Dark Souls 3 Lore: Has Ornstein Become A Dragon?
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- Опубликовано: 3 июн 2024
- Did Ornstein ascend into a dragon? Was Sacred Oath the band name for Ornstein, Havel, and the Firstborn?
Also, I had just got a new Mic and was WAY too close to it. Sorry for the swallow and lip noises, as kinky as that term sounds.
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In my opinion, Havel did not want to kill the Firstborn. He wanted revenge against Gwyn for giving Seath so much recognition and basically siding with Seath. Havel hated Seath with a stinging passion and he thought that Gwyn had practically betrayed him. So, he made a plan to kill Gwyn. But Gwyn found out, and sealed him away. Perhaps the, "For his own good" wasn't meaning of Havel, but for Gwyn's own good.
Maybe it was for Havel's good, probably he chosed between killing him and close him there
+Jacob Doyle I don't think that was there the entire time havel was locked up seeing as upon arrival it just lands in the bridge but I see what you mean
no I I don't think that happened because gwyn was already dead. he was a hollow in the kiln of the first flame which only the chosen undead could go to. and havel is the only other dragonslayer besides the other three knights and the firstborn.
"let me seal away this unstoppable force of pure rape behind *A WOODEN DOOR*"
Is it Havel in the Tower locked away in DS1?!?! In my opp. he is not. It is only one of his followers, becuase he gives you havels Ring. (Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load.) So why should havel wear his own ring he normally hand down to weaker soldiers so that they can wear his heavy amor? So the (There are rumors of a hero turned Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend. For his own good, of course.) means more that Havel himself locked one of his fellow Soldiers away and not that Gwyn locked Havel away... Havel itself in DS1 is a dead corps in the great Hollo! The one that has the Great magic barrier... if you want some proof, therefore I have not enought space here ;-P
The other interesting point that reinforces your theory is that originally Dragons do not have special souls (aside from the Seath who was granted it by Gwyn), not even Kalameet, yet Nameless King claims the soul of his fallen comrade as was custom in the age of gods.
Oh, wow. I didn't even think about that. Great insight friend, thanks for sharing! And thanks for watching! =)
@
Vicanti Rasumovski @The Ashen Hollow Sorry, but Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon drops his soul after being beaten.
@@coldray5 we both know that game doesn’t make any sense.
@@coldray5
Ancient Dragon has a soul. (DS2)
Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon has a soul. (DS2)
Darkeater Midir has a soul. (DS3)
The only reason why I can think that these 3 in particular have a soul compared to other dragons, is because they have been heavily steeped in death and must have absorbed a massive amount of souls before it died.
AD = The Dragon War.
Sinh = The Death of Shulva.
Midir = Constantly eating Humanity.
Both Kalameet and Gaping Dragon are recluses, so they didn't really get a chance to absorb a massive amount of souls. Seath had Gwyn's Soul Fragment, so any souls acquired would have been absorbed by it.
@@Battleguild the ancient dragon have a soul bc it is a construct made by aldia in the same way vendrick made the golens in drangleic
But that aside i think youre right, maybe with time dragons were also affected by the effects of the first flame and started developing souls and/or absorved souls with time. Theres a theory that sinhs' soul is actualy yorgh's soul because you use it to retrieve the knight's weapon, but maybe this is just for gameplay's reason. As for Kalameet and the Gaping Dragon, maybe they dont have a soul bc we fight them very early in the timeline (if we take the theory that dragons aquired/absorved souls with time) so they didnt had souls yet, by the time we took sinh down the fire was already rekindled many times, not to mentíon we fight kalameet in the long past of ds1.
Maybe midir was different bc he was born among gods and fought/"devoured" the dark (which is related to the dark soul of men), but even after eons of fire Ancient Wyvern dont drop a specific soul when we defeat it. So i believe (with no concrete evidence) that the dragons that do drop souls do so because something changed them with time (sinh was bound to yorgh, ancient dragon was a simulacrum made with a giant's soul, duke's dear freyja's soul was actualy seath's soul, and seath had a piece of gwyn's soul, midir was raised among gods and humans and spent ages fighting the dark/abyss and was corrupted by it, oceiros wasnt a true dragon)
Faraam -> Lions -> Lions is the "king of animals" -> The Nameless KING -> The nameless kings headdress almost looks like a lions mane. I think this one is solid.
Kian Klenø well, I think it’s very plausible he is Faraam. But that it isn’t his birth name, perhaps just a name the Knights of Forossa bestowed upon him as a semblance of Power & Lions. I believe he is truly nameless in that; his name will never again be discovered.
And Faraam was a god of war
@@markushaahr9194 Given the naming scheme he could just be Gwyn Jr, or some other name that starts with Gwyn. However, him being a former God of War, I think his name is Sen, and Sen's Fortress used to be his, to train Silver Knights and defend Anor Londo during the war with the dragons. There's no mention of a Sen anywhere in the game, other than the name of the fortress, which would make sense if his name was stricken from the records of history. Sen's Fortress might still be named that because it's always been named that way and that name is no longer associated with the firstborn, or it was widely known by that name, and the gods changed it, but the people outside of Anor Londo still remember/refer to it by its original name.
@@PunkZombie1300 filianore doesn't have the gwyn thing in her name
@@VanessaCamburao I mean there's only so many Gwyn names he could use before he runs out, not everyone is George Foreman.
If Havel was a dragonslayer, I think his weapon isn't the only trophy of his. I think his rock armor is actually made of dragon scales. While he may not be weak to lightning, persay, the armor set's weakest elemental resistance in all 3 games is lightning.
Could just mean his armor is made of stone, and stone being weak to lightning strikes BUT then again aren't the dragons basically made of stone? Hmmmmmm
Jeremy Melendez Yes, Everlasting Dragon scales are very stone-like.
+ShallowShi actually I'm pretty sure it specifically says in the cutscene in the first game that they had stone scales
Havel's Set description in DS1 explicitly mention they were carved from solid rock. I'm actually disappointed it isn't made of Dragon Scales, but that does nothing to change my opinion of everyone's favorite unstoppable dragonslayer.
@@AdolfHitler-uq8ec this
As a mad dark souls lore fan, I'm surprised I've only just come across your channel. I can't stop watching your content man, you provide so much evidence to back up your ideas and it really gets you thinking. Keep up the great work : ]
+Gypsy King thanks so much friend! =D
+The Ashen Hollow hey do u think I should get ds3 or ds1?
BeaverGodz 1. All day err day! =)
Agreed, playing dark souls 1 will just make your experience with dark souls 3 that much greater : ]
+The Ashen Hollow ok thnx
I like the theory of Ornstein being a dragon and you're quite convincing about it.
I also love the way you explain Havel's relationship to the NK.
However, NK tamed the stormdrake (lightning storm miracle) so it cannot be Ornstein.
Why would you tame a friend ?
To me, the most important about this "3 musketeers" lore is this sentence :
"The shield offers high protection to lightning, which the Dragonslayer commanded as his own, and its Skill has faint echoes of the Dragonslayer's OWN fighting style."
The key word is own !
As you may have noticed, the dragonslayer armour uses a very different fighting style than that of Ornstein.
NK's spear was the first of its kind. This means that Ornstein spear is a copy of NK's.
I deduce that Ornstein fighting style is basically a copy of that of the NK, who was most likely his teacher.
So here is my theory !
Ornstein was taught fighting by NK.
NK allied with the dragons.
Ornstein kept Anor Londo safe for a while but then decided to go look for the NK.
He found him at Archdragon's peak and he realize there was no convincing him.
So he casted away his armor and his spear.
Maybe he went back to Anor Londo but eventually he ended up in Lothric where he created his own fighting style using an axe and a shield.
Ironically, his armor is found in front of the sun altar dedicated to NK.
Maybe he even met Havel there who taught him is shield&mace fighting style. The combination of both NK and Havel style becoming Ornstein's own.
well thing is how the stone said "it showed the smallness of humans" wouldnt that mean orenstien turned wild when he attained his new form and he had to tame the stormdrake back to a right sense of comfort or mind
Okay... But assuming the old master of the dragonslayer armor was Ornstein, then when did he develop his new fighting style ?
He went to look for NK and then transformed into a drake ? Then when did he go to Lothric and when did he create his new fighting style ?
And why did he go to the Peak with his old armor and old spear ?
If you assume Ornstein is the drake and he went mad after transforming then he cannot be the dragonslayer from Lothric.
+kunnykuni didn't the item description say that it was just his armour being possessed by the pilgrim butteffly, not an actual being inside the armour?
IsThat Ruby? Yes, it did !
But it also says that the armor remembers the hunting sports of its master.
So it most likely uses the fighting style of its old master.
There used to be a dragonslayer wielding an axe and a shield who was wearing that armor.
But the armor you fight is empty and its owner is either gone or dead...
I always assumed it was NK's armor since he was a god of war. That title is usually given through prowess and skill of multiple weapons/techniques. He wasn't just a master of the sword spear. Plus the similar, but not exact, nature of their fighting style. Or at the very least a worshiper of NKs because there is no way for Orentstien to have gotten that armor, weapon, and drastic change to his combat art within the time span.
I wish we get to have dragonslayer armour's armor, wouldve been soo badass
I know. I think we should have all the humanoid boss armors. Yhorms armor would be nice to have too
+Sunwakka ikr, i hope we can get their armor from the dlc if they will ever make 1
GeekerDeed There will be DLC
+Sunwakka Yhorms armour was to be in the game but then they took it out for some reason.
+GeekerDeed Two confirmed dlcs
What is private life anymore ? Two games later, you guys can't stop chasing me, right ?
stfu
How lovely. Didn't expect much from some rookie randomly fighting his allies.
You have dishonored the legacy of Knight Artorias.
Show some respect, and bow to the royal family.
Any comments on your rumoured... "Close association" with Maneater Mildred?
I have nothing to justify myself about.
Except that the Abyss Watchers ARE his legacy... x)
And they basically walked in the EXACT same trap as Artorias, getting corrupted by the very thing they swore to destroy.
Cheers mate! ;D
the armor with no body is enough proof to me that Ornstein ascended as a dragon at some point
I heard he got murdered by the nameless king
+Adolf Hitler that's what I thought at first too. but think about it the description just said he left in search of him. if he really did die it would've said something about it in the description.
Murdered, or died seeking the king only a few steps from him.
It couldn't have gotten there by coinsidence. Unless they just wanted to give us fanservice and had no story behind why it was there but that'd be dull
@@tegridyfrogg227 he died seeking the king because the king is hollow he died trying to seek for him and when he did it ended up being ggv his fate
Also, I was reminded that we find the Man-Serpents in the Duke's Archive as well. So forget I said they were only in two places!!!
Who's the Old Dragonslayer in DS2? Ornstein's set is unique, so how is it in two places? I feel like the real Ornstein is the one in DS2, because you don't technically see him in DS3, it could be that the Nameless King recovered his student's armor and put it there as a sign of respect or something.
+Egyptian Overlord just think of DS2 as non canon and DS3 lore makes sense.
***** DS2 is canon, whether you like it or not.
Overlord is right, we have to take Dark Souls 2 as another chapter in the game series. I know I struggle just to start the game up, because it just doesn't look or feel like a Souls game to me. Still, we must take it for its merit.
Dark souls 3 references ds2 like Dark souls 2 references ds1.
dark souls 3 is a game that takes place in a world where time and space is truly murky and convoluted.
hence more clear connections to ds1 compared to ds2
So we have Gwyn.
Who has 2 known kids, gwynevere and Gwyndolin.
Naming the 3th one faraam is kinda a dick move.
No wonder he revolted against his father
Faraam was the first one and not to mention he can go around without being linked to Gwyn.... I consider that to be a positive.
Tin Darkmoon Catalyst states Gwindolin is Gwyn's lastborn and a Legitimate god... that specific explanation is the point in which we all know that there's something funny there... if he is Gwyn's son then he obviously is a Legitimate god, so why the clarification?
If he is a god why using a Catalyst for Miracles, gods don't need chimes nor catalysts do they?
There's no Gwyndolin statue or anything...
Gwyndolin is a boy but was raised as a girl so he doesn't claim to be the heir of the throne cause Gwyn doesn't want him to be "his son" but he is ok to be his daughter and a legitimate one...
Gwyndolin has snakes, which are known to be related to dragons.
There's more about Gwyndolin, Velka, Yorshka, Seath, the Archives and Lothric and why you find snake dudes after Consumed Oceiros (who uses Seath magic and has a child that can disappear just like Priscilla :O).
But definitely not Gwyn's natural child....
Yeah, except it states in the description of the Darkmoon Catalyst that Gwyndolin is the last born of Gwyn.
And that he is a moon sorcerer, meaning that he would need a catalyst for sorceries, as he uses no miracles.
you clearly didn't read what I wrote... too bad...
Yorshka says this: "Long ago, our father Gwyn, lamenting the waning of the fire, became cinder of his owen will.
Now, the fire is linked by the champions who have come in his stead.
Such is the will of father, and the gods. And so the Darkmoon knights took arms, to watch over those who link the fire."
Sure, it is possibly she didn't mean this literally, but let's assume she does for the sake of this argument, because that would mean Gwyn fucked a dragon. That would explain why Priscilla is locked away, because Gwyn is ashamed of her. Hypocritical bastard.
another thing to support it is that dragons do not have souls
the souls came to place with the first flame, after the ancient dragons, and seath created sorceries once he was given a soul by gwyn
if the drake is not ornstein, at least it would be safe to say it has his soul
Holy shit I did not notice that!
I was about to mention the ancient Dragon in ds2 but lol Dark Souls 2.
I learn something new everyday don't I.
+Carlos Flores the ancient dragon in DS2 wasn't a true dragon. It drops the soul of a giant, so it was really an imitation dragon made from a giant's soul
But you can find his soul in the dragon memory...
Dark Souls 2 Dragon Memory. Ancient Dragons soul. This dragon wasn't a shitty copy like Aldia was. Besides, we never exactly kill Ancient Dragons and get their souls, we never get the chance.
So we don't know if that was his soul or not eh?
Kalameet doesn't drop a soul and neither does Seath and I believe those were the last dragons. I usually don't count anything in DS2 since Miyazaki wasn't the one in control of it.
And we all know we can't kill the stone dragon either......dang
One thing, I really love the idea of onrstein being the storm drake, but then i remembered lightning storm miracle says that nameless king *tamed* the storm drake. Makes me sad cause it's an awesome theory. Edit: Also, not for sure, but to me the "serpents" described by the serpent rings always made me think of the primordial serpents.
Also there is a shield in DS3 that says/implies that the serpent men are devolved from dragons.
If you look at the story posited in this vid with a poet's eyes, still holds. Ornstein's mighty will was effectively 'tamed' by NK once he elected to become draconic. Especially if he originally set out to kill NK before learning of the Path.
ornstein could be the first dragon you kill, or any of the dragons chilling out at the peak
This is also a theory but what if he had completely turned into a dragon and therefore no longer had control over himself and the nameless King tamed him do to the fact that they were good friends and he wanted to continue fighting alongside him. I also believe that during the process of taming the dragon the nameless King was able to create the dragon stones to mimic this process ornstein went through to a lesser degree and that the nameless King was only able to do this because the storm Drake still had the soul of ornstein.
@@justinwright1857 i subscribe to this theory. there’s no way of telling what psychological effects come from becoming a dragon, a completely different beast. i can definitely see that a man will lose his humanity after becoming s dragon
Another shocking twist. You are very good in noticing small details (like Ornstein's armor not being on a corpse) and combining them with existing facts and theories. Awesome job.
Thanks so much buddy! =)
Fairly sure that dark souls 3 is basically what happened if the undead wasn't released in the first game. That would explain the whole ornstein being alive and the theory that smough is aldrich
Ornstein is considered by many, even before Dark Souls 2 was released, to be an illusion in the first game.
And as far as I know the only connection between Smough and Aldrich is that they eat people. But it seems like Aldrich completely consumes people, while Smough just grinds their bones into his food, like a nice seasoning. In all honesty, I think the fact that they try to push Aldrich as a Cleric who went bad separates him from Smough. Its unlikely Smough was ever a human, either a giant or a god of some kind, while Clerics have only ever been thought of as humans before.
The game is about cycles, all of these people were revived
Aldritch just ate smough, thats the whole connection between them
Fascinating Theory.
thinking about it. Having Ornstein´s armor lying on the ground, cant be meaningless.
It does make sense since, if you try and see into the nameless king´s dragon, it has a tighter resemblance with our character´s dragon form than with the type of dragons that you find alongside the game.
Amazing channel you´ve got.
you have my full support on it!!
Thanks so much friend!
The entire theme of Dark Souls 3 is the revival of Unkindled characters. People always seem to forget this, but a lot of the characters from this game have been revived by the Bells of Awakening, like Andre, for example. Why is it hard to believe that the Havel knight we fight is the real Havel? It's very possible that he's an Unkindled person like us. The biggest mysteries in this game are caused by this phenomenon. Any character can be Unkindled, which opens up a lot of possibilities and interpretations and that's what's so brilliant about the plot of Dark Souls 3. Sky's the limit with lore theories!
Dragon tooth "left by Havel himself"... lol
Can't be Havel...
this
uh I don't Andre ever explicitly died
Most people tend to forget, Havel was one person followed by his Havel Knights, who were taught to fight like him. He has his own martial style and a legacy as he had an entire unit like him. Remember the Havel's ring? That did not belong to Havel, he was strong enough to wield his own gear where as his knights wore the ring to keep up. Now obviously they didn't all rock a dragon's tooth but he is much more likely that this "Havel" is one who studied his ways or something like that rather being the one true Havel.
DS3 Havel didn't drop havel's ring real havel confirmed
Ornstein was the leader of the dragonslayers a group of elite knights created later in the first war to exterminate for good the dragons. So the armor that we find in archdragon peek is Ornstein's armor and the Dragonslayer armor is just the armor of a random dragonslayer who was under the commandement of Ornstein at some point. I mean how could it be Ornstein's if it's a different design of his, has different weapon than Ornstein, and is much bigger. This mean that the Dragonslayer armor we find in the Ringed city dlc is NOT the one from Lothric castle but another old Dragonslayers armor.
Also the theory that the Ornstein is just an illusion is prossible but in DS II we find Ornstein much older, slower, and weaker than in DS I so I believe that this could be the real Ornstein after hundreds of years travelling to find the Nameless king, maybe that's why he ended up near Drangleic but we killed him there too and this time it couldn't be an illusion so maybe the other theory that cycles are repiting itself's when the fire is once linked seems more probable to me but anyway... i'm just theorising
If you think Havel was there to kill the firstborn, how do reconcile that the Serpent Man Priest can summon Havel at Arch Dragon Peak?
The serpent can't summon him
Everyone's a Havel Knight. Fuck it. I'm a Havel Knight. Where the hell is the real Havel
@@buttchicken22 hahaha this cracked me up
@@justinwright1857 The Serpent Summoner near the statue of Kalameet, where the player can get the Calamity Ring, has a chance of summoning a Havel knight instead of a Drakeblood knight. It is a low chance, but it is possible.
Well I noticed that when he absorbs the Stormdrake's soul he gains the ability to have trails of a storm or wind with each attack making it seem the lightning was caused by the Nameless king and the cyclone of wind by the Stormdrake's soul which would become an argument against it being Ornstein
Ahh, I'm really beginning to enjoy your lore videos. Highly insightful and very well presented.
Despite The Nameless King being one of the "hardest" bosses, he is by far my favorite character. I was never a huge proponent of the Solaire theory and to see it finally put to rest with more concrete evidence made me happy. :D
One thing I noted in the cut scene where he ends the drake's life is how his hand shakes ever so slightly before the killing blow. Perhaps another nod to how close his relationship was to not only the beast, but the man the beast once was.
The snake dudes were also in the Duke's Archives.
which involved a dragon, seath
Great job man, keep up the good work!
Mind. Blown.
That snake dude at 17:44 also got blowned . But with something more massive
You're right.
Lugia is better than Ho-oh.
Didn't realise before but the Nameless King's spear hand shakes a tad before he plunges it into his mount, such attention to detail!
That was great. Phenomenal. Standing ovation. WOW!!!! Thank you once again for taking your personal time and giving us these wonderfully, well researched and detailed videos.
I love to do it! Thanks a ton again for all the support! =D
did you just discard that dks1 lore named Havel as brother in arms to gwyn?Ö_Ö
Nice vid but the Ricard thing was a bit... a LOT iffy. There's not much connection between him and the firstborn, Ricard is clearly human being undead and all and in DrkS there's a clear separation between gods and human. It's not just a simple status thing, they are 2 different races. It's more plausible that Ricard was actually related in some form to the knight king Rendal.
to the what? Dont leave me hanging
Shadow_Dragon
Well, we have plenty of Balder knights just outside Sen's fortress and practically at the feet of the Iron Golem. It's also speculated that the knights of Berenike are actually balder knights of higher rank (berenike maybe being a division of the Balder army, or a region). Now, we know that Balder is were the badass things are, even their king is a knight (knight king Rendal) so it's possible that the king and his knights tried to take Sen's fortress to have audience with the gods, maybe because of the undead plague which was infesting Balder (we know that Balder is a fallen kingdom). It seems to me that, due to his particular location, Ricard had something to do with the fallen Rendal and his knights. Maybe he was escorting the king, maybe he went on a journey in search of the king. However, considering the great amount of Balder knights (ubdead Balder knights, Tarkus, knights of Berenike) in the Sen area, I think it's more plausible that Ricard is somewhat related to Balder.
They are not different races it is just lords asorbed more souls in the age of ancients
Absolutely amazing perspective and video. Definitely subscribing. I'm glad I ran across this video. Keep up the amazing content.
sometimes i have to watch your videos twice because there's such a knowledge bomb that I can't get everything stored in my head in one sitting lol
enjoyed listening but cringed at the god mode gameplay with the misplaced rolls.
THANK YOU... it was so distracting
That explains a lot.
youre missing a few huge parts. the moonlight butterfly and the dead blacksmiths in ds1 can help you bridge the gaps. the butterfly watches over havels chamber, as well as the first faith ember, which you need before upgrading to occult. all 3 of those blacksmiths are long dead. (3rd being the one with large faith ember in tomb of giants.
seath did experiments, and those lizard men are closer to what seath wanted than what the maidens became.) ash lake is hard to explain havel, got any ideas from that?
Nice speculations & awesome video man!
This is perhaps my favorite theory video I've seen. Very well done!
Great vid!
Minor detail: I'm more inclined to believe that Havel was locked away in the tower by Ornstein, not by the Firstborn. My assumption, chronologically, would be that after his new alligeance was revealed the Firstborn was exiled from Anor Londo, Havel would then settle to follow him and make him pay for his betrayal, for his hatred for the dragons was great. He might have shared this plan with Ornstein himself, but regardless of how the First knight found it out he decided that it would be too foolhardy for Havel to face the Firstborn, for even stripped by his deific status he was still a remarkable foe (also,Ornstein loyalty towards the ex-God might have played a part on this decision). Hence the imprisonment "for his own good".
Side assumptions would regard the secret occult stash: Havel might have prepared it himself while brooding over his intent, possibly severing his speculated connection with the "ill-fated plot to destroy the very gods" mentioned in the Effigy Shield. IF the two events are not the same!
Valid theory, but I still believe Gwyn locked him instead of the Nameless King or Ornstein. To me it is weird for that dear friend of him to be someone else other than Gwyn if their former-relationship is specifically stated in the game (Havel's ring / Great Magic Barrier).
Lore wise, I think there are many videos proving Havel was locked by Gwyn, so I don't bother explaining here. But these videos can't disprove the theory that the dear friend of him is someone else either.
One thing that bothers me the most is where and when we can get the Havel's set. Why did he spawn next to the Stray Demon? Why did the corpse appear only after we killed the Havel's follower in Archdragon Peak?........The *Rock* Stray Demon and Havel's the *Rock*........Come on FromSoft there is no time for this kind of joke ._.""
Is it only me or is it weird that Gwyn locked Havel in a tower instead of a highly guarded prison?
Shunsui Kyoraku
You're not alone. I honestly feel that his location was a choice dictated more by gameplay experience than lore.
- "Yeah, you can have a shortcut, but here's a tough as nail miniboss guarding it. Have Fun!"
- "Thanks FROM"
*dies*
IMO you gotta keep a bit of suspensioon of disbelief looking at these things otherwise minor discrepancies will have your guts :D
For example: Havel brandishes a frikken Dragon tooth, you mean to tell me he couldn't breach through those wooden doors? Let's believe instead that, even in his hollowing, he accepted his exile and imprisonment :D
havel is already stated in lore to be a close friend of Gwyn so it's pretty clear who locked him up. that being Gwyn
Reminder that the Dragonless Age can only be the third game, since the first two had the last surviving everlasting dragons (and their covenants). The third game does not have the dragon covenant, nor dragons (only drakes). This seem to lead that Ornstein hunted the last dragons (Old Dragonslayer in DSII) and went to the nameless king in III.
The theory of transformation is pretty good and fits well though. Especially in parallel to the butterflies transformation.
I do think the reference that Havel Himself dropped the tooth refers to the one you actually kill. Since otherwise it would be closer to "Originally wielded by the knigh Havel" rather than "Dropped by Havel himself". The latter implies the last time it was dropped, was by Havel.
Excellent video man! Really smart thinking in this and I'm keen to see what else you got comin :)
Great way of narrating. Great editing. Great theories! Subscribed
You also fight Ornstein in Dark Souls 2. He seems corrupted by the abyss much like Artorias.
plot twist : a dragon became Ornstein
First time watching you’re content! I’m not much of a DS player but your commentary and visuals (Havel vs Nameless) really attracted me. Awesome video👌👍
Excellent work! Your theories are pretty out-there, but they make a lot of sense. That's what I look for in a Souls lore channel - unique ideas and perspectives. Keep it up, you're definitely one to watch!
Thanks so much. I agree with you I prefer those kinds of theories, especially when they start making sense when evidence is provided! I've got a pretty wild one coming soon too. Thanks again friend! =)
I know I'm late to this party but since you brought up the description of Ornsteins armor I'd like to point out that of Smough's armor which reads.
"Grotesque armor associated with Smough, *the last knight to stand in defense of the ruined cathedral.*"
This does seem to lend a lot of credence to the theory that Ornstein had in fact, already departed Anor Londo by the time the Chosen undead arrived in the city. Which I until recently had dismissed as baseless speculation, and the wishful thinking of overhyped Ornstein fans.
I thought that maybe the dragonslayer armour was a different one, because there may have been many.
Agreed, even Havel is called a dragonslayer so who's to say there weren't more, Gwyn, first born, Havel, oreinstein..... The list could go on
havel is mainly referenced as a bishop mainly of the way of the white not a dragon slayer
Technically, the Chosen Undead is another dragonslayer. After all, he/she does kill Seath (and Kalameet if you count the DLC)...
The chosen undead deserves the title yeah, but i see it more as an institution among the god's society
Keith Stone By that logic, the Bearer would be asworthy of the title as the Chosen Undead since he has also slain the last true dragon for a while, that being Sinh
Amazing video! I love how you say "I believe X. Here's why" instead of "This is correct" without explanation.
I absolutely love your theories. they are thought out highly well and make perfect sense.
Thank you kindly friend!
...I just realized that the Nameless King's design is based off of the broken statues at the Warriors of Sunlight altars.
I'm blind
Dude I wonder if the huge Dragon corpse you see on top of that mountain (right in front of the spot where you do the gesture to get the twinkling dragon head stone) is actually Ornstein, assuming your theory about him becoming a dragon is correct
the reason I say that is the description states that only one may hold that mantle and since the dragon is dead you can be the next person to become a dragon
It certainly could be! Great observation!
Man I love your videos so in depth and amazing!:)
Thank you kindly pal! =)
One thing about the dragonslayer armor, the armor you fight isn't ornstein's, that's the set the nameless king wore back when he was a dragonslayer himself.
Source? Or is this a theory?
nope
aside from the fact that it looks nothing like the dragonslayer's armor, its face has a hawk design and, as the guy mentioned in this video you find ornstein's armor in another location?
nothing really.
My take on this is that Firstborn wanted to ally with the dragons, realizing the horrors his father did to them in the war. Havel hates the dragons but Firstborn made him see the truth, at which point Havel decided to kill Gwyn with the Occult Club. However, Firstborn warned him it would be a suicide mission since Gwyn would prove much stronger, Havel didn't listen and Firstborn had no chance but to lock him up lest he ruins the Firstborn's plan of deposing his father and create a peaceful coexistence with Dragons. But he was exiled, Gwyn linked the Flame and all power left in Anor Londo was now Gwyndolin, who despite being mocked by his own father, decided to follow in his path no matter what. Ornstein, too, sought redemption for the atrocities he did in the war, so he sided with Firstborn and left Anor Londo long before the Chosen Undead gets there. I find it quite odd that in Dark Souls, Ornstein, known at the time as Captain of the four knights, was himself quite weak in comparison to Smough, a pretender, let alone Artorias, Hawkeye and Ciaran. Therefore, it was surely an illusion Gwyndolin made, for Super Ornstein is much stronger than regular Ornstein, whereas Super Smough kind of isn't that big of an improvement over his regular self.
Stormtrooper Elite uh... Gwyndolin was never mocked by Gwyn. Gwyn in all likelihood never even knew Gwyndolin *existed* .
Stormtrooper Elite but it says Havel *HATED* Seath, who was a dragon that was allied with Gwyn so that could be the reason he was locked
Maybe Havel's right hand man sacrificed himself and was locked away and Havel hid his armor to hide among the people until people forgot about him got his armor and then went to hunt down the first born (who he resented for the betrayal)
Dude your Videos are really awesome , i love your Theories you should be more known ^^
Thank you so much! =D
Very well put across theory and entertaining video, thanks for posting bud.
Thanks kindly friend!
Is it fun playing through Dark Souls with invincibility on?
I believed your theory up until the soul absorption part, which got me thinking, what if it's the other way around? Maybe the Firstborn was actually the drake and Orenstein was the Nameless King, this would explain why when the Nameless King absorbed the drake that an explosion of lightning occurred, which as we all know is gift of the Firstborn. This could also be why the family of Gwyn destroyed all references to him as they could not stand having their sun become a dragon. Any thoughts? This probably has inconsistencies somewhere but I just thought that explosion of lightning seen would not occur if one was already born the heir of it.
Oh shit!!! Hoy may be right! Also the namless king have a move set quite close to the move set of ornestein
But NK already could use lightning not storm.
That's because the Nameless King was Ornstein's tutor.
The only flaw I see in ur theory is why would ornstein abandon his armor and weapon to wear the nameless Kings armor and inpersonate him and wen were and how did he get the nameless Kings equipment.
The reason it explodes into a storm is because it's a storm drake after all. It also explodes with lightning which supports the theory that it is infact Ornstein. After the absorbing, the nameless king is able to use storm attacks in the phase two of the fight.
You do a really good job with this vids and the explanations you give to us. Like it very much!
I just commented on your "Dark souls is Canon" video, which was awesome! THis video should also include a subtitle saying that it goes into HAVEL'S lore with extreme depth. I've been looking for great Havel Lore and this is it, so thank you!!! I'm halfway through the video and I'm nerding out over here
Good video but you overlooked a MAJOR flaw in your theory and its the Sacred oath. There is a good chance this is a mis-translation. the original text might have meant "his faithful first knight and brave dragonslayer" and the translators who aren't as intimately familiar with the lore as we are probably misread it and thought the first knight and brave dragonslayer where two different individuals. So its talking about Gywn, his FirstBorn and the Dragonslayer who served them both, Ornstein.
The Japanese version says:
太陽の長子と、その筆頭騎士
そして竜狩りの剣士の物語は
最も勇壮な竜狩り譚であるという
Which translates to:
And the firstborn of the sun , the largest knight
And the dragon hunting swordsman of the story is
That is the most heroic dragon hunting Tan
It only mentions 2 people which is the FirstBorn and Ornstein.
So why roll in the game play if you have no hit box
Great video, some great backed-up theories!
man I love the lore for this game and the fact that it makes people come up with some many theories each with explanations and information supporting or dismissing one aspect or another.
They need to finish Ornstein's story in the next DLC. He is one of the biggest loose ends that has persisted over the entire trilogy.
Ahahahahahahaha
Another thing to enforce your theory that Ornstein is the Storm Drake is that no dragons known in history have ever breathed lightning or had lightning attributes. (sure there are the ones from DS1 that breathe lightning) that is a good analysis young one, but sadly those are wyverns and from the dictionary definition they are similar to, but are completely different to dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong this thought just popped into my head and I wanted to jot it down before I forget
But its a storm drake not dragon
Kriston Keaton They are just smaller than dragons and have four legs that's the only difference definition-wise
Here is from the drake sword item description:
Drakes are
seen as undeveloped imitators of the dragons,
but they are likely their distant kin.
There is a difference.. Also drakes aren't sentient while dragons are
What makes dragons sentient lol
subbed. great theory. your sen's fortress serpent theory in particular makes a lot of sense to me. awesome.
extremely good commentary and very well thought out theory, great job!
Thanks a million friend!
when the nameless king took the strom's soul, he gained the ability of wind..not lightning..he already had that.
also, the dragonslayer armor,i believe it once belonged to the nameless king..i mean,if you look at it and Ornsteins,perhaps Ornstein took his Masters idea.but one thing im sure of it is that it doesnt belong to Ornstein himself.Another thing is this..the Ornstein you first in Dark souls(1) is the Legit Ornstein.not half his soul or an Illusion...once defeated you attain his soul.point blank.
I also believe the Sunlight Cov. was created by Solaire to honor someone..this someone to be his former master..the nameless king.Its sed he had two..I beleive Ornstein was one while Sunbro was the other.
and Havel,well, it's a bit of a pickle talking about him, my biggest questions or this...who locked him up? its clear he was a very close friend to Gwyn and fought side by side....but was it really gwyn? perhaps you are right and it was Firstborn..but look at who has the key to Havels cell..blacksmith thats dead,a blacksmith that once was a master of Divine weapondry.hmmm.Divine..hmm,wasnt Havel once a Bishop? who else was a Bishop? LLoyd.maybe allfather lloyd was the freind who lockd Havel.just a thought.
It is confirmed in ds3 that you didn't actually fight Ornstein, and that it is probably a piece of his soul, or an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. You can't deny the facts
+Cyrus Butler You also kill Gwyndolin. It's sadly a bad retcon.
Where was it confirmed that you didn't fight Ornstein?
And Gwyndolin is a side boss, meaning that his death is a possible but not fix.
+Yadier Correderas It was confirmed on Smough's armor that he was the lone knight to stay and guard the princess.
Whether Gwydolin was a side boss or not doesn't excuse that the player character can kill him, which just corroborates that the lore is written a bit messy.
Bad retcon? I don't think so. World is convoluted and time sways in and out. That has been the core idea since Dark Souls 1, not some last minute thrown together garbage.
wait.. it's OrnstIEn? I always pronounced it as OrnsTEIn (a bit like in "wine")
:(
Bloody Fromsoft and their hard-to-pronounce names!
no you are right, but most people get it wrong cause they dont know better^^
Nito Raki hah I knew it.
thanks!
Stein is the German word for stone :) I don't know how to describe it, but something like "shtine" should be pretty accurate I guess :)
Critical Ravi I know, I'm Austrian.
That's why I always pronounced it like it'd be a German word
this video opened my mind to a lot of things yet it left me with even more questions then before anyone else fell that way?
This video was enough to make me subscribe you :) I love the way you explanied everything and the way you show us your facts backing up your theories!
Thank you, friend! =D
MEAN COMMENT!
Liked it but Ho-Oh is better.
Haha, fair enough! ;)
Awesome video dude!
great video keep it up man!
I do agree that Ornstein must've become a dragon at some point, but him being the Stormdrake isn't getting through my thick skull. Sorry
Awesome video though
Wait if Nameless King is Gwyns son, who the fuck is Solaire?
just a lunatic
But.... praise the sun...
just a grossly incandescent bro
Solaire is our sun
A knight. A wanderer. A dreamer. A friend. Eventually a Lord of Cinder if you help him throughout his quest
i just found your channel, i'm really enjoying your videos, i do think that you are reaching a bit on some of your theories, but it`s interesting to hear some more ``out of the box`` ideas. Keep up the good work.
Something I noticed that really sealed the "Faraam is Nameless King" thing for me is not only the description of the armor, but also the appearance. Take a close look at the etching on the top of the Faraam Knight Helmet
neat theory. I hate to say this but git gud (cringy) turn off god mode dude.
He likely recorded this for the video, it would kinda ruin the video if the background footage was him dying
TL;DR: No he didn't.
That's definitely not how that works! XD
Your theories about ornstein are so good, so deep. Thinking of him about the first born's dragon seems crazy at first, but the evidences you give us make me genuinely believe that all you explained is right. Well done realy !
you have a really interesting take on things. definitely subbing
Thanks so much man!
Can you try sipping some water before recording? Your throat puckers more than the small asian man between my knees
The fuck.......
oh, cmon, all these speculations are crap just because creators of the DS series didn't bother with timelines to match. basicaly, they are spitting in our faces with the timelines:
we kill ornstein in ds1
then again we kill ornstein in ds2
and now in ds3 we hear a story about he doesn't give a fuck being killed twice and becoming a dragon.
okay then.
also, dragonslayer armour fight is weird. if it is empty armor, why the fuck it bleeds and can be staggered?
+Indifferent One
You're pretty incorrect according to most people. But you're allowed to have your Debbie Downer opinion on everything. People here just don't want to see it. ;)
The theory that Ornstein was an illusion had a lot of merit even when Dark Souls 1 was newly released. And the one in Dark Souls 2 could have been a common dragonslayer dressing up as his child hero for all we know.
Though i definitely agree that this theory is preposterous. Ornstein fought dragons for years, and watched many of his friends get burned alive which would just increase his hatred of dragons, but now suddenly he wishes to become the very thing he kills.. It's a lot more likely that Ornstein came to kill Gwyn's traitor son along with Havel for his betrayal of Gwyn and themselves.
"We knights fought valiantly, but for every one of them, we lost three score of our own.
Exhilaration, pride, hatred, rage… The dragons teased out our dearest emotions.
…Thou will understand, one day."
The Ashen Hollow Hey there! This may sound stupid and the timing of this is quite late but... In Dark Souls 1 we can choose to kill either Smough or Ornstein first. We get the soul of the one we kill first so.. perhaps it is canon that the chosen undead killed "Ornstein" first, and then proceeded with Smough. That way the chosen undead does not get the soul of Ornstein and it gives more wiggle-room (so to speak) for the illusiornstein theory.
Mr33500 saying its impissible for Ornstein to turn because he was a dragonslayer is like saying the First Born couldnt turn because he was a dragon slayer as well. they ALL fought the dragons at one point or another. It said that ornstein went to the FB in a 'dragonless' age. To me, this teases out motive. It seemed that ornstein was disillusioned with his purpose in life after dragons. All three other knights were dead or lost. The queen he stayed to protect left. And the dragons he once hunted were ancient history. It teases that ornstein felt he had no purpose, and thus sought out his master for answers. That seems, to me, the most logical version of the story. If he did it for vengeance, he sure took his sweet ass time to decide to get it, huh? And lets not for a second fool ourselves into thinking Ornstein even dreamed he could take the FB. First of all FB was his master, and second Havel wouldnt even *attempt* it without an occult weapon. FB was not to be fucked with my dude.
Indifferent One Orenstein was an illusion in dark souls 1 and in dark souls 2 he isn't the real one either
This is a real cool theory. Great job dude!
wow your lore videos are the ones to get me imagine things and the story that you tell have such fluency plus you editing on the videos have great quality, i used to like ENB now he's a diva, i found a new lore house, thanks for the great job hope your channel grows and keep up with the awesome job, ( hope my english it's not that bad, not my first language )
Your English in fine! Thanks so much for the support friend! I'll keep trying my best! =)
This theory has me so excited! It has me diving head first into the lore with even more vigor and excitement
Love how you present these videos. You don't make it all dark and mysterious and edgy like a certain popular Souls uploader. Thanks for reminding me why I love the lore of this series.
Now that you mention all of this fascinating evidence and speculation of your's, I think I'm going to adopt your theory. This is truly amazing for you to have dug all of this information up from both the games and your imagination. I think I really want to be content with believing your theory, thank you for letting it be known. I don't know you, but I know you're awesome.
Thank you so much friend, that means a lot! =D
Back again with a great video
I try my best! Thanks for tuning in friend! =]
+The Ashen Hollow what well your next video be not pressuring you or anything
Right now I'm thinking the Sable Church of Londor. I won't give you to much insight right now, but I'll give snippet of one of my theories from it.
There are 3 chaos witches unaccounted for. I think they are the 3 sisters who founded the Church. But you'll have to wait for the video to find out why I think that is! ;)
+The Ashen Hollow dam your teasing me man
Gabriel Perez It's so JUICY right?! =D
i know this is a lore video but you do really good on the video and made it nice to look at. thank you for that
You're welcome! I just learned how to do free camera so I should keep getting some really neat shots! Thanks so much for watching! =D
This was a really interesting video. I love the lore surrounding the Nameless King, and Ornstein has always been a personal favorite character of mine. Kinda wish I could stick with a Faith build long enough to create something similar.
Same, ive only played DS2 really, but every time i try and make a faith build i turn into a hex or bleed build lol
Great lore video I completely forgot about ricard. The oristein theory was brilliant. Keep up the great work.
Thanks a bunch!
Subbed! Great Theory and it makes sense!
Great video and insight. Good job.
I watched ENB, German Spy, Vatti, Praise the sun ect. Your content is on par man.
Thanks man, that means a lot! =)
Great video! Like ur theory, it makes sense. :D
Love your theories, they're so far out there compared to all the other theory crafters.
I love you video and its very gripping, but I want to point out you using the dark souls 1 character select music hit me right is the feels
Thank you! That is my favorite Dark Souls soundtrack of all time! Oh sweet nostalgia!
:)