Maximalist vs Minimalist Running Shoes | Opinions welcome!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Time for the great debate….not really….unless you want to! Maximalist versus minimalist running shoes, a fairly contested and hot topic within the running community. You can find many many opinions on this topic. I fall into the middle ground between the maximalist and minimalist running shoe debate. I do not believe you should run consistently nor at a fast pace in a minimalist running shoe set up, injury awaits. On the flip side, I think that the maximalist running shoe line up can hide weaknesses within one’s running gait or foot strike. On top of this entire discussion is the importance of building a stronger runner from the ground up. I’m beyond excited to get into a consistent grass walking/jogging routine once I’m back it. What is your opinion?
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In this daily running vlog, you will hear my thoughts on training for 5k running races up to ultra marathons. Also, we will discuss the best running shoes of 2019, and running shoes that are not working in the current calendar year. I'll do my best to help you find a running shoe that works best for your feet. How to find a running shoe is never easy, running shoe stores can be intimidating at times, so I'm here to help! Ask your running shoe questions in the comments.
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Summary:
1. Stack heights determines how much sole is in a shoe (millimeter)
2. Shoe will affect strides and gaits and foot strike
3. Shoe option depends on your weight, past injuries (if any), and your running surface
4. Minimalist vs Maximalist is depending on you. Be careful. Too much of anything is bad for you, be moderate.
Except for love. There cannot be too much love. Love your channel!
I think that minimalist running shoes benefit new younger runners the most. Especially when first starting out when their milage is low. It promotes good form and proper foot strike avoiding bad habits when they get older when the cumulative effects of bad form can catch up to them. I see a lot of runners in their 50s who love to run but struggle with joint problems due to life long running in cushioned shoes that mask their deficiencies in form. I do agree that transitioning to minimalist shoes should be done with extreme caution with older runners.
I did it with 48 and have never looked back. I had to stop running in my 30´s due to extreme knee pain/inflammation and only concentrated on cycling. when that started to cause me problems in my knees too I felt crushed and defeated, fearing that I couldn´t do performance sports anymore. then a friend of mine made a joke about running barefoot in an upcoming fun run of 6 km. I started running barefoot the very next day. and from that day on I haven´t had any knee pain again. I run approximately 40 km/week and for the first time in a very long time, I´m just having f#'ktons of fun as I had as a kid running on the beach where I grew up.
Look into Older Yet Faster by Keith Bateman
Did it from my very late 30s to now in my mid 40s... Not just running, but walking, standing, living. Changed my life. It's *never* too late but you have to accept that though the rest of you may well-trained and athletic, your feet are not. They are coddled, deformed, over-protected children that have not been participating in any run for as many years as you've worn traditional shoes, and the rest of your body has been picking up their slack. Begin from a beginner place, a hard thing to do, and you'll be fine.... and eventually strong and health from head to toe.
@@therealchickentender thats some real talk right there🎯
@@damdampapa
Ditto for me. Similar story.
Had knee issues in my late thirties from running in cushioned higher drop runners.
Fast forward to age 44 (now 46).
Started in Saucony Freedom 3s then after a year
switched over to the Reebok runfast pros (Shoes pictures up top in Seths vid) and Altra Escalante Race.
Had to run shorter distances (4-6km) when starting out with the Reebok’s but got back up to longer runs after calves strengthened...about three months.
Now run avg. 40 km a week (as much as 60 km).
No more knee issues.
5k PB in 22 mins and half marathon PB in 1h 46mins.
I run half marathon distances in the Reebok’s once/twice a month on avg.
Even bought 7 pair of the Reebok Pros cause doesn’t look like they’re bringing them back.
At one point I ran 3 days in a row...11k, 12k then 18 k.
Calves were only a little sore after that.
Love ground feel and can’t stand high stack shoes.
It’s all about proper form and enjoyment!!
I only see myself getting faster from here.
Cheers and have fun out there!
I was a good runner in younger days then later Shin splints stopped my running , then 10 years of competitive cycling only cause I couldn’t run however I tried Vibram 5 fingers 3 years ago and now I m running 65-80km a week did my first half marathon 1:47 and second 1:28 and aiming for 1:19 this year and I am 43 therefore for me I love minimalist shoes
amzazing
My motto: Variation and moderation of everything. Run in different shoes, with different stack heights and cushion. Train different stuff, run different paces, different lenghts and most importantly run on different material (asphalt, dirt, forest floor). Running orienteering is great as it's much more cushioned naturally by moss and earth.
Bit long for a motto 🤔
I was actually gonna suggest rotation of shoes as a topic to @Seth. I've read that it's good to mix things up for your foot so it works more to adapt to different conditions. But I've also seen comments here that said his injury was *because* he rotates between all different types of shoes, which I found interesting. Me? I have 7 different model shoes that I rotate between (although 2 of them are about to be retired...)
I agree with this, but you can't jump right into it either if you've been wearing the same shoe for forever. So many nuances in this topic it's hard to create a good argument
Agree with mixing it up. Different styles of shoes support or use different muscles and joints so mix it up to stop certain muscles getting lazy but also to protect joints. I overpronate so use support shoes, but work daily on building my foot strenght and flexibility and also run in barefoot shoes.
This guy needs more subscribers! What a great running channel
He's really likable, and very authentic, so I overlook his bad editing. However, in the long run if he really wants more subs he has to change that. No one cares how he gets about his city, the house, does shopping or opens p.o. boxes. Just say what you're about to say, and be done with it. Funnily enough, the very video I put that comment below is exactly how it's done.
phl0w as one of the first 3000 subs and a rusted on regular, it’s the mix of all those things you mention as irrelevant that sets Seth’s channel Apart. We do care about his family, how he gets around his city, the anticipation of what might be in the PO Box today and from where, and that he shares more than just his opinion and experience of running and shoes. It’s a running lifestyle vlog. There are hundreds of running tips vlogs out there, none of them have the heart and soul of this one. It’s different and that’s why we love it. The last three weeks have been so tough while he’s battled injury yet he’s managed to put up interesting content every day. If you’re new here, go hit the archive and find out what this channel is all about. I bet you’ll get a clearer perspective. Seek beauty, work hard, and love each other.
@@michaelormondrobinson that's why I watch this channel. I've been watching Seth for 2 years. Him filming his family and his daily life that's what makes Seth's Channel great. The running is a big bonus to. This is why it's called the daily vlog. So he is missing the whole point.
Michael says it all! We tune in to see and hear all that "mundane" daily stuff and family interaction as well as all the running stuff. This is Seth's style, not for everyone, subscribers like it.
I agree. The running is a bonus but the daily “real” material is what makes it authentic to me. I can relate way easier this way and mortalizes much of the sport.
Mate, l love Merrell barefoot shoes. Once you go minimal it’s so hard to wear anything else
Yes!! I was excited for this one! I have hokas 😅 Qod: I run in “normal” shoes almost all the time but when i am going on trails I have been using Hoka for past fee weeks and i love them. For me a good running shoe is a shoe that doesn’t make you think about it a lot during your runs, its just there doing its job... dont know if that made sense 😅🙏🏼
I'm all about building a rotation. A wide variety of shoe types introduces your body to different stresses, and as you gradually work them in and use them for specific runs, it better conditions your body overall and sets you up with better injury resistance. This also goes for training on multiple surfaces (road, trails, treadmill, grass, hills, etc). That's the point of exercise, you beat your body up and it rebuilds itself stronger. If you introduce variety you're certainly better off than, say, the person who's been buying the same exact shoes for the last ten years and only runs on the treadmill at the same settings every time. They're gonna hurt themselves as soon as they jump into something different, because they've trained their body to only deal with one single scenario.
Opposition au gouvernement et
🎯
Just providing feedback for others to use as they may - I just got back into running this year after many years off, I've always stayed active just never did races over the last 10 years. I'm 30 years old now and just finished my first half marathon over the weekend and I read a lot about zerodrop/minimalist shoes and added benefits from using them at the beginning of my training. That being said, I was training in the Brooks Cascadia 12 or 13 (10mm drop) trail shoe before I decided to take the plunge and bought the Merrell Trailglove 5 (0mm drop + minimalist shoe) and I slowly transitioned. Started out by just alternating days and using the Merrells on easy days (my mileage was low) and I was mainly running on trails/crushed gravel for most of my runs. I think the biggest thing people miss is that you can't just change to minimalist shoes without slowly transitioning to allow muscles/tendons a chance to strengthen naturally. Some things I experienced were increased tightness after runs in my Achilles and lower calves which I addressed by rolling frequently and stretching often. Eventually my body built up enough and that went away and my runs were normal.
Overall, I used the Merrell shoes from May - July for all my training + my half marathon without issue (the half was on a rail-trail of cinders/crushed stone). Like everything in running, I think it's 100% personal preference and dependent on the person and goals/ what you are training for etc. as you mentioned in the video.
Always enjoy these videos! Seth's enthusiasm for running is infectious. For me, I run exclusively in flat shoes (New Balance Minimus). I'm 61, 5'10", 160 lbs. and train only about 30 miles/week so the mileage is not high by any standard. Seth's point that most of us have grown up wearing shoes is completely accurate. That's why transitioning to flat shoes takes a LONG time --- two years in my case, but what's the hurry? Minimalist shoes shift stresses from joints to tendons and muscles (which are better equipped to deal with impact stresses).
One issue that is rarely discussed is ankle stability in shoes with a higher stack height. I have been running in minimalist shoes for several years now, on a combination of pavement and grassy trails. During that time, I have NEVER turned an ankle. Not the case with normal shoes or maximal shoes. Before transitioning to minimalist shoes, this would happen to me every few months on both trails and pavement. Occasionally, I would get hurt seriously enough to miss several days. One time, i had to take two weeks off to recover. Even on pavement there are plenty of obstacles (broken pavement, curbs, rain-slickened sewer caps, etc).
So, yeah I'm older and maybe not exactly the embodiment of athletic grace. Just sayin' that minimalist shoes have been of real benefit for me.
I think most runners will agree with your vision Seth. Variation in shoes works for me.
Great idea to run barefoot/minimalist shoes on fields sometimes.
To avoid injuries I would run in various stack heights and offset. I walk around the house, do squat and strength training barefoot. Imo your explanation pretty much covered it all.
Regardless of which shoe you choose to run in, you need to strengthen your feet. Yes walking around the house barefoot is good, but you also need to do more as you leave the house. Make your daily shoe a minimalist shoe (vibram, xero sandals, vivobarefoot etc.) to help you build strength in feet. Running in cushioned shoes causes you to strike the ground with much more force than if you ran barefoot or in minimalist shoes - if in doubt try it - run on concrete and see how quickly you pick up your feet when you run on concrete barefoot compared to cushioned shoes. Also to strengthen feet do not jog on grass, job on concrete. Jogging on grass is similar to running in cushioned shoes. You strike the ground harder because the grass acts as a cushion. Striking the ground with less force will lead to less injury.
Interested conversation. Having many issues due to serving in the Army for 24 yrs, I prefer to train in Altra's. Love them, and I would not trade them to anything else. I have completed 100 miles, several 100's, 50 miles, etc...
I agree this guy is awesome, and definitely needs more subscribers.
Awesome topic. My concerns always are the surfaces, if you in Africa running on trails, vs our paved network with potholes, glass, snow, etc. so I think our environment drives our footwear. Totally agree with barefoot in office, home, tracks and the playing field for striders. At home I chase my cat, pounce and tiptoe stuff, work (or play?) in barefoot or stocking feet activities wherever I can....
Thank you Seth you are the best !!!
First j have never runed in a minimalist shoe but I have tried to run completely bear foot and in my opinion maximalist are bad for the foot but I also don't think that you can race or run always bear foot or in minimalist running shoes so I think that minimalist running shoes are good for easy days but most of the time and in races you should go in the middle which for me is about less than 25 mm but ideally I love about 20 mm
Currently running in Saucony freedom iso which is amazing but wasn't felxible enough for me so I catted the out sole a little bit and now it is perfect and my next shoe In the rader is the Altra escelante which is hard to get in my cauntry (Israel)
Beautiful, thanks for the update on your shoes 👍🏻👍🏻
Loved your answer Seth! I’d say the absolute best shoe out there is the one that you actually run in! So much of this is preference and if a Kinvara or an Epic React or a Clifton will make you keep running then do it! Always great content from your channel!
I casually ran short distances a decade ago when I was in college, in conventional high stack running shoes. I was never really able to get into it though because I always ended up with weird hip or knee pain after just a few miles. Eventually I gave up (though I did eventually begin to casually bicycle, which kept me in decent cardiovascular shape).
Fast forward a decade and one pandemic later, and I lost my bicycle commute and the low-effort exercise I had built into my day. I started walking regularly which slowly transitioned into running a couple of times a week. This time, instead of getting conventional running shoes, I tried a pair of Whitin minimalist shoes for a few months and liked them. No hip or knee pain this time around when I'm done with a long-for-me ~5k run.
And I recently started wearing a pair of Vibram V-Run shoes, and they're really enjoyable for running. The gentle running I'm kind of forced to do in them just feels good. Taking it slow is important though - I did a long (for me) 3.5 mile run in them in my first week and felt great all day, and then my calves had crazy DOMS for four days afterwards. I had no soreness at all after my last ~2 mile run though, so I think the worst of the transition is over. I think I'll be sticking with the Vibrams for running, and using the Whitins for casual outings, because they look far less silly.
I love barefoot running and minimalistic shoes. Done quite a few miles having nothing under my foot. I feel it improved my running stride significantly, but that is that. Comming now from a knee injury, i must say, i see now minimalistic running as a form of training, it helps with your inner core musles and such, but I would be careful going too long or too hard in them. Nice and easy is what it is all about.
Ooh merch! Love it! Got to get some.
Great to see that most people responding have a balanced perspective and see the value of barefoot for foot strength. Not sure if many have mentioned form?
Personally I'm pretty much 100% minimalist, most I'll wear are the Altra Escalante Racer which isn't really minimalist, but it gives the feet a rest.
Started taking barefoot seriously a year ago and the biggest benefit I could say is that running form benefits greatly. I'm sure you've all hear lots of anecdotes but for me I stopped getting shin splints and started recovering a lot better from workouts. I'd still do intense and long sessions in Altras, but some easy and recovery days barefoot.
I know it's not for everyone and as someone mentioned it takes some work to overcome a lifetime of weak feet etc, but I'd argue that the benefits are there for everyone if some to some degree. I personally believe only running in thick or stiff shoes will result in weaker feet and degeneration of form. That's if you do it 100% of the time.
Everyone should do what's right for them, but don't dismiss it out of hand, a balanced approach is very valuable.
BTW just for kicks ruclips.net/video/erorsuyJKiQ/видео.html
You make some good and valid points. I run in hoka clifton 5 and the Altra Olympus 3 for easy days, long runs and rehab situation like I am at the moment. I run in the Saucony kinvara 10 for shorter or workout days. I am barefoot around the house all the time, and I have to wear steel toed work boots all day for work. I think the cushion and impact protection has more to do with it than stack height. Don't get me wrong stack height has a lot to do with too, but I can run a 20km run in a hoka Hupana which has the same stack height as a Kinvara 10 and my feet feel good after the run, but in the kinvara 10 in the same exact run my feet feel beaten up afterwards. So my argument or point is this, stap two bricks to your feet and run with them and you would still have the stack height but not the impact protection. I raise this point in relation to the Saucony Kinvara range for 3 to 10, and even the nike zoom elite range to some degree. The cushion of the shoes have change from each model and have change the distance I can use these shoes for. Early kinvara's 3 to 6 I could run 20km in them ok, but the 7 to 10 left my feet beaten up. The stack height and heel drop haven't change only the materials composition. Food for thought.
Run in cushioned, zoom fly 3 and just ordered Bondi 6 ......walk in minimalist, like Sanuk. P.s. I only run around our lake 1.7 miles 6 of 7 days & I’m 59. P.ss about 10 years ago I got back into running and the barefoot craze was in so I ran in the lightest, least cushioned shoes I could find, usually some kind of racing shoe. I also had the toe shoes for walking around the lake. 2 knee surgeries later and thanks to you tube I know better.
Ok I run about 10-15-% of miles in 5 fingers. But mix it up. My biggest stack is 25 but might go up to 28.
I believe running to much in high stack height will hide problems. I find 5 fingers work best on hard surface and great for up to 10 miles. But mixing it up will make us stronger.
My testimony barefoot foot running saved my running
Fair opinion. My personal take: starting out in minimalist shoes myself at nearly 40yrs old, I can't believe some people in my position would enter 5k+ races after only 4-8 wks training. I was still taking 2+ day rest days at that point after pretty short runs (dealing with DOMS in my legs) Point is, I think it could only be done with cushioned shoes, and I believe most people don't have the patience for them. The biggest turn-off for me with the idea of maximalist shoes is the simplistic idea that running is inherently risky and that we need "gear" and constant innovations in shoe tech to protect us from injury. Minimalist running has reinforced in me a feeling that running is natural and fun, and having proper form and that means I can run in nearly anything (although I'll never touch most minimalist shoes on the market because they are so ugly lol). I see the benefit to maximalist shoes though, and I think you can run faster for longer in them.
New runner here. Went from ASICS Gel Nimbus to Hoka Bondi 6.....what a HUGE change. Both are well cushioned (Hoka just a tad better) but that’s the only similarity. I think a key point is just learning how to run more efficiently in each particular shoe. If you change your class of shoe you will most certainly need to make small changes with your strike, gate and pace.
Welcome to running!!
Seth James DeMoor thanks buddy. Thanks for your good info and have a great day. 🙏
Variation is the key for me, Zoom Fly Flyknit, Adios 4, Fastwitch 8, Scott supertrac RC for trail. I would like to try the Hoka Carbon X at some point. I also have an altra for recovery runs.
Midsole!
You know I’m all about the midsole. In particular in the area of the forefoot. So many great shoes just have nothing under there so I can’t wear em. I switched to Hoka’s after a plantar plate tear and this old boy has not regretted for a second. Clifton one reissue for tempo/ threshold Bondi B reissue and the Bondi 6 for long road runs and recovery. I use the Clifton 5 as my walk around shoe. I use the NB Beacon for track workouts and full throttle work. BUT I’m getting myself the Carbon X and the rockets for racing.
I love my Saguaro minimalist shoes. I'm 43. It's so much FUN running in them, especially off road. You feel like a kid, dodging all the obstacles, stones, tree routes. Caution is essential though. If you're new to them, build slowly. Enjoy!
Welll, I used Hoka Clifton5, maximalist shoes, for 500km without major problems...then I wanted to test more responsive shoes, so I bought the Hoka Elvon, drop 4mm. I started to have calfs problems, like I felt 'em contracted after run, and after a while I started to feel pain in both ankles...I didn't do more than 100km with Helevon, but now I bought the PEG 35 Turbo (drop 10mm), and I hope to solve the calfs and ankles problems. So, for me I think minimalist shoes don't work...
I'm of the opinion that it is a good idea to run in both, the minimalist shoes to strengthen feet, tendons, ligaments, and promote good form, then to mix in maximalist shoes to give the body a break and let the adaptions occur. That being said I still haven't had the funds available to introduce any maximalist shoes into my rotation, my shoes are more in the traditional middle ground. I would include the amount of flexibility in the shoe in the minimalist vs maximalist categorization, my Altra One 2.5s is super flexible and can in ways be considered minimalist even with a 23mm stack height.
Agreed. Though, I personally still consider Altra One's (particularly v3, of which I have two pairs) to be closer to the maximal end of the spectrum. I run most of my mileage in Merrell Vapor and Trail Gloves, and do my recovery miles in my Altra One's. Sometimes, I'll do the exact opposite, though. The counter-intuitive thing is the only times I've gotten injured was when I've overdone it in worn out, thicker shoes (after which even switching to minimal shoes won't allow me to heal). And, my barefoot shoes last hundreds, if not thousands, of miles longer. And, I run daily, mostly hilly, uneven pavement, in all weather conditions, with plenty of sprinting, too. I would say, even more important than shoe type, surface type, even more important than footstrike, or stride type, is running cadence/stride frequency. Master optimal cadence (~180) to reduce unnatural impact (all other things fall into place thereafter), and prevent injury. I will say mastering cadence seems to be more automatic in barefoot shoes. And, as always be cautious when increasing training volume, and intensity.
I've never tried the v3, but I've read in reviews that it is stiffer and less flexible then its predecessors, so that makes sense!
IMO, the version got a bad rap, and was replaced by the likes escalante and kayenta. I've ran in the 1.5's, which were amazingly comfy, but not minimal enough to be a racing flat, and not quite durable enough as trainer. V3's on the other hand are incredibly versatile. So, I hear an Atra athlete placed first in a mountain 50miler race. I've gotten well over 800 miles in a pair, so I snagged a 2nd pair for $20 on sale. Best bang for buck I've gotten in a long time.
@@aftabbukhari I will probably snag some V3's if I find them at anywhere near that price point, my size is usually unavailable before shoes hit that price level though. I've bought all my shoes on sale, and would probably never have ran in the One 2.5 if I could buy whatever I wanted. I would like to try both some more minimal, and some more maximal shoes, but I really like the middle ground as well.
What a coincidence! I've been running regularly for the last... probably 8-9 years now, and last week was my first time buying a maximalist shoe. It is the skechers gorun maxroad 3 ultra (I hate it when shoe companies come up with these long names for a shoe).
All this time my concern about maximalist shoes is exactly like what you said, seth! They are usually too comfortable and too soft, I worry that they will spoil my feet, make them lazy, do not build strength, and hide my weaknesses because they feel comfortable however I ran (at least from multiple tests in the stores all this time). in addition, they are heavy and clunky. However recently I realize that I do need these maximalist shoes at least for recovery, long slow runs, running in low heart rate zone, etc. You see, trying to keep my heart rate low in long runs in a typical training shoe sometimes hard when your feet starts to feel the pounding from the ground, especially on concrete surfaces.
I'm glad I pick the skechers. For a start, they are NOT as soft as hoka. quite firm, actually, so you can still build strength and keep the momentum of running, avoiding the softness that makes your strides lazy. Second, they are 4mm drop and is quite flexible in the forefoot (not as rigid as most hokas), so the best way to run in it is still by midfoot strike. They're not really feel good when I heelstrike. This way I'm still 'warned' to watch my form. They feel best in slow-moderate pace. So perfect for recovery and slow running.
Lastly, they are still light. 8,6oz for a size 9, so still in the same weight class of a lot of typical trainer.
Ok, I don't want to sound like advertising this shoe too much.
After a week, I feel like the benefit of max shoes is for particular purposes. Recovery, slow-long runs, and avoid too much stress for your feet in your training cycle. Their benefit is that your feet will still feel fresh after your run, because they are protecting you from the poundings of the ground. Use them in rotation with your regular trainer and fast shoes, and you'll see the benefit. But I wouldn't advise to have max shoe as your ONLY running shoe.
just my two cents..
Midsole!
QD: So far I guess I can consider myself a maximalist guy, I started running overweight, so it was the best choice for me, and I never really stopped. Looks like you have your merchandise store up and running Seth, congrats! I will order my shirt soon!
Honestly, I think the majority of runners would agree with you Seth. The "midfield" thinkers that use both when feeling the need to, and see advantages in A or B will usually remain fairly silent. Defenders of "only A" or "only B" are exceptions that use their voice because they feel the need to convince people for some unknown reason. And because they use their voice they seem large in numbers.
Same with the vegan movement. It is "against". It is not A or B, it is a question of using A and B in the right setting, at the right time, because of your own life and background... Like eating bacon for breakfast and a light salad before hitting the bed. Nice video Seth!
Nice lef, you summarized all my thoughts in a concise way thank you
I think that you should not be pushing your opinion so much about minimalist running shoes. You do not have the experience or have done extensive research about this topic. The point of minimalist running shoes is to build strength from the stress of regular running as the body was naturally meant to do. The human body is not made to be babied by highly cushioned running shoes. Running in maximalists running shoes is asking for injuries. It encourages your body to become weaker. I trained in minimalist shoes my whole life and have never had a stress related injuries due to the fact that running in minimalist shoes encourages the building in strength of tendons and bones. I have run up to 16 miles in vibram 5 fingers and I have had no problems. I do think that you should wear a little cushion for workouts and races, but I do think that it is very important to train in minimalist shoes to build foot and leg strength and train your body to land softer so when you race you are more efficient and less likely to injure yourself.
I agree 100%
In fairness, it is his channel and he declared his statements as opinion, not fact.
Mark Sharafinski I think he should have his opinion but he should not be talking down upon people who run in minimalist shoes and calling it not a good decision.
Mark Sharafinski I believe that if he has as many subscribers as he has he has a large influence over other runners especially high schoolers. With this amount of influence I think he should lean more towards facts not as much opinion. I also think that if he has had as many stress fractures as he has had that he does not have any business giving his opinion over minimalist shoes which he has never run in.
Baylor Picard I hear you - I run a lot of miles in minimalist (or no) shoes. I just didn’t perceive his opinion as an attack on minimalist running. A bit uninformed, perhaps, but not “talking down upon people” as you took it.
I'm a big guy and I love the Altra Lone Peaks, had several, but now have been trail running with Altra Olympus 3s, really cushioned, miles just fly by.
Total agree with the olympus 3's. Such an underrated shoe. Need a new pair, can't wait for the 3.5 to come out in australia.
I'm older and I have had serious injuries. I went to physical therapy to learn how to walk again twice in my life. I prefer the maximum
Keep going!
Seth, hope you’re doing well!
Future vlog topic: running and racing in the heat
Tomorrow I’m racing Cleveland and the starting temperature is 70 F. The high for tomorrow will be 83F!
Jarrod Crano good luck 🍀 and have a great run!
I started running in Merrell Vapor Gloves last year. It helped me change my foot strike to more of a forefoot/midfoot strike, which (I think) helped me shake my chronic knee pain. However, ever after building up the mileage and pace VERY slowly, starting with only a few minutes on the treadmill, I still ended up with a stress injury in my right foot. I do LOVE the feeling of the Vapor Gloves-and now have three different colour ways that I wear ALL the time....for walking (and hiking). For running, I switched to a low-drop shoe like the Saucony Liberty ISO, in which I've so far managed most injury-free miles in years.
I am not fully against maximalist or minimalist. For engineered surfaces, concrete, pavement I don't want to take the beatings of a minimalist shoe. When I turned up my mileage from ~35 miles a week to peaking at 90, I started to use maximalist shoes - there is a lot of miles on roads in those 90. I do think some use of minimalist shoes can help, even one is different. I would suggest no doing a hard turn from one to the other, just slowly build and ease in to it.
Spot on Sean!
@@SethJamesDeMoor In other notes; Cleveland Marathon would have been a mess with those temps.
Completely agree. Love walking and doing short distances in somewhat minimal shoes like the Kinvara, but I do my long runs in Hokas. Couple points to further the discussion: drop and Nike Free. I haven’t run in Nike Free but it’s an interesting part of the minimalist running phenomenon. Curious as to what you think about shoe flexibility. As for drop, a lot of Nikes that I love including the Pegasus Turbo have such an aggressive drop, and I really think it encourages heel strike. Great vid Seth! Hoping for your speedy recovery.
First. NO CRUTCHES! Fantastic!! And Love the merch. Also, I plan on ordering Today. Now, I’m still new to running, but what you said makes perfect sense. A nice healthy balance.
Away from running in shoes, I think flip flops, with the single thong in-between the 1st and 2nd toe, is the way to go to keep feet strong. Scott brand flip flops are imo some of the best. I've done hiking and all types of walking in them for 20+ years. They are very stable on the foot and provide great traction, and they let your foot spread out side to side which really helps keep all the little muscles in the feet strong.
I fully agree with you Seth. I used hokas during my last preparation for a marathon. While my knees suffered much less as I was covered longer and longer distances, the maximalist design concealed some of my flaws in my foot strike that ended up surfacing. I would use very thick midsole just on easy days and long distance runs, but not for tempo or intervals. To me, the sweet spot consists of a shoe that is somewhere in between or combining a maximalist style pair of shoes with a more average midsole.
Walking in a sandpit or on a beach barefoot can help with stability. Try walking on your heels, and then toes which will strengthen your muscles in your foot used for stability and injury prevention
Out of all the shoe brands, New Balance quietly has like the largest range in their product base. Most people only know them for dad shoes.
flips220 being a Boston guy I love my NewBs... but I’ve been stuck on Hoka for a year and a half...
i have been also going through this contradicting trends. as a tall and heavy runner (88kg) is tried all. Now i run minimalist shoes (like on racers) on treadmill and 5-10km races, mid sized for 20km and nike (too expensive to run else) for marathons. That was my program this year and it worked like a dream.
I always try to be barefoot as often as possible doing yard work, playing with the kids, etc. I’ve recently been running in the aforementioned new balance minimalist style shoe and have really taken to it for the past 6 or so months. The only shoes I alternate with now are my Altra trail shoes. I run a lot less mileage per week than your average channel viewer (~20miles/week) but I’ve felt nothing but positive since making the change. The only physical change I’ve noticed is the calluses being built up in between the balls of my feet instead of (when I ran in Hokas and Brooks) callus built up on the sides of the balls of my feet.
Based on huge amounts of information on this subject I have come to the conclusion that both stack heights have their positives and negatives. Some studies have shown that tall stack heights actually increase impact forces on the body. Upon further reading though the researchers do point out that the impact forces increase at a higher pace. Slower longer distances not so much. I have concluded that variation is the key as already mentioned by some viewers. Everything in moderation. Run in a variety of shoes over different surfaces and perform foot (and body) strengthening exercises on a consistent basis.
A mix is probably the best. My overtrained knee is enjoying hokas bondi 6 at the moment. But I guess minimalist way is not a bad way to go, the runners that can put crazy mileage in even those weird luna sandals, have probably transitioned slowly, over a longer period of time. Anything is possible if we ease our way into it :)
I used to run in saucony kinvaras, enjoyed the uppers but hated the outsole patches which wore very quickly. Now running in Altra Escalates and want to work in some Vivo lite 3s. I imagine in the future as I increase my mileage I may want to pick up some Hoka's/Altra Torins for recovery runs. I think that having a base of running in minimalist shoes is likely a good thing. But definitely something that needs to be worked in slowly and in moderation.
Hey Seth! I’m an ultrarunner. My advice is Luna Sandals for dayly trainer. They really strenghten your feet but you have to go slow at firs and only 20-30 min. I don’t like superminimalist shoes like Fivefingers but Lunas have some nice sole. I can go even to trails with my Luna Mono 2.0, in fact I can go in any surface in them.
Sandals are not shoes - your foot is free and it feels good. I’ve tested minimalist shoes like Merrel and Fivefingers but they don’t work like sandals do. Your feet can’t work trapped in shoe. Sandals let your feet move more freely and take care of cushioning. But in shoes I prefare good cushioning like Nike. In races I still use racers. I do trailrunning so Salomon shoes work for me. After Lunas real shoes feel super soft witch is good when you are running 100 miles.
So my idea is: strenghten your feet with barefootlike running (Luna Sandals) and use protective shoes in ultra races. Luna Sandals also protect me from injuries and overtraining. In Lunas I feel my feet better: are they sore, is there some pain? If your feet are not okay, you can’t run in sandals but you can run in normal trainers, specially in Hokas. Cushioning can make us feel better than we actually are. Cushioning is not protection.
I run 150-180 miles each week in minimalist sandals and i have no problem. Ran a marathon under 2 hours and 15 minutes in those sandals.
QD - Hi Seth, totally agree with you. Definitely need to be careful if transitioning to minimal. Also, I’d be careful about trying out new racing flats and running at 5k pace during a marathon training block - it’s great to get reviews on all these shoes but just be careful when you switch around. Another thing I’ve noticed you do (hope this doesn’t come across as criticism btw) is pulling your laces really tight - obviously good to be locked in...but go easy when you start running again! All the best 👍
We need more vlogs like this one, good one!
New Balance still makes that minimalist shoe. The Minimus MT10v1
I pretty much agree with Seth. I have some minimalist Merrell shoes that are ok for short occasional use but don’t have the patience required to build up to making them my long distance shoes... too many years of wearing regular shoes would take months if not years to overcome. I get signs very quickly if I’ve worn my Merrells too much.
As for maximumalist shoes I believe they might mask problems. I’m lightweight but not necessarily light on my feet. I could wear Hokas to help with this but I believe that I’m better off in more middling shoes and trying to work on being lighter on my feet.
As with most of these debates I don’t think there’s a single right answer. Try stuff out for yourself but listen to your body and be prepared to accept that the $100+ you’ve just spent on shoes may have been an expensive experiment rather than being pig-headed about it because you’ll suffer for it
Awesome channel Seth!!" So on the minimalist front... have a look at "Older yet Faster" they prescribe a long transition to minimal running using Xero shoes or similar. Essentially to remain injury free its about running and landing on the whole of your foot and it landing directly under your hips avoiding heel striking and also forefoot landing which essentially acts as a break. However as a Trail runner going over gnarly rocks and debris this might not be so possible.
Great video. Also, just ordered my shirt🔥👍🔥👍🔥👍🔥👍
QD: I personally enjouy running in medium to moderate cushioned shoes. As I age, my calves and feet appreciate the extra cushion. Note, I'm on my feet all day, so that may also contribute to me liking a little something something under my foot lol.
The facts are simple... Having good running form is the best for avoiding most running related injuries. Going minimalist/ barefoot will force the avarage runner into running with good form. However, It has to be done very carfully and slowly to allow the body to fully adapt to it's new and correct technique.
Runners that are already running with good natural form are more suited for the running shoe and are less likely to get injured than those that are smashing down on their heels.
So much to say. First of all, I think that stack height is the least important attribute of a minimalist approach to running. I think that toebox width and rear foot to fore foot drop are much more important. Why? A low drop keeps you from developing lower back problems from compensating for the tilt a high heel causes. It is also helpful in taking advantage of the natural spring you get from the Achilles’ tendon. Toebox width is most important in my view. I’ve been running almost exclusively in Altra, Merrell barefoot and some varieties of Skechers for years. A natural toe spread makes for the most stable platform and allows my foot muscles to do what they need to do. I understand the point about how our feet are, I would say, crippled by a lifetime in confining, overbuilt shoes, but I see that as no reason not to rebuild our foot function. With a gradual approach, this is completely possible. One thing I’ll say is that more important than stack height, is flexibility of the sole (obviously outsole, but midsole contributes to this). A sole that is firm, but flexes in the places where the foot naturally bends, will contribute to better foot function overall.
Wow Angus, thanks so much for taking the time to lay out such a detailed response to the QD. Helps so much for my future decision making.
more cushion for the pushin, yeah thats for me.
Probably a reason why all the barefoot runners are some of the the best runners in the world, for example “María Lorena Ramírez defeated 500 other runners from 12 countries in the female category of the Ultra Trail Cerro Rojo in Puebla, in central Mexico. She ran without any professional gear, and her pair of sandals was reportedly made from recycled tire rubber.” I think it has to do with how you’re absorbing impact and working more muscles.
I like the stack height of Zoomfly since its with a drop which gives the comfort plus speed for tempo sessions and minimalist like Xero shoes for walking and everyday work shoes. I walk barefoot always inside my house. And my training I do in Skechers GoRun Ride7 with medium stack height.
I am Manash from India.
All my runs are on asphalt and i work valet 40 hours per week running on pavement and concrete, when i first started valet 5 years ago i was limping after the first few days because all my runs were on trails and i wasn't used to running hard surfaces, now i use the hoka shoes to protect my knees and feet from the hard sufaces. Im trying to get bondi 6 but all the stores i call are sold out of my size. But in the near future i plan on running barefoot in the grass, i also found a grass field for sports where dogs are not allowed so i won't have to worry about dog poop lol. I also recommend listening to audio books, running with the kenyans, and the way of the runner to get a lot of insight on running surfaces and training types, very very informative
i used to run solely in barefoot-shoes. But only once a weak because my calves would hurt for 5+ days after running :-D.
Progress was still very good despite the low volume
As a child i was barefoot from spring till first snow... i enjoy walking barefoot even at work.
had a problem with feet all my life with Morton sindrome... but i discovered Altras... no more pain
Really interesting topic! I prefer additional cushion but I’ve not had a huge amount of experience across a range of shoes
Next% and zoomfly and VaporFly are max cushion shoes. So there's that.
For long runs I prefer softer shoes. If I do long road runs with minimalist shoes. My hip starts hurting after about 20k. Doesn’t happen with softer shoes. 183cm, 87kg training for ultra trail. Also for trail runs I like hola speedgoats
I find your posts super helpful, SJDM. Cheers, thank you.
I think as long as you run with proper form you can run with whatever shoe you like
Definitely some truth here but high volume runners may need some extra attention to all that pounding. Thanks for the comment and sharing your opinion
I feel like both types of shoes can be fine in moderation. But prefer an average amount of cushioning for most runs and maximum for some easy recovery efforts. My thought with shoes like the 5 fingers are if they were so great we’d be seeing the top marathoners using them yet they’re not. While the average runner is a lot different than Kipchoge or even Jared Ward, I feel like a good baseline is to see what shoes are working for successful elites.
Has that merch been there for a while? I honestly have not seen it before today but I often watch on my phone or through the TV so maybe it has... time to buy some stuff....
Here is my take on this and I have run in a heck of a lot of shoes over time. I believe you should always run in the least amount of shoe that works for you, over doing it with anything just doesnt make sense to me. Now that could be anything along the spectrum of shoes - everyone is different and I think it takes some time to figure it out.
As far as the minimalist discussion goes - I think everyone should spend some time running barefoot - I have always loved it and have been doing some for probably 30 years now, but I have never gone longer than about 5 miles. I do agree with you that too many people just jump into it and I think it takes years to get there because of what you said your body has adapted to running with shoes on and that doesnt just change. I love to finish my run in shoes and do .5 to 1 mile barefoot on the grass (or other soft surface) to cool down - even toss some striders into it. I have had some 5 fingers Vibram shoes but those for me are only if I need to do that cool down on pavement or in the winter... do that for a while and then maybe get in 2 - 3 mile easy runs on the beach or open grassy fields before going any further
the super high stack height for me just doesnt work - it is just too unstable for me - I have tried it a few times and as much as I have tried to like it for the times when I needed some good cushioning It has not worked for me... if pressed I will go with lower offsets but again I was wearing a shoe for a while that was somewhere around 10 - 12mm because it felt good on my feet, as before run in what makes your feet feel good running - I believe if a shoe is right for you it should feel like a part of your body - shouldnt even feel like you are wearing a shoe. Hope that makes sense to folks
Just showed up yesterday, the merch! Will make more videos on it soon. Waiting for my own merch to show up.
I am a novice runner who got a knee injury running about 50 miles a week in the five fingers. I bought a pair of vaporfly a few days back coz it felt so good when you are injured, only to find myself shuffling along in them. I plan to rotate my shoes maximalist, minimalist and the in betweens ie my Altra Vanish R, but personally I prefer minimalist shoes as a beginner runner.
I definitely lean more to the minimalist side but know I should do more of my slow easier miles in a slightly more cushioned shoes. I walk everywhere in a pair of xero sandals and i love them. They were really hard to adjust to and I even developed some injuries early on but sticking with them ive found my feet to be so much stronger now. And I need some more trail running shoes as well. Currently only have a pair of the altra escalantes which i love but would love more variation if I could afford it.
So great to hear Michael that the Xero shoes have helped you get stronger. I’m taking notes.
Broke my leg right above ankle. Was pretty bad break. Had 2 surgeries and was in a cast/boot for 6 months. Had to completely rebuild muscles in foot and leg. I did foot strengthening work every day for 2 years and still do it 4-5 days a week. Anyway I Run mainly in Hoka maximalist shoes as they give me a little extra support but I will occasionally run in ‘racing flats’ but I think more so than the shoes you run in I think the more you want to run the more and more time you need to spend time strengthening your body. Not just lifting heavy weights but using resistance bands and working stabilizer muscles.
The answer for me has always been if something isnt going well switch it up. Get a different pair of shoes, take days off, get on the trail or off the pavement or vice versa. Running is INCREDBILEY repetitive and most of the time your body is just asking you to change it up!
I love Hoka shoes (I own four pairs), however, Cushy shoes changed my way of running. Hoka shoes make me almost a heel striker which actually caused me to have knee pain. I do better running in a minimalist shoe ( forefoot runner)since I feel the ground better, have more control and have better balance. I prefer to run on grass in a minimalist shoe. Hoka ? I can do both ( grass and pavement), however, my knees hurt due to my change of running style.
Terrain running, I use minimal shoes. Pavement? Hoka ( short distances like 3-6k).
I prefer a more cushioned shoe. At 44yo I currently use the NP Turbo and Adidas supernova. I suffer a lot from runners knee and def want more cushion on longer or faster days.
Agreee, Vaporflys' heel stack height is 32mm and Hoka Cliftons' is 28mm, so in some sense Vaporflys are "maximalist"
There are just so many variables. I truly enjoy running in lower stack, lower drop but alas this 200 pound, 50 year old body can only handle this so much. I’m still new enough to running (18 months) that I’m trying to figure out my sweet spot for different runs and best shoes for me.
Minimalist running for me is kinda like a cast iron pot (if that's a good metaphor haha). The point is that regular running shoes always feel kinda okay but never perfect for me. However, running in minimalist shoes might be hard in the beginning but eventually I felt that both my running technique and comfort became better and better every time I were running.
I tried minimalist running about 3 years ago when I started running I’m now feeling it in my knees so now I run in shoes that are between 1-4 mm with a medium cushion the top two shoes in my rotation are the saucony kinvara 12 and the peregrine 11
Or the altra Torin 4 and lone peak 5
i think most of us have been raised to walk jog and run on shoes, which means we have developed a non-effecient feet to work without any protection, that tells us as a runner we should develop better our tools (feet) before demand bigger task from them, as running long distance, its sad but true! we need to learn how to walk before run, and then we can wear whatever we want, need or have to.
Just get xero shoes...
Why not both and every shade in between?
My shoes:
Long runs- Hoka Clifton 6 (high stack)
Short and pace- Hoka Rincon (high and snappy)
Tempo and threshold- Reebok Run Fast (medium/ low)
Trail- Hoka Torrent (medium/ high and snappy)
Road race- Hoka Evo Racer (medium and snappy)
I buy whatever shoe is on the rack at the thrift store.
Got all different kinds. Min and max.
And got all my shoes for the past 2500 miles for under $100
I usually like to where maximalist shoes, I'll do my long runs in my hoka arahi 2's and for fast workouts I where the Nike zoom fly's
Nice Nicholas. Any major injury history for you?
No, I am a high school senior now and I have run all 4 years now injury free, I typically train about 70km a week.
the hoka bodi 6 absolutely Killed my feet.. i had sore heels and the bondi's were super cushy but the heel pain was worse wearing them.. why? becuz they offered little support, my heel felt very unstable..the soft heel foam collapses and transmitts shock if u try to run in these and are a heel stricker.. the 4mm drop made them so tiring to get moving,like walking uphill in sand... the most uncomfortable ,squishy shoe ive ever tried... couldnt wait to get my feet Out of them whenever i used them
Wow great video so summary use minimalistic shoes for short runs on soft surfaces like grass and trail runs and use cushioned shoes for long runs and hard surfaces like concrete.
Barefoot inspired running shoes improved my running and helped cure my Achilles tendinitis. I use Zero dropped shoes like Altra, merrell and vibram fivefingers. I vary the stack height according to how my body feels. I find Five fingers great for easy runs as they require so little effort to run in; being so light. If I’m going off road altra or merrell which have a higher stack height to stop those stones bruising my feet, which have hardened over the years I’ve worn minimalist shoes and skipped barefoot (up to 30 mins)
Uh what? Lmao
Minimalist and barefoot, good setup for injury. However some Hoka shoes are ridiculously clown style. Somewhere in the middle for long miles. Sacouny make good long trainers. Good video. I agree
Just got my first pair of Hoka Bondi 5 two weeks ago and have been wearing them daily at work where I'm on feet at all day long with my job, averaging about 3.5 miles. Brand new for only $94 as runnerswarehouse has them on sale as they ramp up the latest Bondi 6. After decades of wearing Nikes, Brooks, Saucony, Brooks, etc., the Bondi 5 is my first ever maximalist shoe, and I am very happy and can definitely feel the extra cushioning and stability. I must admit I was shocked when I opened the box and discovered how very stiff the shoe is, literally no flex when pushing heel and toe of shoe together with hands. Folks, this is a rocker shoe and is meant to be stiff, but the stiffness does no at all hamper the pillowy feel. The shoe is very stable because of its oversized footprint/bottom sole. The foot sits inside in a depressed footbed or cradle, so no worry about turning ankle.
You guys overthink things. I do roadwork specifically for boxing, for endurance purposes...although I probably put in as many miles as some dedicated runners on certain weeks. There have been times where I've run 50-65 miles per week--obviously, this is just additional work for my actual boxing at night. Soooo many of those days I'd go on 6-10 mile runs with just wrestling shoes on asphalt. I'm not young anymore, either.
I think a major component that is often completely overlooked for runners is that so many runners just run. You don't perform resistance training, at least not often and not with as much intention as your running. If you squatted regularly, I would be willing to bet the majority of knee issues would be ameliorated. There is a big mismatch between muscular strength and the degree to which those muscles are going through repetitive motion.
Anyway, IMO...maximalist shoes tend to encourage poor form. They are forgiving and they also significantly alter natural running mechanics. I think most every human being is capable of appropriate running form, and can do so even with the most minimalist of shoes like vibrams or something.
i would not determine whether a shoe is minimalist or maximalist solely based on stack height. fellrnr.com has a pretty useful categorization of running shoes and he defines maximalist shoes (like most hoka models) as very similar to minimalist shoes, with the only diference being stack height. the two categories share two characteristics though: little or no drop from the heel to the forefoot and very flexible soles. by this definition the nike vaporfly models don't fall into the maximalist category because they have stiff soles with significant drops.
There's probably alot to be said for how flexible the sole is, perhaps in some shoes more so than stack height. If you run in very rigid support shoes, regardless of stack its not going to allow your foot muscles to work properly.
I'm enjoying the plusher shoes these days, legs seem to stay fresher for longer.
I ran my first half marathon in Xero sandals today (93 mins). 4mm of plastic on the bottom of my feet. First time racing in them for me and I ran a bit slower because of it. I usually run my easy runs in them and do workouts in running shoes. I have increased my cadence from 174 to 195 in today's race. Also was a serious heel striker and now have a forefoot strike. It's taken me 4 years to get used to them and I only run on pavement. I also have thinker ankle because of them. As with everything - slowly is the key.
I like the Nike Free line, it's sort of minimalist. I've been doing my easy 30 min recovery runs in them, on grass. Otherwise I train in a 'mediumist' shoe. I'm not really sure maximalist shoes are great for anybody with problamatic biomechanics like knee or ankle issues, but that is just a gut feeling.
Whenever I had some kind of injury, it happened during training in a minimalist shoe.
Unfiltered opinion: I very disagree about your conclusion. Alot of people are brought up removing their shoes whenever they enter a house. So personally I started have alot of knee issues with running any distance over 2 miles since birth, because they tell you to put on onnatural shoes. Went to the dokters and they said I just grow out of it etc... Furthermore I always had Converse Allstars shoes and minimalist Puma shoes when walking as a child. Now at 28 y old I threw out my runningshoes, bought a 20 euro extremely minimalist sandel with 2mm of rockhard sole, and all the serieus injuries I've had for years are gone with the wind. After running I feel my legs not injured but sore, I feel muscles I didnt know I had in my calf muscles, hips and even upper body. IMHO as a sceptic guy working in marketing, the big soles are only here because they crush the small marketing budgets of the barefoot companies, expecially because they are backed by the big plastic companies and their plasticresearch.
I feel that I need a fairly well cushioned shoe for most of my running, as I do a lot on hard surfaces. I think that minimalist running shoes can be very useful for walking around in. I have an old pair of Nike Free (RN Distance 2) that I never did much running in, but have done lots of walking in them (I’m about to walk to the shops in them now).