How To Solve A Floor Height Problem When Tiling
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- When tiling a bathroom or kitchen, you may find that the floor height after installing the new tile is higher than the adjacent hallway, bedroom or other room. The thickness of your subfloor, underlayment, backerboard and tile determine your overall height, and it's not uncommon to have a mismatch between rooms when using modern tile methods. You can vary the plywood thickness, perhaps, but that has limits. I have two tricks I use to help with the doorway threshold transition when I have mismatched heights.
Also referenced in this video:
• Toilet Flange Height A... (Toilet flange height after tiling)
• Subfloors And Underlay... (Subfloors and underlayment) 
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This is the best videos on tile and explaining the layers of floor I have seen! Thank you
Great tips John, you answered a lot of questions.
EXTREMELY helpful and informative video! THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Brilliant, thanks for the education! Keep up the great work
Great explanation and demonstration
I totally agree that the less flex in a wall or floor is the best option. I always tank my wet room floors and walls and my standard shower tray walls as well as above a bath. Easy to do and for £50 it's piece of mind.
Another helpful video. My house was built in 1961 and has the 2 x 6 tongue-in-groove subfloor which is very sturdy. For my bath remodel I went with 5/8" plywood for the underlayment to keep the height difference at a minimum. I don't detect any deflection to speak of. I wish I had seen this video before I put down the 1/4 hardibacker up to the threshold transition, and I would have used your threshold technique. Thanks.
Looks good John.
Great video, brother!
Nice solution!
Hi John. Bathroom is coming along. Here in the UK most jobs are 400 centre joists with the original boards taken up and 18mm ply on top and then tile. Occasionally you get a decoupling membrane on them but not often. Thanks for sharing
It's fascinating to understand the differences among countries. I find that methods persist sometimes long after they have utility, and that some countries tend to adapt practices before others. Even between Canada and the USA there are differences in how things are done. I've been told that in parts of Europe it's common to waterproof the entire bath floor, to the extent that it will actually hold water. In the US, that would be unusual unless you have a very high-end walk out shower arrangement, which are not common. Whatever the local practices, it's fair to say that stiffer and stronger are always important goals for supporting tile.
Oh my gosh!!!! God is on my side today (well, everyday, but what a blessing today!) Absolutely everything you answered in this video came straight from questions in my head. I've spent hours down the u-tubes rabbit-hole trying to figure out how to 1-layer the subfloor 2) figure out the height 3) whether or not to do the subfloor layers under the bathtub, 4)etc, and you answered everything. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video thank you
Thanks for this video John, a lot of really great information. I have a question on how you affixed the marble threshold to the plywood - did you use thin-set or did you use an adhesive?
I use modified thinset. Just take care to get full and complete coverage, to the point where you have excess squeezing out. If there is carpet in the hallway you can cover it with tape and/or plastic. Also, you might consider using one of the composite thresholds rather than real marble if you are concerned about durability.
Good tips
This is a great video. Are there more options for the transition that match closer with the tile you install?
Thanks
You can get marble and composite thresholds in various colors, but not necessarily to match the tile exactly. Same goes for corner shelves in showers. You can take the tile right to the edge if you want, and then you'd need to use a metal or wood transition strip.
Do you have a video that shows a solution for tile to tile uneven transition similar to this video? That is my situation and I'm stuck for completing tiling my dining area that connects to my tiled kitchen floor
Well, your options are similar. You could install a marble transition and use that to make up the difference. If you can use a wood transition then you can make a custom piece which spans the difference. A local woodworker could help if you don't have that skill. There are metal transition strips, but they don't look very nice.
@@enduringcharm Thank you. I will look into the marble transition to start.
Good pointers. My only concern about the marble, is how thin it needs to be at the carpet and should it ever chip due to stepping on it or if anything hits it, especially since it overhangs the carpet a bit.
I'm about to remodel my 1/2 bath and will need to transition to a hardwood floor. Since the floor will be raised about 1/2" to add a backer board that does not exist under the old floor, I'll need a angled transition like you showed. I don't like the look of the existing marble threshold, so I'm going with a custom cut piece of red oak I can stain to match the hardwood flooring if the new tile height does not match up to the hardwood. If it does come out close to the proper height by some lucky coincidence (say within 1/8-1/4"), I'm going with a bullnose piece of tile matching the tile floor.
I frequently use a custom wood transition when it will look appropriate. Wood is flexible, easily machinable to the ideal shape, and stainable. However, it doesn't look appropriate in all settings. I should also mention that the "marble" transitions are not always actual marble. There are a number of man-made composites available which look like marble but which will be much less likely to crack or chip.
Thank you so much for this video. I have contractors who created a major problem with the transition area from a tiled bathroom to a laminate wood bedroom by incorrectly placing a new door jam and cutting the existing laminate floor to fit the door jam to correct for their error. They not only placed the door jam at an angle but cut the irreplaceable flooring to hide their error. A marble threshold was suggested but even if they realign the door jam correctly, that exposes more of the flooring that they cut away at an angle. I would like to know where you purchased the beautiful marble threshold and how they can correct the exposed flooring that they cut away. I am in Hawaii and materials are not easy to come by. I welcome your suggestions.
Well, there are often regional differences in available materials and I'm sure being on on Hawaii only compounds that issue. I'm afraid it's difficult for me to suggest a solution without seeing the problem in person. Marble thresholds or composite thresholds which look like marble are commonly sold in my area in the box stores and tile supply retailers. I just checked the Honolulu Home Depot and they have them in stock. However, that is typically installed during the tile process, not afterward. Whether it can be done now will depend on the details of the installation.
The other option is a wood threshold transition. A good carpenter can make a custom threshold from locally available wood in any needed size or shape. When I'm faced with an unusual transition problem between rooms a custom wood threshold is often the best answer.
@@enduringcharm Thank you for your recommendations. May I send pictures if you think may be of help?
There is no way to send pictures here, but if you look up my website at the end of the video you can contact me through there.
What size spacer are you using at the bottom of the last tile?
The bottom? Did you mean to comment on one of the shower videos? Whatever grout line width you choose is typically maintained throughout a tile installation, including corners, the bottom row of tile, the last row before a door threshhold, etc. The only time that doesn't work is when you have an extreme grout line size--very thin or very wide. For example you wouldn't use a 1/16" gap between a tub and a first row of wall tile because it would be too little to absorb movement even caulked. Similarly, a large 3/8 gap would be too much between a tub edge and a first row of floor tile. You would choose a narrower gap there to be caulked.
I’ve got a 70s house. It’s got 1/2” subfloor, and 1/2” plywood underpayment, then peel and stick laminate tile stuck directly to the underpayment. It’s perfectly level with my hardwood floors in the hallway. Could I use 1/4” cement board as underlayment? That’s the only thing I can think of to keep the floors level.
Are you trying to install ceramic or porcelain tile? If so, you simply must prepare a base which is not going to deflect or flex, or else you'll have problems like loose tiles or cracked grout. In your situation you can remove the first layer of 1/2" plywood and the finish flooring. Leave the subfloor, which you believe to be 1/2" plywood. You might double-check that and make certain it isn't 5/8", which would be more typical. To build back up, the minimum would be a layer of 5/8" plywood on top of the subfloor, then 1/4" hardibacker, then the tile. Even then you should use a smaller format tile, which will provide more grout lines and therefore tolerate more flex. This will leave you in the neighborhood of 5/8-3/4" higher than the hallway. You can use the tricks shown in the video to make up this difference, knowing that you'll need a threshold with a long taper and you'll need to cut the door shorter.
@@enduringcharm I’d like to install 12x24” porcelain tile. According to the blueprints of the house, it’s 1/2” plywood on top of 2x8 joists.
I’m thinking I’m going to use a toe kick saw and cut out the entire current subfloor up to the walls, then install 3/4” T&G plywood, then use a 1/4” hardibacker, then tile. I know it’s not ideal, but I really am trying to avoid the larger transition/threshold. Do you think this would suffice or no?
No, that would not suffice. You should leave the current subfloor, whether it is 1/2" or 5/8," because when you cut it out you lose some of the structural rigidity. I only go down to the joists when I have no choice due to rot or other damage. The walls are built on top of that subfloor plywood and by cutting it out you now separate the weight of those walls from the rest of the floor platform, allowing independent movement.
Beyond that, you still need a second layer of plywood, a minimum 5/8" and 3/4" would be preferable. Then your 1/4" backerboard (or something like Schluter Ditra) goes down and then your tile. Backerboard provides no structural help, it is only there to adhere the tile to the floor system. The second layer of plywood is what will give you structural rigidity enough to use tile. As I said earlier, you should avoid a large format tile. A 12x24 tile is large format and if conditions are not perfect you will get cracking or loose tile. A 12x12 would be the largest I would recommend with 2x8 joists and a thin floor system, and smaller would be better. I have seen many homeowner jobs where this advice was ignored, and the result is a disaster of cracked and loose tiles. Then people live with that mess for years because they spent so much time and money they can't justify tearing it all up and doing it right.
Could you tell me which spacers you use please?
This bath had 12x24 inch tile and the grout lines are 1/8 inch. In the old days we had rubber spacers with four legs to them, but they tended to be mixed quality and irregular dimensions. The newer hard plastic style spacers you see here are widely available in the US box stores. They are very uniform and are two sided, one with two supports the other with four supports. You can use the four support side when tiles are laid on top of each other so that four corners intersect. Even better, these spacers are easily re-used and the ones you see here have probably been through a dozen or more bath remodels.
Does the threshold stick out when the door is closed?
You can vary the width of the threshold either by cutting it or buying a narrower one. They come in widths of 6, 5.5, 4, 3 and 2 inches and maybe more. You may see the edge of the threshhold with the door closed, but if you would rather you can use a narrower width or install the threshold slight more inside the room.
How did you adhere the marble to the wood subfloor?
You can use the same modified thinset for that purpose. Just make certain the plywood is well-fastened, does not have flex, and that you get full coverage under the threshold. If you are concerned that the situation is marginal, you can choose a composite threshold rather than real marble. It looks almost identical.
Great video. I'm so glad for your RUclips contributions.
Question I'd be grateful for you to answer:
I'm trying to plan on how to prepare for tiling. I have an old house with planks for the subfloor set on joists that are 24 inches apart.
Could I get by with laying down 7/8ths exterior plywood over the planks, then using Ditra, then tiling?
What would you do?
Part of the issue for me is I have floor height differentials to be concerned about that are making me want to go as low as I can get away with for laying tile in terms of thickness of the subfloor and underlayment.
I should've noted how the old subfloor planks are 3/4" thick, with some gaps between some of them.
Perhaps I have to cut them out altogether. It's just that I then have to worry a bit about chain of reaction in terms of floor structural integrity to other areas of the house that I'm not planning on cutting up the planks and replacing with a new subfloor.
There are several factors involved with how much flex you'll find in a floor. One factor is the subfloor and underlayment, but equally important are things like joist spacing, joist length and joist sizing. Loads on the floor are yet another factor. So, if your joists are far apart, or undersized for the length they span, you'll get more flex regardless of what you have for the subfloor or underlayment. That's something you'll need to look at, and depending on the location of the bath you may be able to sister up new joists or install a beam underneath the joists to split the span in half.
As for your subfloor, some planks can be very strong when installed diagonally with tongue and groove design. Other plank subfloors are not tongue and groove and may be warped or cupped from moisture and age. So, you need to assess the condition of the boards. It is possible to pull up the entire subfloor and replace it with 3/4" plywood if necessary. As for the underpayment, I would maximize the thickness based on your description--3/4" plywood if you have the available height. The Ditra idea is probably not worth the effort. As long as you can get a solid layer of plywood screwed down and the joists are not terribly undersized you can just use 1/4" hardibacker under the tile.
Generally speaking, if I find the planks are flat and well fastened to the joists I'll leave them alone. If they are severely cupped or cracked and loose, then I'll consider replacing them with plywood.
Question/curious. Why did you lay the tile in that direction vs the other direction (long side towards the tub)?
There's no structural reason, it's a matter of esthetics. When you have a long rectangular tile (as opposed to a square) the long edge typically goes in the direction of how you walk into the room as well as parallel with the tub. It just tends to look best that way. There are room configurations in which it's a toss up, though.
@@enduringcharm Thanks for the feedback.
Thanks for sharing. Can I just ask, if I needed to bring my wood floor up as the tiling finished 2 inches above the current wood floor boards (don't ask me what happened), how much lower than the finish of the tile would the wood floor need to be brought up to create a good transition please?
Let's back this train up. Do I understand you correctly that you have a new tile installation in one room which is a full two inches higher than an adjoining room? That isn't a transition, that's a step! There is no way to make up that difference in any form without tearing everything up and starting over. I'm not sure what advice to give you, other than marking the step up for safety and perhaps installing a wood filler with a slope or a roundover.
@@enduringcharm Exactly! problem was a wall was removed which revealed a discrepancy, which then grew once the tiling was finished. The current plan is to ply board the wood floor to bring it up to level.
@@enduringcharm is it safe to say the carpet and underlay will account for 20mm, so that nearly 1 inch accounted for right?
Well, if you raise the floor in the adjoining room or hallway, then you just transfer the problem to the next adjoining room, right? And the height problem is especially concerning where there are stairs or exterior doors, since stair riser heights must be equal and since exterior doors often cannot be cut down. To address this problem what should have been done is to reframe the floor which is too high and bring it down to the level of the rest of the house. You are now proposing bringing other parts of the house up to match the mistake, but two wrongs don't make a right. You'll just compound the issue. Based on your description I think your only two choices are to either live with it and turn it into a step or start over with the floor that is too high and reframe it.
@@enduringcharm well basically the house is split into 2 halves as it mostly open plan. We have the kitchen and hallway tiled on 1 side (stairs off the hall way, and then on the other side is where I wish to carpet, the open living dining room (hopefully that makes sense). So we can bring that side of the house up. I'm probably going to ply board it, but i'm not too sure, how much lower than the tile finish, should my ply board be? I think carpet and underlay thickness combined will be about 20mm. Should i finish the ply 20mm below or maybe 15mm would be better to account for compression over time? Appreciate your input
Can this work for a 1" transition height?
Well, that's a pretty big difference! Maybe if you describe your situation more detail I could offer a solution...
Excellent video. Only comment I would make is that I thought the threshold should be slightly above the bathroom floor incase there is some type of water on the floor. The raised threshold will prevent it from spilling into the next room.
If you want to go that route, remember that could also have to waterproof the perimeter of the bath along the walls, so that water doesn't enter the wall or floor system cavities. I'm told this is common practice in other countries, but it isn't in the US.
You may have just solved our tile to LVP transition issue from the bathroom to the bedroom. We could ask a countertop marble/quartz/granite cutter near us to create a floor transition from their scraps. We would prefer to have the flat part only about an inch long so that most of the transition is a slope to make it easier on wheels or for aging parents with balance and upstep/downstep issues. Do you have a solution to transitioning shower floor tile to waterproof solid core LVP? This is an interesting hurdle.
If you search around at local tile retailers you may find the profile you are looking for in stock. There are some marble transitions which are almost entirely sloped. Another option is to do a wood transition, which can be shaped any way you wish. Vinyl flooring needs room to expand and contract with temperature, so you you don't want to pin or trap that in place. Better to overlap with the transition onto the vinyl to allow movement.
I'm confused. You used 1/4 backer board so that by the time you install the tile it is even with your marble transition. What has me confused is you need to use quick set underneath that backer board because the plywood underneath is going to expand and contract and is a standard install method with backer board. Then you are going to be using your quick set for installing the tile. That is going to add a 1/2 inch in height to the plywood you were starting with. So how is your 1/4 inch (6mm) marble transition you are using going to work. Your tile is going to be 1/4 inch taller than your transition. So how did you compensate for the 1/4 in lip? There is a high probability that the tile will crack if you skipped using quickset under that backerboard, so how did you address that?
You're making some assumption which aren't the case. It's true some manufacturers call for installing backerboard on the floor with thinset. That wouldn't add all that much height, maybe 1/8th inch if you chose to do it. However, I don't use thinset under 1/4 inch backerboard. Instead, I make sure the plywood is flat before I get to the backerboard and I just use screws. The screws allow some minor decoupling from the plywood, which thinset underneath would not. I have installations 25 years old using this method, and I have done 65 or 70 bathrooms and I don't know how many kitchens this way. There's no reason for tile to crack unless you leave gaps under the backerboard. Now, if you installed backer over a wavy underlayment, that would be a problem. If needed, I will use self-leveling compound under the plywood to get things flat, and then the plywood layer is not going to present a problem.
The marble transition is also not 1/4" thick, I'm not sure why you assumed that. They are available in 5/8" or 3/4" thickness, typically, and you can pick the one which works best with your circumstances. If you get into a tricky situation there are options for raising or lowering the threshold as needed. You can install differing thicknesses of backer or plywood under just the threshold, or you can use varying thicknesses of thinset within reason. If you watched to the end of the video you'll see that the threshold was level with the bath tile.
@@enduringcharm Thank you for your reply! I wasn't sure on how thick the transition was, it was more of a guess so thank you for the correction. I'm by no means anywhere as experienced as you and I really do value your information in the video. I've been under the impression that certified tiling recommended practice is to put quick set under the backer board. I was just trying just understand the method. I'm dealing with a bit of a nightmare kitchen floor that I am transitioning from Vinyl plank to Tile for the galley section of the kitchen. When I started the project I removed the original floor and I found what looked like cement backer board that had sel leveling already applied. It was anything but level. over a 12 foot distance the floor had a slope of 3 inches and there was dips and valleys all thought it. I thought my option was to not fix the leveling and make the floor flat. Leveling that much would requiring pulling the subfloor for the entire kitchen. The self lever started to crack a day after I poured it. I started to remove the newly poured underlayment only to find that the cement backer board was actually quickset that was poorly applied to and to what reason I haven't quite figured out. Now that I have removed it and am looking at a 1 inch difference from the subfloor to the vinyl plank. I am now installing 1/2 inch backer board and I plan to use quickset underneath it and screw it down. After that, it's standard morter and tiling and all said and done I will be very close to matching the existing floor. My worry is that i will only be able to get so close to the vinyl plank with the cement board and I will need a corner transition basically in the middle of the room. Getting both floor types as close to even without too much of a lip has me wondering if I will need to plan for some type of transition strip or caulking. I'm just a simple DIYer but I'm very astute in learning what practices are recommended. Any advise would be welcome, and thank you for taking the time to even answer my question.
I think you may be focused on the wrong things. There are two important things in tiling prep, one is flatness--which is not to be confused with being level. You can have flat without having level. The second thing is stiffness or strength of the floor assembly. If the floor assembly has too much flex, the tile can crack or come loose. Since you have a 1 inch difference between two sections or areas, you should be using plywood to make up the difference. Ideally I will use 3/4 plywood as the underlayment before my backerboard, or 5/8 plywood if I don't have enough height. The backerboard is not for strength or for flatness, it's for creating adhesion. The backerboard is mechanically attached to the plywood and the tile/thinset bonds better with the backerboard than with plywood. Some use the plywood and levelers or other methods to create a strong, flat surface. Use the backerboard to help the tile adhere to that surface. And, consider using Schluter Ditra instead of backerboard if you think movement will be a problem. Here is some more information: ruclips.net/video/rmrLxfaGXyQ/видео.html
Why should there be two layers of plywood? I feel like I just see one in most of my jobs. Or is that just for older homes?
Of course there are many different styles of framing and there are different concerns within those styles. A floor system might be made of timbers spaced three feet apart, or 2x8 joists spaced sixteen inches apart, or engineered trusses spaced 24 inches apart. There are many more variations. So, we are speaking in generalities. That said, it's important to have a stiff, flat and solid base on which to install finish flooring, especially when tile is involved. You will find homes built in the mid to late 1900s with only a single layer of plywood or a single layer of diagonal planks. But, experience shows us that we can do better than that. With two layers of plywood and a thicker base on which to install the finish flooring we can avoid cracked or loose tile, nail pops and squeaks from wood flooring, and hollow areas underneath floating floors.
@@enduringcharm Thank you for the reply! Trying to learn as much as I can
I thought Joe Pesci was explaining to me 🤣 You sound just like him!
Thank you for the explanation. Would it work if instead of carpet I have a 3/4” hardwood floors?
Thanks
Most houses are 3/4 subfloor and then 1/4 or 3/16 underlayment, typically horseshit luan. I’ve never seen a house with 1.5” worth of plywood under any floor in any room.
Well, I don't know in what area you reside, but there are differences both regionally and by what building code was in effect at the time of the construction. There is also more than one way to meet the code in effect, such as adding framing below or using certain types of finish flooring such as 3/4" wood. Another difference is whether the subfloor is tongue and groove or not. Currently in my area the standard subfloor thicknesses vary from 3/4 to 1 1/8" in tongue and groove format, and the thickness used would depend on the framing. The choice of underlayment would depend on the finish flooring.
Since I work on a wide range of homes, I encounter everything from no subfloor at all (finish boards applied over timbers), to diagonal boards, to various thicknesses of plywood. When it comes to tiling, though, the amount of deflection and the flatness of the floor are critical. I've seen (and torn up) countless tiles installations which failed due to inadequate subfloor/underlayment thickness. So when I install tile in a bath or kitchen, I aim for the thickest combination of plywood I can make work or I beef up the framing. If the subfloor is 3/4 plywood on 16 inch centers, and the joists are well sized, I'll go as little as 1/2 inch plywood underlayment plus the backerboard. However, I'll aim for a second layer of 3/4 if the floor height will allow.