How To Replace 3-Way Switches on a 50's-60's House and Avoid Common Mistakes
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2021
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Wouldn’t this be the 5693 for the 15 amp double pole 3 way switch? Thanks!
You are like Scotty for light switches. Good job.
Thanks 👍
Probably the very best video I've seen online, clearly explaining the common and traveling screws and what to look for, how to find them and changing out a three way switch, a great job!!!
Thanks so much!
As a homeowner that isn't more than moderately competent when it comes to doing these things, I appreciate your approach to describing this. Other vids I watched seem to assume the viewer has a base knowledge in the matter, so it requires multiple rewatches as I used a multimeter to figure out exactly which wire was what. Your video would have been MUCH easier for me to understand if I had found it when I did switches that were almost exactly like the two you replaced here.
I’m so glad I found your video. My house was built it the 40s and what you explained was exactly my situation. The old wires and screws were the same color so I wasn’t even clued in by that. Identifying the travelers was the secret.
Thank you very much Sparky, I liked the way you marked the colors for each individual wire to identify which one is the correct wire
Thanks Victor! Yes, the tape both identifies the wires and helps to preserve them. I recommend it.
I just changed these on my Florida 1957 house too! They also still worked before I changed them!
Good job!
This was very helpful. We are working on this old House of mine and it just happened with my electrician. I’ll show him this video in the morning because I think the travelers at the top got confused.
Hey Sparky, just wanted to take a sec and give you a big Thank You!! I've hooked up 3 ways from scratch, replaced modern 3 ways, but had NO idea / understanding of the old switches. The house i now live in is a 1950s, and I'm in the process of replacing the old 3 ways! Your vid was easy to understand and didn't have a B.S. factor, we appreciate that. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, even though you didn't get paid! Rare. Im hoping Good Things come to you for your generosity. Don M.
Hi Don. Best wishes with your beautiful '50's house!
thank you bill I am learning a lot from you that was great I love the Sparky Channel I just do little job you always show how to wok safely to me that Very Important thanks ,mike.
Thanks Mike! Yes, safety first, always!
Good job Sparky!
Thanks Walter!
My comment isn't specific to this video, but I wanted to say you have a great channel. I'm a new owner of a 1978 home and am replacing all switches and outlets and your videos have been an amazing help. I wish you were local because I just found a doozy of 1/2 a mini breaker feeding 2 full bathrooms and the master bedroom (ugh). Gonna be a fun time getting all that separated! Also THANK YOU for your videos on Wago Levernuts and in-depth tool reviews. They are amazingly useful and my new Klein Hybrid Pliers are awesome for straightening, shortening, and stripping wires to use with them. I've learned to love back-wiring for the easy swapping from Wago to receptacle or switch without bending wires. Also just bypassed and made safe a pair of switched outlets thanks to you as well.
Thanks so much . Just what I needed. 1960 home replacing 6 three way switches. Had no idea they were wired differently. All done and working correctly now.
Excellent! Way to go Jeff!
same problem with GFCIs and 4way switches; read the back of the switches, and keep your pairs sorted!
Thanks for the video. You just saved me some money.
Thank you for this ! My 1937 house has ancient Leviton switches, had a 3way go bad…imagine that ha ha. It’s really a dirty trick that the wires can’t land back on the new switch with the same pattern. Not sure which breaker fed the circuit I was on, I used insulated needle nose pliers for the task, working with it hot…POP !!! Oh well, at least I found out which breaker it’s on. The dirt colored fabric wires along with that old bad switch that wouldn’t meter open in any configuration was giving me nothing to go by. Thanks again.
I love your video, I attempted to replace my two 3- way switches with the panel switch as you have in the video.
My house is about the same age as you have demonstrated in the video, I have 2 black and one red wire, the black wire is hot BUT also my red wire is hot as well.
I'm not having any luck when I turn on the switches from both sides of the room, the light works, but not properly, I must have a traveler crossed somewhere.
So I'm going to start over as you have demonstrated.
Thank you for the video...
Poor OL JC.
Thanks for the video; I couldn't figure out why my replacement 3ways weren't working in our 50's rental house. Got them all sorted out now.
Thank you for your kindness Sparky. Your a great teacher. MUCH APPRECIATED!
My pleasure. Thanks Adam!
@@SparkyChannel .... it shows. 💯
This was fantastic! Thanks for posting
Thank you, Sparky. Helped me figure out a 1960's puzzle.
Great job Stephan!
Thank you for this helpful video. I too was trying to replace an old 3 way light switch from the 1950s. As you mention in the video, trying to transfer the wires in an intuitive pattern will fail because the Common terminal on the old switch is not in the same position as on new 3 way light switches.
I watched bunches of videos that discussed the theory of operation and instructions on how to build a 3 way light switch circuit. None of these were particularly helpful because they weren't focused on the important issue of the differences between the old 1950s 3 way light switches versus modern 3 way light switches.
After watching your video, I was able to quickly remedy the error and now the 3 way light switches work correctly.
Thanks again!
Great job Pat! Take care, Bill
Good stuff. Only one suggestion: PRIOR to flipping the breaker off, verify that there IS power to the switch. That way when you flip the breaker off and there IS NO power you know that was the right breaker.
The way you have it in this video, you only check for power once the breaker is off, but there's always the possibility one of the travelers is not working right, and everything is off... until someone flips the other 3-way switch in the hallway. Your specific example covered that by saying the 3-way switches both work correctly (so we know both travelers test good) but the general case should be to err on the side of checking first.
Also instead of a continuity test, you can hook up one traveler on each switch to "top". If the switches set to up/up or down/down don't light the lights, those are different travelers, so move one to the bottom, add blue tape, and then hook the other two up. Takes less time :)
Marked. Thank you , I will come back read your note again when next time I tear for the continuity .
it’s easy to identify the income conductor at the line end and attach to the black terminal of the 3 way switch,But at the load end , there is only one cable of 14/3 as traveller from line end . How is it possible to wire the two 3 way switches same ?
I’m newbie, I messed up with my 3 switches, please guide me . Thanks ❤
This video was very helpful, you make it so Simple simple . Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you so much!!!!! I feel more confident to upgrade our 3 way hall switches :)))
Glad I could help!
This video was so helpful. Thanks for making it.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video, the instructions were spot on
Great to hear!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Glad it was helpful!
Thankyou bill. I actually made the mistakes you mentioned about switching to a new 3 way switch. Took an hour to figure it out. Only if i had seen this video first.
Hi Rajeev! Well that's how you learn. :)
Thank you so much! This fixed my issue!
Excellent!
Thank you Bill for all the knowledge I plan on going to school to learn the trade 👍 thanks you
My pleasure! Best wishes with your schooling!
It was worth it. Thanks 😊
Perfect Thanks for the Video now my switches work again !
Great to hear!
God bless you Sir!!!
God Bless you as well!
Very helpful - thank you!
Welcome!
Very detailed information.
Thank you.
My pleasure, thanks Tommy!
Good demonstration Sparky.
Thanks Gary!
Fantastic instructions! I am so glad I found your great video. Would the same wiring apply to a 1930s home?
I would of continued the video of showing how the light was hooked up with those wires. But good illustration in showing how the switches are hooked up. 👍
Very helpful thank you!
My pleasure!
Very helpful going into a job to replace 1950's 3 way switches where all 3 screws are brass colored and terminal locations are different from the newer switches. In my case, I elected to add ground wires to tie the grounded boxes to the newer switches. This is just the video explanation I was looking for to explain what I was seeing and to get the job done right. A question pops to mind - Why did they wire the switches so that one switch lever has to be in the On (up) position and the other in the OFF (down) position for the light to turn off? (both levers up or both down for the light to turn on). Just a standard wiring practice I assume? I have 3 locations in the house all wired the same way.
Very helpful indeed
Glad it was helpful, thanks Scott!
You are so passionate, thank you
I appreciate that, thanks!
Thank you
Thanks for sharing. learned a lot. i still have a question. in this application, where is the neutral wire?
Always Fun videos. Though, as you pointed out in this video not necessary to identify Travelers, your identification/colored tape of each wire is wise, for consistency, and should an upgraded device be used (Maestro or like) in the future it is necessary to have each wire identified. Also, personal preference on my part. Wrapping side of devices with electrical tape to cover terminals due to potential movement within tight boxes of near like devices. 😎
Thanks! I did wrap each switch with black electrical tape before I installed them. IMO it's an important step.
Thank you! I've been going back n forth for 2 days! Lol 😢😅
Helpful thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Very good information especially the location of common vs traveler wires on the newer styled switches. Question: does it matter which terminal the traveler wires are attached to? Your example you had both blue&red wires connected on the bottom terminals. Would it have made a difference in the outcome if you had connected one blue&red wire to the upper terminal and connected the corresponding wire on the other switch on the bottom terminal? Thank you again for an informative video.
I had the same wiring issue replacing a GFI receptacle. The new unit was wired completely different than the old one... both were Levitron GFI's too.
Thanks!
You bet!
Thanks
Great explanation as usual 👍👍👍 Thx ... Good vid ..
Thanks Eddy, have a great weekend!
Excellent explanation
Thanks so much!
thank you this does help
Excellent!
Hi Sparky.
Would you explain more in this video about the neutral wire.
Because I don't see any neutral from the 2 boxes. Thanks for your time .
I never had to rewire older three way switches, I would have assumed they were wired like a newer three way, I would have been surprised... It looks like the traveler wires were red at one time, they look like they faded to a brown color. None the less another great video Bill. As you said you prefer to hook up your travelers in a particular order, I do that as well, so when the switches (both of them) are in the down position the light(s) are off.
Hi Mark! Excellent, that would be crossed travelers. I think the main thing is to do them all the same in a house. Yes, I was surprised to find that both of the travelers were red. But then you might find anything in a 1957 house. LOL! I like to wire them so that when both switches are up, the light(s) are on.
@@SparkyChannel Bill you're right, consistency is important. In our house they were half and half, so I made them all the same when I was repainting the house, like I described in the previous comment. Keep up the great video's I always get something out of them.
I prefer wiring the travelers your way so that when both switches are in the same position the light is off. This way I can leave them both down except when I want the light to be on then I turn one on.
A few weeks ago I finished a remodel on a ranch home built in 1952. The hallway 3 ways were wired using the Carter, or Chicago 3 way method. From a receptacle, a 14-2 no ground cloth NM, connected to the traveller screws on a three way with a pigtail, jumped over to the other three way, same thing, then jumped down to a receptacle and continued down the line. A single, black wire with a rubberized insulation kinda resembling THN, ran from the common screw on the switches, to the light. How this works, is depending on the position of the switches, a hot and a neutral, the light is ON, correct or reverse polarity, two neutrals or two hots, the light is OFF. There was no 14/3 anywhere in the house as far as I could tell, except what's been added during subsequent remodels.
Thanks, I did not know this circuit had a name. The problem is that the white to the light is hot half the time. I wonder if this is now a code violation. I first found this circuit back about 1960, and replaced a switch incorrectly, with smoke coming out when I did the smoke test. It did not let all the smoke out since I was able to reconnect it so it would work. It was very embarrassing since I was supposed to be smart.
@@felixnepveux1324 yes, this 3 way configuration has been illegal actually since 1923, but has been illegally installed for decades afterwards. Another name for this screwy set up is farmers three way or barnyard 3 way, because it also worked well for a yardlight between a house and the barn, with the power feed from the house and receptacles in the barn are hot all the time, while 3 way switches in the house and barn control the yardlight, using only 3 wires in between, excluding a ground wire. This saves one wire since a traditional three way setup in this scenario would require 4 wires, plus ground. Carter three ways were sometimes used on farms well into the 1960s, particularly if wired by old timers who lived during the great depression, they learned how to be very frugal and make do with the least, because times were very tough back then.
Thanks for a refresher before I go to straighten out 3 way switches in my niece's new purchase of a 1954 home.
Our pleasure! Good luck!
Could you do an essential tools video for beginning electrician?
Hi Bill! Love your content! Could you do a video on how to swap out an old electrical box like that one, and replace it with a modern bigger box?
with plaster walls and that grounding system, it's best to avoid changing out the box if possible, as there will undoubtedly be complications like having the plaster crack away more than you want it to, and the trouble of getting the grounding reestablished, but the basics are to cut whatever fasteners are holding the box in, getting the box loose from the finish and the wiring, and getting it out of the hole, and then figuring out what is needed to have the new box mount securely, and get the wiring into it properly.
Thanks! I was planning a similar video with this 1957 house but but because of the possible complications that Ken mentioned I decided against it. I will make a video like that if I get the chance though.
How did you do the continuity test? I have yellow traveler wires but have double switches with each second switch controlling something else and a 3 way for hallway.
So I have a red white and black wire so should I use the black wire for the common terminal and red and white wire for the travel
What an excellent, informative and intelligent video! I just have two questions. How do you test the continuity when the three-way switches are 40 feet apart? I have BX cable going from one 3-way into second 3-way, to which I have to add in exterior Romex wiring (black, red and white). With exactly your wiring setup, how would I add in that Romex to the 3-way switch? Thanks so much!
Thanks! See: How to Fix a 3-Way Switch System on a 1957 House: House Renovation Time! ruclips.net/video/XwyHaPGHu6s/видео.html
How did you your countunity test? You would need long leads .
Liversaver, much appreciated!
There is also a very old circuit for 3 way switches. I replaced one for my Mother back about 1960 (yes, I am 75), finished it, said I would do a smoke test, and smoke did come out of the wall switches. I connected it assuming it was a modern circuit. The white in the modern circuit, in all cables, is always neutral. In the old old circuit the white going to the light is hot half the time. The circuit I "fixed" had the old old wiring. The two switched terminals go to hot and neutral, AT BOTH SWITCHES. The light is connected between the commons. The advantage is that the cable to the light can come from either switch, and it takes only 3 cable runs. The modern wiring, with power run to the light first, has to have 4 cable runs. The modern wiring, with power run to the first switch only has 3 cables. Have you ever seen the "old old" wiring? You should also light up the inside of the connection box so the junctions can be seen, it helps to identify what you have.
Did you ever run into a Carter type 3-way switch setup?
It might be a good idea to clean the wire tip with a knife of piece of sandpaper and trim the tip of the wire so that when you slide the wire in the terminal, the insulation meets the edge of the brass but not under to insure complete insulation on the wire.
Does this 3 way switch with no ground wire require a screwless cover plate?
Thanks Sparky, what is your Tri-Pod lighting set up? Looks very handy!
It's just a tall lamp powered by an extension cord.
I have a problem with the new 3 way switches replacement. There is not power on those 2 switches only.I tried with a power tester but nothing happens. Everything is working well on the rest of the switches and outlets. Do you know what is going on?
Surprising, the Leviton Model 1453 still held up even with "backstab" wires on, but was starting to become outdated by the time renovation came.
SALUDOS, SPARKY FROM CLIFTON N.J, ANOTHER GREAT VIDEO AS ALWAYS G.B.Y 👌 👍 👏 😀 🙌 😄 👌 👍 👏 😀 🙌 😄 👌 👍 👏 😀 🙌 😄 👌 👍 👏 😀
¡Saludos de San Diego! My pleasure and GBY!
Thank you for this. I am working on a 1920's era house and the common wire is not identified on my switch like yours is. How does one identify the common wire if it is not evident by looking at the old switch?
Hey correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t it be easier to just pull all the wires out and turn the breaker on then identify which is your home run/ hot wire then assume the other two that aren’t hot are your travelers? And just continuity test to figure which pair goes together?
How do you know which is the blue wire at the other switch?
I'm making a video answer for you.
In a 1958ish house what is going on if there are two double 12 gage conductors (2 black & 2 white) going to each back box? Likely the power is going to the light first not the switch.
Yes, in 50's and 60's houses the power usually comes to the light first.
I removed an old 3-way switch, that worked only if you jiggled it, in my 50's home and have tried various combinations to hook up the new switch, but have not gotten it right yet. There are 2 black wires and 2 white. There are actually three switches that control my hallway light. Would appreciate your advice.
Here you go: How To Fix a 4-Way Switch System: ruclips.net/video/qUD3mUvx8Ik/видео.html
@@SparkyChannel Thanks. I didn’t realize I needed a 4-way switch. So I bought the 4-way toggle, with 4 terminals plus a ground terminal. My box has two black and two white wires. The old switch had the two black wires connected to the two terminals on the right. And the two white wires were hooked up to the two left terminals. The only testing equipment I have is the tool with 2 prongs and a light to show whether the line is hot. Should I go with the same wiring positions as before?
a few thoughts:
kudos for mentioning that the terminal positions are different for different models of switch. that was my first thought looking at the terminal positions on the new switch.
I clean the slot in the screw by setting my screwdriver in the end of the slot and tapping it through with my pliers. it works about 75% of the time and 75% of the remainder I can clear by using my razor knife. the rest I usually end up grabbing with pliers and twisting to unscrew.
80% of the time, wires can be backed out of stab connections by twisting the device while maintaining a little bit of tension on the wire. the nuclear option is to crush the device with channel locks.
with most newer wiring methods, there is about a 75% chance the travelers will come from one cable and the common will come from a different cable - though any good modern electrician will have their wires arranged in the box so there is a distinctive "one of these things is not like the others" system.
whenever I'm testing a 3 way system, I will check to make sure I can turn the wire off from one switch and on from the other and then the reverse, as the most common miswire leaves the system so that one of the two switches can turn the light off such that it can't be turned on from the other.
I love the "crush the old switch with Channellock's" method. That's my favorite method of getting the old wire out because it's fun and less wear and tear on the old wires. I'll have to do that on one of these videos. LOL!
Excellent tips, thanks!
@@SparkyChannel i troubleshoot receptacles in stabbed houses by just pulling them out of the wall. When i get to the one that the wires fall out of i know i have the problem child.
@@kenbrown2808 LOL! Funny but true!
I tried to change out some switches today in my 1960's house and I cant figure out what I'm doing wrong. Both boxes have a single black, white, and red wire. I hooked the black wire to the common black screw (lower right). The red wire was hooked to the upper right brass colored screw, and the white wire to the single brass colored screw on the left side. Both switches are the same model and are wired exactly the same. What's happening is that I have to leave switch #2 in the down position for switch #1 to work. If switch #2 is in the up position, then switch #1 is dead and doesn't work at all.
disconnect all the wires, turn power back on and figure out which one is hot by using a test light to the box (assuming the box is grounded) for me... red was hot and so went on the black screw...Black and white went on the brass screws... At the other switch... I have to figure out which one goes to the light fixture with power.... one of two black wires has to go to the fixture!... when it did not work properly I flipped the two blacks and retested.... success!
My house was rewired I am assuming in the 50s. I have cloth wire and no ground. I have a switch that runs between my house and garage light. Come to find out, I have a situation called the Carter 3 -Way. Can you do a video explaining that because is that set up the neutral is hot
In the process of moving. I might start my own channel and do a demonstration on a piece of plywood with a light, two three ways, and a receptacle that's always hot, using 14-3. Basically your travellers are hot and neutral with a pigtail to continue the circuit, then the light is hooked to the common screws on both switches, essentially switching the polarity of the lamp socket, a hot and a neutral, correct or reverse polarity and the light is ON, two neutrals or two hots and the light is OFF. This setup was very common on farms until the 1950s and '60s used to control a yardlight with a pair of three way switches in the house and outbuilding, with receptacles in the outbuilding constant hot, using only 3 wires. Saves one wire, many times electricians from the Great Depression era used this method because they learned to live very frugal when times were very rough.
Hello Mr Sparky how to get a receptacle under my light switch without a neutral wire a an old house 1949
Please help Thanks 🙏
You must have a neutral for that.
@@SparkyChannel thanks for your replied I was finally to get the neutral wire from my ceiling fan where I have my switch control and from there I was able to do my receptacle
Thanks 🙏 God bless you
You all having fun with normal setups look up the Carter or Chicago systems lol I find them when pple change to polarity sensitive led bulbs lol
I want to add a switch to my attic. I have one by the attic door. It's a 3 way switch, wires the house has is a white and black one and a ground. I failed putting in a second switch :-(
My house was built in 1980. It is full of 3-way switches which I decided to replace some time ago with more modern ones. The install was just to jack up the home cost, since in some cases you could stretch your arms and actually reach both switches, so they made no practical sense.
There are even a couple of 4-way switches which I tried also to upgrade and were a total bitch especially with all the old wires jammed in the box.
There were some really cheap switches around in the 1980's so I do understand why you would want to change them out. Good job!
I just tried this without sitting on your council. Had issues, couldn't get both switches sequenced. Could charge, felt I had more to learn to earn.
You want to know about a really weird, and I mean WEIRD setup, I came across once on a service call a few years ago, to a farmhouse with a barn that has outlets that are constant hot, an old style barn hood type light on a pole and three wires between the house and light and the barn and light, in an REA area, probably originally wired in the 1940s. I was changing out a service panel in the barn due to rust, with all new square D breakers. Got called back the next day because the old yard light was blowing out the bulbs when the homeowner tried to turn it off. Turned out, the three way switches were each on a different circuit, and the hot and neutral were on the traveller terminals, and the yard light in between was connected to the common of each switch. I discovered how this orginally worked, was the light will be off if the light gets both neutral or both hot, but will turn on if it gets a hot and a neutral, polarity reversed depending on the switch positions. When I replaced the panel in the barn , unaware, I put the circuit with the yard light on the opposite phase , so instead of two hots turning the light off, the bulb got 240 volts shot through it. Just had to move the breaker over one slot.
Wow!
I wish I would have found this before the frustration level of why I couldn't get them to work correctly!
That's why I made the video. :)
Just having the circuit not work properly is far better than causing a short that results in a big fault. You were lucky.
I live in 1929 house i only have one wire coming outta the wall and i believe other wire was broke off an outlet to the other side of the swich still not getting power 😑
This could be a dangerous situation as you may have an uncapped hot wire in your wall, perhaps behind the electrical box. I would recommend getting an electrician to help you out on this one.
in my house and sons 1960 home our 3ways are done with 2 wire not 3 wire how is that done
The neutral is being used as a traveler wire.
Possibly using the ground as a common or traveller? I've seen this, definitely against code and I do not recommend doing that except at your own risk.
How can you tell which is the common is you already messed up and mis-wired the new switch?
Separate the wires with the breaker off then turn it on then it should be the one that’s hot the other 2 are the travelers
Whats a guy to do when all the travelers are hot?
I have one switch with a black, white and red wire, and the other switch has 2 black and a red wire.
The white wire ties into the black wires at the ceiling fan and i dont know where the red wires are located. Im gonna do a continuity test today on the red traveler wire.
so i got a doozie of a question...i think...gimmie a break im only an apprentice working on my dads rental house....usually only do commercial work.....soooooo...got an older house....from the panel...12/3...black to cir 4....red to circuit 5....share a neutral....comes out of panel to a j box..from j box red goes and runs some outlets in the living room....fine...no problems there...from the j box....the black runs up to the kitchen "switch"....got it....home run...so in the kitchen is....single gang box....with 2 switches and an outlet...all in one...keeping in mind...i didn't remove this 2 switch 1 outlet...and the wires are old nob n tube...can barley see colors...want to do away with outlet...one switch runs a kitchen light....one switch runs the adjacent stairway light...after some trial and error...couple sparks...alot of cuse words....i finally figure that mess out...(or so i think)....kitchen light...works fine....come to find out...stairway light....pull string...is also connected to the outside light....via a switch by the outside door....@#!@#$#@!!!....figure out where it runs from stairway light to switch......and figure out from outside light to switch...so at switch box....i have old wires...cant tell color...trouble shooting....take wires and run a set to one switch...other set of outside light wires and run to another switch...none of these switches are 3 pole switches..wires going to stairway light from switch in the kitchen are 12/3...i think black, red, white....cant hardly tell from being so worn....from stairway light to switch by door...12/2...black and white...wires from outside light to switch...12/2 black and white...long story short....i have either an outside light....or a hallway light...or neither...or both but very "weak"....ive done continuity texts...check voltages....i cant figure out how to seperate the stairway light and outside light....where did i go wrong? can i take a double switch and "jump" the hot from one switch to the other so only having power to outside light when stairway light is on? im lost...for my dad...want to look good...otherwise hes going to quote "just hire an electrician " ouch!
I dont know how only one traveler wire is continuous and the other is not. Bot are, otherwise it wont work.
he used the continuity test to identify the ends of each traveller. The travellers are not equivalent to him?
Also, the 3way switches I've seen do not have a "top" written on them.
@@wim0104 it's funny. I am a pro and this was strange to me
Another common problem found in 3 way, and especially circuits with one or more 4 ways in between, is that the neutral in the last switch gets connected to the nearest white wire the electrician can find. This can result in the neutral current not returning through the same opening in the panelboard as the hot came out of. This is done so 3/C cables are not required between the 3 and 4 way switches. It is a code violation. It often happens if there is no more 3/C on the site. You can spot this by observing a white that does not connect to anything in one of the 3 way or 4 way boxes. The problem with this is that it causes heating in the metal opening that does not have a net zero current , possibly destroying insulation over time. In old, and new 3 way circuits, you should verify that the neutral gets back to the panel properly.
I love your videos, but I have an issue that is very petty. You always refer to the gold colored screws as brass colored. I could be wrong and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me. As far as I know brass is not a color, it is a materiel. Look forward to your future videos.
Darren: Interesting. Copper, Gold, and Silver are all materials. We call these objects
Copper colored, Gold colored, Silver colored.
Thanks so much! What color would you call the terminals in question?
@@SparkyChannel Thanks for the reply, so from watching your videos I went from being terrified of doing electrical work to being fairly confident. Because of your videos on electrical and plumbing, along with others on youtube my family and I have flipped 18 houses. So my kids now do their own electrical work, but they often call to ask which wire goes where, where does the black one go and where does the white one go. So this will answer your question on what do I call the terminals, My kids are now adults, so I'm not talking to children, I call the terminals silver and gold, like the Burl Ives Christmas song. So I say black to gold and silver to white. We are Pittsburgh Steeler fans so the term black to gold rings a bell and helps them remember which goes where.
@@tedlahm5740 Hey Ted, Like I said if I was incorrect someone would correct me. I'm still not sure if I'm wrong. I still base what a color is on if it's in a crayola box of crayons, admittedly not very scientific, your logic makes good sense to me. But would you also say that we could define a color as asphalt, concrete, plastic, glass? Also I'm 50 years old and as far as I know crayola only has a 64 crayon count, and brass wasn't one of them. but they probably have a 128 count by now and brass is probably in it? Have a great day!!!
@@darrenmcquerrey4815 Wow, fantastic!
Have you heard that the NEC is campaigning to change the meaning of stop lights ? So that green means stop and red means go ? ….kidding
Where are the Nuetrals?!?!
The neutral wire goes from the service panel to the light fixture.
No Neutral in either box? Would like to see a DIAGRAM as to how this was wired
originally to accomplish this. The second switch takes the current OUT to the load.
to draw your diagram, start with the fixture in the center. hot goes from the fixture to one switch, the travelers both pass back through the fixture to the second switch, and the switch leg returns from the second switch to the fixture. the neutral is in the fixture, only. it is likely in Bill's install that the original colors were black, red, and white, and the original electrician painted the white wire red in the switch boxes.
@@kenbrown2808 Thank you for responding. ( The travelers both pass back through the fixture) Got it. Three (3) conductors from the fixture to both of the switches.
In old installations, which this is, this was never required to have a neutral at the locations of switches. So the guys back then didn't bring in the neutral wire there.
In other countries this is the same thing. For example here in Germany. That's not a problem if you replace a simple light switch with another one, but if you want to install such things like a PIR or a timer or smart switch this can become a problem if you don't have a neutral wire. Switches are looking different, but here you got the diagram. Here the common is marked with L (older ones with P or red), and the arrow marked terminals are for the travelers. Wiring itself is the same. Switches here are double insulated, so they don't require a ground.
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@@Marcel_Germann our switches didn't require a ground until around 96, and in my area, if they had a plastic cover plate, the ground didn't have to be connected until about three years ago. Addendum: the first time i ever had a switch with a hot mounting strap was after they started grounding them.
@@kenbrown2808 The problem are the screws for the face plate. In a worst case scenario an exposed part live at mains voltage. The alternative would be, make the face plate a bit thicker and recess the screws into that face plate. So they are safe against direct contact, what we call literally translated "finger safe". On our switches the frame around the switch is held in place with a clamp, usually metal, which is then covered by the rocker switch cover which you then use to switch the lights on or off. Here on the picture is a so called "control switch". It has a neon indicator inside, and it requires a neutral. Control switches are used if you switch a light that's not in the line of sight from the location of the switch. That one is for the lighting in my attic, the switch is in the room below with the access hatch:
abload.de/img/img_0960f2jnp.jpg
I'm not a fan of those flat Leviton switches. Too modern for my taste.
OK, thanks!
Thanks