I think this guy needs to sit in on his own classes and see how creative he becomes!...I believe the more knowledge you have the more you can "enhance" creativity but schools are the best at killing the excitement of learning..I learned more in a year of reading books from doctors ,ceo's and scientist than I did in the entirety of my school life. As soon as I step in a school I start to get bored. When im discovering knowledge for myself im obsessed with learning.
Well said Tim - at SJWMS, in your day, we tried to encourage creativity and knowledge. I taught Philosophy to encourage teenagers to think for themselves...but then came the "one size fits all" National Curriculum. It even reached A level Philosophy. Early one morning I was marking a sheaf of scripts for a well-known Exam Board...and realised I was marking the same model essay which every candidate had memorised - some better than others. Pressures on teachers like me had led to this kind of "knowledge" being taught. That day I decided - no more secondary, no more examining...and went into free-lance lecturing.
I'm going to use a mathematical analogy because it both demonstrates the flaw with the criticism advanced in this talk, and because, in the context of RUclips comment sections such an analogy is, well, creative. Creativity equals knowledge times flexibility of mind, where each variable lies between 0 (none) and 1 (full). That is C=kf Tim Leunig argues that we need to focus on knowledge to achieve creativity, and that Keith Robinson's approach will detract from the development of knowledge. But what Keith Robinson really argued is that flexibility of mind has a negative relationship with knowledge due to the way it is taught, that is f=1-k Elements like an emphasis on single standard answers to questions, and a focus on assessment and conformity in practice works against the development of flexibility of mind, and therefore creativity. In this case, the increase in knowledge works against creativity, irrespective of the necessity of knowledge for creativity. Mathematically, C = k - k^2 But this doesn't have to be. Education shouldn't cause this negative relationship if it also focuses on training the flexibility of mind. In that case, flexibility of mind could be independent of knowledge, or even better, enhanced by knowledge. That is f=f0 + nk, where n is a training factor associated to knowledge of mind flexibility techniques (that tails off when f tends to 1, for mathematical consistency). Thus creativity could be C=kf0 + nk^2 if education is appropriately developed. So, in summary, Tim Leunig argues not just that knowledge is essential for creativity (it is) but also, by his criticism of Keith Robinson, that flexibility of mind is irrelevant. On this, Keith Robinson is correct, education systems do seem to reduce the flexibility of mind on average, by focusing the students into inflexible thinking habits, thus reducing creativity. But these systems don't have to.
Great talk! Challenging this belief that creativity is somehow independent from knowledge is so important, especially if we are to have the kind of world-changing creativity Tim speaks about here.
This is an interesting idea. Creativity and knowledge can and should work together, but I have seen times that education has stifled creativity. True learning and good teaching do add to a person's tool box of talents and knowledge to create, but what we learn isn't always what our teachers are trying to teach us. Traditional forms of learning and education are not the answer to increasing creativity. Freedom is the key to creativity. The structure in schools can severely limit creativity, because of conformity, competition, and standardization. Students aren't free to learn what they want, they have to jump through hoops and please professors for a grade. They are not free to explore their majors of choice, they can only choose between a predetermined list of classes.Scarcity of knowledge is a problem, and I agree with that. Too many people don't know history, so it is repeating it's self over and over. People don't know themselves and they don't have the tools to thrive in life. Common sense isn't so common anymore. I'm just not convinced public education is the answer for these problems, or that it will magically add more creativity into the world as more people get degrees. Colleges and public schools don't have a monopoly on truths, education, and teaching. Colleges and public schools are just the ones who have controlled the information in our recent past. Religions used to have power to educate and sway public opinion, but now a days they don't have as much sway as public education institutions today.Just like self published authors are changing the need to join a book publisher to share their art. Just like independent musicians no longer need to sell their rights to publishers to share their music. Self educated people will not be stopped from learning and teaching others just because Colleges and Schools want to hold on to that power. Knowledge comes from just living life. Learning and knowledge should be free. I have learned more from my free education than I have ever learned sitting in a classroom.Over all I liked his ideas, they were interesting. I think the biggest problem I have with this video is with the word "real" creativity. Like there is a fake creativity. Like if you have a degree or the right education, it somehow makes creativity more real than someone without the right credentials. Creativity isn't something that can be taught. It is an inherent part of being human. If schools understood their role in educating students as unique independent creative beings; that the education received in schools should facilitate that learner's creativity and life aspirations; that the student isn't in school to conform to the school, to social norms, to the other students, or to some national standard; that a student shouldn't be judged based on their interests, rate of learning, their ability to sit still and be quiet, or for the way they express themselves; Ken Robinson message might not appeal so universally. I wish public schools had the power to do all these things individually for the students, but it is not designed for the individual. Ken Robinson inspires, this man has interesting ideas, but I didn't feel inspired.
Thank you! As a "creative" myself*, educated primarily in "alternative schools" and learning on my own, I resonate with your response. Thank you! I feel validated! *I design and build custom stained glass windows; also have worked in graphic design and offset printing, and editing/proofreading, as well as teaching English in highschool. I also read widely, and write. The broad scope of my experience and study has made me who I am today.
I think you're proving Sir Ken Robinson's point here. His point is that students have differing strengths and learn in different ways. Some students need the arts to be able to gain knowledge. Using art or a kinesthetic modality to help students learn science is more along the lines of his point. But because you have decided that art or dance is being compared to science, it undermines the population of students who learn best through movement. Whether they plan to be dancers or not, movement helps them learn best. Same with the connection between music and math. (see Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences for reference).
We don't actually ''learn'' when the only important things are grades and exams to finish the school and have a job, and we don't actually ''learn'' when teachers just covering the lectures for exams swiftly. I could have agree with Tim Leunig, but only if the curriculums would be based on learning rather than memorizing. As a teacher candidate whose major is mathematics, I still think that I am just memorizing it. However, I need to study for the sixth math exam of one of my math classes at the end of the day...
Confucius five virtues indicate that cultivated knowledge is more important than creativity. Arguably, creativity should be seen as a process; a process that can be repeated and carefully thought out. Knowledge can guide that creativity & innovation.
I understood Sir Ken Robinson's speech as we are lacking to provide opportunities for kids to use their creativity/ imagination. I don't think he criticised schools for their teaching contents but its industorial model - repetitive, cookie cutter, worksheet-oriented model. I totally agree with Tim Leunig on the importance of knowledge to implement creativity but I don't feel that he and Sir Ken have opposite viewpoints. Have I misunderstood the whole context or missed the point?
you dont need to be educated to be creative, you dont even need to go to a school to be creative............. reading are the foundation on copying others "beliefs". in fact you can sit down and do notthing and still be so creative, and full of wisdom. its all about the mindset of the person..
I disagree you cant really put use to the ideas you have unless you know the basics of the subject .... and that creativity you have which is not being put to use is no good of a creativity it doesnt matter if you have it or not because you are not making use of it for yourself or others! you need to understand the the rules before you break them. and you cant have any beliefs on any topic if you dont know that topic exists and reading is not the only source of education here.
Human photocopiers are very good in teamwork? History is "actually" everything, knowing how and why is science and applying the knowledge creatively might keep up with inevitable change.
Not convincing... Creative minds are capable of working without any preset knowledge as minds illusionary, imaginative and immersive powers may be capable of knowing the unknown and transforming impossible possible...
often times many creative people dont know what to do with their creative intelligence .... because the dont have the basic knowledge on the topic . i guess what you are confusing education with school system. you can get educated from various places like reading a book watching a movie or generally surfing on the subject for your own interest. as they say you need to understand the rules before you break them .
I think this guy needs to sit in on his own classes and see how creative he becomes!...I believe the more knowledge you have the more you can "enhance" creativity but schools are the best at killing the excitement of learning..I learned more in a year of reading books from doctors ,ceo's and scientist than I did in the entirety of my school life. As soon as I step in a school I start to get bored. When im discovering knowledge for myself im obsessed with learning.
Well said Tim - at SJWMS, in your day, we tried to encourage creativity and knowledge. I taught Philosophy to encourage teenagers to think for themselves...but then came the "one size fits all" National Curriculum. It even reached A level Philosophy. Early one morning I was marking a sheaf of scripts for a well-known Exam Board...and realised I was marking the same model essay which every candidate had memorised - some better than others. Pressures on teachers like me had led to this kind of "knowledge" being taught. That day I decided - no more secondary, no more examining...and went into free-lance lecturing.
I'm going to use a mathematical analogy because it both demonstrates the flaw with the criticism advanced in this talk, and because, in the context of RUclips comment sections such an analogy is, well, creative.
Creativity equals knowledge times flexibility of mind, where each variable lies between 0 (none) and 1 (full). That is
C=kf
Tim Leunig argues that we need to focus on knowledge to achieve creativity, and that Keith Robinson's approach will detract from the development of knowledge. But what Keith Robinson really argued is that flexibility of mind has a negative relationship with knowledge due to the way it is taught, that is
f=1-k
Elements like an emphasis on single standard answers to questions, and a focus on assessment and conformity in practice works against the development of flexibility of mind, and therefore creativity. In this case, the increase in knowledge works against creativity, irrespective of the necessity of knowledge for creativity. Mathematically,
C = k - k^2
But this doesn't have to be. Education shouldn't cause this negative relationship if it also focuses on training the flexibility of mind. In that case, flexibility of mind could be independent of knowledge, or even better, enhanced by knowledge. That is
f=f0 + nk, where n is a training factor associated to knowledge of mind flexibility techniques (that tails off when f tends to 1, for mathematical consistency).
Thus creativity could be
C=kf0 + nk^2
if education is appropriately developed.
So, in summary, Tim Leunig argues not just that knowledge is essential for creativity (it is) but also, by his criticism of Keith Robinson, that flexibility of mind is irrelevant. On this, Keith Robinson is correct, education systems do seem to reduce the flexibility of mind on average, by focusing the students into inflexible thinking habits, thus reducing creativity. But these systems don't have to.
This is a really smart way to digest the information
love it!
Great talk! Challenging this belief that creativity is somehow independent from knowledge is so important, especially if we are to have the kind of world-changing creativity Tim speaks about here.
no
This is an interesting idea. Creativity and knowledge can and should work together, but I have seen times that education has stifled creativity. True learning and good teaching do add to a person's tool box of talents and knowledge to create, but what we learn isn't always what our teachers are trying to teach us. Traditional forms of learning and education are not the answer to increasing creativity. Freedom is the key to creativity. The structure in schools can severely limit creativity, because of conformity, competition, and standardization. Students aren't free to learn what they want, they have to jump through hoops and please professors for a grade. They are not free to explore their majors of choice, they can only choose between a predetermined list of classes.Scarcity of knowledge is a problem, and I agree with that. Too many people don't know history, so it is repeating it's self over and over. People don't know themselves and they don't have the tools to thrive in life. Common sense isn't so common anymore. I'm just not convinced public education is the answer for these problems, or that it will magically add more creativity into the world as more people get degrees. Colleges and public schools don't have a monopoly on truths, education, and teaching. Colleges and public schools are just the ones who have controlled the information in our recent past. Religions used to have power to educate and sway public opinion, but now a days they don't have as much sway as public education institutions today.Just like self published authors are changing the need to join a book publisher to share their art. Just like independent musicians no longer need to sell their rights to publishers to share their music. Self educated people will not be stopped from learning and teaching others just because Colleges and Schools want to hold on to that power. Knowledge comes from just living life. Learning and knowledge should be free. I have learned more from my free education than I have ever learned sitting in a classroom.Over all I liked his ideas, they were interesting. I think the biggest problem I have with this video is with the word "real" creativity. Like there is a fake creativity. Like if you have a degree or the right education, it somehow makes creativity more real than someone without the right credentials. Creativity isn't something that can be taught. It is an inherent part of being human. If schools understood their role in educating students as unique independent creative beings; that the education received in schools should facilitate that learner's creativity and life aspirations; that the student isn't in school to conform to the school, to social norms, to the other students, or to some national standard; that a student shouldn't be judged based on their interests, rate of learning, their ability to sit still and be quiet, or for the way they express themselves; Ken Robinson message might not appeal so universally. I wish public schools had the power to do all these things individually for the students, but it is not designed for the individual. Ken Robinson inspires, this man has interesting ideas, but I didn't feel inspired.
Thank you!
As a "creative" myself*, educated primarily in "alternative schools" and learning on my own, I resonate with your response.
Thank you!
I feel validated!
*I design and build custom stained glass windows; also have worked in graphic design and offset printing, and editing/proofreading, as well as teaching English in highschool. I also read widely, and write.
The broad scope of my experience and study has made me who I am today.
They way sir is explaining it is amazingly important
I am great humbled to learn from these speakers
I think you're proving Sir Ken Robinson's point here. His point is that students have differing strengths and learn in different ways. Some students need the arts to be able to gain knowledge. Using art or a kinesthetic modality to help students learn science is more along the lines of his point. But because you have decided that art or dance is being compared to science, it undermines the population of students who learn best through movement. Whether they plan to be dancers or not, movement helps them learn best. Same with the connection between music and math. (see Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences for reference).
We don't actually ''learn'' when the only important things are grades and exams to finish the school and have a job, and we don't actually ''learn'' when teachers just covering the lectures for exams swiftly. I could have agree with Tim Leunig, but only if the curriculums would be based on learning rather than memorizing. As a teacher candidate whose major is mathematics, I still think that I am just memorizing it. However, I need to study for the sixth math exam of one of my math classes at the end of the day...
Confucius five virtues indicate that cultivated knowledge is more important than creativity. Arguably, creativity should be seen as a process; a process that can be repeated and carefully thought out. Knowledge can guide that creativity & innovation.
I understood Sir Ken Robinson's speech as we are lacking to provide opportunities for kids to use their creativity/ imagination.
I don't think he criticised schools for their teaching contents but its industorial model - repetitive, cookie cutter, worksheet-oriented model.
I totally agree with Tim Leunig on the importance of knowledge to implement creativity but I don't feel that he and Sir Ken have opposite viewpoints.
Have I misunderstood the whole context or missed the point?
Wonderful piece, creative application of knowledge will aid creativity
Great video! Wish this one were as well known as the original Ken Robinson one.
I agree that creativity is based on knowledge but... 8:02 is wrong.
you dont need to be educated to be creative, you dont even need to go to a school to be creative............. reading are the foundation on copying others "beliefs". in fact you can sit down and do notthing and still be so creative, and full of wisdom. its all about the mindset of the person..
jezioo I agree
I disagree you cant really put use to the ideas you have unless you know the basics of the subject .... and that creativity you have which is not being put to use is no good of a creativity it doesnt matter if you have it or not because you are not making use of it for yourself or others! you need to understand the the rules before you break them. and you cant have any beliefs on any topic if you dont know that topic exists and reading is not the only source of education here.
no entendes nada pete
Human photocopiers are very good in teamwork?
History is "actually" everything, knowing how and why is science and applying the knowledge creatively might keep up with inevitable change.
Great.
Super-Impressive talk - !
no
If I saw further, it was because I had a good pair of specs...
He's confusing creativity with innovation.
Oof, way to combat Ken Robinson
Not convincing...
Creative minds are capable of working without any preset knowledge as minds illusionary, imaginative and immersive powers may be capable of knowing the unknown and transforming impossible possible...
often times many creative people dont know what to do with their creative intelligence .... because the dont have the basic knowledge on the topic . i guess what you are confusing education with school system. you can get educated from various places like reading a book watching a movie or generally surfing on the subject for your own interest. as they say you need to understand the rules before you break them .
pete
@Benjamin Nilson pete
Just a bit too self absorbed. If this was intended as a message to his daughter, he could work on his father daughter relationship.
It was not intended as such, but perhaps I will send her a link...