Dr. Layne Norton: Collagen is a Waste of Money! (But, is it?)
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
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References (Copy & Paste DOI into Search Engine)
[1] doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00525.2011
[2] doi:10.1249/MSS.0000000000002337
[3] doi:10.1249/MSS.0000000000003214
[4] doi:10.1002/mnfr.201801094
[5] doi:10.3390/polym14050876
[6] doi:10.1007/s00726-021-03072-x
Dr. Norton's Video: • New Study: The Value o...
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#collagen #jointhealth #nutritionfacts
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No Amendments, currently.
Excellent comments. I have a few questions for your further research:
1- Could Hydroxyproline (Hyp) be a better measurement than leucine for tendon/collagen growth?
2- I am a bit confused as to which milk protein was actually used in the mentioned studies. Was it casein or whey? This would make a big difference because of the proline content in casein which is equal to that in collagen. Whey is lower.
3- Do the collagen receptors you mention respond in the same way to single amino acids as to peptides? The study below shows that at least one of these receptors responds to the Hyp. (Pun intended 😉 )
Dose-dependent changes in the levels of free and peptide forms of hydroxyproline in human plasma after collagen hydrolysate ingestion, Yasutaka Shigemura et al.
4- We know that di- and tripeptides can be absorbed into the blood, but what amounts are we talking about? And what percentage of those will the collagen receptors respond to?
PS: calculated Proline contents
Gelatin 14.4%
Gluten 12.5%
casein 12.0%
Whey 7.1%
@@georgewashington3619 It's the peptides. Studies using pork hydrolysate (gelatin) have demonstrated that a few di- and tri-peptides do in fact get absorbed into serum. But also, collagen provides a big dose of glycine, proline & hydroxyproline. Probably these free AA's are having an effect. There is research on supplemental glycine that looks very positive.
What I'd like to know is if there are any studies done using different types of collagen from different sources. Because what I had read somewhere a while back is that most of the collagen typically used is types 1 and 3 but those don't do much for joints vs. Type 4 (I think it was 4) is the type that improves joint health.
Could you maybe look into that if you haven't already?
@@PurpleWolfer Lots. Because there are so many collagen sources, researchers have studied eveything from pork to beef, chicken, fish, eggshell membrane, etc. Type 2 is thought to be best for joints.
@@presence5426
Thanks! But I'm wondering if they use the "incorrect" type of collagen when doing studies such as the ones mentioned in this video?
This is so rare on RUclips- respectful disagreement with a motive towards finding the truth and admitting there's a lack of knowns rather than raking in views from perceived drama and black and white claims.
Power on mate.
True, it is rare among RUclipsrs, but not among scientists. Good to see nonetheless
@@EhurtAfyhow can you say that after the last few years?
@EhurtAfy have you been on Layne Norton page and watched any of his rants? He's one of the most disrespectful scientists out there.
So true
@@AmirKhan-lp1tl Since when has calling out bullshit claims and cultish diet fads been disrespectful?
I am a 50 year old black woman, I have been taking 10g daily dose of collagen for about 8 years. I recently suffered a massive, terrible burn. In less than a month, the burn had healed and the skin looked no different to my original skin. I believe it is because of the collagen I take. I, also, am a protein scientist albeit I did my PhD on citrate synthase.
Citrate synthase! Too cool! I’ve done some work with citrate synthase as a measure of mitochondrial function. Thanks for chiming in.
@@Physionic That sounds interesting! Anything published I can read?
I looked at which structural features were necessary for the stability of the enzyme. I am now more interested in peptides and aging.
Are you taking hydrolyzed collagen? Sorry for the burn event but so glad it healed up well!
@@elibennett6168 Yes. The one I take contains 5 types from 4 different sources.
That doesn’t prove the effectiveness of collagen!
After six months, Collagen supplements healed my keloids. After two years, collagen supplements healed my two torn meniscus in my knees and a torn glenoid labrum in my shoulder. Prior to that, the doctors said that I would need dual knee replacements and surgery to relieve shoulder pain. Thanks to collagen, my cartilage has all healed. No pain, no surgery, and an active lifestyle. Doctors should give a disclaimer that there is more they don't know than what they do know.
that is great! which type of collagen did you take? type I ? III?
Your body will heal all kinds of stuff over 6 months and 2 years
how did collagen heal your keloids? you applied it topically? ive been taking collagen for a while and no luck on my keloid scars yet
I competed in the Olympic games and track and field, and I'm now 60 years old. and I have been coaching athletes for the last 30 years to make Olympic teams and set world records. One of the most outstanding things that I have ever seen in connective tissue strengthening and recovery for myself and other athletes, was to add collagen along with whey protein. and when it comes to amino acid breakdown collagen has more l-glutamine than whey protein and over the last 30 years I have personally had over 100 people tell me how much their joints feel better after using collagen peptides. oh yeah one more thing I hold several world records for the age group in track and field, I also am coaching and athlete on his nutrition who is 53 years old who just set the world record in the 200 m for the over 50 athletes, and yes he is using collagen. Olympic athlete Wyndell Dickinson.
thank you for your testimony
Oh you're welcome this is changed my life, and many of my friends as well.
10 gm per day?
Thank you for this! Extremely valuable
@@wyndell300what collagen do you take if you don’t mind me asking?
I CANNOT believe I just stumbled across this channel. The quality of this video was insane.
Please stop using the term "insane" for things that aren't.
Same here right now. Greetings from germany
@@presence5426 find me any other channel that goes through research papers in this much depth and manages to simplify it
Your inclusion of the statistical nuance was very insightful. Thank you for all of your efforts.
Much appreciated
Not to sound like a fortune cookie, but your integrity and diligence has taken you far in life, and will continue to do so.
Love to hear both your and Dr Nortons take on this. Great content as always!
Great video - the item by item explanation with visuals is very helpful!
I like the thought process and cross referencing done here that brings out the potential and nuance.
I take a hydrolyzed multi Collagen peptide. Contains 5 different types or sources. I find it very helpful, especially since I'm 67 and lift heavy. Love your content.
Non denatured?
Cool stuff man! Glad I found you! Layne is a godsend.
Thanks so much for your take on this, Nick. I appreciate your insight into statistical nuance. It's super helpful to this student! I do add marine collagen and a bit of gelatin to my (warm-ish) cacao. I'm not sure it has much of an effect on my connective tissue because I also take L-Glutamine and when I take both my knee and ankle stop screaming at me. But I mostly take the collagen because I love what it does to my cacao. It's like drinking dessert. :) If I get a modest benefit to my body - cool!
My understanding is that collegen contains a relatively high abundance of acetylated and glycosylated amino acids. It may be these modified single amino acids or small peptides that are having the specific anabolic effect that some research reports. Either through signalling and upregulation of collagen synthesis or simply as an increased supply of precursors (though I doubt such precursors are substrates for translation).
Good timing!
I’m 107 years old and I’ve been taking 10g of hydrolyzed collagen for the past 30 years. I feel fantastic and I still participate in the 25K marathon every year. Last month I climbed mountain Everest without oxygen supplies and then I free fell from the top and I only broke my ankle. It healed in a month.
Weakling. My 124 year old nephew does 50ks every month. Step it up geezer,
😂😂😂😂
Basically every ad for collagen
@@mml3140not every day? Kids these days...
I've been taking 50 g of collagen for the past 40 years. Last week i climbed Mount Everest and the mountain broke. Whoops sorry about that
As always great content. So I guess the question is if you take straight collagen versus collagen peptides is there a difference? Meaning do the Enterocytes function differently if you take straight, collagen, versa, peptide, collagen.
Thank you for this! Hes tough to listen to. Love your content!
Great stuff, thanks for sharing. Really happy I saw you on the "Nutrition Made Simple" podcast....another great person to follow and maybe hear some different nuances and views on various topics.
Personally I started taking collagen for the supposed benefits for joints etc, but currently I take it along some EAAs just for protein source, since I don't tolerate whey and plant protein powders well and I really dislike beef protein.
Gil Carvahlo does a great job
Thanks! I am taking collagen and it's interesting to hear what collages studies find.
Great content. Thank you.
I can say I tried various joint supplements as a 55 year old BJJ black belt. The only supplement that I felt a marked improvement in joint function and overall movement was hands down collagen. Now that is anecdotal but I’ve tried lots of things. And when 10 other items did nothing and one did you take note.
So many people "feel" like collagen supplementation helps them. Is it possible that, in people who are protein deficient, collagen supplements help simply by increasing their overall protein intake? A while ago I had started to take collagen and I indeed, after a month or so of taking it, felt like I had better skin and joints. I stopped wanting to spend the money on it and instead switched over to just eating more protein in my diet in general. I started feeling even better.
Collagen is not a complete protein
There are lots of positive anecdotes. Including yours. There is also a large body of research on collagen supplements, demonstrating that it has effects independent of just being "more protein." It contains a unique amino acid profile, and is a source of unique, bioavailable, short peptides.
@@capcomfan82 So? Proteins don't have to be complete to be useful.
@@capcomfan82No one takes collagen for it being a complete protein or not. The hydroxyproline content is the most significant difference from other proteins.
@@presence5426problem ist most of all studies are not well controlled, the control group doesnt take as much protein as the collagen group
Question: Do these findings apply to skin health/thickness as well?
All I know is collagen peptides have helped me tremendously with stiffness, soreness, my ligament in my knee and my feet. It didn't take long either.
Clinical trials in humans show exactly that. Glad it's working.
Excellent as usual.....
I've been taking collagen for 10years, i suffered dramatic aging of my skin in my 20's. Whey protein alone did nothing for my skin but it helped increase mass. The collagen on the other hand reversed 3 eyebag lines under my eyes out of 5, which stalls whenever i take a break from collagen. My protein intake stays around 160lb. The squares that you see when you look at your skin closesly, have all reduced in size, and now i'm onto finally reducing the last 2 eyebag lines
I've seen evidence for collagen on skin health and wound healing, but it was hydrolyzed collagen specifically. I am not sure if collagen is chopped up the same way in vitro and in vivo. But chopped up it is much more easily absorbed. Also some studies on individual specific peptides from collagen that may be responsible for the majority of effects but the confidence isn't too high.
What about the impact of collagen supplements on nails and hair? Also, collagen contains a great deal of glycine, while whey protein contains cysteine. If you take both, you have the building blocks for your body to make glutathione, a powerful anti-oxidant that declines as we age.
Yep on the glycine & cysteine. Lots of talk about GlyNAC for pumping up glutathione production. I haven't seen a ton of studies looking at collagen for nails & hair, but there are a few, with mixed results. Lots of anecdotes!
My cocker spaniel began limping at age 14. After seeing 2 vets with no resolution, I began giving him Unflavored Gelatin. He resumed walking normally in less than 2 weeks. I have since switched to Collagen Peptides (I take it also). My dog is still able to run at age 16-1/2. I have always fed him a grain-free, high protein diet.
Most of our senses come from the skin including many that only come from the skin. Therefore, any tiny improvement is felt drastically more than improvements anywhere else. I was feeling my initial 2-5g doses of collagen right away, years ago when I started. Now I take 10-15g and don't ever think of stopping.
Anxious to hear this, I've had tendon issues for the last 8 months and I've been pounding multiple brands of as many kinds collagen as I can and trying to strengthen the tendons with almost zero progress, still can't do full ROM arm lifts like curls without extreme pain
Do band work, for your bis and tris, 50 reps of press downs and 50 reps of curl... Just flood them with blood, do this 3 or more times per weak.
Take collagen and vit c an hour before training to push it in also. Don't sweat going heavy.
@@alexanderohanlon8825 alright, I'll do that, thanks...I've been taking vitamin c and proline as well
great video and methods
I moved to Japan several years ago, still live there today. They advertised collagen powder supplements here as a skin anti-aging supplement. It was pretty cheap, so I tried it. It seemed to have some positive effects, just based on appearance, so I’ve been using it quite regularly since then. I turned 40 last year. I don’t have an identical twin that hasn’t been taking collagen supplements, so I can’t make a definitive statement, but people have always thought I looked younger than I am. That hasn’t changed.
My joints feel "cushioned" when I take collagen peptides daily, and especially pre workout, as opposed to when I never used to use collagen peptides.
same, working a 26K+ steps/day job and it absolutely makes a difference in my personal QoL
Good, could you please recommend the brand?
@@raphakong4242 honestly I just buy whichever ones have collagen I, II, III, V, and X with that hyaluronic acid and vitamin c based on whatever price is lowest on amazon when I need to refill
edit: typo
@@raphakong4242 I use the iherb brand bovine collagen peptides. Most affordable one I've found.
It's called a PLACEBO effect.
Great Video!
I am looking forward to your follow up to see what if any cocktails work for connective tissue growth and repair.
Great video. Can you also make a video on the difference between gelatin and collagen peptides? I can't find much research where they are compared and I have a hunch that gelatin helps more with the idea that more dipeptides and tripeptides since it is supposed to be less hydrolyzed. I think also that since gelatin is less hydrolyzed it has a bigger chance of increasing digestion and signaling to produce more collagen fibril.
I think his previous collagen video was pretty good. Anyways, as far as I personally understand, hydrolyzed collagen means more of the peptides survive digestion whereas something like gelatin gets broken down into its constituent amino acids. Your body can use these amino acids to make collagen itself but it takes time. I doubt there's much benefit to supplementing with gelatin compared to collagen and gelatin isn't cheap either.
I would only ever supplement with hydrolyzed collagen. Otherwise a diet rich in whole foods sources of protein will provide all the amino acids. If you like to put gelatin in broths or whatever I'm sure it's beneficial, it provides plenty of the amino acids the body needs to produce collagen. Don't forget exercise also
I don't know that it matters much. Gelatin is produced by heating animal tissue (say, pork skin). Heating "denatures" the collagen which makes up the animal skin. That's why, when you boil chicken parts to make soup, you will see all that goopy gelatin congealed on top when you cool the soup down- it came from the chicken skin & perhaps other parts.
Collagen (hydrolyzed) peptides are a processed product from, say, cow hide. The large, original protein molecule is broken down with acid and/or enzymatic treatment to create *peptides*, which are shorter strings of AA's (maybe 10-100 or 200 AA's long).
So... in theory, your own digestive system has to do less work to break down the peptides into individual AA's, or short oligopeptides (di- and tri- peptides). And these get absorbed more readily.
it's mostly just marketing and convenience. The best studies for collagen (and vit c) supplementation use gelatin. The peptides will dissolve readily in liquids, gelatin won't. Your body is specifically designed to handle this type of protein and you have proteolytic enzymes in your stomach that cleave these molecules with no problem.
@@zakazan8561 Thank you for that I think most of the studies forcus on gelatin because many capsules are made with it. All studies state that it dissolves into the very same collagen peptides.
@@zakazan8561 It's true that a lot of good studies use gelatin. But I'm not sure it matters about dissolving or not. If anything, water solubility could be a good thing. Makers of hydrolyzed collagen claim that because their product is loaded with pre-cleaved peptides, it's easier to digest. So in theory, one would absorb more di- and tri-peptides from a hydrolyzed product. Gelatin, on the other hand, takes more work to break down in the digestive tract. But in the end, I'm not sure it matters. Because the spikes of peptides in the blood are tiny (but still meaningful). So no matter what form of collagen we consume, there will be a spike.
I have both better physical and mental health along with nice strong full long hair that was dry, split and weak before I started my Collagen program.
Great video 💪
Excelleent summary.
Great video.
Collagen l, ll, lll, V & X work great for my joint pain. I have a TRPA1 hypersensitivity that is found in joints that stimulates somatostatin that inhibits bone and cartilage production. Before taking the collagen I would wake from great pain, after the supplements the pain was gone.
Wow! Very interesting. I just watched a show about that last night!
I read that you want a supplement which mentions type I and III. The other types, apparently, are basically filler and result in a less effective supplement.
@@justinfitzpatrick013 with too much TRPA1 somatostatin production? Do you have a title of the study? Thnx
@@justinfitzpatrick013 Not filler. Any collagen type will contain similar protein structures, and is therefore a source of bioactive peptides & AA's such as glycine, proline, hydroxyproline, etc.
Excellent content
I wonder what would happen if we add leucine to the mix? Would it improve the synthesis of the collagen?
I usually drink my collagen together with whey protein, + 3 g of Leucine, exactly for the reason to triggering MTOR.
Ya, that’s what I was thinking.
I have/ had steroid induced osteoarthritis. I took good quality marine collagen at around 1g daily for about a year. I continued to get pains in my hip and thigh bones, notably at night. I switched to bovine collagen and the pains reduced and then stopped within about 10 days.
Interesting. Did you up the dose? 1g is pretty low. For OA, you might look into eggshell membrane & UC-II collagen. Both seem to get results for OA symptoms.
I’d love to hear you and Layne debate this. You should reach out, I know he’s always very open to challenging viewpoints. I appreciate this video (and Layne’s)
Five years ago I was suppose to have knee replacement surgery. My knees sounded like old rusty barn door hinges. I didn’t go to the surgeon instead I took 10,000 IU of D3 and Knox gelatine. I noticed a difference in a month and in 6 months I threw away my cane.
Was that the Joel Wallach protocol?
@@presence5426 it does appear what Joel Wallach would do. But no. Chemistry is my game. The right combination of amino acids and what might be off the cuff considered a catalyst D3
Love you guys both.
A couple of things off topic. I took creatine for a while and started peeing constantly. Stopped and it subsided. 64 years old and work out 5 days a week for maintenance. Also Berberine and hairloss. Can it have an effect? Also, the same for Boron. Hairloss?
Wearing the T-shirt vs just living it? TBH watched his video and compared his data to yours and did my own. This was diplomatic/objective. No need to ‘destroy’ diff views or shut them down. They’re key to good science. Thx
I was also very skeptical of collagen supplements for the exact same reason that proteins get reduced to amino acids in the digestive system. If only di- and tripeptides get into the bloodstream (no higher oligopeptides), then collagen is truly a placebo, because these fragments will be produced by any protein source. The only thing that could save the supplement is if some amino acids have a very specific ratio, so that specific combinations have a higher number, but that is rather unlikely, since protein from the diet most likely dominates and will wash out such subtle effects.
Interestingly, there have been some studies showing collagen supplements having a beneficial impact on bone mineral density. Would be interesting to understand the mechanism.
Probably bioactive peptides acting upon the osteocyte.
Good with real sceince, thks.
good job, fellow biochemist and genetics (PhD) here✌
It supplies a ton (Grams) of glycine, and NAC supplies cysteine, that there's your GSH. I could be wrong, but I hope I''m not.
Really appreciated the technical content of this video. But WOW, the slowly rocking images and charts really made me motion sick. I've never gotten motion sick watching RUclips before
As far as I can remember from other interviews, Norton is fine with supplemental creatine ( a tripeptide) and we do have data on absorption of dipeptides like carnosine and anserine.
So my question is about any research on collagen di and tri peptides and absorption into the bloodstream.
There's a fair amount. I'd post links but they always appear to get lost. It's not well known among scientists, but should be:
Sato, Kenji 2017 The Presence of Food Derived Collagen Peptides in Body Structure and Biological Activity
Shen & Matsui 2018 - Intestinal absorption of small peptides a review
Shigemura et al 2017 Changes in composition and content of food-derived peptide in human blood after daily ingestion of
Taga et al 2019 Improved in Vivo Tracking of Orally Administered Collagen Hydrolysate Using Stable Isotope Labeling
Yazaki et al 2017 Oral Ingestion of Collagen Hydrolysate Leads to the Transportation of Highly Concentrated Gly-Pro-Hyp and Pro-Hyp in Blood and Skin
IIRC Norton went big on the use of BCAA - releasing a line of products - for muscle synthesis .. But now, current research has seen him backtracking on further promotion on its efficacy
There are several papers published. I replied with them but RUclips seems to scrub my comment.
Should i take collagen in addition to my usual 1g/lbs of protein or would it count as that?
Another great dissection, Nic. One thing that always puzzles me is that no one ever discusses the types of collagen.
When it comes to connective tissue the option that has been most often recommended, in my experience, is Type 2 collagen. Could it be a topic for a new video?
Great point. I should have touched on it.
I read a research article which found better effect on joints with a hydrolyzed collagen of type 2.
I think they attributed that to di- and tri-peptides of the right kind.
I myself regard hydrolyzed collagen as just a good way to get the right amino acids for building my
own collagen. Mainly glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline. We have about 27 different kinds of collagen
in our bodies, so hitting them all directly would be difficult.
The "types" of collagen refer to the animal tissue where they are found: Type 1 in skin, 2 in joints, etc. "Type", meaning the collagen matrix assembly, which is somewhat unique depending on the tissue. So there is a logic to taking type 2 collagen for our joint issues (e.g. UC-II or undenatured chicken sternum collagen).
But also, there are strong similarities in all bodily collagens. This is all still being studied.
Without digging into the collagen study yet, I'd be interested whether participants were at all vetted for prior protein intake. Taking a random batch of people might show no effect - but possibly looking at people who do not get much protein and especially collagen in their day-to-day life might show a clearly significant effect. That would probably readily explain the various anecdotes of people who get significant improvements with joint or skin health when they start supplementing collagen, i.e. people who usually have inadequate protein intake and always eschew the "chewy bits" (the collagen rich portions) of meat.
In regards with stimulating collagen protein synthesis. I remember noticing the effect size of most papers using collagen supplementation was pretty moderate, but then I looked at synthetic di and tri-peptides (mainly in the realm of skincare, which most publications are ofc biased) and the effect sizes were pretty large
Are you talking about topical peptides? Interesting. I'm not up on that.
@@presence5426 ugh, iirc most of them were intravenous. Can't remember well tbh. I'll try to find some of those papers and circle back
as a near 60 yo I noticed that my skin was taking longer and longer to heal from minor cuts and abrasions, by the time I retired,65, some were taking a month or more to heal. On the recommendation of a friend, I started taking 15g of bovine collagen peptides a day mixed into plain yoghurt and now, some 4 years on, my minor cuts and abrasions are healed in days and several people have commented on my skin plumpness and lack of wrinkles for my age,70.
Nice. What you experienced is what research shows. But, most studies only go for weeks or maybe a few months. It would be very cool to track patients on collagen for years.
i used collagen and in a matter. ofa few days, my joints felt better, over a few months, my hair and nails are waaaaay better. not sure if i see noticeable effects on my skin,.
Adding in mixed bovine & marine collagen has improved my arthritis, skin hair & nails significantly. I only use scant amounts, less that recommended doses. I've also increased diverse cooked on bone meat dished, inc. Chicken, lamb & pork.
You might look into UC-II & eggshell membrane (NEM). Both get results for arthritis with very low doses.
@@presence5426 What I'm doing is so easy & working perfectly, but thank you. If it needs tweaking this could be handy to know. What is Uc-ll, btw?
@@helenahandkart1857 You betcha. I'm glad you're getting good results. Undenatured Collagen, type 2, from chicken sternum. I believe it has been tested in doses as low as 40mg. Remarkable that such a tiny dose would have an effect.
@@presence5426 Thank you, that is good to know. We cook a few chicken on bone casseroles that would contain this. We use variously tomato, lemon, wine & apple cider vinegar to assist with the collagen & bone breakdown, & bioavailability. I find if I get over enthusiastic with collagen it precipitates either gout or oxalate.. my gout is essentially absent on a lowish carb diet, so I think it might actually be a hydroxyproline to oxalate conversion, which I both annoyingly but usefully only just recently learned about.
@@helenahandkart1857 Probably whole cuts of chicken, and especially a whole bird does have plenty of collagen. Various types as well, from skin, cartilage, tendon, bone.
Excellent video as always. Curious, if in your search if you find whether the supply hydroxyproline from collagen influences collagen synthesis. I could have sworn I had read something along the lines of, post-translation of proline decreases as we age, or uptake/absorption of proline is reduced (aside from just reduced AA uptake in general). Also, using leucine as a signaling molecule for collagen synthesis, could this perhaps be non optimal (i.e. skeletal muscle synthesis vs. collagen synthesis require different amounts of precursor)? To add, some octapeptides have also been shown to be absorbed in a rat model, although these were made from D amino acids (doi: 10.1073/pnas.91.5.1942).
I still think collagens does not help that much for connective tissue but also see your point, it felt weird listening Layne talk about luceine on collagens at the first place if gotta be honest. Anyway good content, will check your opinions on other things also 👏
I would love to hear a video on internal hyaluronic acid supplementation.
thank you.
He's claiming that lack of evidence is evidence of lack, and in this case it very much isn't.
But, if we have limited money, do we really need to spend it on collagen vs other things? Over 10 years that's a lot of cash. Does it really add much when stacked on top of exercise and a good diet?
Make bone broth.
It is also possible to mix collagen hydrolysate with whey isolate
Anecdotal but my knees felt better on it. Although I was never in real knee pain to start with, I noticed things were just smoother overall when on it. Stopped taking it and noticed knees weren't quite as smooth. Went back on and within 10 days could notice a difference. Didn't see any skin improvement, but my skin has always been decent.
This is what I’ve noticed as well.
same
There are systematic reviews looking at collagen for joint health. It looks like it works.
Even if collagen worked, it would take much longer than 10 days to experience any meaningful change in the connective tissue due to the slow rate cellular turnover.
@@austaneousc5802 Probably true. But many people report, and some studies show, a quick reduction in symptoms such as joint discomfort. Like within days. I'm thinking specifically of UC-II. Why? Because of anti-inflammatory effects: Tregs and cytokines.
Is bone broth considered the same or have the same compounds as collagen supplements?
Yes, collagen does help with connective tissue because I've had chronic demertitis for 20 years and by taking collegen it helps prevent my skin from cracking/spliting compared to not taking it.
Suplements aside, what about consuming good old homemade collagen gel?
It is made by cooking bones long enough to strip & extract the bone marrow. That's how you get collagen soup that turns into the gel. It's been used for generations but, since I'm not a scientist, idk how effective it is or would it be more effective if done on lower temperatures.
When it comes to collagen supplementation, I say we all need to base the affects on how we feel. I noticed an immediate difference in my joint paint/health after just a two weeks of drinking one scoop of collagen in my coffee every morning. (collagen peptides powder). I also noticed the same difference in reverse - two weeks without taking collagen in my coffee, the joint pain in my hands was noticeable once again. No other dietary or physical movement changes were involved.
I can't remember the vlog, but I've heard that hot coffee destroys the benefits of collagen. Might've been Thomas Delauer.
Thanks for passing that on. According to Google, it's probably okay: "Generally, collagen protein can be safely added to hot coffee, as brewing temperatures are usually below the point at which collagen proteins break down." Based on my own experience of noticeable affects from drinking it at least 4-5 days/week vs. not for a couple weeks, I'd say it's holding up fine in the coffee. But that's standard coffee-maker heat level. Probably not so for pour-over, old-fashioned percolator or campfire coffee.@@trank68
I did an experiment where the only thing I changed was my collage intake 3 months on, 3 months off - I cna say for sure my skin looked better ok collagen, particularly the skin on my hands which has always looked papery since I was a teen. So I think considering it’s harmless enough even if the science is not there I definitely see a benefit, is for me it’s a go.
Thanks!
You are welcome.
What would be the amino acids that help in connective tissue/ collagen synthesis?
It's not just the AA's, it's the di- & tri-peptides.
I have been taking marine collagen and my joints and shoulder problems have felt much better along with other supplements.
What about weight gain. My aunt exercises daily since she is 20 and now is 60 and after taking collagen for 2 months, she started to gain weight.
I'm using collagen (1, 2, 3, 5, and 10) as a temporary supplement for my resistance training and simultaneous dieting for weight loss (yes, it does in fact work). When I'm done wioth the weight looss phase, I'll just be shifting over to ground beef for natural collagen by way of whole food. Using collagen to protect my joints a bit, as I'n older now and still want to work out. Might pair it up with glocosamine, which really works wonders for joints as well.
My question and comment are what about whey protein and collagen protein taken together, and taking melatonin which presumably also denatures and gets "cut" still has an effect.
Can you make a video about BPC-157 or Tb500?
Not just leucine, rather branch chained amino acids can increase muscle protein synthesis with exercise
oh my god, I finally found an adequate video these days! It doesn’t matter whether you eat meat or collagen, the body breaks everything down to microelements, and then decides for itself whether to send them to collagen, muscles, or wherever else
You can increase collagen production by taking vitamin c, tryptophan, lysine and other amino acids.
Ah, you were 5 hrs earlier!😊
Glycine
Beef and peppers?
Brad Marshal has been studying research on collagen recently, more specifically the amino acids Arganine and glycine and their effects on insulin sensitivity and metabolic health.
Improved metabolic health will reault in better energy levels, and may also reduce inflammation.
I'm more interested in this than building skeletal muscle.
So which is better may depend on your nutrition goals.
I'd love to hear the two of you chatting 😉
I'm not going to stop taking collagen in my smoothies. It's just one of my protein sources. I eat meat, eggs, and dairy as well.
Sometime I make it a game to see how many protein sources I can get in a day, 5 is minimum.
I'm just an engineer who doesn't know biology, so these videos are always interesting to me. I've been trying to figure out how to use Collagen vs Whey Protein in my weekly routine, where I swim in an intense interval training mode 3-4 times per week (like HIIT exercise) and try to lift occasionally. My exercise is generally in the morning before 10 AM. I generally put whey protein in my water bottle, so have it before, during, and after exercise.
For Collagen protein, I consider it as part of my last meal in the evening. So perhaps with Greek yogurt at 7 PM every few days. This is because I recall hearing that Collagen protein might help with sleep. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea?
Glycine is considered to have calming effects, being a inhibitory neurotransmitter. You might consider:
-Whey, with carbs, post workout
-Collagen in the AM, empty stomach. Before bed is also logical.
-Glycine powder before bed. It tastes sweet, btw.
Are there studies looking for collagen vs chondroitin and Glucosamide; for connective tissue?
surely the curve for collagen synthesis would be much different to that of skeletal muscle. Muscle grows fast, goes fast too, fast 1-2hr peak. Connective tissue doesnt. I would imagine the response would be hard to detect
Is taking bone broth and collagen redundant?
no. more is better. the global Supplement Industry is projected to hit a market size of $240 Billion by 2028.
Any chance the benefits of collagen that arent found in supplementation or studies is actually just a confounding factor in the source product, like bone broth?
whether it's real or placebo effect, I can 100% report that my joints feel better when taking collagen. I was skeptical & my wife had bought a bunch, so I gave it a try. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. I'm curious to understand the underlying mechanisms (could this possibly be a real effect?).
Great video, you're becoming one of my favorite creators in this space with the way you respectfully dissect others interpretations. I hope Layne responds as I also respect him a lot!
Questions that I have.
How much Collagen were the participants given?
If our gut also consumes collagen, then if dose is low, little if any collagen will get into the blood.
Were they also taking Vitamin C and/other co-factors?
Were participants doing exercises that worked the connective tissues to stimulate the need for growth/repair?
If memory serves, in the study Norton is commenting on, a lot. Like 20g.
Collagen dosing is a bit tricky. Studies have used anywhere from 1-30g. For the bioactive peptides, it appears that VERY small quantities make it into serum. So large doses may not be necessary.
In studies looking at UC-II (undenatured chicken collagen) they use far less than 1g. But it still seems to work...
Sorry, but should i take for my bad knees or not? Or is it similar to Pascal's wager - we don't know if it works, but by taking it in case it doesn't work i just loose a bit money, but if it works I'll be winning big time?