a year so it wouldn't rust. It was one of those topics you did NOT bring up at family gatherings, or else. :P Brothers can be a contentious lot.
Hey Toby, I live in the next county over from Columbia, Tennessee. I'm about half an hour away from the place that makes and rebuilds those paper pulleys. I hope they can get yours in and get them back to you soon.
Fun to learn a bit about paper pulleys. Being a city kid - I never knew something like that existed. It's so informative watching your channel. Professor Squatch and the PhD class at Farmall college! Love it!
My grandfather had an iron pulley on his 1952 Super A that replaced a Cub that was inadequate for his needs. He used it to run a field corn huller and grinder for making feed for his poultry flocks. On his 10 acres he would grow about 2 1/2 acres of oats, and 2 1/2 acres of field corn on the “back 5” and this was the bulk of his poultry feed, supplemented with alfalfa pellets. He would contract the oat harvest combine operation, and auger it up into storage bunkers over the garage to gravity feed for use. On the “front 5” he would have serial plantings of sweet corn, and fresh garden vegetables for roadside sales and personal use.
We ran a bearcat 2 a hammer mill 24 inch six belt pulley driven by pto down to a four inch ,but when we got the 1070 case dad re- belted it with a six inch driven pulley , to run it on 1000 rpm shaft
I don't know if paper pulleys is anywhere near you but I probably a lot of your audience would love to see that rebuilding process. Thank you for your material.
Likely exactly how they balance large squirrel cage fans today (still). Shaft through the middle, which then rests on two supports with two cast iron wheels per side, which both support and allow the shaft to rotate. They're sharp ones, with high quality bearings, so the contact is minimal and the friction very low. As the weight would make the pulley settle on one side, they'd likely drill a hole though the paper, put plugs as required (on the other side) and trim them until the pulley would be balanced and not spin in any direction, then they'd put the nails in in, which are many and even, so the imbalance they'd create would be minimal. It would explain why they'd settle for something as small as a piece of wood. The system is quite sensitive. It's basically no different than the setup you'd see in a machinist's shop. Tho machinists have one step above, which is the rail balancer. Two sharp blades, which get leveled on a granite slab, which then allow you to put a shaft on top and balance it. Nowadays, they likely have an automated unit, akin to a tire balancer. No point in fiddling about when a computer can tell you with pin point accuracy, exactly where and how much weight to put on.
@@aserta I think they may have used the wooden plugs with a bit of glue to fix the steel and lead weights in place. I've worked on helicopter rotors that have integral weight pockets with screw caps that work in a similar way. On one Huey rotor blade pocket it was so out of balance they emptied the entire pocket to 'start over'. Half the scrap metal in it was Viet Cong spent bullets from Nam.
I never knew paper pulleys until you showed one in another episode. When I came to use tractors in the early '70s there was one Deutz D30 (F2L514), built '51, with a steel pulley that was used from time to time to drive a large circular saw. It also had a underfloor drive for a sickle bar mower that was widely used and a PTO. A later model of the D30 from '59 (F2L514 as well) that already had a hydraulic lift still had a steel pulley, but was not used for anything. Another model from '59, a D40 (F3L712), that looked like a enlarged version of the '59 D30 no longer had a pulley at all. This machine was only used for implements driven by PTO. Maybe this is a peculiarity of german tractors - as the use of accelerator pedals is.
13:16 i'd say pretty effective. I'd say that when not in use, that type of prevention would keep the bearings well out of weight damage, which is a thing. At the far, far end, museum ships like the New Jersey have issues with their prop shafts, because the props would not be in movement and they'd damage seals and compress bearing materials with their weight causing water ingress. Now, of course this is a much smaller bearing, pulley, and shaft, but to some extent, it's true that it would move. A simple way to prove one way or another would be to stick a dial test indicator on the casement that holds the bearing (so that it doesn't get skewed data) and measure the up and down movement static, and then in movement. If there's a significant amount of movement as it moves, well, we know that will eventually damage the pulley. Compression damage. Move a metal up and down enough times, pressing it against another and it will deform. I've replaced my fair share of static shafts that had worn their emplacement holes over the years. That's how dowel pins fall out of engine blocks and destroy thousands of dollars worth of engine. :)
Well I guess you can clean up and paint the 2 paper pulley hubs you have when the weather decides to cooperate We did get some rain early monday morning with another chance this PM glad to see it
We had a McCormack/Deering O4. We used the belt pully to run a hammer mill and wood saw. My granddad would always melt some rubber (from an old inner tube) and let it run on the pully to keep the slip down. It worked great.
Excellent video. Personally I have never been concerned with weight hanging over like that. Think about the old steam engine and huge gas tractors from a 100 years ago they have flywheels and pulleys that weigh nearly a thousand pounds and like a 2 cylinder John Deere tractors some of there flywheels are over 200 pounds. The paper pulleys definitely offers way more traction but could be difficult to balance when it gets wet. Keep up the great videos
My dad use to talk about the old timers talking about the ford V8 when it first came out, they said that engine would be problematic because the cylinders would wear egg shaped on account of the slant of cylinder placement unlike a straight engine that was straight up and down.
I put 86 hp to a prony brake with a 9 3/4" paper pulley on my Super M. This is the first I've ever seen of the internal construction of a paper pulley and leads me to think that is way too much. I didn't know half of it is basically held together with wood dowels and nails. Think I'll just take it off and store it away. I'll get a 13" steel one if I ever do that again.
got termites? nope, just a curious Squatch! The vibrational stationary bearing wear prevention idea sounds like it's potentially plausible yet likely advice born in a bar over a few drinks. There is probably a specific event that was partially attributed to the weight and vibration and it became a blanket solution to a problem that doesn't regularly exist. I'm thinking a primitive wooden or poured, or brass split bearing design that was not adjusted or lubricated properly set up the situation for the vibrational failure and those details were omitted in the spread of the anecdote. We know that lack of maintenance makes small problems large quickly, plus dirt intrusion ruins everything. Most tractors past 1930 will have ball or tapered roller bearings throughout the drivetrain, save for rod&mains.
I liked the Oliver pullies with cross groove venting kept air velocity from lifting belt off the pulley. On my MMUs you had to wait for the belt pulley to stop spinning before you could shift.
Excellent video Toby :) also surprised me on 1950 Cockshutt 40 farm tractor had belt pulley in super condition for age the tractor was it paper type one too ! Also tractor in cold elements toi lots I remember on home farm and rent ones my uncle also dad had 1970 to 1995!
The steel pulleys are real nice looking when painted up, but the paper pulleys give that "vintage" look. They also help break up all the red, in my opinion. Great video showing the little nuances. I've also been told I should remove my pulley when not in use. The H sees limited use, so I'm not worried about it either.
Actually, surface friction (either static or kinetic) is only dictated by the surface coefficient of the grab, Greek letter mu and the normal force, or force directed to the axis of rotation in this case. Contact area does NOT matter, or, more accurately, it gets cancelled out. Make it wider or bigger circumference and the given force applies a lower PSI acting on mu. What about angle of wrap? That just helps increase the axial force is all. Typically, mu is between 0.001 (wet ice) to >1.00 (hot dragster tires on hot pavement). I'll bet mu for paper on a leather flat belt is around 0.4. The normal force is whatever the belt can stand to apply through tension.
Thank you for sharing. Very interesting to learn about the different pulley sizes. I follow your channel and am rebuilding a Farmal H using the same process you are. It’s actually my first nut and bolt restoration so I’m watching your channel to learn how to do everything. I just sent off the paper pulley hub to Paper Pulleys for the Farmall H I am currently restoring. When I called him last week, he told me to send it on and they would get to it as soon as possible. I touched base with him two days after they got it, and they already started sandblasting it. So hopefully he would be able to go ahead and do yours. It’s my first paper pulley ever having restored so I can’t wait to see what it looks like.
Hey squatch,,,,don't apologize for the way you go to another project, in the shop,,,,,,,i enjoy seeing them in any order,,i'm sure you'll find most of us squatchers feel the same way,,,,,forge on,,,,,😍 and stay safe,,say hello to senior for me,,
Hi Squatch, thanks again for an interesting view into a mechanical mystery, I appreciate the efforts and that these productions take. Even though paper pullies are a new concept for me I can appreciate their place in the industry of mechanical drive products. I'm amazed at the sources for spares and rebuilds that are available to you in the US and the amount of new / old stock which is still around. Purchases made by Senior and you at the recent swap meet sparked my interest, I've not seen anything like that here in Australia. Colin
Excellent video 👌i knew about paper pulleys and always wondered how on earth they were made 🤔 lo and behold the Squatch university of engineering once again comes out with the answer 👍👍
I am thinking they balanced the pulley during the assembly process by putting it on a cone similar to a lawn mower blade and as they added parts they adjusted the weights or else it would take hours to build it and take it apart and put back together
An interesting episode. Coming from a non-farming upbringing, paper seems like an unusual choice for a pulley that likely is going to live in the outdoors, or at least be exposed to weather often. You'd think they would have figured out something more durable, like maybe a steel pulley with a rubber 'tire' on it.
Toby, great informative video I can see from back in the day I'm sure the old timers were trying to protect their investment that they depended on to work like designed to work and by removing the pully and like the wedge under the flywheel was proper for back then. Always love your videos never miss one.
We removed the pulleys when we mounted the cultivator, or loader. We only used the pulleys for a hammer mill, and buzz saw ( Idiot saw.) I assumed the pulley size was about the speed of the machine operated. I do know that there was a massive paper pulley for use with the W9. Thanks.
I remember a old tractor on my grandfathers farm it had wooden pulley on it am 76 years old so talking about back when I was 9 or ten years old it was a steel wheel tractor think a Fordson
watching the disassembly it came to me that plywood could be built up the same as paper material? I even thought about a one piece wood turning, then drill the necessary holes to fit over the hub and allow the spoke supports. Time consuming but I think doable. Either way the initial "body"would be made oversize then turned to produce a crown.
Great grand dad had his starter motor flywheel while in operation chocked in place not with a wood wedge but a new Goodyear rubber heel that fit super snuggly under the crank and flywheel.
Just watched a fella make an Farmall H pulley identical to the one Toby tore down out of plywood and tight bond glue and long screws he knew how it was assembled to begin with and made his without the dowels and counter weights and with only one securing ring on the outside nothing on the back but a few shorter screws. Seems a bit Ridgid but I'd have used a steel one or sent in to have one made correctly.
@@maggs131I'd assumed the paper would be spun around a hub and drilled for the shafts afterwards, but watching Squatch take it apart yeah they were layered
@lastguy8613 my comment was in pure jest. Yes that's s billion layers of paper stacked. They are presumably stamped to fit the hub shafts and then spun on a lathe to get the finished shape which is slightly higher in the center to keep the belt from walking
@@maggs131 Hey thankyou for your reply and I appreciate the jest. It would suck to be the guy when the boss says 'we don't have a jig for this one, here's the scissors lol' Fascinating process all the same
Very interesting. Looks to me like the "paper" is perhaps 1/2" thick die cut out of something like celotex perhaps. FYI, the railroads experimented with "paper" wheels om both freight and passenger cars. Didn't work very well but some lasted a long time. They used a similar metal core.
Thanks Toby, you answered my question about my 8 bolt pulley - not correct for my '51 H, but it looks fine and I'll keep it. Just a note - my H is outside a lot and to prevent rot, etc. of the paper, I soaked it in old engine oil . Seems to work fine and I don't use it other than for looks anyway.
All those pulleys kicking about, you should consider getting something for them to drive, like an old thresher or a sawmill. Something else to restore and play with.
I have a good question for your next Q&A session: In your older diesel engines (excluding your Kubota) for example your D2s and your RD6 do you consider running a fuel lubricant in your fuel since modern diesel fuel doesn't have as many lubrication properties as the diesel fuel back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s had?
The pulley is only half of the equation. Would belt material affect pulley choice? Farmers could compensate for a lower traction pulley with a higher traction belt, assuming that was available. Or the choice of pulley might have had something to do with the difference between leather and rubber belts. As for cleaning flash rust off a steel pulley, wouldn't the belt do that in short order? A running belt would make a fairly effective strop if you let it run loose for a bit before putting it to work. I use sections of leather mill belting as strops and burnishers.
I disagfee about the superior traction of the paper pulley . My grandfather used two different men to fill his silos one man had an m diesel the a bjg case sbout the size of amoose it had a steel pulley the farmall paper I rememger a lot of pullmore belt dresing on the M and none or very littlie on case. thankyou
It’s sitting right where we left it out on the field property where it will live - just have to get all the buildings put up out there first before it’ll be possible to do much with the crusher though 👍
I have always wondered about putting wood on in place of the paper and using the pto itself to turn it down like a lathe. Seems like it would work atleast for a collector tractor if not for a work tractor.
Ensuring a quality enough chunk of wood without joints or flaws would be paramount for it to hold up to the centrifugal force involved. Many old mill pulleys were made out of wood, but they were all slow turning.
Interesting that the pulley supplier could go out of business while supplying IH ,you’d think the large demand would have been good for them , maybe there was more to the story.
Yeah I don’t know the full story, but if they were like anything like Minneapolis-Moline was in the 1950’s, poor management can run even a good company into the ground if you give them enough time.
I'm guessing the pulley shaft runs in dual bearings? and if the pulley is balanced, having it rotating 24/7 shouldn't be an issue. If it became un-balanced on the other hand and you hung a damn great heavy belt on it to do work then you'd generate some serious out of spec forces on the outer bearing that wouldn't be good for a long life! I wonder who came up with using paper as opposed to say, leather or rubber, both equally good for traction and weather resistance?
If you wanted to learn another lost art, you might be able to arrange a visit to paper pully inc. and gather the knowledge and materials to build your own.
What type of wood was used for the dowels in the paper hubs? It kind of looks a little like hickory which was used for golf club shafts until the early 1930s.
I can understand the use of steel drive pulleys. But paper seems to me to be a poor choice of material. With its susceptibility to damage from weather (sun and water) and I assume insect damage it seems other materials wold have been a better choice. A good hardwood turning has to be better than laminated paper. And good old rubber would seem to be the best choice. Rubber could be either solid or built up with lamination the same as the paper. Was it a production cost issue? I'm not a tractor guy so just guessing here. Thanks for the info, ---M---
Good questions - Senior actually built a custom drive pulley for his old sawmill out of laminated rubber, and found that it wore out rather quickly compared to the paper laminated ones. Granted, there are many different types of rubber so that may have had something to do with it too. They also made paper pulleys in excess of 6' in diameter, I've seen them first-hand on very old power generator displays at a few of the tractor shows that I attend, and I'm assuming that paper was the best option for unlimited size. Solid wood could be OK is it doesn't have any flaws in the grain, but you'd be limited on maximum pulley size unless you could find a way to create joints that would hold together.
Just curious as to why you didn't remove the nails first? Seems logical that removing the nails would facilitate rod and paper removal. If you have time, please explain. Thanks for sharing.
I call BS on the pulley weight causing bearing issues claims. Those bearings are bigger than many multi-ton vehicles and flatbed trailers run on. Also back in the day when in use those things had to stand up to 50+ foot belts pulled as tight as traction allowed in many applications and not have issues with being that way for long periods of time.
You could actually get a belt pulley option from Deere into the 20 series New Generation tractors, I remember seeing it in an operator's manual for my parent's 3020. On those, the pulley bolted up to the PTO like on the Caterpillar tractors..........
My neighbor has a D 2 he wants to sell. He said last time he used it when it goes forward it locks up but works fine in reverse. What would be a good price for it? He says the pony and diesel motors are supposed to work. Bit I haven't looked at it as of yet.
The locking up going forward but reverse being fine sounds like there’s a bearing that’s completely failed somewhere in the driveline, whether it be the bevel gear pinion or one of the final drive upper bull pinions. Until that problem was sorted out, I wouldn’t pay much money for it at all since repairs of that nature are usually difficult and expensive. If I were buying it, I’d be looking at it like it was a parts machine, with value mainly tied to how good of shape the undercarriage is in.
For the sake of the algorithm , I would think eventually it would wear smooth anyways , depending on on the usage just think of all the pedals on tractors squatch253 has shown that were smooth and the knurl/tread made into them a lot beefy’er than any they’d put on a pulley ! But just reckless speculation on my part 🤷♂️
Unfortunately, anything outside of a smooth surface will quickly wear a woven belt. Even a rusty pulley surface will start breaking down the fibers in the belt weave.
It all depends on what they are for - these common IH ones sell for about $40-$60 if in good shape - but a genuine Caterpillar one in good condition can sell for a few hundred $$$, because they’re quite rare. Like with anything else, it all depends on brand and condition 👍
Enough to exceed the given tractor's power rating, typically. In some higher HP applications (steam or diesel in excess of 100 hp) then it became a lot easier to start slipping the belt, and proper tension was paramount because of the dangers that came along with a tightly strung belt under massive tension that could suddenly let go or run off of a pulley, causing a violent whip action to occur.
I'm going on 80 years, I can remember some not all of what, of what, you speak😢😢, IT IS GREAT SADNESS I REALISE I WAS PERHAPS BORN IN THE WRONG CENTURY!!!!!!!SHIT HAPPENS
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Regarding farmers removing belt pulleys when not in use, many tractors' pulleys were driven off the shaft between the clutch and transmission and couldn't be disengaged, like the F12 and WC Allis. The extra weight of the rotating pulley would make shifting gears harder as they would have to wait until the pulley stopped spinning. Without the pulley it would slow down much quicker.
I'm not certain on the unstyled WC, but my styled WC has a tapered bolt that locks the belt pulley gear in mesh when in use, and when not using it you loosen the bolt and slide the pulley shaft assembly out just far enough to disengage the gears and tighten it up again. That way it only spins when you are ready for belt work and you don't have to completely remove the pulley. The WD and WD45 worked the same way.
also clearance issues for mounted cultivators, loaders, and other implements.
@@dylanbywater9955,, same here on my brother's WC. .....
My Great Uncles were always arguing about flat belt pulleys. One had just turned a pine wood pulley body and glued a bit of tire tread on it, another had an old worn out paper pulley and he glued bull hide with the rough out and had the end scarfed and tacked in place, another layers of wood, and then the one vocal one who swore steel was the only pulley he would mount.... and he kept it fresh painted once a year so it wouldn't rust. It was one of those topics you did NOT bring up at family gatherings, or else. :P Brothers can be a contentious lot.
Mr Tire Tread was a forward thinker
Hey Toby, I live in the next county over from Columbia, Tennessee. I'm about half an hour away from the place that makes and rebuilds those paper pulleys. I hope they can get yours in and get them back to you soon.
Fun to learn a bit about paper pulleys. Being a city kid - I never knew something like that existed. It's so informative watching your channel. Professor Squatch and the PhD class at Farmall college! Love it!
I'm impressed by the complexity and skill required to make the hub casting.
It might be short, but I enjoyed the lesson in history.
My grandfather had an iron pulley on his 1952 Super A that replaced a Cub that was inadequate for his needs. He used it to run a field corn huller and grinder for making feed for his poultry flocks. On his 10 acres he would grow about 2 1/2 acres of oats, and 2 1/2 acres of field corn on the “back 5” and this was the bulk of his poultry feed, supplemented with alfalfa pellets. He would contract the oat harvest combine operation, and auger it up into storage bunkers over the garage to gravity feed for use. On the “front 5” he would have serial plantings of sweet corn, and fresh garden vegetables for roadside sales and personal use.
We ran a bearcat 2 a hammer mill 24 inch six belt pulley driven by pto down to a four inch ,but when we got the 1070 case dad re- belted it with a six inch driven pulley , to run it on 1000 rpm shaft
I don't know if paper pulleys is anywhere near you but I probably a lot of your audience would love to see that rebuilding process. Thank you for your material.
They’re down in Tennessee I believe, so only about 5 states away lol 👍
I’ve been around those paper pulleys as a kid and always thought it was some kind of wood in there. Learned from these videos that it’s paper!
It would be neat to see how they balanced them.
Likely exactly how they balance large squirrel cage fans today (still). Shaft through the middle, which then rests on two supports with two cast iron wheels per side, which both support and allow the shaft to rotate. They're sharp ones, with high quality bearings, so the contact is minimal and the friction very low. As the weight would make the pulley settle on one side, they'd likely drill a hole though the paper, put plugs as required (on the other side) and trim them until the pulley would be balanced and not spin in any direction, then they'd put the nails in in, which are many and even, so the imbalance they'd create would be minimal. It would explain why they'd settle for something as small as a piece of wood. The system is quite sensitive. It's basically no different than the setup you'd see in a machinist's shop. Tho machinists have one step above, which is the rail balancer. Two sharp blades, which get leveled on a granite slab, which then allow you to put a shaft on top and balance it.
Nowadays, they likely have an automated unit, akin to a tire balancer. No point in fiddling about when a computer can tell you with pin point accuracy, exactly where and how much weight to put on.
@@aserta I think they may have used the wooden plugs with a bit of glue to fix the steel and lead weights in place. I've worked on helicopter rotors that have integral weight pockets with screw caps that work in a similar way. On one Huey rotor blade pocket it was so out of balance they emptied the entire pocket to 'start over'. Half the scrap metal in it was Viet Cong spent bullets from Nam.
I have read that Paper Pulleys Inc recommends using 30w oil on their refurbished pulleys. Thanks for the video!
Great in depth explanation of the paper and steel pulleys. Thanks for the video Toby!
Has any tractor company ever make wood laminated pulley, i remeber seeing a wood laminated pulley some where once
I never knew paper pulleys until you showed one in another episode. When I came to use tractors in the early '70s there was one Deutz D30 (F2L514), built '51, with a steel pulley that was used from time to time to drive a large circular saw. It also had a underfloor drive for a sickle bar mower that was widely used and a PTO. A later model of the D30 from '59 (F2L514 as well) that already had a hydraulic lift still had a steel pulley, but was not used for anything. Another model from '59, a D40 (F3L712), that looked like a enlarged version of the '59 D30 no longer had a pulley at all. This machine was only used for implements driven by PTO. Maybe this is a peculiarity of german tractors - as the use of accelerator pedals is.
Always interesting to watch and learn about the history / engineering back in the day !! Tks Toby CHEERS
I just watched another person on RUclips rebuilt his paper pulley with plywood discs then tried it with a sanding disc on a side grinder
13:16 i'd say pretty effective. I'd say that when not in use, that type of prevention would keep the bearings well out of weight damage, which is a thing. At the far, far end, museum ships like the New Jersey have issues with their prop shafts, because the props would not be in movement and they'd damage seals and compress bearing materials with their weight causing water ingress. Now, of course this is a much smaller bearing, pulley, and shaft, but to some extent, it's true that it would move. A simple way to prove one way or another would be to stick a dial test indicator on the casement that holds the bearing (so that it doesn't get skewed data) and measure the up and down movement static, and then in movement. If there's a significant amount of movement as it moves, well, we know that will eventually damage the pulley. Compression damage. Move a metal up and down enough times, pressing it against another and it will deform. I've replaced my fair share of static shafts that had worn their emplacement holes over the years. That's how dowel pins fall out of engine blocks and destroy thousands of dollars worth of engine. :)
Old family friend said they used to put treacle on steel pulleys to improve traction on the belt, also acted as a good wasp trap
Well I guess you can clean up and paint the 2 paper pulley hubs you have when the weather decides to cooperate We did get some rain early monday morning with another chance this PM glad to see it
We had a McCormack/Deering O4. We used the belt pully to run a hammer mill and wood saw. My granddad would always melt some rubber (from an old inner tube) and let it run on the pully to keep the slip down. It worked great.
I completely saturate these with boiling linseed oil.They turn a beautiful patina and if you retreat them once a season they become hard as steel.
Excellent video. Personally I have never been concerned with weight hanging over like that. Think about the old steam engine and huge gas tractors from a 100 years ago they have flywheels and pulleys that weigh nearly a thousand pounds and like a 2 cylinder John Deere tractors some of there flywheels are over 200 pounds. The paper pulleys definitely offers way more traction but could be difficult to balance when it gets wet. Keep up the great videos
My dad would roll normal nitto insulating tape onto the pulley , it worked
My dad use to talk about the old timers talking about the ford V8 when it first came out, they said that engine would be problematic because the cylinders would wear egg shaped on account of the slant of cylinder placement unlike a straight engine that was straight up and down.
I just watched a man build a pully out of plywood rings glued together and sanded round on the tractor as it turned . @ Tractor Rescue Ranch
I learned something today, I always thought they were mad out of leather.
I put 86 hp to a prony brake with a 9 3/4" paper pulley on my Super M. This is the first I've ever seen of the internal construction of a paper pulley and leads me to think that is way too much. I didn't know half of it is basically held together with wood dowels and nails. Think I'll just take it off and store it away. I'll get a 13" steel one if I ever do that again.
I feel like we need to watch you build one of these pulleys!
got termites? nope, just a curious Squatch! The vibrational stationary bearing wear prevention idea sounds like it's potentially plausible yet likely advice born in a bar over a few drinks. There is probably a specific event that was partially attributed to the weight and vibration and it became a blanket solution to a problem that doesn't regularly exist. I'm thinking a primitive wooden or poured, or brass split bearing design that was not adjusted or lubricated properly set up the situation for the vibrational failure and those details were omitted in the spread of the anecdote. We know that lack of maintenance makes small problems large quickly, plus dirt intrusion ruins everything. Most tractors past 1930 will have ball or tapered roller bearings throughout the drivetrain, save for rod&mains.
I liked the Oliver pullies with cross groove venting kept air velocity from lifting belt off the pulley. On my MMUs you had to wait for the belt pulley to stop spinning before you could shift.
Excellent video Toby :) also surprised me on 1950 Cockshutt 40 farm tractor had belt pulley in super condition for age the tractor was it paper type one too ! Also tractor in cold elements toi lots I remember on home farm and rent ones my uncle also dad had 1970 to 1995!
The steel pulleys are real nice looking when painted up, but the paper pulleys give that "vintage" look. They also help break up all the red, in my opinion.
Great video showing the little nuances. I've also been told I should remove my pulley when not in use. The H sees limited use, so I'm not worried about it either.
Actually, surface friction (either static or kinetic) is only dictated by the surface coefficient of the grab, Greek letter mu and the normal force, or force directed to the axis of rotation in this case. Contact area does NOT matter, or, more accurately, it gets cancelled out. Make it wider or bigger circumference and the given force applies a lower PSI acting on mu. What about angle of wrap? That just helps increase the axial force is all. Typically, mu is between 0.001 (wet ice) to >1.00 (hot dragster tires on hot pavement). I'll bet mu for paper on a leather flat belt is around 0.4. The normal force is whatever the belt can stand to apply through tension.
I remember my dad using a pulley which bolted on around the pto of our 574 for cutting firewood and grinding barley for stock.
Thank you for sharing. Very interesting to learn about the different pulley sizes. I follow your channel and am rebuilding a Farmal H using the same process you are. It’s actually my first nut and bolt restoration so I’m watching your channel to learn how to do everything. I just sent off the paper pulley hub to Paper Pulleys for the Farmall H I am currently restoring. When I called him last week, he told me to send it on and they would get to it as soon as possible. I touched base with him two days after they got it, and they already started sandblasting it. So hopefully he would be able to go ahead and do yours. It’s my first paper pulley ever having restored so I can’t wait to see what it looks like.
Thanks for the info on PaperPulleys, I think I’m going to give them a call and get things rolling 👍
Good episode. Two questions:
1. Do the steel endcaps get reused or replaced?
2. Which pulley is going to turn the rock crusher? 😎
They put new end caps on the repapered pulleys. And whichever pulley is on the RD-6 or D-2 is most likely crushing it lol 😂👍
I’m Looking forward to the rd6 narrow restoration. I’ll still be here when it happens
Hey squatch,,,,don't apologize for the way you go to another project, in the shop,,,,,,,i enjoy seeing them in any order,,i'm sure you'll find most of us squatchers feel the same way,,,,,forge on,,,,,😍 and stay safe,,say hello to senior for me,,
Hi Squatch, thanks again for an interesting view into a mechanical mystery, I appreciate the efforts and that these productions take. Even though paper pullies are a new concept for me I can appreciate their place in the industry of mechanical drive products. I'm amazed at the sources for spares and rebuilds that are available to you in the US and the amount of new / old stock which is still around. Purchases made by Senior and you at the recent swap meet sparked my interest, I've not seen anything like that here in Australia. Colin
Excellent video 👌i knew about paper pulleys and always wondered how on earth they were made 🤔 lo and behold the Squatch university of engineering once again comes out with the answer 👍👍
We always took the pulley off of our Farmall “M”’s after harvest seasons finished.
I am thinking they balanced the pulley during the assembly process by putting it on a cone similar to a lawn mower blade and as they added parts they adjusted the weights or else it would take hours to build it and take it apart and put back together
8:52 for when the balance plug falls. It's right between those two wooden dowels.
Ah good catch - I didn’t notice that when I was working on it 👍
An interesting episode. Coming from a non-farming upbringing, paper seems like an unusual choice for a pulley that likely is going to live in the outdoors, or at least be exposed to weather often. You'd think they would have figured out something more durable, like maybe a steel pulley with a rubber 'tire' on it.
Toby, great informative video I can see from back in the day I'm sure the old timers were trying to protect their investment that they depended on to work like designed to work and by removing the pully and like the wedge under the flywheel was proper for back then. Always love your videos never miss one.
We removed the pulleys when we mounted the cultivator, or loader.
We only used the pulleys for a hammer mill, and buzz saw ( Idiot saw.)
I assumed the pulley size was about the speed of the machine operated.
I do know that there was a massive paper pulley for use with the W9.
Thanks.
I remember a old tractor on my grandfathers farm it had wooden pulley on it am 76 years old so talking about back when I was 9 or ten years old it was a steel wheel tractor think a Fordson
watching the disassembly it came to me that plywood could be built up the same as paper material? I even thought about a one piece wood turning, then drill the necessary holes to fit over the hub and allow the spoke supports. Time consuming but I think doable. Either way the initial "body"would be made oversize then turned to produce a crown.
Great grand dad had his starter motor flywheel while in operation chocked in place not with a wood wedge but a new Goodyear rubber heel that fit super snuggly under the crank and flywheel.
Just watched a fella make an Farmall H pulley identical to the one Toby tore down out of plywood and tight bond glue and long screws he knew how it was assembled to begin with and made his without the dowels and counter weights and with only one securing ring on the outside nothing on the back but a few shorter screws. Seems a bit Ridgid but I'd have used a steel one or sent in to have one made correctly.
It would be interesting to see a paper pulley being made !
Probably takes a guy a while sitting there with scissors cutting out the same pattern 9000 times 😴
@@maggs131I'd assumed the paper would be spun around a hub and drilled for the shafts afterwards, but watching Squatch take it apart yeah they were layered
@lastguy8613 my comment was in pure jest. Yes that's s billion layers of paper stacked. They are presumably stamped to fit the hub shafts and then spun on a lathe to get the finished shape which is slightly higher in the center to keep the belt from walking
@@maggs131 Hey thankyou for your reply and I appreciate the jest. It would suck to be the guy when the boss says 'we don't have a jig for this one, here's the scissors lol'
Fascinating process all the same
I wonder how many layers of paper there were? Great episode!
Very interesting. Looks to me like the "paper" is perhaps 1/2" thick die cut out of something like celotex perhaps. FYI, the railroads experimented with "paper" wheels om both freight and passenger cars. Didn't work very well but some lasted a long time. They used a similar metal core.
The 1113 is an awesome looking tractor. Was also an awesome build. I'll binge watch that series every now and then. Looking forward to the cab on it.
Thanks Toby, you answered my question about my 8 bolt pulley - not correct for my '51 H, but it looks fine and I'll keep it. Just a note - my H is outside a lot and to prevent rot, etc. of the paper, I soaked it in old engine oil . Seems to work fine and I don't use it other than for looks anyway.
Very informative. I always learn something when I come here. Thanks.
Thanks good to know
McMaster Carr has paper pulley rebuild kits.
All those pulleys kicking about, you should consider getting something for them to drive, like an old thresher or a sawmill. Something else to restore and play with.
Senior has 3 sawmills and 5 planers, all belt driven. We just don’t do much with them anymore though.
Thanks for the video Toby! Nice to the hub was in good shape. Cheers
I have a good question for your next Q&A session: In your older diesel engines (excluding your Kubota) for example your D2s and your RD6 do you consider running a fuel lubricant in your fuel since modern diesel fuel doesn't have as many lubrication properties as the diesel fuel back in the 30s, 40s, and 50s had?
Yes, I run fuel system lubricity additive in every diesel I own 👍
Very good job and informative for something I have actually been wondering about myself.
Very educational video !
That was very interesting
It would be quite interesting to see how a paper pulley is made. After all paper is the last materiel to associate with a tractor.
There were railroad paper wheels too, used on luxury cars to increase confort.
I wonder how many H's and W-4's had steel pulleys retrofitted.
The pulley is only half of the equation. Would belt material affect pulley choice? Farmers could compensate for a lower traction pulley with a higher traction belt, assuming that was available. Or the choice of pulley might have had something to do with the difference between leather and rubber belts. As for cleaning flash rust off a steel pulley, wouldn't the belt do that in short order? A running belt would make a fairly effective strop if you let it run loose for a bit before putting it to work. I use sections of leather mill belting as strops and burnishers.
I disagfee about the superior traction of the paper pulley . My grandfather used two different men to fill his silos one man had an m diesel the a bjg case sbout the size of amoose it had a steel pulley the farmall paper I rememger a lot of pullmore belt dresing on the M and none or very littlie on case. thankyou
Interesting just like the other one you did on one. I do think that the large one you got at the swap meet would look good on the W4
Could you do a video about rebuilding paper pully
Squatch How many paper layers go into make up one of the belt pulley ? 👍🏴
Nice...!!! BTW... Whatever happened to the rock crusher..??
It’s sitting right where we left it out on the field property where it will live - just have to get all the buildings put up out there first before it’ll be possible to do much with the crusher though 👍
Really interesting and informative episode 👍
Thanks, Squatch
I have always wondered about putting wood on in place of the paper and using the pto itself to turn it down like a lathe. Seems like it would work atleast for a collector tractor if not for a work tractor.
Technically paper is wood ☝️
Ensuring a quality enough chunk of wood without joints or flaws would be paramount for it to hold up to the centrifugal force involved. Many old mill pulleys were made out of wood, but they were all slow turning.
Interesting that the pulley supplier could go out of business while supplying IH ,you’d think the large demand would have been good for them , maybe there was more to the story.
Yeah I don’t know the full story, but if they were like anything like Minneapolis-Moline was in the 1950’s, poor management can run even a good company into the ground if you give them enough time.
Thought you shy from politics 🤷♂️🤦♂️😆😆😆
how did they balance the pulley? did they fully assemble, then measure , then take it apart and add weights and reassemble?
I don’t know, but have always wondered the same.
I'm guessing the pulley shaft runs in dual bearings? and if the pulley is balanced, having it rotating 24/7 shouldn't be an issue. If it became un-balanced on the other hand and you hung a damn great heavy belt on it to do work then you'd generate some serious out of spec forces on the outer bearing that wouldn't be good for a long life! I wonder who came up with using paper as opposed to say, leather or rubber, both equally good for traction and weather resistance?
Yes, the pulley output shaft is mounted on two ball bearings - one positioned at each end.
A sound theory to wedge the flywheel. Now I can’t imagine the belt pulleys spinning fast enough to need balancing. What are the RPMs ?
The Farmall H and W-4 pulleys spin at 1,100rpm, so they’re going pretty fast 👍
While wedging the flywheel will lift the weight off the rear bearing, would it not transfer weight to the front bearing?
If you wanted to learn another lost art, you might be able to arrange a visit to paper pully inc. and gather the knowledge and materials to build your own.
Good video
Is it a special kind of paper Tobie, or do they use up all the old telephone books
It’s definitely a special type of paper, seems to be rather dense like a type of fiber press-board material, just made in very thin layers.
Do you or anyone else know a place that makes old tractor parts like piston sleeves and piston rings?
What type of wood was used for the dowels in the paper hubs? It kind of looks a little like hickory which was used for golf club shafts until the early 1930s.
I don’t know what species the wooden dowels were made of.
I can understand the use of steel drive pulleys. But paper seems to me to be a poor choice of material. With its susceptibility to damage from weather (sun and water) and I assume insect damage it seems other materials wold have been a better choice. A good hardwood turning has to be better than laminated paper. And good old rubber would seem to be the best choice. Rubber could be either solid or built up with lamination the same as the paper. Was it a production cost issue? I'm not a tractor guy so just guessing here.
Thanks for the info,
---M---
Good questions - Senior actually built a custom drive pulley for his old sawmill out of laminated rubber, and found that it wore out rather quickly compared to the paper laminated ones. Granted, there are many different types of rubber so that may have had something to do with it too. They also made paper pulleys in excess of 6' in diameter, I've seen them first-hand on very old power generator displays at a few of the tractor shows that I attend, and I'm assuming that paper was the best option for unlimited size. Solid wood could be OK is it doesn't have any flaws in the grain, but you'd be limited on maximum pulley size unless you could find a way to create joints that would hold together.
Vai demorar pra colocar esse ai em funcionamento?
Just curious as to why you didn't remove the nails first?
Seems logical that removing the nails would facilitate rod and paper removal.
If you have time, please explain.
Thanks for sharing.
The nails were already falling-out loose, they didn’t hold up the process at all 👍
Thank you good info
Tufnol/Paxolin pulleys ?
I call BS on the pulley weight causing bearing issues claims. Those bearings are bigger than many multi-ton vehicles and flatbed trailers run on.
Also back in the day when in use those things had to stand up to 50+ foot belts pulled as tight as traction allowed in many applications and not have issues with being that way for long periods of time.
Was John Deere the last to still have a belt pulley because the hand clutch was housed in it?
Possibly, but I’d have to research that to be sure.
You could actually get a belt pulley option from Deere into the 20 series New Generation tractors, I remember seeing it in an operator's manual for my parent's 3020. On those, the pulley bolted up to the PTO like on the Caterpillar tractors..........
do you have a link to a place that can replace the paper on these?
PaperPulleys dot com 👍
I will have to look to see if there are YT videos of a paper pulley rebuild. Do you have any rebuilt ones that you can show?
Thanks for sharing!
I do not have any rebuilt examples yet.
@@squatch253 wasn’t 11113 redone? Please don’t inform me I’m suffering early onset from AL Zimers 🤦♂️🥹
Did they make them out of leather as well
Or maybe as an after market replacement
I’ve never actually seen any leather pulleys, but that’s not saying they never did it 👍
My neighbor has a D 2 he wants to sell. He said last time he used it when it goes forward it locks up but works fine in reverse. What would be a good price for it? He says the pony and diesel motors are supposed to work. Bit I haven't looked at it as of yet.
The locking up going forward but reverse being fine sounds like there’s a bearing that’s completely failed somewhere in the driveline, whether it be the bevel gear pinion or one of the final drive upper bull pinions. Until that problem was sorted out, I wouldn’t pay much money for it at all since repairs of that nature are usually difficult and expensive. If I were buying it, I’d be looking at it like it was a parts machine, with value mainly tied to how good of shape the undercarriage is in.
What if they put a very light knurl on the steel pulley to add some grip but not enough to tear up the belt
For the sake of the algorithm , I would think eventually it would wear smooth anyways , depending on on the usage just think of all the pedals on tractors squatch253 has shown that were smooth and the knurl/tread made into them a lot beefy’er than any they’d put on a pulley ! But just reckless speculation on my part 🤷♂️
Unfortunately, anything outside of a smooth surface will quickly wear a woven belt. Even a rusty pulley surface will start breaking down the fibers in the belt weave.
Are paper pulleys worth anything at swap meets? I think you said what you paid for your parts so I will have to go back and see if you said the price
It all depends on what they are for - these common IH ones sell for about $40-$60 if in good shape - but a genuine Caterpillar one in good condition can sell for a few hundred $$$, because they’re quite rare. Like with anything else, it all depends on brand and condition 👍
@@squatch253 Thank you!
Hey Toby,,another great video. Do have a question. Was there a particular paper or weight of paper that was used?
I don’t have the answers to those questions.
@@squatch253No worries. Just a curiosity. Would almost seem like it would have to be a pretty heavy, thick type of paper.
@@squatch253hey up they must have used paper weights
Would those old paper pulleys be made with asbestos or just simple paper?
It looks like a press-board type of paper, plus the way it rots doesn’t act like asbestos.
Cool, makes sense! Thx!@@squatch253
What is a paper pulley in good shape wort
The 9-3/4” paper pulley in this video cost me $40, which is about what they go for.
Does anyone know how much power could be put through a pulley and belt?
Enough to exceed the given tractor's power rating, typically. In some higher HP applications (steam or diesel in excess of 100 hp) then it became a lot easier to start slipping the belt, and proper tension was paramount because of the dangers that came along with a tightly strung belt under massive tension that could suddenly let go or run off of a pulley, causing a violent whip action to occur.
@@squatch253 Wow impressive! I never would have guessed it could be that much
I'm going on 80 years, I can remember some not all of what, of what, you speak😢😢, IT IS GREAT SADNESS I REALISE I WAS PERHAPS BORN IN THE WRONG CENTURY!!!!!!!SHIT HAPPENS
Weren't you going to get one repapered for 5J1113?
Yes, that was the one.