Dave is the best. So good at de-tangling complicated questions into their counterparts and weighing the evidence. I personally messaged him for some tendonitis advice and he gave very detailed advice and assurance, which I did not expect at all, as he's probably very busy. That meant a whole lot to me. If you are reading this, thank you so much again. Keep making stuff Dave! I decided to and managed to quit vaping e-cigarettes since that discussion as well.
Well said! I love the approach and personally loved the story at the end on the wonderful job of rebranding that collagen has done with regard to food waste :) - Jason
In the collagen studies (Praet et al 2019; Gregory et al 2017; Jerger et al 2023) they should have included some sort protein placebo (e.g., whey or pea) to account for increase in protein intake. An isocaloric control (apparently maltodextrin seem to be a common choice) without accounting for the protein content is not a good control. Best case scenario they would have 2 controls: a protein based and a maltodextrin based placebo.
creatine have not much debate to have on since its the most studied supplement, research are pretty clear about it. and if you hear anything bad about it, its myths that have been debunked.
Yes. I love the idea for this as a series, creatine is one I'm most interested in. It seems very beneficial in most sports, maybe more nuanced in climbing as strength gains are at least partially offset by weight gains.
Like he mentions in the video creatine is actually proven effective through evidence based science. It's literally the counterexample he uses against collagen.
@@dkeener13 the weight gains in the vast majority of climbers is insignificant if it actually helps you get stronger, especially in the long run. Some people report getting extremely pumped after supplementing creatine, now that is actually a big issue for most climbers. But you might have to try and find out how you respond to know for sure.
As a cell biologist, this is a fantastic video Dave. Thanks for delving into the data so well, and in such a balanced way. Would be really keen to hear your views on creatine - I have my own, but would be really interested to hear from you based on your experience and knowledge of nutrition!
Hi Dave. Your videos on nutrition are great. Love the detailed and unbiased approach. Would be great to hear your views on Creatine some time as this is another supplement popular among climbers. In particular it's supposed to help with explosive power, which as an older climber I'm working hard to hold on to.
Creatine is the most scientifically studied supplement that actually does something. Physical and mental. In short - yes just take it. My only concern in relation specifically to climbing is does it cause your forearms to pump out ….?
Creatine won't help you with explosive power, training explosive power will. Creatine might have a marginal effect on training, however, so it's probably worth a shot if you respond well.
@christophertonkin4949 i actually asked Dave if he supplemented creatine and he told me that he gets enough of it with his current diet(primarily from red meat i think)
@Hopesfallout creatine facilitates higher quality training for power and maximal strength. Quality reps are what is important, and creatine can help an athlete achieve more high quality reps (assuming their programming is also good).
if it's mainly fingers that limit the number of your trainings (e.g "I need to rest 2 days to fully recover my fingers"), I don't find collagen to do anything worthwhile. Maybe worth supplementing if you're vegetarian though.
I think you missed the key ingredients in the gelatin study which was that it was enriched with vitamin C. as we know from how connective tissue is form in anatomy, tendons are formed from bundles of collagen fibres which are formed of bundles of fibrils which in turn is form from filaments. The fibroblasts as the cells that form the filaments require vitamin c to regrow the filaments, Vitamin C also increases the proliferation rate of fibroblasts. So that's why that study may have got the results it got over the gelatin side. I always recommend people have orange juice or better still orange as fruit for a healthy supplement to get the high dose of vitamin C for tendon health, but like you said there are plenty of other factors that are at play. Rest and over training, is the main cause of injury in my experience.
As a 52 year old ultra-endurance athlete who has practiced a plant-based diet for 34 years, I second your skepticism of any model that suggests normal human glycine synthesis and collagen maintenance requires grams of supplementation daily is required. Given the quantity of calories I consume to fuel my training, it is trivial to consume 1.4-2.2 g/kg daily from whole plant foods (no supplements).
Wow this felt like it was really well done and thorough. The part that stood out the most is there's no attacking any ideas or anyone, you agreed with points of other views than your own without any issue because you legitimately seem to just agree with those points. Overall it tells me this was made by a mind that's not reactive, can look at all the sides of a topic and simply take the best ideas and positions from all of it and present it in a way that isn't definite truth but what you believe makes the most sense at the current time. Which long story short is a massive breath of fresh air. I'll be watching your videos in the future for sure and will be recommending you to my friends!
Absolutely wicked, thank you for this. I find it SO hard to detangle all the misinformation online and i really feel like this is something i can trust. Can't thank you enough.
Thank you for yet another informative video, Dave! You often speak of eating sufficient high quality protein and the importance of a healthy diet. I'd like to hear your take on general nutrition in a diet that would not require supplementation. Or even a video walking through your own personal diet, what do you eat in an average week, for example.
Thank you Dave for keeping things complicated. :D It's funny how you go quite in-depth on some actual studies (the lack of studies in the field makes it a bit more convenient of course ;) and still manage to keep your video shorter than the content of some more "collagen-enthusiastic" creators who seem very concerned about our time and limited ability to understand biochemical processes. I liked that you showed and cited actual papers word for word, too much information gets lost in inaccurate paraphrases these days. As for my own collagen supplementation, I was aware of its esoteric nature, having read and at least partially grasped the meaning of some of your cited studies. But rupturing a biceps tendon makes one desperate I guess. Still, your content serves as a well-needed reality check, thank you for that again!
You probably need many years, perhaps decades, to see any benefits of additional glycine/proline intake. Since you supplement a little more, and your body has to rely less on endogenous synthesis, and since some amino acids like glycine can act akin to mediators of internal processes, maybe there is a long term benefit.
You raise very good points but there is a study (with no apparent conflicts) that compared Collagen supplements to just protein supplements and found that Collagen was better for the endpoints studied which was skin healing (not ligament strength). It's a 2019 study which was a randomized double-blind trial with 31 men who had serious burns which found significantly higher healing in the Collagen group as compared to a group taking the same amount of soy protein. Of course, the mechanism may be different in ligaments, but this does tend to show that Collagen isn't just masking the benefits of increased protein.
This is unbelievable. Loving this kind of video. Thanks for doing all the work for us. I would love to hear you talk about Creatine in climbing. Maybe the trade offs between the weight and strength it brings. Thanks for the amazing content
@@bzkdnb while I agree, I have far more aesthetic goals than climbing goals. I find the climbing focus interesting, it’s such a treat having such an interesting topic being spoken about from a fresh angle.
Loved this and your AG1 video. This one might not be as popular, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the typical endurance athlete diet. A lot of us climbers are also interested in trail and mountain running, and carbohydrates are the foundation of endurance nutrition. That being said, I (for one) align far more with your dietary perspective, having been carnivore and low-carb for much of my life and generally animal-based now. How do performance endurance athletes think about these two potentially competing perspectives? Thanks, Dave!
Dietary carbohydrates are only the foundation of endurance nutrition if you eat a carb rich diet. I discussed this in a lot of detail in an earlier video on the ketogenic diet in sport.
Dave - again thank you so much for this crystal clear, authentically motivated inquiry. Can’t fully express how much your trusted voice helps with my clarity on these important and often desperately muddied waters. Obviously I share your lack of certainty but the direction your scepticism points towards STINKS of truth to me! Big thanks!
Love this Dave! Lots of advertisements for collagen in climbing but not as much research being chucked in with these advertisements has had me skeptical.
used to be worthwhile to experiment, but collagen has seemingly more than doubled in cost in this last year. was an easy addition to my morning tea, but now is more expensive than just adding a half scoop of whey into my diet to increase protein content of breakfast.
Fantastic video, thanks Dave! I really appreciate your data-driven, nuanced and scientific approach. This may not be a dietary supplement, but I'd be curious to see what you make of skin care products for skin healing and conditioning. There are balms and lotions galore, many of them seem to follow the same marketing models as supplements, and very few of them are developed with any experimental research or understanding of biochemistry. I would also be interested to in your scientific approach to some alternative treatments that are quite popular in climbing circles, such as cupping, chiropractic, and accupuncture rings. I understand the urge to try things out of desperation, but I'm totally unconvinced by other climbers' anecdotal evidence for these interventions. I'd also really appreciate an explanation and how-to video for reading sport science papers, and how you appraise the available evidence on a given subject. Thanks for the time you put into your research and videos, it really shows, and it's extremely useful for so many of us in the climbing community!
Would love to hear your thoughts on glucosamine sulphate and chondroitin sulphate. I have a knee injury and am often recommended this but the evidence seems to be more anecdotal than anything else!
Great video, Dave! Vitamin D is also the only supplement I take. Interested in your opinion about AG1, hope it gets enough votes so you'll make a video about it.
Hi Dave, absolutely love your in depth videos on nutrition. Brilliant to have someone so experienced in training and nutrition, to tie the two together. If anything I'd love even more depth to the videos! Keep up the good work, Dave for PM!
Great video, very interesting! Glad you are doing this series, would be very helpful for everyone I think. In post soviet space bulls blood is being transformed into "healthy" snack (it just have loads of sugar unfortunately) that should help with iron deficiency. It doesn't take like blood at all and everyone loves it, especially children! We eat it a lot in the winter when it's cold - sugar + blood definitely gives you a lot of power for climbing in chilly UK weather
excellent video, thanks for presenting this information in such a clear and accessible manner. I look forward to the rest of this series, including the Athletic Greens episode- I confess i bought their supplement after being barraged with ads. Worth noting that I felt no improvement , perhaps because i already get sufficient fresh fruits and veg in my diet already .
I Love this detailed health and nutrition content, thats backed by evidence. Would be cool to hear your thoughts on Creatine, Whey Protein, and perhaps vitamin supplements in General. Also what supplements do you take? Keep it up dave!!!
@@climbermacleod How much do you take and do you take it with k2. There seems to be a synergy between vit- K2 , D3 E and A where by one can deplete another or when not present with the other can negatively affect processes in the body such as calcium absorption.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on AG1, like you mentioned. Also the sort of belt and braces stuff like multivitamins and fish oil to support health and injury resilience in athletes specifically.
hi Dave, you mentioned your 150g of protein a day - would you be interested in doing a post on your typical meals / eating schedule in a given day, or do you have something already similar you could point me to ? I don't think i usually get enough protein in general, sometimes i do, but seeing how you get to those numbers would be insightful. thanks for these nutrition vids, they are excellent. also, thank you for the make or break book - i've had a my first a2 injury at the end of my first year of climbing and i'm using make or break as a guide into the rehab process.
Hi Dave, thanks for the detailed breakdown. Have you ever looked at BPC-157. Seems potentially helpful for tendon growth but maybe still too limited in terms of studies at this point.
Just to get this clear: You're considering to be injected with or ingest a substance that is illegal in most of the Western world to make something happen that your body should be capable of naturally and that millions upon millions of athletic bodies are doing successfully without any supplemental assistance?
Thank you for this video Dave. I am definitely curious to hear a breakdown of Athletic Greens; I began taking it about a month ago and want to know more about its efficacy
Most people dont need vitamin or mineral Supplements (especially not a couple of 100s % of the daily need) as they get enough in their diet. Taking high doses (like ag1) for a Long time might Even be harmful (i think it was an increased cancer Risk). Dont believe paid climbing Channels, Even if they claim their content is evidence Based. They are paid to do funny conmercials, they Even delete critical comments. Just Google reviews about Vitamin Supplements and you get plenty of information. Look for papers and Not reviews by influencers. If they Review it, check that they Talk about the effect of these super high doses.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video. Your explanation of a complex topic was exceptionally well-structured and detailed. I look forward to watching more videos like this from you.
Very nice video! Maybe a discussion on creatine supplementation could be interesting? It is quite common among climbers and, from what I see, also in other sports (powerlifting, cycling). As always, thanks for the great content!
Tendons have poor blood supply. Shame as blood is what brings the good stuff and takes the bad stuff - for recovery. I concentrate on getting blood to the area. Repeated heat (and even contrast bathing) and massage to get the blood in and blood out. Seems to work for me and my old body- haven’t died or anything yet.
Dave, excellent video (per normal), and I think more videos detailing supplements would be welcomed. Some supplements to consider would be Protein and Creatine. Thank you for your research and clear communication. Your efforts are very much appreciated
Great information, been trying HCP for a while, leucine and a vitamin C added, and not felt any difference so discontinued. Michael Yessis, involved in disseminating Soviet research into English, said literature in these studies suggest 1x20 reps does most for cappilirisation of soft tissue, this I have used for years.
Thanks for the breakdown. I took collagen for a few months but over the last year or so I've just taken plenty of whey protein + 5g creatine daily and I'm happy to hear you're aligned with that strategy.
@@climbermacleod Totally fair, not saying you're doing it too, but you mention that creatine is backed by better research than collagen + the importance of getting enough protein, so I took it as an endorsement :) I opt for nutrient-dense whole foods when I can but struggle to hit my macro goals without supplementation, so I figure supplementation is better than undershooting my nutrient requirements.
Thank you for this Dave. Really helpful. I've been taking collagen for about 6 months and honestly feel like it doesn't do anything. Probably because I make a conscious effort to maintain a wholesome diet. I will probably start protein and creatine supplementation. Maybe just creatine. Would be very interested in your thoughts on AG1 and other powdered products. P.S. can also confirm that vitamin D supplementation has real benefits from first hand experience.
As a woman currently in peri-menopause I see a lot of literature saying that collagen production is dropping rapidly from this point in our lives. So would it still be accurate to believe my body will continue to produce enough for my needs if I consume enough protein? I'm not keen on taking supplements, so I try to add it to my diet through things like bone broths and I buy Chief collagen bars, because they're the only brand I've found that tries to avoid adding extra crap. By the way, it's been great to find your channel. I've been listening to your videos like podcasts as my car radio has about given up the ghost. I appreciate the nutrition side and connecting it to climbing.
Great video Dave! As a scientist (all be it in a different field) I appreciate that these studies are quite hard to perform with many confounding factors. Having said that I'm not massively convinced by the way they presented the data in ref 11 fig 1. Looks more like P hacking than an honest presentation since they offer no real justification for reporting the CSA at 60% and 70% tendon length. I think the bigger takeaway from that paper is, as you say later, a 14-week resistance training program is good for tendons!
@@climbermacleod I think another thing to consider would be the effect on trained vs untrained athletes. I can't remember the studies exactly, but I was under the impression that supplementation (e.g. whey) had a greater effect on untrained people when they started training vs an athlete who trains regularly. I imagine the response of finger tendons to training of a reasonably good climber with good nutrition vs an untrained volunteer will further confound any conclusions.
What is your take on the Omega 3 fish oil? This is something we don't get enough through "standard" diet. It allegedly has a significant impact on mental health and brain function, etc. This is the only supplement I take and I do feel difference, although placebo is a powerful thing! What supplements do you take and how do you tailor your supplements to your diet?
How does this relate to your thoughts relating to bone broth? I understand not wanting to waste money on supplements but for instance chicken backs are usually a buck or two a lb here in the states, and it seems these types of foods have been common and preserved in more native diets (native Americans through mexico, various brothy soups in Asian countries etc). There’s lots of stories within the western price circles of natives eating marrow raw, cooking all the leftovers into soup etc. Seems like beyond the idea that supplementing collagen may be detrimental that consuming gelatinous portions has been a large aspect of more traditional eating
Thanks a lot for another insightful video and food for thought. It would be interesting to see if a group of climbers with a collagen rich diet would show better tendon health compared to a group that eats mainly lean meat or maybe even follows a vegetarian diet. I live in Korea and a lot of dishes consist of fatty meat like for example pork belly (including ther skin) or chicken feet. I did feel bad about the high amount of fat because of the calories involved, but now it seems that this might not be as bad, as it could come with a potentially beneficial collagen boost for my tendons for free.
Would much appreciate more nutrition/diet videos! I haven't consistently made efforts to improve my climbing since I was about 8, but information like this is very helpful for my resistance training and general health journeys. One that I haven't been able to disentangle: is there, or is there not, a relationship between dietary and bloodstream cholesterol? And the whole .*saturated fat debate too...there's so much on all sides, and I haven't the will to dig through the literature they cite.
Thanks Dave! Actually for me the most useful thought was about relying on supplements and missing some other nutrients. Concerning collagen, I'd also consider people's gastrointestinal conditions like low stomach acidity or some other issues which could make peptides absorption easier for them then digesting real meat. And I'd be grateful for a video on creatine supplementation!
So good to see an objective take on collagen backed up with real research and facts. I'd love to see a video on Stem cell therapy for joint/ligament/tendon repair!
I'm keen to hear your take on Creatine - the only supplement I take. I also tried a cheaper version of Athletic Greens - it was truly revolting and whatever benefit I had was probably down to the extra glass of water of a morning; but maybe I didn't give it time.... Would be great to see your take on that too.
Just eat the membranes from eggs with your eggs. Simply keep the shell intact, then roll the membrane up like a sleeping bag against the shell to remove the membrane. Anecdotally I've notices a huge difference in my skin and ligaments since I've started supplementing. Like my skin is entirely different and more elastic, stronger.. I now have dead skin remain intact to the point where I have to exfoliate..I haven't had this happen since I was a child.
Much respect to you Dave. Great channel and very informative content. A study is study of how a thing affects OTHER PEOPLE, NOT how it affects you. Try a collagen supplement for 30-90 days. See if there are positive results for you. I discovered collagen does not benefit me after 60 days at double the "recommended" dose of 10g per day. I went up to 20g per day and my nails, skin, and hair remained unchanged in their "quality". A close friend and his girlfriend see remarkable results after 30 days at 10g a day. Now, a silica supplement like one by a German company DOES provide positive results on my nails, hair, and skin. Try and see.
Another great video. I really appreciate your scientific rigor and commitment to transparency. Is there a dietary difference between supplementing you’re normal nutrition with animal or vegetable based protein?
Thanks. Yes, with the plant proteins you just need to take care to blend some different sources since some of them have lower amounts of certain aminos.
Thanks for the subtle mention of your new book! I will definitely be picking up a copy, by chance will you be releasing a hard cover version? I would much rather own that than the paperback.
Really interesting as always Dave, would love to hear your thoughts on creatine, it being one of the most common and, in climbing over the years, controversial
I think it would be really helpful if you did a video on what you can do if you are not able to eat red meat. You are a really big advocate for its consumption but due to a tick bite I have developed an allergy to red meat and was wondering what you think good alternatives might be.
Recent studies are showing a substantial portion of collagen supplements on the market are high in heavy metals. Make bone broth people, huge benefits.
Dave, a detailed look at creatine would be helpful. My personal experience with it recently has been positive but there have been a few significant drawbacks
Damn I started supplementing collagen in early August. Looking forward to hearing your take on it! I wonder if age factors in? Im almost 60 and im told us old farts dont produce as much collagen. Also other than collagen im a plant based athlete. I could listen to you all day bud! Definitely strength training is magic!
Most people do have the patience, but you can just use the chapter markers or see the short version here ruclips.net/user/shorts114EDZcKCk0?feature=share
Interesting stuff, I've been taking 10g of collagen a day. Its never easy to know how much of an influence one particular supplement can make in the grand scheme of a good diet along with everything else but one thing my wife did notice is that my thinning hair on top has grown back a little and I do feel my skin also feels healthier and less dry which is enough to make me think its doing some good.
there are multiple people claiming it does help. but it seems there is always someone that claims about something that it doesn't work due to "not enough scientific evidence". remember the amazing scientists that in one study they claim one thing and in another they claim the exact opposite... and then everyone is an expert on the topic and select whatever they believe or whatever fits their agenda based on these studies
Ha! I was just speaking with staff at my local health food store about this recently and said, "They've come up with a clever way of re-marketing cheap left-over bits from the cattle industry into something far more profitable, without significant expense to themselves". That said, I do buy unflavoured collagen because it's the best form of protein powder for my smoothies.
Not being able to distinguish simply increased protein intake from collagen specifically is a good point. But the 15 week study showing no effects of collagen didn't co-supplement with vitamin C? Reference 15 did not include vitamin C either. Further my understanding is that the most beneficial effects are also seen when collagen is supplemented before exercise thus the plasma is enriched when connective tissue has substantially increased blood flow.
Dave, I'm really curious about your thoughts on Huel (Black - low carb), marketed as a 'nutritionally complete food'. Compared to AG-1 (which I think is marketed using similar language), Huel seems to contain appropriate levels of protein (40g pea/rice), Iron (70% NRV), vitamin D (80% NRV) and fatty acids (around 5g each for Omega-3 and Omega-6) per dose. I use it to supplement a diet mainly consisting of otherwise unprocessed foods and animal protein, plus creatine. Been using it for years and I think it works well for my lifestyle. This is reason enough for my own personal justification but I am keen to hear your take. Your recent guest appearance on Climbing Stuff was good craic!
Dave is the best. So good at de-tangling complicated questions into their counterparts and weighing the evidence. I personally messaged him for some tendonitis advice and he gave very detailed advice and assurance, which I did not expect at all, as he's probably very busy. That meant a whole lot to me. If you are reading this, thank you so much again. Keep making stuff Dave! I decided to and managed to quit vaping e-cigarettes since that discussion as well.
Well said! I love the approach and personally loved the story at the end on the wonderful job of rebranding that collagen has done with regard to food waste :) - Jason
Thank you Jason.
I have had amazing experience with collagen supplementation healing my chronic tennis elbow.
In the collagen studies (Praet et al 2019; Gregory et al 2017; Jerger et al 2023) they should have included some sort protein placebo (e.g., whey or pea) to account for increase in protein intake. An isocaloric control (apparently maltodextrin seem to be a common choice) without accounting for the protein content is not a good control. Best case scenario they would have 2 controls: a protein based and a maltodextrin based placebo.
What is your take on creatine? Would absolutely love the episode on that.
I was also wondering the same. Its common supplement that seems to come up in discussions
creatine have not much debate to have on since its the most studied supplement, research are pretty clear about it. and if you hear anything bad about it, its myths that have been debunked.
Yes. I love the idea for this as a series, creatine is one I'm most interested in. It seems very beneficial in most sports, maybe more nuanced in climbing as strength gains are at least partially offset by weight gains.
Like he mentions in the video creatine is actually proven effective through evidence based science. It's literally the counterexample he uses against collagen.
@@dkeener13 the weight gains in the vast majority of climbers is insignificant if it actually helps you get stronger, especially in the long run. Some people report getting extremely pumped after supplementing creatine, now that is actually a big issue for most climbers. But you might have to try and find out how you respond to know for sure.
I am not really interested into supplements but would like to say your videos about feet placements were pivotal in my climbing journey.
As a cell biologist, this is a fantastic video Dave. Thanks for delving into the data so well, and in such a balanced way. Would be really keen to hear your views on creatine - I have my own, but would be really interested to hear from you based on your experience and knowledge of nutrition!
As a 53 year old have just started added creatine to my routine too. Noticing improved recovery and strength almost immediately.
@@timharmoni1846 likewise. My, short, explosive power has increased. No doubt.
A cell biologist?. Asking for creatine?. The most researched and published supplement out there.. you don't read ?
Started using collgen three weeks ago and my knee pain and snapping has stopped. I will continue. Thanks Dave
It even cure cancer
Hi Dave. Your videos on nutrition are great. Love the detailed and unbiased approach. Would be great to hear your views on Creatine some time as this is another supplement popular among climbers. In particular it's supposed to help with explosive power, which as an older climber I'm working hard to hold on to.
Creatine is the most scientifically studied supplement that actually does something. Physical and mental. In short - yes just take it. My only concern in relation specifically to climbing is does it cause your forearms to pump out ….?
Creatine won't help you with explosive power, training explosive power will. Creatine might have a marginal effect on training, however, so it's probably worth a shot if you respond well.
@christophertonkin4949 i actually asked Dave if he supplemented creatine and he told me that he gets enough of it with his current diet(primarily from red meat i think)
@Hopesfallout creatine facilitates higher quality training for power and maximal strength. Quality reps are what is important, and creatine can help an athlete achieve more high quality reps (assuming their programming is also good).
if it's mainly fingers that limit the number of your trainings (e.g "I need to rest 2 days to fully recover my fingers"), I don't find collagen to do anything worthwhile. Maybe worth supplementing if you're vegetarian though.
I think you missed the key ingredients in the gelatin study which was that it was enriched with vitamin C.
as we know from how connective tissue is form in anatomy, tendons are formed from bundles of collagen fibres which are formed of bundles of fibrils which in turn is form from filaments.
The fibroblasts as the cells that form the filaments require vitamin c to regrow the filaments, Vitamin C also increases the proliferation rate of fibroblasts.
So that's why that study may have got the results it got over the gelatin side.
I always recommend people have orange juice or better still orange as fruit for a healthy supplement to get the high dose of vitamin C for tendon health, but like you said there are plenty of other factors that are at play.
Rest and over training, is the main cause of injury in my experience.
As a 52 year old ultra-endurance athlete who has practiced a plant-based diet for 34 years, I second your skepticism of any model that suggests normal human glycine synthesis and collagen maintenance requires grams of supplementation daily is required. Given the quantity of calories I consume to fuel my training, it is trivial to consume 1.4-2.2 g/kg daily from whole plant foods (no supplements).
The well rounded thoughtful approach to these topics is under-appreciated since it isn't a "headline grabber", but well done!
Wow this felt like it was really well done and thorough. The part that stood out the most is there's no attacking any ideas or anyone, you agreed with points of other views than your own without any issue because you legitimately seem to just agree with those points.
Overall it tells me this was made by a mind that's not reactive, can look at all the sides of a topic and simply take the best ideas and positions from all of it and present it in a way that isn't definite truth but what you believe makes the most sense at the current time.
Which long story short is a massive breath of fresh air. I'll be watching your videos in the future for sure and will be recommending you to my friends!
Absolutely wicked, thank you for this. I find it SO hard to detangle all the misinformation online and i really feel like this is something i can trust. Can't thank you enough.
Thank you for yet another informative video, Dave! You often speak of eating sufficient high quality protein and the importance of a healthy diet. I'd like to hear your take on general nutrition in a diet that would not require supplementation. Or even a video walking through your own personal diet, what do you eat in an average week, for example.
The AG1 vid would be amazing! Keep the great content up!
Thank you Dave for keeping things complicated. :D It's funny how you go quite in-depth on some actual studies (the lack of studies in the field makes it a bit more convenient of course ;) and still manage to keep your video shorter than the content of some more "collagen-enthusiastic" creators who seem very concerned about our time and limited ability to understand biochemical processes. I liked that you showed and cited actual papers word for word, too much information gets lost in inaccurate paraphrases these days.
As for my own collagen supplementation, I was aware of its esoteric nature, having read and at least partially grasped the meaning of some of your cited studies. But rupturing a biceps tendon makes one desperate I guess. Still, your content serves as a well-needed reality check, thank you for that again!
You probably need many years, perhaps decades, to see any benefits of additional glycine/proline intake. Since you supplement a little more, and your body has to rely less on endogenous synthesis, and since some amino acids like glycine can act akin to mediators of internal processes, maybe there is a long term benefit.
You raise very good points but there is a study (with no apparent conflicts) that compared Collagen supplements to just protein supplements and found that Collagen was better for the endpoints studied which was skin healing (not ligament strength). It's a 2019 study which was a randomized double-blind trial with 31 men who had serious burns which found significantly higher healing in the Collagen group as compared to a group taking the same amount of soy protein. Of course, the mechanism may be different in ligaments, but this does tend to show that Collagen isn't just masking the benefits of increased protein.
This is unbelievable. Loving this kind of video. Thanks for doing all the work for us.
I would love to hear you talk about Creatine in climbing. Maybe the trade offs between the weight and strength it brings.
Thanks for the amazing content
Creatine and Glutamine too!
creatine whole year around. just go to any bodybuilding forum or vid at yt about it.
@@bzkdnb while I agree, I have far more aesthetic goals than climbing goals.
I find the climbing focus interesting, it’s such a treat having such an interesting topic being spoken about from a fresh angle.
Loved this and your AG1 video. This one might not be as popular, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the typical endurance athlete diet. A lot of us climbers are also interested in trail and mountain running, and carbohydrates are the foundation of endurance nutrition. That being said, I (for one) align far more with your dietary perspective, having been carnivore and low-carb for much of my life and generally animal-based now. How do performance endurance athletes think about these two potentially competing perspectives? Thanks, Dave!
Dietary carbohydrates are only the foundation of endurance nutrition if you eat a carb rich diet. I discussed this in a lot of detail in an earlier video on the ketogenic diet in sport.
Dave - again thank you so much for this crystal clear, authentically motivated inquiry.
Can’t fully express how much your trusted voice helps with my clarity on these important and often desperately muddied waters.
Obviously I share your lack of certainty but the direction your scepticism points towards STINKS of truth to me!
Big thanks!
Love this Dave! Lots of advertisements for collagen in climbing but not as much research being chucked in with these advertisements has had me skeptical.
used to be worthwhile to experiment, but collagen has seemingly more than doubled in cost in this last year. was an easy addition to my morning tea, but now is more expensive than just adding a half scoop of whey into my diet to increase protein content of breakfast.
Fantastic video, thanks Dave! I really appreciate your data-driven, nuanced and scientific approach.
This may not be a dietary supplement, but I'd be curious to see what you make of skin care products for skin healing and conditioning. There are balms and lotions galore, many of them seem to follow the same marketing models as supplements, and very few of them are developed with any experimental research or understanding of biochemistry.
I would also be interested to in your scientific approach to some alternative treatments that are quite popular in climbing circles, such as cupping, chiropractic, and accupuncture rings. I understand the urge to try things out of desperation, but I'm totally unconvinced by other climbers' anecdotal evidence for these interventions.
I'd also really appreciate an explanation and how-to video for reading sport science papers, and how you appraise the available evidence on a given subject. Thanks for the time you put into your research and videos, it really shows, and it's extremely useful for so many of us in the climbing community!
Oh man, Dave trying to keep a straight face while attempting to find any scientific value in cupping or chiropractic would be hilarious.
Would love to hear your thoughts on glucosamine sulphate and chondroitin sulphate. I have a knee injury and am often recommended this but the evidence seems to be more anecdotal than anything else!
Thank you so much Dave! For future episodes, two supplements come to mind - magnesium and fish oil.
Good choices and definitely on the list. Both things I have supplemented with in the past and still considering.
Great video, Dave! Vitamin D is also the only supplement I take.
Interested in your opinion about AG1, hope it gets enough votes so you'll make a video about it.
If you don’t take magnesium, you should at least check your levels.
Hi Dave, absolutely love your in depth videos on nutrition. Brilliant to have someone so experienced in training and nutrition, to tie the two together. If anything I'd love even more depth to the videos! Keep up the good work, Dave for PM!
Great video, very interesting! Glad you are doing this series, would be very helpful for everyone I think. In post soviet space bulls blood is being transformed into "healthy" snack (it just have loads of sugar unfortunately) that should help with iron deficiency. It doesn't take like blood at all and everyone loves it, especially children! We eat it a lot in the winter when it's cold - sugar + blood definitely gives you a lot of power for climbing in chilly UK weather
Would love if you'd discuss magnesium l-threonate!
I always come here for the no bullshit climbing content, as aleays Dave delivers!
excellent video, thanks for presenting this information in such a clear and accessible manner. I look forward to the rest of this series, including the Athletic Greens episode- I confess i bought their supplement after being barraged with ads. Worth noting that I felt no improvement , perhaps because i already get sufficient fresh fruits and veg in my diet already .
The information this guy is giving is very interesting and what he says makes a world of sense.
yay!
creatine next please!
I Love this detailed health and nutrition content, thats backed by evidence. Would be cool to hear your thoughts on Creatine, Whey Protein, and perhaps vitamin supplements in General.
Also what supplements do you take?
Keep it up dave!!!
I take vitamin D.
@@climbermacleod How much do you take and do you take it with k2. There seems to be a synergy between vit- K2 , D3 E and A where by one can deplete another or when not present with the other can negatively affect processes in the body such as calcium absorption.
Love this sort of content, and would love to see more! Creatine and athletic greens would be two other topics I’d be real interested in!
Would be amazing to see your take on AG1!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on AG1, like you mentioned. Also the sort of belt and braces stuff like multivitamins and fish oil to support health and injury resilience in athletes specifically.
hi Dave,
you mentioned your 150g of protein a day - would you be interested in doing a post on your typical meals / eating schedule in a given day, or do you have something already similar you could point me to ?
I don't think i usually get enough protein in general, sometimes i do, but seeing how you get to those numbers would be insightful.
thanks for these nutrition vids, they are excellent.
also, thank you for the make or break book - i've had a my first a2 injury at the end of my first year of climbing and i'm using make or break as a guide into the rehab process.
Really appreciate your approach, very careful with your use of words and research
Thank you dave! Another super video. It might sound a bit odd but DMT really helped me with my climbing
Hi Dave, thanks for the detailed breakdown. Have you ever looked at BPC-157. Seems potentially helpful for tendon growth but maybe still too limited in terms of studies at this point.
@@sahntahdemon Do you have to inject it?
Just to get this clear: You're considering to be injected with or ingest a substance that is illegal in most of the Western world to make something happen that your body should be capable of naturally and that millions upon millions of athletic bodies are doing successfully without any supplemental assistance?
Thank you for this video Dave. I am definitely curious to hear a breakdown of Athletic Greens; I began taking it about a month ago and want to know more about its efficacy
Most people dont need vitamin or mineral Supplements (especially not a couple of 100s % of the daily need) as they get enough in their diet. Taking high doses (like ag1) for a Long time might Even be harmful (i think it was an increased cancer Risk). Dont believe paid climbing Channels, Even if they claim their content is evidence Based. They are paid to do funny conmercials, they Even delete critical comments. Just Google reviews about Vitamin Supplements and you get plenty of information. Look for papers and Not reviews by influencers. If they Review it, check that they Talk about the effect of these super high doses.
Would love a video on any suplements you do take as well as the ones you think are not worth taking.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video. Your explanation of a complex topic was exceptionally well-structured and detailed. I look forward to watching more videos like this from you.
Very nice video! Maybe a discussion on creatine supplementation could be interesting? It is quite common among climbers and, from what I see, also in other sports (powerlifting, cycling). As always, thanks for the great content!
Tendons have poor blood supply. Shame as blood is what brings the good stuff and takes the bad stuff - for recovery. I concentrate on getting blood to the area. Repeated heat (and even contrast bathing) and massage to get the blood in and blood out. Seems to work for me and my old body- haven’t died or anything yet.
This.
More on suppliments and diet please, ur vids are amazing source of info!
Dave, excellent video (per normal), and I think more videos detailing supplements would be welcomed. Some supplements to consider would be Protein and Creatine. Thank you for your research and clear communication. Your efforts are very much appreciated
Very interesting! More videos like this please.
I'd appreciate more discussion of planetary health when it comes to diet and nutrition. Thanks for all you do.
Yes. I have been collating research for a long video or series on this for the last 4 years.
I would love to see your video on AG1!
This is really informative and I think this series would be really interesting and fun to watch
Thanks Dave. That was very informative. 👍🏻👏🏼
Thanks Dave! Super interested and love your channel. Keep up these style of videos - I love it.
gave me a lot to think about. Thanks! Really nice Content and nice Books. Keep on doing these things Dave!
Great information, been trying HCP for a while, leucine and a vitamin C added, and not felt any difference so discontinued.
Michael Yessis, involved in disseminating Soviet research into English, said literature in these studies suggest 1x20 reps does most for cappilirisation of soft tissue, this I have used for years.
Thanks for the breakdown. I took collagen for a few months but over the last year or so I've just taken plenty of whey protein + 5g creatine daily and I'm happy to hear you're aligned with that strategy.
Well kind of. I prefer steak and eggs.
@@climbermacleodAbsolutely. My connective tissue is bombproof on carnivore.
@@climbermacleod Totally fair, not saying you're doing it too, but you mention that creatine is backed by better research than collagen + the importance of getting enough protein, so I took it as an endorsement :) I opt for nutrient-dense whole foods when I can but struggle to hit my macro goals without supplementation, so I figure supplementation is better than undershooting my nutrient requirements.
Thank you for this Dave. Really helpful. I've been taking collagen for about 6 months and honestly feel like it doesn't do anything. Probably because I make a conscious effort to maintain a wholesome diet. I will probably start protein and creatine supplementation. Maybe just creatine.
Would be very interested in your thoughts on AG1 and other powdered products.
P.S. can also confirm that vitamin D supplementation has real benefits from first hand experience.
As a woman currently in peri-menopause I see a lot of literature saying that collagen production is dropping rapidly from this point in our lives. So would it still be accurate to believe my body will continue to produce enough for my needs if I consume enough protein? I'm not keen on taking supplements, so I try to add it to my diet through things like bone broths and I buy Chief collagen bars, because they're the only brand I've found that tries to avoid adding extra crap.
By the way, it's been great to find your channel. I've been listening to your videos like podcasts as my car radio has about given up the ghost. I appreciate the nutrition side and connecting it to climbing.
you are incredible, thank you for your straightforward thoughts and findings
Great video Dave! As a scientist (all be it in a different field) I appreciate that these studies are quite hard to perform with many confounding factors. Having said that I'm not massively convinced by the way they presented the data in ref 11 fig 1. Looks more like P hacking than an honest presentation since they offer no real justification for reporting the CSA at 60% and 70% tendon length. I think the bigger takeaway from that paper is, as you say later, a 14-week resistance training program is good for tendons!
Agreed. So many studies yet such a poverty of any decent ones.
@@climbermacleod I think another thing to consider would be the effect on trained vs untrained athletes. I can't remember the studies exactly, but I was under the impression that supplementation (e.g. whey) had a greater effect on untrained people when they started training vs an athlete who trains regularly. I imagine the response of finger tendons to training of a reasonably good climber with good nutrition vs an untrained volunteer will further confound any conclusions.
Very interesting idea for a video. Definitely would love more
What is your take on the Omega 3 fish oil? This is something we don't get enough through "standard" diet. It allegedly has a significant impact on mental health and brain function, etc.
This is the only supplement I take and I do feel difference, although placebo is a powerful thing!
What supplements do you take and how do you tailor your supplements to your diet?
How does this relate to your thoughts relating to bone broth? I understand not wanting to waste money on supplements but for instance chicken backs are usually a buck or two a lb here in the states, and it seems these types of foods have been common and preserved in more native diets (native Americans through mexico, various brothy soups in Asian countries etc). There’s lots of stories within the western price circles of natives eating marrow raw, cooking all the leftovers into soup etc. Seems like beyond the idea that supplementing collagen may be detrimental that consuming gelatinous portions has been a large aspect of more traditional eating
Yes bone broth is good nutritious food. If you like it, go for it. As you say you can make it very cheaply as well.
Thanks a lot for another insightful video and food for thought. It would be interesting to see if a group of climbers with a collagen rich diet would show better tendon health compared to a group that eats mainly lean meat or maybe even follows a vegetarian diet. I live in Korea and a lot of dishes consist of fatty meat like for example pork belly (including ther skin) or chicken feet. I did feel bad about the high amount of fat because of the calories involved, but now it seems that this might not be as bad, as it could come with a potentially beneficial collagen boost for my tendons for free.
Another fantastic video!
This was great, more please!
I'd be careful Dave, Eric Horst is going to send his boys after you for this.
Would much appreciate more nutrition/diet videos! I haven't consistently made efforts to improve my climbing since I was about 8, but information like this is very helpful for my resistance training and general health journeys.
One that I haven't been able to disentangle: is there, or is there not, a relationship between dietary and bloodstream cholesterol? And the whole .*saturated fat debate too...there's so much on all sides, and I haven't the will to dig through the literature they cite.
Unless your cholesterol is very low it appears to make little to no difference. Blood lipids are primarily a reflection of metabolic state.
Very interesting video as always Dave.
Brilliant video and so well presented! Thanks for making all this info 'digestible' 🤣
Thanks Dave! Actually for me the most useful thought was about relying on supplements and missing some other nutrients. Concerning collagen, I'd also consider people's gastrointestinal conditions like low stomach acidity or some other issues which could make peptides absorption easier for them then digesting real meat. And I'd be grateful for a video on creatine supplementation!
Thank you Dave!
I am interested in a closer look on creatine and whey isolate.
Great video dave
As others have mentioned, a video on creatine would be great!
So good to see an objective take on collagen backed up with real research and facts.
I'd love to see a video on Stem cell therapy for joint/ligament/tendon repair!
I'm keen to hear your take on Creatine - the only supplement I take. I also tried a cheaper version of Athletic Greens - it was truly revolting and whatever benefit I had was probably down to the extra glass of water of a morning; but maybe I didn't give it time.... Would be great to see your take on that too.
Just eat the membranes from eggs with your eggs. Simply keep the shell intact, then roll the membrane up like a sleeping bag against the shell to remove the membrane. Anecdotally I've notices a huge difference in my skin and ligaments since I've started supplementing. Like my skin is entirely different and more elastic, stronger.. I now have dead skin remain intact to the point where I have to exfoliate..I haven't had this happen since I was a child.
Much respect to you Dave. Great channel and very informative content. A study is study of how a thing affects OTHER PEOPLE, NOT how it affects you. Try a collagen supplement for 30-90 days. See if there are positive results for you. I discovered collagen does not benefit me after 60 days at double the "recommended" dose of 10g per day. I went up to 20g per day and my nails, skin, and hair remained unchanged in their "quality". A close friend and his girlfriend see remarkable results after 30 days at 10g a day. Now, a silica supplement like one by a German company DOES provide positive results on my nails, hair, and skin. Try and see.
Another great video. I really appreciate your scientific rigor and commitment to transparency. Is there a dietary difference between supplementing you’re normal nutrition with animal or vegetable based protein?
Thanks. Yes, with the plant proteins you just need to take care to blend some different sources since some of them have lower amounts of certain aminos.
Thanks for the subtle mention of your new book! I will definitely be picking up a copy, by chance will you be releasing a hard cover version? I would much rather own that than the paperback.
Not new
What are your thoughts on bacopa, ashwangha, rhodiola? do a video on adaptogens
Really interesting as always Dave, would love to hear your thoughts on creatine, it being one of the most common and, in climbing over the years, controversial
I think it would be really helpful if you did a video on what you can do if you are not able to eat red meat. You are a really big advocate for its consumption but due to a tick bite I have developed an allergy to red meat and was wondering what you think good alternatives might be.
Thanks for this Dave! I'm curious to hear your thoughts on creatine.
Recent studies are showing a substantial portion of collagen supplements on the market are high in heavy metals. Make bone broth people, huge benefits.
Dave, a detailed look at creatine would be helpful. My personal experience with it recently has been positive but there have been a few significant drawbacks
Me smoking half a pack a day: interesting
Damn I started supplementing collagen in early August. Looking forward to hearing your take on it! I wonder if age factors in? Im almost 60 and im told us old farts dont produce as much collagen. Also other than collagen im a plant based athlete. I could listen to you all day bud! Definitely strength training is magic!
Would love you to make a 5 minute version of this for general consumption... Most people will not have the patience!
Most people do have the patience, but you can just use the chapter markers or see the short version here ruclips.net/user/shorts114EDZcKCk0?feature=share
Ah the short is great, nice one
Interesting stuff, I've been taking 10g of collagen a day. Its never easy to know how much of an influence one particular supplement can make in the grand scheme of a good diet along with everything else but one thing my wife did notice is that my thinning hair on top has grown back a little and I do feel my skin also feels healthier and less dry which is enough to make me think its doing some good.
there are multiple people claiming it does help. but it seems there is always someone that claims about something that it doesn't work due to "not enough scientific evidence". remember the amazing scientists that in one study they claim one thing and in another they claim the exact opposite... and then everyone is an expert on the topic and select whatever they believe or whatever fits their agenda based on these studies
Ha! I was just speaking with staff at my local health food store about this recently and said, "They've come up with a clever way of re-marketing cheap left-over bits from the cattle industry into something far more profitable, without significant expense to themselves". That said, I do buy unflavoured collagen because it's the best form of protein powder for my smoothies.
Would love to hear your take on all the bigger supplements usually used by climbers/strength trainers.
Do you get any "supplements" from your doctor that help you with climbing? If so, what supplements would you advise for enhanced climbing?
Not being able to distinguish simply increased protein intake from collagen specifically is a good point. But the 15 week study showing no effects of collagen didn't co-supplement with vitamin C? Reference 15 did not include vitamin C either. Further my understanding is that the most beneficial effects are also seen when collagen is supplemented before exercise thus the plasma is enriched when connective tissue has substantially increased blood flow.
I agree more research is needed but I think when studies have both of these things the effects of collagen look more positive.
i had my foot amputated but after taking athletic greens it grew back
I guess that's why they call them adaptogens.
Would be very interested to hear your thoughts on optimising hydration and its benefits on climbing, training and recovery performance!
Dave, I'm really curious about your thoughts on Huel (Black - low carb), marketed as a 'nutritionally complete food'.
Compared to AG-1 (which I think is marketed using similar language), Huel seems to contain appropriate levels of protein (40g pea/rice), Iron (70% NRV), vitamin D (80% NRV) and fatty acids (around 5g each for Omega-3 and Omega-6) per dose.
I use it to supplement a diet mainly consisting of otherwise unprocessed foods and animal protein, plus creatine. Been using it for years and I think it works well for my lifestyle. This is reason enough for my own personal justification but I am keen to hear your take.
Your recent guest appearance on Climbing Stuff was good craic!
Absolute G!