Please note that I have also supplemented this with an article where I go into alot more detail on some issues, especially how sufficient grace and the universal call relate to reprobation: shorturl.at/1a9je
you gotta get to work with saying st john damascene believed in unconditional election. if you can make him a defender of the filioque you can do this too!
So when it all comes down to it, it sounds like you (and maybe Aquinas) are saying that God ultimately decides who will be saved and who will be damned. I mean, yes his will is that all will be saved, but in not giving everyone efficacious grace, he knows with 100% certainty that the reprobate will choose to impede his sufficient grace, and therefore in effect, those he chooses to elect will go to Heaven, and everyone else will go to Hell, without acception, and he knows this. So why even try then? If our fate has already been determined before considering our merits, there's nothing we could possibly do, other than go along for the ride. As far as I am aware, Catholic morality dictates that we are responsible for what we don't do just as much as we are for what we do. For example, if I see a baby lying in a dumpster, and I pass it up instead of acting to save it, I am responsible for its death.
Im not sure I agree with all this either, but i think there is a misunderstanding either with me or you. the way i see it is God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. sufficient grace is efficacious if we don’t resist it with our freewill. in other words God doesn’t decide who receives efficacious grace we resist God grace making it loose effectiveness. if we resist grace God is not obligated to give us more grace or remove the impediment of our will making us reprobate. God predestines people conditionally based on if they will resist grace. in other words God before previewing merits has predestined all who don’t resist his Grace as being saved. this is a general declaration without knowing who will resist and who wont resist, without considering the merits of the individuals. as for those who do resist God’s grace then he looks at these individuals on case by case basis and does preview merits of the persons and determines weather or not to give them more grace, a kind of second chance or not making them reprobate. remember they already received sufficient without god previewing any merit for that grace there for if they reject it God is not unjust to not give them more. also if the person does receive extra grace despite resisting grace already he will merit it, but not in the sense that it is a reward for righteousness rather the merits would be things external to him such as christians and saints praying for him, and because he is cooperating with other graces that are not sufficient graces but are leading to God.
Original sin being the cause of people going to hell doesn’t make very much sense to me. Can you explain why Augustine believed this and if you hold to this theory and why? Some people think the reasons for hell are different. Some believe it’s due to demerits (mortal sin) not original sin. I honestly don’t know what the Church teaches on this.
People who die in original sin do NOT suffer anything neither the pain of the senses nor the worms of the conscience. In fact they will get a natural happiness that is different from the supernatural eternal contemplation of God which was the reason why they were created in the first place. They will get natural happiness but NOT supernatural happiness (beatific vision) because they died without sanctifying grace. The place where they will be can be called limbo and it can be said that they are in hell only if you use the term hell in a very broad sense that means simply anything except the beatific vision which is how the council of Florence uses it here. BUT Those who die in mortal sin go to hell where they will suffer the pain of loss, the worms of the conscience and the pain of the senses each proportionally and according to what he have done. This is the teaching of the Church. God bless
*All* predestination is heretical, including that derived from scripture and tradition, as any such passages are automatically contrary to God's justice and hence any "god" at all that'd have *that* heresy be taught, or has been taught to have that in His teachings, is automatically the very devil itself.
@torchanddog Nope, as that'd do nobody any good at all. Plus, numerous Papal stances within recent decades, as well as even basic common sense back me up, and disprove the whole claims of this person's channel from being remotely true. In short, therefore, he's worshipping a false god- not merely an idol either, but an evil god; a *literal* devil; as his "god" is completely unjust- as any predestination at all proves that the "god" involved is really a devil due to it being completely unjust *at best*.
@@imjustheretogrill9260 Yes I am a Catholic, and no, I will not do as you've suggested, as only a completely evil "god" or its agents would ever condemn the positons I've taken. In fact, Vatican 2 and the Catechism itself backs me up, and condemns you guys. As well as more importantly good solid common sense.
@@imjustheretogrill9260 Plus no possible way could any sort of just and thus good god ever have predestination at all, as either way that belief is in an unjust and thus false god- so it is really *you* who's embraced heretical positions, not I.
Please note that I have also supplemented this with an article where I go into alot more detail on some issues, especially how sufficient grace and the universal call relate to reprobation: shorturl.at/1a9je
Just saw you recently achieved 1 million views, congratulations! God bless your work.
Lol, this isn't going to be the last
Do we Catholics accept double predestination or not?
@@thesilentknight7078yes
@@thesilentknight7078Maybe watch his video: „Catholic Dogma: Double Predestination“ & you should get your answer.
I was predestined to watch this video.
Big fan of the non-impeccable consequent will
😂
Thank you, thank you, thank you! For clearing all this up. It opened my mind to a lot of things. God is so good to us!
you gotta get to work with saying st john damascene believed in unconditional election. if you can make him a defender of the filioque you can do this too!
Yup
All good things come to an end.
Are there any good books that talk about this?
So when it all comes down to it, it sounds like you (and maybe Aquinas) are saying that God ultimately decides who will be saved and who will be damned. I mean, yes his will is that all will be saved, but in not giving everyone efficacious grace, he knows with 100% certainty that the reprobate will choose to impede his sufficient grace, and therefore in effect, those he chooses to elect will go to Heaven, and everyone else will go to Hell, without acception, and he knows this. So why even try then? If our fate has already been determined before considering our merits, there's nothing we could possibly do, other than go along for the ride. As far as I am aware, Catholic morality dictates that we are responsible for what we don't do just as much as we are for what we do. For example, if I see a baby lying in a dumpster, and I pass it up instead of acting to save it, I am responsible for its death.
Im not sure I agree with all this either, but i think there is a misunderstanding either with me or you. the way i see it is God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. sufficient grace is efficacious if we don’t resist it with our freewill.
in other words God doesn’t decide who receives efficacious grace we resist God grace making it loose effectiveness. if we resist grace God is not obligated to give us more grace or remove the impediment of our will making us reprobate.
God predestines people conditionally based on if they will resist grace. in other words God before previewing merits has predestined all who don’t resist his Grace as being saved. this is a general declaration without knowing who will resist and who wont resist, without considering the merits of the individuals. as for those who do resist God’s grace then he looks at these individuals on case by case basis and does preview merits of the persons and determines weather or not to give them more grace, a kind of second chance or not making them reprobate. remember they already received sufficient without god previewing any merit for that grace there for if they reject it God is not unjust to not give them more. also if the person does receive extra grace despite resisting grace already he will merit it, but not in the sense that it is a reward for righteousness rather the merits would be things external to him such as christians and saints praying for him, and because he is cooperating with other graces that are not sufficient graces but are leading to God.
@@zekidan8284
Non-resistance to sufficient grace is itself a gift that God gives to the elect and not to the repro.
Original sin being the cause of people going to hell doesn’t make very much sense to me. Can you explain why Augustine believed this and if you hold to this theory and why? Some people think the reasons for hell are different. Some believe it’s due to demerits (mortal sin) not original sin. I honestly don’t know what the Church teaches on this.
People who die in original sin do NOT suffer anything neither the pain of the senses nor the worms of the conscience. In fact they will get a natural happiness that is different from the supernatural eternal contemplation of God which was the reason why they were created in the first place. They will get natural happiness but NOT supernatural happiness (beatific vision) because they died without sanctifying grace. The place where they will be can be called limbo and it can be said that they are in hell only if you use the term hell in a very broad sense that means simply anything except the beatific vision which is how the council of Florence uses it here. BUT Those who die in mortal sin go to hell where they will suffer the pain of loss, the worms of the conscience and the pain of the senses each proportionally and according to what he have done. This is the teaching of the Church. God bless
@@pedromoreira3552 yes true, it’s not due to anyone by nature. But God still has a universal salvific will
@@christian3692 It’s not guaranteed that they will get natural happiness, that’s only a speculation
@@ben27705is that dogma?
Have you tried reaching out to Redeemed Zoomer?
He has already made a live stream with him of like 2 hours and a half
*All* predestination is heretical, including that derived from scripture and tradition, as any such passages are automatically contrary to God's justice and hence any "god" at all that'd have *that* heresy be taught, or has been taught to have that in His teachings, is automatically the very devil itself.
You are not a Catholic bro.
@torchanddog Nope, as that'd do nobody any good at all.
Plus, numerous Papal stances within recent decades, as well as even basic common sense back me up, and disprove the whole claims of this person's channel from being remotely true.
In short, therefore, he's worshipping a false god- not merely an idol either, but an evil god; a *literal* devil; as his "god" is completely unjust- as any predestination at all proves that the "god" involved is really a devil due to it being completely unjust *at best*.
@@chissstardestroyerare you Catholic? If so, you need to talk to a good priest. You are advocating condemned positions.
@@imjustheretogrill9260 Yes I am a Catholic, and no, I will not do as you've suggested, as only a completely evil "god" or its agents would ever condemn the positons I've taken.
In fact, Vatican 2 and the Catechism itself backs me up, and condemns you guys. As well as more importantly good solid common sense.
@@imjustheretogrill9260 Plus no possible way could any sort of just and thus good god ever have predestination at all, as either way that belief is in an unjust and thus false god- so it is really *you* who's embraced heretical positions, not I.