Hey CB. What are your thoughts on: keeping rhe rule that you can change tyres under a red flag, BUT you have to drop a certain amount of places on the restart? Doesn't kill the idea of changing tyres, still probably better than under a yellow. And a shake up of grid order is usually a spicey turn of events, and potentially more overtakes on track...
The only way we can see a clean race is that if the stewards agree to take away the one( 1 ) of Max in Spa which really wasn't a race at all, when no one was allowed to overtake under a safety car. That would make them even on points and actual race wins with 8 a piece. Then, this will be a clean race...hopefully!
You forgot to mention for Abu Dhabi, Red Bull need both cars to finish in order to have a chance at getting the constructors. 1 driver can't make up 28 points.
This isn't objective at all tho. He doesn't even pretend to not give Max the benefit of the doubt constantly. This whole video is just defending everything Max does as just "racing hard".
@@sidarora88 How? You can see how his language changes when he talks about Max's actions. He minimizes it. Re-watch the section on Max braking in front of Lewis and tell me Chainbear doesn't want to minimize the danger of the situation.
@@austinobambino1360 The only time he gives Max any benefit of the doubt is towards the end. And even then I feel that's stretching the meaning of "giving benefit of the doubt".
In NASCAR, after a red flag, they go back to yellow, behind the pace car, at which time, damaged cars in the pits can make repairs, and those on track can choose to pit and make repairs, change tyres etc. I wouldn’t hate seeing that here.
Another solution would be to close the pit lane if there is a barrier issue to see if it can be fixed quickly or not, and then open it for the pitstops
@@KillBillVaggeli13 Personally I believe the pit lane should be closed as soon as a Safety Car or VSC is called, also a VSC must last at least one lap and end at the same point for the leader.
wouldn't work at all. You pit far more often in nascar because the race is 300 laps. Cautions are thrown much more frequently and have a completely different strategic significance. Everybody gets bunched up every time, not that they aren't already even before the caution, and the pitstop is far more valuable since it is out of necessity and it doesn't cost that much. You can claw your way back from being last in a couple of laps if you have a car that could win the race. In formula 1 the only time you get to pit under a safety car is on the initial lap before the safety car queue assembles. You can't just nascar your way into fresh tires because pitting while in the queue drops you to the back of the field, and from there your chances of winning are drastically worse than if you did anything else. The initial solution that would make sense is if you closed the pitlane until the safety car queue bunches up. This is fair but it creates a problem whereby actually damaged cars cannot leave the track and this is dangerous. Theoretically you could mandate that if a car enters the pitlane under a safety car, the pitlane exit is closed until the queue passes it, that would be more fair. Then if you need to get to the pits, you can, but only do so when you absolutely have to, and noone can game the system. I would apply the same rule to VSC. If you pit under VSC, you automatically have to serve a 10 second penalty at the pitstop, just to offset the time saved from cars going slowly. In terms of red flag tire changes, I would simply give any car that wishes to change tires a drive through or a stop go penalty to be served at any time they wish after the restart. This means that any team that wants to change tires, still can, but it's no longer free. You can do it for strategic reasons or because you have a puncture or whatever, but you still have to take the time to drive through the pits during the actual race. Forcing it to take place within 3 laps I don't think is mandatory in this case because while these are given out as penalties, it makes sense that they be served when they are given, because a nature of a penalty is punishment, and letting the driver choose when to serve it can nullify the punishment aspect, but changing tires under a red flag isn't necessarily wrong or deserving of punishment, it simply needs to cost something to make it fair, hence why the driver could choose when to server it, so that his strategy remains somewhat uncompromised and he still has a say in the matter. It would essentially emulate a scenario where he would basically have to weave in a normal pitstop into the race like he should have done in the first place. It still isn't completely fair because he gets to basically loan fresh tires that he only needs to pay back for later and in a lot of cases this could be far more beneficial than staying on old ones, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting to do it for free altogether.
I dunno, I stopped watching Formula years ago and this race was really fun to watch, both the street track looking like Gran Turismo's Special Stage Route 11 instead of boring grassy stadium, and the action with two restarts from zero instead of endless dragging behind the pace car. Was also fun to see Kimi, Nando, Seba still racing.., Michi Schumacher looks much younger than I remember him tho. xD
As most folks have said, you gave a really well-balanced perspective with way more *useful* context than all the other pundits (The Race, WTF1, Chequered Flag, etc.). Great job chainbear!
The rules and regulations for the 2021 season state: "From the time at which all teams Competitors have been sent the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message via the official messaging system until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA." Bottas' was at the low end of the delta, and Hamilton was at the high end of the delta allowing for this to happen. This was confirmed by Bottas' steering wheel and a radio message from the FIA. If Bottas was under his delta, then Red Bull would be protesting.
Makes sense. If Lewis and Valtteri got the "We're double-stacking" message, they'd want to create as much space between them, just in case there was any problem with Lewis's stop.
MY question is, if at a red flag restart Hamilton didn't have to keep 10 car-lengths, how much does he have to keep? Can a 2nd place driver come 30 seconds after leader on the grid? If for example, Merc has 1-2 and Red Bull has 3-4, can one Red Bull hold 20 car lengths and another one another 20 car lengths? 30? It makes no sense to not have standard rule apply.
This is what happens when sections in the rules are changed or new ones are added without looking at the whole thing. Standing red flag restarts is a new rule. Instead of just saying, "normal standing start rules apply, except: a b c d", they just wrote a new rule that covers some of the same stuff from standing start rule, but misses some other points. They edit or add a rule to fix a problem and they create another one at the same time. The same crap approach happened in technical regulations, which brought us to this point where one needs DRS to overtake. 2022 is the first ground up rewriting of the chassis rules for decades.
There is a rule about the formation lap which says you have to keep the formation "as tight as possible". Although it may not apply to the red flag restart as Pandamasque pointed out.
F1 Barriers components are heavy and often need a truck to bring new components trackside, so a very heavy barrier impact in a breaking zone is going to cause red flag. It didn’t in the past as we didn’t use to scrupulously repair barriers to signed-off perfection during races. Just a weird thing to object to.
hehe I don’t know whether I was supposed to find this video or not yet but I’m very glad I did!! I’ve been eagerly awaiting your thoughts on the mess at the weekend! thanks for all the effort you put into both your analysis and your video editing - your passion for the sport is obvious!
@@kariolm2579 Prost said it too. This case is like that all over again. The Professor Vs the Wonderkid. (Prost - Hamilton) (Senna - Verstappen) for people who have been watching f1 for years have seen all this before, the difference this time is the FIA President has not made rules up on the weekend. DQ for Senna not entering back on the same part of the track. People call it the Mafia now man back then it was a complete joke. This is history repeating and I can even put myself into this category, I though Senna was terrible until 1993 when he was magical in a car which was inferior to the Williams. Then he was gone and we knew he was special.
Formation Laps have become a massive farce in the last year or two. Drivers take an absolute age to file onto the grid because they're all trying to actively mess with everyone around them. I'd like to see some increased regulation in this regard, to ensure that everyone files onto the grid in a reasonable time.
Introduce a mandatory wait time if the grid doesn't arrive within a listed time. If the grid arrives late, then everyone will wait a certain amount of time before it starts so whatever tire temp advantage is reduced. If they arrive on time, then there is no wait time.
Someone tell me how Chain bear never has a bad take. I hope you take some downtime as well this off season Chain Bear, you’ve been entertaining us all season and deserve it
Been watching you since the start and just want to commend you on your balanced opinion and insight. Your analysis and Jolyon Palmer's are the ones i look forward to most after a big talking point.
i literally had a headache after this race and had to take a nap. anyway, thanks for the explanations, hands down the best f1 channel on youtube. thanks, bear.
I think what we learned as well from that weekend is that Jeddah Circuit is absolutely unsuitable to hold a Grand Prix. What a shit show. Like half the race under safety car, 2 red flags, absolute carnage and that’s just the F1 race, not even taking F2 into account
8:08 tecnically the restart order should have been the same as the first red flag, because they didn't complete the lap; So the "Deal", even if it made the race much more engaging, it was ridiculus. Still happy with the result having a gran finale at Abu Dhabi.
Yes I looked through the rules and this is what I thought too - there's just no power to do this. Surprisingly not even penalties can be applied here. I get it makes some sense but you have rules for a reason. It doesn't appear anything like this in fact ever has happened before either.
@@jackw7714 I thought when a red flag was thrown, the countback went to the last completed lap of racing, which would have been the order behind the Safety Car. Everything else is wiped out. Like a red flag on Lap 1, the grid reforms as it would have started, moves in the first lap are ignored. The countback rule was how Fisichella beat Raikkonen in Brazil 2003, but only got the trophy 2 weeks later in Imola.
I agree with most points, very well put. the only thing i object to is not inspecting bottas slowing down under SC because it benefitted verstappen in the end. After the silverstone crash, the explanation for the small penalty was that only the offense itself is judged and not anything that follows from the offense, which would still make it necessary to investigate bottas in this case.
It’s simple: teams should be able to repair damage and change tires, but, critically, the new tire should not count for the second compound requirement for dry races. You know - safety first.
I agree with this as well. Then for safety purposes/some strategy the teams can change the tire but they don’t get the free pit stop. Would make for some more exiting races as well if it means 2 tire changes.
Or just force anyone who has new tyres/front wing etc during a red flag to take a drive through, at a time of their choice, once the race resumes. It wouldn't exactly balance with the time gained, but it would be a lot closer than the current situation.
That wouldn't really be fair either. What if say, you start on Soft and only have 1 set of Hards left, you plan a soft-hard strategy, and a red flag happens. You can either change tyres like everybody else in the pits, but then get disqualified because you don't follow tyre regulations and don't have another set of hards left, or you don't pit, restart the race on old softs, fall back a bit, and then immediately pit and end up effectively last after the pit stop phase. It could really screw teams over depending on how many tyre sets they have left.
fast pitstop point, last time, promise. 12:00 glad somebody else also noticed max's weaving, as you say it wasn't obvious, but confusing to anyonebehind who is already unsure if they are supposed to pass, when they don't want to pass at that point anyway. and good to see max did actually "brake test", i like lewis for his clean driving. i would think disable DRS for one lap, it's so obvious what the tactic will be.
"but that doesn't mean he'll cheat" at 14:35 bothers me. Is leaving the track deliberately to gain or retain a position like in the last two races not cheating? There is precedence! We all know it, that's why we're all talking about it and Masi even felt compelled to come out and warn about points deductions. Let's not pretend that wasn't aimed at Max and Redbull.
I would hope if the race ended with one of them taking the other off (or trying to) the culprit would be excluded from the championship as has happened once before in exactly this situation.
@@philspencelayh5464 I've been saying that with the way things have been and how aggressive we've seen the racing get, if there's a move that the stewards feel is overly aggressive enough that it basically causes the other driver to crash out, the offending driver will be hit with a 10 place grid drop post-race and a penalty of 1 point, with the team being hit with a penalty of 100 points and a major fine. This will ensure that if someone crashes the other driver out, the offending driver cannot win the Drivers' championship, and their team cannot win the Constructors' Championship. And when teams are dealing with the a 7- or maybe even 8-digit hit to their finance... that should make it VERY clear that the FIA are not putting up with any shit.
Because Max knows Mercedes has been faster and the season is coming to a close, Max had to explore all the gray areas as much as possible and fight tooth and nail against Hamilton. Can't really blame him for that, he had to try and can't just gift it away. But I agree with you on 13:31
No, he got screwed by the second VSC. No questions asked how HAM got DRS in the first place on Max while he could not follow in the second sector. It's all fud and people brainwashed by the commentators.
I 100% agree with you that Max wouldn't deliberately cause a double DNF. However, I wonder what the odds are that this is the outcome of the race given what you mention in the video.
It all depends on where they sit after quali. Lewis knows that Max is willing to defend to the death because he cannot lose the position. If he defends hard and they lose equally, Max still wins. That's sort of the problem for Lewis. Once Lewis is in the lead, the race is over, because he'll pull away in the clean air, and Max can't cleanly pass Lewis back, bar some tire shenanigans. Lewis will have to pass on a straight and not in a turn, but with the faster car, that's where he'll want to do it anyway. Alternatively, Lewis can intentionally take a bad pass attempt, force Max to penalty to defend it, then just camp in second and win with a 5 second time penalty. It's the shady way of doing it, but it's way easier and safer to bait Max into a penalty than to pass him clean.
It wasn't just the race that had questionable elements - yet again we had drivers pissing about driving dangerously slowly during qualifying, and instances of dangerously slow running during free practice - none of which was really penalised. Every single driver who was running ridiculously slowly should have had a penalty - one which had actual consequences. Monetary penalities for either the team or driver don't ever satisfy that - given team budgets, and driver salaries (or 'Daddy's money where applicable), any financial penalty is meaningless (e.g. Mercedes were given a $25000 fine, but honestly does anyone believe that actually has any impact for a team spending $140m?). Given the number of drivers who keep doing this, grid penalties and time penalties wouldn't work either - after penalising half the grid, you'd just end up with the status quo. Therefore penalties should be applied in terms of championship point deductions - possibly combined with much harsher license point penalties. Start causing material damage to the constructors and drivers championship hopes, and I think everyone involved will quickly get their act together
I think that restart position discussion would have received much less attention if the final order would have been the initial offer. But there first an offer of second place so it felt like the teams where making counter offers.
I think it is the cheesy language which seems very unprofessional. Masi could have simply said, "Either Max can start behind Lewis, or I will refer it to Stewards. Let me know what you (RB) prefers?"
With regards to the red flag rule, are we forgetting what happened at Baku this year? Rather a red flag and changing their tires than more cars' tires blowing up and hitting the walls at dangerous speed in Baku. I'm a Lando fan, but his comments on the red flag is kinda 1-sided. He hasn't benifited from it so far unlike Max and Lewis, just bc he hasn't benifited doesn't mean its a stupid rule.
Also many people say Max shouldn't have benifited him in the first red flag so some toxic Lewis fans moaned abt it, but if it was Lewis benifiting and Max losing out, then the toxic Max fans would have moand abt it as well.
@@I_AM_HYDRAA Like chainbear said it would take too long for the FIA to inspect all the cars to see if they can change tires or repair dmg and we would rather see racing then. I understand the sentiment, but there hasn't been red flags since after Baku 2017 until before Monza 2020 which means its usually rare for red flags to happen. Its only happend so often the last 2 year for some odd reason(with Max and Lewis crashing contributing to that tally).
@@stefandebeer9375 tbh toxic fans on both sides have pissed me off this year, but that's the internet for you. That said I was cross initially, but there again shit happens. James Vowles in the Merc Debrief on RUclips admitted that it was a risk, they rolled the dice and loss. You just have to take the rough with the smooth.
@@stefandebeer9375 no I mean obvious damage only a missing wing or maybe by repair just to remove debris that only has a bit hanging on. I mean only repairs you would do during a pitstip
There was a point where Max again had to give the place back to Lewis and ended up taking it straight back but didn’t end up getting the same 25 second penalty that Lewis did years earlier so I’m not sure about what you were saying there but other than that great and impartial video
Half of this shenanigans between HAM and VER could have been avoided if Stewards issued penalties more often when they push each other out of the track. On the restart where Ocon got 2nd place, Lewis should have received a 5-second penalty too for forcing a driver out of the track. The same penalty that should have been issued against Verstappen in Brazil or Hamilton in Monza.
Thanks for the video. On Bottas' slow entry into the pits, I think we do have a precedent established from the 2017 Bahrain GP, in which Lewis was penalized for holding up Danny Ric after Sainz collided with Stroll. Hamilton's stalling there seems less severe than Valterri's here, yet he was punished and Valterri was not. Consistency is not the FIA's strong point and it presumably cost Ocon a nice podium bonus. FIA needs to get its act together on both issues of safety and governance of on track action.
Not penalising Bottas is the exact point the stewards lost control of this race, for me. It sent out the message that it was acceptable to race dirty, which no doubt encouraged Lewis to play games on that formation lap, and then Max to retaliate in frustration by cutting turn 2. Hand Bottas a penalty (even just 5 seconds), and none of those other incidents happen.
There is no similarity in these two incidents. When safety car comes out, you have time delta to follow until you catch up the safety car train. Once you catch safety car, you are not allowed to be 10 car length behind the next car. Bottas has not caught up to safety car so can follow the delta. Lewis was going the fastest allowed by delta and Bottas was going the slowest allowed by delta. RB knew what the rules were and didn't protest. Max was just either confused about the rules or stirring the pot. Bahrain 2017 - Lewis was driving slowly approaching the speed limit line and after the speed limit line where you are not allowed to drive unnecessarily slowly entering or in the pit lane. Hamilton was slow to get to the grid for the restart but again, we don't have the rules for restart. I think they need to fix that but as of know, Lewis can drive slower than Max unless it is deemed unnecessarily slow. (again grey are, need some clarification).
Simple solution on the tire front. The compound can’t change and doesn’t count as the mandatory compound change pitstop. So red flags before the pitstops still mean another pitstop has to happen later in the race. If the driver doesn’t have a spare set of the compound then the FIA checks for significant/potentially dangerous damage and only in that case may the compound be changed.
Maybe if a yellow turns into a red the race should restart in the order when the yellow came out, thus undoing the advantage of not pitting? And to be clear, I'm advocating a rule change here, not saying the rules shouldn't have been followed.
Just adding on: the current red flag rule is obviously designed for immediate red flag situations. With an immediate red flag, everyone can change tires/repair, but everyone is given the same track position that they had at the time of the incident. If you are moving from a yellow to red, the same idea should apply, everyone should restart in the position they were in at the time of the incident.
OR you could change to whatever tyres, but they won’t count as a mandatory stop, therefore they will still need to box again but have the strategic leeway to decide. I think that would be best
@@ColHanko I've seen this mistake a lot. The pitstop isn't mandatory. It's mandatory to drive on 2 compounds unless it's a wet race. Pit stops have never been mandatory
@@ColHanko There's no such thing as a mandatory stop though. Not unless you get the so-called 'meatball flag' and the race director ushers you into the pits, that is, but that's a whole different kind of pit stop we'd be talking about.
I think if there was predetermined penalty boxes off track for cars to do a stop and go away from the racing line, it would prevent an on track collision like we saw in Jeddah
When we had the restart, meaning end of first red flag, and within a few corners, another red flag.. shouldn't all the positions had remained the same? There wasn't a lap completed from one red flag to the other, I always thought they used the positions of the last completed lap before the red flag was flown. (taking an example from Monaco '84) Can someone enlighten me?
I think that applies only if the race is ended prematurely with a red flag? But if it’s restarted then the order is decided from the point the red flag was waved? I thought the same thing as you when I watched the race but looking at previous red flag incidents this seems to be the rule? I haven’t looked at the rule lol though so I may be wrong
I don't think Max is going into a race intending to double DNF, or race unfairly. However, we can all see that his idea of fair racing includes what he did at Brazil, his questioning of why he was penalised this time since he wasn't in Brazil is proof. Is it deliberately causing a crash to take a line into a corner that goes off track but also intercepts a driver on a different line whose trajectory stays on track? The primary intent there is to intimidate the other driver into backing off, but if there is a crash I would say the driver who had the intent to go off track is at deliberate fault.
LOOOOOOL "We have one final race to get that nice, clean fight..." How'd that work out at Abu Dhabi? (I just watched your video on that farce, and your takes are always wonderfully sensible - so please keep it up, you're awesome!)
Ohh I'm ready for this super calm and collected, and totally not toxic comments section 😂 Edit: 13:16 ohhh that's where you're wrong ChainBear... that's EXACTLY what I wanna see.
You did miss the part where Max let Lewis though again, and Hamilton slowed down and 100% intentionally ran Verstappen out at the last corner. Ok, Max was trying to pull the same move of letting Lewis go right before the DRS detection, but Hamilton deliberately went wide to push Verstappen out of the track. How is that any different from what Max did in T1? I believe they also need to fix the missing rule of having no maximum distance between two cars during formation laps. Now that Hamilton showed everyone they can do this, what's preventing anyone from going insanely slow and having the cars on front wait forever before they start? It's silly.
I'm glad you put into words what I couldn't about the turn 1 incident that left Ocon in front, while everyone and their mother were complain that Masi was making deals
Well, we've seen a (kinda) clean fight between the two yesterday. So your prayers were heard. But Masi f*cked it up once again. His communication (not his decissions) is so bad. Last week RB was the victim, this week Merc.
For the changing tyres under red flag rule, I’d like to see it to where whilst you can change tyres under the red flag, it doesn’t count towards your mandatory pit stop though that would need the rule to be completely reworded
I suppose the rule is written to say you have to use 2 tyre compounds during a race. Maybe as the tyre change is allowed for safety reasons, the rule could be that under a red flag you may change your tyres for another set of the same compound.
Thanks for such a good explanation! I was really confused about commentator fuming over Bottas holding down Max early on before pit stop and I didn't understand what he did, your graph really helped! Hoping the fastest one wins the final, and not some weird bureaucratic shenanigans.
On the topic of repairs and tire changes during a red flag, I personally think that any car that has had changes made during a red flag should start from the pit lane. It's completely fair to allow teams to repair damage, change tires, etc, but I dislike that it's effectively a get out of jail free card for strategy mistakes or driver errors. I didn't like Ferrari and Mercedes repairing their cars at Baku 2017, wasn't a massive fan of Gasly's free pitstop at Italy 2020 (though admittedly I am a Sainz fan), and the massive advantage Hamilton got at Imola and England this year has irked me. That said, I would want going between slicks, inters, and wets to be exempt, as the entire grid starting from the pitlane would be just a bit dull.
One possibility for the giving back position shenanegans would also be that you have to hand over the position at the point where you gained the initial advantage.
Everyone seems to forget about the VSC. That’s the reason, why Hamilton can even try to overtake Max at turn 1-2 with drs, cause the VSC started, when Hamilton was the closest to Max before sector 1, then they keep this distance cause VSC, and after sector 1 (where Max was always faster) they let them go. So the VSC was the reason why Hamilton can try overtake Max, that’s why Max was frustrated and defended “like a lion 🦁 “ 😅 I think, the VSC should be started and finishes at the same point, to no one gain advantages of it. So at least one lap of VSC.
I agree with most of it, apart from masi negotiating with the teams. In my opinion there needs to be clearer rules around this cause it is essentially putting all the power in micheal masi and micheal masi alone to give a "good and fair" offer. I think it would be simpler if either Red Bull gave the position back without the hint from the Masi, or the stewards just gave them a penalty. It's not like the didnt deserve it in the first place. And that is the problem. If Masi negotiates with some teams and not others (cause he cant negotiate every decision) then some teams will arguably gain an advantage
@@Jason-gq8fo Vettel got the penalty for the sideswipe, not for "ramming" Hamilton, because while the telemetry showed Hamilton didn't apply actual braking force, he did nonetheless let the car slow down unnaturally immediately after a blind corner. While I think it is entirely consistent with Hamilton's MO that he did it deliberately, unfortunately there's no such thing as telemetry when it comes to drivers' thought processes, so we'll never know. General point being that Vettel, or indeed any other driver without superhuman reaction times, was always going to hit Hamilton from behind because of Hamilton's slowdown, and Vettel (rightly) got the penalty for taking his very understandable frustrations out on Hamilton in an unsportsmanlike manner.
13:58 may I remind you of: "is this racing or ping pong? I have to avoid him otherwise we're going to crash". He has always been like that. I think Max is the only one to be that aggressive that often, pretty much expecting the other drivers to move out of the way. Of course he is not the only one to ever do it, and we also all know he can make incredible, clean overtakes, but almost every fight in recent races was at least questionable.
People are getting way to hung up on the word "offer" in Massi's communication with Red Bull, but in reality what Massi did was entirely normal. He was telling Red Bull "hey, your driver potentially committed an illegal maneuver and gained an unfair advantage, you can either voluntarily give the position back or the race stewards are going to investigate and possibly penalize you. Your choice."
It's not normal as you may not voluntarily give up position in a restart. E.g. ocon could not decide he wanted to start from second because he preferred the line there, for instance
One thing to note that no one really mentions is that if you are giving a position back then you normally slow down and move OFF of the racing line. Max didn’t.
I'm deadass at the point where I think the FIA should've disqualified both drivers or maybe even both teams. There is a fine line between mind games and not being sportsman like and I think Merc crossed that line. There is a fine line between being aggressive and just hoping the other guy gets out of the way and Max definitely crossed that line. Is the DSQ right in terms of the rules? No. But you have to throw the rule book at people sometimes. Formula 1 looked amateur last weekend, on ALL fronts.
@@mrebear9758 even better, I watched the race. And if I was Massi I would've thrown my hands up and say "you all are acting like twat bags, you're making a mockery of our sport. Both of you guys are getting DSQ'd, if you don't like it then start acting like adults" Edit: I'll edit mine so it'll actually make sense with the question you're asking. I feel like Hamilton winging about the Red Flag, and both (more specifically the second) incidents of a Mercades slowing down to gain some sort of advantage would warrant that because both make F1 look quite silly. I don't care if it's mind games or not, it doesn't mean it's good for the sport (and if I had my way Toto and ESPECIALLY Christian wouldn't be in the sport anymore). And this isn't including in the dumbest crash I've ever seen, because the FIA is squarely at fault for not informing Mercades and thus understand and even somewhat sympathize with Max. Doesn't make what he did much better, but I understand the frustration. And Hamilton would've had no excuse to not overtake if he knew the information because even when Max did get the DRS he basically had to give it right back anyways so it wouldn't have mattered. If the FIA properly informed Merc this all wouldn't have happened.
@@cbj4sc1 At this point in the season I don't even think Max's dirty driving is his fault, I think it's on the FIA for allowing it to happen all season. If they didn't want their races to be driven by twat bags they should have been penalising them for it for over half a year now, the driving we're currently getting is only happening because the drivers have nudged the limits and the FIA have decided that it's legal, instead of giving them the penalties they rightfully deserve.
The worst part for me is that the stewards are supposed to never take into account the sporting consequences of incidents, only the facts related directly to the incident. Not investigating Bottas because it made no difference to Verstappen’s race is a violation of this principle and it sets a precedent which says : the FIA will treat you differently upon the same regulations which seem to be identical for everyone in any situation but really aren’t. It was also why banning Grosjean because he influenced the championship was a disgrace of an explanation
If bottas would have received a penalty for that… Ocon would have been 3rd. The little teams get messed over in all of this, same like referee decisions in soccer. Frustrating
Another IMPORTANT thing regarding Bottas is he may have held P4 too, so in a case that would cause Leclerc in P4 (if they didn't pit) the possibility of getting into P2 ahead of Hamilton.
A major (but I don't think main) reason why I don't think we'll see Max try to take Lewis out is that one simply can't guarantee the outcome (just ask 1997 Schumacher). He would jeopardize his own race and might not even take Lewis out. And even if he tried and succeeded, he could still get penalized, with even a disqualification from the WDC not out of the question.
5:55 The use of the word slowly would also have to meet with the second part of the rule, 'which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. It wasn't dangerous to drive slowly, thus not a penalty.
There is a distinction between the two by the use of the word "or" meaning either driving slow, or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous can both land you a penalty. Replace the word or with the word and.... You would definitely be correct. But with this wording... I don't see that.
@@adenkyramud5005 read again, the prefixes are unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner... so in this case it would be - unnecessarily slowly which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed.
@@stevenlarratt3638 Yes, if you try your hardest to misread it... I mean, by the same logic I could take that line and say that _"which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed."_ can be split after _"at any time",_ and hey presto, I've just interpreted the rule as saying that anyone can be penalised for driving whilst the safety car is deployed... Obviously I'd be wrong, and so are you.
As much as I hope it doesn't, I think that the title fight in Abu Dhabi will end in a crash. If Lewis finds himself behind Max, he'll have to be extremely careful of a collision because, like you said, Max has less to lose from an incident that takes both drivers out. I'm not saying he'll take him out, he's just going to fight for every millimeter of space on the track, and it's going to be hard for Lewis to pass him. I don't think Max's plan is to crash with Lewis, but I honestly can't say the same for Red Bull as a team. I don't trust Horner or Marko, tbh.
My one issue with everyone's acceptance of Max's aggressive and over the line tactics is that it enables his continuing bad behavior. As long as he thinks that everyone is fine with all this, it will continue to happen, as he's stated. Good analysis as usual though.
Well you should ask any anti schumacher fan and he will explain to you how this is nothing new and always will be a thing. People think Lewis isnt like Max but dont want to be reminded of the times it got close for him. He will play dirty just like any other driver so now its against him people forget there is an uno card that has this sign:🔃
I dont think Max will crash, as there is already a precedent of 1997 where Michael was disqualified from championship for doing so to prevent Villenueve from winning. More, now that Masi has clearly noted it in the driver's notes. But irrespective of that note, we have that precedent to prevent a crash tactic that could lead to DSQ from the WDC
It's already been shown that Verstappen did not brake at 2.4G, and he was decelarating at a constant speed. In fact, Hamilton was hitting the throttle when he was behind verstappen just before he crashed into him. And for some reason the FIA now won't release any telemetry of the race. For the first time ever. Very curious....
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Hey CB. What are your thoughts on: keeping rhe rule that you can change tyres under a red flag, BUT you have to drop a certain amount of places on the restart?
Doesn't kill the idea of changing tyres, still probably better than under a yellow. And a shake up of grid order is usually a spicey turn of events, and potentially more overtakes on track...
I would suggest that any car tyre change at the red flag should mean the driver needs to go through the put lane in the next 5 laps
What about Max's practice start at the first restart?
The only way we can see a clean race is that if the stewards agree to take away the one( 1 ) of Max in Spa which really wasn't a race at all, when no one was allowed to overtake under a safety car. That would make them even on points and actual race wins with 8 a piece. Then, this will be a clean race...hopefully!
You forgot to mention for Abu Dhabi, Red Bull need both cars to finish in order to have a chance at getting the constructors. 1 driver can't make up 28 points.
I can always count on Chain Bear for a proper, objective analysis on F1 drama. Great video as usual!
This isn't objective at all tho. He doesn't even pretend to not give Max the benefit of the doubt constantly. This whole video is just defending everything Max does as just "racing hard".
@@austinobambino1360 you are proper deluded.
@@sidarora88 How? You can see how his language changes when he talks about Max's actions. He minimizes it. Re-watch the section on Max braking in front of Lewis and tell me Chainbear doesn't want to minimize the danger of the situation.
@@austinobambino1360 The only time he gives Max any benefit of the doubt is towards the end. And even then I feel that's stretching the meaning of "giving benefit of the doubt".
@@sidarora88 If they were racing F1 cars from just 20 years ago, Max would've killed someone by now. Look at Monza if you need a specific incident.
In NASCAR, after a red flag, they go back to yellow, behind the pace car, at which time, damaged cars in the pits can make repairs, and those on track can choose to pit and make repairs, change tyres etc. I wouldn’t hate seeing that here.
Another solution would be to close the pit lane if there is a barrier issue to see if it can be fixed quickly or not, and then open it for the pitstops
@@KillBillVaggeli13 Personally I believe the pit lane should be closed as soon as a Safety Car or VSC is called, also a VSC must last at least one lap and end at the same point for the leader.
I don't like the NASCAR rule. Fans pay to see as many cars in track as possible. They should be able to repair under a red flag IMO
wouldn't work at all. You pit far more often in nascar because the race is 300 laps. Cautions are thrown much more frequently and have a completely different strategic significance. Everybody gets bunched up every time, not that they aren't already even before the caution, and the pitstop is far more valuable since it is out of necessity and it doesn't cost that much. You can claw your way back from being last in a couple of laps if you have a car that could win the race. In formula 1 the only time you get to pit under a safety car is on the initial lap before the safety car queue assembles. You can't just nascar your way into fresh tires because pitting while in the queue drops you to the back of the field, and from there your chances of winning are drastically worse than if you did anything else.
The initial solution that would make sense is if you closed the pitlane until the safety car queue bunches up. This is fair but it creates a problem whereby actually damaged cars cannot leave the track and this is dangerous. Theoretically you could mandate that if a car enters the pitlane under a safety car, the pitlane exit is closed until the queue passes it, that would be more fair. Then if you need to get to the pits, you can, but only do so when you absolutely have to, and noone can game the system. I would apply the same rule to VSC. If you pit under VSC, you automatically have to serve a 10 second penalty at the pitstop, just to offset the time saved from cars going slowly.
In terms of red flag tire changes, I would simply give any car that wishes to change tires a drive through or a stop go penalty to be served at any time they wish after the restart. This means that any team that wants to change tires, still can, but it's no longer free. You can do it for strategic reasons or because you have a puncture or whatever, but you still have to take the time to drive through the pits during the actual race. Forcing it to take place within 3 laps I don't think is mandatory in this case because while these are given out as penalties, it makes sense that they be served when they are given, because a nature of a penalty is punishment, and letting the driver choose when to serve it can nullify the punishment aspect, but changing tires under a red flag isn't necessarily wrong or deserving of punishment, it simply needs to cost something to make it fair, hence why the driver could choose when to server it, so that his strategy remains somewhat uncompromised and he still has a say in the matter. It would essentially emulate a scenario where he would basically have to weave in a normal pitstop into the race like he should have done in the first place. It still isn't completely fair because he gets to basically loan fresh tires that he only needs to pay back for later and in a lot of cases this could be far more beneficial than staying on old ones, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting to do it for free altogether.
@@clansome 2008 flashbacks
You know there's been a really messed up race when even ChainBear has to start introducing paragraphs with hammerblow soundeffects.
The FIA was a complete joke and will probably screw up the last race too... just watch
I just hope the championship will be decided fairly on Sunday.
I dunno, I stopped watching Formula years ago and this race was really fun to watch, both the street track looking like Gran Turismo's Special Stage Route 11 instead of boring grassy stadium, and the action with two restarts from zero instead of endless dragging behind the pace car. Was also fun to see Kimi, Nando, Seba still racing.., Michi Schumacher looks much younger than I remember him tho. xD
@@henrik1743 WELP.
@@henrik1743 this aged really well
As most folks have said, you gave a really well-balanced perspective with way more *useful* context than all the other pundits (The Race, WTF1, Chequered Flag, etc.). Great job chainbear!
Agree, Chain Bear is usually giving a reasonable non-partisan explanation.
Great stuff.
You should try Aidan Milward if you like chainbear. He does a great job of remaining neutral
I completely agree. His insights needs a bigger production to match.
The Race is actually not that bad.
The rules and regulations for the 2021 season state: "From the time at which all teams Competitors have been sent the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message via the official messaging system until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA." Bottas' was at the low end of the delta, and Hamilton was at the high end of the delta allowing for this to happen. This was confirmed by Bottas' steering wheel and a radio message from the FIA. If Bottas was under his delta, then Red Bull would be protesting.
Thanks for clarifying.
Exactly. Thank you for pointing this out.
Yup Bottas is a pretty fair driver in general, what he did was all within the rule.
That's a great point, thanks.
Makes sense. If Lewis and Valtteri got the "We're double-stacking" message, they'd want to create as much space between them, just in case there was any problem with Lewis's stop.
Here after Abu Dhabi. Boy have you had your work cut out for you for 2 weeks! Can't wait to hear your take on that ;)
MY question is, if at a red flag restart Hamilton didn't have to keep 10 car-lengths, how much does he have to keep? Can a 2nd place driver come 30 seconds after leader on the grid?
If for example, Merc has 1-2 and Red Bull has 3-4, can one Red Bull hold 20 car lengths and another one another 20 car lengths? 30? It makes no sense to not have standard rule apply.
No. Driving unnecessarily slow is also forbidden.
This is what happens when sections in the rules are changed or new ones are added without looking at the whole thing. Standing red flag restarts is a new rule. Instead of just saying, "normal standing start rules apply, except: a b c d", they just wrote a new rule that covers some of the same stuff from standing start rule, but misses some other points. They edit or add a rule to fix a problem and they create another one at the same time.
The same crap approach happened in technical regulations, which brought us to this point where one needs DRS to overtake. 2022 is the first ground up rewriting of the chassis rules for decades.
@@Bahamuttiamat We can see, which is why it was penalized, right?
There was no such regulation in this instance, the fia cleared it up
There is a rule about the formation lap which says you have to keep the formation "as tight as possible". Although it may not apply to the red flag restart as Pandamasque pointed out.
F1 Barriers components are heavy and often need a truck to bring new components trackside, so a very heavy barrier impact in a breaking zone is going to cause red flag. It didn’t in the past as we didn’t use to scrupulously repair barriers to signed-off perfection during races. Just a weird thing to object to.
Hamilton's radio message made me chuckle. "The tire wall looks fiiiine!" As if he could judge that lying down in a car 20 meters away.
It's not everyday chainbear uploads, but when it happens ☺️☺️ oh boy it's worth the wait
hehe I don’t know whether I was supposed to find this video or not yet but I’m very glad I did!! I’ve been eagerly awaiting your thoughts on the mess at the weekend! thanks for all the effort you put into both your analysis and your video editing - your passion for the sport is obvious!
You a Patreon or somethin?
I don’t think you were. How did you find this?
You a bit early?
How did you comment 23hours earlier and it was uploaded a min ago... Gasp
RUclips has done some dumb things with unlisted videos recently. Such as listing them on the channel homepage.
I don't believe that Max will crash deliberately, but he's the sort of driver to make a dive and just think "fuck it, whatever happens, happens"
Something we enjoyed when Senna was doing it.
@@MrKiseki24 PERFECT ANSWER!.......
Agreed!!!
@@MrKiseki24 Maybe, but Senna admitted that his infamous 1990 crash into Prost was on purpose.
@@kariolm2579 Prost said it too. This case is like that all over again. The Professor Vs the Wonderkid. (Prost - Hamilton) (Senna - Verstappen) for people who have been watching f1 for years have seen all this before, the difference this time is the FIA President has not made rules up on the weekend. DQ for Senna not entering back on the same part of the track. People call it the Mafia now man back then it was a complete joke. This is history repeating and I can even put myself into this category, I though Senna was terrible until 1993 when he was magical in a car which was inferior to the Williams. Then he was gone and we knew he was special.
The fact that Bottas holding up Verstappen ked to Max being in first on the restart is, in Fernando Alonso's immortal words, "Karma."
Formation Laps have become a massive farce in the last year or two. Drivers take an absolute age to file onto the grid because they're all trying to actively mess with everyone around them. I'd like to see some increased regulation in this regard, to ensure that everyone files onto the grid in a reasonable time.
Introduce a mandatory wait time if the grid doesn't arrive within a listed time.
If the grid arrives late, then everyone will wait a certain amount of time before it starts so whatever tire temp advantage is reduced. If they arrive on time, then there is no wait time.
I'm glad you know we just see these post-race videos as the Chain Bear take :)
Someone tell me how Chain bear never has a bad take. I hope you take some downtime as well this off season Chain Bear, you’ve been entertaining us all season and deserve it
The voice of reason. Chain bear should be the only voice on social media
Been watching you since the start and just want to commend you on your balanced opinion and insight.
Your analysis and Jolyon Palmer's are the ones i look forward to most after a big talking point.
i literally had a headache after this race and had to take a nap. anyway, thanks for the explanations, hands down the best f1 channel on youtube. thanks, bear.
Eagerly waiting for a explanation video of what we saw today 😂
I think what we learned as well from that weekend is that Jeddah Circuit is absolutely unsuitable to hold a Grand Prix. What a shit show. Like half the race under safety car, 2 red flags, absolute carnage and that’s just the F1 race, not even taking F2 into account
8:08 tecnically the restart order should have been the same as the first red flag, because they didn't complete the lap;
So the "Deal", even if it made the race much more engaging, it was ridiculus. Still happy with the result having a gran finale at Abu Dhabi.
Yes I looked through the rules and this is what I thought too - there's just no power to do this. Surprisingly not even penalties can be applied here.
I get it makes some sense but you have rules for a reason. It doesn't appear anything like this in fact ever has happened before either.
@@jackw7714 I thought when a red flag was thrown, the countback went to the last completed lap of racing, which would have been the order behind the Safety Car. Everything else is wiped out. Like a red flag on Lap 1, the grid reforms as it would have started, moves in the first lap are ignored. The countback rule was how Fisichella beat Raikkonen in Brazil 2003, but only got the trophy 2 weeks later in Imola.
I agree with most points, very well put. the only thing i object to is not inspecting bottas slowing down under SC because it benefitted verstappen in the end. After the silverstone crash, the explanation for the small penalty was that only the offense itself is judged and not anything that follows from the offense, which would still make it necessary to investigate bottas in this case.
It’s simple: teams should be able to repair damage and change tires, but, critically, the new tire should not count for the second compound requirement for dry races. You know - safety first.
I agree with this as well. Then for safety purposes/some strategy the teams can change the tire but they don’t get the free pit stop. Would make for some more exiting races as well if it means 2 tire changes.
I.... really like this ...
Or just force anyone who has new tyres/front wing etc during a red flag to take a drive through, at a time of their choice, once the race resumes.
It wouldn't exactly balance with the time gained, but it would be a lot closer than the current situation.
That wouldn't really be fair either. What if say, you start on Soft and only have 1 set of Hards left, you plan a soft-hard strategy, and a red flag happens. You can either change tyres like everybody else in the pits, but then get disqualified because you don't follow tyre regulations and don't have another set of hards left, or you don't pit, restart the race on old softs, fall back a bit, and then immediately pit and end up effectively last after the pit stop phase. It could really screw teams over depending on how many tyre sets they have left.
fast pitstop point, last time, promise.
12:00 glad somebody else also noticed max's weaving, as you say it wasn't obvious, but confusing to anyonebehind who is already unsure if they are supposed to pass, when they don't want to pass at that point anyway. and good to see max did actually "brake test", i like lewis for his clean driving. i would think disable DRS for one lap, it's so obvious what the tactic will be.
When has Max demonstrated this season his willingness to race Lewis within the lines? It's always been I win or we crash.
"but that doesn't mean he'll cheat" at 14:35 bothers me. Is leaving the track deliberately to gain or retain a position like in the last two races not cheating? There is precedence! We all know it, that's why we're all talking about it and Masi even felt compelled to come out and warn about points deductions. Let's not pretend that wasn't aimed at Max and Redbull.
UPDATE: Masi warned the drivers for of points deduction, if one deliberately crashes into the other for the sake of championship position.
He does not have the balls to apply any sanction like that (even though, it should not be up to him but the stewards).
@@Le.K He said it to the media. I hope we don't get to the situation, where we have to actually check, if he has the balls to imply such a penalty
@@Le.K He is the link between the media and teh stewards. Notice how we never hear the stewards.
I would hope if the race ended with one of them taking the other off (or trying to) the culprit would be excluded from the championship as has happened once before in exactly this situation.
@@philspencelayh5464 I've been saying that with the way things have been and how aggressive we've seen the racing get, if there's a move that the stewards feel is overly aggressive enough that it basically causes the other driver to crash out, the offending driver will be hit with a 10 place grid drop post-race and a penalty of 1 point, with the team being hit with a penalty of 100 points and a major fine.
This will ensure that if someone crashes the other driver out, the offending driver cannot win the Drivers' championship, and their team cannot win the Constructors' Championship. And when teams are dealing with the a 7- or maybe even 8-digit hit to their finance... that should make it VERY clear that the FIA are not putting up with any shit.
Because Max knows Mercedes has been faster and the season is coming to a close, Max had to explore all the gray areas as much as possible and fight tooth and nail against Hamilton. Can't really blame him for that, he had to try and can't just gift it away. But I agree with you on 13:31
No, he got screwed by the second VSC.
No questions asked how HAM got DRS in the first place on Max while he could not follow in the second sector.
It's all fud and people brainwashed by the commentators.
Man, I can't wait for the final race video. Hope it is up soon
I 100% agree with you that Max wouldn't deliberately cause a double DNF.
However, I wonder what the odds are that this is the outcome of the race given what you mention in the video.
It all depends on where they sit after quali. Lewis knows that Max is willing to defend to the death because he cannot lose the position. If he defends hard and they lose equally, Max still wins. That's sort of the problem for Lewis. Once Lewis is in the lead, the race is over, because he'll pull away in the clean air, and Max can't cleanly pass Lewis back, bar some tire shenanigans. Lewis will have to pass on a straight and not in a turn, but with the faster car, that's where he'll want to do it anyway.
Alternatively, Lewis can intentionally take a bad pass attempt, force Max to penalty to defend it, then just camp in second and win with a 5 second time penalty. It's the shady way of doing it, but it's way easier and safer to bait Max into a penalty than to pass him clean.
@@marshallc6215 Given the race order, this is going to be an interesting one!!
yaaay glad to see you included RelappedF1
It wasn't just the race that had questionable elements - yet again we had drivers pissing about driving dangerously slowly during qualifying, and instances of dangerously slow running during free practice - none of which was really penalised. Every single driver who was running ridiculously slowly should have had a penalty - one which had actual consequences. Monetary penalities for either the team or driver don't ever satisfy that - given team budgets, and driver salaries (or 'Daddy's money where applicable), any financial penalty is meaningless (e.g. Mercedes were given a $25000 fine, but honestly does anyone believe that actually has any impact for a team spending $140m?). Given the number of drivers who keep doing this, grid penalties and time penalties wouldn't work either - after penalising half the grid, you'd just end up with the status quo. Therefore penalties should be applied in terms of championship point deductions - possibly combined with much harsher license point penalties. Start causing material damage to the constructors and drivers championship hopes, and I think everyone involved will quickly get their act together
This was the best video examining what happened in Jeddah
I think that restart position discussion would have received much less attention if the final order would have been the initial offer. But there first an offer of second place so it felt like the teams where making counter offers.
I think it is the cheesy language which seems very unprofessional.
Masi could have simply said, "Either Max can start behind Lewis, or I will refer it to Stewards. Let me know what you (RB) prefers?"
The red flag bit was made for situations like “Bowling with Bottas” earlier this year where basically everyone had damage.
Lets hope for a nice clean controversy free final race in Abu Dhabi...
With regards to the red flag rule, are we forgetting what happened at Baku this year? Rather a red flag and changing their tires than more cars' tires blowing up and hitting the walls at dangerous speed in Baku. I'm a Lando fan, but his comments on the red flag is kinda 1-sided. He hasn't benifited from it so far unlike Max and Lewis, just bc he hasn't benifited doesn't mean its a stupid rule.
maybe something different for stuff where tires explode or where their is actual damage but not free reign also for wets
Also many people say Max shouldn't have benifited him in the first red flag so some toxic Lewis fans moaned abt it, but if it was Lewis benifiting and Max losing out, then the toxic Max fans would have moand abt it as well.
@@I_AM_HYDRAA Like chainbear said it would take too long for the FIA to inspect all the cars to see if they can change tires or repair dmg and we would rather see racing then. I understand the sentiment, but there hasn't been red flags since after Baku 2017 until before Monza 2020 which means its usually rare for red flags to happen. Its only happend so often the last 2 year for some odd reason(with Max and Lewis crashing contributing to that tally).
@@stefandebeer9375 tbh toxic fans on both sides have pissed me off this year, but that's the internet for you. That said I was cross initially, but there again shit happens. James Vowles in the Merc Debrief on RUclips admitted that it was a risk, they rolled the dice and loss. You just have to take the rough with the smooth.
@@stefandebeer9375 no I mean obvious damage only a missing wing or maybe by repair just to remove debris that only has a bit hanging on. I mean only repairs you would do during a pitstip
Best video I’ve seen on the whole race. Well done.
Tldr version of the race
🟡🔴 vsc sc
Chain Bear and Well There's Your Problem bonus episode on F1 on the same day, let's go!!!
There was a point where Max again had to give the place back to Lewis and ended up taking it straight back but didn’t end up getting the same 25 second penalty that Lewis did years earlier so I’m not sure about what you were saying there but other than that great and impartial video
Half of this shenanigans between HAM and VER could have been avoided if Stewards issued penalties more often when they push each other out of the track. On the restart where Ocon got 2nd place, Lewis should have received a 5-second penalty too for forcing a driver out of the track. The same penalty that should have been issued against Verstappen in Brazil or Hamilton in Monza.
been waiting for this take.
Thanks for the video. On Bottas' slow entry into the pits, I think we do have a precedent established from the 2017 Bahrain GP, in which Lewis was penalized for holding up Danny Ric after Sainz collided with Stroll. Hamilton's stalling there seems less severe than Valterri's here, yet he was punished and Valterri was not. Consistency is not the FIA's strong point and it presumably cost Ocon a nice podium bonus. FIA needs to get its act together on both issues of safety and governance of on track action.
Not penalising Bottas is the exact point the stewards lost control of this race, for me.
It sent out the message that it was acceptable to race dirty, which no doubt encouraged Lewis to play games on that formation lap, and then Max to retaliate in frustration by cutting turn 2.
Hand Bottas a penalty (even just 5 seconds), and none of those other incidents happen.
There is no similarity in these two incidents.
When safety car comes out, you have time delta to follow until you catch up the safety car train. Once you catch safety car, you are not allowed to be 10 car length behind the next car.
Bottas has not caught up to safety car so can follow the delta. Lewis was going the fastest allowed by delta and Bottas was going the slowest allowed by delta.
RB knew what the rules were and didn't protest. Max was just either confused about the rules or stirring the pot.
Bahrain 2017 - Lewis was driving slowly approaching the speed limit line and after the speed limit line where you are not allowed to drive unnecessarily slowly entering or in the pit lane.
Hamilton was slow to get to the grid for the restart but again, we don't have the rules for restart. I think they need to fix that but as of know, Lewis can drive slower than Max unless it is deemed unnecessarily slow. (again grey are, need some clarification).
Oh man.. can't thank you enough for this. I don't know what I'd do without you.
I'm looking forward to your Abu Dhabi take!
Simple solution on the tire front. The compound can’t change and doesn’t count as the mandatory compound change pitstop. So red flags before the pitstops still mean another pitstop has to happen later in the race.
If the driver doesn’t have a spare set of the compound then the FIA checks for significant/potentially dangerous damage and only in that case may the compound be changed.
Funny thing is rules say that, you can change parts with same spec except tires can be different compound.
Maybe if a yellow turns into a red the race should restart in the order when the yellow came out, thus undoing the advantage of not pitting? And to be clear, I'm advocating a rule change here, not saying the rules shouldn't have been followed.
This is the comment I’ve been looking for lol. That makes the most sense
Just adding on: the current red flag rule is obviously designed for immediate red flag situations. With an immediate red flag, everyone can change tires/repair, but everyone is given the same track position that they had at the time of the incident. If you are moving from a yellow to red, the same idea should apply, everyone should restart in the position they were in at the time of the incident.
Max crashing into lewis sounds very radical and out of touch but we can't just pretend it's never happened before
My suggestion for red flag stoppages would be that you are allowed to change tires, but only to the same compound (or intermediate/rain tires).
OR you could change to whatever tyres, but they won’t count as a mandatory stop, therefore they will still need to box again but have the strategic leeway to decide. I think that would be best
@@ColHanko best solution possible for this scenario
@@ColHanko intresting
@@ColHanko I've seen this mistake a lot. The pitstop isn't mandatory. It's mandatory to drive on 2 compounds unless it's a wet race. Pit stops have never been mandatory
@@ColHanko There's no such thing as a mandatory stop though. Not unless you get the so-called 'meatball flag' and the race director ushers you into the pits, that is, but that's a whole different kind of pit stop we'd be talking about.
I think if there was predetermined penalty boxes off track for cars to do a stop and go away from the racing line, it would prevent an on track collision like we saw in Jeddah
You forgot one thing. For some reason, Hamilton pushed Max wide at turn 27 and wasn't investigated either. The whole race was a mess
Was just going to point that out!
Man, the video I was waiting for. Thanks for your content as always!
Apparently hearing from people at the race, they never actually repaired the barrier at turn 22.
Has anyone heard the same thing?
Greatest reviews on F1 .
thumbs up for including Deanna
Man, I love your videos and I @practicalengineering. Props for giving him a shoutout! Wish I could give you a double thumbs up on your video!
Totally correct on the "Masi deal or no deal". Take the offer or receive 5 second penalty. Seems like Micheal Masi did nothing wrong
Masi didn't do anything wrong, but wording was too cheese. He could have said, you give position back or stewards will decided.
You do have proper good analysis and explanatory skills, compliments
When we had the restart, meaning end of first red flag, and within a few corners, another red flag.. shouldn't all the positions had remained the same? There wasn't a lap completed from one red flag to the other, I always thought they used the positions of the last completed lap before the red flag was flown. (taking an example from Monaco '84) Can someone enlighten me?
oh, that's a good point
I think that applies only if the race is ended prematurely with a red flag? But if it’s restarted then the order is decided from the point the red flag was waved? I thought the same thing as you when I watched the race but looking at previous red flag incidents this seems to be the rule? I haven’t looked at the rule lol though so I may be wrong
I don't think Max is going into a race intending to double DNF, or race unfairly. However, we can all see that his idea of fair racing includes what he did at Brazil, his questioning of why he was penalised this time since he wasn't in Brazil is proof.
Is it deliberately causing a crash to take a line into a corner that goes off track but also intercepts a driver on a different line whose trajectory stays on track? The primary intent there is to intimidate the other driver into backing off, but if there is a crash I would say the driver who had the intent to go off track is at deliberate fault.
LOOOOOOL "We have one final race to get that nice, clean fight..." How'd that work out at Abu Dhabi? (I just watched your video on that farce, and your takes are always wonderfully sensible - so please keep it up, you're awesome!)
Ohh I'm ready for this super calm and collected, and totally not toxic comments section 😂
Edit: 13:16 ohhh that's where you're wrong ChainBear... that's EXACTLY what I wanna see.
Let's see if Lewis returns the favor and land on top of Max' head this time 😂
@@penusliski Spicy
my god man...you dealt with this complex issue like a boss
You did miss the part where Max let Lewis though again, and Hamilton slowed down and 100% intentionally ran Verstappen out at the last corner. Ok, Max was trying to pull the same move of letting Lewis go right before the DRS detection, but Hamilton deliberately went wide to push Verstappen out of the track. How is that any different from what Max did in T1?
I believe they also need to fix the missing rule of having no maximum distance between two cars during formation laps. Now that Hamilton showed everyone they can do this, what's preventing anyone from going insanely slow and having the cars on front wait forever before they start? It's silly.
I'm glad you put into words what I couldn't about the turn 1 incident that left Ocon in front, while everyone and their mother were complain that Masi was making deals
Well, we've seen a (kinda) clean fight between the two yesterday. So your prayers were heard.
But Masi f*cked it up once again. His communication (not his decissions) is so bad. Last week RB was the victim, this week Merc.
For the changing tyres under red flag rule, I’d like to see it to where whilst you can change tyres under the red flag, it doesn’t count towards your mandatory pit stop though that would need the rule to be completely reworded
I suppose the rule is written to say you have to use 2 tyre compounds during a race. Maybe as the tyre change is allowed for safety reasons, the rule could be that under a red flag you may change your tyres for another set of the same compound.
Thanks for such a good explanation! I was really confused about commentator fuming over Bottas holding down Max early on before pit stop and I didn't understand what he did, your graph really helped! Hoping the fastest one wins the final, and not some weird bureaucratic shenanigans.
Your post was prophetic
Masis offer to RedBull was no different than me offering my kid the option of her picking up her toys or me confiscating them.
On the topic of repairs and tire changes during a red flag, I personally think that any car that has had changes made during a red flag should start from the pit lane. It's completely fair to allow teams to repair damage, change tires, etc, but I dislike that it's effectively a get out of jail free card for strategy mistakes or driver errors. I didn't like Ferrari and Mercedes repairing their cars at Baku 2017, wasn't a massive fan of Gasly's free pitstop at Italy 2020 (though admittedly I am a Sainz fan), and the massive advantage Hamilton got at Imola and England this year has irked me. That said, I would want going between slicks, inters, and wets to be exempt, as the entire grid starting from the pitlane would be just a bit dull.
One possibility for the giving back position shenanegans would also be that you have to hand over the position at the point where you gained the initial advantage.
As usual, a sane analysis of the facts.
Thank you. In this week of childish noise, this is a clear, concise evaluation.
Everyone seems to forget about the VSC. That’s the reason, why Hamilton can even try to overtake Max at turn 1-2 with drs, cause the VSC started, when Hamilton was the closest to Max before sector 1, then they keep this distance cause VSC, and after sector 1 (where Max was always faster) they let them go. So the VSC was the reason why Hamilton can try overtake Max, that’s why Max was frustrated and defended “like a lion 🦁 “ 😅
I think, the VSC should be started and finishes at the same point, to no one gain advantages of it. So at least one lap of VSC.
Skipping over Hamilton driving into Ocon at T1 at the second restart
I agree with most of it, apart from masi negotiating with the teams. In my opinion there needs to be clearer rules around this cause it is essentially putting all the power in micheal masi and micheal masi alone to give a "good and fair" offer. I think it would be simpler if either Red Bull gave the position back without the hint from the Masi, or the stewards just gave them a penalty. It's not like the didnt deserve it in the first place. And that is the problem. If Masi negotiates with some teams and not others (cause he cant negotiate every decision) then some teams will arguably gain an advantage
In the famous words of Seb Vettel;
He braketested me!
Funny how Lewis has been involved in that line twice now, and both times he was the victim lol
Jason How was he the victim for both? With Vettel he was the car in front.
@@NickzAndMikzbecause he didn't brake check and then vettel rammed him?
That's why vettel got a major penalty
@@Jason-gq8fo Vettel got the penalty for the sideswipe, not for "ramming" Hamilton, because while the telemetry showed Hamilton didn't apply actual braking force, he did nonetheless let the car slow down unnaturally immediately after a blind corner. While I think it is entirely consistent with Hamilton's MO that he did it deliberately, unfortunately there's no such thing as telemetry when it comes to drivers' thought processes, so we'll never know. General point being that Vettel, or indeed any other driver without superhuman reaction times, was always going to hit Hamilton from behind because of Hamilton's slowdown, and Vettel (rightly) got the penalty for taking his very understandable frustrations out on Hamilton in an unsportsmanlike manner.
I'm still hung up on this one and it's already after fp2 on the next race
I bought f1 tv to watch this race and the next. What a time to tune in, holy hell
13:58 may I remind you of: "is this racing or ping pong? I have to avoid him otherwise we're going to crash". He has always been like that. I think Max is the only one to be that aggressive that often, pretty much expecting the other drivers to move out of the way. Of course he is not the only one to ever do it, and we also all know he can make incredible, clean overtakes, but almost every fight in recent races was at least questionable.
Here after Abu Dhabi hoping you do a video for that too!
People are getting way to hung up on the word "offer" in Massi's communication with Red Bull, but in reality what Massi did was entirely normal. He was telling Red Bull "hey, your driver potentially committed an illegal maneuver and gained an unfair advantage, you can either voluntarily give the position back or the race stewards are going to investigate and possibly penalize you. Your choice."
It's not normal as you may not voluntarily give up position in a restart. E.g. ocon could not decide he wanted to start from second because he preferred the line there, for instance
waited all week for this
Best analysis ever!
Just watched this. Lovely analysis. I have eager anticipation for your video into the unsatisfactory season finale haha
One thing to note that no one really mentions is that if you are giving a position back then you normally slow down and move OFF of the racing line. Max didn’t.
yeah the rbr flexy wing is also legal supposingly it passed all test
"If you no longer go for a crash... which is there... " :)
I'm deadass at the point where I think the FIA should've disqualified both drivers or maybe even both teams. There is a fine line between mind games and not being sportsman like and I think Merc crossed that line. There is a fine line between being aggressive and just hoping the other guy gets out of the way and Max definitely crossed that line. Is the DSQ right in terms of the rules? No. But you have to throw the rule book at people sometimes. Formula 1 looked amateur last weekend, on ALL fronts.
Did you watch the video? What did Hamilton or Mercedes do which warranted a DSQ?
@@mrebear9758 even better, I watched the race. And if I was Massi I would've thrown my hands up and say "you all are acting like twat bags, you're making a mockery of our sport. Both of you guys are getting DSQ'd, if you don't like it then start acting like adults"
Edit: I'll edit mine so it'll actually make sense with the question you're asking.
I feel like Hamilton winging about the Red Flag, and both (more specifically the second) incidents of a Mercades slowing down to gain some sort of advantage would warrant that because both make F1 look quite silly. I don't care if it's mind games or not, it doesn't mean it's good for the sport (and if I had my way Toto and ESPECIALLY Christian wouldn't be in the sport anymore).
And this isn't including in the dumbest crash I've ever seen, because the FIA is squarely at fault for not informing Mercades and thus understand and even somewhat sympathize with Max. Doesn't make what he did much better, but I understand the frustration. And Hamilton would've had no excuse to not overtake if he knew the information because even when Max did get the DRS he basically had to give it right back anyways so it wouldn't have mattered. If the FIA properly informed Merc this all wouldn't have happened.
@@cbj4sc1 I'll ask again. What did Hamilton or Mercedes do which warranted a DSQ?
@@cbj4sc1 At this point in the season I don't even think Max's dirty driving is his fault, I think it's on the FIA for allowing it to happen all season. If they didn't want their races to be driven by twat bags they should have been penalising them for it for over half a year now, the driving we're currently getting is only happening because the drivers have nudged the limits and the FIA have decided that it's legal, instead of giving them the penalties they rightfully deserve.
@@mrebear9758 I edited my comment to answer your question, because you edited yours to ask it :3
The worst part for me is that the stewards are supposed to never take into account the sporting consequences of incidents, only the facts related directly to the incident. Not investigating Bottas because it made no difference to Verstappen’s race is a violation of this principle and it sets a precedent which says : the FIA will treat you differently upon the same regulations which seem to be identical for everyone in any situation but really aren’t. It was also why banning Grosjean because he influenced the championship was a disgrace of an explanation
If bottas would have received a penalty for that… Ocon would have been 3rd. The little teams get messed over in all of this, same like referee decisions in soccer. Frustrating
Another IMPORTANT thing regarding Bottas is he may have held P4 too, so in a case that would cause Leclerc in P4 (if they didn't pit) the possibility of getting into P2 ahead of Hamilton.
I'm anxiously awaiting your Abu-Dhabi review.
A major (but I don't think main) reason why I don't think we'll see Max try to take Lewis out is that one simply can't guarantee the outcome (just ask 1997 Schumacher). He would jeopardize his own race and might not even take Lewis out. And even if he tried and succeeded, he could still get penalized, with even a disqualification from the WDC not out of the question.
5:55 The use of the word slowly would also have to meet with the second part of the rule, 'which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. It wasn't dangerous to drive slowly, thus not a penalty.
There is a distinction between the two by the use of the word "or" meaning either driving slow, or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous can both land you a penalty. Replace the word or with the word and.... You would definitely be correct. But with this wording... I don't see that.
@@adenkyramud5005 read again, the prefixes are unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner... so in this case it would be - unnecessarily slowly which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed.
@@stevenlarratt3638 Yes, if you try your hardest to misread it... I mean, by the same logic I could take that line and say that _"which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed."_ can be split after _"at any time",_ and hey presto, I've just interpreted the rule as saying that anyone can be penalised for driving whilst the safety car is deployed... Obviously I'd be wrong, and so are you.
@@adenkyramud5005 if it was true there would be a rule to the effect of a minimum speed similar to a max and min delta time to adhere to.
@@rjfaber1991 this is what was said from the stewards about it, so I am not incorrect then the stewards and you are...
As much as I hope it doesn't, I think that the title fight in Abu Dhabi will end in a crash. If Lewis finds himself behind Max, he'll have to be extremely careful of a collision because, like you said, Max has less to lose from an incident that takes both drivers out. I'm not saying he'll take him out, he's just going to fight for every millimeter of space on the track, and it's going to be hard for Lewis to pass him. I don't think Max's plan is to crash with Lewis, but I honestly can't say the same for Red Bull as a team. I don't trust Horner or Marko, tbh.
My one issue with everyone's acceptance of Max's aggressive and over the line tactics is that it enables his continuing bad behavior. As long as he thinks that everyone is fine with all this, it will continue to happen, as he's stated. Good analysis as usual though.
Well you should ask any anti schumacher fan and he will explain to you how this is nothing new and always will be a thing. People think Lewis isnt like Max but dont want to be reminded of the times it got close for him. He will play dirty just like any other driver so now its against him people forget there is an uno card that has this sign:🔃
I dont think Max will crash, as there is already a precedent of 1997 where Michael was disqualified from championship for doing so to prevent Villenueve from winning.
More, now that Masi has clearly noted it in the driver's notes. But irrespective of that note, we have that precedent to prevent a crash tactic that could lead to DSQ from the WDC
It's already been shown that Verstappen did not brake at 2.4G, and he was decelarating at a constant speed. In fact, Hamilton was hitting the throttle when he was behind verstappen just before he crashed into him. And for some reason the FIA now won't release any telemetry of the race. For the first time ever. Very curious....
The safety car pitstop shuffle happens all the time in Indycar and sometimes racing comes down to a bit of luck
Great analysis.