What an excellent explanation. Thank you so much. I've been sitting here with a cup of coffee just scribbling notes and understanding everything. I love it when I find someone who clicks with how I learn. This video is very appreciated and I'll be referring classmates to this for help. Still good in 2020!
Thank you very much for posting this video. I've asked several repair shops how a pump works; even going as far as offering cash and none explained this as well as you just did. Thank you thank you thank you. I will be more confident on my next repair.
instructordave111 Thank you very much for the video. I recently tore down a DB, not DB2, which appears to be the same internally other than the distributor portion. I read the service manual's description of operation thoroughly, but your video made it all come together. I appreciate you taking the time to make this.
Brilliant video and explanation. Thanks for sharing. I'm trained on Bosch, Delphi and Denso, and these Stanadyne pumps have always been a bit of a mystery for me. This video helped me a lot. Cheers.
Very happy after watching this very clearly narrated video of the very pump that I have recently had trouble with. Now this is clear to me why we had a problem. Thanks so much for such an effort.
Happy that it is able to help. I made the video for my diesel class. I figured they could watch it after class when they might be wondering what it was that they weren't paying attention to all day!! LOL
Wonderful breakdown of the Stanadyne system! I learned a ton watching this. I entered diesels not long ago, after 20 total years as an auto mechanic, 15 of those 20 spent with motorcycles, and now 2 years into diesel, learning and experimenting as much as I can. Currently, servicing my '91 6.2 Detroit has been a wonderful experience in learning how the deeper mechanical parts of diesels work, as well as how to understand the complex systems in play when they are running correctly.
It’s called the “DB-2” because D. B. Cooper invented it and it was his second design. Soon after, he successfully hijacked Flight 305 and parachuted from the Boeing 727 with $200,000. In 1971, $200,000 was a lot of money. He disappeared and, sadly, never realized the success of his now famous Injector Pump breakthrough.
If anyone believes that one, I have some land in Florida that NEVER gets flooded, and I can get you a great price on the Brooklyn Bridge if you have cash.
I can imagine that it took some time to machine all the injection pump parts to expose the many passageways.. Excellent work. I've always wondered how these little rotary monsters did their work, and now have a better understanding of what controls my old 6.2 GM Detroit. I have recently acquired a late 90s 6.5L Turbo Detroit, with the PCM controlled Stanadyne DS4 electronic injection pump. If there are videos of this nature describing their inner workings I'd greatly appreciate viewing them!
I don't know of any cutaway type videos of the DS4 pump, but the ecm would be controlling the metering, governor and timing of the pump rather than being mechanical components. The guy that did this video may be a resource for you. ruclips.net/video/qWAZhEM-CKg/видео.html Good Luck.
In the automotive world they are considered Detroits starting with the 5.7 series, no it is not technically correct but it is an accepted term, it separates the miserable GM designed engines from the Isuzu designed GM engines. @@johngnipper8768
Great video. I have a 1981 Oldsmobile 98 Diesel and it has an injection pump that looks just like the one in this video. More Injection pump videos please. Thanks
You may have an issue with the control on the metering valve or a governor linkage issue. the CAV pumps work a bit differently than the Roosa Master design in this video. I don't have a CAV video to reference on this.
you greatness is impossible to understate. I would like more information on the shut off solenoid and the different parts needed to move to turn the metering valve and the injection pump to ON.
Thank you Yubal, The shutoff solenoid forces the metering valve to the NO fuel position when there is no electrical power applied to it. Once the ignition is turned on the solenoid is energized to create an electromagnet, which pulls in the stop lever and allows the metering valve to go to full fuel. The spring forces the linkages and levers inside to move the valve to full fuel. Once the engine is started the flyweights counteract the spring and cause the metering valve to adjust the fuel quantity to match the speed and load desired by the operator.
Sorry Armand, I apologize for not seeing this. Yes a delivery valve that is sticking open or has debris on the seat would allow drops of fuel to enter the cylinder via the injector tip. It is there to provide a quick BOI and EOI and maintain a head pressure in the line, without it there would be some unatomized fuel drops getting by. Sorry once again for missing this question.
Thank you so much for this video! Your detailed explanation especially the part about the return being blocked lead me to disconnect the return to tank and connecting a catch container, this got the truck running again! I would have never imagined a blocked return could stop the engine from running otherwise. Now to find why the return is restricted and correct that issue. I’m thinking an issue with the tank selector valve since the truck has dual fuel tanks.
I am happy that this helped you out. If the fuel can't get out the plunger pressures equalize on each end and will no longer be able to pump fuel. Check for a kinked return line. I learned that from working on a truck for a guy who had stepped on his while washing his windshield. Good Luck.
@@instructordave111 Working on 7.3 IDI I just replaced all of the caps and return lines on the engine so it’s something from the engine towards the tank out of all the videos that I watched trying to learn as much as possible yours is the only one that mentioned a blocked or clogged return line The only video that mentioned anything close to the subject was only the possibility of the check ball on top of the pump being stuck thanks again for the information and knowledge
If you read all the comments below you will see one by Ernie Johnson of Johnson cutaways. He is the one who made these sorts of excellent training tools.
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
With our description I suggest that you open the inspection window to see if the internal rotor is turning when cranking the engine. If not you may have a broken pump drive shaft.
That will depend on the speed the engine is turning. The injection pressure can be as low as 2000 psi at idle or slow speed and up to 25,000 psi at maximum engine speed.
With the three injector lines undone at the IP should fuel squirt out, even if it is out of time. Also pulled the top off, shutoff moves back and forth like it should, put it back together. Now not getting fuel in the bowl, plenty of fuel flow to the IP pump.
Hi Tom, if there is fuel in the pump, the internal transfer pump is working properly and the metering valve is not in the fuel shut off position it should deliver fuel from the high pressure ports. Possibly the transfer pump is not working or the differential pressure valve is stuck in the open position. the electric lift pump is only there to deliver fuel to the internal transfer pump, which is there to deliver fuel at varying transfer pressures to the high pressure side of the pump. If this pump had any water in it and sat for a period of time some of the internal components may be frozen in place. It is actually not a complicated system, but many things have to work together at the same time to make the pump do what it was designed to do. .From your description it seems like the system from the tank to the inlet is working so whatever is the issue is in the pump Keep at it and let me know what you find.
Due to the design of the pump, I would not use air to try to free them up as there may be water or dirt in the air you are using. You may be able to pressurize the fuel pressure test port but you would have to be careful to not over do it and damage some of the internal components. You should be able to apply the same pressure as the pump would see at high rpm. You would need to check your specs for your pump to determine that. Due to the very minimal tolerances inside the pump I would not hold out much hope for this to work. Good luck !
Sorry I missed this question. The pressure test port is the black hex head plug near the top right side of the pump body in the beginning of the video. Hopefully you found the answer .
If I had been more patient and watched the entire video, I would have had my question answered! Whenever I have a pump rebuilt and they replaced the delivery valve, is the new valve lapped or mated in some other fashion to the seat in the rotor shaft?
The dv is softer metal than the bore. So it wears but the bore does not. The dv maintains psi in the injection line, approx 500 psi less than injection psi. It helps the engine run smoother. Without it. The injection line to the injector would drop to no psi after each cycle, requiring more fuel to replenish the psi, and would cause a delay. All modern injection pumps utilize them.
Great Video!! Thanks for the explanations you gave, but I do have a question. Can you use this pump without a sending/lifting pump? What are the consequences? Thank you!
Rodrigo Bulman, you may be able to run it that way if the fuel tank is above the pump so it gets some head pressure. Generally there needs to be 3 to 5 psi and enough fule flow for the pump to work properly. Low power and hard start would be the first consequences that you notice.
That is a very good tutorial. I have a question that has bugged me for along time, if the metering valve controls how much fuel is sent to the plungers and we know the plungers only move apart in relation to the amount of fuel delivered through the metering valve then how in the world does turning the screw that controls maximum plunger travel affect the fuel delivery? Is it because there are times when the plunger travel limits the amount of fuel the metering valve delivers, if so that would only be in a max fuel state yes?
Yes you are correct the only time the metering valve is not the limiting factor is at maximum fuelling stage. The fuel, in that stage, between the plungers push them up against the spring ends. Adjusting the screw inwards increases max fuel delivery by compressing the spring and moving the spring ends out. the opposite occurs if the screw is turned the opposite way, which allows the spring ends to move in towards the plungers.
Thank you so much for your help and I wish if there is more videos about diesel pump thank you thank you thank you is there is any video for the burkins 3 cylinder
Hi Rick, There is a "weep hole"in the area between the two Fuel cup seals that is there to let you know the seals are failing. Do not JB weld over this hole or you will end up with the fuel getting into the oil pan and that will cause a bunch more engine issues. The cup seals can be changed by you if you are a little bit mechanically inclined. Set the engine at #1 cylinder on compression using the Cummins pin , make a mark from the pump housing to the front cover, remove the fuel lines from the pump, remove the pump from the engine ( you may need a puller to loosen the gear from the tapered shaft. Don't lose the key into the engine when you do that part. Remove the pump drive shaft and change the cup seals. Some manufacturers sell a seal installer tool when you get the new seals. When you reinstall the pump driveshaft, make sure the seals don't flip back using the tool and absolutely be sure the driveshaft timing marks are lined up inside the pump. When everything is apart, be sure that the engine or the pump do not move or resetting the timing could be an issue. Good Luck with your project.
+themadmailler The plungers are forced outwards by the incoming "metered" amount of fuel and then as the rotor turns the rollers contact the internal cam lobes and force the plungers back inwards towards each other. As the fuel is pushed from the area between the plungers the distribution port comes into alignment with the rotor and the fuel, under pressure, is delivered to the injector. I hope that is what you are looking for.
For anyone.....rebuilt DB in 64 jd3020. No fuel coming out ports. How smooth them plungers have to move back and forth? And would you say that they are spred out most the time so the cam hits them and drive that pressure?
Kenneth, the plungers must be absolutely free to move in and out. And because of the speed of the pump, they are always out unless the cam ring lobes are forcing them inward. As soon as they have rotated past the lobe,transfer pump psi pushes them outward to be charged for the next injection.
Injected quantity is based on both the metering valve position (charge pressure, same as transfer pressure at wide open throttle) AND the charge duration which decreases with increased RPM. This is offset with the increased transfer pressure with RPM. Lower case pressure increases fueling as well as slightly advances timing since transfer pressure pushes the servo piston, rotating the cam ring. On the opposite side of this piston is case pressure.
You could adjust the plunger spring to allow for slightly more fuel or put in the pumping assembly from a higher horsepower pump as it will deliver more fuel. The easiest way is to just install the higher horsepower pump and injectors. These are not as easy to hot rod as the inline pumps are.
Hi Fergie, The pump would be built to coincide with the engine rotation. This pump is a demonstration piece and my explanation mY take some artistic license to explain the operation of the pumps components. Be sure that any fuel pump work is based on proper knowledge of the engine you are working in.
If you have a fuel pump that fuel is getting into the pump through the inlet line but fuel is not exiting through the ports that go to the injectors, what could be the issue? Fuel is flowing in to the pump and then out through the return line.
+Randall P You may have a high pressure pump shaft that is broken, you may have an inlet valve that is not working, you may have an electric solenoid that is missing a wire or a ground or a fuse that won't allow the pump to go from shut off to run position. I will need more information to be more accurate in my diagnosis of your issue.
Sounds like quite a lot off possible things. Well the fuel stop or shutoff solenoid does work. Removed the pump and the gear that connects to the shaft is good. Before I got it, the owners put water in the tank. So drained that and the fuel water separator twice. Then put new fuel in. That's about all I can add. And thank your taking the time to reply
+Randall P There are many things that can cause your issue. I am wondering if the water that was in the tank got into the pump and the opposed plungers are rusted in place. The only thing that forces them apart is the transfer pressure fuel. If they are rusted in place they can not develop the pressure to force fuel into the injectors. Sounds like you may have a very contaminated fuel pump if water has been in there for any length of time. Please let me know what you find. Still I am just pointing out things that could cause the issue you have described.
That was awesome! I have been trying to figure out why my pump is not distributing fuel and now I think it's because the rotor isn't moving. Any idea what would cause that?
Possibly a broken drive shaft, but that is generally due to a siezed pump. You can take the timing/inspection window off of the side to see if the pump is turning when the engine cranks. keep us posted on what you find.
neat video. is their a place where i can TEST the transfer pump pressure ? i have a Stanadyne DB4 pump on my john deere tractor, if the tractor sits for a couple days it chuggs black / white smoke when it starts until i rev up the engine, then it runs great all day, and re-starts just fine, untill it sits a few days, then rough idle again. i think i have a problem with the internal transfer pump? maybe the transfer pump veins are sticking in, and not pushing out to grab fuel to pump??
Thank you. Sounds like you may have a bit of a drainback or leakdown issue. In the first few seconds of the video you can see the black hex bolt just to the right and up from the timing window. You should be able to measure transfer pressure there. Make sure the lift pump is doing its job before condemning the fuel pump transfer pump.
have case 580e backhoe the engine will start and run only if i actuate the hydraulics, load on engine makes it run? i need to fix this, trying to understand, worse than mg or vw lol
I don't think it has anything to do with the fuel pump. Sounds like you may have a hydraulic relief valve or unloader valve issue. Possibly the hydraulic pressure prevents the engine from turning the pump unless you manually give the oil a place to go. Good luck.
stop solenoid wire got pulled, linkage no longer connected, when you opened it up?? Pretty wide open as to the cause of the issue. Go back through the steps of your repair.
Hi my name is Matthew Lazarin. Your video has taught me alot. But I'm still having a lack of knowledge on how or what would cause a runaway on the 6.2 diesel gmc. I believe I was the that caused it to do so but not to sure EXACTLY HOW IT WOULD DO SO. I recently was out at the dunes doing some off Roading. I stoped on a hill going downwards. 1 min passes and the engine shuts off. Do I decided to push the truck to a level ground so see if the pick up pump was able to suck fuel up. Still nothing. No start. Then I opened the pressure dome and decided to move the linkage inside thinking that maybe something got bound up inside. Do I closed is all up I cranked it over and the engine decided to RUNAWAY from me past governor limits. I was able to shut it off about 30 40 seconds later. So when I was able to bring it home after being towed I decided to try it again and crank it over once I crank it over I decided to run away again for me but I was able to shut it off again by choking out the air flow to the engine. So now I've just left it all alone and I've been trying to do a lot of research on how or what would have caused this run away how can I fix it hopefully you can reply back to this or email me or maybe even call me MatthewLazarin@yahoo.com
Matthew Laced Hi Matthew, I am guessing that first the engine may have died due to the pick up tube getting some air ( fuel level very low or a cracked tube possibly from the off roading fuel slosh action ?) Second when the linkage was moved around in the housing did a lever become disconnected inside? the governor is not controlling the fuelling to pull back on the fuel when the engine overspeeds. Maybe the metering valve became disconnected and is now letting wide open fuel enter the pumping chamber. That is why the electric or manual shutoff lever isn't doing it's job because it can't rotate the metering valve back to closed. You will have to carefully inspect the linkage again. Try reading this article. Good Luck @0809
instructordave111 looks like the link didn't work. Google search "Stanadyne DB2 Injection Pump" there is a good article in Dieselpower magazine about it.
yeah that's what I was thinking that the fuel wasn't getting through the tube shut the truck off. From what I've seen nothing has been disconnected, but I will go outside and check to see if anything is disconnected, I'm also kind of curious on how exactly you put the pressure dome back on correctly. I will write back when I'm finished looking at the linkage .
This is such an awesome video, thank you for sharing. I currently have an engine I swapped in and am trying to get going. I have my IP off my old engine on there and I wasn't able to get it going. I put an electric pump on the frame rail in place of the mechanical pump, it used to fill the return line as soon as the key was on, but now it barely makes it out of the pump. I'm thinking the pump is plugged. What are your thoughts?
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I will need a bit more info as you don't mention if the engine tries to fire up and wont keep running, are you getting any smoke from the exhaust, what is the engine that you swapped the injection pump off of and on to?? There could be many things that prevent the engine from starting, is it timed correctly, is the return check ball plugged, does fuel flow when you remove the fitting on the top of the pump? Check a few more things and maybe we can get it sorted out. Dave
+instructordave111 Thanks for the reply dave...my new compression tester came in last night...and told me that the engine is coming out...first cylinder was 5psi, second was 200...I didn't bother checking the rest after that. Just two bellhousing bolts holding it in at this point, I'm pulling it out the rest of the way after work. I'm kind of glad, because I'm pretty damn good with these engines and I was just so stumped as to what was going on and why I couldn't get it running. It's getting a 120k mile running 7.3 now. Thanks again for the reply.
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I'm glad you found the issue. Low compression is really bad for starting a diesel.Good Luck with the next engine. 7.3's were a great engine, just loud when cold.
There is a drilled passage that allows transfer pressure fuel to act upon the advance piston. As the speed increases the transfer pressure also increases and the advance piston is moved against the spring even further to advance the BOI.
Could you make a video on how to replace the cup seals? Or just tell me in reply to my comment. I am not able to remove the distributor. What is the easiest way to replace the seals? Thanks
EvenStar LoveAnanda Unless you have a gear drive that can be removed from the front of the engine, you will not be able to change the cup seals without removing the pump drive shaft. The pump drive shaft needs to slide out from the front of the Stanadyne DB2 pump and there is a special tool that you can probably borrow to install the shaft with the new cup seals. It is designed to keep the seals from flipping over on installation. Also make sure you have the pump shaft timing marks in the correct position or you will be out by 180 degrees of pump rotation. check this bulletin from Stanadyne @559
That was a great lesson. My old F250 will all of a sudden run weak like a gas engine that is low in ignition timing. I can feel it all of a sudden loose a bunch of power. It usually starts the day running good and at some point will loose power but still drive out. From what I understood here is it the return line stopping up ? Or is there other culprits besides the return system? Thanks.
Phil Lowman it could be a return line issue if there is a kink in the pipe or a damaged hose somewhere. It could something as simple as a tank or fuel cap vent that is not working properly. Does it white smoke when it goes to low power? You may have an area in the suction line that is sucking air. Check the simple stuff first
I have a 70's 644-aa loader that has this pump. Freshly rebuilt 407 jd engine and i have the problem of the pump overfueling causing hard starting, hot or cold and alot of smoke. Can this pump be turned down or up or does pump wear cause the overfueling?
I am assuming that the engine was rebuilt, but the pump was not? What makes you believe it is over fuelling? A worn pump should actually inject less fuel than too much due to extra internal leakage. Was the pump timed to the engine properly when the engine was rebuilt? What color smoke do you have, white or black ? Set engine to TDC on No 1 cylinder and then open inspection window to see if the timing marks on the pump line up. If the pump is off by 1 degree at the pump it is 2 degrees off in the cylinder timing.
Thanks for commenting back. Yes your correct. the motor is fresh from the crank up but the pump is not. I had a local j.d mechanic time the pump and engine but you never know. The smoke is black and thick. As soon as you hit the starter button, here comes the smoke rings. I have to either it every time we start it. It runs great once started, good power no oil loss, but rolls coal all the time as they say, but if it sits for 5 min, back to the juice we go. Im a gas mechanic so diesel engines are kind of left field for me. I will check the pump timing through that window and see what i get. Anymore input you might have on this is highly appreciated and thank you for taking the time to info me.
leanne brown No problem, since it is a 70's vintage engine, there would be no emissions equipment on it, is it turbocharged? Did you have the injectors tested. Black smoke is either too much fuel or not enough air. Too much fuel can be due to the pump being adjusted for more fuel than the engine can use or the injectors allowing more fuel to flow into the cylinder than normal. How was it running before the rebuild? Hard starting could be from incorrect pump timing, unatomized fuel from worn injectors or worn cylinders not developing pressure to fire the injectors. I know you said you had good power, but if it's black smoking you had better keep an eye on overheating the engine and this could also wash down the cylinders and ruin the rings, pistons and cylinder walls ( Sort of like having pre-ignition in a gas engine). Verify that the air intake system is completely clear and the filter is clean and then you may need to have the injectors and the pump tested. Good Luck and let me know what you find out.
The injectors are all rebuilt. She is turbocharged. I believe someone turned the fuel up back in the day cause it was wore slick out when we bought it and rebuilt it. Extreme blow-by, but it starts and black smokes like it did before the rebuild. john deere said you couldn't turn up delivery on these pumps that you could only adjust rpm so that confused me. Intake,filters and all are great. Everything gone through except the pump. Can these stanadyne pumps be turned up and down?
leanne brown You are more than likely correct about the pump being adjusted for more fuel or a pump from a more powerful engine was installed on the loader. There is a leaf spring inside the pump that can be adjusted to change the maximum amount of fuel the pump can deliver, but it requires disassembly of the pump to do it. Nothing external that would make it easy to do. Here is a very good article about how this pump is constructed and how it works. www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0809dp_stanadyne_db2_injection_pump Check to be sure the pump is the one for that particular engine if not then it may be best to exchange the pump for the one that is supposed to be on that engine. Running the engine in an over fuelling condition is going to take the engine out again.
YEE-BOE People have done home rebuilds , but these pumps require some very precise timing and internal clearances that most home DIYers don't have access too. Good Luck
Roosa master 5/32 hex driver. You must remove the governor spring assy. Then manual rotate engine until screw head is visible inside the top hole of the cam ring. One flat of the hex driver is all you want to turn the screw. It’s that sensitive! Approx. 10% more fuel. Perkins usually used a cav, Lucas rotary pump. Fuel adjustment is: remove side timing cover. Rotate pump to expose one of two hold down screws. Loose it just a little. Rotate until other screwhead is exposed, loosen it. Now you can carefully rotate plate a tiny bit to allow shoe to travel out further. Tighten screw, rotate again and tighten first screw. It’s worth mentioning that neither of these is recommended for those not familiar with these pumps. To many things can get screwed up. Also, these pumps are always calibrated, cranking them up, leads to excessive smoke, poor fuel mileage, sometimes messing up other settings, such as timing, high and low idle, even transfer pump psi. Which could destroy the pump. Bring it to a pump shop!
Thanks for the video. I have a question if I could , I just reassembled A DB 2 pump on a 6.2 diesel out of a 1982 Chevrolet pick up and it has a surge and low power I was wondering if I would have assembled that pump a 180ﾟ out of time would it have even run . The truck will run and drive just low power and annoying idle . Thank you .
Could be a few things, governor linkages could be misaligned or binding, pump out by 180 would surprise me if it ran at all, check that the return line is clear and the check ball is in the return line fitting. Lift pump getting enough fuel to the transfer pump.
Hi! It's an interesting video and very practical. I have a problem with a gen set when I start the engine, it start out of frequency range and decrease slowly the rpm until reach the nominal frecuency. This occurs in about 1:30 minutes. Why could happen that? Thanks!
Based on limited information and assuming the genset is equipped with this type of fuel pump. I would guess that there may be something that is keeping the fly weights from bringing the rpms down to the speed setting for you generator. Spring settings may have been adjusted to a higher speed than is required. Hard to give a definitive answer from a distance.
@@AmalgmousProxy injection pressure makes the pump very hard to turn. If the keyway is missing the shaft may just be rotating inside the pump or the gear is rotating on the shaft depending on what type of setup you have.
@@instructordave111 DB4. John Deere engine. It got bad fuel in it and lost pulses, sat for 2 years. Disassembled looking for damage and only found gunked front filter. Still no pluses. Beginning to suspect the wire bleeder is plugged and holding air inside after looking at the video.
@@AmalgmousProxy Good call, also it could be the outlet check ball stuck and not allowing return fuel to flow. That would equalize pressure on the plungers and stop them from pumping fuel. Does the fuel flow when ou remove the pressure check plug on the side of the pump? (The black plug on the upper right side of the housing in the first frame of the video)
Instructor Dave, how could I reach you. I'm having a problem with a stanadyne db2 "running away" at a certain rpm almost as if the governor isn't responding quick enough to the fuelling. (Steady throttle equals slight run away with 1/4 throttle being wide open response from pump)
Is this happening under engine load or just by revving the engine? A diesel engine with no load will rev to the governor with very little throttle input. If it is happening under load then there is more than likely a mechanical problem in the pump with one of the components that connect the flyweights to the inlet metering valve system.
Both Cup seals visible in the video face towards the interior of the pump and 1 other that is not visible in the video, faces the other direction to prevent oil from entering the pump housing.
Could be many things. start with the easy stuff, misaligned cables or linkage, kinked return lines etc. Internally it could be dirty fuel, flyweight not reacting or stuck, inlet valve issues, regulating valve issues, sticking check ball. Rebuilt doesn't mean operating correctly. My apologies to your rebuilder, we all miss things once in a while
I have one question tho... If transfer quantity determines how far apart the plungers move than isnt the timimg affected by the fuel quantity. As in the regular plunger pump the plunger starts building pressure at the beginning of the stroke and quantity is regulated with a bleed port. But in this configuration in low fuel quantities wont the plunger start building pressure later thus affecting the timing? I am sure i am missing something here i have come across this type of pump a few times and it causes sleepless nights not understanding how it works, hope you can answer me or link me tawards something that can. Thank you in advance!
The lower helix plunger is the one you are referencing as a comparison to this pump. There is also an upper helix plunger that works similar to how the timing is affected by the plungers and fuel quantity in this distributor pump. I also have a video explaining the function of both of those. You are correct in that the quantity of fuel affects the BOI (beginning of Injection) timing in the distributor pump. The EOI (End of Injection) is fixed as far as the rollers and plungers reaching the top of the internal cam lobe. The effect of this is when the engine is at low fuel requirements and low speed, the later BOI allows the cylinder to build a little more heat to allow for better ignition of the fuel. At higher speeds and fuel requirements the piston speed increases the temperature quicker and the resulting advancement of the BOI allows the combustion event to start sooner so it can be completed at the proper point in the pistons travel. I hope that helps and lets you sleep better.
Very helpful. So if I want to increase the overall amount of fuel that's available do I increase the size of the plungers and the metering valve or will increasing the size of the plungers do the trick? Thanks to anyone who can answer this question.
To increase fuel delivery on this pump, you can adjust the roller spring to allow the plungers to deliver the max fuel that they are designed for, but you can not change to bigger plungers etc. These pumps are only good for up to approximately 250 hp and then you are better off to go to an inline style pump for more fuel delivery capabilities. I'm sure there are instances where someone has a pump like this at more than 250 hp but those would be limited instances. IMHO
Thanks for the info. About 250 HP is about what I'm looking for out of this particular build. I know there are a couple of companies out there that are getting close to 200cc out of the pumps that are available for the 7.3 IDI. I'm not looking to get more than maybe 110cc out of a pump and since I have a couple that are currently not working I thought I would try to do it myself rather than pay several hundred to someone else. Worse case scenario it doesn't work and I have to order a pump but I learn something about these pumps in the process.
Parent of Twins if you are willing to experiment and learn something that is great. Just make sure you are working in as clean a place as possible. These wont tolerate any dirt getting into them. Measure the spring height and then tighten the screw to allow the rollers to deliver more fuel. Good luck.
Altering the profile of the metering valve can alter the torque curve. As for increasing flow or volume, you can have the plungers ground shorter and a custom cam ring with a faster rise and longer stroke to match the shorter plungers. There are many machine shops out there who could make the cam and regrind your plungers for a reasonable price. Another option is to just recut the profile of the cam without altering the plunger. A larger base circle would increase stroke length of the plungers . These are nice purpose built pumps with room for some fun. If someone was ambitious enough, a split shot cam profile could be produced.
Wow. I finally get how the plungers work! I have an old 6.2 in a suburban that I let sit for a couple years, and now my plungers are stuck. No output. Tried soaking the pump in 180 degree canola oil, but still no output spinning by hand with an electric fuel pump inputing diesel. Removed the metering valve while soaking. Any quick advice for freeing up the plungers before I give up and get a rebuild? Can't afford $700! Thanks for your work. Really helping me get how it works.
+Washington D. Sastor Once the plungers are seized, there is not much that can be done other than a tearing the pump down and if there was any water sitting in there they may be rusted in place. Are you sure it's the plungers that are not working?
I'm afraid your pump will need to be removed and rebuilt if the plungers are stuck. You may try filling the pump with fuel conditioner, but I doubt that you will have any success just trying that. If they got some water in them they will likely be rusted in place.
jeff payne how does it run? Do a spill back test into a large bucket to see if you are getting enough return fuel. These pumps naturally aerate the return fuel to a certain extent. Maybe internal transfer pump issue, loose or pressure regulating valve not set correctly. Seals would leak from weep hole or dilute the engine oil. Keep me posted on what you find.
instructordave111 She runs like a top when i get her primed. New injectors, pump is about a year or so old. Very few miles since install at a reputable shop. Started and drove fine for about 6 weeks after injectors installed. Then one morning, no start. Fuel from return line had bled back to tank. Isolated the air intrusion with clear lines and can watch fuel bubbles leave pump. If i turn truck off, and immediagly restart, no problem. If she sits more then 10 seconds she loses prime and must be reblead. After hours of research ,i am believing the seals in pump are shot, thus creating an internal vacuum when shut off and filling return with air. Thank you for your time both in posting a very informative video, and responding so promptly.
jeff payne check for cracked or leaking fittings or pump housing gaskets that may be leaking. Isolate the fuel system to a fuel can to see if there are any improvements.
instructordave111 Ill check the outlet , check valve and brass fuel fitting, as thw inlet line is new, clear line with compression fitting. The inlet line is clear and bubble free at all times. I can see fuel, no bubbles into pump after days of sitting. The clear return line is the fuel bubble mix, but when i shut truck off, it all drains rapidly from last injector to fuel can on ground. If i hopd line down in a loop, ypu can see a bubble now and again coming out of return line. Thats what lead me to believe the pump is sucking air and draining prime.
Hi Dave, great video I have a compressor with a john deere 3 cyl and a stanadyne db2 pump. My problem is it will start and run on either, stop either and it quits. I have an electric pump going to the mechanical pump and have plenty of fuel to the injector pump.Checked all return lines and fuel runs freely back to tank. Opened side timing cover to check for sheared shaft and it is turning. Have power 12v to fuel shutoff and can hear it click when turning on switch. Undo injector lines at pump and turn over and no fuel whatsoever. Pump looks like new, even though I hear the fuel shut off click could it be stuck internally or something? Any Ideas? Really appreciate any help! Thanks, Tom
If the solenoid is working then it is entirely possible that there is something else stuck or seized inside the pump. You could take the top off and see if the linkage that operates the metering valve is free and the metering valve is also free to move. While the top is off, energize the solenoid to see if it is working.
No real trick other than be gentle with the gasket and do not let any dirt get into the pump housing. If it's the same as the one in the video, just remove the return fuel line, the wiring to the solenid and the 4 screws holding it down. If the pump was recently replaced, was the driveshaft installed with the timing marks on the end in the right place? The driveshaft can be installed 180 degrees out.
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What an excellent explanation. Thank you so much. I've been sitting here with a cup of coffee just scribbling notes and understanding everything. I love it when I find someone who clicks with how I learn. This video is very appreciated and I'll be referring classmates to this for help. Still good in 2020!
Thank you for the kind words Tanya. I am happy that this is still helping people understand how this pump works.
Thank you very much for posting this video. I've asked several repair shops how a pump works; even going as far as offering cash and none explained this as well as you just did. Thank you thank you thank you. I will be more confident on my next repair.
Mark Ervin Happy that you got some value from this video.
I will teach you! How much? ☺️
instructordave111 Thank you very much for the video. I recently tore down a DB, not DB2, which appears to be the same internally other than the distributor portion. I read the service manual's description of operation thoroughly, but your video made it all come together. I appreciate you taking the time to make this.
Brilliant video and explanation. Thanks for sharing. I'm trained on Bosch, Delphi and Denso, and these Stanadyne pumps have always been a bit of a mystery for me. This video helped me a lot. Cheers.
Happy that it still helps after all these years.
Very happy after watching this very clearly narrated video of the very pump that I have recently had trouble with. Now this is clear to me why we had a problem. Thanks so much for such an effort.
Marielle Salom I'm glad the video helped in some way. Thanks for the kind words.
Thankyou for a very informative video..i have learnt a lot and now understand why my pump isnt working..thanks again
I'm glad it helped.
I am glad I came across this video. I have a gm 350DX and the pump was a bit of a mystery.
Happy that it can still be of use to you.
Thank you very much. I have a hard time understanding this type of pump. And your video saves me. Thanks again. ❤️
Just got a 6.5 db2 pump, was wondering how it worked, theis video was amazing well done
Very helpful for my diesel fuels class. thank you
Happy that it is able to help. I made the video for my diesel class. I figured they could watch it after class when they might be wondering what it was that they weren't paying attention to all day!! LOL
It’s 2018 and I’m in my journeyman year of school, thanks for the great video.
MKB Rockets great that my old video still has some value.
Thanks for breaking that down for me. I believe you just solved my problem.
Wonderful breakdown of the Stanadyne system! I learned a ton watching this.
I entered diesels not long ago, after 20 total years as an auto mechanic, 15 of those 20 spent with motorcycles, and now 2 years into diesel, learning and experimenting as much as I can. Currently, servicing my '91 6.2 Detroit has been a wonderful experience in learning how the deeper mechanical parts of diesels work, as well as how to understand the complex systems in play when they are running correctly.
i own a 1986 international navistar in a f350, that was very interesting ,thank you
The cutaway of that pump is too cool.
You provided some excellent help with your demonstration of the processes involved. Thank you.
Thank you, happy to be of help .
It’s called the “DB-2” because D. B. Cooper invented it and it was his second design. Soon after, he successfully hijacked Flight 305 and parachuted from the Boeing 727 with $200,000. In 1971, $200,000 was a lot of money. He disappeared and, sadly, never realized the success of his now famous Injector Pump breakthrough.
Good to know, I was not aware of this i formation. Thanks for the contribution.
If anyone believes that one, I have some land in Florida that NEVER gets flooded, and I can get you a great price on the Brooklyn Bridge if you have cash.
@@dave7830 The Brooklyn Bridge shares is fake news. I know because I bought up the last of them several years ago.
This is just great. Thanks Dave
VERY well taught. Thank you Sir.
I can imagine that it took some time to machine all the injection pump parts to expose the many passageways.. Excellent work. I've always wondered how these little rotary monsters did their work, and now have a better understanding of what controls my old 6.2 GM Detroit. I have recently acquired a late 90s 6.5L Turbo Detroit, with the PCM controlled Stanadyne DS4 electronic injection pump. If there are videos of this nature describing their inner workings I'd greatly appreciate viewing them!
I don't know of any cutaway type videos of the DS4 pump, but the ecm would be controlling the metering, governor and timing of the pump rather than being mechanical components. The guy that did this video may be a resource for you. ruclips.net/video/qWAZhEM-CKg/видео.html Good Luck.
They were not Detroit diesels . It’s a common misconception
In the automotive world they are considered Detroits starting with the 5.7 series, no it is not technically correct but it is an accepted term, it separates the miserable GM designed engines from the Isuzu designed GM engines. @@johngnipper8768
Fantastic! Thanks.
Great video. I have a 1981 Oldsmobile 98 Diesel and it has an injection pump that looks just like the one in this video. More Injection pump videos please. Thanks
Great videos, using in alberta canada
I am happy that you are getting some use out of this old video. Good luck.
Thank you for the iñteresting information,and keep up the good work.
Thanks for very helpful video 👍🖐
Great Video, very informative.
Iv watched this like a dozen times super good video, thank you!!
Thanks Raymond, I hope it makes whatever fuel system work you are doing, easier to understand and diagnose.
I have a tractor that will start fine but idles high and I have no throttle response. Any ideas its a 4 banger with a cav pump
You may have an issue with the control on the metering valve or a governor linkage issue. the CAV pumps work a bit differently than the Roosa Master design in this video. I don't have a CAV video to reference on this.
A US military Mechanic school instructor recommended this video to me.
I hope that it was of some use to you. Glad that my old video is still working for people out there. Have a great day.
Wish you could have done this while pointing at every piece with your pencil. But it's still helpful. Thanks man 😁
Sorry Debbie, I did the best I could.
Great video you should watch if you are tearing apart a stanadyne pump.
you greatness is impossible to understate. I would like more information on the shut off solenoid and the different parts needed to move to turn the metering valve and the injection pump to ON.
Thank you Yubal,
The shutoff solenoid forces the metering valve to the NO fuel position when there is no electrical power applied to it. Once the ignition is turned on the solenoid is energized to create an electromagnet, which pulls in the stop lever and allows the metering valve to go to full fuel. The spring forces the linkages and levers inside to move the valve to full fuel. Once the engine is started the flyweights counteract the spring and cause the metering valve to adjust the fuel quantity to match the speed and load desired by the operator.
This old video may also help ruclips.net/video/DCPWHv2jJZE/видео.html
It's a valuable video for me thank you
Would a sticking delivery valve cause a white smoke condition across the RPM Range?
Sorry Armand, I apologize for not seeing this. Yes a delivery valve that is sticking open or has debris on the seat would allow drops of fuel to enter the cylinder via the injector tip. It is there to provide a quick BOI and EOI and maintain a head pressure in the line, without it there would be some unatomized fuel drops getting by. Sorry once again for missing this question.
So good explanation Sir. Please explain to us the VE type if can
Excelente explicacion. Muchas gracias, profesor.
Thank you, I am happy that this old video is still helping people understand how it works.
Thank you so much for this video! Your detailed explanation especially the part about the return being blocked lead me to disconnect the return to tank and connecting a catch container, this got the truck running again! I would have never imagined a blocked return could stop the engine from running otherwise. Now to find why the return is restricted and correct that issue. I’m thinking an issue with the tank selector valve since the truck has dual fuel tanks.
I am happy that this helped you out. If the fuel can't get out the plunger pressures equalize on each end and will no longer be able to pump fuel. Check for a kinked return line. I learned that from working on a truck for a guy who had stepped on his while washing his windshield. Good Luck.
@@instructordave111 Working on 7.3 IDI I just replaced all of the caps and return lines on the engine so it’s something from the engine towards the tank out of all the videos that I watched trying to learn as much as possible yours is the only one that mentioned a blocked or clogged return line The only video that mentioned anything close to the subject was only the possibility of the check ball on top of the pump being stuck thanks again for the information and knowledge
This video is awesome. I'm curious to know who develop the cutout of the pump. They great job!
If you read all the comments below you will see one by Ernie Johnson of Johnson cutaways. He is the one who made these sorts of excellent training tools.
What a great video
Thank you for this video
Thanks Instructor Dave.
This is an awesome video. I never knew how an injector pump worked.
Happy that I could help.
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
With our description I suggest that you open the inspection window to see if the internal rotor is turning when cranking the engine. If not you may have a broken pump drive shaft.
How high is the preassure going to the engine?
That will depend on the speed the engine is turning. The injection pressure can be as low as 2000 psi at idle or slow speed and up to 25,000 psi at maximum engine speed.
Ok thanks great video
Very good for me thank you.
thanks for the upload
With the three injector lines undone at the IP should fuel squirt out, even if it is out of time. Also pulled the top off, shutoff moves back and forth like it should, put it back together. Now not getting fuel in the bowl, plenty of fuel flow to the IP pump.
Hi Tom, if there is fuel in the pump, the internal transfer pump is working properly and the metering valve is not in the fuel shut off position it should deliver fuel from the high pressure ports. Possibly the transfer pump is not working or the differential pressure valve is stuck in the open position. the electric lift pump is only there to deliver fuel to the internal transfer pump, which is there to deliver fuel at varying transfer pressures to the high pressure side of the pump. If this pump had any water in it and sat for a period of time some of the internal components may be frozen in place. It is actually not a complicated system, but many things have to work together at the same time to make the pump do what it was designed to do. .From your description it seems like the system from the tank to the inlet is working so whatever is the issue is in the pump
Keep at it and let me know what you find.
Is there a way to use fuel under pressure or air pressure to un-stick stuck plungers?
Thanks
Due to the design of the pump, I would not use air to try to free them up as there may be water or dirt in the air you are using. You may be able to pressurize the fuel pressure test port but you would have to be careful to not over do it and damage some of the internal components. You should be able to apply the same pressure as the pump would see at high rpm. You would need to check your specs for your pump to determine that. Due to the very minimal tolerances inside the pump I would not hold out much hope for this to work. Good luck !
@@instructordave111 Thanks Dave! But........what port is the Fuel Pressure Test port??
Sorry I missed this question. The pressure test port is the black hex head plug near the top right side of the pump body in the beginning of the video. Hopefully you found the answer .
If I had been more patient and watched the entire video, I would have had my question answered! Whenever I have a pump rebuilt and they replaced the delivery valve, is the new valve lapped or mated in some other fashion to the seat in the rotor shaft?
A new delivery valve would be a whole new assembly that is inserted into the rotor. The old one is removed and the new one is installed in it's place.
The dv is softer metal than the bore. So it wears but the bore does not. The dv maintains psi in the injection line, approx 500 psi less than injection psi. It helps the engine run smoother. Without it. The injection line to the injector would drop to no psi after each cycle, requiring more fuel to replenish the psi, and would cause a delay. All modern injection pumps utilize them.
Hello. great video. do you have some video or información for an stanadyne de diésel pum?
Stanadyne is Roosa master. Same pumps.
Thank you, very informative!
this video helps. thank you
What a fantastic video. Thank you.
Happy to be of assistance.
Great video!!
Very informative.
Great Video!! Thanks for the explanations you gave, but I do have a question. Can you use this pump without a sending/lifting pump? What are the consequences? Thank you!
Rodrigo Bulman, you may be able to run it that way if the fuel tank is above the pump so it gets some head pressure. Generally there needs to be 3 to 5 psi and enough fule flow for the pump to work properly. Low power and hard start would be the first consequences that you notice.
What the author says is correct, but it was common on older tractors with similar pumps to gravity feed them.
That is a very good tutorial. I have a question that has bugged me for along time, if the metering valve controls how much fuel is sent to the plungers and we know the plungers only move apart in relation to the amount of fuel delivered through the metering valve then how in the world does turning the screw that controls maximum plunger travel affect the fuel delivery?
Is it because there are times when the plunger travel limits the amount of fuel the metering valve delivers, if so that would only be in a max fuel state yes?
Yes you are correct the only time the metering valve is not the limiting factor is at maximum fuelling stage. The fuel, in that stage, between the plungers push them up against the spring ends. Adjusting the screw inwards increases max fuel delivery by compressing the spring and moving the spring ends out. the opposite occurs if the screw is turned the opposite way, which allows the spring ends to move in towards the plungers.
Thank you so much for your help and I wish if there is more videos about diesel pump thank you thank you thank you is there is any video for the burkins 3 cylinder
I do not have any other pump videos other than the port and Helix explanation. Thank you for using the distributor pump video to learn how they work.
Curious as to what kind of pressure is in the dome where the fuel shutoff solenoid is?
leverguy 3030 usually between 2 to 5 psi depending on how good your return fitting regulator spring is.
thanks a bunch!
Also, on a db2 is the FSS the primary shut down for the engine?..... as opposed to the ds4 that also has fuel metering solenoid.
Yes the solenoid is generally the primary shutdown.
The specs. Say 8 to 12 psi.
If its a Cup seal, can i repair that myself? its coming from either the bottom or where it bolts. NOT the fuel lines side.
Hi Rick,
There is a "weep hole"in the area between the two Fuel cup seals that is there to let you know the seals are failing.
Do not JB weld over this hole or you will end up with the fuel getting into the oil pan and that will cause a bunch more engine issues.
The cup seals can be changed by you if you are a little bit mechanically inclined.
Set the engine at #1 cylinder on compression using the Cummins pin , make a mark from the pump housing to the front cover, remove the fuel lines from the pump, remove the pump from the engine ( you may need a puller to loosen the gear from the tapered shaft. Don't lose the key into the engine when you do that part. Remove the pump drive shaft and change the cup seals. Some manufacturers sell a seal installer tool when you get the new seals. When you reinstall the pump driveshaft, make sure the seals don't flip back using the tool and absolutely be sure the driveshaft timing marks are lined up inside the pump. When everything is apart, be sure that the engine or the pump do not move or resetting the timing could be an issue.
Good Luck with your project.
Wow. Great video Dave. Would this be a Standadyne or Roosamaster DB2 style pump?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :)
Thanks Joe, it is a Roosamaster DB2 made by Stanadyne.
instructordave111 if I remember correctly Roosamaster was bought by Standyne
Thanks
Good video! thanks for making it! Could you go more in depth into how those rollers and plungers work?
+themadmailler The plungers are forced outwards by the incoming "metered" amount of fuel and then as the rotor turns the rollers contact the internal cam lobes and force the plungers back inwards towards each other. As the fuel is pushed from the area between the plungers the distribution port comes into alignment with the rotor and the fuel, under pressure, is delivered to the injector. I hope that is what you are looking for.
Thank you!
For anyone.....rebuilt DB in 64 jd3020. No fuel coming out ports. How smooth them plungers have to move back and forth? And would you say that they are spred out most the time so the cam hits them and drive that pressure?
Kenneth, the plungers must be absolutely free to move in and out. And because of the speed of the pump, they are always out unless the cam ring lobes are forcing them inward. As soon as they have rotated past the lobe,transfer pump psi pushes them outward to be charged for the next injection.
Injected quantity is based on both the metering valve position (charge pressure, same as transfer pressure at wide open throttle) AND the charge duration which decreases with increased RPM. This is offset with the increased transfer pressure with RPM.
Lower case pressure increases fueling as well as slightly advances timing since transfer pressure pushes the servo piston, rotating the cam ring. On the opposite side of this piston is case pressure.
Could you increase the diameter of the plungers and increase fueling for more boost like a bosch m style pump?
You could adjust the plunger spring to allow for slightly more fuel or put in the pumping assembly from a higher horsepower pump as it will deliver more fuel. The easiest way is to just install the higher horsepower pump and injectors. These are not as easy to hot rod as the inline pumps are.
Thanks alot
the direction of rotation can be confusing.the arrow on the transfer pump seems to be backwords
Hi Fergie,
The pump would be built to coincide with the engine rotation. This pump is a demonstration piece and my explanation mY take some artistic license to explain the operation of the pumps components. Be sure that any fuel pump work is based on proper knowledge of the engine you are working in.
If you have a fuel pump that fuel is getting into the pump through the inlet line but fuel is not exiting through the ports that go to the injectors, what could be the issue? Fuel is flowing in to the pump and then out through the return line.
+Randall P
You may have a high pressure pump shaft that is broken, you may have an inlet valve that is not working, you may have an electric solenoid that is missing a wire or a ground or a fuse that won't allow the pump to go from shut off to run position. I will need more information to be more accurate in my diagnosis of your issue.
Sounds like quite a lot off possible things. Well the fuel stop or shutoff solenoid does work. Removed the pump and the gear that connects to the shaft is good. Before I got it, the owners put water in the tank. So drained that and the fuel water separator twice. Then put new fuel in. That's about all I can add. And thank your taking the time to reply
+Randall P There are many things that can cause your issue. I am wondering if the water that was in the tank got into the pump and the opposed plungers are rusted in place. The only thing that forces them apart is the transfer pressure fuel. If they are rusted in place they can not develop the pressure to force fuel into the injectors. Sounds like you may have a very contaminated fuel pump if water has been in there for any length of time. Please let me know what you find. Still I am just pointing out things that could cause the issue you have described.
awesome explaination man. a bit more light would make it perfect
Thanks for the message. I am now retired so that video is as good as I can ever make it be. Good luck with whatever you are working on.
That was awesome! I have been trying to figure out why my pump is not distributing fuel and now I think it's because the rotor isn't moving. Any idea what would cause that?
Possibly a broken drive shaft, but that is generally due to a siezed pump. You can take the timing/inspection window off of the side to see if the pump is turning when the engine cranks. keep us posted on what you find.
neat video. is their a place where i can TEST the transfer pump pressure ? i have a Stanadyne DB4 pump on my john deere tractor, if the tractor sits for a couple days it chuggs black / white smoke when it starts until i rev up the engine, then it runs great all day, and re-starts just fine, untill it sits a few days, then rough idle again. i think i have a problem with the internal transfer pump? maybe the transfer pump veins are sticking in, and not pushing out to grab fuel to pump??
Thank you. Sounds like you may have a bit of a drainback or leakdown issue. In the first few seconds of the video you can see the black hex bolt just to the right and up from the timing window. You should be able to measure transfer pressure there. Make sure the lift pump is doing its job before condemning the fuel pump transfer pump.
@@instructordave111 i see, i will double check the lift pump supply / drain back before checking the transfer pump pressure. thanks again!
I always try to eliminate the simple stuff first. It may be a bigger issue, but make sure of the easier stuff first.
have case 580e backhoe the engine will start and run only if i actuate the hydraulics, load on engine makes it run? i need to fix this, trying to understand, worse than mg or vw lol
I don't think it has anything to do with the fuel pump. Sounds like you may have a hydraulic relief valve or unloader valve issue. Possibly the hydraulic pressure prevents the engine from turning the pump unless you manually give the oil a place to go. Good luck.
Hi, We had to replace the O ring on the throttle control as it was leaking fuel, put it back in but will not start... any advice?
stop solenoid wire got pulled, linkage no longer connected, when you opened it up?? Pretty wide open as to the cause of the issue. Go back through the steps of your repair.
Hi my name is Matthew Lazarin. Your video has taught me alot.
But I'm still having a lack of knowledge on how or what would cause a runaway on the 6.2 diesel gmc.
I believe I was the that caused it to do so but not to sure EXACTLY HOW IT WOULD DO SO.
I recently was out at the dunes doing some off Roading. I stoped on a hill going downwards. 1 min passes and the engine shuts off.
Do I decided to push the truck to a level ground so see if the pick up pump was able to suck fuel up. Still nothing. No start.
Then I opened the pressure dome and decided to move the linkage inside thinking that maybe something got bound up inside.
Do I closed is all up I cranked it over and the engine decided to RUNAWAY from me past governor limits. I was able to shut it off about 30 40 seconds later.
So when I was able to bring it home after being towed I decided to try it again and crank it over once I crank it over I decided to run away again for me but I was able to shut it off again by choking out the air flow to the engine.
So now I've just left it all alone and I've been trying to do a lot of research on how or what would have caused this run away how can I fix it hopefully you can reply back to this or email me or maybe even call me
MatthewLazarin@yahoo.com
Matthew Laced Hi Matthew, I am guessing that first the engine may have died due to the pick up tube getting some air ( fuel level very low or a cracked tube possibly from the off roading fuel slosh action ?) Second when the linkage was moved around in the housing did a lever become disconnected inside? the governor is not controlling the fuelling to pull back on the fuel when the engine overspeeds. Maybe the metering valve became disconnected and is now letting wide open fuel enter the pumping chamber. That is why the electric or manual shutoff lever isn't doing it's job because it can't rotate the metering valve back to closed. You will have to carefully inspect the linkage again. Try reading this article. Good Luck @0809
instructordave111 looks like the link didn't work. Google search "Stanadyne DB2 Injection Pump" there is a good article in Dieselpower magazine about it.
yeah that's what I was thinking that the fuel wasn't getting through the tube shut the truck off.
From what I've seen nothing has been disconnected, but I will go outside and check to see if anything is disconnected, I'm also kind of curious on how exactly you put the pressure dome back on correctly. I will write back when I'm finished looking at the linkage .
This is such an awesome video, thank you for sharing. I currently have an engine I swapped in and am trying to get going. I have my IP off my old engine on there and I wasn't able to get it going. I put an electric pump on the frame rail in place of the mechanical pump, it used to fill the return line as soon as the key was on, but now it barely makes it out of the pump. I'm thinking the pump is plugged. What are your thoughts?
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I will need a bit more info as you don't mention if the engine tries to fire up and wont keep running, are you getting any smoke from the exhaust, what is the engine that you swapped the injection pump off of and on to?? There could be many things that prevent the engine from starting, is it timed correctly, is the return check ball plugged, does fuel flow when you remove the fitting on the top of the pump? Check a few more things and maybe we can get it sorted out.
Dave
+instructordave111
Thanks for the reply dave...my new compression tester came in last night...and told me that the engine is coming out...first cylinder was 5psi, second was 200...I didn't bother checking the rest after that. Just two bellhousing bolts holding it in at this point, I'm pulling it out the rest of the way after work. I'm kind of glad, because I'm pretty damn good with these engines and I was just so stumped as to what was going on and why I couldn't get it running. It's getting a 120k mile running 7.3 now. Thanks again for the reply.
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I'm glad you found the issue. Low compression is really bad for starting a diesel.Good Luck with the next engine. 7.3's were a great engine, just loud when cold.
Excellent education
ds4 injection pumps look like an octopus
But how does the fuel get from the top part to the advanced piston?
There is a drilled passage that allows transfer pressure fuel to act upon the advance piston. As the speed increases the transfer pressure also increases and the advance piston is moved against the spring even further to advance the BOI.
Could you make a video on how to replace the cup seals?
Or just tell me in reply to my comment.
I am not able to remove the distributor.
What is the easiest way to replace the seals?
Thanks
EvenStar LoveAnanda Unless you have a gear drive that can be removed from the front of the engine, you will not be able to change the cup seals without removing the pump drive shaft. The pump drive shaft needs to slide out from the front of the Stanadyne DB2 pump and there is a special tool that you can probably borrow to install the shaft with the new cup seals. It is designed to keep the seals from flipping over on installation. Also make sure you have the pump shaft timing marks in the correct position or you will be out by 180 degrees of pump rotation. check this bulletin from Stanadyne @559
That was a great lesson. My old F250 will all of a sudden run weak like a gas engine that is low in ignition timing. I can feel it all of a sudden loose a bunch of power. It usually starts the day running good and at some point will loose power but still drive out. From what I understood here is it the return line stopping up ? Or is there other culprits besides the return system? Thanks.
Phil Lowman it could be a return line issue if there is a kink in the pipe or a damaged hose somewhere. It could something as simple as a tank or fuel cap vent that is not working properly. Does it white smoke when it goes to low power? You may have an area in the suction line that is sucking air.
Check the simple stuff first
I have a 70's 644-aa loader that has this pump. Freshly rebuilt 407 jd engine and i have the problem of the pump overfueling causing hard starting, hot or cold and alot of smoke. Can this pump be turned down or up or does pump wear cause the overfueling?
I am assuming that the engine was rebuilt, but the pump was not? What makes you believe it is over fuelling?
A worn pump should actually inject less fuel than too much due to extra internal leakage.
Was the pump timed to the engine properly when the engine was rebuilt? What color smoke do you have, white or black ?
Set engine to TDC on No 1 cylinder and then open inspection window to see if the timing marks on the pump line up. If the pump is off by 1 degree at the pump it is 2 degrees off in the cylinder timing.
Thanks for commenting back. Yes your correct. the motor is fresh from the crank up but the pump is not. I had a local j.d mechanic time the pump and engine but you never know. The smoke is black and thick. As soon as you hit the starter button, here comes the smoke rings. I have to either it every time we start it. It runs great once started, good power no oil loss, but rolls coal all the time as they say, but if it sits for 5 min, back to the juice we go. Im a gas mechanic so diesel engines are kind of left field for me. I will check the pump timing through that window and see what i get. Anymore input you might have on this is highly appreciated and thank you for taking the time to info me.
leanne brown No problem, since it is a 70's vintage engine, there would be no emissions equipment on it, is it turbocharged?
Did you have the injectors tested. Black smoke is either too much fuel or not enough air. Too much fuel can be due to the pump being adjusted for more fuel than the engine can use or the injectors allowing more fuel to flow into the cylinder than normal. How was it running before the rebuild? Hard starting could be from incorrect pump timing, unatomized fuel from worn injectors or worn cylinders not developing pressure to fire the injectors. I know you said you had good power, but if it's black smoking you had better keep an eye on overheating the engine and this could also wash down the cylinders and ruin the rings, pistons and cylinder walls ( Sort of like having pre-ignition in a gas engine). Verify that the air intake system is completely clear and the filter is clean and then you may need to have the injectors and the pump tested. Good Luck and let me know what you find out.
The injectors are all rebuilt. She is turbocharged. I believe someone turned the fuel up back in the day cause it was wore slick out when we bought it and rebuilt it. Extreme blow-by, but it starts and black smokes like it did before the rebuild. john deere said you couldn't turn up delivery on these pumps that you could only adjust rpm so that confused me. Intake,filters and all are great. Everything gone through except the pump. Can these stanadyne pumps be turned up and down?
leanne brown You are more than likely correct about the pump being adjusted for more fuel or a pump from a more powerful engine was installed on the loader. There is a leaf spring inside the pump that can be adjusted to change the maximum amount of fuel the pump can deliver, but it requires disassembly of the pump to do it. Nothing external that would make it easy to do.
Here is a very good article about how this pump is constructed and how it works. www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0809dp_stanadyne_db2_injection_pump
Check to be sure the pump is the one for that particular engine if not then it may be best to exchange the pump for the one that is supposed to be on that engine. Running the engine in an over fuelling condition is going to take the engine out again.
Thanks for the video 150
Anyone know how to rebuild a pump lime this my pump on my 7.3 idi went out and a rebuilt one is about 500 bucks which I can't afford
YEE-BOE People have done home rebuilds , but these pumps require some very precise timing and internal clearances that most home DIYers don't have access too. Good Luck
how can i change or adjust the injection quantity?
Adjust the leaf spring bolt, in to increase delivery, out to reduce delivery.
The leaf spring bolt being the part that the govener moves in the casing? I have a perkins 6.354 and can't find any information on the pump
Roosa master 5/32 hex driver. You must remove the governor spring assy. Then manual rotate engine until screw head is visible inside the top hole of the cam ring. One flat of the hex driver is all you want to turn the screw. It’s that sensitive! Approx. 10% more fuel. Perkins usually used a cav, Lucas rotary pump. Fuel adjustment is: remove side timing cover. Rotate pump to expose one of two hold down screws. Loose it just a little. Rotate until other screwhead is exposed, loosen it. Now you can carefully rotate plate a tiny bit to allow shoe to travel out further. Tighten screw, rotate again and tighten first screw. It’s worth mentioning that neither of these is recommended for those not familiar with these pumps. To many things can get screwed up. Also, these pumps are always calibrated, cranking them up, leads to excessive smoke, poor fuel mileage, sometimes messing up other settings, such as timing, high and low idle, even transfer pump psi. Which could destroy the pump. Bring it to a pump shop!
Thanks for the video. I have a question if I could , I just reassembled A DB 2 pump on a 6.2 diesel out of a 1982 Chevrolet pick up and it has a surge and low power I was wondering if I would have assembled that pump a 180ﾟ out of time would it have even run . The truck will run and drive just low power and annoying idle . Thank you .
Could be a few things, governor linkages could be misaligned or binding, pump out by 180 would surprise me if it ran at all, check that the return line is clear and the check ball is in the return line fitting. Lift pump getting enough fuel to the transfer pump.
@@instructordave111 Thank you
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks you
Hi! It's an interesting video and very practical. I have a problem with a gen set when I start the engine, it start out of frequency range and decrease slowly the rpm until reach the nominal frecuency. This occurs in about 1:30 minutes. Why could happen that? Thanks!
Based on limited information and assuming the genset is equipped with this type of fuel pump. I would guess that there may be something that is keeping the fly weights from bringing the rpms down to the speed setting for you generator. Spring settings may have been adjusted to a higher speed than is required. Hard to give a definitive answer from a distance.
I'm curious. If the drive slot is 180deg out, will it still create an out of time pump pulse? Or will nothing happen?
Yes if the pump is 180 deg out it will be injecting on the opposite cylinder of the one that is on the power stroke. No run situation.
@@instructordave111 OK. Since this is a 6 cyl, even if it's 180deg out it should still have pulse, just out of time. We don't even have that. Thanks.
@@AmalgmousProxy injection pressure makes the pump very hard to turn. If the keyway is missing the shaft may just be rotating inside the pump or the gear is rotating on the shaft depending on what type of setup you have.
@@instructordave111 DB4. John Deere engine. It got bad fuel in it and lost pulses, sat for 2 years. Disassembled looking for damage and only found gunked front filter. Still no pluses. Beginning to suspect the wire bleeder is plugged and holding air inside after looking at the video.
@@AmalgmousProxy Good call, also it could be the outlet check ball stuck and not allowing return fuel to flow. That would equalize pressure on the plungers and stop them from pumping fuel. Does the fuel flow when ou remove the pressure check plug on the side of the pump? (The black plug on the upper right side of the housing in the first frame of the video)
Instructor Dave, how could I reach you. I'm having a problem with a stanadyne db2 "running away" at a certain rpm almost as if the governor isn't responding quick enough to the fuelling. (Steady throttle equals slight run away with 1/4 throttle being wide open response from pump)
Is this happening under engine load or just by revving the engine?
A diesel engine with no load will rev to the governor with very little throttle input.
If it is happening under load then there is more than likely a mechanical problem in the pump with one of the components that connect the flyweights to the inlet metering valve system.
Are both cup seals on the drive shaft supposed to face the same direction?
Both Cup seals visible in the video face towards the interior of the pump and 1 other that is not visible in the video, faces the other direction to prevent oil from entering the pump housing.
What would cause the throttle to start sticking out of the blue it's been rebuilt
Could be many things. start with the easy stuff, misaligned cables or linkage, kinked return lines etc. Internally it could be dirty fuel, flyweight not reacting or stuck, inlet valve issues, regulating valve issues, sticking check ball. Rebuilt doesn't mean operating correctly. My apologies to your rebuilder, we all miss things once in a while
Is this a Stanadyne DB2 pump?
Yes it is the DB2 pump from Stanadyne.
I have one question tho... If transfer quantity determines how far apart the plungers move than isnt the timimg affected by the fuel quantity. As in the regular plunger pump the plunger starts building pressure at the beginning of the stroke and quantity is regulated with a bleed port. But in this configuration in low fuel quantities wont the plunger start building pressure later thus affecting the timing? I am sure i am missing something here i have come across this type of pump a few times and it causes sleepless nights not understanding how it works, hope you can answer me or link me tawards something that can. Thank you in advance!
The lower helix plunger is the one you are referencing as a comparison to this pump. There is also an upper helix plunger that works similar to how the timing is affected by the plungers and fuel quantity in this distributor pump. I also have a video explaining the function of both of those.
You are correct in that the quantity of fuel affects the BOI (beginning of Injection) timing in the distributor pump. The EOI (End of Injection) is fixed as far as the rollers and plungers reaching the top of the internal cam lobe. The effect of this is when the engine is at low fuel requirements and low speed, the later BOI allows the cylinder to build a little more heat to allow for better ignition of the fuel. At higher speeds and fuel requirements the piston speed increases the temperature quicker and the resulting advancement of the BOI allows the combustion event to start sooner so it can be completed at the proper point in the pistons travel.
I hope that helps and lets you sleep better.
Here is a link to the upper and lower helix plungers ruclips.net/video/msh0UODEvig/видео.html
@@instructordave111 thank you so much for putting my mind at ease 😃
Very helpful. So if I want to increase the overall amount of fuel that's available do I increase the size of the plungers and the metering valve or will increasing the size of the plungers do the trick? Thanks to anyone who can answer this question.
To increase fuel delivery on this pump, you can adjust the roller spring to allow the plungers to deliver the max fuel that they are designed for, but you can not change to bigger plungers etc. These pumps are only good for up to approximately 250 hp and then you are better off to go to an inline style pump for more fuel delivery capabilities.
I'm sure there are instances where someone has a pump like this at more than 250 hp but those would be limited instances.
IMHO
Thanks for the info. About 250 HP is about what I'm looking for out of this particular build. I know there are a couple of companies out there that are getting close to 200cc out of the pumps that are available for the 7.3 IDI. I'm not looking to get more than maybe 110cc out of a pump and since I have a couple that are currently not working I thought I would try to do it myself rather than pay several hundred to someone else. Worse case scenario it doesn't work and I have to order a pump but I learn something about these pumps in the process.
Parent of Twins if you are willing to experiment and learn something that is great. Just make sure you are working in as clean a place as possible. These wont tolerate any dirt getting into them. Measure the spring height and then tighten the screw to allow the rollers to deliver more fuel. Good luck.
Thanks for the info, advice, and video.
Altering the profile of the metering valve can alter the torque curve. As for increasing flow or volume, you can have the plungers ground shorter and a custom cam ring with a faster rise and longer stroke to match the shorter plungers.
There are many machine shops out there who could make the cam and regrind your plungers for a reasonable price.
Another option is to just recut the profile of the cam without altering the plunger. A larger base circle would increase stroke length of the plungers .
These are nice purpose built pumps with room for some fun.
If someone was ambitious enough, a split shot cam profile could be produced.
Wow. I finally get how the plungers work! I have an old 6.2 in a suburban that I let sit for a couple years, and now my plungers are stuck. No output. Tried soaking the pump in 180 degree canola oil, but still no output spinning by hand with an electric fuel pump inputing diesel. Removed the metering valve while soaking. Any quick advice for freeing up the plungers before I give up and get a rebuild? Can't afford $700! Thanks for your work. Really helping me get how it works.
+Washington D. Sastor Once the plungers are seized, there is not much that can be done other than a tearing the pump down and if there was any water sitting in there they may be rusted in place. Are you sure it's the plungers that are not working?
I have a old IH td6 dozer with a stuck plunger, will the whole pump need to be removed to repair?
I'm afraid your pump will need to be removed and rebuilt if the plungers are stuck. You may try filling the pump with fuel conditioner, but I doubt that you will have any success just trying that. If they got some water in them they will likely be rusted in place.
thanks, ill give that a try.
what is name of the pump "full name" thank you
it is a Stanadyne DB2 high pressure fuel pump.
thank you very much
If i have solid fuel coming into pump, and 50/50 mix of fuel and bubbles from return outlet, its pump seals?
jeff payne how does it run? Do a spill back test into a large bucket to see if you are getting enough return fuel. These pumps naturally aerate the return fuel to a certain extent. Maybe internal transfer pump issue, loose or pressure regulating valve not set correctly. Seals would leak from weep hole or dilute the engine oil. Keep me posted on what you find.
instructordave111
instructordave111
She runs like a top when i get her primed. New injectors, pump is about a year or so old. Very few miles since install at a reputable shop. Started and drove fine for about 6 weeks after injectors installed. Then one morning, no start. Fuel from return line had bled back to tank. Isolated the air intrusion with clear lines and can watch fuel bubbles leave pump. If i turn truck off, and immediagly restart, no problem. If she sits more then 10 seconds she loses prime and must be reblead. After hours of research ,i am believing the seals in pump are shot, thus creating an internal vacuum when shut off and filling return with air.
Thank you for your time both in posting a very informative video, and responding so promptly.
jeff payne check for cracked or leaking fittings or pump housing gaskets that may be leaking. Isolate the fuel system to a fuel can to see if there are any improvements.
instructordave111
Ill check the outlet , check valve and brass fuel fitting, as thw inlet line is new, clear line with compression fitting. The inlet line is clear and bubble free at all times. I can see fuel, no bubbles into pump after days of sitting. The clear return line is the fuel bubble mix, but when i shut truck off, it all drains rapidly from last injector to fuel can on ground. If i hopd line down in a loop, ypu can see a bubble now and again coming out of return line. Thats what lead me to believe the pump is sucking air and draining prime.
Hi Dave, great video I have a compressor with a john deere 3 cyl and a stanadyne db2 pump. My problem is it will start and run on either, stop either and it quits. I have an electric pump going to the mechanical pump and have plenty of fuel to the injector pump.Checked all return lines and fuel runs freely back to tank. Opened side timing cover to check for sheared shaft and it is turning. Have power 12v to fuel shutoff and can hear it click when turning on switch. Undo injector lines at pump and turn over and no fuel whatsoever. Pump looks like new, even though I hear the fuel shut off click could it be stuck internally or something? Any Ideas? Really appreciate any help!
Thanks, Tom
If the solenoid is working then it is entirely possible that there is something else stuck or seized inside the pump. You could take the top off and see if the linkage that operates the metering valve is free and the metering valve is also free to move. While the top is off, energize the solenoid to see if it is working.
Thanks, Dave Is there a special way or any tricks taking it off or putting the top back on?
Thanks, Tom
No real trick other than be gentle with the gasket and do not let any dirt get into the pump housing. If it's the same as the one in the video, just remove the return fuel line, the wiring to the solenid and the 4 screws holding it down. If the pump was recently replaced, was the driveshaft installed with the timing marks on the end in the right place? The driveshaft can be installed 180 degrees out.