As a C6 Z06 owner, I really appreciate this video. I have driven my car for 60,000 miles. It's my dream car. And after six years of ownership,it is still a blast to drive. Thanks again for the great video
The secret sauce of that C6 Z06 is its incredibly light weight. Also full credit for having 500hp from a NA V8 nearly twenty years ago. Would be cool to see another comparison like this to include the C7 Z06.
Its the full combo of power to weight and excellent gearing for the power given. Not just the power alone but the way in which the power is made due to having large displacement. 500hp 5.7 power isn't the same as 500hp 7.0 power. Their torque numbers would not be the same nor would the peaks be at the same rpm. And not only is it light but it has a specific balance of the weight. Its an incredibly well put together vehicle.
@@swappedoutZ71 Almost 3200 lbs is not a light car, the fact people are calling it light is more a testament to how stupidly heavy cars have become than the C6 actually being light. Your comment on 7.0 power not being equal to 5.7 power is idiotic. Power is an objective measurement, not subjective. Torque is basically irrelevant for speed when you have a gearbox as all cars do. Sure if you want to trundle around at 1500rpm and still have power then the big engine is better, however if you're actually pushing the car in it's proper rev range then torque is effectively a useless stat. What matters is torque at the wheels, not at the flywheel. A gearbox is a torque multiplier allowing for whatever wheel torque you want. Sure the big engine will make peak power at lower rpm but if you are pushing the car to the limit actually using all the power available then the lower rpm range is irrelevant. If you're at less than 3500rpm on a race track then you're either driving a diesel or you are not a very good driver.
@@swappedoutZ71 Oh and saying the C6 Corvette is "an incredibly well put together vehicle" is the best joke I've ever heard. It is demonstrably one of the cheapest and worst built vehicles in its price range, you paid for the engine, not quality. Nothing wrong with that, just saying it's absolutely not well put together, the interior is known to literally continuously fall apart.
My 2013 C6Z is over 130,000 miles. And it still feels new. I certainly have had some issues along the way. With a set of Koni shocks and PS SS and 4S non EMT tires, the car is just soooo engaging to drive. With MUCH more traction overall. This video just reinforces my desire to keep it for forever. I don't need anything faster or better handling. I can still do 500-600 mile trips (with a week's worth of luggage for 2), get about 30 mpg doing 75-85, and not feel crippled getting out of the car. I fill up, walk around a bit and in 15 min, I'm ready for the next 600 miles. To paraphrase Ferris Bueller, 'if one has the means, it's choice...I recommend picking one up..' Or something like that...
@ So I have owned a 1996 LT4 car, now a 2000 hardtop 6MT with Z51 suspension, and would love to upgrade to a C6 GS. Does the C6 still feel like a raw go-kart like the C5 or do you lose some feeling with the refinement? I'm wondering if I would enjoy a C6 or not, the C5 is literally a go-kart for adults. The interior is....horrible, though. I would love an upgrade honestly. Would love to know your thoughts.
@ My Z06 /w 4S non EMTs /w Koni Sport shocks has a terrific ride quality considering how stiff the springs are. Rough road behavior, steering linearity were greatly improved. Including a stronger sense of on center feel. IMO, I never feel being beaten up unless the road is a terrible tertiary type.
whew! 130k miles is crazy high for a vette, especially a Z06. My 08 Z, for example, has about 30k. That's cool that you actually drive it though. I definitely drive mine but since I work from home and also have another car, I can keep the miles off it. But to echo your sentiment, I do plan to keep this thing until they quit selling gasoline!
@@Sandy-oy2lr - I have an 07 Z with 160K - motor rebuilt about 60K ago. It needing another refresh on trans/suspension. I just need to keep the freak’n dentist out of my mouth! Somehow the Wyatt Earp quote from Doc Holliday asking Wyatt Earp “how are your teeth and they cannot be replaced” somehow seems relevant when you have toys that you’re wanting to freshen, but you’re dropping your “toy” budget on keeping teeth in you’re head. Welcome to your 60’s.
C6 Z was really ahead of it's time, i remember video's of street races where heavily modded 4th gen Fbodies and 03/04 Cobra's were roll racing stock C6 Z's, and losing.
That was one of the better done videos I’ve seen in a while. As he correctly points out once you match up modern tires these gaps almost disappear. The fact that even on the old tires from 15 years ago the C6 was within a couple percent is amazing on its own. I’m waiting for the channel that takes a lot of these older cars over the last 20 years put them on Cup 2 R’s and we get to see a modern day head to comparison.
@@GridForgeMFG I subscribed and really hope you're able to do that. I have a fair amount of experience with sorts cars dating back from 70's BMWs with round taillights and for sure, tires have come a really long way since then. Also a couple Vettes and now on mt second Cayman so I'm not overly brand loyal. Anything that goes fairly fast will do but cornering is were I really feel what the car is capable of. Thanks for your "nerdy" video!
@ your channel is gonna do great. When you’re opening up a content like that with only 2000 subscribers, you’ll be in 100,000 in a couple months. So if you keep on producing smart content like that video, something I doubt most people even thought about which is the entire compound difference , is the kind of content that’ll push you towards the top. I am subscribed, and I’ll be around and I look forward to what you have coming up . Keep up the good work buddy
C6 Z06 is King “Biased C6 Z06 owner” Lb for Lb it cant be beat. Timeless design Impeccable sound Cheap to modify 15k -20k in suspension, tires, aero, and bolt ons “fixing the heads”. You have an absolute track weapon for less than 100k
Like Slick said, this applies to any car. Hell, I have $10k into my Lotus at a PP of $26k and it'll embarrass just about any car it comes across, including most C6Zs. You can make any old car perform better than a new car for less than the cost of a new car.
Two sides to this: First, older cars with newer tires and suspension components are much better, cut and dry. The same can be said for cars with upgraded ECU tunes, exhaust mods, and numerous other performance modifications. Anything that reduces weight, and improves acceleration and braking matters. Car companies need to stop engineering a car at some point or they'd never go to production. Second, newer cars have to meet stricter safety and emissions standards, and both tend to add weight. A great video about this is Porsche talking about the differences between the new 992.2 GT3 and the 992.1 GT3, while on paper you would think they did nothing to the new car other than cosmetic changes but there are dozens of changes made to keep the GT3 compliant with current regulations.
Using the GT3 as an example defeats your own argument because the new GT3 weighs the same as the older one. The C8 is 500lbs heavier than the C6 because GM wanted it to feel like a fast luxury car, more tech, more comfort, more performance, it's not like the C6 doesn't have any safety equipment so the main difference now is all the added amenities.
@@BRAINFxck10 Have you watched the interviews with AP and his engineers? If I have the numbers correct the new requirements added about 40 lbs to the GT3 from the 992.1 to the 992.2, they had to work hard to remove weight back out of the car. Also, you can get a C8 1LZ that doesn't have as much luxury and technology and it's still heavier than the c6, so luxury features and technology aren't the whole story. Of course, size matters, and the C8 is a bigger and heavier car, partly to address front and side impact safety standards.
Most of this is new tire technology, much like golf clubs can’t get much better in head technology, the gains are now in the shafts. Remarkable gains. They can get more ball speed and spin off the tee etc. same with cars. Tire companies now work hand in hand with the manufacturers to get a combo that’s faster in the new model. It’s almost a sleight of hands to the consumer
This was a really well-conceived and well-executed video! That said, I do want to share my experience with anyone thinking about buying a lightly used C6Z (or any older car) for performance use. Hearing something go pop at 130 MPH affects one's purchasing decisions. The reality of owning and maintaining a car that's nearly two decades old is not always pretty. I found getting quality repairs performed at my local GM dealer or performance shop to be a challenge. I also found a lot of non-performance related components required replacement after 14 years of heat cycles. Everything got brittle, so just checking the air filter could result in something crumbling. Many of those parts were out of production, so purchasing from a salvage dealer often cost more than new: sometimes three times as much! I did ALL of the maintenance on my C6Z (e.g., oil, trans fluid, rear diff fluid, etc.), but I drew the line when a prob exceeded my skills or tools. I ended up with a rear main seal leak that cost $2K at a well-regarded local performance shop and another $600 to get the GM dealer to fix what the performance shop broke (wrapped e-brake line around exhaust causing extensive melting). I then spent 2 hours under the car to fix what the dealer screwed up (failed to re-tighten the exhaust). In the end, I didn't trust the work of the dealer or the performance shop enough to run the car hard, so I sold it. I now have a C8 Stingray. Night and day diff in quality, fit, and finish that is largely due to the fact that it's new. From a performance perspective, the C8 is as much of a beast 0-60 as the C6Z was 60-130. Both are great cars in their own unique ways. The point is, actually owning these cars is very different from comparing them on paper or even on a track. Driving them is also VERY different. Getting a decent launch out of a C6Z requires feathering the throttle, slipping the clutch, and performing a perfect 1-2 powershift all while fighting a rear end that wants to boogie... sideways. ALL THOSE STEPS IN 3.6 SECONDS! My C6Z taught me to just smile when someone suggests a manual trans, the C8 eLSD 5.2 final drive ratio, and street tires are a good combo. Whatever you buy, do your research on the Internet, but be sure to actually drive the car and talk to the people who own them before spending your hard-earned dollars.
well said, I bought my C6Z before I knew about the LS7 problems but I got mine fixed before I tracked it. It was low miles so the heads were in great shape but I wasn't taking the chance of blowing my motor. I agree that old cars have their problems, I would love a C8Z06 or C8ZR1, those are monsters as well. But for now I am content with the C6Z. I am still scared to track it too much, mostly since my skills aren't developed enough to push the car too much. I will get there though
Excellent and very interesting video, with an emphasis on honesty and pragmatism. I owned a C6 Z06 for 11 years, trading it on a C7 Z06, which I never bonded with. Truly a scary vehicle, and the last gasp of front engine/RWD Corvettes. I now have a '24 C8 Z51, and I find your observations spot on. The C6 Z06 was a purposeful car, with fanatical attention to weight reduction. Totally successful implementation of design! The C7 Z06 is just a gussied-up C6 Z06, with a hair dryer slapped on it to compensate for the added 400 lbs. of crap. I didn't really like it, and kept it only 2 years. The C8 is finally a different animal, as the C5, C6, and C7 (owned them all) felt very similar and evolutionary. The C8 is revolutionary due to the mid-engine 40/60 weight distribution. Turn-in, exit, launch, ride quality in my C8 are superior to anything I've owned. Stable, predictable, confidence inspiring. Best Corvette yet. The launch is insane, and I've seen 2.7-seconds 0-60. F1 and Indy cars don't have manuals for the same reason. You couldn't launch a C8, shift to 2nd, and then shift to 3rd before 60 mph with a stick in under 3 seconds. I sure couldn't, and as an old drag racer and professional drummer, I don't have the chops to do it. My previous 4 Corvettes, all traction limited, hit 60 in 1st gear; way too tall gearing, but necessary due to traction. Like none at all. The C8 (and my AWD 2.0L turbo GLA 45 AMG) launch like a kernel of popcorn exploding off the hot pan. I don't care much that my C8 isn't especially quick after 60 mph because on the street and the drag strip, launch is only everything. In my opinion, the C6 Z06 is, overall, the best front engine/RWD Corvette ever made. And in most categories, the C8 Z51 bests it, despite a far worse lb/hp ratio. One other comment concerning the C8Z at Nurburgring: I think it turned in that disappointing time on a crowded track. OTOH, the new Mustang GTD got under 7:00 all alone out there. Thanks again for one of the best car videos, ever. SRSLY.
I'm pretty sure the track was closed for the C8Z test but they had very little time with the car and only got a few laps in. Weather was not ideal either.
The c8 z06's gearing holds it back on the ring. It has 3 od gears, which is a serious hindrance when enduring the dramatic elevation changes and challenges at the ring
Seriously, 5th-8th are all far too tall. The Z06 doesnt have the torque, power or aero to push through long gearing at high speeds. They shouldve just used 7th & 8th for od. But based on my math, comparing C&D's highly-standardized VIR times to the Ring.. The C8Z should be capable of a 6:48-6:53, C7 ZR1 should do 6:49-6:54, and the C7 Z07 would be 7:00-7:05. (With ideal laps, ideal conditions, a local driver etc). I cant account for tall gearing/poor performance on the straight away though. But the Viper ACR did 7:01 with a rushed attempt, poor conditions, private team & backup driver new to the car. Yet the Vettes have a MUCH lower drag cd (.38-39 vs .54). And higher skidpad grip C7 ZR1 ztk 1.19-1.22g (2nd best on earth) C7 Z07 1.20g C8 Z07 1.16g (GM claims 1.22g with proper tire PSI) ACR 1.15g So I think the C7's & C8's could do much better than expected.
Heres the math I did recently comparing 'Ring times to VIR 'Lightning Lap' times. (aka America's 'Ring), a high-speed, technical, 3.3mi track. Also Car&Driver does highly standardized testing, w/ several sets of tires, factory support, etc. (300+ cars, over 17yrs) But I broke down the VIR & 'Ring times into seconds.. & divided them for multiple cars. And the top cars match up on each track. Each of these car's 'Ring times = x2.55-2.61 their VIR time. (Math is at the bottom) Times: V.I.R./Nurburgring AMG GT Black 2;37 / 6;43.6 (x2.57) 992 GT3RS 2;37.2 / 6;44.8 (x2.575) C8 Z07 2;38.6 / C7 zr1 (7mt) 2;39.5 / 992 GT3 2;40.6 / 6;55.3 (x2.585) 991.2 GT3rs 2;41.6 / 6;56.4 (x2.576) 918 Spyder 2;43.1 / 6;57 (x2.556) Viper ACRx 2;44.2 / 7;01 (2.563) C7 Z07 2;44.6 / 7;10 (x2.612) 2012 Zr1 2;50.7 / 7;19 (x2.57) (Here's the likely times based on the mulitples listed above). -C8 Z07 VIR 2;38.6 x2.61 (6;53.9) x2.595 (6;51.5) x2.585 (6;50)** x2.575. (6;48.4)* x2.57. (6;47.6) x2.563. (6;46.5) x2.556. (6;45.38) -C7 ZR1 ZTK 7mt VIR 2;39.5 x2.61 (6;56.3) x2.595. (6;53.9) x2.585 (6;52.3)** x2.575 (6;50.7)* x2.57 (6;49.9) x2.563 (6;48.8) x2.556 (6;47.6) So considering Vette's wild VIR performance.. And the other cars they destroyed there (458, 488gtb, Ford GT, Huracan Perf, Evo, Technica, 650s, 720s, 600LT, amg gtr, Viper ACR, 918s, Manthey GT3's & more).. The C7 ZR1 should do 6:49-6:54, and C8 Z07 should do a 6:47-6:52. Math example: 2012 ZR1 on cup tires did a 7;19 (439 seconds).. and a 2;50.7 (170.7 sec) @ VIR. So 439sec ÷ 170.7sec = a multiple of (x2.57).
Agree, I enjoyed this video but he stated all the reasons why new cars have an advantage but failed to mentioned where they’re disadvantaged. Emission regs screwed the gearing and safety increased weight. Imagine a c8 with optimised gearing where 7th or 8th hit its peak speed. Youed see an increase of 80-100 hp between shift points compared to 5th gear now. Average hp between shift points is the key figure to acceleration.
The C6 Z06 is truly impressive. When it came out it was race car technology on the small block engine front. Still impressive to drive today. If anyone hasn’t experienced it, I highly recommend it. I love my C7 ZO6/Zo7 7M but I have a tremendous fondness for the C6Z.
I think we need some track times with the C6Z with cup 2 R tires. Tire tech has come a long way in 20 years. We need to be comparing the cars capability to each other and the only way is with the same tires.
Great, informative presentation. Thank you for posting. Purchased my 2008 C6 Z06 new off the showroom floor. LG Motorsports performed the cam, stainless headers, K&N air filter install and dyno tune. Oversized 345/30 ZR19 rears on Forgeline wheels shed about 60 lbs in total and eliminated the awful heat radiating into the cabin from the oem cast iron exhaust manifold. It prefers ethanol free premium, has been reliable, easy, low cost to maintain and still gets attention. Could be the best generation Z06 ever.
My choice today would fine a cherry low mileage C6 Grand Sport. with 6 speed. Same car with the super reliable LS3. 430 beans is still enough, and with a few external mods is about perfect. Thanks for this neat video.
@@DaleWalkerHoleshot This is precisely the car I'm targeting. Not as sexy or delicate as the Z06, but more durable. I'm fine with the tradeoff and the pricing difference. I want something I can pound and never worry about.
Dale, I totally agree with you. C6 GS is the sweet spot to me. I own a 2003 C5 50th Anniversary convertible and I’m keeping it. But if I were in the market to go a little newer, the C6 GS would be my choice. It looks great too!
I had a c5Z with over 1000 HP and one of my clients got a brand new c6z. We raced,he lost and then spent all kinds of money to catch up only to lose again with his head/cam setup but he won with that beautifully updated generation of a Corvette. I wanted his car bad but had to much invested into mine. Good times.
This type of video has to be a nightmare for an automotive marketing team lol good analysis though, i love videos like these that show love to great cars, old and new
From winning Le mans, to ripping on drag strips, circuits, and even drifting the C6 Z06 is perhaps one of the GREATEST CARS EVER MADE, yes I said cars, the c6 z06 still relevant to this day,
The C6's outward beauty really shows in the high speed wind performance advantage. It looks a lot more slippery than the C8 and is in fact a lot more slippery through the air with a significantly better coefficient of drag.
@ The numbers you quoted are not accurate. The base C8 published Cd is .32 with higher option models registering .35. The base C6 Cd was .28 with the Z06 coming in at .34. And yes, it IS significant because at 185-200 mph, wind resistance is increasing with the square of velocity.
@ Oh my goodness! You found different C8 numbers to help support your point. What a shocker. Your claim is as unsubstantiated as mine, so I’ll stick with my numbers and claim yours are incorrect due to your bias. Neener neener. And using caps doesn’t prove significance. Math and science prove significance. Show us the math.
@ The only numbers that truly matter are the precise calculations run by GM in both designs which show significantly lower Cd for the older car which explains why a C6 has a 198mph top speed and the C8 is limited to 189 mph. This also explains the C8's Nurburgring disappointment as that track is considered a proving ground for top speed as well as handling.
I wonder what kind of power a fully updated version of the LS7 could generate. Probably more than enough power and torque to challenge the exotic DOHC, Flat Plane Crank engine found in the C8 Z06?
The reason that the C8 is slower above 100 is because the bean counters at Chevrolet won out over the engineering team and refused to provide each version of the C8 a version of the DCT that was optimized for its particular engine. Lower top speeds of the newer versions is because they (particularly the cars whose data are used cited, which both had track packages equipped) have track - focused aerodynamics for higher downforce, which by design produces more drag to produce that downforce, which in turn reduces top speed. This is not to take anything away from the C6 Z06, which was an amazing machine and still can turn wicked fast track numbers. There are some good videos of a French bodybuilder/enthusiast who turns very low seven minute BTG times in one at the Ring. That fanatical focus on weight reduction and the high revving naturally aspirated V8 just killed!
The gearing would help a little but the c8 is definitely not going to see a big difference as this has to do with power to weight. C8 has such an advantage from a stop has to do with engine being over the rear wheels. No gearing in the c8 is gonna keep it close from a rolling speed
@ by “C8” I believe you mean “C8 Stingray”. Gearing can and does help at any speed. That’s why quarter-mile racers for years have been using shorter rear ends and prefer close - ratio gear sets, which is not what is present in the C8. Weight doesn’t make that much of a difference above 100 mph, because at that speed drag force is what comes into play. Drag force increases with the square of the velocity, so it very quickly over comes lighter weight advantages. The key is the force pushing the vehicle at the wheels, and gears are a force multiplier. And here the C8 is at a loss… Coupled with its higher - downforce aerodynamics, it loses ground above 100. So from 60-100, the C8 Stingray is 0.4 slower. From 60-150, it’s 2.8 slower. The bulk of it, 2.4 sec, comes over 100, at which time drag from the aero and too-high gearing come into play. So it would definitely be much tighter if not for the bean counters. But the C6 Z06 definitely is helped by its weight advantage, no doubt about that. That beast was an engineering marvel. Big fan here! Just disappointed the bean counters won out and left performance on the table w/the C8’s.
Wow! Great video. When choosing tires, what do you suppose would be a decent high-performance street & track tire that won't break the bank? I drive a C6 with MRC, a 6MT, and I replaced the OEM drilled rotors with 2 piece slotted rotors that have the cooling vanes actually correct. The Corvette group I run around with has mostly C8s. When we go somewhere I never have any problem keeping up. Our fastest driver drives a C7, and he's fast because he's had a lot of track time & corresponding high-speed driving training. I've mentioned tracking my car to others and they always ask if I have a Z06, commenting "why bother" with a base model C6, but as near as I can tell, I have more car than I could ever drive effectively. I find the weakest leak in the car, besides the tires, is the transmission. Maybe I've got a dud, but it doesn't allow for quick shifting, needing to be very warm, & even then, needing to be careful to avoid gear grinding.
RT660's have been popular in the groups i run with, but they are fairly aggressive. And definitely track it! you do not need a Z06 to have fun on track.
I think you could "massage" those C6 #'s a bit with stickier tires, lowering springs, tuning to get 700 hp. I'd love to see a C6 with those mods go up against C8 ZO6. I bet that it's also more fun to drive
This is an exceptional viewpoint that I've been opining on for a few years. Tire technology has been the most significant driver of faster lap times with traction control advances coming in a distant second. I was proud to finally see someone make this point when the CGT came out with updated NBRG time. Power to weight ratio and grip layout a cars capabilities quite well and the C6Z will always be world class when it comes to those. I have found Gen 2 Vipers to be even more so with updated rubber and suspension. Extremely capable cars and my favorite to this day. Great analysis!
I heard someone mention the likely culprit for the C8 platform is a particularly tall 5th gear. Once you hit that 5th gear, especially on the 'Ring, the revs drop and it can't accelerate very quickly in that gear. I think 6-8 are all OD gears on the C8. This could be why road course laptimes suffer on some tracks. Will be interesting to see if the C8 ZR1 can power through this with its turbos.
5th gear is really only a “problem” at its upper range close to redline. Otherwise, the Z06 and LT6 are both still pulling hard in 5th. What happened on the ring during the Z06’s lap wasn’t down to gearing, but rather merely a sloppy lap done by Sport Auto, they were using automatic mode for the DCT, the tires were still cold, and the driver, Christian, was driving the car in a noticeably timid fashion. Compare this to Misha Charoudin, who made mention of the longer gears only once during his actual tracking of the car, and adjusted accordingly, keeping the transmission in the optimal meat of the Z06’s power band, which means that the car’s revs need to be kept high. Watch any lap set by a Z06, especially on longer tracks like VIR, and COTA, and you’ll see that 5th gear isn’t really an issue. The ZR1 of course won’t have an issue at all, as has already been shown multiple times. It hits its top speed of 233 mph in 6th gear, so it’ll be pulling hard all throughout gears 1-6.
@maziyarebrahimi997 correct forgot to mention that one as well it's a GM thing they always do weird things its literally apart of their brand to have icks
@@danieldickerson4838 : Both the C8 Z06 and Z51 Stingray use the same Tremec 9080 transmission, so the gear ratios are the same. There are some internal differences, but none are ratio related. For example, the ring and pinion ratios are also the same (3.55:1). Only the transfer gear ratios differ, but not enough to account for the hard pull you mentioned.
Excellent video - I have a c6 z with over 600 rear wheel hp and I know I can over take the new z06 except at the initial launch due to dual clutch transmission. This is by far the best comparison video I've seen on the cars.
I think the new C8 just has better launch control. DCT doesn't help except for acceleration loss during shifts. Also shift times help on the track but not in your example. Gearing efficiency matters to, but that is less a characteristic of the DCT and more a reflection of what numbers Chevy wanted to hit in all performance metrics.
@@Nick-gg6tgWrong, as far as straight line, the C7Z is a tie for 1/4 miles and and faster than the C8Z. On track it depends on the track. Tighter tracks favor the C8’s but tracks with more straight line runs favor the C7Z.
C7 Z is the best bang for the buck. I own one and I love it. Its fast and rowdy that gives you chills evety time you push the throttle. It numbers are close to C8 Z and sometimes even better. With a little mods you can unleash a beast that has no match.
I would like for a privateer to take a C7 ZR1 on the best tires today and see what it can do at the RING. I would bet my paycheck it would be a sub 7 minute time under optimum conditions. The C8 ZO6 is also crippled by gearing and neither the C7 and C8 don't have active aero.
Another thing because I was once a corvette c7 owner: chassi stiffness is much more improved and the weight of the car also increased with more forging. So that can be also a factor in even if tires are better nowadays.
My 04 C5 has 455 NA RWHP with a 4:10 rear axle ratio, full Bilstein treatment, bigger bars, Lowered, and so much more to make it like a high powered go kart both on the street and track. The Toyo R88R's hook so well. Important that I swapped out the stock seats for Corbeau racing seats cause it is near impossible to take corners at the track without being pinned against the door panel without them! OH, no mention of the brakes or clutch in the video. Hawk racing pads and a Monster 800hp clutch were a must and really work so well. Just a really fun car on the street and the track, and all for a heck of lot less cash. Older Vettes can still git r dun!!
Good point about the repave of VIR. One thing I’ll point out about lightning lap times is they use different drivers for each car meaning in their day of testing they use multiple drivers which is ridiculous and leads to inconsistency with lap times as you just saw.
I’m finishing up a 730hp 69 camaro to mimic a previous 625hp 67 camaro I used to drag race and road race, just changing shock settings and wheel/tire combo. I’ve owned a 600hp C5 Z06 and with a big brake kit it was a phenomenal track car, though slower in the 1/2 mile and 1/4 mile then my 950hp 17 ZL1. I’ve gotten old enough to not miss the manual trans thing and the 17 ZL1 auto trans was awesome. Although I’d love to own a C6 ZR1 I cannot drive the manual trans well at the qtr mile so the th400 with a gv will have to do in the 69 camaro for all venues as it did previously in the 67, as well as my processing skills have slowed enough that I don’t need the fastest thing on a track. Straight line is a whole nother matter though. Other then the 69 camaro the C6 ZR1 is my favorite hotrod!
Thanks for sharing, as a c8 z51 owner, I must say I dont know why stock front is only 245 like econ car. This car should come with 275 front and can easily fit 305
C2-C7 were front mid-engine design. All thanks to Duntov wanting a sports car over a roadster which was the C1. Since couldn't get the rear mid-engine layout done back then. He opted front mid-engine for better handle dynamics. When GM decided to move the transmission behind the cockpit in the C5. It gave the Corvette exceptional front to rear weight distribution. Culminating in the C7 having a 50/50 weight distribution bias. Also C6 Z06 had an aluminum and magnesium chassis for weight savings. C6 ZR1 had a completely aluminum chassis. People will often associate the term mid-engine as rear engine bias but that's not the case. Both front and rear mid-engine cars have existed from some time. Other examples of front mid-engine cars are the Vipers, Mercedes SLR and Austin Martin's to name a few. Mid-engine is just engine placement behind front suspension(axle) or in front of rear suspension(axle) as close as possible to the center of the car.
I always wondered what would happen between these two. The C6 will remain timeless it’s like wrestling an alligator out of every corner and I love that feeling 🏎️🐊
I've always been curious about the fourth gen Camaros and Firebird ws6 cars if given modern tires and a chance for a lap of the Nurburgring. When those cars were coming out the track was just getting popularized as the handling benchmark. I know it wouldn't break records but I think these cars handle better than they have a reputation for.
I’ve raced my friends c8z in my c7z, from a dig he gets me but roll racing I’ve got him by a few car lengths. Handling, I’d say my car points in the turn a lot quicker, it’s 50/50 weight. The c8 is 40/60 which still handles well but the front end doesn’t inspire much confidence during high speeds and understeers a bit and feels a bit sketchy
Agree with other comments ... one of the better (performance) comparison videos: one (key) factor was obviously missing in this comparison, however: the difference between paddle-shift only cars and, for this example, a C6 T56 6-speed manual decreases performance as much (or very close) to older tech tires and the some of the new Track-Focused tires available now. I look forward to watching your other videos.
There is another factor just as important as the tires, perhaps more; driver skill. As a regular track day participant, I often see good drivers in cars with half the horsepower of their track mates not just beat them but lap them. It's sad how poor most drivers are!
Would love to see you bring in 3 more often overlooked Corvettes and get them tested on modern rubber. The 1990 ZR1, 1996 Grand Sport with the LT4, and then an 02-04 Z06. To this day, my 2002 Z was my favourite drivers car, even more so than my C6 Z was. The C6 was almost "too much" for me. That being said, i finally rented a C8 and that'll be the next toy. I loved it.
Interesting vid. Perhaps gearing and certainly the instant shifting of the C8 transmission compared to a C6 manual stick, would explain the faster acceleration times below 150 mph of the C8. The lack of a manual trans in the C8 is a deal breaker for me, I may be slower shifting myself, but it's pure pleasure driving my manual C6 Z.
Brought to Ad free by Michelin Tire North America.. LOL I'm kidding. My wife works at Michelin and we are a Michelin tire family of course, its all I run.
At speed… above 120mph. The doesn’t happen much… even on a track. The C6 Z06 is crazy fast but not nearly as fast as the C8 Z06. The C8Z51 is nearly as fast on a track and that’s the plain Jane Vet. This video is trying too hard.
I would still say the Viper was the most powerful NA car. Even though it had less peak HP, it had a lot more torque and low-end power than the flat plane Z06
I like that argument cuz that V10 is barely breaking a sweat just imagine with a Calvo billet block boosted and built to the max it can hold over 4,000HP so the stock power is super light work for that engine
Makes me want a C6 again. It also looks better and can be tuned easily. It was a better overall engineered car in my opinion. I owned a 2007 ZO6 I should never have sold it.
You said it best when conveying that not having a manual transmission in the C8 Z06 is troubling at best. Other manufacturers have seen and understand the importance of offering a manual transmission. Even though the DCT is a mechanical marvel it doesn't give the driver the true control over the car equipped with a manual. If the DCT was equipped with a simulated clutch and shifter, as in the Koenigsegg, it would be an option that true car enthusiasts would embrace, but an authentic 6 or 7-speed manual needs to be offered for the C8 Z06. If only GM would reconsider!? As for the differences in time and speed from the C6 ZO6 through the variations of the C8 is all due to the C6 not able to put the power down and that's because the C8 is equipped with a mid-engine rear-engine setup whereas, the C6 ZO6 has a mid-engine front-engine setup. The one thing that needs to be noted, is the delay in which the C8 Z51 finally arrives at 150 mph and that has been expressed by C8 owners where it doesn't have that "pull" that you generally feel in a high torque engine but it is also attributed to the gearing in the C8. If the C8 Z06 did come with a manual transmission I would be driving one today, but I will have to be content with my modified C5 Z06 and that includes tires, and the only complaint I have is not being able to access the Nurburgring by way of the Autobahn ¿`_
The only thing I feel that wasn't discussed is the relative approachability to the limit of the C6 Z06 vs the newer C8/C8Z. While an advanced driver can put down VERY competitive lap times to the newer machines, the average driver will have a much greater delta in lap times due to the advances in chassis refinement of the newer platform.
Another vote for the content here, really cool video.And not just because I'm a LS7 fan! Subscribed for more. The comparisons of top speed had me wondering - is the top speed of the C8 Z06 limited by aero, or gearing? Is it at redline at 189, or can it not overcome the downforce?
The acceleration times suggest the difference lies in aerodynamics. The acceleration difference at low speeds shows that the C8 has more than enough power to overcome its weight challenge. But as speeds increase above 130 mph, the acceleration comparison starts to flip. This situation is easily explained by the underlying math - aerodynamic drag increases with the square of velocity (non-linear or "exponential" change).
Man, I shouldn’t have sold my 2008 atomic orange 🍊 Z06! Had for 10 years- and the manual was messing my left knee up after years of jumping out of airplanes!
Great video! But I'm prejudiced...have a C6Z. Having said that, I've played tag with a semi pro driven C8 Z51 and yes...my C6Z has the legs. I think the result would have been different at a tighter track
The issue I see is that the tracks you compared are fairly high-speed tracks. The mid- rear engine layout of the C8 will show it's benefit on a much more technical track.
Good point. Another thing I thought of (after posting this) would be to look at SCCA Solo Nationals times for AutoX. Tires are controlled w/ classes and would've showed interesting low speed data.
Oh yeah. The 07 Z06 was on terrible Goodyears. 275/325 18/19"s. But the 2012's have 285/335 19/20" ps2's or Cup "1's". And then even going with modern PS4s' would be a huge improvement in wet & dry. Not to mention Cup2 R's
A heads cam intake C6 Z06 Wayne just over 3000 pounds with 600+ rear wheel horsepower will absolutely outrun a c8 z06 from a roll convincing coil covers and sticky tires and a competent driver and the C6 Z I believe we also outshine a c8 z06 on a road course
New cars are better at being consistent and easier to drive for most people. DCTs and advanced stability and traction control like PTM does wonders to mitigate skill gaps. The older cars require pro drivers and pro skills.
Where are you getting your Data? The C8 Base topped out at 194 MPH at the Nurenburg ring while the C8 Z06 at 210 MPH Straight line. Are you talkinglap time or overall top speed?
Notice he didn’t compare the standard C6 version. But made sure to compare the base C8 model. Makes the C6 look better by comparison but clearly it has a huge advantage over the C851. Again putting the standard C6 would highlight that. But wouldn’t get his results across as much as he wanted to
It should be noted that the starting MSRP on both the C6 and C8 Z06 are about the same when adjusted for inflation. $75k in 2009 = $109k in 2024. Glad you mentioned that the C8 Z06 lap time at the Nurburgring is too slow. It should absolutely be able to take at least 8 seconds off under more ideal conditions.
As a C6 Z06 owner, I really appreciate this video. I have driven my car for 60,000 miles. It's my dream car. And after six years of ownership,it is still a blast to drive. Thanks again for the great video
You had the rods and heads done yet lol
I love the C6Z. Glad you’re still enjoying yours!
60k miles! That’s impressive cuz most vette owners probably have about 59k miles less 😂
The secret sauce of that C6 Z06 is its incredibly light weight. Also full credit for having 500hp from a NA V8 nearly twenty years ago. Would be cool to see another comparison like this to include the C7 Z06.
Its the full combo of power to weight and excellent gearing for the power given. Not just the power alone but the way in which the power is made due to having large displacement. 500hp 5.7 power isn't the same as 500hp 7.0 power. Their torque numbers would not be the same nor would the peaks be at the same rpm. And not only is it light but it has a specific balance of the weight. Its an incredibly well put together vehicle.
@@swappedoutZ71
Almost 3200 lbs is not a light car, the fact people are calling it light is more a testament to how stupidly heavy cars have become than the C6 actually being light.
Your comment on 7.0 power not being equal to 5.7 power is idiotic. Power is an objective measurement, not subjective. Torque is basically irrelevant for speed when you have a gearbox as all cars do. Sure if you want to trundle around at 1500rpm and still have power then the big engine is better, however if you're actually pushing the car in it's proper rev range then torque is effectively a useless stat. What matters is torque at the wheels, not at the flywheel. A gearbox is a torque multiplier allowing for whatever wheel torque you want. Sure the big engine will make peak power at lower rpm but if you are pushing the car to the limit actually using all the power available then the lower rpm range is irrelevant. If you're at less than 3500rpm on a race track then you're either driving a diesel or you are not a very good driver.
@@swappedoutZ71 Oh and saying the C6 Corvette is "an incredibly well put together vehicle" is the best joke I've ever heard. It is demonstrably one of the cheapest and worst built vehicles in its price range, you paid for the engine, not quality. Nothing wrong with that, just saying it's absolutely not well put together, the interior is known to literally continuously fall apart.
My 2013 C6Z is over 130,000 miles. And it still feels new. I certainly have had some issues along the way. With a set of Koni shocks and PS SS and 4S non EMT tires, the car is just soooo engaging to drive. With MUCH more traction overall. This video just reinforces my desire to keep it for forever. I don't need anything faster or better handling. I can still do 500-600 mile trips (with a week's worth of luggage for 2), get about 30 mpg doing 75-85, and not feel crippled getting out of the car. I fill up, walk around a bit and in 15 min, I'm ready for the next 600 miles. To paraphrase Ferris Bueller, 'if one has the means, it's choice...I recommend picking one up..' Or something like that...
I also own a 2013 C6Z and I have also said I will never sell this car. Absolutely love this car.
@ So I have owned a 1996 LT4 car, now a 2000 hardtop 6MT with Z51 suspension, and would love to upgrade to a C6 GS. Does the C6 still feel like a raw go-kart like the C5 or do you lose some feeling with the refinement? I'm wondering if I would enjoy a C6 or not, the C5 is literally a go-kart for adults. The interior is....horrible, though. I would love an upgrade honestly. Would love to know your thoughts.
@ My Z06 /w 4S non EMTs /w Koni Sport shocks has a terrific ride quality considering how stiff the springs are. Rough road behavior, steering linearity were greatly improved. Including a stronger sense of on center feel. IMO, I never feel being beaten up unless the road is a terrible tertiary type.
whew! 130k miles is crazy high for a vette, especially a Z06. My 08 Z, for example, has about 30k. That's cool that you actually drive it though. I definitely drive mine but since I work from home and also have another car, I can keep the miles off it. But to echo your sentiment, I do plan to keep this thing until they quit selling gasoline!
@@Sandy-oy2lr - I have an 07 Z with 160K - motor rebuilt about 60K ago. It needing another refresh on trans/suspension. I just need to keep the freak’n dentist out of my mouth! Somehow the Wyatt Earp quote from Doc Holliday asking Wyatt Earp “how are your teeth and they cannot be replaced” somehow seems relevant when you have toys that you’re wanting to freshen, but you’re dropping your “toy” budget on keeping teeth in you’re head. Welcome to your 60’s.
C6 Z was really ahead of it's time, i remember video's of street races where heavily modded 4th gen Fbodies and 03/04 Cobra's were roll racing stock C6 Z's, and losing.
I have an LS3 Fbody and a C6 Z06, You´re not lying the C6 Z06 /ZR1 are roll racing WEAPONS
That was one of the better done videos I’ve seen in a while.
As he correctly points out once you match up modern tires these gaps almost disappear.
The fact that even on the old tires from 15 years ago the C6 was within a couple percent is amazing on its own.
I’m waiting for the channel that takes a lot of these older cars over the last 20 years put them on Cup 2 R’s and we get to see a modern day head to comparison.
We'd love to be that channel from your last comment! Hopefully we can keep growing to be able to rationalize a cool test like that.
@@GridForgeMFG I subscribed and really hope you're able to do that. I have a fair amount of experience with sorts cars dating back from 70's BMWs with round taillights and for sure, tires have come a really long way since then. Also a couple Vettes and now on mt second Cayman so I'm not overly brand loyal. Anything that goes fairly fast will do but cornering is were I really feel what the car is capable of. Thanks for your "nerdy" video!
@ your channel is gonna do great. When you’re opening up a content like that with only 2000 subscribers, you’ll be in 100,000 in a couple months.
So if you keep on producing smart content like that video, something I doubt most people even thought about which is the entire compound difference , is the kind of content that’ll push you towards the top.
I am subscribed, and I’ll be around and I look forward to what you have coming up . Keep up the good work buddy
C6 Z06 is King
“Biased C6 Z06 owner”
Lb for Lb it cant be beat.
Timeless design
Impeccable sound
Cheap to modify
15k -20k in suspension, tires, aero, and bolt ons “fixing the heads”.
You have an absolute track weapon for less than 100k
I think that goes without saying for every sports car in general. 20K in a mercedes S class will make it a formidable track weapon.
@@THESLlCK Sure, but not even close to the same level as the Z.
@ I'd hope not I used a full size sedan as an example.
C6 Z owner. I second that thought. The car has character. It’s not perfect. But it is so much fun!!
Like Slick said, this applies to any car. Hell, I have $10k into my Lotus at a PP of $26k and it'll embarrass just about any car it comes across, including most C6Zs. You can make any old car perform better than a new car for less than the cost of a new car.
Two sides to this: First, older cars with newer tires and suspension components are much better, cut and dry. The same can be said for cars with upgraded ECU tunes, exhaust mods, and numerous other performance modifications. Anything that reduces weight, and improves acceleration and braking matters. Car companies need to stop engineering a car at some point or they'd never go to production. Second, newer cars have to meet stricter safety and emissions standards, and both tend to add weight. A great video about this is Porsche talking about the differences between the new 992.2 GT3 and the 992.1 GT3, while on paper you would think they did nothing to the new car other than cosmetic changes but there are dozens of changes made to keep the GT3 compliant with current regulations.
Using the GT3 as an example defeats your own argument because the new GT3 weighs the same as the older one. The C8 is 500lbs heavier than the C6 because GM wanted it to feel like a fast luxury car, more tech, more comfort, more performance, it's not like the C6 doesn't have any safety equipment so the main difference now is all the added amenities.
@@BRAINFxck10 Have you watched the interviews with AP and his engineers? If I have the numbers correct the new requirements added about 40 lbs to the GT3 from the 992.1 to the 992.2, they had to work hard to remove weight back out of the car. Also, you can get a C8 1LZ that doesn't have as much luxury and technology and it's still heavier than the c6, so luxury features and technology aren't the whole story. Of course, size matters, and the C8 is a bigger and heavier car, partly to address front and side impact safety standards.
Excuses
Most of this is new tire technology, much like golf clubs can’t get much better in head technology, the gains are now in the shafts. Remarkable gains. They can get more ball speed and spin off the tee etc. same with cars. Tire companies now work hand in hand with the manufacturers to get a combo that’s faster in the new model. It’s almost a sleight of hands to the consumer
That’s what she said. Shaft gains
Nice thing about the C6Z, a cam swap will make up for the little extra horses. Oh and you arent violating any warranty. Long live the C6 !
This was a really well-conceived and well-executed video!
That said, I do want to share my experience with anyone thinking about buying a lightly used C6Z (or any older car) for performance use. Hearing something go pop at 130 MPH affects one's purchasing decisions. The reality of owning and maintaining a car that's nearly two decades old is not always pretty. I found getting quality repairs performed at my local GM dealer or performance shop to be a challenge. I also found a lot of non-performance related components required replacement after 14 years of heat cycles. Everything got brittle, so just checking the air filter could result in something crumbling. Many of those parts were out of production, so purchasing from a salvage dealer often cost more than new: sometimes three times as much!
I did ALL of the maintenance on my C6Z (e.g., oil, trans fluid, rear diff fluid, etc.), but I drew the line when a prob exceeded my skills or tools. I ended up with a rear main seal leak that cost $2K at a well-regarded local performance shop and another $600 to get the GM dealer to fix what the performance shop broke (wrapped e-brake line around exhaust causing extensive melting). I then spent 2 hours under the car to fix what the dealer screwed up (failed to re-tighten the exhaust). In the end, I didn't trust the work of the dealer or the performance shop enough to run the car hard, so I sold it.
I now have a C8 Stingray. Night and day diff in quality, fit, and finish that is largely due to the fact that it's new. From a performance perspective, the C8 is as much of a beast 0-60 as the C6Z was 60-130. Both are great cars in their own unique ways. The point is, actually owning these cars is very different from comparing them on paper or even on a track.
Driving them is also VERY different. Getting a decent launch out of a C6Z requires feathering the throttle, slipping the clutch, and performing a perfect 1-2 powershift all while fighting a rear end that wants to boogie... sideways. ALL THOSE STEPS IN 3.6 SECONDS! My C6Z taught me to just smile when someone suggests a manual trans, the C8 eLSD 5.2 final drive ratio, and street tires are a good combo.
Whatever you buy, do your research on the Internet, but be sure to actually drive the car and talk to the people who own them before spending your hard-earned dollars.
Very good points.
"be sure to actually drive the car and talk to the people who own them before spending your hard-earned dollars"
well said, I bought my C6Z before I knew about the LS7 problems but I got mine fixed before I tracked it. It was low miles so the heads were in great shape but I wasn't taking the chance of blowing my motor. I agree that old cars have their problems, I would love a C8Z06 or C8ZR1, those are monsters as well. But for now I am content with the C6Z. I am still scared to track it too much, mostly since my skills aren't developed enough to push the car too much. I will get there though
Excellent and very interesting video, with an emphasis on honesty and pragmatism. I owned a C6 Z06 for 11 years, trading it on a C7 Z06, which I never bonded with. Truly a scary vehicle, and the last gasp of front engine/RWD Corvettes. I now have a '24 C8 Z51, and I find your observations spot on. The C6 Z06 was a purposeful car, with fanatical attention to weight reduction. Totally successful implementation of design! The C7 Z06 is just a gussied-up C6 Z06, with a hair dryer slapped on it to compensate for the added 400 lbs. of crap. I didn't really like it, and kept it only 2 years. The C8 is finally a different animal, as the C5, C6, and C7 (owned them all) felt very similar and evolutionary. The C8 is revolutionary due to the mid-engine 40/60 weight distribution. Turn-in, exit, launch, ride quality in my C8 are superior to anything I've owned. Stable, predictable, confidence inspiring. Best Corvette yet. The launch is insane, and I've seen 2.7-seconds 0-60. F1 and Indy cars don't have manuals for the same reason. You couldn't launch a C8, shift to 2nd, and then shift to 3rd before 60 mph with a stick in under 3 seconds. I sure couldn't, and as an old drag racer and professional drummer, I don't have the chops to do it. My previous 4 Corvettes, all traction limited, hit 60 in 1st gear; way too tall gearing, but necessary due to traction. Like none at all. The C8 (and my AWD 2.0L turbo GLA 45 AMG) launch like a kernel of popcorn exploding off the hot pan. I don't care much that my C8 isn't especially quick after 60 mph because on the street and the drag strip, launch is only everything.
In my opinion, the C6 Z06 is, overall, the best front engine/RWD Corvette ever made. And in most categories, the C8 Z51 bests it, despite a far worse lb/hp ratio.
One other comment concerning the C8Z at Nurburgring: I think it turned in that disappointing time on a crowded track. OTOH, the new Mustang GTD got under 7:00 all alone out there. Thanks again for one of the best car videos, ever. SRSLY.
I'm pretty sure the track was closed for the C8Z test but they had very little time with the car and only got a few laps in. Weather was not ideal either.
Thanks for the well-informed perspective!
Keeping my Atomic Orange Z06! Awesome info, thanks for video, cheers from Canada :-)
The c8 z06's gearing holds it back on the ring. It has 3 od gears, which is a serious hindrance when enduring the dramatic elevation changes and challenges at the ring
Seriously, 5th-8th are all far too tall. The Z06 doesnt have the torque, power or aero to push through long gearing at high speeds. They shouldve just used 7th & 8th for od.
But based on my math, comparing C&D's highly-standardized VIR times to the Ring.. The C8Z should be capable of a 6:48-6:53, C7 ZR1 should do 6:49-6:54, and the C7 Z07 would be 7:00-7:05. (With ideal laps, ideal conditions, a local driver etc).
I cant account for tall gearing/poor performance on the straight away though. But the Viper ACR did 7:01 with a rushed attempt, poor conditions, private team & backup driver new to the car.
Yet the Vettes have a MUCH lower drag cd (.38-39 vs .54). And higher skidpad grip
C7 ZR1 ztk 1.19-1.22g (2nd best on earth)
C7 Z07 1.20g
C8 Z07 1.16g (GM claims 1.22g with proper tire PSI)
ACR 1.15g
So I think the C7's & C8's could do much better than expected.
Heres the math I did recently comparing 'Ring times to VIR 'Lightning Lap' times. (aka America's 'Ring), a high-speed, technical, 3.3mi track. Also Car&Driver does highly standardized testing, w/ several sets of tires, factory support, etc. (300+ cars, over 17yrs)
But I broke down the VIR & 'Ring times into seconds.. & divided them for multiple cars. And the top cars match up on each track. Each of these car's 'Ring times = x2.55-2.61 their VIR time. (Math is at the bottom)
Times: V.I.R./Nurburgring
AMG GT Black 2;37 / 6;43.6 (x2.57)
992 GT3RS 2;37.2 / 6;44.8 (x2.575)
C8 Z07 2;38.6 /
C7 zr1 (7mt) 2;39.5 /
992 GT3 2;40.6 / 6;55.3 (x2.585)
991.2 GT3rs 2;41.6 / 6;56.4 (x2.576)
918 Spyder 2;43.1 / 6;57 (x2.556)
Viper ACRx 2;44.2 / 7;01 (2.563)
C7 Z07 2;44.6 / 7;10 (x2.612)
2012 Zr1 2;50.7 / 7;19 (x2.57)
(Here's the likely times based on the mulitples listed above).
-C8 Z07 VIR 2;38.6
x2.61 (6;53.9)
x2.595 (6;51.5)
x2.585 (6;50)**
x2.575. (6;48.4)*
x2.57. (6;47.6)
x2.563. (6;46.5)
x2.556. (6;45.38)
-C7 ZR1 ZTK 7mt VIR 2;39.5
x2.61 (6;56.3)
x2.595. (6;53.9)
x2.585 (6;52.3)**
x2.575 (6;50.7)*
x2.57 (6;49.9)
x2.563 (6;48.8)
x2.556 (6;47.6)
So considering Vette's wild VIR performance.. And the other cars they destroyed there (458, 488gtb, Ford GT, Huracan Perf, Evo, Technica, 650s, 720s, 600LT, amg gtr, Viper ACR, 918s, Manthey GT3's & more).. The C7 ZR1 should do 6:49-6:54, and C8 Z07 should do a 6:47-6:52.
Math example: 2012 ZR1 on cup tires did a 7;19 (439 seconds).. and a 2;50.7 (170.7 sec) @ VIR.
So 439sec ÷ 170.7sec = a multiple of (x2.57).
Agree, I enjoyed this video but he stated all the reasons why new cars have an advantage but failed to mentioned where they’re disadvantaged. Emission regs screwed the gearing and safety increased weight.
Imagine a c8 with optimised gearing where 7th or 8th hit its peak speed. Youed see an increase of 80-100 hp between shift points compared to 5th gear now. Average hp between shift points is the key figure to acceleration.
Dude i love this data and performance talk. This is a great platform.
Right up my alley!
Thanks!
The C6 Z06 is truly impressive. When it came out it was race car technology on the small block engine front. Still impressive to drive today. If anyone hasn’t experienced it, I highly recommend it. I love my C7 ZO6/Zo7 7M but I have a tremendous fondness for the C6Z.
Very smart comparison. Loved the video. Really makes the c6 price tag today worth it. It’s not cheap.
I think we need some track times with the C6Z with cup 2 R tires. Tire tech has come a long way in 20 years. We need to be comparing the cars capability to each other and the only way is with the same tires.
Imagine having an old C6Z having a old C6Z being faster or relatively close time at the ring of the new C8 Z06...
Great, informative presentation. Thank you for posting. Purchased my 2008 C6 Z06 new off the showroom floor. LG Motorsports performed the cam, stainless headers, K&N air filter install and dyno tune. Oversized 345/30 ZR19 rears on Forgeline wheels shed about 60 lbs in total and eliminated the awful heat radiating into the cabin from the oem cast iron exhaust manifold. It prefers ethanol free premium, has been reliable, easy, low cost to maintain and still gets attention. Could be the best generation Z06 ever.
Hell yeah! I'm so happy to hear that!
This information is amazing. Thank you for putting all of this together. I wish you great on all of your endeavors. Great channel.
Thank you so much! I appreciate the support.
This is the kind of content I love to watch. Thank you for nerding out
Thanks for enjoying it!
My choice today would fine a cherry low mileage C6 Grand Sport. with 6 speed. Same car with the super reliable LS3. 430 beans is still enough, and with a few external mods is about perfect. Thanks for this neat video.
Had a 12’ cyber grey grand sport. Beautiful car with the wide body and plenty of beans as you mention!
@@DaleWalkerHoleshot This is precisely the car I'm targeting. Not as sexy or delicate as the Z06, but more durable. I'm fine with the tradeoff and the pricing difference. I want something I can pound and never worry about.
Dale, I totally agree with you. C6 GS is the sweet spot to me. I own a 2003 C5 50th Anniversary convertible and I’m keeping it. But if I were in the market to go a little newer, the C6 GS would be my choice. It looks great too!
Yes and no dropped valves along the way.....I love my 2013 yellow GS MT!
The C6 Z06 looks like a real Corvette and so much better than a C8!
Thats one heck of a way to come out of the closet! im proud of you!
I had a c5Z with over 1000 HP and one of my clients got a brand new c6z. We raced,he lost and then spent all kinds of money to catch up only to lose again with his head/cam setup but he won with that beautifully updated generation of a Corvette. I wanted his car bad but had to much invested into mine. Good times.
This type of video has to be a nightmare for an automotive marketing team lol good analysis though, i love videos like these that show love to great cars, old and new
C8 nor C9 will never match C6Z light weight format. The C6Z can take advantage of today's superior tire performance BUT the C8Z can never lose 600lbs
c8z might be suffering from higher downforce/drag in the long straight at the ring
From winning Le mans, to ripping on drag strips, circuits, and even drifting the C6 Z06 is perhaps one of the GREATEST CARS EVER MADE, yes I said cars, the c6 z06 still relevant to this day,
The C6's outward beauty really shows in the high speed wind performance advantage. It looks a lot more slippery than the C8 and is in fact a lot more slippery through the air with a significantly better coefficient of drag.
C6 nekkid cD is .28, the C8 is .30. The C6 Z06 is .34. Not sure we can call that “significant?”
@ The numbers you quoted are not accurate. The base C8 published Cd is .32 with higher option models registering .35. The base C6 Cd was .28 with the Z06 coming in at .34. And yes, it IS significant because at 185-200 mph, wind resistance is increasing with the square of velocity.
@ Oh my goodness! You found different C8 numbers to help support your point. What a shocker. Your claim is as unsubstantiated as mine, so I’ll stick with my numbers and claim yours are incorrect due to your bias. Neener neener.
And using caps doesn’t prove significance. Math and science prove significance. Show us the math.
@@rapid13drag coefficient is not a good metric for what you 2 are discussing it only looks at one aspect of drag. Look up “drag area”
@ The only numbers that truly matter are the precise calculations run by GM in both designs which show significantly lower Cd for the older car which explains why a C6 has a 198mph top speed and the C8 is limited to 189 mph. This also explains the C8's Nurburgring disappointment as that track is considered a proving ground for top speed as well as handling.
I wonder what kind of power a fully updated version of the LS7 could generate. Probably more than enough power and torque to challenge the exotic DOHC, Flat Plane Crank engine found in the C8 Z06?
Didn't the C6 ZO6 have engine issues with valves?
Yes, they do. We have a video about that problem too!
I just sold my 2006 C6Z06 making 600 rwhp. I’m heart broken but I’ll get another.
U won't get another
@ I’ve had three. I’m sure I’ll get another one
@@secretsquirrel572 bet u won't
The reason that the C8 is slower above 100 is because the bean counters at Chevrolet won out over the engineering team and refused to provide each version of the C8 a version of the DCT that was optimized for its particular engine.
Lower top speeds of the newer versions is because they (particularly the cars whose data are used cited, which both had track packages equipped) have track - focused aerodynamics for higher downforce, which by design produces more drag to produce that downforce, which in turn reduces top speed.
This is not to take anything away from the C6 Z06, which was an amazing machine and still can turn wicked fast track numbers. There are some good videos of a French bodybuilder/enthusiast who turns very low seven minute BTG times in one at the Ring. That fanatical focus on weight reduction and the high revving naturally aspirated V8 just killed!
The gearing would help a little but the c8 is definitely not going to see a big difference as this has to do with power to weight. C8 has such an advantage from a stop has to do with engine being over the rear wheels. No gearing in the c8 is gonna keep it close from a rolling speed
@ by “C8” I believe you mean “C8 Stingray”. Gearing can and does help at any speed. That’s why quarter-mile racers for years have been using shorter rear ends and prefer close - ratio gear sets, which is not what is present in the C8. Weight doesn’t make that much of a difference above 100 mph, because at that speed drag force is what comes into play. Drag force increases with the square of the velocity, so it very quickly over comes lighter weight advantages. The key is the force pushing the vehicle at the wheels, and gears are a force multiplier. And here the C8 is at a loss… Coupled with its higher - downforce aerodynamics, it loses ground above 100.
So from 60-100, the C8 Stingray is 0.4 slower. From 60-150, it’s 2.8 slower. The bulk of it, 2.4 sec, comes over 100, at which time drag from the aero and too-high gearing come into play. So it would definitely be much tighter if not for the bean counters.
But the C6 Z06 definitely is helped by its weight advantage, no doubt about that. That beast was an engineering marvel. Big fan here! Just disappointed the bean counters won out and left performance on the table w/the C8’s.
Wow! Great video. When choosing tires, what do you suppose would be a decent high-performance street & track tire that won't break the bank? I drive a C6 with MRC, a 6MT, and I replaced the OEM drilled rotors with 2 piece slotted rotors that have the cooling vanes actually correct. The Corvette group I run around with has mostly C8s. When we go somewhere I never have any problem keeping up. Our fastest driver drives a C7, and he's fast because he's had a lot of track time & corresponding high-speed driving training. I've mentioned tracking my car to others and they always ask if I have a Z06, commenting "why bother" with a base model C6, but as near as I can tell, I have more car than I could ever drive effectively. I find the weakest leak in the car, besides the tires, is the transmission. Maybe I've got a dud, but it doesn't allow for quick shifting, needing to be very warm, & even then, needing to be careful to avoid gear grinding.
RT660's have been popular in the groups i run with, but they are fairly aggressive.
And definitely track it! you do not need a Z06 to have fun on track.
Nice shop buddy. Thanks for the info over drama approach.
I think you could "massage" those C6 #'s a bit with stickier tires, lowering springs, tuning to get 700 hp. I'd love to see a C6 with those mods go up against C8 ZO6. I bet that it's also more fun to drive
This is an exceptional viewpoint that I've been opining on for a few years. Tire technology has been the most significant driver of faster lap times with traction control advances coming in a distant second. I was proud to finally see someone make this point when the CGT came out with updated NBRG time. Power to weight ratio and grip layout a cars capabilities quite well and the C6Z will always be world class when it comes to those. I have found Gen 2 Vipers to be even more so with updated rubber and suspension. Extremely capable cars and my favorite to this day. Great analysis!
Those vipers are a great point!
C6 is my fav gen 😊
15 year difference in tires is HUGE. NO ONE today tracks on 2 year old tires
I heard someone mention the likely culprit for the C8 platform is a particularly tall 5th gear. Once you hit that 5th gear, especially on the 'Ring, the revs drop and it can't accelerate very quickly in that gear. I think 6-8 are all OD gears on the C8. This could be why road course laptimes suffer on some tracks. Will be interesting to see if the C8 ZR1 can power through this with its turbos.
5th gear is really only a “problem” at its upper range close to redline. Otherwise, the Z06 and LT6 are both still pulling hard in 5th. What happened on the ring during the Z06’s lap wasn’t down to gearing, but rather merely a sloppy lap done by Sport Auto, they were using automatic mode for the DCT, the tires were still cold, and the driver, Christian, was driving the car in a noticeably timid fashion.
Compare this to Misha Charoudin, who made mention of the longer gears only once during his actual tracking of the car, and adjusted accordingly, keeping the transmission in the optimal meat of the Z06’s power band, which means that the car’s revs need to be kept high.
Watch any lap set by a Z06, especially on longer tracks like VIR, and COTA, and you’ll see that 5th gear isn’t really an issue. The ZR1 of course won’t have an issue at all, as has already been shown multiple times. It hits its top speed of 233 mph in 6th gear, so it’ll be pulling hard all throughout gears 1-6.
Its the same with the 6th gen zl1 , and c7 z06, and the 3rd gen ctsv EVERYONE knows about there absurdly tall 5th gear this isnt news at all
@@tylercouture216same with the Camaro SS 1LE. My car just falls flat once I shift to 5th :(
@maziyarebrahimi997 correct forgot to mention that one as well it's a GM thing they always do weird things its literally apart of their brand to have icks
@@danieldickerson4838 : Both the C8 Z06 and Z51 Stingray use the same Tremec 9080 transmission, so the gear ratios are the same. There are some internal differences, but none are ratio related. For example, the ring and pinion ratios are also the same (3.55:1). Only the transfer gear ratios differ, but not enough to account for the hard pull you mentioned.
Excellent video - I have a c6 z with over 600 rear wheel hp and I know I can over take the new z06 except at the initial launch due to dual clutch transmission. This is by far the best comparison video I've seen on the cars.
I think the new C8 just has better launch control. DCT doesn't help except for acceleration loss during shifts. Also shift times help on the track but not in your example. Gearing efficiency matters to, but that is less a characteristic of the DCT and more a reflection of what numbers Chevy wanted to hit in all performance metrics.
As a C6 Z06 owner, I really appreciate the comparison.
Now let's do a comparison with the C7 ZO6. Just curious.
Heavy. Slower.
@@Nick-gg6tgWrong, as far as straight line, the C7Z is a tie for 1/4 miles and and faster than the C8Z.
On track it depends on the track. Tighter tracks favor the C8’s but tracks with more straight line runs favor the C7Z.
@@Nick-gg6tg Nürburgring time of 7:36 for the c6 and 7:14 for the c7
@@Nick-gg6tg 7:10 for the c8.. yeah they were all but hurt about it thinking it was gonna lay down sub 7's
C7 Z is the best bang for the buck. I own one and I love it. Its fast and rowdy that gives you chills evety time you push the throttle. It numbers are close to C8 Z and sometimes even better. With a little mods you can unleash a beast that has no match.
Good analysis, can you do this with the C7?
I would like for a privateer to take a C7 ZR1 on the best tires today and see what it can do at the RING. I would bet my paycheck it would be a sub 7 minute time under optimum conditions. The C8 ZO6 is also crippled by gearing and neither the C7 and C8 don't have active aero.
Another thing because I was once a corvette c7 owner: chassi stiffness is much more improved and the weight of the car also increased with more forging. So that can be also a factor in even if tires are better nowadays.
My 04 C5 has 455 NA RWHP with a 4:10 rear axle ratio, full Bilstein treatment, bigger bars, Lowered, and so much more to make it like a high powered go kart both on the street and track. The Toyo R88R's hook so well. Important that I swapped out the stock seats for Corbeau racing seats cause it is near impossible to take corners at the track without being pinned against the door panel without them! OH, no mention of the brakes or clutch in the video. Hawk racing pads and a Monster 800hp clutch were a must and really work so well. Just a really fun car on the street and the track, and all for a heck of lot less cash. Older Vettes can still git r dun!!
Good point about the repave of VIR. One thing I’ll point out about lightning lap times is they use different drivers for each car meaning in their day of testing they use multiple drivers which is ridiculous and leads to inconsistency with lap times as you just saw.
Great point. I should've mentioned!
I’ve been an auto enthusiast for decades first time I’m seeing a video from you and this is fantastic
Thank you for watching! Glad you enjoyed.
I’m finishing up a 730hp 69 camaro to mimic a previous 625hp 67 camaro I used to drag race and road race, just changing shock settings and wheel/tire combo. I’ve owned a 600hp C5 Z06 and with a big brake kit it was a phenomenal track car, though slower in the 1/2 mile and 1/4 mile then my 950hp 17 ZL1.
I’ve gotten old enough to not miss the manual trans thing and the 17 ZL1 auto trans was awesome. Although I’d love to own a C6 ZR1 I cannot drive the manual trans well at the qtr mile so the th400 with a gv will have to do in the 69 camaro for all venues as it did previously in the 67, as well as my processing skills have slowed enough that I don’t need the fastest thing on a track. Straight line is a whole nother matter though.
Other then the 69 camaro the C6 ZR1 is my favorite hotrod!
Thanks for sharing, as a c8 z51 owner, I must say I dont know why stock front is only 245 like econ car. This car should come with 275 front and can easily fit 305
Likely for improved steering feel. All the European exotics use narrow tires for that reason. I think the 458 has 245 fronts
Really good breakdown. Thank you RUclips algorithm!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
C2-C7 were front mid-engine design. All thanks to Duntov wanting a sports car over a roadster which was the C1. Since couldn't get the rear mid-engine layout done back then. He opted front mid-engine for better handle dynamics. When GM decided to move the transmission behind the cockpit in the C5. It gave the Corvette exceptional front to rear weight distribution. Culminating in the C7 having a 50/50 weight distribution bias. Also C6 Z06 had an aluminum and magnesium chassis for weight savings. C6 ZR1 had a completely aluminum chassis. People will often associate the term mid-engine as rear engine bias but that's not the case. Both front and rear mid-engine cars have existed from some time. Other examples of front mid-engine cars are the Vipers, Mercedes SLR and Austin Martin's to name a few. Mid-engine is just engine placement behind front suspension(axle) or in front of rear suspension(axle) as close as possible to the center of the car.
I always wondered what would happen between these two. The C6 will remain timeless it’s like wrestling an alligator out of every corner and I love that feeling 🏎️🐊
I've always been curious about the fourth gen Camaros and Firebird ws6 cars if given modern tires and a chance for a lap of the Nurburgring. When those cars were coming out the track was just getting popularized as the handling benchmark. I know it wouldn't break records but I think these cars handle better than they have a reputation for.
Great video Mike, love your content! As a car loving professional, you opinion is considered the golden standard in the community!
Thank you Nolen! I appreciate the kind words!
Great video and super interesting seeing the percentages broken down. Also, shoutout to gridforge for the key tray for my M5!
Would have liked to see C7 and C7Z06 numbers in this video. Otherwise this is very interesting. C6Z was a beast with that 427!
I’ve raced my friends c8z in my c7z, from a dig he gets me but roll racing I’ve got him by a few car lengths. Handling, I’d say my car points in the turn a lot quicker, it’s 50/50 weight. The c8 is 40/60 which still handles well but the front end doesn’t inspire much confidence during high speeds and understeers a bit and feels a bit sketchy
Agree with other comments ... one of the better (performance) comparison videos: one (key) factor was obviously missing in this comparison, however: the difference between paddle-shift only cars and, for this example, a C6 T56 6-speed manual decreases performance as much (or very close) to older tech tires and the some of the new Track-Focused tires available now. I look forward to watching your other videos.
would love to see how the ERay fits in with those. great job!
I like driving my C6 GS over the C8, on the street and on the track and yes I track it 2 times a month / and some auto X ..
There is another factor just as important as the tires, perhaps more; driver skill. As a regular track day participant, I often see good drivers in cars with half the horsepower of their track mates not just beat them but lap them. It's sad how poor most drivers are!
Would love to see you bring in 3 more often overlooked Corvettes and get them tested on modern rubber. The 1990 ZR1, 1996 Grand Sport with the LT4, and then an 02-04 Z06. To this day, my 2002 Z was my favourite drivers car, even more so than my C6 Z was. The C6 was almost "too much" for me. That being said, i finally rented a C8 and that'll be the next toy. I loved it.
Cool perspective on performance and how far tires have come.
As a c6 owner I think I is a great video
I know one thing. The C6 Z06 driven by ranger consistently ran into the high 10's with dr's! And why is the C6 ZR1 ls9 not mentioned???
Cause they are afraid of the LS9.
Didn't think anyone remembered Ranger.
@@92rednotch Who can forget Mr. 11's in a stock C5 Z!
I'm digging my man's logic. Subbed, sir.
Appreciate that! Glad you liked the video!
Thank you for the concise review. I guess the obvious question is how the C7 with the ZTK package compares?
Getting this note from several people. You are all right, I should've added that in!
I think we should also consider the gearing between the cars as well. Gearing has a ton to do with track times and top speeds.
The C6 was only 3,130 lbs. it's lighter than both of the newer cars by a lot!
Take out the C6 Z06 3.42 rear end gear and put in a 4.11. Top speed drops to 180, but off the line is much better
3.90 is more ideal. It doesnt need 4.11s.
Interesting vid. Perhaps gearing and certainly the instant shifting of the C8 transmission compared to a C6 manual stick, would explain the faster acceleration times below 150 mph of the C8. The lack of a manual trans in the C8 is a deal breaker for me, I may be slower shifting myself, but it's pure pleasure driving my manual C6 Z.
The C8 ZO6 can run a sub 7 sec lap time. You might want to watch Misha Charoudins review of the German magazine/driver who ran that 7.10 time:)
I always said that the front engine chassis had more potential, that they just did not want to pursue. Especially with newer tire tech.
Good video 📹 curious about c7 comparison too
Brought to Ad free by Michelin Tire North America.. LOL I'm kidding. My wife works at Michelin and we are a Michelin tire family of course, its all I run.
Who else price checked C6 Z06s after watching this?
At speed… above 120mph. The doesn’t happen much… even on a track. The C6 Z06 is crazy fast but not nearly as fast as the C8 Z06. The C8Z51 is nearly as fast on a track and that’s the plain Jane Vet. This video is trying too hard.
I would still say the Viper was the most powerful NA car. Even though it had less peak HP, it had a lot more torque and low-end power than the flat plane Z06
I like that argument cuz that V10 is barely breaking a sweat just imagine with a Calvo billet block boosted and built to the max it can hold over 4,000HP so the stock power is super light work for that engine
Makes me want a C6 again. It also looks better and can be tuned easily. It was a better overall engineered car in my opinion. I owned a 2007 ZO6 I should never have sold it.
You could also lower the C6 to improve cornering a little. It was a heck of a car
You said it best when conveying that not having a manual transmission in the C8 Z06 is troubling at best. Other manufacturers have seen and understand the importance of offering a manual transmission. Even though the DCT is a mechanical marvel it doesn't give the driver the true control over the car equipped with a manual. If the DCT was equipped with a simulated clutch and shifter, as in the Koenigsegg, it would be an option that true car enthusiasts would embrace, but an authentic 6 or 7-speed manual needs to be offered for the C8 Z06. If only GM would reconsider!? As for the differences in time and speed from the C6 ZO6 through the variations of the C8 is all due to the C6 not able to put the power down and that's because the C8 is equipped with a mid-engine rear-engine setup whereas, the C6 ZO6 has a mid-engine front-engine setup. The one thing that needs to be noted, is the delay in which the C8 Z51 finally arrives at 150 mph and that has been expressed by C8 owners where it doesn't have that "pull" that you generally feel in a high torque engine but it is also attributed to the gearing in the C8. If the C8 Z06 did come with a manual transmission I would be driving one today, but I will have to be content with my modified C5 Z06 and that includes tires, and the only complaint I have is not being able to access the Nurburgring by way of the Autobahn ¿`_
Have owned c6, c6z06, c7z51, c8z51. I loved them all but the c6z06 was my fav.
The only thing I feel that wasn't discussed is the relative approachability to the limit of the C6 Z06 vs the newer C8/C8Z. While an advanced driver can put down VERY competitive lap times to the newer machines, the average driver will have a much greater delta in lap times due to the advances in chassis refinement of the newer platform.
Another vote for the content here, really cool video.And not just because I'm a LS7 fan! Subscribed for more.
The comparisons of top speed had me wondering - is the top speed of the C8 Z06 limited by aero, or gearing? Is it at redline at 189, or can it not overcome the downforce?
The acceleration times suggest the difference lies in aerodynamics. The acceleration difference at low speeds shows that the C8 has more than enough power to overcome its weight challenge. But as speeds increase above 130 mph, the acceleration comparison starts to flip. This situation is easily explained by the underlying math - aerodynamic drag increases with the square of velocity (non-linear or "exponential" change).
On the VIR comparison, I don't think it's just the repaving but also that car was on the Eagle F1 runflats which were awful tires.
C6Z is a Great car in need of a head that won't grenade the engine and cost you 20k.
Man, I shouldn’t have sold my 2008 atomic orange 🍊 Z06! Had for 10 years- and the manual was messing my left knee up after years of jumping out of airplanes!
Great video! But I'm prejudiced...have a C6Z. Having said that, I've played tag with a semi pro driven C8 Z51 and yes...my C6Z has the legs. I think the result would have been different at a tighter track
The CGT re-lap was definitely eye opening.
The issue I see is that the tracks you compared are fairly high-speed tracks. The mid- rear engine layout of the C8 will show it's benefit on a much more technical track.
Good point. Another thing I thought of (after posting this) would be to look at SCCA Solo Nationals times for AutoX. Tires are controlled w/ classes and would've showed interesting low speed data.
@@GridForgeMFG Sounds like you have a follow up video to get working on then. 🤣
This is just like looking at performance times from the 1960s and then realizing they did it on those stone-age tires.
Would it make a difference if you could put the stickier tires of today on the C6 ? I would think at least a little
Oh yeah. The 07 Z06 was on terrible Goodyears. 275/325 18/19"s. But the 2012's have 285/335 19/20" ps2's or Cup "1's".
And then even going with modern PS4s' would be a huge improvement in wet & dry. Not to mention Cup2 R's
phenomenal video
A heads cam intake C6 Z06 Wayne just over 3000 pounds with 600+ rear wheel horsepower will absolutely outrun a c8 z06 from a roll convincing coil covers and sticky tires and a competent driver and the C6 Z I believe we also outshine a c8 z06 on a road course
New cars are better at being consistent and easier to drive for most people. DCTs and advanced stability and traction control like PTM does wonders to mitigate skill gaps. The older cars require pro drivers and pro skills.
I love my c8 z06/z07 HTC. You really can't understand just how special it is until you actually drive it for a long time.
Where are you getting your Data? The C8 Base topped out at 194 MPH at the Nurenburg ring while the C8 Z06 at 210 MPH Straight line. Are you talkinglap time or overall top speed?
All the data we used was in-period testing data from Car and Driver.
Notice he didn’t compare the standard C6 version. But made sure to compare the base C8 model.
Makes the C6 look better by comparison but clearly it has a huge advantage over the C851. Again putting the standard C6 would highlight that. But wouldn’t get his results across as much as he wanted to
GREAT VIDEO, UPGRADE OLD CAR WITH MODERN TECHS AND YOU HAVE YOUR ASNWER.... GREAT VIDEO
It should be noted that the starting MSRP on both the C6 and C8 Z06 are about the same when adjusted for inflation. $75k in 2009 = $109k in 2024. Glad you mentioned that the C8 Z06 lap time at the Nurburgring is too slow. It should absolutely be able to take at least 8 seconds off under more ideal conditions.
Biggest difference in street car performance in the last 30 years are tire and turbocharging
the rest is minimal