Tower PCs: An Endangered Species?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 июн 2024
- ATX form-factor desktops may fairly soon become retro hardware. This video explains why the tower PC is probably already an endangered species.
My review of the Odyssey x86J4105 mini PC included in this video is here:
• Odyssey X86 Windows & ...
And the two parts of my most recent Mini-ITX build are here:
Part 1: • Silent Mini-ITX PC Par...
Part 2: • Silent Mini-ITX PC Par...
I also have a guide to SSD form-factors, interfaces and technologies here:
• Explaining SSDs: Form ...
The reference for the Canalys data presented in the video is here:
www.canalys.com/newsroom/glob...
For additional ExplainingComputers videos and other content, you can become a channel member here:
/ @explainingcomputers
More videos on computing and related topics can be found at / explainingcomputers
You may also like my ExplainingTheFuture channel at: / explainingthefuture
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:48 An Old Standard
02:09 AT & ATX
05:53 Apple Evolution
07:50 Intel NUC
09:23 The Tower Falls
#ATX #TowerPC #ExplainingComputers 
Наука
![Eminem - Houdini [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/22tVWwmTie8/mqdefault.jpg)
I just purchased the Intel extreme 12 i9 kit and I am very satisfied. It is super compact, fast and still allows configuration and component replacement. Installation is a bit of a fingertip acrobatic exercise and it would be nice if some unused cables could be easier taken away, because space is really sparse. But all in all it is a very elegant solution.
As long as Intel makes the compute unit easily available for repair/upgrade, this is a perfect compromise between Apple‘s highly integrated but extremely unrepairable / non-upgradable approach and a fully customizable machine.
The only thing I miss is the optical disc drive. I am still old school with CDs and Blu-ray’s and will keep it that way to not be a slave of streaming. But it now has to be external.
Thanks for this comment, which is most appreciated. It is great to have practical feedback from a user of an i9 NUC Extreme.
@@ExplainingComputers and thank you for all your videos.
Perhaps, to go a bit deeper:
The really cool design of these extreme NUCs is the short path from the cool outside world to the hot components and out through the back or top again. The graphics card cooler fans are just behind the transparent right side, so that air does not have to travel through an intermediate enclosure as it happens in most large cases.
Also having the power supply within the casing eliminates an external power supply hanging around. In a minimum setup, you would only need the power cable and video connection. Everything else could be wireless. Very clean.
However, the NUC extreme will not be able to fit just any graphics card. I believe it is best with slightly shorter cards (two fans), since the full-length cards will seriously clash with the tailor fitted cables that run around the power supply. Also, mine brushes against the power supply rather tightly, leaving no space for any cable to squeeze in. Any card that is thicker than the perfect two slot width would clash with the case cover and/or the power supply, i.e. not fit in.
Next, the power supply is 650W only and can only support 375W to the card. A few cards on NUC Intel's compatibility list require more power - not sure why they consider those. To run at sub-top-performance? Why then pay so much money to begin with, instead of going for a lower grade card that you can use to its full potential? A 3060 card or equivalent seems perfect. The Ti versions are likely already too beefy.
And finally, with the current M2 SSD storage available, max internal storage is limited to 3x4TB. Which is a lot and high speed altogether ... but some might want to safe larger media files to slow discs. These would then be external drives. And a NAS is certainly a proper choice here.
In summary: The NUC extreme is a beast, blazingly fast, silent, super space efficient and cleverly laid out. It is a great device for scientific or development work, a more than excellent gaming machine and easily maintainable.
But if you need top notch graphics cards, or even want to run with multiples, if you need all your storage in one case or need even more RAM, you will have to go for a big case. And that is OK. NUC extreme is compact, maintainable power. Everything else is tower, laptop or small NUC.
Finally, during initial setup I used the Intel integrated graphics only and it was superfast and smooth already. I believe that many home users and professionals, who are not into gaming, don't need a laptop but might want a multi-screen setup, can easily live with one of those smaller NUCs. The compute unit alone is very capable. And they can still swap components. Especially the M2 storage is only held back by what is currently available.
So yeah, satisfied and for many the way to go.
Being old-fashioned is better than being "no-fashioned!" I am old-fashioned myself. I still use a desktop microcomputer, and would not care to exchange it for anything else. Also, I have a color laser printer, and a label printer that prints on laminated label tapes. Otherwise, I would not care to buy a laptop computer and carry it outside of home with me.🙂
@@captainkeyboard1007 you are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with a microcomputer - and neither with a large case.
And funnily enough, Intel just released the next generation of the NUC extreme and it goes more and more towards mini tower again. But once I am at that size, I would probably go with a good old fashioned simple case.
Hopefully not. A future where PCs get disposed when parts like CPU, RAM, GPU and storage that are soldered on break down/fail is not a bright one.
I agree. But sadly I think we are headed down that route. And to some extent, we are already there, with no many computing devices being phones and tablets . . .
@@ExplainingComputers I can understand that for phones and tablets given space and size constraints.
However, considering desktop PCs, even those small form factors have more than enough space to have individual parts replaced, there should be no logical reason to solder on the CPU, RAM and/or storage unless the intention is obviously planned obsolescence.
Soldering the CPU, RAM and/or storage on desktop PCs is a dirty move. Hopefully, countries impose stricter regulations on these things to reduce the possibility of having to dispose a PC just because their soldered RAM/storage/CPU fails.
@@ExplainingComputers no joke - 2014 I took one of the first NUCs and installed xenserver 7 - 2012 server (Full domain controller) a windows 10 best and a windows 7 pro install. 4 different operating systems and all worked perfectly in the size of a box slightly bigger than a pack of cigarettes'. It's 2022 - they're doing some suppression everywhere to artificially keep physical computers and it's industry of waste alive.
A lot of tech is already like that. Nobody will remember.
Maybe by then we will be able 3D print cases? If there’s a demand to build your own PC, someone will provide the capability.
Mark my words, 10 years from now tower PCs will still be going strong. Enthusiasts who want to build their own systems aren't going away...
❤❤❤
That is definitely true. We are not going anywhere, but we are a very small part of the market I think. So the feasability of offering components for this small market will be questioned. (sadly).
I hope your right. But it's the component makers who have the final say sadly.
@@JeremyGreysmark But it also a highly profitable segment. Make cases for an OEM and earn $10 a case or so. Make it for retail and make earn $30-$50 on a case that sells for $150.
I am a retired computer system administrator. Back in the 1990s we were told by our vendor that we would need 6 TB of disk storage for our SAP systems. We calculated that this would require 50 ft (about 16 meters) of cabinets to hold the 10 Gb disk drives. Recently I bought a 5 Tb external disk drive to add to my desktop PC for about $130 US. I can't stop laughing.
Progress is indeed amazing.
I replaced my 2Tb hard drives in a Home Server with ten 16Tb drives. The 2008 server copes with five boxes of 8 drives but the more recent card only supports 5 drives on eSATA but 8 via USB. Windows 10 is limited to 26 drives if separately assigned.
I remember the old floppies and the storage media in between. Now with the USB sticks, I have to chuckle seeing the size of the stick and the amount of space on it (128GB for example). What I love about it is that mine is storing notes from three years of college (assignments etc) and now, I'm using it for my portfolio. With the external drive I have, love how I can store it all and not be overwhelmed with a pile of floppies.
Lol...I was a tig welder who worked at a place that made all the mainframes for the Coyote's, and Road Runner's in the 80's for a bunch of companies that are long gone...
I just watched a video about how during WW2 the US designed and built the B-29 in a couple of years. This aircraft was original in most of the important systems from it's pressurized cockpit to its new engines. When we put the effort, desire and cash into a project we can make huge strides in technology very quickly. I guess that's why I'm disappointing at the political Luddites who want to stop us from using technology when we have the ability to use technology to solve almost any problem.
After 15 years of using laptops only, I switched over to a desktop PC last year and couldn't be happier. It just feels like the real PC experience. Nice big monitor, full sized keyboard, good external speakers and upgradability. I don't need portability at all because my smartphone or tablet is good enough for that.
My attitude exactly. I already have a portable computer with my phone. I can get more desktop for the same money as a laptop. Plus if I'm actually doing real work, a desktop with multiple screens is far superior to any laptop or mobile device.
I had to move to a laptop when my son and I moved into an RV. But I chose a refurb Dell Precision M6800, a very nice business-class Laptop that can support 3 monitors (and at least one of those at 2K), and is fully customizable (even the graphics card can be replaced).
However, 2 years ago we moved back into a suite, and I was looking forward to the day when I would switch back to a desktop. That time came, and I'm very happy to finally be able to type on the keyboard of my choice, and use a main monitor larger than 17" (I was already using a second monitor with the laptop, but now I can replace the laptop screen with a larger one also). It's also nice to be able to put in card readers, extra usb ports, more robust DVD/BluRay player/burner, and removable drive caddy. And it looks nice to put lights inside the case also!
One thing I miss is having a battery backup power supply, so if the power suddenly goes out, the computer doesn't turn off. I guess I will have to invest in a UPS eventually.
i fell you.i was doped for a month or so with my first new gen high end pc
Fully agree with you. Multiple monitors and CPU's running at twice the speed of their laptop counterparts speak for the desktop machines. I also need to point out the ergonomic advantage. Keyboard, Mouse and Monitor can be flexibly positioned to the most comfortable positions. This makes you more productive.
Yes smartphone for mobility and a desk top will last longer for stationary use.
I see the opposite happening. I think the PC will just continue to evolve like it always has. It's flexible, it allows for good airflow and heat management, its easy to maintain and upgrade, often offers the best bang for buck, and the best performance. Over the years it has continued to improve on and lead in all these areas. I see a lot of people caught up in the M1 hype coming back to tower PCs now.
One thing that RISC processors really help reduce is the amount of energy used, and thus, the amount of HEAT generated, which necessitates that MOST of the interior space of a tower these days be used for those massive fans and heatsinks (or fancy water cooling systems). If we could get all computers to use RISC rather than CISC processors, and integrate advanced graphics that were as powerful as their PCIe counterparts, and use M.2 SSD's all the way rather than hard drives or even 2.5" SSD's, then we wouldn't need those big towers anymore.
@@ebinrock if the processor can't compete with price, the tower PC will remain.
The primary driver on why tower PC are still here is because it is still more expensive to own a compact PC with market equivalent parts.
good heat management -yes ; upgradable - yes ; (price/ )performance benefit - yes! However: dont expect the 90% average joes out there to think the same way you do. They have other priorities such as practicability and simplicity. They are satisfied with a gtx 3060 running at 80° in their laptop. They like the ability to store away their device and not have it waste/dominate significant space in the room.
At my work (public administration) and my relatives' work desktop pcs are being replaced with laptops or thin clients(which dont have the benefits of the ATX form factor you had mentioned) It adds to the trend of desktop components becoming more expensive.
The "influencers" don't game with laptops. they have RGB blinding gaming setups that keeps the PC tower alive and to be honest more exclusive.
That's *exactly* what happened with me, and the nice thing was, this time, thanks to PCPartPicker, I was able to design my own, purchase my own parts, keep track of everything, and build it on my own. Can't ever beat that!
I have wonderful memories of searching through Computer Shopper magazine, comparing mobos with chipsets then ordering the components to fit within my very limited budget. Of course putting them all together was the best part.
That's what I'm gonna do in a few months!!
Still got My 20 year old Dell Dimension sitting opposit Me in My front room, it's not been switched on in 3 years.
ahh... the good old days when you could easily repair a computer
I still have an old copy of that magazine that I keep for nostalgia! 👍👍
@@HOLLASOUNDS CMOS battery is probably discharged...
The tower PC is sooooooo much better for working on video, graphics and music and even gaming. I see them continuing to get better and easier to build.
CPU coolers and GPUs seem to be getting bigger not smaller. Now even keeping a high performance nvme drive cool can require a decent amount of space and a heatsink. Dell were selling very small office based PCs over ten years ago and I imagine for low end usage that will continue, but I don't see larger cases going anywhere soon.
You simply can't beat a tower case on airflow & cooling options.
The meshlicious (and its many clones) can match it in just 15 liters.
Yup! 🎯
,... Not to mention it's cool LED lights and G-FORCE graphic card insignia on full display! ✔️✔️✔️
Both graphics cards and CPU coolers are getting larger. There is no way small computers could house them. That's why I think that tower PCs will remain, just their specs will change. Even consoles are getting larger: both the PS5 and the Xbox Series X are larger than their predecessors. And also, it's fun to build you own tower desktop PC from the parts you yourself have chosen and bought each one separately where it's the cheapest. Where would I house all those drives?
Everything shrinks eventually.
@@SpaceCattttt I know, wait until you reach my age!
Actually: The TDP of CPUs is dropping (Even performance level CPUs, especially Ryzens) and coolers are actually getting more compact, generally. Unless someone is overclocking. Example: Ryzen 5 5600x has a 65w TPD. Compare that an older performance CPU, like the AMD FX 8350, which has a 125w TDP.
@@creativestudios3d yeah, i can see that. my Ryzen 9 3950x is rated at 105W and with my OC settings, I've taken it to 125W @ 4600Mhz.
edit: and that's with a custom water loop using a 240mm rad
@@creativestudios3d You are wrong. FXs were the outlier. 5600X uses 65 watts, but 7600X uses 105 watts. Look at wattage compared to chip sizes. New smaller dies use more energy than older larger dies. Compare Comet Lake to Skylake or Raptor Lake to Alder Lake.
Thermals will largely dictate the size of cases, at least for high-end PCs that require liquid cooling and substantial fans/air flow.
Thermal efficiency. The less power needed for more stuff done.
But very likely 3.5 and 5.25 bays are going to disappear from the front of cases completely. If your lucky you will find a 3.5 mounting close to the PSU. Heck my case right now can not use the single 3.5 HHD mount if using a big PSU and RGB stuff in the case XD
And laptops with there fans makes the small size a problem due to the noise. But a compact tower with multiple big fans can cool 700w and still be decently quite. No laptop can do that really.
If it is 2010 components or 2023 components be dammed. A tower can handle 700W but a laptop is going to SCREAM trying to do the same trick. But looking at Apple there is a reality that performance is good enough now to not be needing fans to deal with the thermal efficiency losses for everyday use. Even some light gaming! Sweet.
No fans is the best. But towers are not going anywhere fast. Just hard drives and all readers are DEAD. Truly DEAD.
@@TheDiner50 I think that enthusiests that want 3½" and 5¼" front accessable drive bays in the future will end up having to scratch build their own cases.
Gamers who requier a top end graphics card and liquid cooling if they don't have a requierment for external drives don't need a tower case they just need a case where they can get air flow on the radiator(s) with the MB itself being ITX.
Tower PCs will never become obsolete because of the military factor. Our military grade non-stop defense computers uses the same principle used by security safe manufacturers that uses copper sheathing to defeat the oxy-acetylene torch (4000° F (2200° C) by having sufficient 99.99% pure copper thin fins of sufficient size and shape and we double their size and number above their engineering requirement. Military people find it amusing that civilian desktop computers are not up to par with our military grade non-stop defense computers in terms of heat dissipation and dispersion and the use of convection processes.
@@darthvader5300 That is a niche example and doesn't represent the huge numbers of the population for general computing. But your post is fascinating!
Yeh but the tech is now leaning toward optical processing with radioactive powered mpu`s.
Christopher, I can't tell you how happy I am to see a new video from you on this topic. Your presentations have always been methodical, logical, comprehensive, well-articulated, and (refreshingly) slow enough for me to follow. That's compared to the many channels which seem to be in a race to CRAM-THE-MOST-SENTENCES-PER-MINUTE, editing out even the narrators' pauses to _breathe,_ and allowing me no time to mentally digest one point before they've moved on to the next!
I've owned five desktop computers, with my most recent now being well behind the technology front line. But it's still very useful, because at purchase I loaded it with once-cutting-edge hardware, have updated it a few times, and now run Linux Mint as you do.
I've fantasized for years _building_ my next one. This video has really updated me on the form factors and technology. While it has made the idea of a self-built somewhat less appealing for me, it has also shown me some upsides that will help me to let go of that dream if that's what I end up doing. A very nice overview and guide. Very well done.
Thanks for this. Good luck with whatever you decide.
The tower PC is never going away as long as high performance is something that the end device market demands. More computational power demands more transistors, more transistors expel more heat, more heat needs more cooling capabilities, and more cooling capabilities takes more space. Small form factors can't expel as much heat, and therefore will never have the number of transistors required to compete with larger ones in terms of performance.
Apple's M1 was built on a 5nm node, a generation ahead of other micro devices on the market, and while I wouldn't say it is a bad product, we should do well to keep in mind that is was out performed by some of AMDs chips on the 7nm node. It was only out performed because of the size and power draw of AMDs cores, so just think about what a 5nm chip would be like with full desktop cores. You don't even have to imagine, because new chips from AMD were just announced with 25% performance uplift and x3d models with up to 30% more performance than that are coming. It's probably going to be around 50% average performance uplift for a ton of workloads when all is said and done!
The point is, Apple silicone cannot be a generation ahead of it's competition in terms of manufacturing every single time and bigger die sizes will always outperform smaller ones making towers the only option for maximum performance.
IMHO, Apple M1 is overhyped.
Apple M1 works as a portable device (power usage) but it can't compete with a tower. In short, the Apple M1 could throttle (even with light usage) and it is a big nope for anybody that need the most of the power.
Apple silicone shines in laptops. I’d take my pc tower any day of the week as my main rig though.
Agree!
Tower PCs will have much less market part in the future mainly because of cloud computing. Gamers (and probably big part of professionals) will use some kind of subscriptions - access to computing power from the cloud. I will be one of those dinosaurs still trying to build my own rig as I did in the last 25 years 👍
@@tomaszskorupinski9580 If everything went to subscriptions big business will makes us pay through the nose for what we enjoy doing, a plus one for building our own rigs though
The one thing I always say when it comes to the idea of the full tower going away it is that gamer's and creators will always want as much power as possible. So as the tech gets smaller it just means that they can fit more and more into them. Not to mention that with most cases these days having a clear side, the tower has become as much a aesthetic art piece as it is a usable piece of hardware. Something to be said about full tower with dual reservoir custom loops. For more general use, yes the tower is almost gone already.
Example of a literal work of art
ruclips.net/video/t03rmc-prJo/видео.html
The growth for Tower PCs will come from the gaming space. Apart from being able to bundle better and faster components the space inside combined with tower cases with transparent side panels allows gamers to showcase RGB ready internal components. The Tower PC is part of a showcase installation… the NUC option does not offer the same volume of showcasing space for components….
My Tower is still standing!
In fact, I'm into my 4th DIY tower build...and using it every day.
Not only is it a tower...but a Super Tower, I think it was referred to. It is extra tall.
I'm using a lot of advanced musical software and hard-ware connections, so I'm quite unwilling to give up on this form factor.
I love your videos...Please keep it up!
also, the anti right to repair and planned obsolescence from many big tech companies (which just care about maximizing profit in every possible ways, even dirty ones) also push those towers to be an endangered species
Agreed, sadly.
New laptops are all but sealed internet only junk ! No DVD ,no easy way to change out the battery ! Not all place one take a laptop has power or internet . The main purpose of one. Forced to use cloud based apps turns it into junk for a camper.
@@George196207 Sad it's start to see them on entry-mid level market. Heck, even some gaming laptop has soldered RAM for absolutely no reason.
In that case people will boycott those tech companies which do not see value in the right to repair and who still support planned obsolescence. Probably we are going to see laws against this malpractice.
Lol. People don't care.
For such a thing to happen, GPUs and cooling solutions would need to be miniaturised. Even AIO coolers take a significant amount of space. I think this could be solved with small form factor PC cases that incorporate vapour chambers, radiator fins and a single fan into the design, along with standardised smaller GPU sizes.
Edit: For more powerful PCs, anyway
a desktop celeron is 65watts, a mobile i7 is 17~35w, the solution in simple
@@diablorojo3887 Right, right...I mean...good luck GAMING in that.
I'm not entirely sure that's right. At the moment 4k 120fps is more or less relegated to the top end of GPUs, but a lot of people have already decided that they're fine with 1440p and don't really need more. As 4k becomes easier and easier to hit, I'm not entirely sure that people are going to feel the need to buy a high end, high power GPU to upgrade past that 4k 120 mark.
And that mark will become easier and easier to hit with each successive generation. Even with the upcoming generation of GPUs, it's been leaked that Lovelace will be anywhere around a 4k ~150 - 200 FPS device, and RDNA 3 somewhere around 170 - 210 FPS, in the high end, which I think a lot of people (particularly those who bought a 4k 120hz TV) will decide is unnecessary, which means they might buy a lower end SKU that uses less power.
What happens when a low profile card hits a high refresh rate 4k output with more or less maxxed settings? I think a lot of people will end up thinking "why do I even upgrade?" when considering a larger, power guzzling monster of a card designed for a resolution that they can't even see a difference in.
What happens when an APU hits 1440p high settings? 4k high settings? A lot of people might just decide that it's not worth the bother of adding a GPU at that point.
It's easy to look at the current generation of computer hardware and think that this trend of one-upping one another with increasingly less power efficient designs is going to keep going forever, but it does well to bear in mind that we're probably about to hit a soft wall in consumer demand as more exotic scaling solutions for GPUs appear, IMO.
well, the current line of gaming consoles are small and powerful enough and consume relatively very little power, the miniaturization already happened but not available yet on desktop apus
for itx, a good small tower cooler exist, almost a decade old from companies like noctua
not everybody likes liquid cooling
@@diablorojo3887 Good luck gaming, live streaming, rendering videos, compiling code, basically anything more demanding than dicking around on Facebook.
I love seeing how much you were into the video. Almost singing there at the end. :)
Always Enjoy your Delightful PC Builder's Insight. Thank you
Things have changed dramatically in the last two decades. You don't even need a PC for most "casual" use cases. So, it looks like PCs in general are mostly used by computer enthusiasts and gamers. But since those groups of users use high-end CPUs/GPUs which require good cooling solutions, the big-ass tower cases aren't going to become extinct.
the way i see it, the people who did not use a computer regularly 20 years ago are the same ones that "don't need a tower pc" today.
it's hard to go by without any computing capacity nowadays, but a smartphone will suffice for their usecase.
I think gamers will keep this tech alive for the foreseeable future. Games will only get exponentially more advanced and it’s not like a laptop is going to be running games and VR like a PC can.
@@OShackHennessy You can't even buy a game anymore without internet ! That alone blows chunks !
@@George196207 I wish you hadn't said that. Chunks is my dog's name...
What's considered causal today will not be causal in the future. It is likely you will need more powerful components to keep up with the demands of the casual use of the future.
I can tell you what keeps me coming back to Tower PCs. For me, it's that I don't want a mess of cables and USB Hubs to hook up everything I want. The alternative to a Tower for me is to have to deal with an external GPU, an external Sound Card, and an external optical drive. Sure, a laptop or a NUC is fine if all you want is the base functionality of an M.2 and some USB sticks, with integrated audio and video. But it doesn't take much to get you back to the situation where you need a Tower PC. I will be pretty disappointed if in the future I can't have a box with everything I want and have to have everything spread on my desk with a USB hub because Laptop users decided that's good enough and I have to make do. Some of the more expensive laptops can rival a desktop, but everything is so tightly squeezed together and it's too hard to open them up and replace fans, etc. Also, you just can't run things as hot in the first place because there's not as much room for cooling.
For editing and media creation a Tower is a decent option, try editing 4K video on a NUC with 8 gig RAM and external USB drives.
I totally agree. It almost makes me want to buy couple of towers before they are extinct😪
@@robredzI have seen cheap mini PC less than $200 in Aliexpress with 16GB DDR4 RAM dual channel and 1TB nve SSD on Jasper lake CPU which can easily edit 4K video. As if this is not enough, you can install 1-2 TB SSD inside as well, costing around $50.
@@kamolhengkiatisak1527 Good luck running Pinnacle Studio 25 on that PC. It's laggy even on my 3070/Ryzen 9 5900X with 32.GB RAM and 4.TB M2 SSD. Also. Forget running Topaz, Waifu on any 200$ PC. Recommended RAM for Video editing minimum 64.GB RAM, but many struggles even with 256.GB RAM today.
Uncompressed 4K video drains RAM as hell.
Informative, calm and even-handed. I really appreciate your style.
Thanks. :) Not everybody here seems to agree . . .
I discovered your channel recently. I like the content, and personal style of presentation. Best wishes for every success. From London, Ontario, Canada.
The worrying thing imo is the upgradeability of all of these new small form factor PCs with soldered SOCs that just simply cant be upgraded, including storage which Apple, in particular, charges a lot for. I think the progress with M1 and M2 is really impressive especially for laptops, however it removes the freedom to repair and improve our own hardware, meaning we have to buy a whole new product from them to get upgrades.
Very true.
TBH, unless you upgrade your CPU every single year, with the rapid changes in sockets & motherboard capabilities (eg faster WIFI, Ethernet, busses, new USB 4.1 gen 2x2, etc) it is pointless to even worry if the CPU is soldered or not; you'll want/need a new MB along with the new CPU.
@@tombyrer1808 Let say the product only have 8GB rams, but soldered. You want to upgrade the RAM to let say 16GB. Which mean you sell the laptop and buy a new one?
Impressive for throwing out money
@@tombyrer1808 I haven't upgraded my amd mobo for a couple generations now so that point doesn't ring true. Also what if you want to upgrade to a more powerful cpu within the same generation but you already have a fully capable mobo?
It will be like smart phones where they are designed to be replaced entirely by the time the next model is released.
I know I'm in the minority, especially considering "the average user" but laptops are too limiting for me. My previous computer was a laptop (which I chose for various reasons) and it ended up being very non-portable due to the spaghetti of cables connecting external devices: two monitors, keyboard, mouse, USB hubs, external drives (because the internal storage isn't _nearly_ enough), speakers, etc. My current machine is a desktop and I'm so much happier. Plus, desktop hardware can be upgraded. I've already upgraded the (internal) storage, RAM, and GPU in mine.
Laptops make more sense than desktops for an office environment. They need to be taken to meeting rooms, for example, or when we need to work from home. Imagine how the last two years would have been if everyone had desktops in the office and suddenly needed to switch to working from home full-time.
I don't disagree with your argument that desktops will become more rare, but I for one hope they don't disappear entirely.
I agree with you. My laptop has basically one function. It is used as a clock with the clock screen saver! I use my desktop about 99.9% of the time, even though I have a laptop and two tablets plus my cell phone.
I'm sure you're aware that "enterprise/business grade" of laptops use "docking stations"???...and with the implementation of USB-C, v3.0+plus makes the laptop more expandable? You do realize that you are able to get external cases to house high-end graphics cards which you can then attach to your laptop via cable...right?🤔 But, yes, I'm on your side as far as an All-In-One unit Case that houses everything you need!!!
I agree. I hate laptops and my company forced me to get one. It has a docking station, which still uses plenty of cables. I prefer an SFF format to replace my oversized tower.
@@fookingsog Yes, but the enclosures can be the price of a GPU and most laptops now tend to get less and less repairable.
@@fookingsog My latest notebook is a higher end version of what my daughter uses as a work computer. She gets to run rather hefty spreadsheets, so hers is no slouch.
I have four USB ports, three USB-A connectors, one USB-C. I have eternal SSD, I need an external card reader because the microSD card reader built in is of no use. An SDXC UHS-II reader would be good for almost everybody, those wanting microSD support just need to not lose the adaptor that comes with the cards. I also need to read CFExpress cars, fortunately no longer CF cards as I sold that camera. I could have cards from up to eight cameras to process. Extreme, perhaps, but there it is.
At the moment I have a SFF build and have packed the most in there I can, there is no way towers are going anywhere when more powerful cards like the 4000 series are getting release every few years, these cards draw a lot of power and need high end cpus to fully utilize them, which calls for larger coolers and power supplies.
Arm is changing that
@@JamesCook76131 arm? :o
I recently did a machine learning course and my 2019 tower PC handled all the computation requirements nicely. Dedicated GPU meant that geometric progression calculations were so much more efficient than running the same calculations on the CPU (CUDA+Python). Even so, some games can get the fans whirring along, so good luck with lag trying to play PvP.
I really hate this notion of having to kill off one thing for something else to exist. I also remember the days of when the laptop will kill off the desktop. It happens with programming languages as well, yet the oldies (and still goodies as far as I am concerned) are still around. Like with everything, it depends on usage type. I deal with programming (compiled languages), 3D modeling/sculpting/, 2D artwork, game dev and I still don't even consider a laptop for serious work in all of those fields combined. There are sacrifices made with mobile abilities. I do see more of everything being a service etc, especially with Windows and Mac, even their OSs. I remember the dummy terminal days, at least with the old days of not being connected to a WAN, there was more security compared to now with the always connected mentality. There are some markets that just won't exist in the same manor following a dummy terminal method, or at least not as well. If this happens, it will be more because customers are complacent about it happening compared to anything else. I don't think it is a viable future with Linux as that tends to go against the ethos of Linux, but for those that are on the other OSs, yep, I can see that easily happening.
It's not really killing off, they're just going to be less prevalent. People are still going to need powerful hardware. But for most normal people it just makes more sense to go for smaller computers.
Killing something is a fancy way to say that it will become unpopular. Which is a fact, not a need.
Do you want to try that last sentence again? Linux goes against the ethos of Linux?
Laptops will not kill off desktops because CPU and GPU manufacturers will never stop improving their products and the size trend is upwards for those components not down, and the biggest domestic PC market is gamers who demand power.
@@mjc0961 I think you missed what "that" is. "That" is in reference to this particular future that is being proposed goes against the ethos of Linux, not Linux itself.
I love towers and their customization options. They can become a beautiful piece of art and I personally hope they will never disappear
They wont vanish completely for a long time, but they clearly will become more and more niche.
I have been considering a SMF desktop device and your excellent summary of the present supply position was most helpful. Many thanks.
I really enjoyed watching this video. I love to work on my desktop pc. I love the fact that it stays cool with lots of air flow.
For the third point to happen on "The Tower Falls" segment, they are going to have to come up with some very creative and very consistent cooling solutions, especially for gaming and graphic content. I just don't see that happening as soon as 2030. I have yet to see a gaming laptop outlive a gaming desktop. Aside from that, you also have to take in consideration the ability to upgrade parts which is not the easiest thing to do in a smaller form factor.
Tower pc will indeed be the best for a long long time because of cooling and just choosing what you want to be inside.
What I believe we need is a newer Standard. PC's are all about modularity and choice and giving that up is going to be a tough sell for companies. I look at my desktop and it isn't empty at all... The AIO, fans graphics card, along with the PCIe USB expansion card have filled the case up. I actually hope miniaturisation will occur, but right now, we just have diversification, with Mini PC's being the niche. Great video.
I totally agree -- and wish I'd thought of this and said it! :)
given the power requirements of new ryzen CPUs and upcoming GPUs it will ultimately be the cooling solutions that play a considerable role in dictating size and I don't see that getting any smaller yet
I own and operate few desktops and laptops. All this time still can't get used to laptop's keyboard. I probably will buy a mini PC / NUC sometime in the future but it still defeats the purpose of miniaturization - I will still have a hard time using it as mobile platform anyway. So still, laptop for mobile, PC for serious work.
I agree. I just went on vacation and I lugged my Desktop PC with me. It was quite heavy with all the stuff i have in it, but I wasn't going to settle with my laptop for a whole week to game with. The condo room had a large HDTV so I used that for my monitor. I would love to see a new smaller lighter standard thats still modular.
Go look at 80s computers for what PCs were like before VLSI and smd was the norm.
SOC ie system on a chip is very good for lower spec low piwer PCs, but not for powerhouses.
As someone who looks forward to a fresh build every 5-6 years like a kid on Christmas morning, the idea of a world where swapping or fixing my devices can only be done with a heat gun and shim card is very saddening. I'll be building my third tower in January next year and I certainly hope it's not my last.
I will cross my fingers that you get to towers 4 and 5! :)
My company, employing mostly engineers and CAD technicians, about 5 years ago completed a switch of all employees to laptops from desktop towers. I think enthusiasts will remain on tower computers for a long time and I'm ready to build myself a new one for home use but I also use a home laptop frequently. However as home users have migrated from desktop computers they have migrated to using multiple monitors which is a problem with most laptops. At my office we use docking stations to connect external keyboard and multiple monitors to a single laptop, but docking stations are somewhat problematic. If home computers migrate to small form factor they will have to integrate more external connectivity than laptops have. And for home use a small form factor PC will need to be cost competitive and currently they are not. I've looked at currently available small form factor computers and concluded that I can build a tower computer of similar power for significantly less cost.
HP did a good job of making a PC smaller & easy to service with models such as the HP Elite 8300. Components such as the hard drives and CD rom drive could be changed very quickly. It was also easy & quick to pull apart for removing dust & cleaning inside. In comparison most laptops are still a real pain to pull apart to clean fans or replace any component.
Today I saw a downsized Dell tower. It's maybe 2/3 the size of my old dell tower and way lighter. I'm not a computer person but am just mentioning it.
One of the things I've always loved about tower PC's is the ability to mod them... To make them look unique and/or add functionality and features. For example, my last case was a Zalman Z1 with stepper motor controlled top flaps to stop dust getting in from the top. I modded it around the idea of a stealth fighter jet. I built a little control panel that was right next to my right hand even though the case was on my desk. With it I could change the case lighting from RGB to UV, desk back-lighting on two brightness levels, it had fan control knobs, power and reset switches, a switch to open and close the top flaps and I put a 5.25" card reader/USB/eSATA thing into it too. Made it really look the part with adhesive letters to label each part.... I loved that case but when my kid starting walking, I knew her head would come into contact with it some time soon. So I had to get rid of it in favour of a mid-tower, which I have obviously modded!
Modding a NUC....? Cut a hole and put another fan on top. That's about it, lads!
There's a large variety of tops available for NUCs (Pro range) to expand their functionality.
The board is completely removable to do as you see fit with the chassis.
I'm modding a couple of NUCs at the moment. They're an interesting challenge. Very much like modding ITX chassis, but for a 4x4in form factor.
Note: there are different product ranges, including Perfomance and Extreme (shown in video), Pro models (with vPro support), Element (Celeron/Pentium variants of Performance), Compute (SBC embedded type using a proprietary slot in design to a mainboard), and laptops.
Manufacturers have an incentive to lock you into their proprietary hardware (as small as possible, stuck together with clue if necessary). You have to pay them to upgrade every 2 - 5 years as the planned obsolescence cycle dictates. This is, once again, convenience vs. freedom.
Similarly, look at how the Raspberry Pi has an enormous range of third-party cases, mods, expansion "hats", and rival SBCs with compatible form factors and GPIO pinouts.
You might not be able to easily desolder the CPU and RAM chips the same way you can swap socketed parts but NUCs and other mini PCs don't have to mean the death of moddability.
@@saturnGEEK I wasn't aware of that because, as you can probably tell from my original post, I've been pretty narrow minded about NUC's thus far! Looks like something to have a little look into though! Thanks mate!
@@wereoctopus The thing I love about SBC's is the fact they've been made purely to be used for anything the maker wants them to be used for leaving it completely open to moddability whereas PC modding started kind of as a niche thing because people got sick of beige boxes and ATX boards need to go into ATX cases (unless you're a badass and make your own housing for them, which I'm not badass enough. Yet.)
When I was talking about the lack of moddability on NUC's, I was thinking purely from a perspective of limited space. I admitted to Swilly that I have been narrow-minded, and I'll throw my hands up but it comes from the idea that I can throw water-cooled loops, fans, lights, PSU shrouds etc etc inside an ATX case and I can chop holes, add extra grilles, throw an Arduino Nano and a couple servos, probes etc inside to make other things happen etc etc. The space to play with is the bit that grabs me about towers. I won't badmouth SFF PC's or SBC's because they definitely have a place in the environment but for me personally, I like having the space to play with.
Now... a NUC with an external control panel, like the one I mentioned before would be bitchin'! Have the NUC hidden away, carefully run the cabling from the controls and external IO. That's something I'd like to try :)
As usual, a concise and informed video Christopher. I will be one of those that maintains several tower cases, but also use the much smaller machines. As a builder I tend to lag the market and am gaming on a Ryzen7-1700x and GTX 1660 combo and in a nice, quiet, cool, easy to work on tower case. The machine I use as an office PC is a Jetway Industrial mini-ITX with an i7-3720QM in a 260mmx180x80 aluminum case, fanless, silent, cool. The machine we attach to out TV for streaming, a NUC6CAYS. What we older chaps call Horses for Courses.
Horses for courses indeed.
very instructive, good documentary. Thank you.
I've just bought one! There can't be many household devices that are so flexible or fixable! (it's predecessor lasted 9 years before the motherboard died.)
Or as reasonably priced. The video missed the fact that so many of these small devices with space for a video card are extremely expensive, and buying an external PCIe chassis for those that don't is also extremely expensive.
I do think towers will become more niche over time, but I don't see them going away completely. Noise issues alone are enough to keep me from having a system as powerful as my desktop in a laptop or mini from how fast the fans would need to run.
Noise is an issue for me as well; I narrate audio books and a laptop gets too noisy. I will keep on using my tower PC to narrate.
My small form factor computers, my Mac Mini, my HP ProDesk are a lot more quiet than my tower. althoug I've been working on quieting the latter with component replacement in fans and power supply.
@Joe Twist is that really the apple chip you're talking about? Even with their resources they can't solve heat.
Desktop sales may be lower because we can upgrade them and often do. A good motherboard generally goes through 3 or 4 video cards before we upgrade it to a newer motherboard to fit the bandwidth of our video cards potential.
What is keeping the big box PC alive is that high performance CPUs and Graphic Cards are creating more heat than ever before, which needs a big box to allow air flow and large aggressive cooling systems both of which take up a lot of space.
Yes, and all of that is driven by the development of ever more demanding software and monitor technology. Virtual reality will also be a potentially huge game changer :)
While I know I am in the minority; i've always enjoyed the look of a fully loaded tower case with every expansion bay filled. Its a goal I always strive for with every build; the latest containing two graphics cards (Not SLI but for rendering and more monitor outputs), capture card, sound card, m.2 storage, and 10 gig networking. Takes me back to those IBM PS/2 Model 60 tower behemoths.
The tower case market may shrink however as long as there is demand for local high performance computing its never going away completely.
True.
And I tried to get ahead of the curve.
Chenbro RM24100. If desktop pc is going away, and servers are still made and built, better go get a server.
Thanks for a very good summary of the current status of PC form factors. I have built my own computers for the last 30+ years. Until recently they have all been towers (except for the first two - 8088 and 386, which were 'desktops'). It has always been the case of doing the research, building it and then sometimes upgrading - you get the benefit of learning along the way. Gaming motherboards still appear to be evolving, but they may well favour the smaller form factor as you have indicated.
I've been hearing this for the last 10 years or so.
Enthusiasts and gamers will always want to build their own PCs. As long as the market is there for components, the companies will continue to provide them.
They are custom building DESK with pc's built in them etc, so your right gamers will always stay to custom builds. Its even becoming popular with youtubers now to have the best cleanest most expensive pc right?!.
Excellent video ..great job ..very interesting
my main problem is still that though yes you can get laptops that have a lot of processing power and I/o ports they cost so much that it still makes sense just to build a tower and if you are a power user or the tech guru of your friends and family I almost always find uses for my tower that would either take forever on a laptop or wouldn't be possible/would require me to buy adapters and standalone hardware like a drive bay.
Went to help Mum clean out her garage the other day, saw some old tower PCs still there. Brought back so much old childhood memories. There's certain charm about the retro look and feel. As they say everything old is new again eventually.
I really like your videos. You give us such good information. This one made me chuckle though as you said goodbye. Your voice cadence is fun to listen to!
I was happy you said that there'd be a market for home-build towers. I like a really huge case so I can be a bit lax in designing... there's more wriggle room for mistakes or wanting a new component in the future than a tiny case has. But I really do like these new tiny prebuilds that pack so much into a tiny spot and energy for doing the simple stuff anyways. I have a hard time getting my 5950x down below 120Watts use when idling and watching videos when at the 'high cost' time of day for our energy. I do my processing for about 16 hours a day and try to shut down to idle and economy settings at 4PM to 9PM. I might go from 500W when running hard to 120W underclocked and just web browsing.... but it'd be better to get a tiny little thing at 15W to have on to listen to music and browse the web at the times I have no processing going on. One of the models that could stick to the wall by my big computer might be good. Just move the gpu cable to it and the dongle for keyboard and mouse, and viola, 100Watts savings!
The important thing to remember is, as small as the chip dies may get, you can always have more of them, which will still require a larger case.
I grew up using tower PCs and now own one myself. I'd be sad if tower PCs as we know it ends up going away. But I guess technology has to keep moving on up... However, the fact that it could live on as retro tech gives me a bit of hope as well as a white hair or two. While tower PCs will end up falling out of favor for smaller, sleeker PCs, at least it'll live on in the retro tech community just like how the VCR and a lot of old gaming consoles have been.
You know what else could be considered an endangered species? PCs with disc drives. There are still some in towers but with laptops? A lot of new ones don't have them. Awful if you're someone who still adores DVDs like it's a spouse or have software that comes on discs. Sure you can buy a USB disc drive but to me, that sounds like something the cat will knock down and break.
By the way, I apologize but the Mac Pro looks like a cheese grater. A $6000 gigantic cheese grater. I wonder if you can actually use the front to grate some Parmesan? Now that's what I call mac and cheese. 🤪
I miss my old Server Tower I once had. It was 1m high case fitted with full size ATX, twin CDR, Twin 1Gb SCSI 10,000rpm HD, Voodoo 3DFX.... I loved those days. Now I still have a tower but much smaller, it has RGB but to be honest it's stuck under the desk
I had tower PCs and moved to open air bench a couple of years ago. Open air is so much quieter and easier to maintenance.
@@deanharrysmith718 I remember how my parents had tower PCs made by Compaq (rest in peace). I can't remember the specifics now but one of them ran Windows XP and had a LightScribe drive and the other ran Windows Vista. Believe it or not, the latter chugged on for several years before kicking the bucket!
There was also a time we had two other towers; one of which ran either 95 or 98 and the other which ran XP. One of my earliest computing memories actually involves me trying to run some Bob the Builder PC game that was meant to run on 95/2000 on XP to no avail.
Now, as for my current tower PC, it's a low-end HP one running Windows 10. It's good enough for drawing and running casual and older games, but I can see myself upgrading to a more powerful computer in the future.
@@allansh828 Open air computing sounds very intriguing but also a bit risky.
Then again, I can't say crap about taking risks with computing because one time when I was younger, I was using my laptop while drinking some good old Sunny D on my bed and I accidentally spilled it all over the bed. It missed my laptop all because it was on top of a USB laptop cooler that I lost the cord to, but still have even to this day.
It’s an improvement over the “trash can”
Thank you very much for a great video! Definitely the shape of things to come! It almost makes me glad that the motherboard in my full tower (server size) PC died when I moved house!
Great vid and the duration is the perfect number ;)
With a lot of the newer systems, you actually need all that "empty" space for either air movement or liquid cooling systems to keep these high power-high temp components from overheating and frying. Even a lot of new SFF (Small Form Factor) computers have a liquid cooling system, look at a case like the Louqe Ghost S1 where builders were placing a minimum of a 140mm AIO to keep the CPU cool.
I don't see towers going totally away as gamers and some graphic artists want the large storage capability that many smaller computers don't provide. As a graphic artist, I want to have multiple storage bays for SSDs as well as an M.2 on the motherboard for the OS.
I have a couple of tower PC's, been handy for extra space for drives
You rock man !!! the best method ever !! thanks for sharing !!
Thank you for this educational vid man.
Any time!
A factor not mentioned in the decline of towers are the NAS boxes proliferating. A major reason to have a tower was to house all those hard drives. That function is now being split off into separate boxes.
A very good point.
In the end "tower" PCs are still the *_best bang for the buck._* Even without all the expand ability they are better performers for less money than any of these others. Apple products will always be expensive for their lower performance. Things will get smaller but best bang for the buck won't be changing any time soon. And high performance computers still produce heat and tiny computers (NUCs, laptops, etc.) are either slower or get really hot. Excessive heat reduces lifespan. (RPi is a different category.)
I cannot agree about value for money.
Value for money depends purely on production volume, and as these units become ever more niche they will lose any economy of scale and so will become very unaffordable for most people.
@@Hfil66 so long as gamers feel the need for more power they're going to be running hardware that needs a spacious fan-filled box to keep cool. Gaming isn't going to become "niche." Hard to say what will happen with the tech after ten years though.
@@2ndavenuesw481 You are talking about hard core gamers. The kind of people who will spend £2K on a graphics card are not going to working about spending £4K or more on the rest of the PC, but I would contend that this is even today a niche market.
What I would contend with is that you will not be able to buy a tower PC for under £4K (plus inflation) within a few years (while most people are still looking to pay under £2K in 2020 prices for a PC), and that alone will scare anybody who is not looking for the creme de la creme in PCs. That pretty much defines a niche market.
@@Hfil66 what a fantasy
@@Hfil66
Even now, artists still require relativity high end hardware. Eventually, waiting for Blender to finish a full day render while the laptop is hot enough to cook bacon starts to get tiring. Desktops may get smaller with MiniATX and ITX, but they aren't going away
I recently upgraded to a Mini ITX desktop and I admit it was a huge step forward from traditional ATX, largely due to the amount of space saved and the complexity of cable management. I very likely will not go back.
Love these videos, subbed. As a long time PC nerd since my dad got his first DOS desktop in the late 80s, Towers sure won't be going away. Portability in the post pandemic world of work from home, plus being able to cram 64+GB RAM and dedicated on board graphics; a lot of people are just buying laptops. Refurb ones are in a good market. I am going to build a new tower soon. I have a 6GB 1060 from 2016 and it still does all the gaming I want. Content creators who want the Ryzen 64 core monsters will always be in the market for new tech. 🙂
Miniaturization and integration certainly can do some great things for performance, but it also makes everything more obscure and closed to the user.
Even with the current desktop paradigm we have plenty of invasive and restrictive features built into the hardware, affecting our security and privacy, which damage our freedoms. I see these future ultra-integrated monolithic machines not only as a detriment to consumer freedom (being able to choose and combine components into a custom setup), but also to general human freedom (not being surveilled and controlled by a state-corporate global tyranny).
I wish that even in that coming market, perhaps a new set of open standards will spring up, even in the required smaller form factors that the industry seem to be going for, to allow the contiuing customizability of consumer level computers. Or that, at least, new players will pop into the market and offer freer alternatives to the offerings of big corporations so you won't be under their control as much. Well, that's assuming the world doesn't plunge into the new feudal slavery dark age that no small ammount of powerful people seem to be bent on getting us to, in wich case, there won't be any options at all...
Chris, one of the key reasons I think desktop computers will stay around is ergonomics. Phones and tablets are horrible on your back and wrists (especially if you have carpal tunnel). A ergo keyboard connected to a NUC or similar computer will be a major market for a long time.
There's also flexibility. There hasn't been much change since PC97 came out, but it didn't really change much other than specifying colors for a lot of the common ports and that was about the time that you started to see buttons that were electronic rather than mechanical, so you could have a computer that could switch off without touching the button.
Personally, I do think that I'll probably go back to the '70s era of computing in terms of using a thin client for much of my work as the room I work in is rather small and gets hot rather easily. A small computer like a Raspberry Pi with a monitor, keyboard and mouse with the rest of the computer in a larger room where it's not baking me would work perfectly well. There's even off the shelf KVMs out there that do just that. Or, you can use VNC or RDP to do the job in a more DIY style.
I imagine there would be improved support for connecting peripherals. E.g external monitors, keyboards, mice. Samsung Dex works now but it's not perfect right now.
I truly hope so, no keyboard and miniature dumbed down displays don't inspire you to do anything.
I agree that machines will be used this way, but they might as well be the same laptop you pack up and take to class or work. There are advantages to having two computers (and I'm glad I do), but most people would prefer to have just one. I have the big tower PC but it may well be my last one unless I decide to build the next one for silence, in which case I'll appreciate a large box. And I have a hacked Chromebook running Windows 10 that may as well be a NUC, because it has puffed up _two_ batteries now and this time I'm not replacing it. But before that, it did double duty as a laptop 2% of the time, and a set top box 98% of the time.
My first PC was 286. I remember it not being AT or ATX. I think it was called ST or XT. It was very heavy. My monitor was non color monitor, so I had only black and yellow colors. The graphics card was CGA. I believe that towers will stay with us for quiet a while. There is no other option when it comes to gaming PC's with watercooling and lots of noisy fanss. People are still going to use them.
Thanks very interesting video, been looking at buying another tower
I'm definitely not against the "Fall of the Tower" -- Small form factors are very nice if you're building a mid-range machine with moderate cooling needs.
I would however strongly dislike a loss of standardization. Laptops tend to have very limited performance & lifespan due to thermal management issues, and they're hard to repair and recycle. The Mac Mini and Intel NUCs are brand-specific, proprietary form factors. There are a lot of upgrade/repair paths which are made impossible, like switching to an AMD CPU for example. This also means that when a component fails, you're likely going to create more e-waste than strictly necessary. For this reason, I do love the mini-ITX standard. Despite the limited size, mini-ITX cases tend to offer a lot of flexibility.
I see itx slowly replacing atx in the coming decades.
tower won't fail, upcoming trends will give small form factor a LOT of issue with cooling, its literally a new space heater generation with hardware according to talk on it. That means larger cases to cope with it
i'm not saying t here won't be stronger small form factor computers than there is now (esp in oems)
But the reality is that the higher end (and more sensible) systems WILL be at least mid tower if not full size towers or larger.
After all linus troll tips PROVED that a top of the line small form factor pc is barely viable to build much less run safely in a real world environment. It was Toasty even during his test, give it a little neglect with dust or pet hair or smokers and that can much more easily go up in flames and smoke.
Facts he conveniently only hinted at and neglected to mention or warn about.
Not saying it isn't a risk even with more sensibly sized towers but more air flow and a more proper ventilation setup means it'd be able to take more before such a thing happened.
And that was with CURRENT hardware, with the upcoming generation it'd probably overheat pretty fast if it'd even fit (probably would require a larger case at least) They've compared what the information about it would be like and basically it isn't viable at least with that case.
@@patg108
It is my suspicion that small form factor for next gen would very likely require custom cases, and by the looks of it, custom coolers if they are to remain performant. Blowmatrons can only go so far
Mini ITX are a decent solution for many
One big consideration... software, and software requirements. A tower is easier to upgrade over time.
As someone who has both Raspberry Pi and Micro Form Factor Thinclient for desktop uses, I am going back to the idea of building my own tower PC. You cannot really beat them for upgradablity.
Easy to upgrade and easy to maintain
Size and cheapness of hardware will mean it will not be an either/or but multiple pieces doing more dedicated jobs leaving the generalities for the main PC.
The only thing which can compete with the tower PC in terms of upgradability, is a suitcase PC, which is like a flatter tower PC with a lot of riser/extension cables for the components. For example, the dedicated GPU would not be perpendicular to the motherboard, but parallel to it, sitting next to it on a frame. The storage would also be either on the motherboard, or on the same surface as the motherboard and dedicated GPU. The power source and battery would be the same way. And all of that would have a lot more airflow than a laptop, and comparable to the airflow of a tower PC, depending on it's case. Though this would require the motherboard to be shipped with a waterproof coating to protect against spilling and condensation during transport.
Also, I hope we will see HDD-sized dedicated GPUs, namely 2.5" and 5", depending on the slimness of the device we want it on, and the space we have free. For example, we might choose a 5" GPU and deal with the extra weight, or we might choose a 2.5" GPU to have a lighter and/or smaller suitcase PC or add more fans or extend the heatsink to make it fit in a 5" slot. The 2.5" GPU form-factor would also fit very well in DIY handheld PCs, which would be somewhat similar to the steam deck, but would allow you to choose the screen, the controllers, and most of the other parts inside, including the power supply and battery.
I have many towers and all were at bargain basement prices, full of RAM and modern processors. My favorite "new" type of desktop PC is an RPI 4 with as hat for a bit more connectivity and a slick case capable of standing up like a "min-mini" tiny tower. Obviously not quite the power of the modern day PC, or for that matter Mac, small or virtually non-existent (ie Mac) form factor. Technology advancements aside...gimme a tower any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Hello Christopher, I've been following you for about 5 or so years now and I really enjoy your content. It would be great if you could check what Minisforum has to offer at some point in the future. The likes of EliteMini B550 or UM580 models are quite interesting. There you can find the option for external GPU by dedicated slot, change the AM4 based CPU or the USB-C alt mode that enables you to use single cable for powering the computer, while providing output to the monitor at the same time. You might be interested to check some of the reviews in the ETA Prime channel. They might give you some fresh ideas for your future videos. Keep up the good work! Cheers!
I'm not inherently against a transition to the smaller computers, so long as we still have the ability to build and customise them.
i think that the perfect example of that is the pi itself, it has all the basics but the storage, no case in case you want to make your own
the problem is expansion or upgrades, none available
perhaps pi in the future can do that
i do believe that itx will evolve alot thanks to amd apus at the level of consoles, leaving you the spave for a pcci express or two devices to be added
Interesting times for sure, but even as an enthusiastic owner of an M1 Max, I think the desktop will continue to evolve and adapt much like your example of the AT to ATX evolution.
Deep dives into the M1 architecture show that while the integrated components are a significant part of it's incredible performance per watt, it isn't the silver bullet. For example, the on-package memory is set up in an 8-channel configuration of LPDDR (which I believe has been called "the poor man's HBM") which is what allows it's ferocious memory speed. Likewise, the integrated GPU also relies heavily on this shared memory, which is why heavier projects that would saturate a PCI bus do much better on the SoC architecture. And of course, there's the other parts of the M1 architecture that are glossed over, such as the fixed-length instructions, lack of 32-bit instructions, and AArch64's own proprietary extension of the ARM ISA.
I certainly agree with your point that the full tower desktop will become more niche in its application, however this doesn't necissarily mean the death of internal expansion. We still haven't seen what the ARM competition has or will come up with (many of which have stated their intention to build M1 competitors). Every other processor company has a different business model to Apple, which means that one specific point of leverage that Apple has cannot be afforded to their competiton: die size and transistor budget. Apple's M1 series have very large die sizes and incredible amounts of transistors, which are only sold in Apple computers. The cost of manufactue of which can be mitigated in the sale of the computer as a whole. The competition doesn't have this luxury, as they sell their processors to OEM's and consumers directly, meaning that the processor has to have a profit all its own.
As an extension to the fact that we haven't seen the response from the ARM competition yet, the use of an SoC architecture doesn't necissarily prevent expansion. Another Apple example: The Mac Studio does have the SSD controller built onto the SoC, but has two socketed drives of "dumb memory". As well as the Mac Pro tower, which uses the T2 chip as a memory controller as has 2 drives of "dumb memory". As for things like PCI lanes and such, we know the M1 architecture allows for expansion through Thunderbolt ports, which are extended off the PCI bus. (The lack of graphical expansion being related to the architecture simply not being set up to communicate with any external graphics and having no drivers even if it could). Indeed, for the M-series Mac Pro it's already rumored to have two PCI expansion slots.
It's not a great leap of logic to think that other competitiors who may adopt an SoC architecture for better efficiency would still have room for expansion. In the current x86 space processors with on-processor graphics already have the capability to be expanded upon with graphics cards. If NVidia gets into the SoC ring as they've stated their intentions to do so, I think they'd be keen to sell OEM's and consumers two products instead of one alone. I'm sure Qualcomm or Samsung would also be keen to be able to "outsource" the powerful graphics to AMD or NVidia rather than have to develop their own SoC to compete with them.
I can certainly see socketable RAM dying out though, that's just a direct casualty of unified memory. But I can't name the last time I've had RAM fail on me, so that's neither here nor there. PCI expansion is just too ingrained in professional applications to go away completely (a non-graphics example I can think of is AVID cards for music recording.)
And as a final note, Apple themselves tried the whole "non-expandable, small form factor, high performance desktop" in 2013. It flopped so badly they made a public apology in 2017 and released a tower in 2019.
Great post. :)
I doubt socketable ram will ever die. No one wants to buy a new cpu just to get a ram upgrade. That is ridiculous, and furthermore there are probably limits to how much unified memory you can cram onto the chip. Good luck getting 2 Terabytes of ram on an SOC.
I remember when Tower pc's made (ok, I'm not sure what they were called) horizontal PC's obselete, there was a magazine called computer shopper that was literally an inch or more thick. Tower PC's are more user customize-able, though, you may not need an optical drive, HDD or floppy drive, but definitely the video card and being able to put peripheral cards in the slots for more USB ports, SCSI (if that's still used) etc
I would love to see a video from you that shows the building, or at least the component selection, of a desktop PC with the smallest possible case using a standard ATX power supply (PSU). I like the newer very small cases, but I also like the durability and flexibility of the ATX PSU form factor. In any case, (pun intended) keep up the good work!
We enthusiasts will keep the tower alive. Airflow, airflow, airflow
I believe you're probably correct.
However, there's a big benefit to the larger box: thermals.
The big issue with ITX form factor gaming PC's at the moment is heat dissipation in high performance applications. Once that problem is solved, we'll probably see smaller form factor PC's become the norm, as you said, in the 2030's more than likely.
If designers like the ones at Apple weren't so damn consumed by the perfect aesthetics of everything, maybe they could include more ventilation slots all over the chassis (which might actually look cool if they give it a try), and that way the heat has plenty of spaces where it can go.
lol itx cases now can have same and better thermals than normal atx towers and most common itx cases can even support liquid cooling up to 360mm
@@ebinrock Yea because ventilation is the main issue with apple :|
Also I normally use more than just 1 slot. The M.2 wifi adapter can be replaced by an E-key slot, but the other (RME interface) cannot. Sometimes you need some expansion but not a full ATX.
I kind of miss an ITX build because of the cost for a new case and power supply unit.
But I would love to have one once I save up enough and my current hardware had done 4-6 years of service.
Then I can pack them up, travel between countries and set them up like a mobile base.
It would be a console killer.
Brilliant as ever!
Thank you for the information 😀😀
No problem 👍
I don’t believe towers will go away for a while. They may not be in the mainstream market but may fall to Professional Workstations still and Gaming Markets. GPUs for the gaming market are still 2 and 3 slots, tons of heat and still power hungry. The smaller PCs will probably be in more end user homes and offices where they are more for client systems rather then Heavy Workstation. I understand that you can off load to a virtual server but the cost of that infrastructure is expensive.
gaming is just getting bigger. if for that reason alone this form factor isnt going anywhere
@@dasit6034 unlimited rendering in the lambda process will do gaming in when fixed wireless dominates in 2023
@@dasit6034 yes, mobile gaming
I'm a curmudgeon. I am not giving up my 5.25 bays or optical. HDDs are still way more long-lasting granted you don't try to dribble them like a basketball. I still have old IDE HDDs that are still going strong. My line in the sand is set. If I can't tinker and fix it myself I don't want it.
@@dasit6034 Exactly this. The gaming PC market is the largest and most lucrative one. Especially because the workstation and gaming markets are sort of intertwined and workstations often use gaming PC parts. Towers aren't going anywhere, probably ever. You practically need one if you want to easily install a good watercooling setup.
As already mentioned here in the comments... Computer Shopper magazine (which was roughly the size of a phone book) used to have pages and pages of tower cases in the back of magazine (for home computers, business computers and of course, servers!). I'm keeping my tower case so I can build a RPi cluster inside it one day. 🙂 Thanks for another great video Chris.
As I mentioned to another commenter here, Rosewill Challenger is the modern version of the old PC tower with tons of drive bays. If you ever need to expand, I'd recommend that one!
Nice and very informative
Some niche applications that are not retro:
1. Workstations with multiple graphics cards for parallel GPU computing that needs even more GPU cards than would be required for graphical display. Such things are used for next-generation nucleic acid sequencing and machine learning (and probably other applications that I haven't heard of), although dedicated specialized boxes with embedded hardware also exist.
2. Industrial monitoring and control systems that need specialized boards that just won't fit into the smaller form factors. These often evolve more slowly than consumer-grade hardware. These are often technically rack-mount systems instead of standard towers, but for a rack-mount chassis that actually has to host full-size boards, the size is similar to a standard tower, but normally mounted horizontally instead of vertically..
3. Servers too big for the small form factors but not big enough for rack-mount systems.
Great examples. Thanks for sharing! :)
You put a lot of good points across in this video! 'Hopefully' a lot of the components will still be available for a good few years yet! I don't enjoy using laptops/netbooks for photo or video editing, they cost far more than a desktop, screen size is limited, often not upgradeable (soldered components) & built in obsolescence. I like to be in control of what I build & not by what the manufacturers think I should have! My next build will be a SFF case it'll save me ducking & diving under the desk either to plug things in or to heave the tower out for another upgrade! Thanks Chris for an enjoyable Sunday afternoon with E.C :)
Another great video Chris, thank you for this. I build as well, and I'm trying to get my son into building his own, but I also enjoy pushing the limits with hardware into smaller form factor builds.
Greetings Paul. :)
Speaking for myself, as a home user, I have both tower and laptop PCs. For stationary home use I prefer towers for more cooling, storage and peripheral options. Otherwise, another great, informative presentation. Best regards.
I grew up with my first computer in 1988 and assembled my first computer with a Pentium II. My current computer is more powerful than I ever could have imagined in the 90s running a 5950x 16 core cpu, 32 gigs of ram an 850 watt psu and a 6900 xt video card.
I do think we will see over time less of the components we are used to. We are already limited based on chipset, sockettype, ram type, atx boards etc.
I do think that these sbcs will become more common with soc however i dont think it will destroy video cards. We may see more modular RISC-V and ARM PCBs but you have to remember its still a business. People shell out big money for gpus and they are always out of stock, and more competitors are coming in so I dont necessarily view it as a replacement but another option. For a long time people thought the only option was Intel, AMD, Nvidia and Radeon or Windows and MAC OS X, now Linux is becoming more popular for home use and alt processors, so we will see what the future holds.
I'm old school in that i prefer tower PCs, but then I am 57 so I guess that's to be expected. The space inside isn't wasted in my view, as it allows for plenty of airflow for cooling as well as expansion. Being an electronic musician i use a lot of storage for audio files which can be very large. Maybe not as much as a film maker, but it's a lot. Not been too fussed about graphics accelerators until recently as now there is a new tecnology that uses GPUs as DSPs, so now I am interested.
In fairness, my current laptop is more powerful than any PC I have ever owned, with SSDs and buckets of RAM, but i still prefer a tower in the studio.
I suspect we're going to reach a point where consumer level computers are good enough that they only get replaced when damaged. We're getting pretty close. I had my last PC for about 10 years. I upgraded the hard drive, ram, and processor and a friend's kid has been using it happily for three years now.
Very true.
i5 3rd gen has enough processing power for most basic office users today. For the seniors market segment, we're already there for the entire segment. And that CPU is 10 years old now. Unless the "You will own nothing and be happy" thing happens, I can easily see a day when your LAPTOP is more likely to be older than your CAR.
I think we have been there for years. XP is an excellent OS which is both customizable and powerful. True I now use a Linux box for browsing and frequently use either my 'phone' or tablet to watch RUclips on my 'telly' but no one has come up with a good reason to move to anything else other than 'X is new.'
@@KnowledgeDriven It's up to us all to ensure that "You'll own nothing and be happy" never happens 💪
I had kept on carrying over second hard drives to the next computer that I built. One hard drive, a SCSI HD lasted 12 years. Right now I have one hard drive that is probably about 12 years old now. It is my storage HD. I always have an operating system HD and a storage HD.
I too think 'big tower' when I see PC mentioned. Being a producer/composer, I liked the fact 'PC's' were highly hardware configurable at the get go. I had dreams of a computer controlling patch bays, automating MIDI mixers, playing hardware and software simultaneously in perfect sync. etc. And all this was achievable - the same as building your own dream house or car from scratch! What soundcard is best? What's the best MIDI bay? Yamaha uses FD, SCSI, and SD, while my Roland uses a Zip drive - should I get those on the tower as well? And of course, cost of software to do everything - hopefully smoothly. So what started as a $800 PC with good RAM and HD and all, turned into a $8000.00 box with all the add ons and software et al. So I held off and got a laptop to do 'generic work'. Lo and behold, its soundcard was decent, the cheap 'virtual studio' actually was pretty decent, the VST's and DX instruments played well, and with a USB audio unit hooked up, I had ample MIDI, 1/4", and RCA ins and outs to choose from. Though the laptop was $2000.00 at the time, the music extras may have only been $200-300 for it. YET - I still fantasize of one day getting a tower that would rival all other computers, synthesizers and studio's and make them envious! LOL
While I've enjoyed (and also had my share of stress with) building my own PC twice, I personally wouldn't mind if they make PC's the size of a Rubik's Cube the norm - in fact, I'd welcome it if it were still powerful enough to edit 4K, 8K, or whatever video. In other words, it should have the same or more powerful CPU/GPU/RAM/storage capacity as an advanced traditional tower. The main thing I hope never goes away is the full-size keyboard and mouse, or something very similar. I HATE to type anything on a smartphone or tablet, as I am ALWAYS mistyping on those damn touchscreens. I have a smartphone, yes, but I consider it a necessary evil for on-the-go rather than my preferred go-to computing device. No matter what technology ever comes about, human dexterity is what it is, and will never change. I need large, tactile interfaces and a large enough screen to really do my main work and be comfortable.
What if something goes wrong and it's impossible to open, service and replace the faulty part? Do you just go buy another complete unit setup everything from scratch and download all your data etc. from the cloud.
When someone wants a new *_laptop_* I'm often the one trying to convince them of the benefits of a desktop instead. A large amount of laptop buyers don't even use them as portable computers but they just sit on their desk instead. Same with people buying "all-in-one" computers...
There never be an end to the tower PC simply because people like to build computers themselves and will not settle down for pre-built (mostly) crap😉
Pretty similar to my final conclusion . . . :) But I think the opportunities to build will sadly decline.
@@ExplainingComputers Hopefully they won't. The biggest part of the fun, at least for me, is spending hours comparing and selecting the parts that fit my budget. And after the machine is built, I get a big sense of accomplishment. I am sure that many people feel the same way and won't buy it with the laptops, tablets, etc. which are a nightmare to maintain, upgrade or simply repair.
@@bobbysup I do feel the same 👍
That will eventually not be the cheaper option, and there won't be enough people willing to pay extra just to pick components.
@@GamesFromSpace May be. However, quality components are not cheap now too. Yet, people buy them simply because they enjoy building PCs. Also, when you build your own PC it is unique, that justifies the extra expense😊
Nowadays PC cases have a lot of "wasted space" where one would mount hard drives or optical drives due to the fact that modern components are running hotter and most people don't really need an optical drive or many hard drives, so modern cases leave the main bay mostly empty to make sure case fans can push and pull as much air as possible.
However, some case manufacturers nowadays try and strike a balance between airflow and functionality, so that 5.25" bays and 3.5" mounting can still be achieved with modern airflow oriented design, for those who require such functionality in their cases.
One of my favorite topic PC towers I love having many of really cool have a nice week.
Greetings!
I actually prefer tower. Been using a full-tower and really enjoy it. I love how I can observe the components through the glass panel.
And many have all sort of led lights and cool looking features, it becomes a piece of art, I can't stop glancing at my tower every few minutes.
@@MarkWhich yup. I love it too. Then we know when dust stores up. Always keep my case clean and all the fans spin smoothly.
Well, this is how it's always been, has it not? At first we had gigantic computer mainframes that stretched from wall to wall, and eventually we got PC desktop towers. Now we have smaller towers and mini PC boxes. When it comes to computers, everything gets smaller and smaller over time. Remember all those video game cartridges in the 80's and 90's? Compare those to a Nintendo Switch game. Although they look completely different and are more like a micro card, they are technically still the same kind of thing. This is a phenomenon that will continue far into the future. These modern day mini PC's may look tiny now, but 20 years from now they'll be looking unnecessarily huge. I can already picture them someday being less then half the size of the ones shown at 8:16
Agreed,
Love the large case tower PC. They are so easy to upgrade and it's easy to find components for them. My case is beige and is about 20 years old. I upgrade the CPU about twice as often as the motherboard, and the video card when needed. Before this case I had an AT style but haven't needed to change it since ATX was introduced.
Hi, very interesting video. I'm sure some of the space in the tower is there to allow cooling - which with more efficient ARM chips is less necessary. Plus with the rise in rental of processing power in the cloud accessible from many different types of device, we are heading back in some ways to the dumb terminals connected to a mainframe paradigm. Whether that is good or bad I don't know.
Bad for sure. There is no cloud, it's just somebody else's computer. I'd prefer my files to be on my own computer.
I would argue that the centralization of processing power, with the obvious potential ease of data monitoring, as well as becoming a primary point of failure in multiple ways, the terminal - mainframe model isn't particularly attractive. Some malicious person / group / state could more easily target centralized data centers for attacks of various types, be they data-ransom or destruction, or simply crippling competition by dealing with network infrastructure or power supply.
I think the wider distribution of processing power and data retention offers a more difficult target to bulk vulnerabilities than the mainframe model both in terms of physical and data security for individuals.
I'm sure that others will argue as proponents of the mainframe model, but those proponents should remember that when buying computational power, money is not an infinite resource. Patience in waiting for computer intensive tasks will have a number of benefits.
I think that ideally, a mixture of the models will emerge, where people can buy computational power when most needed, but still have their own systems for routine use is likely to be most effective.
If you do something that is latency sensitive, the cloud is the worst thing you can use. Google Stadia has proven this with other platforms just like it.
I don't think it will ever be a one or the other situation. As an engineer I love the fact that I can spin up an Amazon EC2 instance to test an internal app. Back in the day I would have had to buy a server, find space on an existing server, or find an old computer somewhere which needed updates and may not have the hardware config that I needed.
I wouldn't give up my personal computers though. I'll always have a Linux or FreeBSD machine running somewhere.
I think having the option for most people is fine.
@@mjc0961 It'll be a mix. Remember the rental model allows the flexibility to adapt to near-term demands. Virtualization allows one to move things around easily.