The fact that we don’t know, I think, was exactly the point. We don’t need to know. Whatever was written would be interpreted and twisted to fit the needs of the moment. Just speaks on how well romans understood human psyche. A far more honest and probably more humane solution compared to alternatives plaguing us for the last 1800 years.
Cyclical-history theory. Basically, remixes of things that had already happened, together with vibes-based political theory about how virtues and vices of individuals determine the fate of societies. Typical ancient stuff, really.
This content is exactly why I am happy to be a paid member for this channel - seems like every other youtuber does Rome content designed for the algorithm and not viewers that want to know more about the obscure topics besides gladiators and generals. Happy to pay a dollar a month for stuff I can't find anywhere else.
Thank you so much for this, means a ton to hear that this work really resonates with people. I always want to cover topics beyond the wars or “main characters” of Roman history and it’s the members like you that help make that possible. Thank you so much for the support
My late mum believed these books contained the prophecies regarding the fate of the world; interesting how parts of Roman history found their way to a Polish village in late 20th century
@@RomaInvicta202 My grandmother told me ancient fables about Alexander and his generals, except she replaced Alexander of Macedon with Ghadaffi and his sons. Ancient traditions live long, they just mutate. Remember the whole fable about the bundle of stick? She framed it as Ghadaffi telling his sons that story, to stop them from plunging Libya into a civil war after he died. A lot of those fables are still circulating in Serbia to this day, they are just either attributed to more recent historical figures, or just a timeless allegorical "Tsar"
Are you an oracle or a prohpet or something? I swear its like you know exactly what info I need when I need it. Been working on developing a neo-pragmatic understanding of western culture and history. A part of that is that you can not truly understand somwthing until you understand the knowledge base it emerged from. Roman religion was a huge blindspot and videos like these are incredibly helpful. Thank you!!!
So glad you found it helpful! I love talking about Roman religion because it requires entering into a completely distinct mode of thought which is hard for us to access. Obviously as moderns we can never really do that but simply trying helps make a lot of Rome more legible
@@tribunateSPQR Taking this comment as my periodic reminder that I need to get around to reading The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
First time I’ve heard of these books and I watch quite a bit of content of the Ancient Rome variety. I just finished a multi-hour series on Sulla, so this was a nice little additional context to something still fresh in my mind. Thanks!
4:30 Is this where Catholicism got the tradition of only priests being allowed to read the Bible? Or is that a coincidence? I actually have a small collection of Holy books and weirdly I use them in a similar way to the Romans. When I need a new persepctive or Im going through something I open to a random page and let pattern recognition and rng give me wisdom. Tao Te Ching is particularly good for this. Though.... I wouldnt base an entire society around that... I would also encourage people to read the whole book first. So its not one to one haha
I can't say I know for certain how it intersects with the Catholic doctrine, but I think something that must be mentioned and that I unfortunately neglected to talk about in the episode is that literacy among the nonelite in Greek would have been very low so while they were kept under lock and key - the average pleb wouldn't have lost much sleep over it. I think that's how the Catholic church guarding the bible originated as well - the masses couldn't interpret it but they wouldn't have even tried since they weren't literate and the understanding required came from study they didn't have enough time to pursue.
That is actually a major misconception that people have able the church. Never at any point in the church’s history was there restrictions on who was allowed to read the Bible. The opposite is actually true. While some translations of the Bible where declared heretical and forbidden/discouraged, when it comes to approved bibles translations and other religious texts in line with Catholic doctrine, the reading and teaching of them to laymen was actually encouraged. The Vulgate bible (the Latin translation. most commonly used in historically) was commissioned relatively early in the church’s history (300s) in Latin because that was the most commonly spoken/read language at the time. (Originally the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and new in Greek). However as languages in Europe gradually changed the Vulgate continued to be the preferred translation, despite the number of people able to read/speak diminishing. During the Middle Ages, the average frequency laymen didn’t have education/literacy or access to copies of the bible. In many villages and local communities during that age, frequently the only person who could read or write was the priest at the local church. This wasn’t because the church discouraged literacy, rather because most people during the period neither had the time or reasouces needed to get an education. The church was the only organization at the time that required its clergy to be literate and actively facilitate education among its members. Laymen who actually had the money and connections to get an education (particularly kings and nobles) were expected to be literate and have some knowledge of the Bible.
@@nicholasnelson8641I might add that certain enlightened rulers, such as Alfred the Great, translated parts of the Bible in to the vernacular. These efforts were not condemned by the Church, even if their influence was limited. In the early Middle Ages, education was so scant that clergy would be employed as public servants and judges. They had the education to carry out these functions. The conflict between Henry I and Thomas Becket was due to a misunderstanding: Henry believed that Thomas would make a fine Archbishop because he was such a loyal aide, whereas Thomas was a loyal aide because he was dedicated to his job. When his job changed to being archbishop, he had different responsibilities, and he did not transfer his prior loyalty to the king and thus subvert his loyalty to the Church more broadly. Henry interpreted this as betrayal, and Thomas was killed as a result. By the late Middle Ages, elite boys received good education and would train as lawyers and so forth, and merchants were literate in at least the vernacular. But by then, the scene was being set for the modern world.
Amazing timing .... I just read The Eagle's Prophecy: Eagles of the Empire, Simon Scarrow a month ago ... all covered in there ... slightly different spin ... the woman was an Oracle of Delphi and she returned with less books on multiple visits ...
Thank you! This was a fun one to make and a great topic to get to explore a little further - if there is demand for it I want to keep looking at the lesser known aspects of Roman religion
After Sulla captured Rome and the Sibylline books were burned weren't they lost completely. How would verses have been collected from the countryside have been possible if the Sibylline books were so infrequently read and inaccessible? So wouldn't all future books be just vague collections of poetry and folk tales meant to suit the ruling power at the time and then inherited by the next regime. Great video friend!
Yes - this is almost certainly what happened and why the college was expanded to account for the work and draw on religious expertise from other aristocrats.
We don't know how accurately the reconstituted books reflected the originals but there were sayings attributed to the sibyl in circulation among other Italian communities and I believe their goal would have been to track these down and cross reference them with sayings preserved by memory. But as discussed in the video, these appear to have lacked the full legitimacy of the earlier books, at least in public perception
Even if the Aristocrats genuinely believed in their religious convictions, it certainly must have been useful to have a secret religious text filled with esoteric and prophetic verses which could only be accessed and interpreted by those selected by and from the Aristocrats. Contrast this with a religion like Islam, where all Muslims are encouraged to know the Quran front to back in order to know how to be a good Muslim. You can see in these two examples the radically different cultural contexts these religions existed in, and how religion functioned for each in relation to class and power.
Tribunate i really enjoy your videos. They are very humanizing As to what the books may have contained: mechanisms for social reform, alas rome was not the best place for a chresmologue. It might also have been an epic, like the homeromanteion or the use of the aenid for divination
Who groans beneath the Punic Curse And strangles in the strings of purse, Before she mends must sicken worse. Her living mouth shall breed blue flies, And maggots creep about her eyes. No man shall mark the day she dies.
10:55 When religion serves political or personal goals, people tend to assume that it is just a lie, an excuse. To which i say: If it benefits me, isn't that a very good reason to believe?
Exactly - I talk about this in the video about the basics of Roman religion but as humans we are more primed to believe something is true if it is useful. IF you're an aristocrat and there is a system in place conferring privilege on you because your clan is blessed by the gods - why wouldn't you think that is true?
@@tribunateSPQR I mean... Christianity promises eternal life and forgiveness for all sins. Would they be the biggest religion in the world if not for that?
"Vouchsafed" I LOVE that word! I MUST add it to my vocabulary! I will look it up in the dictionary but, alas, I fear that the definition will be as follows: Vouchsafe - Verb. Of or having to do with vouchsafe. That's about all you get from modern dictionaries.
This was great. But in the beginning you mispronounced a word in a way that made me just howl. 'Brazier' is pronounced as 'bray-zhr' and not as 'brazzeer'. A 'brazzeer' is the female undergarment worn around the bosom, otherwise known as a bra. So, when you referred to a 'burning brazzeer' it took me right back to feminist protests in the 70's. Which I don't think was your intention.
I know I've read somewhere, and it's more than likely folklore of course, but I remember something to the extent of Alexander the Great coming across Romans stating, "I've heard of you Romans and know of your Greek heritage." Which of course makes me think how would he have known that and then go down the rabbit hole with Aeneas fleeing Troy and escaping to the Italian peninsula, and thus Rome would rise over time with the legacy of Romulus and Remus. Then it makes me think the Greeks may have had their own books and were able to have foretold this happening. My theory is that the death of Troy, the fall of one empire, will create another to rise again to conquer Greece. Again, that's just my theory, but it's kind of fun with the "what ifs."
It has been interpreted that the live burial of a pair of gauls and a pair of greeks during Hannibals invasion of italy had a second purpose; to show the greek and gauls/celts that were clients of rome what would happen to them should they side with Hannibal (who presented himself as a liberator from the roman clientship)
really enjoyed the insights in this video, it’s clear you put a lot of effort into explaining the Sibylline Books. however, i can't help but feel like they were more a product of political manipulation than genuine prophecy. like, were they really used for guidance, or just to control the masses? curious to hear what others think!
It's almost, almost like the Shinto worship that these Romans had lived. Go about your day respecting and absent-mindedly worship the gods when it saw fit to your day. But otherwise, no force fed indoctrination of read/know/believe as is required of monotheistic religion. Leave calamity to the experts to figure out how to continue on the massive civilization that was the Rome City in those days, something so different than centuries prior where if it fell, people simply left. (ie Ur )
LOL I was going to say this. I had to double-check how to pronounce “brazier” myself, but I really love the mental image of this old lady standing in front of the king and lighting up her bra like a 60’s feminist.
The fear of angering unknown gods explains Catholicism's affinity for reverencing saints. Catholicism is the re-skinning of Roman paganism to give it a "Christian" veneer, while underneath, it's just the same old polytheism. "Change the label, change the religion", seems to be the Catholic motto and model. Catholicism is NOT a serious religion.
It's not like the "Bible" didn't exist in Roman times. The Romans and the entire hellenistic world however saw the jewish religion as primitive and life-denying. And the Romans, or more exactly the Flavian emperors, produced the "evangelion" and sponsored the creation of rabbinical judaism to undermine this destructive creed.
I'm genuinely curious what sources you have regarding Flavian sponsorship of Judaism. I know they were patrons of Josepheus and had a strange culture built up around Vespasian but not much else. further reading would be welcome
@@PF2015 It's all in Joseph Atwill's books. The second book is actually only half about Shakespeare, but you can learn how Domitian bares his miserable mind and the whole grand plan. Rabbi Zakai's escape, the land grant etc is more of a footnote and not even controversial. I guess in an an era where there is a conscious effort to go back to before Titus' war it is only fitting that we've become capable of seeing this for what it is.
@ember_flux ooh, two thought terminating cliches. That's how you know something is scary :D although i confess I've lost interest upon discovering Atwill is one of those strange people who think Jesus isn't real, and the gospels are astroturf. :D :D
What do you believe was written in the Sibylline Books?
Words in Latin probably
Probably nothing that wouldn't translate roughly into something like The Old Farmer's Almanac.
The fact that we don’t know, I think, was exactly the point. We don’t need to know. Whatever was written would be interpreted and twisted to fit the needs of the moment. Just speaks on how well romans understood human psyche. A far more honest and probably more humane solution compared to alternatives plaguing us for the last 1800 years.
I think a lot of prophecies and contracts with gods.
Cyclical-history theory. Basically, remixes of things that had already happened, together with vibes-based political theory about how virtues and vices of individuals determine the fate of societies.
Typical ancient stuff, really.
This content is exactly why I am happy to be a paid member for this channel - seems like every other youtuber does Rome content designed for the algorithm and not viewers that want to know more about the obscure topics besides gladiators and generals. Happy to pay a dollar a month for stuff I can't find anywhere else.
Thank you so much for this, means a ton to hear that this work really resonates with people.
I always want to cover topics beyond the wars or “main characters” of Roman history and it’s the members like you that help make that possible. Thank you so much for the support
My late mum believed these books contained the prophecies regarding the fate of the world; interesting how parts of Roman history found their way to a Polish village in late 20th century
@@RomaInvicta202 My grandmother told me ancient fables about Alexander and his generals, except she replaced Alexander of Macedon with Ghadaffi and his sons. Ancient traditions live long, they just mutate.
Remember the whole fable about the bundle of stick? She framed it as Ghadaffi telling his sons that story, to stop them from plunging Libya into a civil war after he died.
A lot of those fables are still circulating in Serbia to this day, they are just either attributed to more recent historical figures, or just a timeless allegorical "Tsar"
I always appreciate, what, hard coded subtitles. I don't know how much work goes into it, but it's to my benefite.
Happy that they help and make the content more accessible
Another great example of the Roman attitude: "if it's older it's better"
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it's broke, pretend it isn't
Are you an oracle or a prohpet or something? I swear its like you know exactly what info I need when I need it.
Been working on developing a neo-pragmatic understanding of western culture and history. A part of that is that you can not truly understand somwthing until you understand the knowledge base it emerged from. Roman religion was a huge blindspot and videos like these are incredibly helpful. Thank you!!!
So glad you found it helpful! I love talking about Roman religion because it requires entering into a completely distinct mode of thought which is hard for us to access. Obviously as moderns we can never really do that but simply trying helps make a lot of Rome more legible
@@tribunateSPQR Taking this comment as my periodic reminder that I need to get around to reading The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
A new Tribunate video 🖥️ and ☕️ is a welcome way to start the weekend!
Bene mane dies Saturni, cives!
Thank you!! Was very glad that I got to upload this one on time for you guys!
Alternate title: mysterious woman gets fortune from pure aura…
probably the best roman history channel on this site. Keep it up !!
Thanks so much! Really encouraging to know that people feel that way.
I’ve been binging this channel since I found out about it a week ago
Thanks! Welcome aboard!
I knew Roman aristocrats talked among each other in Greek in some situations, but didn’t know that even their sacred books were written in Greek!
Cato the Elder would have something to say about it😂
Thanks!
Wow! Thank you so much for the support!!
This was really fascinating - haven't really given these much thought before but now I want to know more
Oh, to find these last 3 books! Would a great story that would make!! 😮🙏🏼😊
Fingers crossed they are in Herculaneum (incredibly unlikely but we can always dream)
I think the treatment of sacred books reflects a fundamental difference between Roman religion and the Jewish religion
First time I’ve heard of these books and I watch quite a bit of content of the Ancient Rome variety. I just finished a multi-hour series on Sulla, so this was a nice little additional context to something still fresh in my mind. Thanks!
This is the kind of content I need in my feed.
happy to be of service!
I think it was after consulting the Books that the Romans made their last human sacrifice, during the worst moment of the Second Punic War.
4:30 Is this where Catholicism got the tradition of only priests being allowed to read the Bible? Or is that a coincidence?
I actually have a small collection of Holy books and weirdly I use them in a similar way to the Romans.
When I need a new persepctive or Im going through something I open to a random page and let pattern recognition and rng give me wisdom. Tao Te Ching is particularly good for this.
Though.... I wouldnt base an entire society around that... I would also encourage people to read the whole book first. So its not one to one haha
I can't say I know for certain how it intersects with the Catholic doctrine, but I think something that must be mentioned and that I unfortunately neglected to talk about in the episode is that literacy among the nonelite in Greek would have been very low so while they were kept under lock and key - the average pleb wouldn't have lost much sleep over it. I think that's how the Catholic church guarding the bible originated as well - the masses couldn't interpret it but they wouldn't have even tried since they weren't literate and the understanding required came from study they didn't have enough time to pursue.
That is actually a major misconception that people have able the church. Never at any point in the church’s history was there restrictions on who was allowed to read the Bible. The opposite is actually true.
While some translations of the Bible where declared heretical and forbidden/discouraged, when it comes to approved bibles translations and other religious texts in line with Catholic doctrine, the reading and teaching of them to laymen was actually encouraged.
The Vulgate bible (the Latin translation. most commonly used in historically) was commissioned relatively early in the church’s history (300s) in Latin because that was the most commonly spoken/read language at the time. (Originally the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and new in Greek).
However as languages in Europe gradually changed the Vulgate continued to be the preferred translation, despite the number of people able to read/speak diminishing.
During the Middle Ages, the average frequency laymen didn’t have education/literacy or access to copies of the bible. In many villages and local communities during that age, frequently the only person who could read or write was the priest at the local church. This wasn’t because the church discouraged literacy, rather because most people during the period neither had the time or reasouces needed to get an education. The church was the only organization at the time that required its clergy to be literate and actively facilitate education among its members. Laymen who actually had the money and connections to get an education (particularly kings and nobles) were expected to be literate and have some knowledge of the Bible.
@nicholasnelson8641 This makes a lot more sense than the narrative I was familiar with. Very educational, thanks!!
@@nicholasnelson8641I might add that certain enlightened rulers, such as Alfred the Great, translated parts of the Bible in to the vernacular. These efforts were not condemned by the Church, even if their influence was limited.
In the early Middle Ages, education was so scant that clergy would be employed as public servants and judges. They had the education to carry out these functions. The conflict between Henry I and Thomas Becket was due to a misunderstanding: Henry believed that Thomas would make a fine Archbishop because he was such a loyal aide, whereas Thomas was a loyal aide because he was dedicated to his job. When his job changed to being archbishop, he had different responsibilities, and he did not transfer his prior loyalty to the king and thus subvert his loyalty to the Church more broadly. Henry interpreted this as betrayal, and Thomas was killed as a result.
By the late Middle Ages, elite boys received good education and would train as lawyers and so forth, and merchants were literate in at least the vernacular. But by then, the scene was being set for the modern world.
Amazing video! What a treasure it would be if we could find these books!
Oh internet gods, hear my prayers!
Great video as always
Thank you!
Good episode.
Amazing timing .... I just read The Eagle's Prophecy: Eagles of the Empire, Simon Scarrow a month ago ... all covered in there ... slightly different spin ... the woman was an Oracle of Delphi and she returned with less books on multiple visits ...
Really interesting.
Thank you! This was a fun one to make and a great topic to get to explore a little further - if there is demand for it I want to keep looking at the lesser known aspects of Roman religion
Why do I have to be one of those people that gets bummed out about all of the lost corpora lol.
there's simply so much! It's quite depressing how much we have lost
@@tribunateSPQR I am hopelessly addicted to speculation that can likely never be confirmed. Probably most of us here are to some extent.
I always wanted to know what they were about, thanks!
Glad this helped!
After Sulla captured Rome and the Sibylline books were burned weren't they lost completely. How would verses have been collected from the countryside have been possible if the Sibylline books were so infrequently read and inaccessible? So wouldn't all future books be just vague collections of poetry and folk tales meant to suit the ruling power at the time and then inherited by the next regime. Great video friend!
I believe after they burned the priests who had read the books were asked to try and reconstruct the books as best as they could.
Yes - this is almost certainly what happened and why the college was expanded to account for the work and draw on religious expertise from other aristocrats.
We don't know how accurately the reconstituted books reflected the originals but there were sayings attributed to the sibyl in circulation among other Italian communities and I believe their goal would have been to track these down and cross reference them with sayings preserved by memory. But as discussed in the video, these appear to have lacked the full legitimacy of the earlier books, at least in public perception
@@tribunateSPQR Very interesting! Thank you sir:)
Even if the Aristocrats genuinely believed in their religious convictions, it certainly must have been useful to have a secret religious text filled with esoteric and prophetic verses which could only be accessed and interpreted by those selected by and from the Aristocrats.
Contrast this with a religion like Islam, where all Muslims are encouraged to know the Quran front to back in order to know how to be a good Muslim.
You can see in these two examples the radically different cultural contexts these religions existed in, and how religion functioned for each in relation to class and power.
Tribunate i really enjoy your videos. They are very humanizing
As to what the books may have contained: mechanisms for social reform, alas rome was not the best place for a chresmologue.
It might also have been an epic, like the homeromanteion or the use of the aenid for divination
Who groans beneath the Punic Curse
And strangles in the strings of purse,
Before she mends must sicken worse.
Her living mouth shall breed blue flies,
And maggots creep about her eyes.
No man shall mark the day she dies.
Another excellent episode!!
10:55 When religion serves political or personal goals, people tend to assume that it is just a lie, an excuse. To which i say: If it benefits me, isn't that a very good reason to believe?
Exactly - I talk about this in the video about the basics of Roman religion but as humans we are more primed to believe something is true if it is useful. IF you're an aristocrat and there is a system in place conferring privilege on you because your clan is blessed by the gods - why wouldn't you think that is true?
@@tribunateSPQR I mean... Christianity promises eternal life and forgiveness for all sins. Would they be the biggest religion in the world if not for that?
Please do more videos on Roman religion, especially during the Republican years, fascinating stuff
I could talk about it forever as I find it very fascinating. For me the biggest challenge is not to do a religion episode every week!
liked the video -=wish there was more specific information
Hey bro didn't you have a channel on dark history of roman emperors?
No, this is the first and only channel I’ve ever had
Thank you
"Vouchsafed" I LOVE that word! I MUST add it to my vocabulary! I will look it up in the dictionary but, alas, I fear that the definition will be as follows:
Vouchsafe - Verb. Of or having to do with vouchsafe.
That's about all you get from modern dictionaries.
Nice
Fascinating, thanks for sharing!
I guess it's "proof" that you should fake it till ya make it/get the deal.
More like this
This was great. But in the beginning you mispronounced a word in a way that made me just howl. 'Brazier' is pronounced as 'bray-zhr' and not as 'brazzeer'. A 'brazzeer' is the female undergarment worn around the bosom, otherwise known as a bra. So, when you referred to a 'burning brazzeer' it took me right back to feminist protests in the 70's. Which I don't think was your intention.
I know I've read somewhere, and it's more than likely folklore of course, but I remember something to the extent of Alexander the Great coming across Romans stating, "I've heard of you Romans and know of your Greek heritage." Which of course makes me think how would he have known that and then go down the rabbit hole with Aeneas fleeing Troy and escaping to the Italian peninsula, and thus Rome would rise over time with the legacy of Romulus and Remus. Then it makes me think the Greeks may have had their own books and were able to have foretold this happening. My theory is that the death of Troy, the fall of one empire, will create another to rise again to conquer Greece. Again, that's just my theory, but it's kind of fun with the "what ifs."
It has been interpreted that the live burial of a pair of gauls and a pair of greeks during Hannibals invasion of italy had a second purpose; to show the greek and gauls/celts that were clients of rome what would happen to them should they side with Hannibal (who presented himself as a liberator from the roman clientship)
Where are they now. Surely we could consult the Anna Aki
really enjoyed the insights in this video, it’s clear you put a lot of effort into explaining the Sibylline Books. however, i can't help but feel like they were more a product of political manipulation than genuine prophecy. like, were they really used for guidance, or just to control the masses? curious to hear what others think!
Thanks
Are you sure that the Vatican doesn’t have a copy of at least one of the three Sibylline books
Bump
2:46 Just a brief note: Brazier is pronounced "BRAY-zher" whereas "bra-ZEER" is how you pronounce brassiere (as in a bra)
It's almost, almost like the Shinto worship that these Romans had lived. Go about your day respecting and absent-mindedly worship the gods when it saw fit to your day. But otherwise, no force fed indoctrination of read/know/believe as is required of monotheistic religion. Leave calamity to the experts to figure out how to continue on the massive civilization that was the Rome City in those days, something so different than centuries prior where if it fell, people simply left. (ie Ur )
a bit late but buddy!! straight into my veins
brazier is not pronounced as brassiere. Or maybe the old woman pulled out her brasserie in front of Tarquin?
LOL I was going to say this. I had to double-check how to pronounce “brazier” myself, but I really love the mental image of this old lady standing in front of the king and lighting up her bra like a 60’s feminist.
Especially bad when it’s a flaming brassiere!
She had a burning brassiere? Sounds painful.
The fear of angering unknown gods explains Catholicism's affinity for reverencing saints. Catholicism is the re-skinning of Roman paganism to give it a "Christian" veneer, while underneath, it's just the same old polytheism. "Change the label, change the religion", seems to be the Catholic motto and model.
Catholicism is NOT a serious religion.
Damn. So every single Christian up until the Reformation was a pagan ?
!
Jens
Latin original
The public was illiterate and could not read the books.
It's not like the "Bible" didn't exist in Roman times. The Romans and the entire hellenistic world however saw the jewish religion as primitive and life-denying. And the Romans, or more exactly the Flavian emperors, produced the "evangelion" and sponsored the creation of rabbinical judaism to undermine this destructive creed.
I'm genuinely curious what sources you have regarding Flavian sponsorship of Judaism.
I know they were patrons of Josepheus and had a strange culture built up around Vespasian but not much else. further reading would be welcome
@@PF2015 It's all in Joseph Atwill's books. The second book is actually only half about Shakespeare, but you can learn how Domitian bares his miserable mind and the whole grand plan. Rabbi Zakai's escape, the land grant etc is more of a footnote and not even controversial. I guess in an an era where there is a conscious effort to go back to before Titus' war it is only fitting that we've become capable of seeing this for what it is.
no offense this sounds like an antisemitic conspiracy theory
@ember_flux ooh, two thought terminating cliches. That's how you know something is scary :D
although i confess I've lost interest upon discovering Atwill is one of those strange people who think Jesus isn't real, and the gospels are astroturf. :D :D
@@PF2015 Your ridiculous, semiliterate response confirms that this is an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
lol. No mention of the Drugs. No mention of Medea.
🚮🚮🚮
Haha it’s pronounced “bray-zhr” not brassiere. 😂