Philips changes terms after the sale: requires data-sharing account to use a light bulb...
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- www.home-assis...
amzn.to/3ER3tuJ
👉 Merchandise: store.rossmann...
🔵 Cheesy mugs & t-shirts: bit.ly/rossman...
👉 Rossmann chat: matrix.to/#/#rossmannrepair:matrix.org
👉 Equipment used:
🔵 Chair: ebay.us/uYLTzn
🔵 Chair: amzn.to/49ldfme
🔵 Microphone: amzn.to/3g1hsok
🔵 Mic stand: amzn.to/3Vg47ZI
🔵 Audio interface: amzn.to/3VuKihx
🔵 Camera: amzn.to/3CTk1Av
🔵 Lighting: amzn.to/3RSriGC
👉 Stream FAQ: store.rossmann...
👉 Affiliate:
› Buying on eBay? Support us while you shop! www.rossmanngr...
› Rossmann Repair Group Inc is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com
👉 Leave a tip for us via cryptocurrency if we've helped you out:
› Credit card: bit.ly/postames...
› Bitcoin: 1EaEv8DBeFfg6fE6BimEmvEFbYLkhpcvhj
› Bitcoin Cash: qzwtptwa8h0wjjawr5fsm0ku8kf40amgqgm6lx4jxh
› Dash: XwQpZuvMvU44JT7C7Uh6xHvkSadzJw9fMN
› Dogecoin: DKetsoCvwa2hF29ssgUA4Wz4hxT4kj3KLU
› Ethereum: 0x6f6870feb48f08388ee345cf0261e2f03d2fa310
› Ethereum classic: 0x671bfd61ba87edf6365c97cea33d66ba73645510
› Litecoin: LWnbTTAjojZQt68ihFJFgQq3cYHUsTcyd7
› Verge: DFumZ5sMhi3JktLQpsTVtV9xUt3zKDrcZV
› Zcash: t1Ko3FkphQYoQroQc8k2DVk4WKMAbmNR8PH
› Zcoin: a8QdvArHmdRYe1MjiqtP6jDNe6Z4JgnRKZ
This was the strangest Chanel ad I've ever seen
amzn.to/3ER3tuJ
Yeah that Green (Blue?) bottle looks very nice and conservative
@@TymexComputing I like mine on the rocks! 🥃😁
@@rossmanngroup I mean i like that is not invasive, i quite don't mind it as long is kept non invasive like that.
When I saw that, I was like "WTF did I just watch". Then, I remembered this comment, which I read before I watched the video. If I hadn't read the comment first, I don't know how I would have taken that. I guess it's a sign of a good ad when the viewer isn't sure if it was an ad or maybe Louis just got a bit weird. 😄 Hey, we're engaging with it. Joke's on us. 🤣
Lightbulbs having terms of service in the first place is utterly insane
We passed insane a few years ago. We have reach ludicrous level.
Designing literally everything so that it connects to the internet was probably the worst route we could've taken.
There's no reason these smart homes and automated gadgets couldn't operate from a closed circuit system. I built my own simple version of a lot of these things that runs off an arduino. Someday I'll probably swap over to run off a Raspberry pi if I run into any significant limitations.
No reason these companies can't design things the same way.
@Rawko666 yeah you have a sensible approach that isn't very "corporate friendly"
@@Breadbored. Personal data is a much more lucrative buisness, that's why, and that is why every user needs to get payed instead of paying for it.
Any appliance having a ToS is insane. However, that is how companies seem to want to make IoT devices nowadays...
Changing the terms of service should only apply to future purchases, not to already existing products. You shouldn't be allowed to change the terms of service for products that people already own. The law shouldn't even allow this. This is like changing a contract after people signed it.
This is what I think too.
It's essentially the same thing, and I believe it should count as false advertising at the very least
You buy a product, come home and the rules have changed? How is that not false advertising?
I don't care if it was 5 minutes after you bought the product, or 15 years. You still bought it under one premise, and now its running under another.
I'll do you one better. There should be a definite legal distinction between what is a product and what is a service. Physical items with self-contained functionality are products, and they should not be allowed to have terms of service at all, let alone have them change. You sold me a lightbulb, it's my fucking lightbulb.
Products should not be allowed to require vendor-locked services to function. If for some inane reason my lightbulbs need a server to turn on, I should be allowed to choose who provides that server to me, including myself if I can set it up.
@@PoldovicoAbsolutely this!
Technically it is illegal in contract law, but that line "we may change our terms at any time without warning or approval" you agree to when installing the app protects them on that front. What SHOULD be illegal is mandatory Terms of Service, every "thing" should have an offline ToS-less mode, even videogame consoles.
@@KiraSlith It does not actually protect them regardless of if they write than in their terms of service, it is still against the law to change anything in the ToS after the sale have been done, in most places in the world, including at least the entire EU
Retroactive removal of features after the sale needs to be made both a civil cause of action and a criminal offense. It's theft plain and simple.
I currently have my last Samsung phone and they frequently change tos all the time.
Samsung: What are you gonna do? Install a bad custom rom because we don't open source our drivers?
I also have a few hue lights lets see if they will continue to work via the bridge api.
Microsoft stole the smart out of my smart speakers. Unfortunately my state isnt a good state to start a class action, and apparently no one did.
In the usa, it is not allowed to ever call a company to account.
Do not buy stuff from companies that don't care about you, only themselves. 😮 don't expect our corrupt lawmakers to change this.
Agreed
with a generous sprinkling of fraud.
"we have altered the deal. Pray we don't alter it any further." - Philips Vader
This deal's getting worse all the time
All devices requiring a cloud service to work should come with a warning sticker having red and yellow text that takes up one of the larger sides of the packaging.
expiration date like food
Uh they should also be fucking free.
The worst part is no light needs to be on the cloud. They should all work over your local network when connected, but that would cost slightly more to implement
In Australia, this is illegal.
Consumer laws protect against this. It makes the product "not fit for purpose" if you say your reason for buying it was the advertised feature "x" and now product does not do "x". You are entitled to a full refund, plus costs incurred.
All it takes is someone to report them to the ombudsman.
oh so cute, he thinks rule of law is still real after covid.
Was looking for this, and unlike many stateside laws it cant be contracted away.
Yep, any aussie owners of these lights should take them back to Bunnings (or wherever they bought them) and demand a full refund. If refused, report to the ACCC and lodge a case with your states regulator (DMIRS in WA).
I'll be joining the better country in the next few years mate :)
This is *all about* the new *"Energy Saving"* regulations coming in to force globally! You may have heard of Smart Meters replacing existing electrical meters. That is because electric companies are now responsible for reporting the energy consumption of all customers on a continuous basis.
By producing *"Smart Lighting,"* Phillips became responsible for logging all use by every customer on that same continuous basis to meet those same reporting requirements _that previously did not exist._
Check your laws again; you are in a Commonwealth country, and I *know* as fact that the U.K. _has_ passed and *is now enforcing* those new regulations!
Most of the E.U. is still converting in accordance with those same regulations, and the U.S.A. is too. It's part of the "Net Zero 2050" process, and *every First-World country has signed an agreement that this conversion **_will be completed_** by 2030!*
Phillips: Your information is at risk because no one has access to it due to it being offline. For privacy and security, we are connecting it to the interet to gain access to your information. "
Is there even a more textbook example of gaslighting?
Yep, it's dumb. I preferred to not be logged in and thus not have my lights able to be controlled remotely.
Guess we call it hue lighting now...
For sure sometime in the future you’ll find your Hue data has been leaked onto have you been pwned. The worst reprimand they could get would probably be a fine and that goes to the government.
hope they get sued into oblivion for this. we need example of companys dying so that this stops
@@robinspanier7017socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.
EAT YOUR CRUMBS PEASANT
This isn't the first time Philips has done something like this. Many years ago (2015) when these smart devices became available, Philips bulbs would work with equipment from other companies. Philips sent a firmware update through that broke functionality with all equipment not made by or "approved by" Philips. That should have been your clue never to buy from Philips. They have done this before
We're showing our age. I too recall this.
@@rlux70 You are scared you remember things from 8 years ago? If you don't, you are either a child or have Alzheimer's😆
worse, it's philips brand.. not the proper philips we used to know and love, they made good qusality speakers and such.. this is not philips, this is shit.
yup, from that point on they could eat shit as far as I'm concerned
I use a hue motion sensor directly through zigbee and it's a seriously impressive little thing. The hue bridge and its software can jump off a cliff along with their overpriced unremarkable dim lights.
Wyze pulled the same thing. Sold me a security camera that has a memory card in it and it worked great. A few months later they changed their terms of service where it would no longer give a few seconds of video based on motion unless I subscribed to their online service. When I reached out to them, they were the same way. "Sorry you feel this way.....blah blah blah.....tossed their garbage and super pissed about the $140 I spent on it.
Will not be buying from wyze, thanks for the warning.
We are in a time where even a janitor should know a programming language and how to handle a soldering iron. Otherwise we are collectively f'ked
Security is an important factor to consider for lightbulbs, wouldn't want your lightbulb to get hacked, If only there was a way to run lightbulbs offline, but the technology just isn't there.
unfortunately lightbulbs now need SSL, a simple on/off switch won't work.
LOL
@@bandanaboii3136sorry, you can't turn the lights on in your house. Either port 443 is blocked, or your light bulbs are missing a CA cert.
Is this meant to be sarcastic? There is a plethora of ways to run "smart" lightbulbs entirely offline. The entire premise of the video is on the fact that Philips used to allow you to. Matter, Zigbee, Thread and Bluetooth (which are all currently supported by Philips) are among the most popular systems, none of which even require wifi, nevermind an internet connection to be run entirely locally. This is also disregarding the fact that light switches still cut power, and work just fine with a Philips Light bulb (a pretty great way of running things offline, I would say). Again, you're joking, right?
Yep, and smart lights could also be used as part of a DDoS attack, potentially leading your ISP to restrict service
The moment Philips app starts to ask for an account, I'll literally pull them all from my ceiling, grab the receipt (which I actually still have because I bought them for business), and go back to the store.
Edit: Oh my - I opened the app and it actually prompts about the account requirement. I'm waiting for the app to change and then I'll just go back to the store to tell them the lights stopped functioning. I'm from the Netherlands, I'm a member of a consumer rights organization, i have "lawyer insurance" (don't know the english term; basically if you need a lawyer, any lawyer fees are covered by insurance) and the Netherlands has much stricter consumer protection laws than the US.
I'm getting sick of this BS.
Bring that heat right to their metaphorical doorstep 👍
In the U.S., it’s called “legal protection insurance” or “legal insurance,” but “pre-paid legal services” are more common here than true insurance.
isnt philips a dutch company?...I think it is kind of ironic 😄
@@sabarbar11 I'm sure it was, at some point, yes. Who knows what tax-heaven they moved their HQ to this year.
I don’t have an account and I don’t see the prompt. I guess it’s because my Hue bridge is connected to an account? Maybe if you have a hue bridge, they don’t care what you do. But those cost about the same as the bulbs
Do not forget about the time amazon shut off smart home features because some guy had an automated greeting and the delivery guy either misheard or lied about a racist situation. Stop supporting companies that force YOU to ask them for permission to use the products that YOU have purchased. Thank you Louis for bringing these issues to the lime-light.
If he passes the right to "change of mind", then he has officially 3 laws under his credit: RTR, RTC, RTCOM.
It rates right up there with the companies that had a free service and then shifted to a paid model. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first step in the process for this to happen with the Hue stuff. This is why I use a lot of things that can be flashed over to ESPHome or stuff that I can build with ESP32's and ESP8266's and open source software packages like ESPHome, ESPresense, and WLED. In a lot of ways I can do even more and the control doesn't go away just because the internet went down or a server is being DOS attacked.
Was the companies defamation insurance adequate?
That's why I only want to use open source and self hosted smart home devices in the future. I don't want a company do have control over my home
Being a racist is not illegal. Acting upon it is.
"We're sorry you feel this way." OMG, that statement right there exposes the mindset of these criminals. Absolutely enraging. I've been in the process of putting in Hue bulbs as the old bulbs in my house fail. They're getting chucked in the trash today.
I threw out my Arlo front door camera for the same reason.
The only people that need to know my personal information are my credit union and businesses I have a financial relationship with. Everyone else can F right off.
chuck them at the store that sold them to you (if there isn't a company hq nearby)
i wonder if they couldve been jailbroken
This crap HAS TO STOP! Thank you Louis. I just closed all of my accounts with Chase Bank because of a PRIVACY WALL that prevented me from seeing my balances unless I agree to their "updated terms". F them....I'm OUT!
thank you for all your work, we need more people like this to share the ugly truths we have all been gaslighted to ignore. A sale is a contract, changing the rules on that contract should invalidate it and philips should be forced to refund each and every of those light bulbs.
the law should be changed so that deciding to refuse unacceptable terms changed after purchase triggers a full refund.
...or how about if you refuse, they can't do it
@@scpatl4nowthis would be best but you know lobbyists wouldn't allow this law to pass. They would be more apt to do a full refund.
That still allows bait and swap. And terms changed 2 years into a 10 year product ...
Keep it offline, it never gets the update...
If you need remote access, a local DNS can take care of the filtering. I'd do it regardless of the terms or updates, jus for "security reasons", but my own, not Phillips or anyone else's.
@@BrianKhoyibait and swap isn't already illegal? In that case, couldn't users make a class action?
"I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it any further".
Philips literally joined the dark side.
Yes, Signify ( the company split off from Phillips) responsible for *light*ing joins the *dark* side. How ironic. Let's help them turn off the lights on their factories by refusing to buy their wares anymore.
This notice was sent to me as I use their Smart Bulbs. I refused to agree to their terms of service. I no longer use them as smart devices. How I use my lights is none of their business. Thank you for posting this information.
Finally someone talks about this. I was so mad at Philips when the app told me this. I own several of their expensive bulbs and the bridge, and the only reason I purchased was to not need a user account. This isn’t right that they’d do this to existing owners, and I will NEVER purchase any of their Hue items ever again and will be disposing of mine when they enforce this change.
I have a number still, and just to let you know, they *can* be used offline, but you have to have some special tools to do so. Namely, any other zigbee hub can control them, so long as you can get them into their original reset state. The only way to do that is to either use the hue-thief program and a dongle, or to have the gen1 remote that can directly override the bulbs and reset them.
I've done it and they work great with HomeAssistant offline, but I definitely would not recommend buying them anymore unless you happen to already have all that equipment 😅
Wow, thank you for that helpful detail. I might have a gen 1 remote, so I’ll check into the resources you’ve shared. Sincere thanks 🙏. No future business to Philips Hue though.
replace the hue hub with homeassisten and a zigbee dongle.
I only disabled the hue bridge access to the internet from my router settings and also disabled the hue app (I don't auto update so I don't have the latest version and never saw the notification anyway). Instead I use an app called Home which is open source from GitHub. Everything is working offline as intended without any further tools.
Smart home enthusiasts have very harsh opinions of Philips. It's my perception that they're all well deserved
NGL, I was fairly indifferent up until this. I have a hue hub and some ZigBee lights connected. Hub isn't signed into their cloud bs but talks to home assistant server and a few other local devices. If they do this then that hub is going in the bin and getting replaced by the my esp32 ZigBee gateway, way less polished to use but at least I'm not bullied into cloud bs that way.
@@RossMitchellsProfileif they disable functionality its basically blackmailing through the use of malware.
Should contact a lawyer in that case.
@@RossMitchellsProfile Just block internet access for this specific devices or for the whole ,,smart home" network. Should be just fine if the current firmware isn't programmed to block device without account.
@@draxianhyserski1654 will probably just block the hue from connecting to internet. Thankfully my lighting isn't WiFi lighting, it all works over ZigBee.
@@draxianhyserski1654 I don't know if this is the case, but it's possible that they already programmed a kill switch into the firmware so that it fails to work after a certain date if you do not share your data with them.
Changing the terms after selling a product "just because we can" is no doubt disgusting, because leaves the consumer no choice. But the ability to put any terms they want in the first place is much more more dangerous, because the consumer may end up with no choice at all even before buying something.
I'm the last person to think we need more laws for anything, but in this case, changing the terms of service in such a way that a customer that already bought a product will lose functionality after they already purchased it should be illegal. Its theft. Pure and simple.
@@ZundfolgeIt is illegal in most jurisdictions, you can’t change the terms of a contract after it’s signed even if the EULA or ToS says they can, they still can’t force you to sign the new contract in most jurisdictions. If the product is non-functional due to a change in the contract they do in fact owe you damages for the cost of replacing the product. The catch is these devices are so low value that nobody is willing to spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of litigation to take the matter to court. As an example in Douglas v. Talk America. The court held that a business must notify users about proposed changes to the TOS *and* obtain their consent. You are not required to consent to the new ToS.
@@DigitalMoonlight But we all know they are doing it. Name any big company (which operates in a lot of jurisdictions) that says "we won't upgrade software/change tarif plan/sell your data until we receive your consent". Noone ever says that, they just behave like you consent, and unlikely to be going to do something even if you explicitly inform they that you don't.
@@Zundfolge Couldn't agree more
Most companies are hiding behind the "The terms of service is subject to change without any prior notice". That's as good as having no TOS at all. lol
if there was any justice in this world, philips would be required to buy back any products from people who do not agree to the altered terms
Yeah keep dreaming. That's not gonna happen.
Those products have aged, and they cannot simply just resell them.
Better if Louis Rossman could pass a right to "change of mind" so that consumers can legally opt out of such TOS changes.
At MSRP or their receipt price, whichever is greater
@@clusterstage Oh, we're well aware that that's not what WILL happen, he's just saying that's what SHOULD happen.
@@c182SkylaneRG Nope. I'm not fighting you.
I changed my mind and I think it should be a right for all consumers. #rightTOchangeOFmind
@@clusterstagewell I can’t simply use product thag don’t fit my needs they all going in the trash 😂😂😂 goofy philips should give full refunds. No thank you Philips theft
This channel deserves a humanitarian award for doing the research for us for free. Awesome work, and thanks!!
Thank you for the head's up Mr. Rossmann! Thumb up!
This just makes me want to question Philips Hue's CEO and ask: "you REALLY think connecting a device to the internet and a remote cloud service is MORE SECURE than keeping it offline?"
That's the question we never get to ask anyone in charge because they're always hiding behind their bulletproof walled garden.
it's more secure for them, since they can control you, making you less of a threat to their system
It's more secure for their revenue flow.
Signify owns philips hue Royal Philips does not
This is *all about* the new *"Energy Saving"* regulations coming in to force globally! You may have heard of Smart Meters replacing existing electrical meters. That is because electric companies are now responsible for reporting the energy consumption of all customers on a continuous basis.
By producing *"Smart Lighting,"* Phillips became responsible for logging all use by every customer on that same continuous basis to meet those same reporting requirements _that previously did not exist!_
Most of the E.U. is still converting in accordance with those same regulations, and the U.S.A. is too. It's part of the "Net Zero 2050" process, and *every First-World country has signed an agreement that this conversion **_will be completed_** by 2030!*
It's really nice how big companies can just say no when asked to follow the law.
Contracts would be so much more fun for me if only the other side had to stick to their part but I could change everything as I please.
Right to "CHANGE OF MIND", will be a real thing.
When it becomes more relevant for all contracts, especially in cases like this. #rightToCHANGEofMIND
they can change the terms unilaterally, why dont we do the same?
Make EULA's illegal and unenforceable.
because its illegal for us consumers. im not an expert, so ill believe their lawyers behavior instead that changing their terms is perfectly legal loophole.@@draconightwalker4964
To be fair in most jurisdictions if a company unilaterally alters a contract you as a customer are automatically no longer bound by it.
Whenever someone speaks of security, the thing anyone should ask, everyone should ask: for whom is this secure? More often than not, "security" brought up in this context means the financial security of the company you're paying for the device, not the security of your data, nor physical security.
You would think the invention of Wi-Fi lightbulbs would be very openly advised against by security industries. Literally never been a concern before this decade for very good reason.
Louis, keep doing what you're doing! Keep being a good trouble maker! 💪
Thank you for doing these videos.
I work at Philips (not in the area that works on the lights) and this company is such a mess right now. They're dealing with a huge recall now and hemorrhaging money and my guess is they are trying to figure out more ways to suck the cash out of their customers. If you could see the inner workings of the company like I do, it would all make sense why they are doing this kind of thing.
Hate to see you lose your job but I will be happy if that company fails.
I read an article suggesting exactly what you say. Is it leadership? Something else?
@@DrRussell Leadership definitely has a part to play in it... all these things start from the top. The company is just so large and inefficient. Many people do no work at all, while some are super overworked. There is also a lack of good management all over the company. They are also dropping products left and right... even ones that benefit the public a lot.
@@jakep519l believe it was sold out it's a Chinese company now.
The "old" philips giant is dead. This company is its remains. They don't even make their own products anymore right? what a sad way to go
If they have the ability to change the terms at any time, it's pretty much like saying that there are no terms in the first place.
oh there are terms. they own you and anything they want to do with you or anything you own for as long as you want to continue use of the product and possibly after.
I mean, changing the terms is not really a problem, the problem is they applying those terms to already existing products, or locking you out of already existing features or the entire product if you don't agree with the new ones, I'm pretty sure that's also ilegal, and if sued, they would lose.
I do think that if they want to do this, they not only should refound the entire cost of the product, but also the costs of the installation and removal of their product, and also, pay for a replacement and installation of that replacement, since they're breaking a contract unilaterally, they should pay for the costs of it.
First thing they put in the terms is always "terms may change over time". I've rejected many contracts with this clause.
To be fair, there shouldn't even be any TOS on a physical product that you buy from a shop or online shop, unless it is an item that is going to be developed over time, like an online game, and even for those, there should be a law that makes them not be able to either aply those TOS on products sold before the TOS was made, or that doesn't let them change the TOS on a way that change how you use your product.
But having it on a physical product is BS, you're not reading any TOS before going to a shop and buying a light bulb lol, so those TOS shouldn't aply to you, since you never signed that TOS before you paid, since you're supposed to pay if you agree, can't pay before you know the contract.@@magnusnilsson9792
So effectively, if you do not comply, they are breaking the product remotely. Isn't that considered property damage? Or worse, blackmail?
Blackmail, no. Extortion or hostage taking, absolutely.
And bait and switch
False Advertising definitely.
Love your rants! I have the exact same feelings as you about right to repair. I have been trying to survive in the electronic field service industry my entire life with a degree and struggle with making enough money. Listening to you doesn't really help me to elevate my mood towards life. It only reassures similar stress I have about fighting to survive living in New York state. I think if I listen to enough of your videos I too will be able to get enough courage to up and move out of the state as well. Thank you for venting on here, I am still not too sure if it is healthy for me to listen or if it is a good use of my time yet to listen to you rant and rave. But it gets me to laugh. Thanks man.
I feel the same way about the apps and operating systems in our phones. When I first purchased my LG phone, one of the selling points was the camera app, especially because you could always record a video by hitting the red button that was always there, as well as some ergonomic features unlike others. Then, LG followed the crowd and forced an update that followed Apple's stupid UI that makes you to swipe through a worded menu to start recording a video, as well as eliminating my favorite features. Since phone video has become an essential tool in legal battles, the ability to record a video immediately without distraction should always take priority, and forcing more time consuming steps to do this removed a tool that I specifically bought the phone for. I'm sure many people have features they agree should not have changed. I just want it to work as well as it did when I bought it.
Did they actually market this as a feature? If so, they can be sued.
Sony lost in court when they took Linux away from the PlayStation.
Lol I remember that. Sony removed Linux in hopes ps3 hacks would stop. Then months later the PS3 master keys got released to the public which eventually led to PlayStation Network servers shutting down for almost an entire summer.
So In short removing Linux didn’t do shit lol.
They never reverted the damage, so what exactly did they lose?
@@0LoneTech They lost a chunk of change, but they're still laughing all the way to the bank
@@Grogeous_Maximus
What they lost is like an average person losing like 150$
how about cross-progression functionality on Dead By Daylight for Nintendo Switch.
advertised as releasing 3 years ago when i bought this product. i've been stuck on this version (with less features including controls and communication) this whole time paying them money for sunk cost and fomo because i want to be able to play with my account on the pc like i was told i'd be able to 3 years ago when i made the initial purchase. there have since been time-limited purchases that i've been forced to either jump on or miss out on for forever. i just keep giving them money because if i don't i won't be able to do what i paid to do 3 years ago. which is play with this account on the pc version (which i've also purchased, i just didn't have access to my pc at first so Started on the Switch with the Intent to cross that progression to the pc when i was able to use mine WHICH IS WHAT THEY ADVERTISED i'd be able to do WHEN I MADE THE PURCHASE.)
This is what I was afraid of. Retroactive TOS changes are going to happen more often now. Unity has opened Pandora's Box.
the future is open source imo, electrical engineering can be a fun hobby, esp32 and raspberry pi can do everything.
ToS aren't Fair Contracts. Start suing Companies that change their ToS and Demand Courts to set the Presidence that it should be ILLEGAL to CHANGE a contract WITHOUT PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES INVOLVED UNANIMOUSLY! How is a Contract FAIR, if 1 side holds ALL THE POWER, and can CHANGE the Contract and RETROACTIVELY Apply Punishment they add in later, vs the other side who can do NOTHING and can't even force the 1 side to UPHOLD and ENFORCE the contract!
ToS' and EULA's are ILLEGAL Contracts, they do NOT Follow Contract Laws! Thus should NEVER be binding nor enforcable, and should be ILLEGAL to try and enforce it!
@@Jirodyne They are Darth Vader: "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
Hasbro, actually. And even more before them.
This isn’t like Pandora’s Box at all. Pandora had no idea what would happen when she opened that box, but Unity knew damn well what they were doing.
Your point toward the end is very important: it’s fine for companies to make and sell products like this and let consumers decide if they want to buy them. What isn’t okay is changing the rules on them post sale
Thank you for all your hard work. Ill make sure to share this and make sure no one buys Phillips again✌️ love your hard work and dedication 😊
After so many data breaches from big names such as Facebook, Twitter, Whatapps , et al, our data must be dirt cheap.
"Security"
The corps are just learning this behavior from the government. Give people perceived security to basically steal from them.
Changing the terms should require the acceptance of all parties involved. If one party does not accept it shouldn't mean that your device is now bricked. As they are preventing you from using your property as originally intended.
But since lawyers cost money, I doubt they will get the lawsuit that they deserve.
The company should only be able to change the terms of service at any time, if I also can change the terms of service at any time. If we do not have equal rights to change the contract, then the contract is not an agreement among equal parties which violates the first principle of contract law.
Unfortunately, many ToS have this "no account termination means consent to the changes" aspect in their ToS. Microsoft in particular comes to mind, but I remember bigger technology companies also have it.
I live in the Netherlands. Dont having these issues luckily.. also.. not using the echo dot anymore for hue..
As a way around this, I believe you could use the Hue lights on homebridge (hosted on local server on raspberry pi or NAS) without a login. But then again I’m unaware if that works with home assistant
It gets so much worse. The manufacturers that have these "back doors" connected to their servers will often negligently let hackers in and destroy your devices. The same manufacturers will then BLAME YOU for their own failings and refuse to warranty your devices after that happens.
Ugh.
Ergo IoT devices should go on a segmented IoT network that is properly set up to avoid talking with anything they don't need to
@@railerswimI didn't even think about this until he mentioned it in the video, I'm going to do exactly that now - setup a virtual networks for these devices
no problem with hue lights. just use homeassistent instead of the hue hub.
the bulbs itselve cant connect to the internet, the dont even have wifi, just zigbee.
A light bulb?!
This has to be a joke!
It is moronic that you need to have an internet connection in order to turn on your lights. I agree with Louis, I am trying very hard to remove as many internet connected devices as I can from my home.
Flash ESPHome and set up Home Assistand, that is what I do
I programmed my own security camera setup which stores on my local NAS where I can access it via VPN to my home network from the outside. It is not rocket science. Also even a Raspberry is so fast that motion detection on HD video coming in is trivial.
I am searching for a ZigBee capable board to program my own ZigBee bridge. The protocol ZigBee over TCP (to be able to send ZigBee commands via your computer/cellphone) is open.
It's moronic that that people buy these things. Remember when Amazon Alexa called the police on it's users or branded them racists?
@@MAGAMAN Or car drivers not being able to open the garage door?
Bro I had these cheap Wi-Fi lightbulbs 😩. Biggest mistake. Had to have an app to use them. Had to take off the lamp shades and unscrew the lightbulbs, reset the router, and launch them from the app any time the network went down. It was low enough tech to have come with a cheap remote & receiver instead of all of that Wi-Fi shit.
I was having trouble with my $5 doorbell 😂 so I decided to buy one with a camera for extra security. But to my shock (I’m gen X) I saw they needed a SUBSCRIPTION to use it. I said nah, and bought myself a country bell instead, an actual metallic ringing bell. It’s pretty with birds, and battery free!
That's insane, thanks for pointing it out Louis!
Lowes did this at some point recently with all their tools. Since I can remember, they had a "we'll replace your tools, no questions asked" policy. This is for their basic hand tools like ratchets and wrenches and things, similar to what Craftsman did. Now they require a receipt, which was advertised as NOT needed years ago. The agreement was "no questions asked" when I purchased and is what partially made my decision. Now, if they give me grief at the return counter, I say, "Eh, just throw it away. I'll buy another across the street at HD". I don't buy new tools there anymore.
Not quite as egregious in my opinion since a store's return policy is not (typically) a service contract.
@@GoldenPantaloons It's not the contract that made people purchase from them, it's the old policy, the moment they change the policy is the moment their loyal customer move away.
Employees do not care if you shop at a competitor. They are not shareholders (most likely).
This one I almost would understand. The answer is bad actors ruining things for the rest of us. I’m sorry they aren’t honoring it for you though. But I blame the corporation, for once, less than all the people out there returning ridiculous/stolen merchandise.
This is not legal in the UK, since it changes the functionality of the device after purchase.
Yet it happens all the time
You do it the Unity way - you depreciate/desupport the existing device (firmware only even) and to upgrade you have to accept the new terms. You, the consumer, can choose to stay on the old version that isn't upgraded. Pretty sure you won't find ANYTHING in the TOS that requires the manufacturer to do ANYTHING let alone keep your device firmware up to date, secure etc. Problem solved - law upheld, you got a new product that required you to sign the TOS change.
I don't see the protection here.
@@PL-VA Local laws (statutory rights) will supersede any ToS.
My family only bought Hue because they don't need internet/an account. I am completely shocked.
Same! I bought the stuff because it could be used without internet. I'll literally pull all of my lights out of their sockets as soon as the change is enforced. I have all the receipts and I will go back to the store with all of them.
@@gamebuster800 yess qnd i will send them all back to amazon and the other shops
@@gamebuster800 Upsettingly, the store you bought them from will suffer rather than Philips, as Philips already made their money considerably further back in the chain of sale through suppliers. A retail store likely won't take the time to pursue reimbursement on this as it's not an actual product fault, so suppliers will not honour it. Also, unless retailers see this feature to be detrimental to customers, they will continue to sell these Philips products, so Philips won't see a loss in profit. How many people do you think will go to the trouble of returning these smart lightbulbs because of this change? It's up to consumers to put their foot down now, or nothing will change.
I bought my first Hue Hub when it was just out as a Gen 1 device. It's ALWAYS required internet access - but it would keep responding locally to already set rules if there was no connection. Creating new rules, adopting new devices - good luck without internet.
@@PL-VA mine qlways works without internet
Thanks for the heads-up. I have Hue bulbs, BUT, fortunately they're not connected to the internet. Comcast drove that decision when my connection was dead for over a month and I had to improvise local control.
This is a wonderful example of "enshittification" as very thoroughly described by Cory Doctorow.
never expected myself to be triggered by words but, "sorry you feel this way..." is making me almost instantly flip a table at this point. To be clear i never purchased nothing smart other than a phone.
"Smart" means a lot of different things. On phones, it seems to mean you can install new programs, though some think it means the phone is lacking buttons. Neither of those were new concepts when "smartphone" began being marketed. On other devices, it tends to mean too dumb to have their own controls, requiring management through separate computers, such as those "smart" phones.
I seriously doubt that phrase has EVER been uttered in sincerity. In fact, I don't think it CAN be. It is EXPLICITLY designed to invalidate your feelings and make them your own fault.
@@sultanofsick Consider talking to a conspiracy theorist. They've honed their feelings to an overriding conviction, quite unrelated to truth, and rely on it to excuse hostile behaviours, like accusing almost everyone they meet of being frauds. Can we not express regret at their driving force (though doing so to them is unlikely to help)? Of course, this comparison makes it all the more offensive when this phrase is applied in the most insincere way (essentially "I'm sorry you feel that I shouldn't have harmed you as I have and intend to").
I believe Sylvania did the same. I don't remember my lightbulbs ever requiring an account until a software update. It also now constantly interrupts use of the app to request network and Bluetooth access.
Companies should have to provide a refund once they require consent to continue using the product.
I think the only security that Philips cares about is the securing of more of your money and control of your devices
As with all corporations. Philips only care about their financial security. They do not give a rat ass about their costumers.
Not to mention securing even more money from stealing and selling your data. Yet another way in which companies like these are breaking the law
Spot on!
The new consumers replacing the traditional kind are the data brokers. Providing variety for every market and consumer satisfaction are no longer so relevant to shareholder value. New products are developed as a way of gathering information on people. The ability to be resourceful in gathering data through various means is the new true value of a company.
Welp, that's where it looks like it's going to me anyway.
And control of your personal information.
Well, that’s a shame. Now i have to think twice about any devices and make aure they cant connect. Thank you for the info. 😊
Cree Lighting did the same, apparently after they were sold to Advanced Lighting Technologies, LLC (ADLT).
Bluetooth was working just fine, but now they require a login to do anything (set brightness, color), except power it on and off. Definite loss of functionality, but of course no one will sue over a $30 light bulb.
I'll never touch a "smart home" product after several things like this, plus the absolutely atrocious history of security that IoT (Internet of Trash) devices have.
As long as they're the Hue ZigBee bulbs, you can still use them offline. Just stop using the Phillips hub. Build your own hub (with Home Assistant), or buy a different one.
Was looking for this comment! That's how I have done it. :)
@@DavCro for those that already bought them and are stuck with them, not saying you should still buy their products
Also, ZigBee is a standard, not a workaround
How much you want to bet they anticipate that and block function because it wasn't a "Trusted" (meaning, Phillips) hub?
Or just get regular lightbulbs that do not need anything more than electricity.
The only thing in this world you can trust to always be true, is that any and all companies will only look for their best interest, so all companies are going to be deceitful when it's good for their pocket, rendering your comment useless.@@DavCro
Seems like homebrewing my own home automation was a smart choice
Philips: "We know we sold you a car, but your car is now a boat, deal with it"
Unity: "We should do that, but we should also charge people extra for it"
Every EU Class Action Lawyer: "*drool*"
Both companies have now proven they cannot be trusted to stick to the terms of service at the time of sale/purchase, there is no way to get that trust back. Personally I have opted to have as few IOT devices as possible, and as a result, the only one I currently own is my smartphone, I will die on this hill, if I can't find a non IOT something, I will simply make due without it.
There is a big difference tho, Philips is selling to consumers, so breaking the trust is not really going to affect them at all, people will forget this in a week at most, meanwhile, Unity is more of a business to business transaction, and no business will build their "castle" on sand, so breaking the trust there is a lot more damaging, and probably not going to gain that trust back in some time, or ever for a lot of companies, since they can't know if tomorrow they will make a change that it's going to make them lose money and destroy their business.
The Chanel bottle... AWESOME!
I dread the day they need for you to upload your spray stats.....for your security!
Your logic is irrefutable! I love tis channel!
I have several Phillips WiZ lights and noticed they've changed the terms for these as well. Fortunately, the protocols used by both WiZ and Hue have been reverse engineered and have open source clients available for offline use.
Thanks for sharing this. I’ve been struggling with some I unearthed from storage and couldn’t get them to connect to anything for the life of me.
As someone living in a very rural area with incredibly limited internet access (paying for satellite based in 2023 ffs) it becomes increasingly frustrating to have devices that demand to be online all the time
they don't tend to care about the rural man, no corpo does unfortunately
it shouldn't be required to use internet to use a machine, unless it's a pc
good god am i sorry that you have to use satellite though, i remember how absurdly high you pay to get a small amt of data back in 2014 (and i can't imagine it got better)
@@Spacecoreinspace It's mainly the cost to bandwidth ratio that irks me. Absurd that it costs so much more for an inferior service. Thankfully we've gotten reports that they are adding fiber optic lines to the power lines in our county so relief is in sight.
Apart from my computers, nothing else in my home connects to the internet. If I wish to alter my heating, I go to the control box and reset my preferences. If I can't see to read, I'll walk across the room and switch the light on. These are old methods, but not outdated ones.
I can understand some people wishing to control their heating when away from home, but the lights? To give the impression someone is home? I've had a plug-in light controller for about 20 years, and that has a random setting. That'll do then.
If I had some of those lamps, I'd be walking them back to the store and demanding a full refund, no matter how old they were.
Yes expose them all
👏 👏 👏
Thanks Louis for your coverage & your work in exposing corporate bs like this. It's appreciated.
I don't get why the local Smart-Home should even be connected to the greater World Wide Web to even function.
Certain functionality has Zero Purpose dialing outside of the Self-Contained Local Network.
If the rules are changed afterwards, I can change mine and demand a full refund after years of use...especially in cases like this
I'm sure the companies see it the same way, and if not, I'll say it's for my safety...it'll definitely work...
That's not a change, that's following the original agreement, you never bought this changed product. Therefore you never agreed to pay for it.
Or, you can learn how computers work, and flash the firmware to do what YOU want. Stop waiting for others to solve your problems.
@@snex000Yes! Learn complex systems you have no understanding of! Do this for every single thing that exists in our ever increasingly complex life or else... you deserve it? You're an idiot? Let's hold the companies accountable first, then start to worry about making sure my 55 year old dad understands the intricacies of setting up a home network.
@@snex000 I shouldn't need to acquire skills just to use a product I paid for in it's originally agreed upon way simply because THEY wanted to change the rules
@@phantomstarlight1366 See this is the real problem in the world - the overinflated sense of entitlement. You own the physical object you bought. You do NOT own the right to force others to interact with it how you want. If YOU want to control its software, the yes you DO have to acquire skills. Stop whining that nobody will do it for you for free.
It's the same with Wyze cameras. The entire reason I filled my home with Wyze cameras is for the instant motion alerts with 10 second video file of what the motion was. Now I have to pay for all of that....
It's like a Chinese finger trap. They give it out for free and setting expectations of the great feature...then the ask for a sub.,,what will you do, either you pay for it or you through all your equipment away
It's pretty ass cheeks now. Luckily you can still put SD cards in them
😑 ..hulk smash? 🤷♂️
They want to secure your data. As in getting access to it.
So what is a good alternative to hue? What do I buy when I want to replace hue bulbs, bars and ceiling lights? I'm using time and location based automation. I have 8 hue products which I suddenly want to get rid of.. :)
Thanks for the update! I prefer Phillip’s HUE, because I’ve experienced the best connectivity, what do you recommend?
Companies and products that do this deserve to be Bud Lited. My hobbies were free from these kind of acts but even that appears to be changing where the manufacturers of the arcade devices i enjoy are now offering online accounts on their cloud servers and offering subscription services for online multi player tournaments. Life just seems to get suckier with each year now
The frequency of this happening seems to be increasing greatly in the past year or so. I wouldn't be surprised if some data broker has been pushing hard with incentives for companies to do this.
That "data broker" has an office in the Pentagon.
It is technically illegal for the US government to spy on US citizens on US soil (not that that's stopped them in the past). There is absolutely nothing, however, stopping the US government from buying information gathered by third parties, third parties that in at least some cases were funded by In-Q-Tel.
We used to call America's spy apparatus Alphabet Agencies. Now we just call them Alphabet.
Reminds me as to what recently happened to Unity. (Retroactive change in Terms of Service affecting all previous sold games).
Thanks Louis
Thank You.
depending on your location, there are backdoors in these IoT devices that rely on a mesh network to access your device. These other IoT devices are in your neighbor's houses or cars, and are the attack vectors used to gain access to your IoT devices.
Hello Luis, thanks for the video - quick question: Would you be willing to create and share (potentially even manage) a brand blacklist? With some reasoning behind the a given company being blacklisted and potentially also the severity of their anticonsumer practices?
I realize it would be a hassle but I believe it would be incredibly useful for an average Joe to actually be able to have a reliable source of which brands you should avoid. Maybe it would make some difference.
Have a good one, Ciao
Even if Louis isn't interested, I am, if it doesn't already exist. I'm sure others are too. The Mozilla project that outed car privacy might help.
I'm sort of surprised they didn't throw "for the children" in there along with "security."
You are correct sir. That happened to me with the mentioned product. Still not sure how I’m gonna handle it.
Thanks for the warning
I did not trust Philips after they removed third-party compatibility in a software update (which was ALSO their Hue line). I think they pulled that one about 10 years ago.[1]
Edit: Not working off-line is a hard no for me. I took me years to actually use a D-link "Smart plug" I bought for it's power monitoring ability. Put off reverse-engineering it until I learned that there was a Home Assistant module for it. (And I happened to have a file server I could throw a Home Assistant VM on).
1. December 15, 2015 is when "Philips Hue DRM Update Blocks Third-Party Light Bulbs" was published on TechCrunch.
hue light work with homeassistent as hub/controller to.
Urge to buy Bleu de Chanel rising!
amzn.to/3ER3tuJ
@@rossmanngroup 🤣
Did I miss what this is all about? When I follow the Amazon link, it says it is sold by something called "Xiaochangjiu."
Huh?
My favorite one.
Store in fridge for longer usability (no risk of loosing access because of security reasons)
(I do not use a lot of perfume and had some go bad on me with longer storage, so...)
Fun fact: the 'reclaim personal data' apps - (..the ones that help you take back your data from data brokers..) - also have a clause in their terms that they can change their product, their company name, how they use your data, etc. WITHOUT even notifying you.
So they could become data brokers after hindering other data brokers.
Ooh, I knew something was off considering that one of them resorted to advertising through RUclips sponsor integrations.
@@kbhasi It could be nothing, or 'standard for online services' now.
But:
1. The premise of "We can change what you signed up for without your consent" seems HELLA shady to me.
2... the company in question was based in Israel, famous for ex-military people starting privacy invading projects (like that Pegasus thing that's sold to oppressive regimes to silence opponents, murder journalists, and so on).
Granted: Intel is from there too. And Waze. And those are fine.
3. Nothing is free.
Yet the service was free.
It's possible that they only did that at the very start to gain some momentum and build their name...
But usually 'free' translates to "we'll just take what we want from you. Don't even worry about it...." (i.e. useful personal data gets sold)
It's just the combination of those things... It felt like I was about to reply to that Nigerian prince about those millions of dollars he wanted me to move for him.
🤣🤣 Great job. Great information. Fun to watch was a bonus.
You do nice job informing people about all this. Most of those things I wasn't even aware about.
Good thing this happened just before I retrofitted my house with a bunch of their downlights. I liked their polish and colour accuracy vs more open alternatives, but preferred the local control vs other big names. Now I may have to resort to making my own.
Dude, lemme tell you. Candles and lamps can solve a lot of lighting issues and give you the added benefit of fragrance. More tech more problems. Localized voice activated lights would be cool, but I certainly don’t want anyone to be able to make spreadsheets out of my laundry or microwave habits.
The "we can change these terms at anytime" is and always has been the biggest BS in my opinion.
I'm doing it, I'm making a list of who to not buy products from.
Probably a shorter list of who you can buy from lol
They actually can’t unilaterally apply updates to the ToS: Douglas v. Talk America. The court held that a business must notify users about proposed changes to the TOS *and* obtain their consent.
If the product is non-functional after a ToS update they are liable for damages but nobody is going to spend the time and money required for litigation and there aren’t enough people that both care and are willing to formally decline the ToS to do a class action.
@@DigitalMoonlight Thank you for the knowledge and the source.
@@DigitalMoonlight Correct.
Why people continue to give control of their homes, cars, televisions, etc over to corporations, and also pay these corporations for the privilege, is absolutely beyond my comprehension.
At one point the lightbulb was such a simple and easy-to-use device that there was an entire genre of comedy focused around subject's inability to replace one unaided.
How many IoT subscription services do you need to change a lighbulb?
Dang, this opens a whole new "change a lightbulb" joke subgenre XD
@@mielivalta how many people does it take to change a light bulb? None, you actually need 40 lawyers who will create new ToS and make you buy new ones.
The answer is, we don't know. The terms could change at any time.
How many smart lights does a child need to make his homework? Just one but he has to read in dark since his parents forgot to pay the subscription fee.
I have to 100% agree with you on this subject. These companies that sell products and then switch up the features and functionality after having been given money from the consumers in order to assure that they are able to control them down the road is total BS. I am, like you mentioned today, completely avoiding any appliance, machine or whatever it may be within my home that connects to the web for any reason without myself initiating the connection, period. I do not need my fridge to tell me that we are almost out of milk and I should “order” more or put it on my grocery list. I also have no use for a washing machine to check my email or a stove that can send me text messages. I am sure there are people out there that find those types of things to be benefits, but I am definitely not one of them. Thanks for another great upload today, Louis. I find your content exceptionally relevant and very entertaining, likely due to your direct and in your face NYC methods of delivery. I applaud your efforts and never let them tell you that you have to follow “their” rules to play the game. Who knows, maybe they’ve been playing the game the wrong way for so long they don’t know any better at this point? Cheers from NorCal.
I recently started using a VPN and the cooky consent popups I get, now that sites think I'm somewhere in the EU, have been interesting, both in how much more verbose they are than the US versions and some of the things that get lumped in as "essential" cookies. One (and I'm using that number loosely) of the more galling "essential" uses I've seen is tracking you across devices. NO! One of the main reasons I don't want to accept cookies is so you can't do that sort of obscene tracking and that's definitely not something a news site needs to be able to do.
The problem is that many people will fall in the trap. To connect a light bulb to the internet is out of this world. I'm refusing to buy and/or use all products and services that require to download an app on the phone. People should be scared by installing a random app on the phone but no, many are happy to play with it.
Thank you Louis
Anthony
I'll happily use any products/services that require an app on my phone, so long as the complete source is available, to the point that if I really wanted I could just create my own client and interface with it, or remove the app requirement functionality entirely. Otherwise, hell no, and if they push it on me, I will repeatedly open ticket after ticket requesting the source, and then sue them if they don't comply
Imagine having to agree to a terms of service to light a candle other than lawful possession of matches.
It is both interesting and disheartening that there are this much business BS out there that L.R. has enough material to make nearly daily videos that each alone make me want to scream and run for the hills. Great work Mr. Rossmann I wish we did not need these videos but we desperately do, and more like them from more sources to gain more momentum, a guy can dream right?
Yup^^ I fell for this one, on both Philips and a different off brand bulb, they should be sued.
100% agree
optional account - yes
obligatory account - no
In what world do you need to have an account to work a light?! This is crazy