When there is a chance that the climber unclips the belay i ask him/her to clip the belayer strand to the penultimate quickdraw. That way even in case of unclipping the belay there would just be a safe fall. May be overkill but murphy never rests in climbing. Superb videos. Congratulations.
There was an accident where a polish climber dropped 30m from the anchor while top-roping (fortunately she survived and is now all good and back to climbing). She was an experienced climber with years of climbing under her belt, she top-roped unclipping the quickdraws and she messed up cleaning the anchor. Has she clipped that last quickdraw, this wouldn't have happend. That's why I always ask people to do that if they are going to clean the anchor.
I'd like to add one general rule for the communication: Use each other's names on your commands! It's really helpful on crowded walls to know who actually is addressed by a command. E.g. is it for you or the belayer next to you.
"Don't try to guess what's in the mind of your climber" So important. Just listen and do as your climbing asks. Also when your climber asks for a take, that's a great time to rest your neck (from looking up). But that also means when they are ready to climb again, when they pull on to the route, you might fall on your butt as a belayer if you weren't watching them or they didn't say "climbing" before they got off the rope.
With enough experience almost any time the climber is on top rope is a good moment to rest your neck :D But I'll actually make a video on saving your neck :D
7:20 Couldn't agree more ! I always climb with a bowline knot and I always ask my partners if they are ok with that ! Some of them prefer that I use a figure of eight and I fully understand their "fear". Great video, thanks a lot !
Hi! You make really nice videos - I recommend your chanel to all climbers I meet. 😊 Two things regarding this video: - during the safety check, check for a stop knot on the end of the rope (should be the same habit as in lead climbing). - Handle the weight difference during the safety check, to light belayer vs heavy climber can lead up to unnecessary risks. Again - keep up the good work! Really really like your videos ❤️😊
As for the first point: I always do this just because I think it's a good idea to always have a stopper knot and remove one point of consideration. Don't want to have a brain fart moment and skip the knot on a lead route. That said, I've never seen a practical reason for a stopper knot when top roping with the belayer on the ground. Since the rope is long enough to reach the anchor and all the way back down, the climber would always deck well before the stopper knot could come into play. Am I missing some real reason for it?
@@LH_Vagrant I climbed a route recently where the rope was just slightly too short and the climber could easily reach a ledge a couple of meters higher and tie in there. The rope stretch turned out to be enough to reach the ground afterwards (as it was for the lead climber), but it was good to have a knot as backup.
In Germany we have the "German Alpine Association" with well over 1 million members. He doesn't manage to convey knowledge and techniques as well as you and my English sucks. So all the more impressive how you convey that to foreign speakers Mucho grande love for you ❤
An accident that happened in my gym was with the click-up. The belay device was in the wrong direction (it is almost symmetrical) and when the climber fell, the device didn't really have a lot of grip. The belayer was able to slow down the fall just by pulling on the dead rope very hard, but burned himself and the climber fell on him. No one got injured, just a little scratch from belaying glasses. However, this really reminds that it is fundamental not to lower your attention levels even when you are in a safe environment such as an indoor gym.
One thing i like to teach new belayers. When lowering, if you are moving around, or rope gets stuck or something is happening... ALLWAYS let go of the handle first before doing anything. (for instance at 13:25 i would tell he to let go of handle, walk beneath the anchor, then continue lowering)
Great vid Ben - but I must say your system check is not complete without checking there is a knot in the tail. Even for top roping… Imagine going up on top rope, deciding you want to climb the route next door - clip those anchors - go back and unclip your old route - this new route may be higher (or ground lower) than your previous route. Rope might now be too short. I think it’s worth ALWAYS checking your tail knot even when top roping. You have to do it for lead - might as well do it for TR and make your system check the same/similar as possible.
You should also check that climber's pockets are empty or loose things in the harness. It is not nice to get hit by a phone. Forgot to mention, great video, I love this channel!
Ah! That prethreaded method of letting a less experienced climber clean is great, I love it. Minimal wear to the gear, easy to understand. I'll definitely incorporate that with my friends who are less technically proficient.
Thanks for demonstrating the "climbing" command well in this, both from the ground and after a take or fall. This is not an immediate follow up to "belaying" when still on the ground, nor is this only used from the ground but when under your own power on the wall.
Two questions/comments from someone who’s relatively new to this: 1. Regarding belay commands - at busy crags I’ve found it’s helpful to use each others’ names at the the end of each communication. Especially at the anchors where you may not be able to see your partner. 2. Regarding the pre-clean setup - isn’t it best practice to go “in direct” with a personal anchor system before cleaning? It seems like adding that step to the pre-clean setup would only have a small hit in efficiency for a huge increase in redundancy. Just some thoughts. Thanks for the excellent productions!
Yeees, this is exactly where I was hoping this series was going when it first started up. Much appreciated! Very much looking forward to the lead belaying part especially!
I did my first rock climbing session last week (after having seen most of your material), and it's like you were there!!! All the little (and not so little) mistakes I saw experienced climbers making, and all of your advice on checking and double checking... So my question to you (in case you want to address it in future videos): How would you go about telling a more experienced climber that he is belaying dangerously if you spot it, without sounding like a know-it-all (if you have very limited experience)? Thanks a lot and keep up the great work!!!
Probably gain some experience first. While there are experienced climbers who do mistakes, they might also just be belaying a bit more loosely because it makes sense in that situation. I don't want to say don't say anything, but probably get some sessions in and you probably won't have a fun time explaining it anyway 🙃
i was in the same situation like you. my approach: maybe you could not correct them but ask, why they do it? like: "since i am new to climbing, i want to learn a lot. can i ask you, why you belay like this? i learnt, that..." so you create more a conversation about safety than making them feel criticised. and dont ask them while belaying, but afterwards in a relaxed situation.
I like what @eliseschwarte7252 suggested. But personally, I interrupt only if I see critical issues that can result into big troubles, or I know them personally and can do a friendly approach. Otherwise it's just ego vs ego - pointless.
Nice introduction/summary of climbing (again). Just a few extra comments climbing: 1. For top rope climbing ALWAYS use your own carabiner when you climb outside. The constant rope dragging is damaging the carabiner, which is relatively hard to change (and also dangerous if somebody using damaged anchor). 2. Check the falling direction of climber. As you mentioned the human balling can happen and the climber also can hit you or somebody else which has serious consequences. It happened with my partner how hit somebody and caused concussion. 3. Always use that belay device which you well know. I saw people to hit ground with gri gri during lowering. But anyway. It is a nice, one of the best introduction video. Stay safe, climb hard :)
For the partner check I like to pull the rope tight a bit from the belayer side and have the climber pull the rope. This way you can be 100% sure you are in the same rope, even if you cannot see the anchor, and the knot is easy to check because it is pulled up a bit.
As an ex-skydiver and a long time climber I'm a huge fan of a job well done with nothing left to chance when it comes to situations where errors might mean your life (or someone else's). I'm about to get back to outside climbing and your video series is an amazing refresher on those topics. I'll even gladly admit they have actually taught me a few thing I did not already know. I'll definitely make whatching those a requirement for people I climb with ! Cheers !
I do the preclean setup for my friends. After a near miss with somebody failing to do the setup correctly, I always make sure the climber connects with a sling to the anchor before letting the tension go to remove the draw. Also recommend "buller proof" carabineers for that
Is getting used to taking rope while the climber falls really worth it? It's such a small window during which this can actually be done, while it seems like you increase the risk of the climber falling farther by putting the break side of the rope into a position that makes belay devices less likely to lock (based on tests in a previous video of yours). It feels like always pulling the break side of the rope down during/before a fall is the better drill because it reduces the likelihood of human failure.
Exactly what I was about to comment. If someone is THAT close to the ground I'd like to have as little slack as possible, so that I do not need to take rope while the climber falls, with the chance that the load on the rope is maximum while I'm basically un-locking the gri-gri. Instead of taking rope, moving away from below the anchor point or bending your knees is also a way to tighten the rope without having to take rope.
I think this is only for the circumstance when you're on a top rope and the climber is very close to the ground already because any slack they have will be added to the distance the rope will stretch (and also will cause the rope to stretch more because they will go faster before they start stretching it)?
@@insylogo I get what you're saying, but that's still a helluva lot to calculate in a fraction of a second. How much will the rope stretch? Is he too close to the ground? How quickly can I take slack? Will my hand on the break side of the rope be compromised if I get pulled by the falling climber while taking slack? Just a lot of stuff to think about in very little time for what? How much slack are you realistically gonna be able to take in that amount of time?
I just sit on my heels and then the climbers weight takes me upwards; unless the climber shouts falling before they go it’s an incredibly fast process particularly if there is not a lot of rope in the system. I have only taken a few unexpected falls in 12 years, usually hold snaps off or foot slips on tenuous terrain.
Thank you so much for the video. There are not many toprope videos and either they are only 2-3 minutes or just show the climbing. I would really have needed this video a couple years ago. We had to find out by ourselves when to leave the quickraws in and when not. Besides that, I see in the gym sometimes really scary toprope situations, we need definitely more toprope videos.
can't wait for video about scetchy belays - our local crag is full of short routes where you're afraid of hitting the deck for the most part of a climb
First, all these compliments are deserved, I value your content! I was bummed though to see you not back up your brake hand before bumping it up / have a loose brake hand at times… which I wouldn’t want to see using an ATC or lead belaying with a GRIGRI (for consistency of best practice / good habit across these popular devices). I understand the pressure and scrutiny, and in no way want to be a negative light. I am a full time adult instructor/coach and administer lead tests, and i know a lot of newer climbers are going to copy you.
very sad that your "system check" is not shown as two way. ie the climber starts by checking the tie in, through the rope path to the stopper (or equiv) to close the system. (to include the belayer demonstrating the belay device locking if active) {Risk Reduction by each part of the system being checked by 2 people} "System Check" can still be a "buddy check". Encouragement to Develop Good Habits Indoors and Take Them Outside is great! so many great and subtle details well covered in your video; please keep putting out masterful content! :-j
First of all, thanks for the videos! When I'm climbing in top rope on the rope which goes through the quickdraws, I usually try to put the last quickdraw in my belayer's rope. Then, if the anchor fails, the quickdraw will save me. Of course, some times isn't worth it to do the change.
So glad to see another episode added to that series. Also thanks for the sneak peek! I as a beginner thought I got toprope checked, but found a lot of useful tips! Never considered prestretching the rope. Also sitting down when taking never occured to me. I always did the jumping take, which can't (or shouldn't?) be done on a fall. So I'll start sitting down! Thanks! One thing I missed in this video was different toprope scenarios. We so far only climb easier routes that are not overhanging, mostly even slightly inclining with some ledges. So standing below the anchor is impossible and rope management becomes quite tricky sometimes. Where to put your hands as the climber when the toprope kinda wants to be behind you, but cannot really. Or how (and if?) the belayer should try to move the rope actively out of heads way the closer the climber comes to the top. Can't wait to see your take on lead belaying and hope you take extra time on how to handle weight differences.
No expert, but I think you do the jumping take if: - there is not so much rope between you and the climber - and there is no way they will hit the floor - and you want to soften the fall, either because the gear is not 100% solid (friends, quickdraws) or you think the climber will hit the wall hard if you stop them too fast
@@daasdingo Sorry for the confusion: by the "jumping take" I dont mean dynamic belaying/catching. I mean when you jump WHILE you unlock the device to take in slack; jumping up takes in a huge amount of slack. Doing the same by sitting down is just better in more situations than not.
If you're belying in Top Rope situation moving backwards (you call it jumping) won't do much due to the angle of the rope going up. So if you want to take hard you need to actively take and sit down in the harness. Stepping back to take slack quick comes in handy in lead belaying when the rope goes to the first quickdraw not high up to the anchor.
Thank you for the lesson. I haven't top roped outside. Only gym, so this was helpful to see how it's different. Looking forward to the lead climbing video. Just recently passed that test for indoor.
Regarding the communication as they start climbing, i prefer that it is the belayer who says 'climb when ready' first, then the climber says 'climbing' when leaving the ground. That was it belayer is always ready beforehand
Here in the US we use a two part confirmation command system. It goes: “On Belay?” “Belay is on!” “Ready to climb?” “Climb away!” It helps to solve the system check problem you mention.
Most folks use this as the same check, but this isn't meant to be a two part check. The second set of commands is meant to indicate to the belayer that they are actively under their own power, exactly in show on the video where the climber asked to take then was appearing to climb but was not under their own power until they said "climbing". The number of people just rote saying that string of commands is high, and the checks are meant to be separate from the commands which are separate themselves.
@@zacharylaschober I think you misunderstand me: the “On Belay?” Command is meant to make sure the belayer is paying attention and ask the belayer if the system is functioning as expected. It most certainly is meant to be a separate set of actions to the next commands. This catches the exact situation mentioned when the rope wasn’t attached to the climber, or any other situation similar. As the belayer begins to take in slack on the system, the belayer will notice that the rope attached to the climber isn’t moving. At that point the belayer can call for a stop. The, “climbing?” “climb away!” Command check is the same as instructed in this video. This is how I was taught. It was made clear to me, when I was trained to belay for work that this back and forth is very important, because the belayer and climber are not always the people who set up the system, and they both might not be able to see the whole system. Considering that this video is meant to be a primmer for new climbers, it seems important to mention here, considering that it will be very likely that the audience won’t set up the system. Petzl includes these commands in their instructional videos and booklets after all.
every time you post a video makes me si happy i know is the best info i can get and ill learn a lot, i just wish they were a bit more consistent because by the time i mastered the last video and i need to learn more i still have ti wait quite a while, but anyways no pressure keep this amazing good vibes up!
One technical tip as the belayer which took me some time to find out: Actually pulling in rope with the non-brakehand while taking in slack by just placing the non brakehand up high and holding the rope tight. Any slack gets automatically taken in by your arms weight. This doesn't work that well with friction in the system for instance when the rope runs over some big ledges (seems to be more common in our area 😅) - Do you have any practical tips on how to judge how much support the climber experiences? I sometimes get situations where my girlfriend feels less secure because the rope gets looser on her end, while I feel a fair amount of pull. We would also love to see some tips on lowering for 20+ kg ligther belayers. Is there some kind of position that makes it more comfortable and maybe even more control?
with regards to the "how much support" question as well as the friction element, simply use the guide hand to keep the climber rope taut until enough slack is present that they've made a couple moves upward and then pull through the device. Your partner may feel safer with a tight belay, but this is a bit of an illusion because the difference is often a foot of slack. Don't argue with her on the wall, but do ask she not keep you as tight and explain why, and as long as she is comfortable with then reduce how taut you keep the rope for her unless she specifically asks for a section to be kept tight. This tension in the rope throws off balance of the climber and can assist, but breaking this habit and feeling comfortable with requires gradual and comfortable exposure. When transitioning towards lead climbing this will become a bigger detriment since the rope will restrict movement and too little slack will cause a harder catch. Many climbers with the overt appearance of safety will keep the rope tight on lead, often drawing in all the slack the moment a clip is made and shorting every clip and giving hard catches. On multipitch routes when belaying a second this intent to keep the rope taut is even worse since giving out any slack when a climber reverses a movement is difficult in most guide autoblock modes, and you have more leverage to pull them off balance and up the wall.
For lowering heavier climbers as I already mentioned standing directly under the anchor helps a lot, also lowering slower and at consistent pace is gonna lift the belayer up less. For the feeling of the tension - you'll learn with experience, and yes in some high friction situations you need to watch the climber more and adjust. If she's scared then she needs to take some falls: I recommend this old video of mine: ruclips.net/video/ZMIObBZvNh4/видео.html
@@HardIsEasy thanks Ben! we'll work on fear of falling in the gym season; our hometown rock is quite short and due to lots of ledges really not a safe spot to fall a lot. We obviously already saw your FOF series and kinda miss HannaBanana in your latest videos 😁😁
Call your belayer-climber by his/her name! When a crag is really crowded it's very easy to hear someone else talking to the climbing partner and think it 's yours.
I also like to do a functionality test of the setup before climbing: just taking all the stretch in and sitting in the system while the climbers is still on the ground
I think one very important thing in the partner check is to check the rope/carabiner goes through the correct loop on the harness! People clip them to gear loops etc.
Never seen anyone clipping that to gear loop, that would mean that something is completely doing something wrong, but partner check should obviously notice that.
Hi there, I have the habit, when climbing top rope uncliping, clip myself(or make the climber clip) the last quickdraw before the anchor on the belayer side of the rope, that way if it ever happens that the anchor is uncliped for whatever reason, there is still one point
I once toproped on a short route that was much harder than my usual grade. Used a Clipstick to clip the top.. climbed nicely just to arrive at the top to see that i was belayed on an open maillon.. damn..
Is the belaying technique shown in yhis video optimal? Do we have a video on this channel that compares always keeping one firm hand on the brake rope to the technique shown in this video where you slide your hand up the rope with your other hand up on the climber side if the rope? I was always taught that was unsafe, and that you should grab the rope below your brake hand to slide up your brake hand.
Ben is using a GriGri, so different technique than for a normal belay plate. "Tunnelling" is okay for top rope with a GriGri, not optimal, but okay. It's pretty much a necessity when lead belaying. Certainly I teach (and use) V-knee-1-2-3. But then move to tunnelling when using my Edelrid Jul2 when belaying lead. Certainly, you should never completely let go, under any circumstance I can think of. Tunnelling is broadly fine, as you can very quickly grip again if your partner falls.
Yes, tunnel-method and PBUS have been covered here: "Complete Guide into Belay Devices - Differences and Efficient Usage | Ep.6" ruclips.net/video/qx3x5MMqGUg/видео.html And tested here (with an ATC): ruclips.net/video/03ext7Dahxo/видео.html
One quick tip as well: Don't hold onto the carabiners when detatching or attatching from quickdraws, I have heard painful stories of people falling while holding onto the crabiner and the hook of the carabiner going through their hand. Just hold onto the quickdraw itself or the rock.
re: unfamiliar knots - I like to weight the belay device on the ground, so that you're sure that you're on the same rope and the knot is at least good for body weight, and that the belay device engages.
Maybe someone tells this on the previous 181 commets: I always tell my top rope climber to clip "my rope side" on the last clip before the anchor. With this we are safe if he/she makes something uncommon on the anchor, like putting out the rope from the anchor clips or the carabiner.
What is wrong with the buddy check? The only thing I can think of is the question of who is responsible for checking that you are on the same rope. But I was tought to include that in the buddy check. Are there any other down sides?
Ben great video so glad you make these! One question/concern: sliding the brake hand up the rope toward the belay device like that is an automatic fail at most climbing gyms. I'd love to know your thoughts on that? Is it not really a risk?
some gyms are ridiculously pedantic about a method for all aspects of climbing, whether this be orientation of knots or structure of commands or belay method itself, and often this ventures from safety into pedantry. Releasing and regrabbing the brake strand is not appropriate, but the tunnel method is a standard for many people and is incredibly efficient for taking in a small amount of slack at a time as well as being a primary method for climbers missing an arm. Make sure the brake hand is never opened, hence the "tunnel", to where the rope could leave the hand, and should never have a problem. However, while safe there are insurance concerns and ease of safety checks. With the tunnel, novices and the complacent can easily release and regrab or otherwise open the grip enough to allow loss of control of the rope, and this is harder to see. This is why most gyms force a figure 8 follow through: everyone has the same knot which is recognizable at a glance. Back to the pedantry of gyms, I won't argue if the gym wants a stopper knot nor a backup for the tail, but have failed a lead test because I was not using an exaggerated PBUS method every time my climber clipped to bring in all the slack which is more dangerous because I am out of belay position and causes a harder catch for no safety value. Not a mention of needing this method nor quick indication that my method was competent but the gym enforced this one and I needed to demonstrate, just a mention of failing because I did not and suggesting I take the class. I left after getting a day pass refund cause was needless rules to be able to overcharge.
hope you'll cover how to handle pendulum falls in your lead belaying videos - I'm not scared of falling per se, I'm scared of hitting the rock in a wrong way. Very hard to find info on this - most demos are recorded on comfortable overhangs only..
Well, you can’t do much to prevent the swing when you are to the side or front of a quick draw. And usually they are surprisingly harmless. One time I hit my head and back after swinging several meters (was cleaning a route and the lowest quick draw was quite far to the side and there was a wall in the opposite direction), that was painful and certainly a reminder to wear a helmet.
I'll, but in general soft catch is recommended for pendulums, makes swing much less intense. If someone takes hard the swing to the side will be crazy.
I get seriously excited whenever you post because I know I can expect a well researched and also brilliantly edited video. Thanks!
This series is genuinely the best climbing instruction guide on the internet. Top-notch researching and excellent content!
it truly is, thank you for adding this to the community!
Really like your idea of a “System check” rather than a buddy check. Makes so much more sense!
When there is a chance that the climber unclips the belay i ask him/her to clip the belayer strand to the penultimate quickdraw. That way even in case of unclipping the belay there would just be a safe fall. May be overkill but murphy never rests in climbing.
Superb videos. Congratulations.
There was an accident where a polish climber dropped 30m from the anchor while top-roping (fortunately she survived and is now all good and back to climbing). She was an experienced climber with years of climbing under her belt, she top-roped unclipping the quickdraws and she messed up cleaning the anchor. Has she clipped that last quickdraw, this wouldn't have happend. That's why I always ask people to do that if they are going to clean the anchor.
I'd like to add one general rule for the communication: Use each other's names on your commands!
It's really helpful on crowded walls to know who actually is addressed by a command. E.g. is it for you or the belayer next to you.
"Don't try to guess what's in the mind of your climber" So important. Just listen and do as your climbing asks. Also when your climber asks for a take, that's a great time to rest your neck (from looking up). But that also means when they are ready to climb again, when they pull on to the route, you might fall on your butt as a belayer if you weren't watching them or they didn't say "climbing" before they got off the rope.
With enough experience almost any time the climber is on top rope is a good moment to rest your neck :D But I'll actually make a video on saving your neck :D
7:20 Couldn't agree more ! I always climb with a bowline knot and I always ask my partners if they are ok with that ! Some of them prefer that I use a figure of eight and I fully understand their "fear". Great video, thanks a lot !
Hi! You make really nice videos - I recommend your chanel to all climbers I meet. 😊
Two things regarding this video:
- during the safety check, check for a stop knot on the end of the rope (should be the same habit as in lead climbing).
- Handle the weight difference during the safety check, to light belayer vs heavy climber can lead up to unnecessary risks.
Again - keep up the good work! Really really like your videos ❤️😊
As for the first point: I always do this just because I think it's a good idea to always have a stopper knot and remove one point of consideration. Don't want to have a brain fart moment and skip the knot on a lead route. That said, I've never seen a practical reason for a stopper knot when top roping with the belayer on the ground. Since the rope is long enough to reach the anchor and all the way back down, the climber would always deck well before the stopper knot could come into play. Am I missing some real reason for it?
@@LH_Vagrant the reason you gave is the actual reason. If you always do something, it is less likely that you forget it when you need it.
@@chaosengine4597 yeah fair enough then. It's more than good enough of a reason. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't unaware of anything important.
@@LH_Vagrant I climbed a route recently where the rope was just slightly too short and the climber could easily reach a ledge a couple of meters higher and tie in there. The rope stretch turned out to be enough to reach the ground afterwards (as it was for the lead climber), but it was good to have a knot as backup.
Hands downs, favorite climbing content
Oh man, I was thinking "Haven't I seen all of these?" but then I saw '4 min ago'. Hype for new content!
In Germany we have the "German Alpine Association" with well over 1 million members. He doesn't manage to convey knowledge and techniques as well as you and my English sucks. So all the more impressive how you convey that to foreign speakers
Mucho grande love for you ❤
An accident that happened in my gym was with the click-up. The belay device was in the wrong direction (it is almost symmetrical) and when the climber fell, the device didn't really have a lot of grip. The belayer was able to slow down the fall just by pulling on the dead rope very hard, but burned himself and the climber fell on him. No one got injured, just a little scratch from belaying glasses. However, this really reminds that it is fundamental not to lower your attention levels even when you are in a safe environment such as an indoor gym.
I wish the instructors were this detailed with their instructions. I want to make sure I’m being safe with the right practices
Really enjoy learning about rock climbing. As an off-road enthusiast I often see rock climbers when the weather is nice. Thank you for sharing.
One thing i like to teach new belayers. When lowering, if you are moving around, or rope gets stuck or something is happening... ALLWAYS let go of the handle first before doing anything.
(for instance at 13:25 i would tell he to let go of handle, walk beneath the anchor, then continue lowering)
Thank you for your continued effort, and the quality in these videos
Hey thank you so much Robert!
One thing you could probably add to your system check is a knot behind your belay device.
Not critical for top Rope, but I'll add that for lead belay for sure
Yes, needed!! Important habit to build early!
Great vid Ben - but I must say your system check is not complete without checking there is a knot in the tail. Even for top roping… Imagine going up on top rope, deciding you want to climb the route next door - clip those anchors - go back and unclip your old route - this new route may be higher (or ground lower) than your previous route. Rope might now be too short. I think it’s worth ALWAYS checking your tail knot even when top roping. You have to do it for lead - might as well do it for TR and make your system check the same/similar as possible.
Yea knot is good idea, but I don't imagine someone doing something on top rope jumping between routes... =]
You should also check that climber's pockets are empty or loose things in the harness. It is not nice to get hit by a phone. Forgot to mention, great video, I love this channel!
Ah! That prethreaded method of letting a less experienced climber clean is great, I love it. Minimal wear to the gear, easy to understand. I'll definitely incorporate that with my friends who are less technically proficient.
so happy that your belay masterclass is back! Thanks Ben!
Really good, thank you, definitely plenty here for experienced climbers/belayers to be aware of when supporting beginners
Thanks for demonstrating the "climbing" command well in this, both from the ground and after a take or fall. This is not an immediate follow up to "belaying" when still on the ground, nor is this only used from the ground but when under your own power on the wall.
Two questions/comments from someone who’s relatively new to this:
1. Regarding belay commands - at busy crags I’ve found it’s helpful to use each others’ names at the the end of each communication. Especially at the anchors where you may not be able to see your partner.
2. Regarding the pre-clean setup - isn’t it best practice to go “in direct” with a personal anchor system before cleaning? It seems like adding that step to the pre-clean setup would only have a small hit in efficiency for a huge increase in redundancy.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for the excellent productions!
Yeees, this is exactly where I was hoping this series was going when it first started up. Much appreciated!
Very much looking forward to the lead belaying part especially!
I did my first rock climbing session last week (after having seen most of your material), and it's like you were there!!! All the little (and not so little) mistakes I saw experienced climbers making, and all of your advice on checking and double checking... So my question to you (in case you want to address it in future videos): How would you go about telling a more experienced climber that he is belaying dangerously if you spot it, without sounding like a know-it-all (if you have very limited experience)? Thanks a lot and keep up the great work!!!
Probably gain some experience first. While there are experienced climbers who do mistakes, they might also just be belaying a bit more loosely because it makes sense in that situation.
I don't want to say don't say anything, but probably get some sessions in and you probably won't have a fun time explaining it anyway 🙃
i was in the same situation like you. my approach: maybe you could not correct them but ask, why they do it? like: "since i am new to climbing, i want to learn a lot. can i ask you, why you belay like this? i learnt, that..." so you create more a conversation about safety than making them feel criticised. and dont ask them while belaying, but afterwards in a relaxed situation.
I like what @eliseschwarte7252 suggested.
But personally, I interrupt only if I see critical issues that can result into big troubles, or I know them personally and can do a friendly approach.
Otherwise it's just ego vs ego - pointless.
Nice introduction/summary of climbing (again). Just a few extra comments climbing:
1. For top rope climbing ALWAYS use your own carabiner when you climb outside. The constant rope dragging is damaging the carabiner, which is relatively hard to change (and also dangerous if somebody using damaged anchor).
2. Check the falling direction of climber. As you mentioned the human balling can happen and the climber also can hit you or somebody else which has serious consequences. It happened with my partner how hit somebody and caused concussion.
3. Always use that belay device which you well know. I saw people to hit ground with gri gri during lowering.
But anyway. It is a nice, one of the best introduction video. Stay safe, climb hard :)
For the partner check I like to pull the rope tight a bit from the belayer side and have the climber pull the rope. This way you can be 100% sure you are in the same rope, even if you cannot see the anchor, and the knot is easy to check because it is pulled up a bit.
With this, you can also double check if the belay device is locking properly as well.
As an ex-skydiver and a long time climber I'm a huge fan of a job well done with nothing left to chance when it comes to situations where errors might mean your life (or someone else's).
I'm about to get back to outside climbing and your video series is an amazing refresher on those topics. I'll even gladly admit they have actually taught me a few thing I did not already know.
I'll definitely make whatching those a requirement for people I climb with ! Cheers !
In the safety system check, the stopper knot could be mentioned. Thanks for the great input
I do the preclean setup for my friends.
After a near miss with somebody failing to do the setup correctly,
I always make sure the climber connects with a sling to the anchor before letting the tension go to remove the draw.
Also recommend "buller proof" carabineers for that
Is getting used to taking rope while the climber falls really worth it? It's such a small window during which this can actually be done, while it seems like you increase the risk of the climber falling farther by putting the break side of the rope into a position that makes belay devices less likely to lock (based on tests in a previous video of yours). It feels like always pulling the break side of the rope down during/before a fall is the better drill because it reduces the likelihood of human failure.
Exactly what I was about to comment. If someone is THAT close to the ground I'd like to have as little slack as possible, so that I do not need to take rope while the climber falls, with the chance that the load on the rope is maximum while I'm basically un-locking the gri-gri. Instead of taking rope, moving away from below the anchor point or bending your knees is also a way to tighten the rope without having to take rope.
I think this is only for the circumstance when you're on a top rope and the climber is very close to the ground already because any slack they have will be added to the distance the rope will stretch (and also will cause the rope to stretch more because they will go faster before they start stretching it)?
@@insylogo I get what you're saying, but that's still a helluva lot to calculate in a fraction of a second. How much will the rope stretch? Is he too close to the ground? How quickly can I take slack? Will my hand on the break side of the rope be compromised if I get pulled by the falling climber while taking slack? Just a lot of stuff to think about in very little time for what? How much slack are you realistically gonna be able to take in that amount of time?
I just sit on my heels and then the climbers weight takes me upwards; unless the climber shouts falling before they go it’s an incredibly fast process particularly if there is not a lot of rope in the system. I have only taken a few unexpected falls in 12 years, usually hold snaps off or foot slips on tenuous terrain.
Yeah, it doesn't feel the safest option. Dropping and putting both hands on the braking rope, pulling it down seems like the best option.
Thank you so much for the video. There are not many toprope videos and either they are only 2-3 minutes or just show the climbing. I would really have needed this video a couple years ago. We had to find out by ourselves when to leave the quickraws in and when not. Besides that, I see in the gym sometimes really scary toprope situations, we need definitely more toprope videos.
By FAR the best climbing channel i know.
I think helmet is a good thing to add to the system check. I once realized only halfway up the route my belayer forgot to wear a helmet
And gloves. Not a must but interesting.
can't wait for video about scetchy belays - our local crag is full of short routes where you're afraid of hitting the deck for the most part of a climb
First, all these compliments are deserved, I value your content! I was bummed though to see you not back up your brake hand before bumping it up / have a loose brake hand at times… which I wouldn’t want to see using an ATC or lead belaying with a GRIGRI (for consistency of best practice / good habit across these popular devices). I understand the pressure and scrutiny, and in no way want to be a negative light. I am a full time adult instructor/coach and administer lead tests, and i know a lot of newer climbers are going to copy you.
Climb on!
That is one of the best names of climbing schools or climbing indoor places
very sad that your "system check" is not shown as two way. ie the climber starts by checking the tie in, through the rope path to the stopper (or equiv) to close the system. (to include the belayer demonstrating the belay device locking if active) {Risk Reduction by each part of the system being checked by 2 people} "System Check" can still be a "buddy check". Encouragement to Develop Good Habits Indoors and Take Them Outside is great!
so many great and subtle details well covered in your video; please keep putting out masterful content! :-j
First of all, thanks for the videos!
When I'm climbing in top rope on the rope which goes through the quickdraws, I usually try to put the last quickdraw in my belayer's rope. Then, if the anchor fails, the quickdraw will save me. Of course, some times isn't worth it to do the change.
So glad to see another episode added to that series. Also thanks for the sneak peek!
I as a beginner thought I got toprope checked, but found a lot of useful tips! Never considered prestretching the rope. Also sitting down when taking never occured to me. I always did the jumping take, which can't (or shouldn't?) be done on a fall. So I'll start sitting down! Thanks!
One thing I missed in this video was different toprope scenarios. We so far only climb easier routes that are not overhanging, mostly even slightly inclining with some ledges. So standing below the anchor is impossible and rope management becomes quite tricky sometimes. Where to put your hands as the climber when the toprope kinda wants to be behind you, but cannot really. Or how (and if?) the belayer should try to move the rope actively out of heads way the closer the climber comes to the top.
Can't wait to see your take on lead belaying and hope you take extra time on how to handle weight differences.
No expert, but I think you do the jumping take if:
- there is not so much rope between you and the climber
- and there is no way they will hit the floor
- and you want to soften the fall, either because the gear is not 100% solid (friends, quickdraws) or you think the climber will hit the wall hard if you stop them too fast
@@daasdingo Sorry for the confusion: by the "jumping take" I dont mean dynamic belaying/catching. I mean when you jump WHILE you unlock the device to take in slack; jumping up takes in a huge amount of slack. Doing the same by sitting down is just better in more situations than not.
If you're belying in Top Rope situation moving backwards (you call it jumping) won't do much due to the angle of the rope going up.
So if you want to take hard you need to actively take and sit down in the harness.
Stepping back to take slack quick comes in handy in lead belaying when the rope goes to the first quickdraw not high up to the anchor.
Thank you for the lesson. I haven't top roped outside. Only gym, so this was helpful to see how it's different. Looking forward to the lead climbing video. Just recently passed that test for indoor.
Get outside, you'll love it and personally feel like it's safer. Too many injuries from those gym parkour climbing routes
@@GregSidberry I'm looking forward to getting outside.
Damnit, now I have to watch all the series. Great video.
Regarding the communication as they start climbing, i prefer that it is the belayer who says 'climb when ready' first, then the climber says 'climbing' when leaving the ground. That was it belayer is always ready beforehand
Thank you! Very professional! It’s my first introduction to climbing, and it is very interesting!
I wish I had these videos when I first started climbing!
Here in the US we use a two part confirmation command system.
It goes:
“On Belay?”
“Belay is on!”
“Ready to climb?”
“Climb away!”
It helps to solve the system check problem you mention.
Most folks use this as the same check, but this isn't meant to be a two part check. The second set of commands is meant to indicate to the belayer that they are actively under their own power, exactly in show on the video where the climber asked to take then was appearing to climb but was not under their own power until they said "climbing". The number of people just rote saying that string of commands is high, and the checks are meant to be separate from the commands which are separate themselves.
Yea this comes in very important if you're not standing in front of your partner, in some multipitch or similar situation.
@@zacharylaschober I think you misunderstand me: the “On Belay?” Command is meant to make sure the belayer is paying attention and ask the belayer if the system is functioning as expected. It most certainly is meant to be a separate set of actions to the next commands.
This catches the exact situation mentioned when the rope wasn’t attached to the climber, or any other situation similar. As the belayer begins to take in slack on the system, the belayer will notice that the rope attached to the climber isn’t moving. At that point the belayer can call for a stop.
The, “climbing?” “climb away!” Command check is the same as instructed in this video.
This is how I was taught. It was made clear to me, when I was trained to belay for work that this back and forth is very important, because the belayer and climber are not always the people who set up the system, and they both might not be able to see the whole system.
Considering that this video is meant to be a primmer for new climbers, it seems important to mention here, considering that it will be very likely that the audience won’t set up the system.
Petzl includes these commands in their instructional videos and booklets after all.
"Voy? vaya!" It's kinda obvious that different languages would say different things but, at the same time, communicate the same thing. Nice video
Yea I think I'll make a separate video dedicated to communication and might include different languages for fun.
every time you post a video makes me si happy i know is the best info i can get and ill learn a lot, i just wish they were a bit more consistent because by the time i mastered the last video and i need to learn more i still have ti wait quite a while, but anyways no pressure keep this amazing good vibes up!
Sir I am very big fan to you,very informative vedio,and also use the techniques in during fire Fighting,
Excelent content, like always. Might I add making sure there's a knot at the end of the brake rope. that's one fatal mistake you don't want to make.
One technical tip as the belayer which took me some time to find out: Actually pulling in rope with the non-brakehand while taking in slack by just placing the non brakehand up high and holding the rope tight. Any slack gets automatically taken in by your arms weight.
This doesn't work that well with friction in the system for instance when the rope runs over some big ledges (seems to be more common in our area 😅) - Do you have any practical tips on how to judge how much support the climber experiences? I sometimes get situations where my girlfriend feels less secure because the rope gets looser on her end, while I feel a fair amount of pull.
We would also love to see some tips on lowering for 20+ kg ligther belayers. Is there some kind of position that makes it more comfortable and maybe even more control?
with regards to the "how much support" question as well as the friction element, simply use the guide hand to keep the climber rope taut until enough slack is present that they've made a couple moves upward and then pull through the device. Your partner may feel safer with a tight belay, but this is a bit of an illusion because the difference is often a foot of slack. Don't argue with her on the wall, but do ask she not keep you as tight and explain why, and as long as she is comfortable with then reduce how taut you keep the rope for her unless she specifically asks for a section to be kept tight. This tension in the rope throws off balance of the climber and can assist, but breaking this habit and feeling comfortable with requires gradual and comfortable exposure.
When transitioning towards lead climbing this will become a bigger detriment since the rope will restrict movement and too little slack will cause a harder catch. Many climbers with the overt appearance of safety will keep the rope tight on lead, often drawing in all the slack the moment a clip is made and shorting every clip and giving hard catches.
On multipitch routes when belaying a second this intent to keep the rope taut is even worse since giving out any slack when a climber reverses a movement is difficult in most guide autoblock modes, and you have more leverage to pull them off balance and up the wall.
For lowering heavier climbers as I already mentioned standing directly under the anchor helps a lot, also lowering slower and at consistent pace is gonna lift the belayer up less.
For the feeling of the tension - you'll learn with experience, and yes in some high friction situations you need to watch the climber more and adjust.
If she's scared then she needs to take some falls:
I recommend this old video of mine: ruclips.net/video/ZMIObBZvNh4/видео.html
@@HardIsEasy thanks Ben! we'll work on fear of falling in the gym season; our hometown rock is quite short and due to lots of ledges really not a safe spot to fall a lot.
We obviously already saw your FOF series and kinda miss HannaBanana in your latest videos 😁😁
Call your belayer-climber by his/her name! When a crag is really crowded it's very easy to hear someone else talking to the climbing partner and think it 's yours.
I also like to do a functionality test of the setup before climbing: just taking all the stretch in and sitting in the system while the climbers is still on the ground
Thanks for this. Definitely a great video to share with new climbers.
I think one very important thing in the partner check is to check the rope/carabiner goes through the correct loop on the harness! People clip them to gear loops etc.
Never seen anyone clipping that to gear loop, that would mean that something is completely doing something wrong, but partner check should obviously notice that.
And check the stopper knot in the end of the rope, it’s a good habit for further lead or multi pitch climbing
Hi there, I have the habit, when climbing top rope uncliping, clip myself(or make the climber clip) the last quickdraw before the anchor on the belayer side of the rope, that way if it ever happens that the anchor is uncliped for whatever reason, there is still one point
Oh my god so happy I’ve been waiting for this and lead belaying!!! Very exciting!
Nice and complete as always! Can't wait for the Lead video😍
Great tutorial! Thanks for this
I don't even climb and I love your videos
Love these kinda videos man, they're great.
love you channel so much ! thank you very much for all this work.
Excellent NOTES!
I once toproped on a short route that was much harder than my usual grade. Used a Clipstick to clip the top.. climbed nicely just to arrive at the top to see that i was belayed on an open maillon.. damn..
Is the belaying technique shown in yhis video optimal? Do we have a video on this channel that compares always keeping one firm hand on the brake rope to the technique shown in this video where you slide your hand up the rope with your other hand up on the climber side if the rope? I was always taught that was unsafe, and that you should grab the rope below your brake hand to slide up your brake hand.
Ben is using a GriGri, so different technique than for a normal belay plate. "Tunnelling" is okay for top rope with a GriGri, not optimal, but okay. It's pretty much a necessity when lead belaying.
Certainly I teach (and use) V-knee-1-2-3. But then move to tunnelling when using my Edelrid Jul2 when belaying lead.
Certainly, you should never completely let go, under any circumstance I can think of. Tunnelling is broadly fine, as you can very quickly grip again if your partner falls.
...and, looking at the history, Ben covered this question 7 months ago here:
ruclips.net/video/03ext7Dahxo/видео.html
Yes, tunnel-method and PBUS have been covered here: "Complete Guide into Belay Devices - Differences and Efficient Usage | Ep.6" ruclips.net/video/qx3x5MMqGUg/видео.html
And tested here (with an ATC): ruclips.net/video/03ext7Dahxo/видео.html
HA the climbing gym on this video is our local gym in Belo Horizonte, Brazil (Rokaz). Quite cool to see it in the video! I was there this afternoon :)
Haha yea needed a quick shot of top ropes :DDDD
One quick tip as well: Don't hold onto the carabiners when detatching or attatching from quickdraws, I have heard painful stories of people falling while holding onto the crabiner and the hook of the carabiner going through their hand. Just hold onto the quickdraw itself or the rock.
You don't want to take the QuickDraw if you're above it and can fall, otherwise, normally not an issue.
Thank you very much!
I really love your video(s).
And your outro is great!!!
re: unfamiliar knots - I like to weight the belay device on the ground, so that you're sure that you're on the same rope and the knot is at least good for body weight, and that the belay device engages.
thats not how you check a knot
These videos are awesome!
These mistakes are exactly why I think toproping is scarier then lead climbing.
Are you gonna make videos of setting up different anchors?
Yeap, I'll
Maybe someone tells this on the previous 181 commets: I always tell my top rope climber to clip "my rope side" on the last clip before the anchor. With this we are safe if he/she makes something uncommon on the anchor, like putting out the rope from the anchor clips or the carabiner.
top content, as usual! congratulations!
"System Check" should also check the knot on the second end of the rope.
Always top notch
13:40 "ok.. now finish him" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
fatality :D
"and now finish him"😅 and there I imagined "fatality" in style of Mortal Combat
First? Crazy! Love the content. Keep it coming!
Thanks!
Great Video!!!!....Thank You.
Greetings from Bielefeld Germany
Love every video, you make safety so fun to learn dude!
Great video 👍
Just a small detail. Check the knot at the end of the rope, also in toproping.
One trick I use to avoid lowering too fast using the Grigri lever, is by pulling the lever with only one lazy finger
yeah i honestly don't know why they haven't changed the design of the lever to encourage a two-finger hold, it's so much safer
Excellent
Thank you!
What is wrong with the buddy check?
The only thing I can think of is the question of who is responsible for checking that you are on the same rope. But I was tought to include that in the buddy check.
Are there any other down sides?
Nothing wrong, but better to have a habit of checking the chain of safety - comes in handy in many situations.
Ben great video so glad you make these!
One question/concern: sliding the brake hand up the rope toward the belay device like that is an automatic fail at most climbing gyms. I'd love to know your thoughts on that? Is it not really a risk?
some gyms are ridiculously pedantic about a method for all aspects of climbing, whether this be orientation of knots or structure of commands or belay method itself, and often this ventures from safety into pedantry. Releasing and regrabbing the brake strand is not appropriate, but the tunnel method is a standard for many people and is incredibly efficient for taking in a small amount of slack at a time as well as being a primary method for climbers missing an arm. Make sure the brake hand is never opened, hence the "tunnel", to where the rope could leave the hand, and should never have a problem.
However, while safe there are insurance concerns and ease of safety checks. With the tunnel, novices and the complacent can easily release and regrab or otherwise open the grip enough to allow loss of control of the rope, and this is harder to see. This is why most gyms force a figure 8 follow through: everyone has the same knot which is recognizable at a glance.
Back to the pedantry of gyms, I won't argue if the gym wants a stopper knot nor a backup for the tail, but have failed a lead test because I was not using an exaggerated PBUS method every time my climber clipped to bring in all the slack which is more dangerous because I am out of belay position and causes a harder catch for no safety value. Not a mention of needing this method nor quick indication that my method was competent but the gym enforced this one and I needed to demonstrate, just a mention of failing because I did not and suggesting I take the class. I left after getting a day pass refund cause was needless rules to be able to overcharge.
opinions on belaying glasses? is ok to use them in any kind of belay?
What is the best jumping rope?
Aren't you supposed to keep one hand firmly always on the break hand? He briefly lets go off hand when taking off slack
Finish him!
Haha, it was funny.
Climbing.....Climb on.........Cliuhhhh....... Climax !
hope you'll cover how to handle pendulum falls in your lead belaying videos - I'm not scared of falling per se, I'm scared of hitting the rock in a wrong way. Very hard to find info on this - most demos are recorded on comfortable overhangs only..
Well, you can’t do much to prevent the swing when you are to the side or front of a quick draw. And usually they are surprisingly harmless. One time I hit my head and back after swinging several meters (was cleaning a route and the lowest quick draw was quite far to the side and there was a wall in the opposite direction), that was painful and certainly a reminder to wear a helmet.
I'll, but in general soft catch is recommended for pendulums, makes swing much less intense.
If someone takes hard the swing to the side will be crazy.
I need comparison of different techniques how to clean the route, especially roof routes 😉
Will do ;) Well for roofs... it's is big then top rope clean is the best :)
Does anyone know about rope positioning for the climber. Should they always keep the rope between their hands or can you put it behind your back
You almost never want the rope behind the climber ;)