Ec is one of the very few creators that do unpaid reviews , I feel Paid reviews really cloud the water as you never really know if the creator is twisting the truth to make the item sound better than what it really is - Thank you Christopher for keeping it real and telling it as it is ! Looks like the Latte Panda is a great little SBC !
The SBC manufacturers should sponsor you, Chris (with a no-content-control clause, of course). If it weren't for your videos, I would never hear about these PCs. I'd bet that you are responsible for generating a significant portion of the sales for these products.
As a normal human, I'm glad they had an easy-open package. As a fan of this channel, I was disappointed that there wasn't any appearance by Stanley the Knife or Mr. Scissors. As for the board itself, it seems to be reasonably priced for what it has. It looks like a decent little computer.
Went to find info on this board and of course there's an EC video on it. I don't know why I still bother searching anywhere else first... Thank you CB, you make at least one aspect of our lives easier. o7
Interesting, Latte Panda has grown in size with each passing generation. Altogether a nice SBC board which could work as on the go PC replacement. Have a great week, EC !
The way you talk and present in a consistent manor is like a well designed Desktop environment - where all components match and we know what to expect. Or for coding, like a well designed API.
The Kdenlive results were impressive. The LattePanda has come a long way from their first board. I would find a comparison of their various boards interesting. Looking forward to your next video!
Again, great content and excellent presentation. It is an impressive SBC at a significant price point. On another note, I repaired and reconfigured a Lenovo T460 laptop to life using Linux Mint Cinnamon. All the Hardinfo data is excellent. I’m glad I could keep this solid somewhat older laptop. Cheers!
I happily run (Gentoo) Linux as a daily driver on a dual core Thinkpad T61 going back as far as 2007 - the T460, a very nice machine anyway, is new by comparison. I have Gentoo running on single core Pentium M Thinkpad T40, T41, T42 and T43 - yes, they struggle with web browsing nowadays but are perfectly good home laptops otherwise. Only Windows ages hardware to the point of it becoming useless to the clueless that know no better.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Had a T61 for awhile for about 5 years. My son and I used it for trying out varying OS to see which one would work best. That was fun. Now, I’m too impatient for all that. Must be the amount of caffeine I drink.
Impressive, at first I thought it is a brave person sending a SBC for Chris to review but with that performance I would want to show it off. Using 'bang for buck' comparison vs rpi4 this is impressive considering also the relatively low power consumption
Normally I’m a little resistant to more expensive SBCs as often you might as well buy a laptop by the times you’ve bought all the peripherals. However, in this case because of what it offers with the Arduino, 2 M.2 slots and connectivity for a touch screen I think it looks really interesting. I’m a bit disappointed it’s only 8Gb RAM but I’m still tempted.
Like so many(!!!!!!) other expensive SBCs the connectivity isn't better than a cheap microATX board with CPU, but it is underperforming considerably compared to that. SBC's like the PI where fun side projects for a low price. But what kind of users are supposed to buy the expensive crap ?
@@erikkarsies4851 Yeah doesn't make much sense. You could even buy a used thin client with very similar specs for a lot less money, plus it's got a case and stand.
@@FlyboyHelosim I think it ends up costing as much for them to develop as those larger boards because they aren't as mainstream. (kind of guessing here)
I only wish cheap laptops included debug headers or at least motherboard schematics. I purchased one of those $100 USD Gateway laptops with soldered emmc and it's frustrating to think that I can't replace the storage or recover data unless I use an external usb drive or universal chip reader.
@@erikkarsies4851 You have a lot of IO options that you will not find on any mATX board. It is basically a board that is cheap if you need it for industrial functions. It will not be the board to use as a media server or similar functions. It is a cheaper then any mATX board I have seen for industrial use.
Im old enough to remember when a $1000 PC was the holy grail for computer companies. Inflation adjusted that $1800 in todays dollars. Those $1000 computers were pretty much trash and I include the $999 base iMac in that. Seeing a $340 SBC that is far more powerful than the $1000 crap boxes from the early 2000s is just amazing. Even more amazing, you dont have to spend a dime on software to make it useful. As amazing as the advances in hardware have been, the fact that you dont have to spend anything on software, including games, is even more amazing.
The serial port would make it an ideal drop in replacement in old industrial computers, especially if it supports legacy booting. There's many old computers out there that will be getting to the age of needing replaced, and being able to fit small, cheap systems like this whilst not sacrificing power and compatibility would be quite big.
Instead of Another Brick in the Wall, we’ll call it another dent in the wallet. Just amazing how far the performance of the Celeron has come. Again, another outstanding review and presentation, always greatly appreciated. Thanks
Considering the current prices of Raspberry PI 4 coupled with absolute unavailability of 8GB versions, I would call this SBC a bargain, if one can actually get it. Thank you, Chris, for another great review. Have a lovely afternoon.
The RPi 4 doesn't really have much use for 8GB of RAM. And you can still find the RPi 400 for $100 directly from Canakit. Buying these things from eBay or Amazon is always going to be at an inflated price.
There are some cheap SBC Pi4 clones around and for almost the same price you can buy a microATX board with a way more powerfull CPU. Current SBC pricing are ridiculous compared to the performance you are getting.
Very nice Chris, thanks for the review....! When someone says SBC, it's not SIngle Board Computer, its Sir Barnatt, Christopher....so synonymous are you with all things SBC that both are interchangeable 🙂
Now this is the kind of SBC I've been waiting for. I don't want to have to deal with any of the headaches or compromises you get with ARM based systems, and this is the first semi-affordable x86 SBC I've seen that I would say is powerful enough to make it worth dropping that much money on. Definitely putting this on my list of things to pick. Should be a lot of fun to mess around with.
@@BeeRich33 the inability to run windows, mostly. I just don't want to mess with Linux. But also, ARM processors tend to be less powerful than a comparably price x86 processor.
Great video! I really enjoyed the "not fast forward" section where the SBC was doing the fast -forward for us. I might have liked to see some kind of performance test on the built-in Arduino. If you kept a sketch to blink into a frequency counter or an oscilloscope, we could get a feel for the chip performance. If you were feeling really generous, the sketch could include some floating point math with a blinky output. When I was testing some little seeed controllers I purchased, I was surprised to see the blinky program producing waveforms in the 20-30khz range. Thanks for the entertaining video and testing especially on the HD speeds, something I'm going to go try today.
Now you talk about a mini PC Christopher always love theses Videos. Theses kind of PC are useful for many uses cloud gaming weather stuff etc etc have a nice week.
8th of November on the Windows 10 panel...you really are posting from the future 😁 Amazed at how much faster it was than the previous gen. Maybe there's some dedicated hardware encoding in the new CPU that wasn't in the old one? (yes I know it's set to American date formats)
Well it may not be sponsored content as such, but they must know that they're on solid ground for a great review, lending YOU a brand new 8GB LattePanda. You have something of a reputation. LattePanda 3 Delta + Linux Mint 21... Shh, everyone, let's leave Chris alone with them for some "special time."
Thank you, Chris. Great video 🙂. All of your work informs and entertains, salubriously taming the wilds of the Internet, myself included. With respect to N5105 cpu, there's been discussion on Proxmox community forums indicating that while PM itself is stable on N5105, users report that oddly their VMs themselves are crashing (i.e. without seeing anything impairing Proxmox itself). J4125 Celeron may continue to garner these PM users' attention until their N5105 issues are patched. Some Proxmox users have switched and are running VMware in order to deploy N5105.
So glad I was born a nerd, hard to believe, I know, but most people out there wouldn’t get excited by this top quality video. Biggest question now is, since nobody can afford to run their central heating, how well will a lattepanda 3 delta heat your house and keep you warm this winter?
the issues with AMD is that they don't support as many code API's as Intel does (there was a parallel programming api that was dropped from AMD and since this doesn't include a nVidia GPU, no CUDA), granted that only affects a small subset of people but it's easier for a company to do one sku that everyone can use or you'd see this or the other board being even more expensive
It's quite interesting and unusual to see an x86-64 SBC running with a Celeron chip with a max speed just shy of 3 GHz; it seems the LattePanda family is gradually improving!
That is a very capable little SBC. You could slap one into a 1080p monitor and call it an all-in-one. I particularly appreciate how they have an Arduino sharing the board with all the pinouts you would expect and a lot more besides. Looks like the pinouts provide access to every aspect of the computer going all the way down to the BIOS so you really could make this board run anything
Again another great video, as always. No blabber, all the interesting and fun stuff. I love the theme of sbcs and you are my go-to content creator for things like this. Thank you for your time and effort into producing these incredible videos! I always love watching them :)
@Explaining Computers Once again, an excellent review! You should buy one of these and do a more in depth exploration. I think this little SBC might be worthy of the effort!
This one is quite impressive. It's not the best price point, but for what it does, the form factor and the performance, I'd (make an effort to) get one, though I'll have to save my pocket change to do it. Thanks for another great video Chris.
One thing you did not mention when comparing it with other boards including Pi 4, NUC's etc was the power consumption, that may play a big factor in some applications
So true, many parts of the world are in an energy crisis right now. Using x86 chips is becoming more and more a heavy legacy stone to drag along over the years. Their potential for further architectural optimization shrinked drastically. So intel and amd raise the frequency excessively, which is bad for the efficiency. It is about time to use better and proper solutions in the 21st century.
@@aladdin8623 We are one of those countries where food and fuel of all types are rising at an unsustainable rate. I have a Raspberry pi which I will be experimenting with as my "desk top" computer. Powered from solar, a charge controller, battery and DC to DC converter. All the energy ultimately gets converted to heat which at least helps to warm the house in the winter, in the summer not so good 🙂
@@GrasshopperOutdoors Wow congratulations, wished i had the skills too for home solar power builds. Arm based SBCs are in any case better than being dependent from intel's and amd's oligopoly. Beyond that i am excited about RISC-V based SBCs. Recent RISC-V combinations even come with imagination technologies gpus, for which open source drivers have been announced. They even got mobile solutions for more efficient tier 4 and even tier 5 hardware ray tracing, while amd and nvidia still use power wasting tier 2 and 3 hardware ray tracing. Hopefully in near future we don't need nvidia, amd and intel anymore.
Any chance you have that build posted here? If not, could you post one? I have tinkered with solar cells and comouters for about 10 years and i have no baseline. Motorcycle batteries, panels, etc.
Greetings sir!! This is one killer board!! I did upgrade the pre-installed Windows 10 to Windows 11 so I have it for testing. I also installed Linux Mint 21 on an NVMe drive but did NOT disable eMMC so I can dual boot. All of this is housed in the LP Titan case that came with the board. What power SBC review would be complete without our friends the ducks?
Thanks for this. I did not try Windows 11, so am pleased to hear that it worked for you. Dual booting does work on the setup I showed, either by using the BIOS to turn the eMMC on and off (when on, Windows will boot, when off Linux will boot). Or, after installation, you can leave the eMMC turned on, and boot from the NVMe drive by using the boot selection BIOS menu when you do not want to boot into Windows. I use this approach quite a lot on x86 boards with eMMC (and indeed more generally by physically removing drives with other OS on them when doing a Linux install, then reconnecting other drives afterwards). The advantage is that Grub does not run by default, and a Grub corruption does not prevent booting of more than one OS. :)
I have a couple of questions 1. Did you put linux mint on the hard drive you installed or use it on flash drive. 2. Do they make a case for this or do you keep it naked. 3. Another information and informative video as usual. 4. I keep learning more each time I tune in Thanks
Thanks for this. I installed Linux Mint on the NVMe SSD. No cases are listed yet, but there were several for previous generations, so one may arrive! :)
@@ExplainingComputers One could have a lot of fun with either a 3D printer or perhaps even a laser-cutter and wood; that could make for some really beautiful little cases.
I was puzzled by your disclaimer regarding the fact this video was not sponsored. I always expected the most honest opinions from you across the board.
I included the disclaimer because (for the first time this year) I had not purchased the hardware I showed. So I wanted to explain where it had come from -- and was returning to. Normally I make it explicit that I have purchased a product. So on those rare occasions when this is not the case, I make this explicit as well. Clearly I did not have to include the disclaimer given that I did not receive anything of value to help me make the video (if I had done this the video would have to be flagged as a paid promotion -- ie sponsored content). However, we live in a sad social media world where a great many creators break both RUclips's terms and conditions, and advertising standards laws, and do not declare videos featuring "free" products as paid promotions (something that the ASA in the UK has been complaining about recently). In turn this behaviour breeds the assumption that influencers/creators regularly promote free products without saying so. Hence the introduction I made to make it clear that this was not the case here. You can always take my opinions as honest, and it will always be absolutely clear where anything I feature on the channel has come from, and if I received it for free (which now only occurs with pre-release Raspberry Pi SBCs). :)
@@ExplainingComputers Thank you for taking the time to write this, Chris! You are 100% right in everything you said and it resonated perfectly with what I was thinking later that day. Cheers!
My criticism will go to the single USB 3.2 Gen2 port not being identified by a different colour in the plastic connector. However, this shortcoming is hardly Chris' fault and thank you for the usual great quality review.
A good video. I have a Linux Laptop with a slightly faster version of the CPU, and they do steam along very well. It would have been interesting to see the board running windows 11.
Very cool! If you haven't already returned this device and have time a short blink sketch video using the pins would be helpful. I could see getting this instead of a new low cost laptop with all the fun this would offer.
Hi Chris, I just spent a few hours this weekend setting up Android on a raspberry pi 3 using Emteria which allows 3 free licences for home projects. It works well and might be of interest to some of your viewer's. Also just another pi project with a twist. Keep up the good work 👍👍
Received my LP3D on Monday, really nice and powerful SBC. I have installed Windows 10 on a NVMe SSD and Ubuntu 22.04 on the internal 64GB storage, everything is working fine so far. Great to have a really usable pocket PC with fast USB and LAN ports and a full size HDMI connector. It is more than powerful enough to watch RUclips and Prime, even older games will run properly at 1080p. I have disabled a lot serial ports in BIOS to have less drivers needed, hope they will release something like a "Desktop" BIOS for this case in future.
This is good. This market can't be crowded enough. The most popular use would probably be on a living room television. It's a little expensive, though. You can buy a mini-pc for less money. Fanless if you like. And with an activated windows 11. The Mele one is excellent and does all that.
When it comes to detailing the hardware, this is the standard by which all other reviews and reviewers should be judged. The most detailed and yet also easy to understand breakdown of all key functionality. Very few others would point out the key differences between the USB ports. I also get to see some of the key benchmarks such as the disk speed tests. I hope that we will get another video, further showcasing the possibilities because the whistle is well and truly wetted. DFROBOT do seem to be operating in a rather cheap and tight manner, only loaning the device, which I am certain will crate major interest that will more than offset any loss of giving the product away for an impartial review. If there was a review of the month award, this would get the one for August from me. Well done indeed. My only gripe with this product is more aimed at Intel because however you look at things, this is not a budget price for what is a lower processor, which is lacking a key component for future proof use, AV1 hardware codec support from the GPU. Considering that Intel is one of the key members of the group that has created the open source codec, they are mind blowingly slow to implement it across the board. Yet again we have to wait for the next generation with Iris graphics to get support at the lower end of the range.
Thanks for this. Note that DF Robot offered a free board, but I wanted to return it to avoid being paid in kind, and having to declare sponsored content. But I have shot other content with the board other than what appears in this video, so it will pop up on the channel again. :)
@@ExplainingComputers I think that by now you have demonstrated that your views and opinions are always unbiased, so should not worry about seeing acceptance of a product as being in kind. If they don't want it back then they can send it to me as I will put it to very good use :-)
I do like the LattePanda single boards they're like an echo back to the netbooks we got in the mid 00s. I'd get one if I wasn't counting the pennies at the moment!
Just what I was looking for. I can put this in my truck for computer access and e-mail.. now to get star link and those components and have a good access point from where ever I am.. Well done.. thanks for the new info..
Thank you Mr. Barnatt for your efforts at a fine presentation of the Latte Panda 3. This SBC appears snappy for normal applications, yet I gotta request for the purposes of a DIY build for a normal mobile productivity (not gaming) requirements, I am wondering about the following questions: 1. What is the fastest boot time into Windows you observed with the NVMe SSD ? Same with Linux? 2. What are the observed thermals? At idle, at max load for example with the rendered video? 3. What is the Power Consumption: In watts. Yes I can assume it is less than the 45 watt of the AC adapter, yet, curious about Idle, normal productivity apps, and max video video rendering loads. 4. Where is Latte Panda manufactured ? Or can you refer my questions over to DFR Robot for more deep dive into test results.
I no longer have the board. :) The power draw (as opposed to the USB-C adapter rating) will be c.5 to 10W in most circumstances. I would suggest using the DF Robot forum to ask your other queries.
Like no. 600.. Like this a lot, should be able to run games on this one as well. Great review Chris, best performing SBC in x86-64 format so far, but pricey though..
If only it had a power consumption of under 2 watts. IF ONLY! (Seriously, I'm a sucker for low power consumption + great performance). That aside... lovely video as always, Chris. Thank you so much.
I'd love to get a latte panda 3 with a passive cooler, something like the noctua NH-L12S should be enough to keep this thing cool just through passive radiance and convection. I'd make a case that has the latte panda at the bottom with the L12S with a case just a bit wider and deeper than the latte panda, with cut outs covered in dust filtering along every side of the case below the cooler basically just using standoffs in each corner to allow significant volume through, and then an 8-10 inch extension above the cooler to act as a chimney increasing airflow when the cooler gets hot. I'd use this thing to monitor and record my security cameras in my dusty un-airconditioned shop
I'm with everyone else here: I would better get a cheap laptop of similar specs...so I did! I managed to grab an Asus laptop for USD$110 on sale: Dual core version of the LP3 delta soc (Jasper Lake soc, passively cooled), 4gb RAM (lame), Windows 10 Pro activated, 64gb emmc, m.2 nvme expansion port, extra m.2 that came with an intel wifi/bt combo, usb 3.0 and 3.2 gen 2, full hdmi, RJ-45 (yes, the last laptop with this port), speakers, mic, hd webcam, came with 45w charger, you also get the benefits of a 11.6" screen, keyboard, precision touchpad and of course a battery. I'm listing all these components so you can weight how much you can get if you deeply search and wait for a good deal, compared to a expensive sbc. Comparison valid only if you intended to use the LP3 delta as a regular pc (and not for arduino projects, etc). Edit: I got it so cheap because I think someone made a mistake. Intel in their eternal wisdom, brands all the dual core celerons under the 4XXX models (no matter the generation), but mine is the latest jasper lake celeron 4500 and I'm speculating that the store manager said "I want all these 4000 celerons that have been on the shelf for 7 years to be gone by the end of the sale" and so I took advantage. The soc is pretty capable and I'm dual booting with debian linux. The LP3 delta soc has two extra cores and is 100mhz faster. Has the intel GNA for AI induction and sound (integrated mic and speaker) filtering that really works and makes a difference, plus the latest and greatest improvements. Totally recommend any chip from the jasper lake soc.
15:36 good test, I would like to see this test repeated with the rock pi5 8GB when it gets released I have preordred one for $100 minus shipping of course , curious to see how well the rockchip 3588 will perform against these x86 boards , I hope you will be getting for review soon.
Thank you for the review! Good as usual. I am so sad about the price, because of that for the same price It is possible to buy in retail shop a PC with Ryzen 5300U, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, FullHD Display, Battery, integrated keyboard in a full notebook package. Almost the same price (~325USD with VAT.) All SBC and mini PC-s are overpriced sadly. I am watching them, because of a small, low power energy efficient PC for 2nd computer, but sadly all of them are expensive for the value. :(
Wow this is pretty amazing of course the usual question I always wonder with these SBCs is how they do on energy consumption, endurance, as ARM vs Intel based Still a very slim and stylish device with ease of use in mind.
From your video it is clear that you can use this thing as a media player. Great, I don't mind. But for a media player it is not necessary to buy specificly an SBC (and puzzle over how to make a case for it or where to buy a ready-made one). You can just use a regular mini-pc with the same result. The main advantage of single-board computers is in those additional pins. Unfortunately, you almost never test them. Please come up with some testing technique. At least some simple things: blink an LED, read a couple of sensors and so on. The Raspberry Pi usually works fine with this, but other, less common SBCs may have some hard-to-solve problems.
this one should do better than most other SBC's from the onboard Arduino, that's if you can put a RTOS on it as well as run an OS on the board itself and communicate between the two easily, at the price it is, with the features it has, i can see a lot of use in interactive robotics.
I think the fast video rendering is due to Intel Quick Sync - hardware codec processors - built into the UHD on board graphics. Very low end intel chips can do are really nice just with h.264 compression. And it looks like Mint understood this. But it will not be order of magnitude faster for every task.
Are the usb ports on individual controllers, or do they share controller? Excellent video btw. Hope your view stats are up again where they clearly belong. 😊
I am so glad you received this Delta 3! Your “full” testing of the older model was superb! If you find you may not need the older model (though you are returning this one… please advise. I did get one PI 4/ 8GB. I was hoping to get a 2nd one for wife to make a nice wood laptop. So many boards for the pi4 processor unit by many vendors , I am waiting to see what will be available for the wife. There is a long list already of other vendor boards for CM4, PI IS REALLY TAKING OFF. IM CONCERNED FOR AVAILABILITY THOUGH AT THIS CRITICAL TIME FOR RASPBERRY FOUNDATION. ILL SEND YOU LIST I HAVE OF OTHER VENDOR BOARDS FOR CM4 TO COMPARE WITH YOUR LIST! GOD BLESS!
I have the 1 TB version of that NVMe drive, and you're really not missing out on much for peak performance. Even if you were to somehow give it 4 PCIe lanes, it wouldn't double in speed. You need not be so disappointed.
![VENEZUELA vs. ARGENTINA [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SJfoPdeOPCQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Ec is one of the very few creators that do unpaid reviews , I feel Paid reviews really cloud the water as you never really know if the creator is twisting the truth to make the item sound better than what it really is - Thank you Christopher for keeping it real and telling it as it is ! Looks like the Latte Panda is a great little SBC !
Thanks Ian. I am glad that you appreciate what I try to do here. :)
If it weren't for this channel, I'd know next-to-nothing about the SBC market. Thanks for keeping us informed!
The SBC manufacturers should sponsor you, Chris (with a no-content-control clause, of course).
If it weren't for your videos, I would never hear about these PCs.
I'd bet that you are responsible for generating a significant portion of the sales for these products.
As a normal human, I'm glad they had an easy-open package. As a fan of this channel, I was disappointed that there wasn't any appearance by Stanley the Knife or Mr. Scissors. As for the board itself, it seems to be reasonably priced for what it has. It looks like a decent little computer.
I have an ARM SBC coming up fairly soon that demands some serious cutting to get at it! :)
@@ExplainingComputers I'm sure those of us who are fans of Stanley and Mr. Scissors will be thrilled. Though in general, I HATE packaging like that.
Reasonably priced? Looking forward to that reveal. Price is why I don't have a latte panda
Edit : wow, you weren't kidding. That's not bad
Stanley is the best
@@eidgenossenarkebuse Sure, but let's not put down Mr. Scissors. In certain cases, he works better than Stanley.
Went to find info on this board and of course there's an EC video on it. I don't know why I still bother searching anywhere else first...
Thank you CB, you make at least one aspect of our lives easier. o7
I wonder how people still like this board one year in
Interesting, Latte Panda has grown in size with each passing generation. Altogether a nice SBC board which could work as on the go PC replacement.
Have a great week, EC !
The way you talk and present in a consistent manor is like a well designed Desktop environment - where all components match and we know what to expect. Or for coding, like a well designed API.
The Kdenlive results were impressive. The LattePanda has come a long way from their first board. I would find a comparison of their various boards interesting. Looking forward to your next video!
Would this be attributed to Intel Quicksync?
@@revrndcast3918 If so, hurrah for Intel!
Again, great content and excellent presentation. It is an impressive SBC at a significant price point. On another note, I repaired and reconfigured a Lenovo T460 laptop to life using Linux Mint Cinnamon. All the Hardinfo data is excellent. I’m glad I could keep this solid somewhat older laptop. Cheers!
I happily run (Gentoo) Linux as a daily driver on a dual core Thinkpad T61 going back as far as 2007 - the T460, a very nice machine anyway, is new by comparison.
I have Gentoo running on single core Pentium M Thinkpad T40, T41, T42 and T43 - yes, they struggle with web browsing nowadays but are perfectly good home laptops otherwise.
Only Windows ages hardware to the point of it becoming useless to the clueless that know no better.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Had a T61 for awhile for about 5 years. My son and I used it for trying out varying OS to see which one would work best. That was fun. Now, I’m too impatient for all that. Must be the amount of caffeine I drink.
Impressive, at first I thought it is a brave person sending a SBC for Chris to review but with that performance I would want to show it off. Using 'bang for buck' comparison vs rpi4 this is impressive considering also the relatively low power consumption
A 45 Watt power brick has it comparable to some Apple laptops.
Another great video. Considering power consumption, (in the current climate,) SBC's such as this are increasingly significant.
Normally I’m a little resistant to more expensive SBCs as often you might as well buy a laptop by the times you’ve bought all the peripherals. However, in this case because of what it offers with the Arduino, 2 M.2 slots and connectivity for a touch screen I think it looks really interesting. I’m a bit disappointed it’s only 8Gb RAM but I’m still tempted.
Like so many(!!!!!!) other expensive SBCs the connectivity isn't better than a cheap microATX board with CPU, but it is underperforming considerably compared to that. SBC's like the PI where fun side projects for a low price. But what kind of users are supposed to buy the expensive crap ?
@@erikkarsies4851 Yeah doesn't make much sense. You could even buy a used thin client with very similar specs for a lot less money, plus it's got a case and stand.
@@FlyboyHelosim I think it ends up costing as much for them to develop as those larger boards because they aren't as mainstream. (kind of guessing here)
I only wish cheap laptops included debug headers or at least motherboard schematics. I purchased one of those $100 USD Gateway laptops with soldered emmc and it's frustrating to think that I can't replace the storage or recover data unless I use an external usb drive or universal chip reader.
@@erikkarsies4851 You have a lot of IO options that you will not find on any mATX board. It is basically a board that is cheap if you need it for industrial functions. It will not be the board to use as a media server or similar functions. It is a cheaper then any mATX board I have seen for industrial use.
Im old enough to remember when a $1000 PC was the holy grail for computer companies. Inflation adjusted that $1800 in todays dollars. Those $1000 computers were pretty much trash and I include the $999 base iMac in that. Seeing a $340 SBC that is far more powerful than the $1000 crap boxes from the early 2000s is just amazing. Even more amazing, you dont have to spend a dime on software to make it useful. As amazing as the advances in hardware have been, the fact that you dont have to spend anything on software, including games, is even more amazing.
Great post, thanks for sharing.
The serial port would make it an ideal drop in replacement in old industrial computers, especially if it supports legacy booting. There's many old computers out there that will be getting to the age of needing replaced, and being able to fit small, cheap systems like this whilst not sacrificing power and compatibility would be quite big.
most serial ports are just usb adapters these days.
Instead of Another Brick in the Wall, we’ll call it another dent in the wallet. Just amazing how far the performance of the Celeron has come. Again, another outstanding review and presentation, always greatly appreciated. Thanks
Very impressive! I'll be looking into this SBC seriously now.
Considering the current prices of Raspberry PI 4 coupled with absolute unavailability of 8GB versions, I would call this SBC a bargain, if one can actually get it.
Thank you, Chris, for another great review. Have a lovely afternoon.
Seems you're in luck, it's in stock at DFROBOT if you cared to click on the link in the description. 🙂
I just went on ebay in the us. They are around $120-150 if you look.
The RPi 4 doesn't really have much use for 8GB of RAM. And you can still find the RPi 400 for $100 directly from Canakit. Buying these things from eBay or Amazon is always going to be at an inflated price.
There are some cheap SBC Pi4 clones around and for almost the same price you can buy a microATX board with a way more powerfull CPU. Current SBC pricing are ridiculous compared to the performance you are getting.
@@Magus12000BC So true, mine almost never goes over 3 GB in use, even with Firefox and LibreOffice running. (Manjaro-XFCE)
Very nice Chris, thanks for the review....!
When someone says SBC, it's not SIngle Board Computer, its Sir Barnatt, Christopher....so synonymous are you with all things SBC that both are interchangeable 🙂
:)
Thanks Chris, as always well produced, informative and interesting. Your videos are always a 'must watch'.
Now this is the kind of SBC I've been waiting for.
I don't want to have to deal with any of the headaches or compromises you get with ARM based systems, and this is the first semi-affordable x86 SBC I've seen that I would say is powerful enough to make it worth dropping that much money on.
Definitely putting this on my list of things to pick. Should be a lot of fun to mess around with.
Curious as to what restrictions you notice with ARM options.
@@BeeRich33 the inability to run windows, mostly.
I just don't want to mess with Linux.
But also, ARM processors tend to be less powerful than a comparably price x86 processor.
Great video! I really enjoyed the "not fast forward" section where the SBC was doing the fast -forward for us. I might have liked to see some kind of performance test on the built-in Arduino. If you kept a sketch to blink into a frequency counter or an oscilloscope, we could get a feel for the chip performance. If you were feeling really generous, the sketch could include some floating point math with a blinky output. When I was testing some little seeed controllers I purchased, I was surprised to see the blinky program producing waveforms in the 20-30khz range. Thanks for the entertaining video and testing especially on the HD speeds, something I'm going to go try today.
Now you talk about a mini PC Christopher always love theses Videos. Theses kind of PC are useful for many uses cloud gaming weather stuff etc etc have a nice week.
Now that's one powerful little SBC! Heavy price tag (compared to other SBCs) but impressive performance results in this video. Thanks Mr. Barnatt. 👍
8th of November on the Windows 10 panel...you really are posting from the future 😁
Amazed at how much faster it was than the previous gen. Maybe there's some dedicated hardware encoding in the new CPU that wasn't in the old one?
(yes I know it's set to American date formats)
US and UK date formats are equally confusing. ISO 8601 seems to be most logical.
Well it may not be sponsored content as such, but they must know that they're on solid ground for a great review, lending YOU a brand new 8GB LattePanda. You have something of a reputation.
LattePanda 3 Delta + Linux Mint 21... Shh, everyone, let's leave Chris alone with them for some "special time."
I love this guy so much he is so nice and always so full of energy
Thank you, Chris. Great video 🙂.
All of your work informs and entertains, salubriously taming the wilds of the Internet, myself included.
With respect to N5105 cpu, there's been discussion on Proxmox community forums indicating that while PM itself is stable on N5105, users report that oddly their VMs themselves are crashing (i.e. without seeing anything impairing Proxmox itself). J4125 Celeron may continue to garner these PM users' attention until their N5105 issues are patched. Some Proxmox users have switched and are running VMware in order to deploy N5105.
I nearly forgot you posted the video today, glad I didn't miss it. It's nice SBC, it knocks spot of the other SBC. 😊
After Raspberries I also got into X86 SBCs very much and definitely see their advantages as Well 💪🙏
Another glorious day with a SBC, good job Chris keep up the good work 👌🏾
I’m impressed by how much they were able to cram onto a small board!
So glad I was born a nerd, hard to believe, I know, but most people out there wouldn’t get excited by this top quality video. Biggest question now is, since nobody can afford to run their central heating, how well will a lattepanda 3 delta heat your house and keep you warm this winter?
Hi, Chris. As usual, you've produced an outstanding video. Thank you and keep up the good work.
it is a nice sbc, but it seems like a little bit too expensive for me, but i hope lattepanda could make a Ryzen version
nah ryzen will overheat more
@@bennaambo2716 wrong lol
Get an HP T740 "thin client", they have Ryzen SoC's in them
I’d be a customer at a lower price and a Ryzen processor.
the issues with AMD is that they don't support as many code API's as Intel does (there was a parallel programming api that was dropped from AMD and since this doesn't include a nVidia GPU, no CUDA), granted that only affects a small subset of people but it's easier for a company to do one sku that everyone can use or you'd see this or the other board being even more expensive
It's quite interesting and unusual to see an x86-64 SBC running with a Celeron chip with a max speed just shy of 3 GHz; it seems the LattePanda family is gradually improving!
That is a very capable little SBC. You could slap one into a 1080p monitor and call it an all-in-one. I particularly appreciate how they have an Arduino sharing the board with all the pinouts you would expect and a lot more besides. Looks like the pinouts provide access to every aspect of the computer going all the way down to the BIOS so you really could make this board run anything
Again another great video, as always. No blabber, all the interesting and fun stuff. I love the theme of sbcs and you are my go-to content creator for things like this. Thank you for your time and effort into producing these incredible videos! I always love watching them :)
Thanks for watching.
@@ExplainingComputers I will happily continue to watch :)
@Explaining Computers
Once again, an excellent review! You should buy one of these and do a more in depth exploration. I think this little SBC might be worthy of the effort!
I'm so happy that at last someone compared vim4 and latte panda! Thank you Christopher!!
You are the only reviewer I have ever heard apologize to a board before turning it over! Great review, as always.
british moment
@@Robbie-mw5uu We Brits are very polite 😀
This one is quite impressive. It's not the best price point, but for what it does, the form factor and the performance, I'd (make an effort to) get one, though I'll have to save my pocket change to do it. Thanks for another great video Chris.
Great video sir. That SBC looks really amazing, I can definitely use an x86 board.
I love the retro sound of the theme music. reminds me of late 80's/early 90's
One thing you did not mention when comparing it with other boards including Pi 4, NUC's etc was the power consumption, that may play a big factor in some applications
So true, many parts of the world are in an energy crisis right now. Using x86 chips is becoming more and more a heavy legacy stone to drag along over the years. Their potential for further architectural optimization
shrinked drastically. So intel and amd raise the frequency excessively, which is bad for the efficiency. It is about time to use better and proper solutions in the 21st century.
@@aladdin8623 We are one of those countries where food and fuel of all types are rising at an unsustainable rate. I have a Raspberry pi which I will be experimenting with as my "desk top" computer. Powered from solar, a charge controller, battery and DC to DC converter. All the energy ultimately gets converted to heat which at least helps to warm the house in the winter, in the summer not so good 🙂
@@GrasshopperOutdoors Wow congratulations, wished i had the skills too for home solar power builds.
Arm based SBCs are in any case better than being dependent from intel's and amd's oligopoly.
Beyond that i am excited about RISC-V based SBCs. Recent RISC-V combinations even come with imagination technologies gpus, for which open source drivers have been announced. They even got mobile solutions for more efficient tier 4 and even tier 5 hardware ray tracing, while amd and nvidia still use power wasting tier 2 and 3 hardware ray tracing.
Hopefully in near future we don't need nvidia, amd and intel anymore.
The problem currently with RISC-V is that there arent a menu of hardware options. I own an Orange Pi Zero 2, and its nice for what i need.
Any chance you have that build posted here? If not, could you post one? I have tinkered with solar cells and comouters for about 10 years and i have no baseline. Motorcycle batteries, panels, etc.
Happy Sunday everyone.
Greetings Stephen.
Greetings sir!! This is one killer board!! I did upgrade the pre-installed Windows 10 to Windows 11 so I have it for testing. I also installed Linux Mint 21 on an NVMe drive but did NOT disable eMMC so I can dual boot. All of this is housed in the LP Titan case that came with the board.
What power SBC review would be complete without our friends the ducks?
Thanks for this. I did not try Windows 11, so am pleased to hear that it worked for you.
Dual booting does work on the setup I showed, either by using the BIOS to turn the eMMC on and off (when on, Windows will boot, when off Linux will boot). Or, after installation, you can leave the eMMC turned on, and boot from the NVMe drive by using the boot selection BIOS menu when you do not want to boot into Windows. I use this approach quite a lot on x86 boards with eMMC (and indeed more generally by physically removing drives with other OS on them when doing a Linux install, then reconnecting other drives afterwards). The advantage is that Grub does not run by default, and a Grub corruption does not prevent booting of more than one OS. :)
@@ExplainingComputers I just find it easier to not have to go into the BIOS so often.
I live on the edge and scoff at GRUB corruption. :)
@@sbc_tinkerer :)
I like your videos because they are real-world situations I've often had to deal with in friends and family computers.
Great to see another Chris video, Chris!!! This device looks great!!!
I have a couple of questions
1. Did you put linux mint on the hard drive you installed or use it on flash drive.
2. Do they make a case for this or do you keep it naked.
3. Another information and informative video as usual.
4. I keep learning more each time I tune in Thanks
Thanks for this. I installed Linux Mint on the NVMe SSD. No cases are listed yet, but there were several for previous generations, so one may arrive! :)
@@ExplainingComputers One could have a lot of fun with either a 3D printer or perhaps even a laser-cutter and wood; that could make for some really beautiful little cases.
Strong SBC showing! Gets the creative juices flowing
I was puzzled by your disclaimer regarding the fact this video was not sponsored. I always expected the most honest opinions from you across the board.
I included the disclaimer because (for the first time this year) I had not purchased the hardware I showed. So I wanted to explain where it had come from -- and was returning to. Normally I make it explicit that I have purchased a product. So on those rare occasions when this is not the case, I make this explicit as well.
Clearly I did not have to include the disclaimer given that I did not receive anything of value to help me make the video (if I had done this the video would have to be flagged as a paid promotion -- ie sponsored content). However, we live in a sad social media world where a great many creators break both RUclips's terms and conditions, and advertising standards laws, and do not declare videos featuring "free" products as paid promotions (something that the ASA in the UK has been complaining about recently). In turn this behaviour breeds the assumption that influencers/creators regularly promote free products without saying so. Hence the introduction I made to make it clear that this was not the case here.
You can always take my opinions as honest, and it will always be absolutely clear where anything I feature on the channel has come from, and if I received it for free (which now only occurs with pre-release Raspberry Pi SBCs). :)
@@ExplainingComputers Thank you for taking the time to write this, Chris! You are 100% right in everything you said and it resonated perfectly with what I was thinking later that day. Cheers!
My criticism will go to the single USB 3.2 Gen2 port not being identified by a different colour in the plastic connector. However, this shortcoming is hardly Chris' fault and thank you for the usual great quality review.
A good video. I have a Linux Laptop with a slightly faster version of the CPU, and they do steam along very well. It would have been interesting to see the board running windows 11.
Very cool! If you haven't already returned this device and have time a short blink sketch video using the pins would be helpful. I could see getting this instead of a new low cost laptop with all the fun this would offer.
This Latte Panda is an impressive media playing solution. Thank You for this helpful review of it.
Hi Chris, I just spent a few hours this weekend setting up Android on a raspberry pi 3 using Emteria which allows 3 free licences for home projects. It works well and might be of interest to some of your viewer's. Also just another pi project with a twist. Keep up the good work 👍👍
Interesting, I'll take a look at Emteria. :) Thanks for the tip.
Thanks as always for the great information!!! You are smart, articulate and very informative as always!!!
I had the model LattePanda and was very impressed, the cost for the 3 delta is the only limiting factor for myself.
Very impressive, as have been all of the LattePanda SBCs!
Hi Chris, and yes. I cannot believe that this is my 10th video about LattePanda hardware. :)
Received my LP3D on Monday, really nice and powerful SBC. I have installed Windows 10 on a NVMe SSD and Ubuntu 22.04 on the internal 64GB storage, everything is working fine so far. Great to have a really usable pocket PC with fast USB and LAN ports and a full size HDMI connector. It is more than powerful enough to watch RUclips and Prime, even older games will run properly at 1080p. I have disabled a lot serial ports in BIOS to have less drivers needed, hope they will release something like a "Desktop" BIOS for this case in future.
This is good. This market can't be crowded enough. The most popular use would probably be on a living room television. It's a little expensive, though. You can buy a mini-pc for less money. Fanless if you like. And with an activated windows 11. The Mele one is excellent and does all that.
When it comes to detailing the hardware, this is the standard by which all other reviews and reviewers should be judged. The most detailed and yet also easy to understand breakdown of all key functionality. Very few others would point out the key differences between the USB ports. I also get to see some of the key benchmarks such as the disk speed tests. I hope that we will get another video, further showcasing the possibilities because the whistle is well and truly wetted. DFROBOT do seem to be operating in a rather cheap and tight manner, only loaning the device, which I am certain will crate major interest that will more than offset any loss of giving the product away for an impartial review. If there was a review of the month award, this would get the one for August from me. Well done indeed. My only gripe with this product is more aimed at Intel because however you look at things, this is not a budget price for what is a lower processor, which is lacking a key component for future proof use, AV1 hardware codec support from the GPU. Considering that Intel is one of the key members of the group that has created the open source codec, they are mind blowingly slow to implement it across the board. Yet again we have to wait for the next generation with Iris graphics to get support at the lower end of the range.
Thanks for this. Note that DF Robot offered a free board, but I wanted to return it to avoid being paid in kind, and having to declare sponsored content. But I have shot other content with the board other than what appears in this video, so it will pop up on the channel again. :)
@@ExplainingComputers I think that by now you have demonstrated that your views and opinions are always unbiased, so should not worry about seeing acceptance of a product as being in kind. If they don't want it back then they can send it to me as I will put it to very good use :-)
Great Video Christopher. I wonder if you will be doing a future video that covers the interaction between the x86 and Arduino sub-systems?
I do like the LattePanda single boards they're like an echo back to the netbooks we got in the mid 00s. I'd get one if I wasn't counting the pennies at the moment!
my favourite aspect of the lattepanda line is the onboard atmega 32u4.
Just what I was looking for. I can put this in my truck for computer access and e-mail.. now to get star link and those components and have a good access point from where ever I am.. Well done.. thanks for the new info..
I can imagine that many of these will become vehicle computers of one kind or another. :)
Thank you Mr. Barnatt for your efforts at a fine presentation of the Latte Panda 3. This SBC appears snappy for normal applications, yet I gotta request for the purposes of a DIY build for a normal mobile productivity (not gaming) requirements,
I am wondering about the following questions:
1. What is the fastest boot time into Windows you observed with the NVMe SSD ? Same with Linux?
2. What are the observed thermals? At idle, at max load for example with the rendered video?
3. What is the Power Consumption: In watts. Yes I can assume it is less than the 45 watt of the AC adapter, yet, curious about Idle, normal productivity apps, and max video video rendering loads.
4. Where is Latte Panda manufactured ?
Or can you refer my questions over to DFR Robot for more deep dive into test results.
I no longer have the board. :) The power draw (as opposed to the USB-C adapter rating) will be c.5 to 10W in most circumstances. I would suggest using the DF Robot forum to ask your other queries.
Worth watching to the end (or at least fast forwarding) to see the incredible (spoiler alert) video rendering performance under Linux.
:)
Man this would be an awesome desktop replacement board. 3d print an enclosure and attach it to the back of a TV and you have an awesome media PC.
Totally.
Like no. 600.. Like this a lot, should be able to run games on this one as well. Great review Chris, best performing SBC in x86-64 format so far, but pricey though..
Lovely SBC, well worth the money i think. Thanks for sharing Chris. Stay safe and well
Greetings Brian. :)
I can't wait until SBCs like this have Intel iris graphics or similar. I don't know why I want an sbc for my next desktop, but I do
If only it had a power consumption of under 2 watts. IF ONLY! (Seriously, I'm a sucker for low power consumption + great performance).
That aside... lovely video as always, Chris. Thank you so much.
Excellent review ! Interesting SBC solution.
I'd love to get a latte panda 3 with a passive cooler, something like the noctua NH-L12S should be enough to keep this thing cool just through passive radiance and convection. I'd make a case that has the latte panda at the bottom with the L12S with a case just a bit wider and deeper than the latte panda, with cut outs covered in dust filtering along every side of the case below the cooler basically just using standoffs in each corner to allow significant volume through, and then an 8-10 inch extension above the cooler to act as a chimney increasing airflow when the cooler gets hot.
I'd use this thing to monitor and record my security cameras in my dusty un-airconditioned shop
I've been playing Kerbal Space Program a lot on this SBC. Runs like a charm.
This looks like a great SBC, thanks for sharing it with us, Anne Robinson
I'm with everyone else here: I would better get a cheap laptop of similar specs...so I did! I managed to grab an Asus laptop for USD$110 on sale: Dual core version of the LP3 delta soc (Jasper Lake soc, passively cooled), 4gb RAM (lame), Windows 10 Pro activated, 64gb emmc, m.2 nvme expansion port, extra m.2 that came with an intel wifi/bt combo, usb 3.0 and 3.2 gen 2, full hdmi, RJ-45 (yes, the last laptop with this port), speakers, mic, hd webcam, came with 45w charger, you also get the benefits of a 11.6" screen, keyboard, precision touchpad and of course a battery.
I'm listing all these components so you can weight how much you can get if you deeply search and wait for a good deal, compared to a expensive sbc. Comparison valid only if you intended to use the LP3 delta as a regular pc (and not for arduino projects, etc).
Edit: I got it so cheap because I think someone made a mistake. Intel in their eternal wisdom, brands all the dual core celerons under the 4XXX models (no matter the generation), but mine is the latest jasper lake celeron 4500 and I'm speculating that the store manager said "I want all these 4000 celerons that have been on the shelf for 7 years to be gone by the end of the sale" and so I took advantage.
The soc is pretty capable and I'm dual booting with debian linux. The LP3 delta soc has two extra cores and is 100mhz faster. Has the intel GNA for AI induction and sound (integrated mic and speaker) filtering that really works and makes a difference, plus the latest and greatest improvements. Totally recommend any chip from the jasper lake soc.
Sounds like you got a great deal. :)
That was quite the quick one to render!
15:36 good test, I would like to see this test repeated with the rock pi5 8GB when it gets released
I have preordred one for $100 minus shipping of course , curious to see how well the rockchip 3588 will perform against these x86 boards , I hope you will be getting for review soon.
Thanks for this. I intend to repeat the Kdenlive test on several future boards. :)
Pretty impressed for the size.
Thank you for the review! Good as usual.
I am so sad about the price, because of that for the same price It is possible to buy in retail shop a PC with Ryzen 5300U, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, FullHD Display, Battery, integrated keyboard in a full notebook package.
Almost the same price (~325USD with VAT.) All SBC and mini PC-s are overpriced sadly. I am watching them, because of a small, low power energy efficient PC for 2nd computer, but sadly all of them are expensive for the value. :(
Wow this is pretty amazing of course the usual question I always wonder with these SBCs is how they do on energy consumption, endurance, as ARM vs Intel based
Still a very slim and stylish device with ease of use in mind.
From your video it is clear that you can use this thing as a media player. Great, I don't mind. But for a media player it is not necessary to buy specificly an SBC (and puzzle over how to make a case for it or where to buy a ready-made one). You can just use a regular mini-pc with the same result. The main advantage of single-board computers is in those additional pins. Unfortunately, you almost never test them. Please come up with some testing technique. At least some simple things: blink an LED, read a couple of sensors and so on. The Raspberry Pi usually works fine with this, but other, less common SBCs may have some hard-to-solve problems.
A good point and noted.
this one should do better than most other SBC's from the onboard Arduino, that's if you can put a RTOS on it as well as run an OS on the board itself and communicate between the two easily, at the price it is, with the features it has, i can see a lot of use in interactive robotics.
@@MrTrilbe Well, it's still better to see it in action than just to know that it "should work"
Great video, as always. Please, Chris, have a look at Firefly ROC-RK3588S.
I think the fast video rendering is due to Intel Quick Sync - hardware codec processors - built into the UHD on board graphics. Very low end intel chips can do are really nice just with h.264 compression. And it looks like Mint understood this. But it will not be order of magnitude faster for every task.
It's a good idea for people who like small and a powerful computer
Are the usb ports on individual controllers, or do they share controller?
Excellent video btw. Hope your view stats are up again where they clearly belong. 😊
Sunday Morning Panda EC!
Nice video, thanks! Also looks like a nice SBC, though it doesn't look like they offer a case for it yet, at least one I could find in their store.
Yes, they had several very nice case options for the 2nd gen boards
Great video as always
Thanks for sharing your experiences with all of us :-)
I think that with rising electricity costs, companies should focus on energy efficiency instead of performance at all costs.
Considering the actual Raspberry Pi4 market price, the price/performance relation of this machine is very attractive.
Great video thanks!
But no mention or test of the soundcard with an *on-board amplifier*. This is a new feature compared to previous gens.
Ah, tat I missed. :(
I am so glad you received this Delta 3! Your “full” testing of the older model was superb!
If you find you may not need the older model (though you are returning this one… please advise.
I did get one PI 4/ 8GB. I was hoping to get a 2nd one for wife to make a nice wood laptop.
So many boards for the pi4 processor unit by many vendors , I am waiting to see what will be available for the wife. There is a long list already of other vendor boards for CM4, PI IS REALLY TAKING OFF. IM CONCERNED FOR AVAILABILITY THOUGH AT THIS CRITICAL TIME FOR RASPBERRY FOUNDATION. ILL SEND YOU LIST I HAVE OF OTHER VENDOR BOARDS FOR CM4 TO COMPARE WITH YOUR LIST!
GOD BLESS!
Excellent content as always. Could you make a video on how to use software defined radios(SDRs) with SBCs ?
very nice looking board with plenty of slots and connectors. and it is for Windows + Linux. seems to be a decent SBC for everything.
I have the 1 TB version of that NVMe drive, and you're really not missing out on much for peak performance. Even if you were to somehow give it 4 PCIe lanes, it wouldn't double in speed. You need not be so disappointed.
it could be a great little system for personal usage
Very interesting sbc , bit too pricey for me however. Thanks Chris