Using X-Ray Film in LF Cameras - Large Format Friday
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- One of the topics I get asked about the most, in-person or online, is “How the heck do I use x-ray film with my large format camera?”
First let’s start off describing just what this stuff is. Back in the not so distant past, if your doctor needed to check for a broken bone, they would have to take an x-ray which was exposed and developed on a large sheet of film. Some clinics and commercial applications still rely on this technology worldwide because of its cost effective and portable nature. Though we might not think of it like we think of photographic film, they’re not too different.
Yes, it’s blue. In medical and industrial uses, blue was the most common base available supposedly to reduce eye fatigue in Radiology. Another funny thing about this film is that it actually has two emulsion sides, not one. This means there’s light sensitive coating on both sides of the film, so there’s no right or wrong way to load the film into holders. Now onto the downsides:
Film is orthochromatic - cannot see red light, also don’t use tungsten balance lights
Lower speeds - most x-ray films have an ISO range of 5 - 100
EASY to scratch - lack of protective layers means less handling of film, the better
Let's load up some film under a safelight, shoot it, and see what we get when we develop by inspection!
Blog Posts for Reference:
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Great, Ongoing Source of Collective Knowledge:
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Film Photography Project X-Ray Film:
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Questions? Send me an email: largeformatquestions@gmail.com
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Hello, I have just gotten into LF. Have only exposed a few sheets so far. I just wanted to say thank you for providing this content. I have learned quite a bit from LFF. Keep it coming.
Thanks Thomas, that's why I rebooted this channel, for folks getting started!
20 years ago there were far more choices for inexpensive film, X-ray seemed like too much trouble when I could buy Ilford fp4 for under $1 per sheet in 4x5 and buy Forte and other European films even less expensively (than Ilford) even in 8x10. Now that I am coming back after 10 years I find that I am more open to the experimentation aspect and the fact that the cost is 1/10 that of the least expensive 8x10 is nice as well.
I will be developing in Pyrocat, which is my favorite using the SP-810 tray. Thanks for the video and for the series. It came at exactly the right time for me.
Totally agree with the effort versus expense situation with sheet films. For anyone shooting 8x10 and larger, x-ray film is now a huge bargain! I'm a big Pyrocat HD user, and find it works well for many types of films, but isn't a magic bullet.
Enjoyed this and really appreciate that you showed the whole process step by step.
Thanks Jim!
Oh, hey! Glad to see another Columbus photographer teaching the rest of us! :D Just got my Fuji Super HR-T30 11x14 sheets and started playing around with them.
Hey Nathan, nice to meet ya! Whoa ULF and x-ray film, very cool!
Super excited you posted this video, I have two boxes of xray film from a dentists office a friend gifted me that I’m looking forward to cracking into!
Hey Eric thanks for the comment, have fun shooting x-ray film!
Perfect timing for this vlog. Just got some for my new 14x17. Since Ilford's ULF ordering is on hold I need some film. Amazing that it comes in that size in Xray. thanks .
It's a gift for ULF shooters to have access to such an inexpensive, cool looking film!
Not sure if this was mentioned before, but using Ortho Litho film is also a good (very cheap) option for learning and testing. It's $0.10 to $0.30/sheet in 50 sheet boxes (Arista Ortho Litho 3.0 and Inkpress Hard Dot). It's also available in rolls and huge sizes, and you can develop it in D-76 or a paper developer like Dektol or SelectSoft. Just make sure you buy the correct size -- eg. for Arista you want the 3.9" x 4.9" size and NOT 4" x 5", which is actually 4 by 5 inches and not the ISO standard 4x5 size.
Is there a notch on the film like regular film? or do you go by feel of the base side? Always enjoy your videos?
Thanks for the question! Many x-ray films are double-sided so there's no notch needed, there's no wrong side to load them. For those very hard to find single-sided emulsions, they do have a corner notch.
I thought about buying this for practice but didn’t want to buy another developer for it. You think you could use something like Ilfotec HC?
any normal b&w developer should work.
Any B&W developer works, even those made for paper!
I use rodinal. 1+100 dillution
Love your video and I love this film! I did have an issue with the Spearman Press tank leaving thick lines on my negs from the tank's film holder. I'm assuming it touches the emulsion on that side. Am I doing something wrong? Have you used the Spearman Press tank to develop this film? Thanks!!!
Hi Vanessa and thanks for the question. If you're working with FPP X-Ray or any normal, double-sided x-ray film the scratches are hard to prevent. Emulsion sitting on two sides means one side will always be a bit more scratchy from handling and processing. There are single-sided mammography films still out there, but they're a bit more expensive and hard to come by.
Another excellent episode Mat! Thanks for this highly enjoyable and informative series.
Thanks Ian!
WOW, that looks nice, really nice. I have just received 4 boxes of 100 pieces of 8x10" Agfa X-Ray film recently expired real cheap and started looking how I should use and proces this film. I think the results are not just for learning, they look stunning. I like the effect of blackening the red colors, and the film seems pretty sharp although it's double sided. I will have to cut the film to 5x7 as that is the largest holders I'we got. But it seems I can do that under a red light, just have to get my darkroom up and running.
Thank you for the informative video :-)
Thanks for the comment! That's a lot of x-ray film you've got to work with, and I would agree that with proper handling it is a film that's more than just for learning. Make sure when working with a red light that it has low intensity and that you're using it indirectly if possible. Good luck!
You can stick it to a piece of glass while wet (the water will make it airtight) and rub off the other emulsion with a sponge with bleach, to get a sharper single emulsion. That's after developing and fixing.
Thank you for this video and advocacy of large format!
Thanks! X-Ray film is one of my favorite teaching tools that I think everybody should try at least once. It's not perfect, but priced well for what it offers.
Hi! Thank you for such amazing videos! I’m a beginner and just bought my first xray film and now wondering how to cut it without damaging?😅 I’m shooting 4x5 and the film is way bigger.
I got a box of x-ray film to try out in an 8x10 camera to hone in the process. I finally got 5x7 put together so I can cut some 8x10 down to 5x7. First time out showed me that the shutter speeds marked on the lenses aren't necessarily the actural shutter speeds. With corrections on the second time out, I got some OK negatives. Being able to practice on 40 cent 8x10 film allows me to experiment a little bit. Now to try to contact print 8x10. I developed in dilute HC-110
Very impressive.
Thank you very much!
I learned how to shoot X-Ray film long before I got into film photography when I was an industrial Radiographer lmao
Caveat on using Stearman Press: it may leave processing marks on one side of your film. I haven't processed X-ray film, but I do own an SP445, and I have processed film with the emulsion facing in before, which left marks where it contacted. I imagine since X-ray film has emulsion on both sides, this could very well happen to one side.
Thanks for the testimonial Dylanger. I heard of something similar to this from early versions of the SP445 and would suspect a more sensitive double sided emulsion may have issues.
@@MatMarrash oh, cool, maybe this is something they have fixed in the last couple years! Thanks for making this video series and your appearances on FPP; you're one of the main forces that convinced me to shoot 4x5 in the first place.
I just used the Spearman Press 445 to develop this film. It left marks. My images came out great otherwise. Kind of disappointing. So now I have ordered some stainless steel hangers off ebay (can't find them in stores) and I am hoping they fit in my 445 tank so I can try again.
Man this channel is the best
Thanks Dav!
Hey Mat,
When developing in Pyro HD, ‘typically’ what is the range of times you find for ‘normal’ development? Thanks for the feedback.
Hey Andrew, it will vary from one x-ray film emulsion to the next, but times are a bit extended. Should see density start coming in slowly at the 2 minute mark, and a range of finishing times from 6 min. - 10 min. Dilution, agitation method, and temperatures will also play a big role.
I recently shot some FPP X-ray film and the results are promising. I saw the examples, but I’m wondering how different green xray film compares to blue and half speed vs full speed. Thanks
Thanks for the comment! I like the speed (~ISO 100) and versatility of full speed green; you're able to use yellow filters to get separation in the sky. But, the FPP x-ray is unique in that it's pre-cut for 4x5, not a common thing in x-ray films.
Hey Mat, I always look forward the the next LFF. I have a 90mm lens for my Technika III but it does not have a focusing scale. There are no infinity stops so are you supposed to scribe a notch for every different lens? How does that work? Thanks!
Hey Robert thanks for the question. Focus scales were designed to work alongside focusing cams in the rangefinder of the Linhof Technika cameras. If you don't have a scale or infinity stops, you could fashion a working scale out of plastic tape or a label material. No permanent notching required, but you'll have to setup the camera on a tripod and measure out your scale distances.
Ok thanks for the help. Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
The process and characteristics remind me a lot of using printing paper for making papernegatives. Would you consider also making an episode on that?
Hey Erik, using B&W darkroom paper is very similar, but has enough differences that it would warrant its own video.
Hi Mat, are the final images in this video printed using an analogue method or has the xray been scanned?
Again, thank you for making the videos!
Hey Vinay, these were scans. Printing with x-ray film can introduce some extra hassle with variable contrast (VC) papers due to the blue film base. Alt process techniques and fixed contrast (graded) papers are not affected.
Thankyou Mat
I have to wonder if X-Ray film normally goes through some sort of process to make it more scratch resistant after its developed. That's because it actually is meant to be handled, once processed, by doctors constantly removing it from sleeves and sticking it onto lighted walls to look at it and make diagnoses.
There are opportunities during processing to add a chemical hardener to the film, like a fixer with a hardener. Film is at its highest risk to scratching during processing when it's wet.
Hi Matt, would this be a good option for 11x14 portraiture, contact prints.
Portraits can be tough on x-ray film, but not impossible. Lots of testing to go through, but with the right handling in development it can look quite good. Consistency from box-to-box of x-ray film is spotty, so I'd recommend testing a sheet or two from each box.
Just shot my 1st 4 sheets. All black! Used HC-110 for 6:30 in tray development. Back too the drawing board. Thanks for the video Matt!
Like all black as in not a bit clear on the film or completely see-through?
@@MatMarrash As in all black and no image. thinking I over developed it. Everyone said 6:30 for HC-110 solution H. Also shot it with constant lights too. Daylight balanced. but that shouldn't make a difference.
@@BurlapandLight Are you developing it by inspection under a red light? Another potential source of fog if it's completely uniform could be the strength of your safelight.
@@MatMarrash I'll send you an image of the red light. It was in a huge kit I bought a few years back from a guys son who did all of his own printing and safe light work. He was the HS photo teacher here when the school had the program.
My first excursion with 8x10 came out almost all black. I tested my shutter speeds and created a chart for indicated shutter speed to actual shutter speed for my shutters. Second excursion came out better but I'm still in the learning curve with 8x10 and x-ray film.
I’m glad this already existed when I googled it lol.
Hi Mat!
Can you tell me something about these x-ray films reciprocity factor?
Hey thanks for the question. These films don't have any sort of published reciprocity data. Some of them don't seem to suffer any reciprocity failure until ~ 10 sec. of exposure, others are worse than traditional grain films and need correction at 1/2 sec.
Hi very good video My experience I use kodak x ray film grenn sensitive And develop it with AGFA 30 developer make my own And to not scratch film put on the tries a glas and the film over not be scratched Best regards from ARGENTINA
Thanks Gerardo! In the past I have used the glass at the bottom of a tray, great suggestion!
I have found it really hard to develop x-ray film, it's so easily scratched and I never had much luck tray developing. It's not something I've ever tried being new to it but is it worth using a hardening fix for these?
Initially I got into it to do some really big pinhole negatives for cyanotype contact prints (as my 5x4 just seems so tiny doing it the 'normal' way) but my results have almost always resulted in unusable muddy negatives. I will have to try your highly dilute method and just watch them like a hawk.
Thanks for the comments and question! A hardener added to your fixer could potentially help, but won't prevent scratching that can occur in handling prior to fixing (including loading holders). I've seen x-ray film used before in pinhole with moderate success, but contrast control can be tricky.
You need to use a 5 min pre soak in water... that will avoid the muddy results. Also if you line your trays with a sheet of glass you will avoid the scratches.
I develop 8x10 and 11x14 xray film in flat bottomed trays using Rodinal 1:100. The trick I’ve learned to avoid (or at least greatly reduce) scratching is to hold the film in place so that it cannot move over the surface of the tray. I rock the tray to agitate the developer, but keep the film stationary. I’ll still get the occasional scratch, but even those tend to be unnoticeable in the final print. Also, wear gloves especially if you are developing in a pyro developer.
what impact does the double emulsion have on the outcome?
It makes scratches 2x as likely to happen, but also tends to build contrast faster. For the price, it's a not a bad downside.
@@MatMarrash I wonder if it would be worth trying to make the Lumiere screen on this....
Hello I have a box of 8x10 Fuji Xray film 100 nif what is the asa or iso of the film? I figured it is not 100 thank you in advance
There are many versions of x-ray film out there, none stating an ISO speed outright, meaning you're going to need to test. In general if it is listed as a blue sensitive film, test between 25 and 50 ISO, and if it is green sensitive, test between 100 and 200 ISO. Good luck!
@@MatMarrash Thank you so much you are a big help and love the channel!!!
How to these X-ray films print - thinking with multi-grade papers because of the blue base?
Good question Richard! The blue base on multigrade papers will act like a built-in high contrast filter so I tend to contact print x-ray negatives with a low grade like 0-2.
You can make a positive from these using a bleaching process right? I kinda wanted to experiment with it a bit since im using an old roll film camera with a 4x5 back on it
Thanks for the question, and the answer is "kinda". Doing a bleach and reversal process would result in a positive, but you'd still have the bluish film base.
@@MatMarrash id be fine with that
Are they literally sensitive to x-ray? Specifically, are they exposed by x-rays in airports? Hoping that they are not as standard cheap silver emulsions are not sensitive far beyond UV. Some friend told me that they are used with another layer to create images with x-rays
No these are othrochromatic sensitive films that use a specialized cassette in radiography to make an exposure using x-rays. That being said, airport x-rays will still impact these films just as much as any other low speed emulsion.
you are a genius brilliant, ❤👍🏼
I can't possibly take any of the credit for the information on working with x-ray film. After ruining hundreds of sheets of it, however, I can confidently comment on its handling, lol.
Love it
What would happen if you use a red filter when shooting? Should brighten up the reds and bring down the blues, but would add some stops to an already long exposure
Good question Yousif! Since x-ray film is orthochromatic, a red filter will eliminate most (if not all) parts of the usable blue green light hitting the film. Early on I tested some full speed green x-ray film with an orange filter and ended up with an unusable, very underexposed negative.
@@MatMarrash What about yellow? Light orange? Anything! TRY ALL THE FILTERS IN EXISTENCE! :P Cool channel. Good luck!
@@yjawhar Yellow is fine with Green sensitive film, light orange has a hefty filter factor. Been through lots of x-ray film, tried quite a few. ;)
@@MatMarrash I don't shoot film cuz it's expensive to do so here, but I get excited too about it! Good luck!
You'll mostly just get an either "all black or all white indistinct shapes" crayon drawing.
Good job!
Thanks Rodolfo!
What ISO did younshoot it at may I ask?
FPP X-ray film is a half-speed blue film that does well at ISO 5.
Great Stuff Mat! On a side note are you and Lauren in a relationship? I’ve kinda wondered about that for years. But I didn’t want to make any assumptions. If I ever of any other questions about LF I’ll definitely send’em to ya. Cheers!
Hey Jesse we sure are, have been for over a decade. :)
What developer do you use
I like to use a developer that can be controlled via higher dilutions like HC 110 (dilution H) or Pyrocat HD (1:1:100).
He keeps saying " saving a little bit "! Google the price of one hundred sheets ( they often come in boxes of 25 sheets ) of cheapest 8x10 film and compare it with hundred sheets of X-Ray film.
Haha yeah shooting 8x10 for long enough will desensitize you to the price!
I make a new experience with developer D23 and I have very good results
Were you using a single bath or two-bath version of D23?
@@MatMarrash I use D23 in 1 +1 and no other developer Now I m testin for a fixer hardner because emulsion is so able to be damere then I think a hard fixer may protect it
Fix your site! Its very unfriendly to use, images are waaay scaled up.
So I can improve the experience, which way did you view the site? Mobile? Desktop? Tablet?
Or just buy FOMA 100, 4 times as cheap as FP4