The opponent's donk bet line was effective at minimizing fold equity and building a pot however the trade off was that the caller was given pot odds to call with a strong draw. What do you think of the opponent's line postflop?
I like donk bets when it's a board that will check through a lot of the time. A board with both a king and a jack is not that type of board. Maybe a donk bet makes sense if a check raise looks too strong? I think it's fine to check raise a small bet on this board, and I think it's fine to check call a large bet on this board, so I don't think that a donk bet was necessary.
Donk bet to build a pot (and bet for value because caller could have KK in his range, but when he flats w/ CO behind him I think we could rule that out). On the turn however, he's GOTTA bet larger to get at least one of them to fold because now there are additional draws. I see this all the time in $1/$2 where people have 2nd pair or the 2nd nuts and but smaller for fear of someone having the bigger set.
@@gabrielrockmanHe basically got exactly what he wanted stringing along two hands with some value and equity but that he knew he was better than, betting small enough to keep them in large enough to build the pot and get at least one call on the river. I think his biggest fear was checking around or a big raise and losing one player then the other player not calling the river jam.
A donk bet on the flop in a multiway pot of at least 4 players is usually a sign of a strong hand. At least two pair, so I was thinking K5 or better. Agreed he does have to bet bigger on the turn with a lot of draws out there to get the cutoff or hero to fold and to protect his own hand.
Villains line is textbook Doyle, right outta Super System. He said if you ain't losing a lotta money with sets, you ain't playing them right. He advocated leading into the pf raiser to induce a raise, figuring that you ain't making any money if they missed, and can build a huge pot if they have a big hand. WP by villain.
The turn analysis is one of the best I've seen anywhere, hands down. Love the content Bart! Btw any chance you'll do tournament analysis even as a cash game channel primarily?
Like Bart mentioned at the beginning of the video, some players wont adjust when there are straddles, which is understandable. BB has JJ first to act and has to pay 150pre instead of the usual 15-20. It is possible that his strategy was mine setting at this point. CO has position and might be thinking the same as the BB hit or ditch.
POWER OF THE DONK BET! Not in a million years would the nit in CO (who flatted AK pre) put BB on a set with a triple donk. If BB goes for the flop check/raise, he probably wins the minimum because it looks so strong. Very well played by BB.
I love donk betting sets. I bet small as if I am trying to block. If the board gets wet by the turn, I will bet larger, but my real hope is to get raised on the lfop and then check raise the turn or river.. By the time a guy with top-top or an overpair realizes what is going on he has burned many chips.
^^ this. I believe he had AK there all day long. You guys gotta get off your computer screens/solvers and start playing live. People don’t play PF like you think they would, that’s what makes cash so profitable, no??
I got got by a donk shove. I raised to 12 in a 1-3 game pre flop with AJs from middle position and got called in a spot or 2. The flop was A73 rainbow and my opponent in the Big Blind shoved for something like 70 big blinds. I leveled myself and decided he was up to some BS. He had A7 off, which was an awful call to start with, but it sure worked well. Maybe I just suck at NLH.
At those stakes, if they want to get all the money in, and there are no draws, they just have it every time. Yesterday I was playing £1/£2 and back to back I had KK and AA. First hand I raise to £10 and get called by 5,3 off suit. Second time I get called by 9,8 off. Both times they flop trips, and of course they take all my money.
One of the major differences in my game is in a previous poker life, I jam that Turn or I Fold. I would never just call. But now a days I am only jamming if I really think a player is timid and will fold the top of his range.
I cannot grasp your comment. Usually, posts are about hypothetically being the Hero; but Hero has no opportunity to act on the river in this hand. The villain did jam, and could not fold being first to act. I also cannot see how the 2nd Villain [the CO] has a jam or fold opportunity on the river here.
Aces wouldn’t have over limped AK wouldn’t have either if they’re a thinking player. *I wrote this with the video paused right after hero folded I literally had BB w JJ thinking he just flatted the raise to reevaluate on flop I’d have too squeezed it’s just too tough facing 4 other players oop, but flatting isn’t the worse thing ever but yeah I was thinking JJ
I'd say that villain played a Sklansky line, which may or may not be GTO, but is never a bad approach from a practical standpoint against human players. Actually, I think Sklansky would have donked out bigger, but then we're talking about a bet sizing debate rather than choosing a line. Back in the Sklansky days, I would have donked 1/2 to 2/3 pot, now 1/3 to 1/2, maybe 40%. How many people have run the numbers for what to do in a 5-way pot single raised to 7.5BB, against a 40% donk lead? Not many, I suspect. I think that there is a good case for putting people into spots they cannot plausibly have studied, and where even if they had, it was in the context of GTO play, and your bet size can signal that it was not arrived at from GTO thinking. There can be a very gently sloped curve around the peak, optimal bet size, even with perfect play in reaction to it. The small reduction in EV versus true GTO play, is then more than made up for by reducing the chance of perfect play in reaction. People make big blunders when you get them away from what they know, and in this case, it is compounded by all the fears of what players behind will do.
Very interesting. I wonder if hero would have called larger sizing on the flop. I actually thought his call here was marginal with a player behind him.
I limp with raising hands from early positiin cause Im not sure yet how much I actually wanna pay to play the hand. Plus, when someone in late position attempts to squeeze, if I call, that person becomes really committed to rep'n a monster (and they 90% of the time end up rep'n the monster under the bed rather than an actual one).
Because of the way that game is structured, pots tend to balloon out of control. Players who lose whatever money they came with leave the game, which is bad for business.
The uncapped double board PLO bomb pots are bad for the card room due to the higher potential of multiple players losing their entire stack in one hand. The card room makes more money the longer players stay as their rake or timed pay is limited per time or per number of hands played.
AK and JJ and neither one 4-bets pre-flop? God, that's horrible. Although I don't entirely believe the cutoff has AK. If he tanked and begrudgingly called the river shove then probably had like K10 maybe KQ.
KT (especially off-suit; either 3bet or fold) would be a horrendously bad call pre and post-flop OTR. Then again I would 3 bet AK so what the fuck do I know.
Yeah I’m just getting out the way on the flop unless maybe I know BB is a complete maniac AND I know CO is nitty (and so won’t put me in a terrible spot by raising unless they have 2 pair+).
This would work majority of the time because most players aren’t capable of donking a set there and will have KQ there 90% of the time, and will fold to pressure.
Like Bart mentioned at the beginning of the video, some players wont adjust when there are straddles, which is understandable. BB has JJ first to act and has to pay 150pre instead of the usual 15-20. It is possible that his strategy was mine setting at this point. CO has position and might be thinking the same as the BB hit or ditch.
The opponent's donk bet line was effective at minimizing fold equity and building a pot however the trade off was that the caller was given pot odds to call with a strong draw. What do you think of the opponent's line postflop?
I like donk bets when it's a board that will check through a lot of the time. A board with both a king and a jack is not that type of board.
Maybe a donk bet makes sense if a check raise looks too strong? I think it's fine to check raise a small bet on this board, and I think it's fine to check call a large bet on this board, so I don't think that a donk bet was necessary.
Donk bet to build a pot (and bet for value because caller could have KK in his range, but when he flats w/ CO behind him I think we could rule that out). On the turn however, he's GOTTA bet larger to get at least one of them to fold because now there are additional draws. I see this all the time in $1/$2 where people have 2nd pair or the 2nd nuts and but smaller for fear of someone having the bigger set.
@@gabrielrockmanHe basically got exactly what he wanted stringing along two hands with some value and equity but that he knew he was better than, betting small enough to keep them in large enough to build the pot and get at least one call on the river.
I think his biggest fear was checking around or a big raise and losing one player then the other player not calling the river jam.
@@TheDjcarter1966 But both of the other players probably would have bet their hands anyways if he hadn't donked the flop.
A donk bet on the flop in a multiway pot of at least 4 players is usually a sign of a strong hand. At least two pair, so I was thinking K5 or better. Agreed he does have to bet bigger on the turn with a lot of draws out there to get the cutoff or hero to fold and to protect his own hand.
Villains line is textbook Doyle, right outta Super System. He said if you ain't losing a lotta money with sets, you ain't playing them right. He advocated leading into the pf raiser to induce a raise, figuring that you ain't making any money if they missed, and can build a huge pot if they have a big hand. WP by villain.
Except JJ should be raising pre most times.
The turn analysis is one of the best I've seen anywhere, hands down. Love the content Bart! Btw any chance you'll do tournament analysis even as a cash game channel primarily?
Like Bart mentioned at the beginning of the video, some players wont adjust when there are straddles, which is understandable.
BB has JJ first to act and has to pay 150pre instead of the usual 15-20. It is possible that his strategy was mine setting at this point.
CO has position and might be thinking the same as the BB hit or ditch.
POWER OF THE DONK BET! Not in a million years would the nit in CO (who flatted AK pre) put BB on a set with a triple donk. If BB goes for the flop check/raise, he probably wins the minimum because it looks so strong. Very well played by BB.
I love donk betting sets. I bet small as if I am trying to block. If the board gets wet by the turn, I will bet larger, but my real hope is to get raised on the lfop and then check raise the turn or river.. By the time a guy with top-top or an overpair realizes what is going on he has burned many chips.
@@ligafftheindifferent3495 what if you have a hand like 44 on T94ddx? Are you still leading small and giving all sorts of draws a cheap turn?
Live cash players aren’t playing ak aggressively most of the time. They’re happy with flatting pre then putting in money if the boards hit
Denying equity?
@@foozles say what?
AK has to 4-bet pre-flop there in that spot. Not ideal playing AK in a 5-handed pot where it could have easily been 7-handed.
@@ThePatriots010304 agreed
^^ this. I believe he had AK there all day long. You guys gotta get off your computer screens/solvers and start playing live. People don’t play PF like you think they would, that’s what makes cash so profitable, no??
Hero had the “too many outs syndrome” on the turn!
I got got by a donk shove.
I raised to 12 in a 1-3 game pre flop with AJs from middle position and got called in a spot or 2. The flop was A73 rainbow and my opponent in the Big Blind shoved for something like 70 big blinds.
I leveled myself and decided he was up to some BS. He had A7 off, which was an awful call to start with, but it sure worked well.
Maybe I just suck at NLH.
At those stakes, if they want to get all the money in, and there are no draws, they just have it every time. Yesterday I was playing £1/£2 and back to back I had KK and AA. First hand I raise to £10 and get called by 5,3 off suit. Second time I get called by 9,8 off. Both times they flop trips, and of course they take all my money.
One of the major differences in my game is in a previous poker life, I jam that Turn or I Fold. I would never just call. But now a days I am only jamming if I really think a player is timid and will fold the top of his range.
I cannot grasp your comment. Usually, posts are about hypothetically being the Hero; but Hero has no opportunity to act on the river in this hand. The villain did jam, and could not fold being first to act. I also cannot see how the 2nd Villain [the CO] has a jam or fold opportunity on the river here.
@EllieBanks333 I ment to write "Turn" not River. Sorry about that. I fixed it
@@danielmeuler2877 Ahhhh, that makes more sense.
In TCH RGV there are unlimited straddles and bombpots every dealer change.
Aces wouldn’t have over limped AK wouldn’t have either if they’re a thinking player. *I wrote this with the video paused right after hero folded I literally had BB w JJ thinking he just flatted the raise to reevaluate on flop I’d have too squeezed it’s just too tough facing 4 other players oop, but flatting isn’t the worse thing ever but yeah I was thinking JJ
Before the reveal I’m going to say it feels like the BB is on a suicide mission
I'd say that villain played a Sklansky line, which may or may not be GTO, but is never a bad approach from a practical standpoint against human players. Actually, I think Sklansky would have donked out bigger, but then we're talking about a bet sizing debate rather than choosing a line. Back in the Sklansky days, I would have donked 1/2 to 2/3 pot, now 1/3 to 1/2, maybe 40%.
How many people have run the numbers for what to do in a 5-way pot single raised to 7.5BB, against a 40% donk lead? Not many, I suspect. I think that there is a good case for putting people into spots they cannot plausibly have studied, and where even if they had, it was in the context of GTO play, and your bet size can signal that it was not arrived at from GTO thinking.
There can be a very gently sloped curve around the peak, optimal bet size, even with perfect play in reaction to it. The small reduction in EV versus true GTO play, is then more than made up for by reducing the chance of perfect play in reaction. People make big blunders when you get them away from what they know, and in this case, it is compounded by all the fears of what players behind will do.
"putting people in spots they cannot have plausibly studied" is great advice
This is a brilliant comment.
Very interesting. I wonder if hero would have called larger sizing on the flop. I actually thought his call here was marginal with a player behind him.
I limp with raising hands from early positiin cause Im not sure yet how much I actually wanna pay to play the hand. Plus, when someone in late position attempts to squeeze, if I call, that person becomes really committed to rep'n a monster (and they 90% of the time end up rep'n the monster under the bed rather than an actual one).
see as an online player flatting AK is just unreal to me
1-2 NL double board PLO is so fun tho
I think fi I lived in TX I would play 1-2 NL simply because the PLO bomb pot action would be so amazing.
This is why a straddle is usually bad for the game. People are barely comfortable at 2/5. AK and JJ played that horrible pre flop. JJ is a squeeze 100
is it still a donk when they take the betting lead?
I'm not an experienced player - why would it be bad to play uncapped double board PLO bomb pots?
Because of the way that game is structured, pots tend to balloon out of control. Players who lose whatever money they came with leave the game, which is bad for business.
He said it would be bad for the room. I guess because many players would loose a lot quickly and the games would dry up, but I’m inexperienced to.
The uncapped double board PLO bomb pots are bad for the card room due to the higher potential of multiple players losing their entire stack in one hand. The card room makes more money the longer players stay as their rake or timed pay is limited per time or per number of hands played.
@@brianbasham3517 that makes sense, thanks man!
He has Q10os, classic donk bet
AK and JJ and neither one 4-bets pre-flop? God, that's horrible. Although I don't entirely believe the cutoff has AK. If he tanked and begrudgingly called the river shove then probably had like K10 maybe KQ.
Especially if it truly was a blind raise from +1. I wouldn’t really count hero’s $150 raise as a 3-bet in that scenario.
I play lots of live poker and I see people just calling AK pre all the time, totally believable that that's what he had
Pretty sure Cutoff lied and had K 10
KT (especially off-suit; either 3bet or fold) would be a horrendously bad call pre and post-flop OTR. Then again I would 3 bet AK so what the fuck do I know.
I get absolutely destroyed at social 😂😂😂
A crying call with jacks full is wild
Jacks were in the BB, caller is cutoff AK? guy
this hand is a fold on flop.
Not for 5:1 on a call with nut draws it isn't
Yeah I’m just getting out the way on the flop unless maybe I know BB is a complete maniac AND I know CO is nitty (and so won’t put me in a terrible spot by raising unless they have 2 pair+).
You guys crazy, I'm raising flop 😅
No it is not lol
All day long lol. PF raise probably needs to be ~225 if so many ppl are calling
Still watching the hand unfold but I would have raised flop to around $750-800 after the donk bet for $200.
Committing 30% of your stack with air, 5 ways, seems good 😂
This would work majority of the time because most players aren’t capable of donking a set there and will have KQ there 90% of the time, and will fold to pressure.
@@NKKK19 fake news
Like Bart mentioned at the beginning of the video, some players wont adjust when there are straddles, which is understandable.
BB has JJ first to act and has to pay 150pre instead of the usual 15-20. It is possible that his strategy was mine setting at this point.
CO has position and might be thinking the same as the BB hit or ditch.