When Should You Leave Your Non-Reformed Church? | Doug Wilson
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- Опубликовано: 29 мар 2019
- In this episode of Ask Doug, Pastor Doug Wilson answers the question, "How do I know when I should leave my non-reformed church?"
Ask Doug is presented by Canon Press.
I'm here because I just left a church for a reformed church. The church was using bethel music and the preaching included very little Bible. I was supplementing my Sunday preaching so heavily with videos and podcasts and my own study, I deepened my convictions and found a sound. Reformed, bible teaching church. It's small, but spiritually strong. I'm grateful the lord has put me where he has.
Just went through pretty much the same, I've found a solid biblical church and am steadily growing again.
Have you read your entire Bible?
Me too!!!
Been there before; started “scoring” the sermons which basically amounted to tallying the number of times scripture was read/referenced, context was cited/offered, jokes , and anecdotes. When the score comes back with 1 scripture reference (usually at the very beginning and never revisited), 0 context, 7 jokes, and 4 anecdotes, you know the problem isn’t just imagined.
I’ve watched this a number of times and I’ve come to the conclusion that I might be able to pull off the sweater vest look …
The only people with classical Christian schools in my area are the Eastern Orthodox. Everyone else seems to be pretending they're living in a world that no longer exists.
Thankfully there is a classical Christian school near us in Denver 🙏 more Christians need to be aware of this
I was in a very similar situation last year. We were going to a very large non-denominational church when my sister and I became reformed. I found that during the services I was constantly trying to find things to criticize, whether it be the sermon or the worship (would not recommend doing that lol), and it was causing a lot of division between us and our Arminian parents.
After going through that for several months we found a great OPC church that we love, and we just recently became members of.
In my previous church my pastor told me that I was not allowed to read the Bible at home with close friends because it was too dangerous without a church leader!! I was not allowed to pray with them either. He said that all teaching and “prayer meetings” had to be in the church. Also seeker-friendly preaching! 😩
I eventually confronted my pastor. I share what happened - in a new series which I have just created. If you are interested you can see this on Lion of Fire Ministries 🦁🔥
Bless you, Matt
Hi Matt, yeah I saw your video about your former pastor. Been watching your videos thank you 🙏 I thank god for you Matt, your a blessing
This is a tough call, because it is very important to remember that you are part of a BODY in your church, and should never leave lightly. Especially if you are a member. Ligonier did a terrific conference on this in the 90s, examining this biblically and with great wisdom
Do you remember the bame/year of that conference? A link would be even better.
I am sorry @@Solemn_Kaizoku its been a while, it was in the late 1990s, but I cannot remember what year. The conference was in Seattle, Washington
How about when to leave your reformed church? As in dealing with issues of wokeness, sermons applying vague social justice ideas (said to be biblical) to current events, coronavirus hysteria, etc. The ruling and teaching elders believe the WCF, they hold to inerrancy, and they believe they are sticking to the text when they preach, but those commitments are not making headway in realty.
+1 here. Being reformed doesnt keep a church from being friends with the world.
People dont really realize this but the WCF is a compromise over various factions...much of it is intentionally vague. Because its vague your REs can adhere to it, and think CRT is a proper lense to see the Gospel.
@@TheChristianImperialist very true. Thanks
I've left two reformed churches that went woke. The only shield is adherence to the word.
Hey Doug! I had a question about senior Pastors being “called” away from their church to a new one. No controversy or theological troubles. Just feeling the Holy Spirit call him and his wife to another church, nearer to extended family and 30 mins from where their grown children go to college. Thoughts? Pastor has been at the church 25 years.
It sounds like he is using the Holy Ghost as a cover to work somewhere closer to his house.
Read John Reisinger's book "Abraham's Four Seeds" to see the problems with both Reformed Covenant Theology, and Dispensational Theology. Most churches in the United States fall into one of these two categories.
really full of recommendations today Spotter. Cheers
1:48
How do we prevent that?
1:58
How do we prevent that?
The question from the lady never said “non-reformed church”. She just said “church”. The title on this post belittles churches that are not reformed. The reformed are Pharacees and are intellectually prideful. It would not be smart to attend a reformed church.
I attend a Baptist church that claims to be reformed who recently split but when it was time to pick a name the Pastor rejected the word reformed in the name because he said "most people wont know what that means". We don't even confess any of the reformed confessions and the majority of the members during Sunday class reject the doctrine of election. Should I leave this church?
Not necessarily. I think if you follow Doug's principles in the above you'll be set. If there's a good church near you, maybe you should.
I agree. Not necessarily, but that doesn't necessarily mean you ought to stay either. It's a big decision to make, bro. Most Christians don't adopt the doctrines of Grace. It's a really hard theology for people to get behind. I'm a 5 point Calvinist and reformed Baptist, but my senior pastor would refer to himself as a 4 1/2 point Calvinist. I believe the associate pastor is an Arminian and one of the most seasoned teachers there is also an Arminian.
The doctrines of Grace are a hugely important teaching and very important to learn and teach, but we also have to recognize that most of our brothers and sisters don't recognize them and know them well.
I was in a Pentecostal Church while I was slowly learning about reformed theology. In a short time in my life at that Church, God had me teaching about our total depravity and Jesus' satisfaction of the wrath of God in a youth Sunday school for that Church. Now, I would never go back to a Pentecostal Church because of my understanding of reformed theology and it's truthfulness, but I would've never been able to leave that same impact on those young men if I just decided to leave without a sincere prayerful consideration.
We have to look at these things with hopeful discernment. We don't want to align with heresy and we don't want to make big deal out of minor issues. I think the biggest question you have to ask is if you are allowed to communicate your theological convictions openly and clearly without being met with hostility.
You don't have to agree on everything, but there is a line every Christian man must draw in deciding who will teach and steward him and his family in their walk through the preaching of God's word. Count the potential cost in the beginning. Always be praying and consulting the Scriptures, brother. God bless.
@@Stanzi18 the issue goes deeper than just rejection of the doctrines of Grace. They don't do any evangelistic work and have no love or desire to reach out to the lost. They have a very legalistic view on things.
Another issue is that they could care less in forming a real church. Membership is non existent since they rejected my suggestion to have all members agree to the doctrines of Grace.
Last week the pastor gave a 15 min sermon because he had someone speak about for 20 mins before the sermon.
And this coming Sunday he will have me play a video sermon because he said him and the Assistant pastor were sick.
I don't think i can continue in a Church this disfuntional.
@@diegolara4202 those are all pretty glaring issues, brother. I'll keep you in prayer. I don't want to tell you that you should leave because I hardly think RUclips's comment section is a good setting to discuss that, but at the same time, you've gotta be plugged into a solid biblical Church that's obedient to the great commission.
If you feel called to evangelize, I'd encourage you to go. This may sound strange to you, but our reformed heritage was built on men boldly preaching God's word into the open air. Don't consider that to be a dead and useless method. Open air preaching is a dying form of ministry, but we need it now more than ever. If you believe you're called to do that then lead and let your Church follow.
Trust in God's sovereignty, brother. Prayer and humble hearts emboldened by faith in God's capability is how we lead in our churches.
Have a few more discussions with your pastors and be completely transparent about your concerns. Stay humble and stay committed to God's word. That's how we stay grounded.
I'll be praying, bro. Sorry to hear about your predicament.
Leave the free will synagogue. A denial of the "election of grace" (Rom. 11:5) is a denial of grace itself and so the gospel.
who say's a reformed church is biblical i don't except the doctrine of Calvinism or infant baptism or dispensationalism?
Non Calvinist Wesleyan Arminian emphasis brother here..I had left a non denominational church here for their shallow teaching and Andy Stanley talking points and antinomianism affirming easy believism they were teaching..
I'm a wierd arminian I guess in that I have no use for the sinner's prayer or altar calls..
Yeah... we just found a crec nearish to us...
When your non-reformed church becomes reformed is at the point you should leave (among other reasons)
😂😂😂😂😂
I have a hard time empathizing with these kind of questions. Many Christians hop on RUclips and learn apologetics and theological terms and are so eager to demarcate themselves from who they consider casual and normie Christians that they go to church or grew up with. I encourage young Christians to get plugged into your church, especially small groups, and speak and seek wisdom from older men in your congregation. You will see they had the same questions and interests you have. It is really a byproduct of the age that many young men spends more time fantasizing about being some Martin Luther figure than hunkering down and growing into a humble, toiling man of God. Also: How many of these people writing these questions have actually read their entire Bible? I suspect very few, instead putting the cart before the horse as they pore over commentary and theology.
#DrCharlieDates
I true church is a church with all the divers teachers, preachers ,prophets , elders, .....
Because God dwells with us in diverse manners through two ore more . If it be speaking in tongues, giving utterance their of , ore understanding , meticals , healing , ...... God's church is not of a building made by the hands of man .
God's church people follow , because the message is powerfull so the non believers will believe . Everything God does , is not invane, but for a perpose tobthe lost , finding his way back home.
What honor is it to be good to those who are good to you . Is the reward not greater to be good to thy enemies , to love your neighbour as you love yourself, and to pray to those who spitefully wants to harm you.
No church is true , if the gifts of God is not upon such a church. If you understand the law of avangace , been renewed with the law of Forgiveness, you shall know that most churches are lost and week today. Its all about money , accountability, high image , and a blind side to the misfortuned.
If God would come down and see one of his children in te Street lost with no hope , all alone amd cold . What would you think he will do to such a church and his blind comunity ?
It shall be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah for them .
Only when you have discovered a better non-reformed church.
✝️📖🕊
No thanks I hate McChristianity
If anybody is having this issue the best thing to do is to go back to the true church. Church of the disciples. Before they had the bibles. HOUSE CHURCH! Get together at home with brothers and sisters who share your views and love the Lord. Sing, study scripture, pray together. Talk about life. Our body is the temple, and the Lord is with us always. The church of today is an institution. A good institution but just a building at the end of the day. Church is not a building; It's the people.
Spot on my friend. Exactly what I’ve done.
You can’t find them because they’re not upfront about the fact that they’re Calvinist! Lol
Not so. My church's website is upfront about calvinism :P
This conversation just illustrates the problem. What a load of nonsense. Shopping around for a church to suit your job or to educate your children. And he doesn’t even correct the thinking. You’re already lost.
“ What’s done us in is captivity to the distortions of the advanced modern age” Os Guinness.
all these denominations create divisions. Why do we allow our theology to be out idols?
Doctrine is important and also our conviction concerning them
If your not following doctrine, you’re following feelings. The scriptures talk clearly about this.
In Paul's first letter to Timothy, the very first thing he does is tell Timothy to go back to Ephesus and stop men from preaching improper doctrine. Proper doctrine is important. Heresy creeps in slowly at first and then devours churches wholesale. You see this today with the blossoming of the woke church.
Right! We should just follow Jesus….whoever he is
Easy. When you find out they aren't reformed.
Run from Reformed theology. It's Catholic light. Its a wolf in sheep's clothing. It promotes Grace through faith. Sounds good. Then brings you back under law. Foolish Galatians.
true Reformed theology does not pull you back under the law as a means to salvation.....not true.....the foolish Galatians were looking to keeping the law as a means of earning or keeping salvation; that is not reformed theology. Reformed theology believes that Christians should obey the law; but obedience to the law has nothing to do with salvation. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Calvinism is unbiblical and blasphemous.
😂😂😂😂😂
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing!
"God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created!
What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth!
What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets.
If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that.
Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW.
Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not!
It is masquerading which satan is so good at!
TRUTH IN LOVE
God is not the author of sin, but to say that He has not predestined or predetermined events to happen goes against Scripture.
The crucifixion was predestined, and is not the killing of an innocent man a sin? Yet, God willed it through Herod and Pilate to bring about redemption.
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur.
Acts 4:27-28 NASB2020
In Isaiah 10, God uses Assyria to punish Israel, and and then punishes Assyria for their actions. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility coexist despite our possible inability to comprehend it.
Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth? Nothing remains but to crouch among the captives Or fall among those killed. In spite of all this, His anger does not turn away And His hand is still stretched out. Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation, I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture spoils and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets. Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to eliminate many nations. So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the arrogant pride of his eyes.” For he has said, “By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, Because I have understanding; And I removed the boundaries of the peoples And plundered their treasures, And like a powerful man I brought down their inhabitants, And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest, And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth; And there was not one that flapped its wing, opened its beak, or chirped.” Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting the one who is not wood. Therefore the Lord, the God of armies, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors; And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame. And the Light of Israel will become a fire and Israel’s Holy One a flame, And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day. And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick person wastes away. And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number That a child could write them down.
Isaiah 10:3-7, 12-19 NASB2020
@@josiasmaldonado9439 Yes true God works WITH Angels! With humans! for and against them to get His will done.
But never as the lottery salvation of John Calvin. God predestines events but NOT who gets saved and WHO does not get saved. That is mans responsiblity to react to the predestined plan to call every human being to Himself.
A doctrine of demons is always... "God doesn't want to save everyone" Didn't die for every one!
But God says this about salvation.
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Timothy 2 : 3-6
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
TRUTH IN LOVE
GO TO BIBLE ... NOT TO CHURCH! God is not in the 44,000 different Christian denominations who follow "prima scriptura" instead of "sola scriptura." Jesus wants to meet you "outside the gates" in His Holy Word without the traditions of men playing games with you head! So be it ... it is so ... I believe A watchman of His Word ... Peter
What do we do when the Word says to meet with one another under qualified elders?
@@owenedwards3626 Verse please.
@@mosesking2923 Dear Pilgrim Moses King ... You forgot to tell the World exactly where is His One True church!
@@aonewatchman There's not just one place Peter. The church isn't hiding in your closet. The universal church shows itself in sound local churches where the Gospel is preached, the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper are observed, and there's a plurality of elders as is commanded in Scripture.
In other news, do you believe you'll end up in heaven partly because of how you live in this life? Or do you believe that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law?
@@jarredpetroff6659 Dear Pilgrim jarred petroff ... A simple question deserves a simple answer: "Jesus says, If you Love me you will obey my commandments!" (John 14:15) His first commandment to His Believers/church is found in Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " Then Romans 8:9 says, " if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ" and finally, in Jesus' Last command in the Bible, Jesus puts a curse on anyone that "adds to or subtracts from the Word of God!" (Revelation 22:18-19). Pilgrim ... Jesus saves not churches and individuals are saved not churches! AND ... there is no free ride ... Belief needs Obedience and Love needs Perseverance and NO One who "add to or subtract from the Word of God" will be saved ... No Matter how much Grace you thing you have! Respectfully submitted as my Scriptural understanding. A watchman of His Word - Peter