That problem is not addressed by banning these cards. It is a people problem not a card problem. They will continue to use the most powerful and unbalanced effects they can find, Rhystic and mystic are a prime example of this. Better tools need to be made to align player goals and players need to improve at managing these social situations. An app that can spit out the power level of your deck, more robust matchmaking software and tools provided by stores to navigate tense situations are possible avenues I can think of off the top of my head. This ban burns millions and fails to address what it is trying to as it is the incorrect method to accomplish it.
@@jackcois6077 nahh edh needs to be banned so that the format has a reasonable power ceiling so that people dont show up with cedh stuff to casual games
@@jeremy3169 No, one format should not die due to the actions of a minority of players that get addressed by talking. That approach is cowardly and foolish.
"Should we stop designing cards like this" I am surprised that a resounding "YES" is not the public consensus. Cards made "for formats" are, IMO, overwhelmingly likely to be malignant. I felt very awkward when the very first commander sets were coming out, and my opinion on them (and subsequent introduction of more and more exclusively EDH-oriented mechanics) has only soured with time. Sure, I like Monarch and the dynamics it introduces into EDH games, but if I could magically rewrite history (Commodore Guff style) to get rid of every single EDH-specific mechanic ever printed, and had to include Monarch in the process, I would.
@@reanamet1901 I think it’s hard to say because for every miss, there’s also a bunch of benign and interesting “for format” stuff. For example, I personally enjoyed Background a lot. And even though Nadu’s design was a flop, MH3 (Nadu included) as a whole changed up Modern quite a bit.
@reanamet1901 I'm pretty sure that the monarch mechanic was designed for Conspiracy, not for commander. It sees a lot of play in commander because nobody is drafting Conspiracy anymore and commander is one of the only popular formats that you can play them in.
whats your opinion on baldurs gate? i thought it was a great commander set specifically designed for a commander experience without the addition of format warping new cards
@@roelofftan8814 I really liked Baldur’s Gate. BMC, Archivist, and Displacer Kitten feel like the right level of power without seeming as overtuned as Orcish Bowmasters from LOTR. Gate support was also a clever include.
It's not just price. It's that Sol Ring is in more precons and Mana Crypt is not, and having one less easy mana card doesn't mean Sol Ring also needs to be banned. You can have one without the other and it can be fine. Sol Ring also costs mana to play, so not exactly the same.
My first take? Among all the cards in the set, Dockside was the most explosive and arguably the most needing of a casual ban. Few cards have the ability to explode games the way a single dockside extortionist can. Its mana efficient to an insane degree (even going mana positive very easily on an established table), difficult for most colors to interact with due to the ETB nature of its effect, combos off so many damn things its crazy and can carry its player to a win off a single cast. No other card in the history of magic can go as mana positive as it can with as little effort. For casual groups, its a needed ban. Nadu also comes close for different reasons but the same endpoint: Its value generation is absurd. HOWEVER. When looked at it from the angle of CEDH some these bans could be considered devastating for the format (get bent, Nadu, you needed to go!). Boros and Mono-red decks were absolutely gutted by these changes, and on the one hand while it does slow down the CEDH format as a whole a little bit, I think it unfortunately also has the side effect of completely decimating red's power in the CEDH format in ways that I probably can't even elaborate in a single comment. Maybe its time to instead start splitting the banlist for commander again into two sections: one for full bans (like Nadu) and one for bans that would ban them from casual games but would be allowed in the CEDH format. A restricted list, if you will. From the financial perspective, I'll offer this advice: DO NOT CONSIDER MTG CARDS A VIABLE INVESTMENT/FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT! You should hold onto magic cards because you like them, not because they have monetary value. The monetary value of the cards is purely speculative, and has no real basis in reality. Any magic card that is worth a lot of money could have the same happen, with a ban only being a single potential cause that could have it crater. There are far too many uncertainties with tcg cards, and just because its worth something right now doesn't mean it can't crater into obscurity for a number of reasons. TL/DR? Its complicated.
@@Magnet977 Good points here. I don’t really have much to add here, but I will say that, regarding Boros, I have come around on Winota getting harmed and think the bans actually help her quite a bit. Most other Boros ones though aren’t so lucky. And second, regarding MTG as investments-I agree. I think part of the reason why this is getting so much blowback is because this is the first time EDH players are experiencing something like this, unlike Modern where high-cost cards get banned all the time. It seems a lot of people forget the game is a GAME first and foremost.
@@theArcosa As someone who has a high power but not CEDH level Winota deck (if such a thing can exist haha) I am interested to see the tech that develops form this. I imagine she'll just go harder into stax as a possible result, though maybe we'll get some good human cards in the near future that could crack things open. Who knows? And let me say that I do feel bad for people who lost card value in all of this: I don't want to come off like a complete monster here. As someone who has the luxury of owning multiple of the banned cards in question (about a playset of each) I can only imagine how much it would hurt to even have lost the value of one of these cards. In exchange though, at least I can make jokes with my friends about how we have a new darksteel relic in the format that doubles as an expensive table coaster. You missed out man! Imagine the drinks you could have put on that thing.
Hey Dave! The backstory is that I’ve had a running joke for months (before the ban) that I should rip my Jeweled Lotus in half. Then, we saw your video and I got called on a bluff. I hope we don’t inspire anyone though 😅
Honestly the title pissed me off then I watched the video and it was extremely well thought out and nuanced. Amazing work using that RUclips clickbait algorithm to your favour. Some points I agree with some I disagree. I think Nadu and Dockside are great bans that improve format health and are a good decision to ban. But similar to the Prof I don't think mana crypt or jewelled lotus should be banned. I also think Dockside, Nadu and Jewelled Lotus should never have been printed. I disagree with your point on proxies because some of us cannot. My LGS's does not allow Proxies due to their affiliation with WOTC. Further, in many CEDH tournaments where these cards saw a lot of play you cannot proxy. It is a useful tool but it cannot fully address the financial issues involved in this card game and to suggest it does is flawed. My primary critique of the ban is that it burned millions of dollars that some relied upon to operate their business for insufficient reasons. It doesn't do anything to address pub stompers, that is a person issue not a card issue, no level of bans can address this problem only conversation and action from LGS owners can adequately address this. I don't think it significantly impacts the speed of commander games, it's not specific cards that make a fast deck, its overall deck design. Yes it is now harder to be super fast, but that change is not worth the millions of dollars lost to people and LGS's. It ultimately does not change enough to be worth the financial issues this ban causes. It's a ban that's incoherent, contradictory and burns millions of dollars for very little. Further, the goal of admonishing and reducing the play rate of fast mana at casual tables can be accomplished through avenues that don't cost as much as this. The creation of tools to better align player expectations in games is a great example of this. An AI app on your phone that can quickly scan the cards in your deck (Similar to what spell table uses) then spits out a power level for your deck would be much better than this ban and have a stronger long term positive effect. Overall, I don't think the ban of mana crypt and jewelled lotus were necessary, beneficial or the only option. The costs greatly outweigh the benefits making this a bad ban. I think WOTC's card design process and reprint policies are the core cause of these issues and that should be addressed. But this ban was naïve, harmful and a bad decision.
Thank you for your well thought out response! I don’t have much more to add. I really want to see something done about the reprint cadence, but I am not hopeful. You’re right that proxies are a contentious situation when it comes to sanctioned events. But, at the same time, a lot of larger third-party regional/national tourneys are proxy-friendly too.
@@theArcosa I agree with that as well, The only CEDH tournament I've had the privileged of playing in was a proxy friendly one. A wishful thought of mine is that WOTC allows some number of proxies in decks similarly to how some vintage tournaments have been run. Having a 10 proxy limit would greatly help the format and likely pull many more into it. It would also be an awesome way to test new cards before you commit to buying them. But so long as Hasbro is at the helm that would never happen. Keep up the good work, this content is great and I hope that at one day you rival the Prof.
I think that they should do a banlist 1-2 times a year and release and ban cards as necessary. Also cards like sol ring shouldn't be in every precon because it runs the risk of being banned.
surely those were proxies... why would you burn a card that still sells for 20€ or something like that?? even if it goes down to 5, you could still sell it
eventhough a bannlist is a message for the players, i hope mostly its a message for wizards. stop designing hyper staples to create reprint equity. design sets for commander like buldars gate and NOT commander masters
You make a lot of good points but I just wanna say, we need to have some perspective. Go take a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus to someone who doesn't play mtg and tell them how much you spent on it and watch their reaction. Spending this much money on a single card and chasing these uber rare special versions worth like a car payment is really sending the message to wotc that they can get away predatory tactics. A lot of people think them spending tons of money is "supporting the game" but really, it's greenlighting wotc to abuse you. I'm a long time edh player with a massive collection but there's no way I would ever have spent what it's worth now to get it, that would be so crazy, this game should not have these insane prices in the first place it's really ridiculous. EDH is a kitchen table format, it's not the pro tour or some big tournament thing, some people could buy a boat with the cash they blew on cards and then play proxied games with their friends while fishing or enjoying the weather. We really gotta slow it down I think before wotc evolves to be even more abusive to it's players.
I agree that this ban list is fine honestly, Jeweled Lotus will still sit at 40-60 dollars because it is played in legacy. Mana Crypt was banned in every other format way before this ban in my opinion I think it should be treated like the Moxes. I will say I am more of a casual player, but when I went to my Lgs and someone plays mono red and im playing a kraken tribal why should I only have to keep up removal for one player just in case they play something as powerful as Dockside and not just Mono Red any deck with red in it.
Great vid Arcosa! This is Reytromancer from Perfect Seven and I can say that there’s so still information being created and delivered so it’s too early for me to personally conclude on my thoughts on the bans. BUT I can say seeing the impacts and implications of the bans have been wild to say the least. Seeing how it might tumble CEDH is really shocking to hear. While I don’t play cEDH, my understanding is that these cards served as tools against RogSi, which didn’t rely on these cards. Now it might be a clear road for RogSi. The other thing (which is probably more important) is that there’s been a lot of nasty behavior from people. Hate to see the bad in our community highlighted when there’s so much good going on.
@@PerfectSevenMTG I heard about the harrassment the RC was receiving and it sickens me. I didn’t hear about it until after I was already editing, but I also don’t think those people are receptive to discussion anyway. RogSi does scare me and only time will tell where the meta goes. In other news, these bans advantage Stax (dead archetype lol) a lot, so we’ve been toying with Blood Moon this week.
I'm already sick of seeing competitive players say that these bans didn't affect casual play. Just because you lot never look outside of your niche corner of the format doesn't mean that your tiny corner is the entirety of the format.
@@ryanstewart5727 They absolutely do affect casual play by deterring bad actors. Salt will be a constant, but I hope this centralized ban will help mitigate feel-bad situations.
@@theArcosaas someone that doesnt have the money this is a big change in ballance within my group all my friends own at the very least own jeweled lotus and mana crypt That being said I feel sorry for the fact that they lost 100s of euros in card value I think some headsup would have been welcome So I agree with this statement
STOP BURNING THE CARDS PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD. I don't know if that was a clip of you or not but DESTROYING something that COULD find it's worth again in the future is SO heartbreaking.
@@Preaplanes sure, probably true if I were talking about something like... a chair. But cards from a card game where the game pieces have been known to gradually appreciate or even swing drastically upward in their value I think is just a little different. Shuko was worth pennies before Nadu, and then it jumped to 7$. Even if something big like that doesn't happen for the banned mana rocks doesn't mean they wont reach reserved list status at some point.
@@Rannulfus Or, as you've seen: DROP. Imagine if people stop playing the game. Think it'll be valuable as a knickknack when you're in your 70s when there are tens of thousands around that nobody cares to play? It's not investment. It's hoarding.
@@Preaplanes thankfully my 70s are about 40 years away. And 40 years is a long time, anything can happen. Its not even just about investing for me, its about not destroying game pieces. Replacing them might get expensive if they ever become relevant again, and I have a strong feeling they might become relevant again. But that's probably just me. At the very least you could potentially give them to someone else. Burning it seems like an "If I can't have it no one can" kinda move. I don't respect it.
Commander is a game to WIN!! It seems like you snowflakes would like to sit around a table and play till round 16 and while we are at it lets make every deck exactly the same power. With cards like these it allows you to get better at the game. Fi d ways to counter them not jhst pmease ba. These cards because we dont wa t to put the work in.
Their intent doesn't mean the changes don't affect cEDH. Just because the bans are aimed toward casual tables, doesn't mean there's an embargo on discussion about the competitive version of the format. cEDH is NOT a separate format from casual. 🤔
@@theArcosa oh really didnt know thst at all, lol. Don't be goofy. I know that but the way you were talking about it was like the RC gave any consideration to how it affected cedh. I have played commander for over two decades. I also wouldn't be so sure CEDH will continue to be part of casual commander.
@@jeremiahchamberlain4179you're telling someone with under 1k subs not to be goofy bc they said something you didnt like. The call is coming from inside the house friend.
@@boataccident1492 are you living in a different reality? The RC does not even slightly consider cedh in their decision making thems just facts. Nothing to do with me liking or disliking anything so i am not sure what the hell you are talking about at all.
@@DAsrada I will definitely miss Dockside loop decks, and using Mana Crypt as an outlet for Teferi/Displacer Kitten. But, we’re also looking into the return of Blood Moon!
@theArcosa I had planned a Thrasios and Vialsmasher deck that would have used Displacer Kitten with Dockside and a bunch of ramp spells and other effects, blinking Dockside over and over to power huge Exsanguinates and Doppelgangs.
Yeah dog AWFUL take. The only answer to this discussion is if you don’t like it don’t play it or with people that do. My cEDH decks have lost a significant amount of tempo and power in regards to these bans. Yes it’s a lateral loss of power that affects everyone equally so outside of the vacuum it doesn’t mean much. But inside a vacuum I wanted my decks to be able to perform turn 1 or turn 2 wins against other decks that were looking to do the same thing and these cards fueled that intrinsically. I have casual decks AND cEDH decks and depending on what the rest of the table is playing I pick accordingly. These cards shouldn’t be banned because bad actors are taking sub-cEDH decks that can explosively win on turn 4-5 to play against decks that are threatening a win around the turn 10 mark. The ONLY thing these bans have done is hurt high powered players and people that should be banned from the LGS. It does NOTHING to enhance the gameplay of casual pods that already weren’t playing with or against these cards.
@@theArcosa I would actually fully agree to this compromise. If Wizards wanted to officially sanction and take over for an all together different format then I would be more than happy to separate those ill intentioned players from pub stomping the unfortunate casuals that happened to let a bad actor into their pod for a night. I want to point out I DO want lower powered players to be able to also play and have fun and not worry about the randoms they choose to play with and to me this is the best solution for everyone.
@@tommynosocks6267 I think that it would be a good idea, maybe like a Type 1 and Type 2 situation. But my biggest concern is putting cEDH into a limbo between mass and fringe formats. Unlike PreDH, Oathbreaker, Canlander, Captain, and French, cEDH has the benefit of having a large playerbase. But, all these talks of splitting off are the same as making a new format.
Incorrect. These cards were EVERYWHERE in casual play. If you need them in your deck then it's YOUR responsibility to have that rule 0 discussion. Commander is a casual format so we can't use cEDH as the template for the ban list, that would literally destroy the format.
@@ryanstewart5727 you’re anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing to me. I have never seen these cards in casual. See how easy that was? Now you’re wrong. And the evidence does not back you. The RC didn’t say these cards were too prevalent or showing up in too many casual games they just didn’t like the affect it had ON casual games. The proof is right there in the Sol Ring clause. Not to mention this DIDN’T fix the issue. Cards that cost way more and provide way more explosive turns are still legal. Congratulations you pushed out mana vault just to get dunked on by Gaea’s cradle because now pub stompers need to slot even more expensive and even more unfair cards to continue being assholes. Nobody ever said cEDH should be the framework for bans I said this disproportionately hurts cEDH. And no. It’s not my responsibility to cheat in cards because you’re too much of a baby to ask someone in the pod to leave. I tell shitters to kick rocks all the time because their decks are too weak. And I tell spike to kick rocks too when we aren’t playing those decks. You are not obligated to play the game with anyone you don’t want to play with. And now with all that out of the way I’m just going to ignore it anyway and continue playing the cards I want. If that means casual Andy shows up to the LGS and sits alone for two hours before going home with zero games or he gets spiked by my 5K deck amd then quits the hobby then he can thank the RC for my disagreeable point of view. I swear the only people happy about these bans are the dudes that show up solo and don’t have a group they can play with so they get mad when they sit in on pods that didn’t want to play with pre-cons
There are dudes who literally show up to casual games with these cards and don’t stop. It’s a big problem.
That problem is not addressed by banning these cards. It is a people problem not a card problem. They will continue to use the most powerful and unbalanced effects they can find, Rhystic and mystic are a prime example of this. Better tools need to be made to align player goals and players need to improve at managing these social situations. An app that can spit out the power level of your deck, more robust matchmaking software and tools provided by stores to navigate tense situations are possible avenues I can think of off the top of my head.
This ban burns millions and fails to address what it is trying to as it is the incorrect method to accomplish it.
@@jackcois6077 nahh edh needs to be banned so that the format has a reasonable power ceiling so that people dont show up with cedh stuff to casual games
@@jeremy3169 No, one format should not die due to the actions of a minority of players that get addressed by talking. That approach is cowardly and foolish.
"Should we stop designing cards like this"
I am surprised that a resounding "YES" is not the public consensus. Cards made "for formats" are, IMO, overwhelmingly likely to be malignant. I felt very awkward when the very first commander sets were coming out, and my opinion on them (and subsequent introduction of more and more exclusively EDH-oriented mechanics) has only soured with time. Sure, I like Monarch and the dynamics it introduces into EDH games, but if I could magically rewrite history (Commodore Guff style) to get rid of every single EDH-specific mechanic ever printed, and had to include Monarch in the process, I would.
@@reanamet1901 I think it’s hard to say because for every miss, there’s also a bunch of benign and interesting “for format” stuff. For example, I personally enjoyed Background a lot. And even though Nadu’s design was a flop, MH3 (Nadu included) as a whole changed up Modern quite a bit.
@reanamet1901 I'm pretty sure that the monarch mechanic was designed for Conspiracy, not for commander. It sees a lot of play in commander because nobody is drafting Conspiracy anymore and commander is one of the only popular formats that you can play them in.
@@ryanstewart5727 i believe it was meant for both? since conspiracy was 4 player IIRC
whats your opinion on baldurs gate? i thought it was a great commander set specifically designed for a commander experience without the addition of format warping new cards
@@roelofftan8814 I really liked Baldur’s Gate. BMC, Archivist, and Displacer Kitten feel like the right level of power without seeming as overtuned as Orcish Bowmasters from LOTR. Gate support was also a clever include.
I agree! What a lovely take well put.
Congratulations for the calm and mindful arguments
May your channel grow and prosper
God Bless
@@JohanesTarata Thanks for the encouragement
It's not just price. It's that Sol Ring is in more precons and Mana Crypt is not, and having one less easy mana card doesn't mean Sol Ring also needs to be banned. You can have one without the other and it can be fine.
Sol Ring also costs mana to play, so not exactly the same.
My first take? Among all the cards in the set, Dockside was the most explosive and arguably the most needing of a casual ban. Few cards have the ability to explode games the way a single dockside extortionist can. Its mana efficient to an insane degree (even going mana positive very easily on an established table), difficult for most colors to interact with due to the ETB nature of its effect, combos off so many damn things its crazy and can carry its player to a win off a single cast. No other card in the history of magic can go as mana positive as it can with as little effort. For casual groups, its a needed ban. Nadu also comes close for different reasons but the same endpoint: Its value generation is absurd.
HOWEVER.
When looked at it from the angle of CEDH some these bans could be considered devastating for the format (get bent, Nadu, you needed to go!). Boros and Mono-red decks were absolutely gutted by these changes, and on the one hand while it does slow down the CEDH format as a whole a little bit, I think it unfortunately also has the side effect of completely decimating red's power in the CEDH format in ways that I probably can't even elaborate in a single comment. Maybe its time to instead start splitting the banlist for commander again into two sections: one for full bans (like Nadu) and one for bans that would ban them from casual games but would be allowed in the CEDH format. A restricted list, if you will.
From the financial perspective, I'll offer this advice: DO NOT CONSIDER MTG CARDS A VIABLE INVESTMENT/FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT! You should hold onto magic cards because you like them, not because they have monetary value. The monetary value of the cards is purely speculative, and has no real basis in reality. Any magic card that is worth a lot of money could have the same happen, with a ban only being a single potential cause that could have it crater. There are far too many uncertainties with tcg cards, and just because its worth something right now doesn't mean it can't crater into obscurity for a number of reasons.
TL/DR? Its complicated.
@@Magnet977 Good points here. I don’t really have much to add here, but I will say that, regarding Boros, I have come around on Winota getting harmed and think the bans actually help her quite a bit. Most other Boros ones though aren’t so lucky.
And second, regarding MTG as investments-I agree. I think part of the reason why this is getting so much blowback is because this is the first time EDH players are experiencing something like this, unlike Modern where high-cost cards get banned all the time. It seems a lot of people forget the game is a GAME first and foremost.
@@theArcosa As someone who has a high power but not CEDH level Winota deck (if such a thing can exist haha) I am interested to see the tech that develops form this. I imagine she'll just go harder into stax as a possible result, though maybe we'll get some good human cards in the near future that could crack things open. Who knows?
And let me say that I do feel bad for people who lost card value in all of this: I don't want to come off like a complete monster here. As someone who has the luxury of owning multiple of the banned cards in question (about a playset of each) I can only imagine how much it would hurt to even have lost the value of one of these cards.
In exchange though, at least I can make jokes with my friends about how we have a new darksteel relic in the format that doubles as an expensive table coaster. You missed out man! Imagine the drinks you could have put on that thing.
@@Magnet977 I saw a picture of a graded slab under a nice cold beverage
Haha wow, I didn't expect to see more like this!
Hey Dave!
The backstory is that I’ve had a running joke for months (before the ban) that I should rip my Jeweled Lotus in half. Then, we saw your video and I got called on a bluff. I hope we don’t inspire anyone though 😅
Honestly the title pissed me off then I watched the video and it was extremely well thought out and nuanced. Amazing work using that RUclips clickbait algorithm to your favour. Some points I agree with some I disagree. I think Nadu and Dockside are great bans that improve format health and are a good decision to ban. But similar to the Prof I don't think mana crypt or jewelled lotus should be banned. I also think Dockside, Nadu and Jewelled Lotus should never have been printed.
I disagree with your point on proxies because some of us cannot. My LGS's does not allow Proxies due to their affiliation with WOTC. Further, in many CEDH tournaments where these cards saw a lot of play you cannot proxy. It is a useful tool but it cannot fully address the financial issues involved in this card game and to suggest it does is flawed.
My primary critique of the ban is that it burned millions of dollars that some relied upon to operate their business for insufficient reasons. It doesn't do anything to address pub stompers, that is a person issue not a card issue, no level of bans can address this problem only conversation and action from LGS owners can adequately address this. I don't think it significantly impacts the speed of commander games, it's not specific cards that make a fast deck, its overall deck design. Yes it is now harder to be super fast, but that change is not worth the millions of dollars lost to people and LGS's. It ultimately does not change enough to be worth the financial issues this ban causes. It's a ban that's incoherent, contradictory and burns millions of dollars for very little.
Further, the goal of admonishing and reducing the play rate of fast mana at casual tables can be accomplished through avenues that don't cost as much as this. The creation of tools to better align player expectations in games is a great example of this. An AI app on your phone that can quickly scan the cards in your deck (Similar to what spell table uses) then spits out a power level for your deck would be much better than this ban and have a stronger long term positive effect.
Overall, I don't think the ban of mana crypt and jewelled lotus were necessary, beneficial or the only option. The costs greatly outweigh the benefits making this a bad ban.
I think WOTC's card design process and reprint policies are the core cause of these issues and that should be addressed. But this ban was naïve, harmful and a bad decision.
Thank you for your well thought out response! I don’t have much more to add. I really want to see something done about the reprint cadence, but I am not hopeful. You’re right that proxies are a contentious situation when it comes to sanctioned events. But, at the same time, a lot of larger third-party regional/national tourneys are proxy-friendly too.
@@theArcosa I agree with that as well, The only CEDH tournament I've had the privileged of playing in was a proxy friendly one. A wishful thought of mine is that WOTC allows some number of proxies in decks similarly to how some vintage tournaments have been run. Having a 10 proxy limit would greatly help the format and likely pull many more into it.
It would also be an awesome way to test new cards before you commit to buying them. But so long as Hasbro is at the helm that would never happen.
Keep up the good work, this content is great and I hope that at one day you rival the Prof.
@@jackcois6077 Thanks for the supportive words!
I think that they should do a banlist 1-2 times a year and release and ban cards as necessary. Also cards like sol ring shouldn't be in every precon because it runs the risk of being banned.
surely those were proxies... why would you burn a card that still sells for 20€ or something like that?? even if it goes down to 5, you could still sell it
Someone dared me to do it, and also I am deranged. Don’t worry, it’s all light-hearted 🧡
please RC never ban the one ring. i dont play blue, it's the closest thing i got to a mystic or rhystic
Well they can‘t do it anymore so your wish is granted 😂
@@mr.nobody6726 lmao this is true
Honestly i have no problem with study just because it place such a huge target on the person's back. I rathe never se glacial caverns.
Nobody at my LGS cares about the bannings, we just play whatever we want.
Buy fetches, shock lands, dual lands, etc. They won't get banned :v
eventhough a bannlist is a message for the players, i hope mostly its a message for wizards.
stop designing hyper staples to create reprint equity. design sets for commander like buldars gate and NOT commander masters
I looked the Wharf Casual list.
the other rules are just bad
You make a lot of good points but I just wanna say, we need to have some perspective. Go take a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus to someone who doesn't play mtg and tell them how much you spent on it and watch their reaction. Spending this much money on a single card and chasing these uber rare special versions worth like a car payment is really sending the message to wotc that they can get away predatory tactics. A lot of people think them spending tons of money is "supporting the game" but really, it's greenlighting wotc to abuse you.
I'm a long time edh player with a massive collection but there's no way I would ever have spent what it's worth now to get it, that would be so crazy, this game should not have these insane prices in the first place it's really ridiculous. EDH is a kitchen table format, it's not the pro tour or some big tournament thing, some people could buy a boat with the cash they blew on cards and then play proxied games with their friends while fishing or enjoying the weather. We really gotta slow it down I think before wotc evolves to be even more abusive to it's players.
I agree that this ban list is fine honestly, Jeweled Lotus will still sit at 40-60 dollars because it is played in legacy. Mana Crypt was banned in every other format way before this ban in my opinion I think it should be treated like the Moxes. I will say I am more of a casual player, but when I went to my Lgs and someone plays mono red and im playing a kraken tribal why should I only have to keep up removal for one player just in case they play something as powerful as Dockside and not just Mono Red any deck with red in it.
Based.
Sacrifice jeweled lotus. Gain respect of any grounded mtg player
Great vid Arcosa! This is Reytromancer from Perfect Seven and I can say that there’s so still information being created and delivered so it’s too early for me to personally conclude on my thoughts on the bans. BUT I can say seeing the impacts and implications of the bans have been wild to say the least. Seeing how it might tumble CEDH is really shocking to hear. While I don’t play cEDH, my understanding is that these cards served as tools against RogSi, which didn’t rely on these cards. Now it might be a clear road for RogSi. The other thing (which is probably more important) is that there’s been a lot of nasty behavior from people. Hate to see the bad in our community highlighted when there’s so much good going on.
@@PerfectSevenMTG I heard about the harrassment the RC was receiving and it sickens me. I didn’t hear about it until after I was already editing, but I also don’t think those people are receptive to discussion anyway. RogSi does scare me and only time will tell where the meta goes. In other news, these bans advantage Stax (dead archetype lol) a lot, so we’ve been toying with Blood Moon this week.
I'm already sick of seeing competitive players say that these bans didn't affect casual play. Just because you lot never look outside of your niche corner of the format doesn't mean that your tiny corner is the entirety of the format.
@@ryanstewart5727 They absolutely do affect casual play by deterring bad actors. Salt will be a constant, but I hope this centralized ban will help mitigate feel-bad situations.
@@theArcosaas someone that doesnt have the money this is a big change in ballance within my group all my friends own at the very least own jeweled lotus and mana crypt
That being said I feel sorry for the fact that they lost 100s of euros in card value I think some headsup would have been welcome
So I agree with this statement
STOP BURNING THE CARDS PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD. I don't know if that was a clip of you or not but DESTROYING something that COULD find it's worth again in the future is SO heartbreaking.
That's some genuine hoarder mentality my guy.
@@Preaplanes sure, probably true if I were talking about something like... a chair. But cards from a card game where the game pieces have been known to gradually appreciate or even swing drastically upward in their value I think is just a little different. Shuko was worth pennies before Nadu, and then it jumped to 7$. Even if something big like that doesn't happen for the banned mana rocks doesn't mean they wont reach reserved list status at some point.
@@Rannulfus Or, as you've seen: DROP.
Imagine if people stop playing the game. Think it'll be valuable as a knickknack when you're in your 70s when there are tens of thousands around that nobody cares to play?
It's not investment. It's hoarding.
@@Preaplanes thankfully my 70s are about 40 years away. And 40 years is a long time, anything can happen. Its not even just about investing for me, its about not destroying game pieces. Replacing them might get expensive if they ever become relevant again, and I have a strong feeling they might become relevant again. But that's probably just me. At the very least you could potentially give them to someone else. Burning it seems like an "If I can't have it no one can" kinda move. I don't respect it.
Let me burn my cards because it’s easier than creating new strategies….
@@WeaponX327 The new strategy won’t include Jeweled Lotus either way 😘
@@theArcosa I was being sarcastic because I don’t use any of what was banned and people are being dramatic
good video
They will continue banning from here. Rhystic study, smothering tithe etc.
Commander is a game to WIN!! It seems like you snowflakes would like to sit around a table and play till round 16 and while we are at it lets make every deck exactly the same power. With cards like these it allows you to get better at the game. Fi d ways to counter them not jhst pmease ba. These cards because we dont wa t to put the work in.
They did not consider cedh at apl they literally said so. You have no idea what you are talking about. They do n9t consider cedh.
Their intent doesn't mean the changes don't affect cEDH. Just because the bans are aimed toward casual tables, doesn't mean there's an embargo on discussion about the competitive version of the format. cEDH is NOT a separate format from casual. 🤔
@@theArcosa oh really didnt know thst at all, lol. Don't be goofy. I know that but the way you were talking about it was like the RC gave any consideration to how it affected cedh. I have played commander for over two decades. I also wouldn't be so sure CEDH will continue to be part of casual commander.
If cedh becomes its own format, it won't survive. @jeremiahchamberlain4179
@@jeremiahchamberlain4179you're telling someone with under 1k subs not to be goofy bc they said something you didnt like. The call is coming from inside the house friend.
@@boataccident1492 are you living in a different reality? The RC does not even slightly consider cedh in their decision making thems just facts. Nothing to do with me liking or disliking anything so i am not sure what the hell you are talking about at all.
Clickbaity title that tells people what to believe. Not watching all that
@@heeshka Thanks for stopping in 🥹
@@theArcosa youre welcome. Keep up the work
I completely disagree - I very much enjoyed using cards like those, and they made certain decks viable.
@@DAsrada I will definitely miss Dockside loop decks, and using Mana Crypt as an outlet for Teferi/Displacer Kitten. But, we’re also looking into the return of Blood Moon!
@theArcosa I had planned a Thrasios and Vialsmasher deck that would have used Displacer Kitten with Dockside and a bunch of ramp spells and other effects, blinking Dockside over and over to power huge Exsanguinates and Doppelgangs.
Yeah dog AWFUL take. The only answer to this discussion is if you don’t like it don’t play it or with people that do. My cEDH decks have lost a significant amount of tempo and power in regards to these bans. Yes it’s a lateral loss of power that affects everyone equally so outside of the vacuum it doesn’t mean much. But inside a vacuum I wanted my decks to be able to perform turn 1 or turn 2 wins against other decks that were looking to do the same thing and these cards fueled that intrinsically. I have casual decks AND cEDH decks and depending on what the rest of the table is playing I pick accordingly. These cards shouldn’t be banned because bad actors are taking sub-cEDH decks that can explosively win on turn 4-5 to play against decks that are threatening a win around the turn 10 mark. The ONLY thing these bans have done is hurt high powered players and people that should be banned from the LGS. It does NOTHING to enhance the gameplay of casual pods that already weren’t playing with or against these cards.
@@tommynosocks6267 Do you think that tEDH should have a separate banlist?
@@theArcosa I would actually fully agree to this compromise. If Wizards wanted to officially sanction and take over for an all together different format then I would be more than happy to separate those ill intentioned players from pub stomping the unfortunate casuals that happened to let a bad actor into their pod for a night. I want to point out I DO want lower powered players to be able to also play and have fun and not worry about the randoms they choose to play with and to me this is the best solution for everyone.
@@tommynosocks6267 I think that it would be a good idea, maybe like a Type 1 and Type 2 situation. But my biggest concern is putting cEDH into a limbo between mass and fringe formats. Unlike PreDH, Oathbreaker, Canlander, Captain, and French, cEDH has the benefit of having a large playerbase. But, all these talks of splitting off are the same as making a new format.
Incorrect. These cards were EVERYWHERE in casual play. If you need them in your deck then it's YOUR responsibility to have that rule 0 discussion. Commander is a casual format so we can't use cEDH as the template for the ban list, that would literally destroy the format.
@@ryanstewart5727 you’re anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing to me. I have never seen these cards in casual. See how easy that was? Now you’re wrong. And the evidence does not back you. The RC didn’t say these cards were too prevalent or showing up in too many casual games they just didn’t like the affect it had ON casual games. The proof is right there in the Sol Ring clause.
Not to mention this DIDN’T fix the issue. Cards that cost way more and provide way more explosive turns are still legal. Congratulations you pushed out mana vault just to get dunked on by Gaea’s cradle because now pub stompers need to slot even more expensive and even more unfair cards to continue being assholes.
Nobody ever said cEDH should be the framework for bans I said this disproportionately hurts cEDH.
And no. It’s not my responsibility to cheat in cards because you’re too much of a baby to ask someone in the pod to leave. I tell shitters to kick rocks all the time because their decks are too weak. And I tell spike to kick rocks too when we aren’t playing those decks. You are not obligated to play the game with anyone you don’t want to play with.
And now with all that out of the way I’m just going to ignore it anyway and continue playing the cards I want. If that means casual Andy shows up to the LGS and sits alone for two hours before going home with zero games or he gets spiked by my 5K deck amd then quits the hobby then he can thank the RC for my disagreeable point of view. I swear the only people happy about these bans are the dudes that show up solo and don’t have a group they can play with so they get mad when they sit in on pods that didn’t want to play with pre-cons
Also this video is trash cancel this channel we want our cards back! But not the bird!
@@josephmurphy497 Love ya ❤️