Pastor: How Should Evangelicals and Mormons Talk?
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- What are some of the main ways Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals talk past one another? Pastor Jeff explores and provides some tips for interfaith dialogue.
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are Mormons Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this video, you might enjoy a video I made tracing the steps of Brigham Young in Utah: • Pastor REACTS: Latter-...
Chapters
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:52 - #1 Ongoing Revelation
00:03:13 - #2 Definition of Grace
00:07:09 - #3 Works Based Salvation
00:09:45 - #4 Gospel Sharing Methods
00:12:09 - #5 LDS Missionaries
00:15:16 - #6 Who Is Jesus?
00:17:05 - Advice for Both Faiths
#LatterDaySaints #LDS #interfaith 
Развлечения
What did I miss? What are some other ways Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals talk past one another?
Through malice, or ignorance, misarticulating the beliefs and practices of the other side of our ideological divide.
I think you missed our different definitions of salvation. I was a little confused by how you distinguished our definitions of grace, and maybe we are still talking past each other. I think our definitions of grace are extremely similar as a mechanism towards salvation, but only different because of how we define salvation.
Alma 40:11 teaches that all men, whether good or evil, are first (before judgement) taken home to that God who gave them life.
So, like you, we also believe that there will be a time where we will (all) be where God is. Chapters 40-43 are important chapters in understanding judgement and restoration of the soul: that which is righteous will have righteousness restored to him, that which is evil will have evil restored unto him. This parallels what has been recently taught about the degrees of glory and how we will obtain a kingdom of glory to which we will feel comfortable abiding by its laws.
Overall, very well-done video!
I think your points about our differences with ongoing revelation were mostly good, but you seem to imply that Latter Day Saints choose to ignore the Bible to a degree because our ongoing revelation allowed us to do so. I think you should have emphasized that Latter-Day Saints simply interpret the Bible differently due to our ongoing revelation. If you point to Bible, we agree with you that it is the word of God, we just interpret it differently. We don’t think of the Bible as a minefield of potential lies due to “translation error.”
Also if somebody responds “you missed everything,” one more time, I am going to lose my mind!!! Show some class guys
On a funny side note, my wife and I ran our sister missionaries through the full range of anti-church propaganda lol. We were ridiculous but they eventually won us over with their patience and humor. We eventually were converted. :)
Yay! Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Love and Patience must have helped win you over too!😊
Yay! ❤
What's interesting to me is that what used to be seen as propaganda is now actually published on the church's website admitting it as true church history. Things such as multiple first visions, using a seer stone that he also used for treasure diggers, lawsuits he was in related to treasure digging, the Adam-God theory by Brigham young, Joseph Smith taking almost 40 wives including a 14 yr old... Most of these things and more were hidden from the church members for a long time until the internet made it impossible. Maybe you are okay with the church now acting like they never hid things or acting okay with things that are very awful, but it's not really fair to call it anti-mormon propaganda. Most information presented against the church now are just things that we can read directly from the church's website. Jesus Christ is true and I totally agree that we should not go at each other with arguments. But it does get frustrating to hear language of the church uses against anyone who presents actual facts of the church's history. I'm not attacking you in particular but I know that calling it anti-mormon propaganda is the language things like Ward radio will use to make people feel like they should avoid anyone who has a different opinion or actually presents the true history of the elders church and has a problem with it. I'm okay with people having different opinions, but let's be honest about the history. But the absolute biggest concern I have is the fact that the church relies on more than just Christ Alone to be justified before god. I know they believe in a Universalist type salvation but that only gets you to the lowest level of Heaven that you're not actually with God. That's pretty much hell. It should concern us all that practices like the ones done in the temple are supposed to be the way you get to Heavenly Father, yet they are secretive and originally it was told to not even tell anyone what was happening in there. If you look at all of Christian history, we have no records to believe that any Orthodox Christian practice included things like this. The only thing that could kind of be equivalent would be what happened in the holies of holies with the high priest. But Jesus was our final high priest in the temple curtain was torn for the very reason that we no longer had to have anything done in secret because all who would truly put faith into Christ would be justified before God. God Bless you!
As a Latter Day Saint, that’s not quite how I view Grace or the Holy Ghost. Grace to me - that’s where God fills in every area where we are incomplete (which is everywhere.). We cannot and will not ever be complete in this life. You’re right that our works cannot and will not save us. Our works prove the sincerity of our discipleship but they don’t save us. We are lost without Christ and His atonement, no matter what works we do. That’s where His grace is essential, because by taking our sins upon Him, as we repent, He becomes our advocate with the Father. The Holy Ghost to me is how we know any truth at all. It’s the Holy Ghost’s job to bear witness of truth. The truth of God’s love and God’s grace also brings peace that only He can bring. But there’s a difference between having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and feeling it periodically. By making and keeping covenants, we believe we have a right to the constant companionship. Keeping covenants - works…are essential for that aspect.
And that is where evangelicals will depart as we believe since Jesus did it all perfectly and we are in him and his righteousness is ours then we have constant companionship with the holy Spirit without keeping additional ordinances to maintain a relationship based on God's great gift. If there's a requirement then it's not grace. Isn't that clear even in the natural world?
I can't help but wonder in myself if perhaps that constant companionship becomes like air.
So easy to take for granted and not think about until you don't have it?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 if there is no requirement then how can faith be proved?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 so was Abraham denied grace when he was required to offer up his son Isaac?
@@BrianTerrill A couple things. One, Abraham was not required to offer up Isaac. God asked him to and he obeyed, and he did so on the faith of knowing God would either provide another sacrifice or raise Isaac from the dead. Second, Abraham's salvation and eternal life was completely secured by grace through faith long before that actually took place.
As a former missionary I can tell you that a mission is some of the hardest work I have ever done. Not only did I have to learn a series of lessons, but I had to learn it in the Navajo language. Our dormatory in the far Southwest corner of the Missionary Training Center in Provo, UT was often refferd to as the Tower of Babel. It contained the most challenging languages. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Navajo, and others. When we finally got out to our mission areas, our goal was never to "sell" the church like door to door salesmen. We were looking for that one person, that one home where the spirit was ready to make itself known and bear witness to them that what we offered was true. It's not science were the holy grail is to be able to prove through imperical eveidence. It's faith where only you and God can speak to each other through the promptings of the spirit. Aguments are not a thing with us. Or at least they are not supposed to be. Contention and harsh words are of the devil. If they were unreceptive, the best thing we could do is to move on. Some of my companions were not aware of this. I had to explain to them that their enthusiasm, though comendable, was not always right. Better to move on and not leave a bad impression. I guess they invisioned their mission as an oportunity to put the smack down on the ignorant and blast them with the spirit causeing them to instantly convert. Alas, it was not to be. But I do know that if you can bring even one soul back to everlasting exaltation, so great will be your reward. You may be only one step in their path back, but every step is necessary.
That's wonderful. So doors that mean converts are not counted and there is no pressure from authorities to convert more people? I've heard some RMs talk about that dark side of their mission work with baptisms done before the convert really knows much about how the church operates and what will now be expected of them if they want to be on the path of eternal happiness.
That "one soul" could be and at least should be yourself.
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 It shouldn't be that way. There may be some overzealous district or zone leaders trying to push for numbers but I would never accept that kind of presure. And there is no way for them to enforce that type of unendorsed policy. It would be imediately rejected if it came to the attention of a mission president. We believe in the free agency of people to chose or reject the message. I never felt any pressure to generate meaningless baptisms.
There used to be a program on the Navajo resevation called the "Placement Program". At the time, the Navajo people had limited access to quality education for their children. So baptised children were assigned to live with member families in the surrounding communities with better schools in Arizona and Utah. However schools in the resrvation have improved and it is no longer an active program. But the program resulted in fairly large numbers of baptisms and some of these children may have only enrolled for the purposes of getting an education and living in better economic conditions than were available at home. Another reason to end the program. But it did help a lot of children.
@@geoffshelley2427 It was. I learned more about the gospel on my mission than I ever did before. And I witnessed miracals and saw things that strengthened my faith.
It was so hard getting doors slammed in my face and dogs sicked at me
Pastor Jeff.
In my youth, our neighbor challenged us to read a chapter a day in the Book of Mormon. I was about 16 at the time. Our reward was to travel to SLC from Idaho. We got to visit the Church Office Building. Our tour guide said, we may incounter some General Athorites. Within minutes, out came three of them. I can only remember the names of two of them. Merion G. Romney and LaGrand Richards. They shook our hands. I remember vividly as LaGrand looked straight into my eyes with a gentle smile. I felt the words, I love you. He did not say anything but his spirit did.
I just turned 61 years today. I can never forget that feeling I had from that time. It was strong! Because, I knew what my mother said to me when I was 6 to be true too.
LeGrand Richards is my great great grandpa. Cool story!
@@jamespeterson101 That is cool!
Even satan appears as an angel of light. Read the Gospel of John, and listen to the words of Jesus at face value. Ask THAT Jesus what is true. If you are trusting your feelings and Joseph Smith, then you are in serious eternal danger.
@@kevinedward-jt2vs It's not "your feelings," but the holy spirit. Go look at LeGrand Richard's biography and ask yourself if that is the kind of man whom the devil dwells in.
@@jamespeterson101 Satan wants anyone who falls for the lie that they can be a god, instead of going to Jesus directly and trusting with their heart alone in Jesus's loving atonement for ALL their sins on the cross, and upon HIS resurrection as their one and ONLY Lord God for eternity.
My uncle went to WV on his mission and was punched in the face when a man opened his door, and saw who he was….please be nice to our missionaries. ♥️ They get treated poorly sometimes.
Some of my best times visiting with people of other faiths is when I ask them about their journey to Christ. There are lots of good Christians wherever I look
I felt the temple square protester was concerned about my soul at the time he was yelling into my ear with a repurposed traffic cone. It was a moving moment.
🤦🏻♂️ not ok. They’re not all like that. Sorry you experienced that.
@@HelloSaints Yep, they are all like that. My wife and young daughters were called vile names by evangs at the entrance of a few church history sites. The fact that evangs don't know how to follow Christ and be missionaries is stunning. So in their "training" they're told to be vile and disgusting, say the most repulsive things to young kids to "show God's love." They're all saying the same drivel, that's how they're trained! Even if I weren't LDS, I would never consort with those roaches.
.... HARD PASS!!!
Seriously. Big difference to a set of missionaries knocking on your door where you can decline to answer as opposed to having someone yell in your ear to “save your soul” on your way to a church function That seems like a much bigger infringement on my personal space IMO. If you answer the door unawares you can almost be assured they’ll politely excuse themselves after you say “I’m not interested”. I’m sure there are some eager ones out there, like in every religion or organization, but hey, we both feel like what we believe is important to those who will earnestly hear. But screaming your beliefs in my ear would be a HUGE turn off.
Yeah those temple square yellers are awesome. I try to stop and talk to them and they wont have it. they actual prefer to yell
Yeah, no one likes to be yelled at. But at the end of your life, you will have heard the TRUE Biblical Gospel and warnings both gently and loudly, and everywhere in between. You will have no excuse for why you trusted in Joseph's false gospel, and WILL receive your eternal consequences. Matthew 11:17 "'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
Kindness is the best way to go about our disagreements. When I was in high school I had a friend who was LDS and one who was a Jehovah’s Witness and often instead of trying to understand them and their beliefs I would try to debate and if I’m going to be honest I was very arrogant. Our beliefs are important and we should hold onto sound doctrine but we should use that doctrine to love God, love others, and point them to Jesus.
Sharing Testimony of Christ 100%. That's the key bridge.
As an LDS member who's been involved in some of those cross-faith verbal debates, I grew tired of all the rehearsed fight topics, each with endless branches for debating and sought out anything that turns the conversation into a testimony strengthening experience. Many atheists can quote and debate scripture all day long. Ive had to remind members of all faiths, mine included, that the Book isn't God, it leads you to God. Don't worship the Book, find God through it. Share with me your experiences, I'll share mine with you, and then God will open our eyes to see each other as brothers so we can learn to serve God better, together.
I live in Texas where Latter-Day saints are not a major population. What I see here however is “Evangelicals” fight with each other over membership and doctrine. I don’t think the Evangelical community is as united as people assume.
Did you see what happened at the big men's conference? Male stripper type act and then two pastors huge argument. Very weird.
@@TamaraLee-uz8hm I did. Great example
@@barretrunyon4959there should be no agreement over a male stripper at a religious event
@@BrendonKing Agree… and yet there is a major disconnect between various factions in the Evangelical community on many doctrinal topics and practices.
“They're wolves in sheep's clothing,
Hypocrites, liars, and fools!
They say you can't go to Heaven
If you don't abide by THEIR rules!
Remember RELIGION crucified Jesus,
When love was His only mission!
God save us all from religion!
Ain't it a shame how the world's gone insane,
How we hurt and we hate, and we kill in God's name?
And Heaven above knows the answer is love
But it's sure hard to find it down here!” - Charlie Daniels
I loved this! Such a productive way to have conversations with those who have different beliefs than I do. I love being a Latter Day Saint, but I also love hearing the passion that my evangelical friends have about Jesus and the gospel. 💕
One impression I'm getting from this channel is that Evangelicals must really underestimate how much Latter-day Saints study and follow the Bible.
Perplexing, the challenges to biblical doctrines such as the necessity of baptism for salvation (Mark 16:16; John 3:5).
Ultimately, those "many mansions" will have a place for us according to what we're willing/choosing to believe and do.
You just proved your own concern. Anyone who thoroughly studies the Bible will know the many times people are converted and saved without or before being baptized. And if you think the mansion size depends on any works of ours you are again missing the entire good news of the bible of what being saved by grace means.
There does seem to be some understand or expectation that Latter Day Saints just miss, ignore, or consistently contradict the Bible. I haven’t seen that to be the case in my few decades as a member.
I have never met a LDS who studies the Bible.
When I attending a meetinghouse for the first time , the person giving the talks actually talked down on the Bible about how mistranslated it was through the centuries and that the Book of Mormon was more correct
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 just tells me you need more exposure to lds people. i know the bible far far far better than our other sandards works and canon.
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328that’s based a lot on interpretation. It is important that phrases can be interpreted many ways. And since certain Bible passages don’t have modern clarifying commentary, it’s hard to say whose interpretation is right. If you claim “well that’s the tradition” then well… why did protestants break off from Catholics in the first place? There is so much more to this and that’s why I think we can find room to edify each other in Christ regardless of the various views on theology. If anyone says something to you that helps you to be more Christlike, patient, kind, forgiving etc, then God is speaking through them regardless of their religion. If God can speak to Balaam using a donkey, he can speak to the human soul to teach and testify, regardless of religion.
Thanks for the work you do pastor Jeff! You are truly a peacemaker and follower of Christ.
One thing I wish evangelicals would do more of is engage with our disagreements on what exactly the Bible is teaching as opposed to believing that we LDS are willing to set aside its teachings. It’s true that we do have additional revelation obviously but in nearly all cases we believe that expands on, clarifies and adds a second witness to what the Bible teaches. Whereas I often get the impression that evangelicals believe we are saying the Bible is wrong because according to an evangelical interpretation it disagrees with some doctrine we have. When in fact we simply disagree on what the Bible is saying. It often seems that evangelicals think that if you disagree with how they interpret the Bible, you must be stupid, part of a cult, influenced by demons, etc. I wish they would simply respectfully disagree. When I think an evangelical is wrong about something, I still believe they’re acting in good faith and are a good person. Although I’m sure we LDS as a group do this too.
Also I want to say thanks. You taught me that we are talking past each other because we use similar/same words with slightly different meanings that lead us to very different places. Reminds me of an elder Uchtdorf airplane talk where a small difference in the direction you point the plane affects where you end up landing the plane exponentially.
The Bible and the bom/LDS doctrine are non compatible in many ways. This is why evangelicals will assume you only study certain parts of the Bible which have been incorrectly (not logical or not contextual, or not historical, etc) interpreted 1800 years after Jesus walked the earth, or even after 4000 years of worldwide historical definitions, like on the character and essence of God himself.
What I find interesting is that Jeff started with the, "Don't try to argue with LDS using the Bible because you aren't going to convince them because they believe they have fuller revelation and scriptures that clarify better than just the Bible" (true that is what we believe), but then he presented or quoted bible scriptures to support Evangelical beliefs through out the video. Made me believe that it is just inherent in the evangelical culture to "prove" everything through the Bible using some preponderance of scripture. The LDS do not prove anything through scripture, "proof" comes through the Holy Spirit testifying to the soul. Scriptures' purpose in the process is to lead one to a point where the individual has been prepared to receive the testimony of the Spirit. There are no "mic drop moments", or gotcha situations where my superior knowledge of the scriptures confounds the heathen. That is hugely arrogant and prideful and counter to the Spirit. I was a top debater and speech and forensics student in high school but found out early in my mission that those skills were kind of useless when applied to what it was God wanted me to do.
If you will notice, twice in this Video when he talked about Christians, he was referring to evangelicals, and not LDS. He has finally stopped calling us Mormons and now calling us Latter Day Saints, but he and other evangelicals will NEVER call us Christians. They still don't consider us Christians and NEVER will. I don't recall him ever calling Latter day Saints, Christians in any of his Video's
@@dougwheeler1265 I will try to clarify why they do not call the LDS Church Christian, though Jeff did refer to the reason in this episode. He stated that the LDS Church believes in the same historic Jesus but does not believe in the same perspective of his teachings. This IS accurate. The LDS church, which is a christian church, does not believe in the same doctrines as other Christians. Because of this truth, the likelihood that Jeff will refer to people of the LDS faith as Christian is slim. Wby, because to be Christian in their view, you must have similar beliefs in what they perceive as Christian teachings. The LDS Church does not have those same beliefs. Now, I will state my opinion in this matter. I feel that Jeff is a Christian, through and through. I also feel that many LDS people are Christian as well. I feel the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Jeff is trying to have what he calls an open dialog and understand the beliefs of another group. He is doing so with fairly high levels of carrying and presenting it all with an openness for friendship. I've said that it's okay to speak to others about religion as long as both sides can allow the other to be wrong. Jeff isn't looking to see if the LDS Church is true he's trying to allow them to be wrong without being combative. I respect that. A truth seeker is someone trying to find truth, Jeff feels he's found the truth. Thus, the LDS Church, by default is not true. And, since the differences between his belief and the LDS Churches beliefs have some vastness to them, it makes the LDS Church not Christians. In Jeff's mind, trying to read it from a great distance of course,... Having a form of godliness but denying the power there of... Would be a close thought on what the LDS Church represents. I would differ and say that those that pickup their cross are Christian. But who am I in the greater scheme of things? Hopefully my words help and don't hurt the message.
As a LDS member in my 40s living in Tenn. I engage with the protestant elderly in my neighborhood. I understand that their life experiences are far ahead of mine. They have a lot more experience than me in prayer, charity, forgiveness, unconditional love tolerance acceptance relationship with God and many more things. I would be unwise to not learn from them. It could go both ways. Thank you Pastor Jeff for building this bridge.
I grew up being the minority being LDS. When I served a mission I refused to ever argue with people. I was happy to listen and discuss things, but I truly believed that contention drove the spirit away. I really appreciate you doing the same. It’s so important that we learn to communicate with each other.
Same. If people began to argue or bash I told them it was nice to meet them and I hoped they had a great day or asked if there was anything we could do for them outside of religious discussion. I had companions who would preach at them or recite scripture or testimony, and I would just start to walk away. It upset a lot of my companions, but I always felt that people who needed our message were going to be in places with softer hearts, and if I spent my time getting worked up and arguing with people who weren't looking for sincere dialogue I was going to be in the wrong place and wrong frame of mind to find people who were ready.
@@kaelichaemusicI bet your blood pressure was a lot lower too!
I got into an argument with a Protestant minister in Germany (I’m sure he won 😂). It was the worst feeling I’ve had on my mission and I promised I’d never do it again.
When I served my mission I knew, not because I was taught it by anyone, that I should never contend with scripture because the spirit fled when ever I saw it happen with those who contended with us. My husband was counseled before his mission to never seek to contend with scriptures (weaponizing scriptures for our own purposes), but through the spirit and testimony instead. However, I was raised by a “father” who was usually up to terrible things who always hid behind “God” as a pretense, and would typical say “as God as my witness.” It left a very nasty taste in my mouth and I have vowed to never do anything close that resembled that same spirit. Those who fight using God’s word or fight to try to convert, defame the God they profess to believe and I cannot imagine this would be pleasing to a God we are trying to serve and be His hands. To me it is much like using God’s name in vain.
This video was done so eloquently. Thank you for sharing how all people of every faith can relate and share in a respectful manner. ❤
I am not super functional physically but I would give anything be able to serve a mission
For the church of jesus christ of laterday saints.
I have respect other faiths, your all amazing people, I think your awsome!
It takes a lot of courage to go and learn about
Someone else's faith, I think it's awesome hear onother perspective on it.
Here's my testimony of what I believe.
I believe in Christ, I know that he loves us deeply and individually, I know josive Smith
Is a prophet of God, I always feal the spirit when I'm learning about him.
I have come to know for myself from my own experience that the book of Mormon is true.
I want so much to a mission, I do anything to have that opportunity.
Thanks for the video Jeff! The more I hear you talk about grace the more similar I feel our beliefs are. I would say the main difference might be our definition of faith. Correct me if I’m wrong but many evangelicals I’ve talked to seem to believe that faith is the same thing as just believing. This is an attempt to articulate our relationship with grace and works.
As Latter-day Saints we believe we are 100% saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8). However we also believe that if we have faith in Jesus Christ that means we will do what he says. Faith is more than believing, it’s a principle of action. It is manifest in our works If we’re not willing to do the things God asks of us, we don’t really have faith. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:17-20
Here we see that even the Devils believe and tremble. Will the devils be saved by believing in Christ?
We show faith by our works and by following the gospel of Christ in order to have access to the fullness of God's blessings.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16). Does that mean that baptism saves us? Obviously not. Jesus saves us. But in order to gain access to his grace we need to exercise faith by doing what he says. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21). Did bathing in the river Jordan 7 times heal Naaman? No. God healed him. Would he have been healed if he didn't do it after a prophet of God showed him the way? I personally don't think so. He needed to act in faith. It's clear that God wants us to "be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" James 1:22
I feel like you would agree with the majority of this and would be curious to know where we differ in opinion/interpretation!
#3) As an lds member, I agree we define salvation differently, but we don't think of ordinances as "works." We think of "work" as a verb, "something you do," not as a noun, and a bad word. Just cuz someone goes thru the ordinances, it doesn't mean they're saved. It's a means to help us change our hearts, and show God we're trying. I don't mind saying we have a "works" based salvation, because IMO the Christian life should be a lot of work - but it does pay off in joy. You get what you work for, in life, and in the afterlife.
Titus 2: 11-14 🤍 the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
But not all people will accept this offer. Free will exists..
when we become Christians, grace is on us immediately. Yes the Bible talks about judgment of works. We believe, if you are not a Christian, you will not see that judgment of works. You have decided your eternal judgement through free will by not accepting Jesus
Our salvation is not based on works but like he said, our works are evident after we are saved. We do things out of joy & delight & not out of duty or because we feel like we have to.
We believe God came as flesh to live a life we could not. Jesus (The Son) is the way to The Father. And once we believe that & accept that, we receive the Holy Spirit and our lives will radically change through sanctification.
I am not sure what you mean by 1 Peter 1:17.. that is written to believers who have already accepted Christ.. peter is saying “since you call on a “Father” who judges each persons work impartially..” that the audience is His children. The Bible makes it clear we become children after salvation. That’s why it’s important to know the context of the scripture. 🤍 hope that helps from an evangelical / biblical worldview.
@@user28141 “We do things out of joy & delight & not out of duty or because we feel like we have to.” But, don’t evangelicals accept Jesus because you believe that the difference between burning in a lake of fire and brimstone with the devils who rebelled against God and receiving the most blessed rewards with the martyrs of God in heaven is the difference between accepting Jesus and not? When I look at The Church of Jesus Christ of Later day saints I see a bunch of people serving God because they love him and his teachings. When I look at the doctrine I mentioned above, I see a doctrine of relief euphoria.
@@explorerofmind i feel like you are asking if we believe in heaven AND hell? Because the answer to that is yes. Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
Did I accept Jesus as my savior and my Lord to avoid hell?? No. Because my decision to follow him is not out of fear. It’s out of a realization of a deep need for a savior.. he paid the price we literally cannot pay. & I tried everything to find meaning and purpose and happiness prior to my relationship with Jesus and nothing would fill it. Only Jesus can. There is freedom in surrendering to Him. And I have unexplainable peace and joy because of it.. I hope that explains your question.
@@user28141 What you described about finding meaning and freedom and feeling a deep need for Christ is why members of the Church of Jesus Christ tend to follow his teachings. If we have duties it is because we are motivated to fulfill them as part of that meaning. You have been misinformed if you think that Latter-day Saints are any less motivated by the love of God than any other group.
@@explorerofmind I wholeheartedly believe most LDS members are motivated by the love of a god. But your god and my God are simply not the same. And I say that with all sincerity and love ❤️
Thank you, Jeff. Very well done. I can only think of one thing to add to your list that acts as an ongoing barrier between Evangelical and Latter-day Saint relationships: Evangelicals do not see members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as their brothers and sisters in Christ. I know that this ties back to your point on us not agreeing on the nature of Jesus, but I'm not sure if you understand just how badly we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, crave fellowship with you and other Evangelicals. At times, saying that Evangelicals ostracize members of the Latter-day Saint faith would be putting it VERY mildly. I have had dozens of conversations with Evangelicals, friends and not (I'm not a shy person). The moment I refer to them as my "Brother" or "Sister in Christ" their defenses shoot up, the photocopies of their anti-Mormon materials appear in hand, and the accusations of "your Jesus is really Satan!" come out in frantic rebuffs.
I get what you're doing, Jeff. I respect it, too! However, I think that it's important to realize that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are ALMOST ALWAYS the ones that are craving interfaith relations. What you're doing is rare because it's in the opposite direction as usual. You're an Evangelical attempting to better understand a Latter-day Saint through conversation! What you're doing is so rare that some members of the Latter-day Saint faith even have trouble believing that you're being sincere. I say keep it up! I hope that your efforts are contagious with our other Evangelical Brothers and Sisters.
We "badly crave fellowship" with evangelicals??
I didnt know you were an official spokesperson for us.
@@gbengoosewuru4139 Well that was needlessly aggressive. Who are you fighting with? What's the issue? If you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are you saying that you don't want to fellowship with Christians of other faiths?
I absolutely agree with this. My family stopped talking to me for awhile when I joined the LDS church, and I still get occasional comments about it being a cult. What hurts the most is that I support their faiths, I go to their churches once in awhile, and I even have conversations about the Bible with them. But as soon as I bring up my faith, I'm shut down. So yes - we do crave interfaith companionship and understanding!
@@TtotheMIM first, it wasn't aggressive. You spoke on behalf of the members of the church and I commented that I didn't know you spoke for everyone. You should stop doing that if you're going to get offended if someone calls you out on it.
second, I love my brothers and sisters of all faiths, but I don't "crave fellowship" with them. Sounds borderline psycho.
@@RobinT85 family and a stranger yelling at you from the top of their lungs is different. You crave a relationship with your family that you feel has abandoned you.
My oldest is 15. When she's missionary age and going to show her this video. It's so good to help understand an evangelical perspective of Jesus Christ. The differences and similarities.
Why wait? I remember talking with friends during middle school and high school about what we believed. Show her now. It will help her to see differences now. It's better to have these conversations throughout our lives starting at a young age do it doesn't appear were "hiding" something.
One time servong my LDS mission i knocked on the door of youth pastor, since that's what je introduced himself as. I asked if we can share our beliefs to him. He invited us in, grabbed his Bible, his wife comes in and I can tell they were ready for a debate. Seeing that really goes nowhere i asked if i could share a scripture instead. He kindly obliged. We turned to 1 John 2:3-6. We all agreed and and is missionaries continued on our way. Years later I'm hoping he and his wife are doing well.
I find that debates drive away the spirit. A debate invites hostility and anger, the goal is to be "right", not to learn and discuss. I think offering to share a scripture instead perfectly displays the attitude we must have.
I'm sure he is hoping the same for you, too.
What a Christlike way of handling that situation. 😊
As much as evangelicals say they “love” Latter-day Saints when they’re picketing outside of general conference… I do not believe it! That is not how you show love. There’s no love there. Only contention, which is not from Christ.
One thing Pastor Jeff has pointed out is that those folks are in the solid minority of Evangelicals. If you haven't watched his videos about going to general conference, I encourage you to watch them.
@@dallinshumway7188 it’s hard to believe that they’re the minority when all you see on social media are people like Jeff Durbin, James White, Allen Parr, etc I want to believe him. But based on what I see out there, it’s just Pastor Jeff and a few others. If, the evangelical voices that persecute Latter-day Saints are much louder
But if Mormonism truly isn’t a Christian faith, why shouldn’t Evangelicals be out there talking about it and trying to show you the truth of God’s word in every single way possible? If I think you’re truly headed for hell on the path you (which is exactly what I do think) how much do I have to hate you to not share with you that fact?
@@austinnajar so based on your world view, I’m assuming you believe Jews and Muslims are going to hell too… so why not protest the synagogues and mosques? Don’t you love them too and want to save them from hell?
@@austinnajar so I’m assuming you believe Jews and Muslims are also going to hell… why not protest outside of their synagogues and mosques?
It was interesting that I felt like I could understand the evangelical perspective much more because I felt like you really had a good understanding of my Latter Day Saint perspective. It will help me have a greater love for my evangelical brothers and sisters that I used to see as mean spirited protesters. This was a very helpful video. Thank you!
Full respect for you
LDS doctrine does not teach that Jesus Christ is a created being. Many assume that until they understand the doctrine of Organized Intelligences. An organized intelligence is eternal. It can not be created and cannot be destroyed. LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ has always existed as a devine being.
I believe that would apply to everyone, for doesn’t everyone, according to LDS doctrine have an “eternal intelligence”?
No, it doesn't.
You are incorrect
@@Mikha335 Yes, Exactly! This is why we believe we can become gods or more accurately we are currently juvenile gods. We believe we have the ability to become like our Father in Heaven. Its not a matter of arrogance or pride, its a matter of maturity or development. This is reflected in John 10:34 when Jesus Christ said "Ye are gods." Certainly humans are not gods. Just like caterpillars are not butterflies. But caterpillars can become butterflies.🙂
@@AltaPlumbingElectric please explain how I incorrectly stated LDS doctrine.
Excellent video! Thank you for speaking to both groups with respect and honoring both groups. And their right to have their own beliefs of the gospel understanding, yet still show living kindness and respect to the person. Thank you, Pastor Jeff. ❤
When I was on my mission, in Chile. There were people who welcomed us in, especially when it was raining, and told us they didn't want to hear a lesson. However, they simply wanted us to dry off and have something warm to drink. Speaking for myself, I very much appreciated this and remember them fondly to this day.
On point #2: I agree LDS and evangelicals draw different definitions, but similar to evangelicals, LDS do believe the Holy Spirit gives us the living and enabling power and presence of Jesus in our lives. LDS would word this by saying that we are sanctified through the spirit, which is equivalent to brining the power of Jesus and his atonement in our lives. Thanks for the video.
Good clarification!
But as someone else replied, the LDS can only keep the spirit's presence if they perform their ordinances. Right?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 Confirmation is the only ordinance required to keep the Holy Ghost, since that is also called the gift of the Holy Ghost. But it can also be lost by not keeping the covenants associated with the ordinances of the gospel
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 I would look at it more like we can keep the spirit's presence by keeping our thoughts, words and actions in line with God's will. The gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed on individuals during the confirmation ordinance as spideyN8R pointed out below, but it's not really a mechanical process of keeping the spirit through performing ordinances. We may feel the spirit while performing an ordinance, but to keep the spirit, we need to live in keeping with the covenants we made with God (aka promising to keep His commandments).
I just appreciate your willingness and ability to ask for peace and understanding from both sides. You're a great example to both church members and evangelicals.
Pastor, you’re doing a great job. I enjoy your videos and I appreciate your sincerity, kindness, and civility. I also enjoy your intellect and your loving nature. Keep up the great work. Much love from an LDS member who appreciates very much what you are doing.
I believe that you are genuinely called by our heavenly father to be a bridgebuilder, and you’re doing a great job. Thank you.
I didn't think I would enjoy this video from the title, but you are a good bridge builder for understanding different aspects of who Jesus is in our lives, and our common humanity as Christians. "blessed are the peacemakers...." thank you.
These tips are great, but as a Latter-Day Saint, there are some evangelicals who don't love us. At Temple Square, some have disrespected our garments. Others have signs "Joseph Smith lied." While an evangelical may have those convictions, you will not win over any Latter-Day Saints. Then there is Apologia church. They rely on outdated information and insist that is what we believe. LDS missionaries are urgent too, so I feel like there is a better way for evangelicals to engage with us.
This respect of beliefs goes both ways. If Latter-Day Saints want us to respect their beliefs than they must respect ours when asked not to baptize our family members just don't do it. The normal response is they don't see how this can be disrespectful to our beliefs they are just offering the dead person doesn't have to accept.
@@Pencelia I would agree that Latter-Day Saints should respect those wishes. After all, they are someone else's family member, not ours.
@@Pencelia Here is a good example of not being explained. We do baptism for the dead for family members that pasted away. There more them 17 million members of the church, and eventually family lines do cross. We don't always have the full story. Also of the Is request to not Is baptize is not on the our generology website then simply we don't know, and we see that as to go head do it. I hope this help people understand.
All Church members are instructed to submit names for proxy baptism only for their own deceased relatives as an offering of familial love.
Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a proxy baptism depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world. The names of deceased persons are not added to the membership records of the Church.
I agree, proselytizing like this only tells reasonable people what groups to not be part of. Who are they accountable to? I wonder why more evangelicals do not speak out against this type of behavior. No one appreciates having holy symbols desecrated. They seem to be trying to elicit a violent response. Why is that?
As I was listening to this video, I was also playing songs from the LDS children’s hymn book. There are some great ones like “I Know My Father Lives, “Search, Ponder, and Pray”, and (the very popular amongst little kids) “Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam”.
It got me wondering what are some of the hymns/songs/music that are popular among evangelicals. You showed a video of different congregations with different music, and I wondered if there’s like a list of songs that are universally known among evangelicals for the spirit the song brings, it’s historical importance, or just tradition.
That could be an interesting video - comparing children’s songs!?
@@proudtoshootpentax or any songs. Children songs would be an interesting scope though.
Great episode Jeff. Thank you for your ongoing outreach. I love it!
I really appreciate what you said about missionaries. It's true we aren't equipped to debate. We just want to show you what we believe and if you feel that it reaonates with the truth then we are meant to help guide you to baptism. We are also there to help answer any questions you may have or at least help guide you to the answers you need on your own faith journey. I appreciate you encouraging respect for them. The missionaries are near and dear to my heart and as someone who had a frying pan thrown at my head, and naked people answer the door out of a desire to be provocative, and even had someone give me their "address" that was actually a brothel on my mission it always brings joy to my heart to hear that people treat them respectfully and with honesty.
Pastor Jeff, I want to express my gratitude for your work to unite Christianity. As a Latter-Day Saint I feel that you represented our beliefs well which is a great achievement on your part considering you are not of our faith.
I also appreciate your explination of your beliefs and helping me see how you view certain aspects of the atonement among other points of Christianity.
Thanks again, keep up the great work.
Jeff, please do a video on solo scriptura!
from your videos I have really learned much better your belief of solo scripture and how very important that is to you. But I feel like your videos have never really gone deep and explained why. I would love to learn when and where that belief evolved from in history, doctrine and scripture. I would love you to hit on some of the key things A latter-day saint would immediately think . i.e., the scripture were not closed for thousands of years but should be closed now? Or, prophets and apostles existed and could write freely then but if they didn’t write it down then it isn’t doctrine forever more? Or, why new apostles were chosen if new words are not allowed. Or, why the Bible authors didn’t consider their writings the final word but we should? Or, the Bible was compiled and books could be missing but it doesn’t matter they shouldn’t count? Etc etc
Don’t take those things the wrong way, I am truly curious why it is so so rock solid important and even offensive perhaps for an LDS to say the Bible is not likely ALL of god’s word.
Of course it's not all of God's word (He speaks to us daily!) But it is all his word regarding doctrine. It makes no sense to understand the nt fulfilling the ot in Jesus' perfection and then 1800 years later learn a wholly different way and expectations of relating to God and earning exaltation, does it? Hebrews 1 makes it completely clear that Jesus was the word of God and also the last word on the law fulfilled. Amen!
I like the way CS Lewis explained it in the last battle. All righteousness is counted to the glory of God regardless of in whose name it was don't. Likewise, evil done in the name of God is still in service of the devil (to paraphrase)
We also believe faith is the fundamental principle of action. So it's not faith vs works, faith is works, or if you like, works are faith made manifest. Review how often Christ taks of faith then realize the action he is responding to. Or he gives the person an opportunity to act, even if that action is only a declaration of belief.
The way i see it, Christ has paid the price of admission for all 3 kingdoms. The gates stand open before you and you may choose any. Walking through the gate would be both a work and act of faith. The way we actually choose however, is by living our life. Which ever kingdom's law we intend to follow, to that kingdom do we belong. Not someday, now. If you don't want to live a Christ like life now, you won't suddenly want to start living one there. The gates are still open, and the price still paid, but the wanton sinner will find God’s presence... uncomfortable, and will choose a different kingdom.
Jeff, I LOVE that you made this video! I think that you are absolutely a man of God and more Christlike than probably most of the people I know in the LDS faith. Jeff is doing a GREAT work in bringing together and finding common ground with those of different beliefs. He's doing something that I think is very difficult to do for the average LDS/Evangelical person due to time/knowledge/truly understanding constraints; That is bringing the children of God together in love and understanding one another. If we all could embrace each others differences and accept them as human, and not inferior, imagine what the world would be like!
I agree that Evangelical Protestants are at a distinct disadvantage in merely conversing with LDS people about "Scripture." Since both groups do not have a common authority to go back to, meaningful dialogue is often not possible. I would prefer to know "why" Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet? It would also be interesting to know why they believe the Church needed to be "restored?" Matthew 28: 19-20. 😊😊😊
If there was no great apostasy after the death of the apostles, then the true gospel resides with Judaism or Catholicism. Right?
All of modern Christianity has spawned from Catholicism and Mormonism. No other sects claim any authority. And the Christian world seems to give no thanks to the Jews for the Bible that they so desperately cling to.
How are you supposed to know if anything spiritual is true? Pray about it sincerely… right?
There are also Sister Missionaries! They go on their mission for 18 months (a year and a half) instead of 2 years!
I really appreciated this video, I learned a lot! Also, my Mom heart really appreciated what you said about LDS missionaries being young boys and to be nice to them. My son is out serving right now and I worry about him a lot! My biggest worry is people treating him badly, so thank you!!!
This was very helpful! I like your way of speaking, it is an art!
Thanks Jeff for providing this platform to clarify our beliefs. I have the same issue when I talk to my Evangelical friends, and point out scriptures in the Bible that support our doctrine and say, "See, this is what the Bible says." For example, in 1 Corinthians 15, false doctrine was being preached that there was no resurrection and yet they were practicing baptisms for the dead. So baptism for the dead is not something made up by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but modern revelation has brought light on the practice of that doctrine (See Doctrine and Covenants section 128). Paul asked them why they were baptizing for the dead because they didn't believe in a resurrection, thus validating the reason and need of baptizing for the dead, because the dead DO rise. Another example is in 1 Peter 3:19 and 4:6 concerning the doctrine of preaching the gospel to the dead. Doctrine and Covenants section 138 is modern revelation shining light on that passage of scripture. When we speak of revelation given to modern day prophets, we mostly are not producing new doctrine, more often than not it is bringing light and understanding of the doctrines found in the Bible. There are some doctrines that were practiced in the Bible at a certain time when the Lord commanded it such as plural marriage. Similarly was the case when there was a revelation given to Joseph Smith on the practice of plural marriage and later to discontinue it. All according to God's purpose, time and will. All other religions that believe the Bible have their personal interpretations of these scriptures or ignore them all together (correct me if I'm wrong), while Christ's true and living church actually practices and teaches ALL that is taught in the Bible and led by Christ through his mouthpiece, a living prophet. Amos 3:7 says God reveals his secrets unto his prophets. Another note: Malachi 3:1 is a prophecy that occurred in the Kirtland Temple. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to fulfill prophecy.
Actually if you go back and read 1 Corinthians 15, he never says Christians have practiced baptism for the dead or should do so. He references the practice and actually says clearly it is a completely different group doing it by using the word “they”. So the inclusion of a pagan practice as an argument for the resurrection doesn’t mean Christians are supposed to adopt that pagan practice. It’s showing the fact that even those outside the faith recognize the reality of a future resurrection.
And I’ll add as well, there is not one place in the Bible where plural marriage is ever commanded. It is permitted in a couple places, but there are only 4 Bible characters who are open polygamists:
1. Abraham who then threw out his second wife and first son because his first wife didn’t want them.
2. Jacob who has a disdain for all his wives but one and in so doing also shows favoritism among his kids.
3. David whose sin of lust was so great he committed adultery and murdered a man to take his wife for himself.
3. Solomon, whose taking of foreign wives and concubines eventually led to the downfall of Israel and the Babylonian captivity.
I don’t think you want to argue any of those were good things. Then in the New Testament it is completely condemned and it says anyone practicing it is completely unqualified for church leadership. That also means Joseph Smith and Brigham Young couldn’t have been leaders in the church based on their own actions.
@@austinnajar Thank you for your input. The audience that I see Paul writing to are the saints in the church of God which is at Corinth. In 1 Cor. 15:12, Paul asked "...how say some among YOU that there is no resurrection of the dead?" We probably could go on forever going over interpretation. Thus we see why there are so many churches in the world, each having their own interpretation. Thus the importance of living apostles and prophets in one true church. The churches in the New Testament would be considered "Wards" in today's language of the restored church.
@@harrmarkcards there are no living prophets and apostles and there were never intended to be. That ended in the first century after the canon was closed. We now have the word of God, found solely and completely in the Old and New Testament, to be our direction.
@@austinnajar Again, different interpretation of the Bible. We say it means one thing. You say it means something else. This is an agree to disagree moment and I don't want to argue about it. Not helpful.
Great video Jeff.
Oh how much you have grown! I’m very happy and proud of you.
From my perspective on temple ordinances and salvation;
They are necessary, although they do not pay for things like sin or salvation or justice. But it’s the method of how we receive and become new creatures in Christ who can receive all of Christs grace.
It’s needed, not to help pay for anything, but for the reason to transform us. To help us practice heaven here, now. (At least as much as a fallen mortal can)
When we have felt the spirit and revived Christs salvation, and realize it, we seek to do good works. Good works being evidence of salvation.
But aren't the good works of the Bible those that God has prepared for us to do using the gifts of the holy Spirit that he has given individually? None of us are the same. Why would we all be expected to perform the same rituals, even if only practicing heaven? So you think we'll be baptizing the dead in heaven too?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 I’m a bit confused by your comment.
Where does it say anywhere that each person gets their own specialized rituals?
We each have our own walks of faith, yes.
But Christ commands us all to have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost. Pray, fast, etc. those are all very standard stuff.
If you want to learn about baptisms for the dead, I can give you a link :)
Thanks for the video and bringing more of these issues to light
Best explanation of the degrees of Glory and what we really believe leads to Salvation from a non-Latter-day Saint that I've ever heard! Thank you Jeff
This was one of the best videos I've seen from an evangelical perspective EVER! Honestly, I know you believe in the restored gospel and doctrine of the Latter-Day Saints. I know, you know in your heart it's true, and I believe you have had revelation it's true, and for reasons unknown, you have not fully embraced or revealed it yet.
With all your research and time spent learning and conversing with your Latter-Day Saint brothers and sisters, and your in-depth study of the BOM, you know it's true. I have no doubt that you do. I can't wait for the episode when you tell everyone you are joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints!
You won't lose any followers because in my estimate, 99.9% of your followers are LDS. I doubt more than 1% are evangelical because they don't see things the way you do. They can't because they haven't spent hours and personal time like you have.
You have devoted your work and study to the LDS faith; your channel is proof. Your understanding is so in-depth and deep now compared to when you began this journey. You have grown, and you know. I know you know, and I believe your wife knows too.
You cannot deny what you have felt. You have changed; you are nothing like the evangelical you once were. Just my observation, and feeling. I appreciate - finally what you are doing, because it has given me a great perspective to why my evangelical friends react to me the way they do, and to try to understand them a little better. They have always been so hostile, and I mean really hostile towards me when the topic of religion is brought up. I think I can see their side a little differently, and hopefully not be as offended when they tell me I'm going to hell because they don't mean it in a rude way, but because they want to save me. Thanks Jeff!
I'd say you don't really know Jeff and what he holds crystal clear of the biblical faith passed down from Jesus and his apostles to all who come to him to be trans formed and saved by God's mercy and grace. Like he said, we can still disagree but be respectful of one another's beliefs.
Thank you for the comments about being kind to the missionaries! I'll never forget my mom just sobbbing at the table when she read my brother's mission letters home about how poorly they were treated sometimes. I'll NEVER forget her quote "you may have issues with someone's beliefs, but that is someone's CHILD you're talking to."
You are a very understanding respecting person. Thank you. It makes me want to be better too.
Loved this! 🤝
I loved this video because this is how I was raised. For context my Mom grew up out of Utah and my Dads parents were not active. I have always felt that talking to people and hearing them is the best way to be friends with those with differing doctrinal views.
My question though is how do you talk to people who are just yelling at you that you are going to Hell for a differing belief? It makes me feel a need to avoid where as those who are lovingly street preaching I have had some of the most beautiful prayers and conversations. How would you recommend I show love when being condemned without them knowing me?
I struggle when people seemingly innocently say “You believe in a different Jesus than we do, so we aren’t alike and you aren’t Christian” as if that’s not the most offensive thing you could say to me lol. I am instantly turned off by it.
17:20 I hope you know how much we appreciate your voice in helping bridge the gap. I push back a lot on some things you say because there is so much more to it that is hard to understand when you haven’t studied it like I have for 30+ years. But I appreciate you learning and setting the right example as that Latter-day Saints do have a lot other learn from evangelicals as well. Evangelicals helped me to come to understand Christ better and I have been benefited from their testimony.
I often want to shout to the world “the truth is here” because of how much clearer the picture of Jesus becomes in the restored gospel. But people have to come to understanding one step at a time and it does not do good to argue. And I need to do better at that.
Gosh, when I study LDS materials Jesus gets more merky. Either he is a trinitarian God as it says in the bom or he is a created spirit child of God and brother to Lucifer and the rest of us. I don't see that getting cleared up at all as an LDS believer. How do you make sense of it?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 I think whether a person is a Trinitarian or a person who believes in the Godhead understanding God gets tricky. We are living in a 3-D space, but God is much more than 3-Dimensional. But I will say that the book of Mormon does not describe Jesus in a Trinitarian way at all, unless people only take snippets here and there. For it describes that Jesus becomes the father of us all because of His atonement. Heavenly Father was the father of our spirits and we pray to that Father as Jesus did. But Jesus becomes the Father, bridging the gap as we are brought back to Him. Like a foster care situation where we were removed from our Father’s house and placed in a foster home. Jesus is like our foster Father, but our Heavenly Father is still our spiritual father. So that is why Jesus is referred to as the Father at times in the scriptures.
Another way to understand how it is not trinitarian is that just as prophets sometimes speak prophetically in messianic way (the prophet speaking as if they were the Lord or God, or his “mouthpiece if you will”) Jesus speaks on behalf of the Father. So when He speaks, though He also shares the title of God, he is not the Father of our Spirits that we are to pray to as Jesus taught. Jesus speaks for God, and the prophets speak for Jesus. It’s the manner in which information is passed down to us from God in this mortal realm. And Jesus who shares the title of God came down in flesh to dwell among us to share with us how to be Godly and use God’s power to rise up and make the world better. Thus, God has a body, the Son has a body, and the Holy Spirit all have their own bodies. God the Father and the Son have physical bodies, but their spirit is God and dwells within their bodies. The Holy Spirit does not have a body of flesh, but is part of that energy that is in and through all things.
Accepting and living point #6 changed my relationship with my Evangelical mother-in-law. Once we stopped looking at all the differences and trying to convert and save each other, we were left with our shared love of Jesus. I love talking about Christ with my mother-in-law and I have learned so much from her about how to be a better disciple of Christ. I've learned that my job isn't to "save" her... that's Christ's job. My job is to love her. And love her, I do! The other thing I've realized as I have encountered others who do not share my beliefs is that if I become un-Christlike in my defense of Christ, then the adversary has won. Christ doesn't need to be defended (he's God!), he needs to be followed.
Hey this was a great podcast episode. I'm impressed in the way you stitch these together between Christian believers.
One realization I came to is that arguments about doctrine between LDS and evangelicals are really pointless because every road will eventually lead to the question of was Joseph Smith a true prophet? If he was then the only response would be to accept the teaching God revealed to him or reject it. ‘Whoever accepts a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward’. (Matt 10:41)
Protestant Christianity has inherited a long history of interpreting the Bible for truth. For us, the Bible is reinterpreted through the lens of revelation.
Solid insight here.
Being smarter or being more educated about the Bible does not make you right. As it applies to religion it should be a spiritual not intellectual discussion. My mother advised me if you talk someone into the church they can be talked out of it. In school I loved to debate and was good at it. On a mission you need to be humble and put your ego aside. I had read the Bible many times and knew it better than most. I was told knowing the Bible so well made me more credible. However, a missionary as Jeff said is more of a guide. I learned to not debate because being smarter does not make you right, and it never made anyone feel closer to GOD.
@@michaelmarsh8802 totally agree. Jesus never said we’d be judged by our intellect or knowledge. As Paul said ‘right now we see as through a glass darkly’. One day our knowledge will be complete but as for now we are tested on having faith, repentance, and becoming like a child in submission to His word, for ‘of such is the kingdom of heaven’.
@@michaelmarsh8802 I think I get what you're saying, but I also think we should be careful not to pit reason and intellect against faith.
As Doctrine and Covenants 93 teaches us: "the glory of God is intelligence"
"...and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion."
And section 88: "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."
I appreciate your perspectives. You're never hostile and you seek understanding. Although I'm not an evangelical, I do feel that you are indeed a man of God.
One of your best videos. It gave me many things to consider when talking to my Evangelical friends about Jesus Christ. I truly wish that you could speak to both sides of the political aisle to get them speaking with each other and not "past" each other. God Bless
Beautiful ❤
We don’t have many Mormons where I live. I’m Anglican.
The name of the church officially since the 1800s is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Look for this name. The Church of Jesus Christ refers to the church Jesus originally organized with Apostles and Prophets. The Lord when he REorganized his church with Apostles and Prophets, etc said "of Latter-Day Saints" was to distinguish his church in this the final dispensation of "human" history before his Second permanent Coming
I don’t like the question that we should ask of the Church is true because “asking with a sincere heart and real intent” basically means if you still receive an answer of NO then you didn’t do it with real intent or sincerity. Also it feels like we are to only pray about it and not test it according to the scripture, the Bible, to see if it is true and I believe and praying and comparing it to the Bible that it is not true.
Some of the protestors have left our church and are bitter. I believe they are not all genuinely concerned about my soul.
I appreciate your details here on “getting along”. I appreciate your efforts to help us be united in what we all believe. That we are here because of God. That He is our salvation. That we are his children. And that we will return to His presence.
I really appreciate all you are doing with this channel. I see a lot of good. I feel the spirit as I listen to your messages. You and I made opposite moves. We moved east th NC and you moved West. The LDS church in the east has many converts from Baptist and Protestant backgrounds and your videos help me understand where they are coming from better. Thank you!
Please try not to lead my brothers and sisters carefully down to hell…
I love this. I wouldn’t dismiss one or the other based on which scripture is being used. I think you gave an example how more understanding comes from referring to ALL scriptures on the matter (e.g grace and works with all referenced New Testament accounts)
The footnotes (other related verses, Bible dictionary, topical guide, etc…) are a great exercise for study we can share with each other
Even if the focus is on old and New Testament references just sharing improves understanding for both
I have a firm belief that if the focus is on Jesus Christ and we have an
Honest heart in our journey..our paths will one day align as the Lord would have us be in the end. To that end we can trust our Heavenly Father, through his son Jesus Christ, will receive us with all the blessings He has for us.
Thank you again for your care and leadership in interfaith relationships
My favorite way to talk about religion with others of any faith (including my own) is to ask “what do you love about your religion?”.
Love breaks boundaries and destroys hate. It’s amazing to hear what people express when they start describing why they hold to and follow a faith.
Sometimes there needs to be a follow up statement that says “we will both not be talking about what we dislike in each others religions”. As satan quickly try’s to distort relationships in this way.
What I notice about Evangelicals is an I love Jesus more attitude. For me I worship the God of Israel made flesh in the meridian of time, I believe with all my heart in His life, crucifixion and resurrection. I absolutely believe that the gift of Salvation and Eternal life and forgiveness of sin comes only through Jesus Christ. Accepting his gift of redemption gives me the opportunity to serve Him in the temple and in my life, serving him by serving his children and repenting daily when necessary is a wonderful gift of the Atonement. If I sin I don't run out to help people to hopefully be forgiven, I know where to go to repent and learn from my mistakes it 's only through HIM not my works.
QUESTION: One thing I have never understood about Evangelicals. Why do you preach to convert people to accept Christ if they have already accepted Christ and live their lives in way where they would already be "saved" according to your definition of it?
The answer I suspect is similar as to why LDS proselytize Evangelicals who accept Christ and live their lives accordingly.
@@mitchellscott1843 In the LDS Church we believe that Jesus Christ restored His church through Joseph Smith with the same Priesthood Authority he gave to Peter and the Apostles. This is why the full name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Since we believe our church to be The Church of Christ founded with His authority, we also believe that anyone who has not been baptized with the authority of the Holy Priesthood of Jesus Christ to become a member of His Church, needs to be baptized with His priesthood authority to enter into The Kingdom of the Father. This is also why we do baptismal work for the dead in our temples, so that those who were not able to accept Jesus and be baptized in this life with His authority, can do so in life after death.
Because LDS define god's nature differently. Ask any former LDS who have converted to biblical Christianity and they will tell you they were worshipping a false man-made God when they were LDS.
@@TysonGibby So iow you don't consider Evangelicals baptism to be valid and as a extension their faith to be just like Evangelicals (and Christendom at large) don't consider your baptism to be valid nor your doctrinal and ecclesiastical claims. Both groups evangelize the other for the same reason.
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 I'm aware of the many and fundamental differences of theology I just have a hard time with the victim card being played whenever they (ironically) complain about Christians seeking to convert them.
I think your first point is flawed
We have no beliefs that are contrary to the Bible. We have beliefs that are contrary to evangelicals limited understanding/interpretation of the Bible but all our beliefs are compatible with the Bible.
He means you believe in things that are opposite what the Bible says that’s all he is saying
@@parkerjensen7698And what we are saying makes a lot more sense
We believe the Bible is fully trustworthy when it’s read by righteous people
Protestants go too far and believe in interpretations of unrighteous people / doctrines of demons
Our view is much better
8th articles of faith
@@parkerjensen7698proverbs 18:17
@@EricSmyth2Christ as an LDS I can say saying “our view is better than yours” is not the most diplomatic approach. It sounds egotistical, even if that isn’t how you meant it. It’s like two kids on the playground saying, oh yeeeaaahhhh, well my dad’s bigger than yours.
It’s more constructive to articulate doctrine, without pride, purely to elucidate a person’s understanding. Even if they don’t agree.
To create dialogue, and build bridges.
Like Jeff does. He doesn’t take the stance his view is “better”.
I love your comment. Members of the church of Jesus Christ of lader day saints believe in the holy Bible better than any other church I have ever seen . Their understanding is fabulous.their believe in ore potential is the greatest. Who would want to limit their growth and potential? Thank you .
Well said. ❤
Thank you for this great video.
It is not just receiving Revelation, it is the interpretation of scripture that is different. I joined the Church of Jesus Christ because of the Bible and the truth that I found within it. The Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints is consistent with what I found in the Bible. So to say that we depend on Revelation modern-day Revelation to dictate our Doctrine even if it's not in the Bible is a false narrative
Actually it's precisely accurate, unfortunately.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire explain
@@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 Because LDS doctrine plainly contradicts the Bible. It just does.
And rather than acknowledging that, the LDS response generally, without any evidence to the particulars will claim mistranslation or it was just lost from the Bible.
I'm no longer LDS and I'm not Christian, so I've no dog in this particular race.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire the words are accurate, sure, but they go back to 400 AD. Also, even if they were never changed prior to that, the translation errors have less to do with word by word translation and more to do with:
1- The past is a foreign country in which no one truly understands the cultural nuance and language to a degree of true understanding. Metaphor and symbols lose meaning and become replaced with literal understanding that was never intended.
2- Translations of one language to the next also lose meaning and function. If you don’t believe me, type in a scripture to google translate and have it translated into another language a few times then back to english. Here is a scripture that comes from Isaiah as quoted in the Book of Mormon.
It states:
“18 All the kings of the nations, yea, all of them, lie in glory, every one of them in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and the remnant of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet.”
Now I will translate that into Greek, then Chinese, then English and you will see how much meaning got twisted, left out, or changed:
“The kings of every land, yea, all the kings, lie down in glory, every man in his palace.
Throw them away with the sword, the stone over the pit.”
As you can see, it loses meaning and while some remains, it still misses the nuance of important things. That is the issue with the Bible. With no prophets and apostles on Earth to declare and clarify God’s word, it gets lost.
@@zionmama150why do lds hate the Bible? I read over and over about how lds hold the Bible to be scripture but to me it feels like they put the Bible at the bottom of the list. The Book of Mormon being at the top because they believe it to be the most correct book (which it isn’t btw)
But are so skeptical of it. They constantly criticize it , constantly try and down play it.
Much of this has to do with what you’re being taught at your wards. I attended an lds meetinghouse for the first time a few months ago and the talk the person was giving he really downplayed and talked down on the Bible about how it was unreliable, mistranslated and not as important as the Book of Mormon . Those were his exact words.
Try and not be influenced by men but by the Holy Spirit which is God.
Christ is risen! Indeed, he is risen!!!🙏☦️❤️
Another great video, great points!
This was good except a few things we would feel is important to clarify...
It is a core belief we hold too as Latter-Day Saints that the Holy Spirit gives us strength and enables us - that is part of how the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ works and that His Grace is much more than just giving us the ability to fulfill the Father's will. Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins so it would be impossible for us to return to the Father's presence without His sacrifice on our behalf; We all fall short of the glory of God and Jesus is the only way we can become clean again each time we repent, as if our sins never happened, so that we can abide the Father's presence. Our beliefs do not contradict the Bible as you have suggested - the Bible says we must do the will of the Father to enter His Kingdom. The Father's will includes his commandments and has always included making covenants with him.
Also, as you know, we do baptisms for the dead which shows we believe Christ's Grace extends to all even if they never heard, knew, or understood the gospel of Jesus Christ during their mortal life before they died and that they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and His gospel after death. When we say the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ we mean it is truly enabling to bring all to the presence of the Father, not just to one of the degrees of glory, but to the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest Kingdom, for anyone who desires to follow Jesus Christ to become like Him and accept His gift that pays for their sins, whether in this life or the next.
We believe Jesus Christ was and is the 2nd member of the Godhead so it is clear we believe in the Godhood of Jesus. We believe Jesus was Jehovah who created all things by direction of the Father, which the Father is over, and spoke to the prophets, in behalf of the Father, so we believe Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the Holy One of Isreal. Jesus is God (God the Son) who is the Son of God (God the Father). They with God the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead which are one in closeness, unity, love, and in the purposes for mankind, who work together as a team as 3 seperate, unique, individuals. There are many scriptures in the Bible that support this so our beliefs do not contradict the Bible here either. None of our beliefs, nor the Book of Mormon, contradict the Bible, even though others interpret the Bible differently than us. We have simply recieved *more* information and guidance, including clarity of the meanings in the Bible, from our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ by His living prophets and apostles, as ongoing revelation (as you touched on, thank you), in the same way God has always done in every dispensation throughout time while the people do not reject the prophets which causes a falling away at the end of every dispensation. That is where the Bible and *all* scriptures have always come from. The records from each dispensation. The only difference is this is the last dispensation of the fulness of times with the restitution of all things as prophesied in the Bible would come in the last days. As you know, we believe that restoration has occurred and that we are living in the last dispensation of the fullness of times that will usher in the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.
Thank you Pastor Jeff when you share truths about our church. I'm still hoping your intentions are sincere to fight criticism with curiosity and that real understanding can be made between our faiths. I also hope what I shared helped to dispell some misconceptions about our faith which is what this channel is meant to be about. 🙏
Well done Pastor
Clarifiction. In the LDS Church being "saved" refers not just to a general state of salvation, but to the specific goal of attaining the highest degree of glory and eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom.
Whereas the doctrine of Universalism in religion refers to the belief that all people will eventually be saved and reconciled with God, rather than some being condemned to eternal punishment
I think what you have said is an important distinction. Latter-Day Saints believe all humans born with a body are saved from physical death. Salvation from spiritual death (separation from God) is tiered. People in the Terrestrial kingdom are saved from physical death and also are partially saved from spiritual death to a lesser degree since they may be in the presence of the Son and the Holy Ghost. When we say baptism is a saving ordinance, we mean it allows people to re-enter the Father’s presence in the Celestial Kingdom.
I have a coeworker who's LDS and this channel has really helped me in how I can communicate with him in the differences of our beliefs. Please pray for opportunities to have more conversations about the Bible at what is taught
I use this channel as well to learn how to communicate to my Christian (Methodist, Protestant, Evangelical) friends. Many don’t really understand why LDS believe in or that we do believe in *ALL* of the Bible and use it to back up 100% of our beliefs.
I wish we could all just teach what we believe in to one another and not what we think other religions believe in when having discussions.
@@dcarts5616one problem is that many believers in any church don't necessarily know what their church believes and teaches. I've had to teach LDS what their church teaches before I can explain what the Bible teaches, and I know many evangelicals who never read more of the Bible than what is read on Sunday mornings, sadly. Pretty hard to have a meaningful relationship with God if one never spends time with him!
Paster Jeffs, as an active latter-day saint, most of us don't have any tensions with you or others who describe themselves as Evangelicals. I don't think we view you as having a different Jesus or somehow having problems. I think the doctrine of Christ just teaches us to share with everyone the gospel and to add to the rich traditions and understanding that you or others may bring. We view Evangelicals as great, God-fearing people who are doing wonderful things. We have some different viewpoints on things that we believe God has revealed to the world that add to the richness of the gospel and help our understanding even more, and so we share that. But we don't feel any tension to Evangelicals, Catholics, or any other protestants. It is not that we don't have strong beliefs in the doctrines we believe God has given us, but we know that He loves all His children and He has added to the clarity of the doctrines found in the Bible, which we would say we believe in, but might interpret a bit differently than you--similar to how you likely interpret the same Bible a bit differently than the Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, or Anglicans, etc.
"I don't think we view you as having a different Jesus or somehow having problems. "
For the most part, we simply view other Christians as missing information. We dont like their organizations, nor do we think highly of their creeds, per se, but when it comes to the people, we see everyone as children of God.
16:03 Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus is Fully God too. But Jesus was given his power from his Father. You can’t be given something that you always had.
Matthew 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Ephesians 3: 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, John 3:13.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before, John 6:62.
Before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58.
I came forth from the Father, John 16:28.
glorify thou me … with the glory which I had with thee before the world was, John 17:5.
All things are delivered to me of my Father, Luke 10:22.
Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand, John 3:35.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Romans 14: 9
Thank you for sharing your view.
At least he acknowledges that LDS members behave better than evangelicals.
Let's keep letting that light shine!!
Go Saints!
Very well done.
I see the grace and works conversation as similar to the chicken or the egg one. We all believe that we're saved through the Atonement of Christ.
If I understand you correctly, Protestants believe that the grace of Jesus Christ through the Atonement causes us to be a righteous person, if we just let it. Then we'll want to do those good works.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches that we are saved by grace after all we can do. We work for personal righteousness, but of course we all fall short. The grace of Jesus Christ brings us the rest of the way there, but also supports us in our life struggles and our repentance along the way. Ordinances (and the covenants we make through them) like baptism and temple work help us accept that grace more fully into our lives, and bring us greater power to avoid and resist temptation, to do good works, and to become more righteous.
I guess only see a difference in what come first.
You explain convenants and ordinances as necessary to salvation in Latter-Day Saint belief. While that's true, it's because they're instruments of grace.
Maybe an analogy will help me get my words in order. If we're walking along a highway, headed back to our Father, we're doing what we can. We've got an old paper map. We are headed in the right direction, we want to be with Him, and we know He wants us to be there with Him too. Getting baptized, and making that covenant to keep the commandments and always remember Jesus is like getting a ride in a car, one that has a GPS. We're still on the same highway, headed the right direction, but now we have accepted the the ride (grace) and the direction of the GPS (through the Holy Ghost).
The analogy breaks down little when we think about it in terms of speed, though. Getting baptized certainly doesn't get us through life any faster! Nor does it mean that there will never be accidents, detours, roadblocks, etc. It just means we've got a lot of support, help, and guidance that wasn't there nearly as strongly as before.
So I have a question. The Bible makes it clear that baptism is required to enter into the Kingdom of God. You don't seem to believe that ordinances and covenants are necessary at all for us to return to our Father. So what is the significance of baptism for you? The protestant churches that I'm familiar with all practice baptism, in one form or another. So do Catholic and Orthodox churches. How about Communion (which, as far as I understand, is the equivalent of the Sacrament in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). For me, the Sacrament is a renewing of the baptismal covenant. It's an opportunity to evaluate my life and repent (which is a constant necessity!) What does it mean for you, if it doesn't involve a convenant?
Paster Jef, out of love. I would like to encourage you to pray with sincere heart and real intent to ask God if the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living church of Jesus Christ. I know you will receive the answer. My cousin told me that one day I will become a member of the church and it came true as I pray and ask God with it 😍
Your message with all due respect is part of the problem with this attempt at respectful interfaith dialogue. You truly believe your faith is the ONLY way. If you don’t convert then you lack a sincere heart and real intent. This same message has been delivered to me by every LDS missionary. It’s kind of arrogant and presumptuous. The problem is that Evangelicals and LDS will NEVER treat the opposite faith as equal. They treat the other’s faith as INFERIOR.
@@Zeett09 Respect has nothing to do with to do with pretending two things are equal when they aren’t. It’s about being kind.
I can believe the LDS church is the Lord's true restored gospel and at the same time believe that Pastor Jeff will not receive a positive answer to that prayer. My thinking is that what he is doing is directed by the Spirit and he is fulfilling his calling. If he were to receive a positive answer and actually join the church, he would no longer be able to accomplish what he is doing. I wish we would stop being so black and white about these things.
@@sampson1952 I COMPLETELY agree with you! I think that Pastor Jeff is absolutely a man of God and more Christlike than probably most of the people I know in the LDS faith. Jeff is doing a GREAT work in bringing together and finding common ground with those of different beliefs. He's doing something that I think is very difficult to do for the average LDS/Evangelical person due to time/knowledge/truly understanding constraints; That is bringing the children of God together in love and understanding one another. If we all could embrace each others differences and accept them as human, and not inferior, imagine what the world would be like!
God revealed to me that the current LDS church and its leadership are in apostasy from Him. They have strayed from the Bible as well as what is taught in the Book of Mormon. They have done what Christ instructed them to not do in 3 Nephi 11 when he gave them the Doctrine of Christ and said whoever adds or removed from this doctrine is not of Me. The spirit taught me that the iron rod from Lehi’s dream are the scriptures and the church teaches that the greatest symbol of church membership is the temple. They now give 8 year olds when they are baptized a ring with the temple on it. They give young men and women other “emblems of belonging” that contain images of the temple on them. We are fulfilling this prophecy of walking in the strange path that is headed towards a great and spacious temple. The leaders call it the covenant path and it is a path of apostasy from God. Lastly, our own scriptures in D&C 64 warn us that when Zion is established, which hasn’t happened yet that “38 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion.
39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.”
Very well said! Spoken with the utmost kindness, understanding, and grace! Former faithful Mormon here, now a saved evangelical Christian as of 10 years ago (Praise God!). I've enjoyed watching your videos and following your journey from the beginning. I look forward watching more! This is my first time commenting. Hope that we can meet in person someday. 😀
This is very honest and helpful. 👍
Great video😍👍🏼👍🏼
HEY. Am I wrong or dont you have more Book of Mormon reading video experiences that you need to post?
Working on it. 😬
@@HelloSaints great news!
@@HelloSaints cant wait. Pay close attention to the words and Doctrine of Moroni son if Mormon, in the Book if Ether . 1 Faith and Miracles 3:6 Divine Revelation 3:9-16, Pride and downfall of societies 11:18-23 repentance and redemption 7:23-26.
Great video BTW! One of the best parts of my sabbath day. ❤❤❤❤❤
Love it if you would cover your opinion about who wrote the bom
On the topic of faith versus works, I think part of the problem is both Latter-Day Saints and Evangelicals often misunderstand some of the scriptures on this topic. For example, Latter-Day Saints often quote Nephi as writing: "It is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." When they quote this scripture, they are saying, "See, we believe we're saved by grace." Evangelicals often quote the same scripture as proof that the LDS Church believes we are saved, at least in part, by works. That's what both sides often take as the meaning of "after all we can do." "After all we can do" is understood to mean, on the 1,000 mile path to redemption, my efforts took me 10 feet and grace takes me the rest of the way.
Unfortunately, both sides are misunderstanding what people at the time of Joseph Smith meant by the phrase, "after all we can do." The people of that day used the phrase to mean "despite", as in, "Despite my best efforts, I didn't make it to the meeting on time." They would have understood Nephi to be saying, "Despite all we can do, we're saved by grace (because all our efforts availed us nothing).
On the Evangelical side, they often quote Paul on how works avail nothing. Grace does everything. What they (and LDS, too) fail to inquire is what did Paul mean by 'works'. In most of the instances when Paul is referring to works in this context, he's referring to keeping the Mosaic law. Did converts to the church need to be circumcised? No, Paul taught salvation does not come by such works. It comes by grace. But Paul baptized. Why did he do that if baptism is a dead work that's not required for salvation? Why did Jesus teach baptism was required for salvation if its only a nice thing to do?
To answer those last two questions, let's consider a hypothetical individual. She's a woman in her 60's who has lived a rough life. She's a chain smoker, swears like a sailor, and has never darkened the door of a church in her entire life. Yet, in a spiritual crisis she meets the missionaries and comes to believe in Jesus Christ with all her heart. She is born again and agrees to be baptized. Question: When do Latter-Day Saints believe that she is 'saved', is it after her baptism, or after she's received all the temple ordinances? Answer: None of the above. She's 'saved' when she was born again and became converted. It's not when she quits swearing or after she gets baptized. If that's the case, do Latter-Day Saints really believe in a works-based salvation if we believe someone is saved when they accept Christ -- even if that's before they receive the ordinances we proclaim are essential for salvation? The answer is we do not believe in a works-based salvation.
We believe ordinances are required for salvation, but the ordinances do not do the work of salvation. Salvation comes as a free gift. Everyone will receive the ordinances. What will distinguish those who are saved from those who are not is the condition of their heart -- has it been changed to love Christ and accept Him as Savior or not?
@DKWalser, did you read Dr. Dan McClellan's paper on 2 Nephi 25:23? I agree with you and I'm not even LDS.
Isn't that a contraction to say ordinances are required for salvation if she's saved when she's born again? I think what you mean is that ordinances are required for exaltation?
@@janetspiritofthelivinggod6328 No, it's not a contradiction. And, no, I didn't conflate salvation with exaltation. To God all time is the same. Even before the Son completed his atoning sacrifice, he was able to use the power of the Atonement to forgive sins. So, too, a person can be 'saved' even before she has received all the ordinances of salvation. What's important is the character of the person's heart, not whether their paper work has been completed. God knows their paper work will be completed. Everyone's will be done.
I would love to see a video with you and David Boice chatting.
Excellent points but one. Evangelicals say they love Latter-day Saints so much that they feel compelled to show up at General Conference and temple open houses and such, in a genuine effort to save them from what they feel is the path to hell. But I never see these Evangelicals outside a mosque or synagogue with "Mohamed lied" picket signs. So, either Evangelicals only fervently love Latter-day Saints, or Muslims and Jews aren't going to hell...the bottom line is Evangelical agitators show up to LDS events because they are allowed to do so. I question their professed "deep love" of the Latter-day Saints.
Every time you explain the differing views of grace, I end up more confused. You say that the LDS say that works come before salvation, and that Evangelicals say that works are evidence of having been saved. Those both seems to have the same end state: an inextricable link between faith and works, and the acceptance of Christ in our lives manifesting as actions that are in line with His teachings.
If that is indeed the case, then why is this concept foreign to Evangelicals? Does it have to do with long-standing traditions of doctrinal presentation and a resulting belief that Latter-day Saints are putting the cart before the horse in believing that works must come first? Because that is not at all what I've been taught as a Latter-day Saint.
I agree 100% with your comment. Every time Jeff goes to explain the differences on grace, it doesn't seem to be different. He says, LDS believe that grace is (insert sermon), but evangelicals believe, (then he says what we believe all over again.) Is the big hang-up that Latter-day Saints require ordinances for salvation? Are the evangelicals saying that we believe that His grace is not sufficient because we require ordinances, and therefore we don't believe in grace?
@retireearlyrich basically. Ordinances in the evangelical realm are an afterthought or an ancillary aspect, not a mechanism of wholehearted and sincere growth and development through the Atonement to become better.
Here's the rub:
Can you be saved from sin (salvation as defined by LDS and Evangelicals), ultimately, without being baptized?
The LDS answer is no. Thus, baptism for the dead, and part of the need of Temples in LDS teaching.
That's a works based salvation. That doesn't mean LDS reject the atoning of the cross, etc., but LDS doctrine is a works based salvation. You must be baptized (unless you are an innocent child), to be saved from sin, in the LDS context.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire without the Atonement, baptism means nothing.
@@jessekoeven3757 I never said LDS don't believe in the Atonement. I'm merely quoting doctrine regarding baptism.
It's required for salvation from sin, in LDS doctrine / scripture.
Wow, this video just boosted my respect for you. You are a man of God and your approach to my faith has made me feel very loved. It's difficult for me to hear other faith groups mischaracterize our beliefs and then demonize us. You take great care to articulate and understand our doctrine and how we function as a people, which is very beautiful.
I really appreciate your commentary on this, and your compassionate view of missionaries. I'm glad you finally included sister missionaries! These days, there are nearly as many women missionaries as men, unlike when I served a mission 30 years ago, when we were only about 10% of the total. I would only add one more thing about missionaries. While we'd love to talk to you in your home or anywhere else, if you're not interested, just let us know. If you ask us not to come back, we won't. It would be a waste of your time and ours, and might even cause hard feelings. NO missionary is going to try to force their way in to your home. There is no need for dodging or anger. We appreciate frankness. We'd love to talk with you, but if you don't wish it, don't keep stringing us along just to avoid saying no either. We'd rather you let us know your true feelings than have you start ghosting us. Even if your feelings are, "We just had an amazing discussion, but this is a lot and I don't know if I'm ready to commit further! Give me some space! We can talk again in a week when I've had time to process and decide what I believe." Or "We just had an amazing discussion, but I'm sticking to my own beliefs. I'd love for us to talk again someday, but I'm not going to go to your church or be baptized. Look me up in a few months if you have time, or maybe we can be friends when you've finished your mission."
My experience with the LDS missionaries is that they only came to see me upon request and have been very gentle and respectful of my “boundaries”.
I was working as a volunteer and a major problem occurred. I prayed fervently for help. The situation was resolved. As i shared my testimony of prayer with another volunteer who was proudly a Christian, imagine my horror when he basically muttered as an aside that I prayed to a different God. I am trying to be a good person, a follower of Christ, and get so sick and tired of this garbage. I've had neighbors suddenly stop talking to me when they found out i was LDS. The evangelicals who accept me as i am and acknowledge me as a fellow Christian are in the vast minority. I'm kind of over it and now their behavior causes me to question their Christianity.
I am sorry about those experiences.
The leaders of the LDS church have said that God is an exalted man from another planet that had to work his way to Godhood, lives near a star named Kolob, practices polygamy, is the literal father of Jesus Christ, damns people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy (D&C 132), and threatened to destroy Emma if she didn't abide by her husband's adultery. D&C 132:54, 64
With all due respect, that's a different God.
The true and living God spoke the universe into existence from nothing, including the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from and the star Kolob that he lives near.
The true and living God offers forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation for free if you are interested. That is how much God loves you! ❤️
Please read the New Testament as a child. 🙏🏽
So if I pray to God, my prayers are somehow diverted to a false God? There is only one God, the Father of us ALL! Regardless of what we call/ name Him, we all pray/ worship the ONE and only God. People of different faiths all define God according to their belief system. That doesn't somehow create divergent Gods that exist for different people to worship. I don't care if you are Catholic, evangelical, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc when you send out a heartfelt prayer, it only goes to one place. How I see God and how you see God is moot because there is only one.
@@teresasmith5321 There is only one true God. There are many false gods. Hinduism has 330 million gods. Mormonism has potentially billions of gods.
Your prayers are not diverted. They go to the God that you believe in. Latter-day Saints worship an exalted man from another planet that had to work his way to Godhood, lives near a star named Kolob, practices polygamy, and damns people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy. (D&C 132) The LDS Heavenly Father requires them to join the LDS church, go through a worthiness interview, get a temple recommend, go through an Endowment Ceremony, believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, believe the Book of Mormon is true, learn secret grips, tokens, signs, handshakes, and passwords, get married, do temple work, wear temple garments, etc..
That's not the true and living God.
Who created the planet that the LDS Heavenly Father came from?
Who created all his wives?
Who created the star Kolob?
I hope I can meet you one day! (I live in utah) Maybe one day you could have a "Meet and greet" (or do a symposium expo) etc - with other speakers etc.(?) They just had a faith expo a few weeks ago (I believe Kwaku and Hannah Stoddard were there too)!
Ultimately, the “location” in heaven we obtain depends upon the kind of person we are willing to become, the degree to which we are willing followers of God/Christ. As long as we are pointed in the right direction and keep moving forward, keep learning and changing, eventually we’re going to be worthy of the highest degree of glory. It is only us that stops our progress, when _we_ say “not an inch more!”
Really good!