Artificer Subclasses ranked: D&D
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
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Dungeon Dudes subclass ranks:
• Subclass Rankings for ...
If you would like to know how I calculate damage or how baseline damage is determined, I go through it in this video:
• How To Calculate Avera...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:09 Ranking system
8:59 The Artificer Class
11:16 The Alchemist
13:31 The Armorer
15:51 The Artillerist
17:27 The Battle Smith
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Do you want to be a Paladin, Hexblade, or Beastmaster?
Battlesmith: Yes
you can also take the job of the wizard and the rogue in a pinch
Honestly that's why I'm into it. I think pet classes are cool and like having both martial and spellcasting ability so having a different spin on it feels nice.
If you started with 2 levels into pally and the rest 18 in Battle Smith artificer you would be so much better then the level 20 battle smith.
@@blairbrook1336 oh yeah, going from being INT SAD to needing STR and CHA, the classic Artificer dump stats at 13 is a *great* idea. oh and you miss out on the amazing artificer capstone
Great ranking system. I'm glad when S means "this is OP" rather than "this is really, REALLY good". Also glad to see an F tier too, cuz there are definitely subclasses that deserve it.
Calling it now: the rest of the F tier are monks.
@@timeforsuchaword honestly, if you fix the base class, a lot of monk subclasses are fine when compared to subclasses of other classes. Way of Mercy, Way of the Long Death, and Way of the Kensei come to mind. Things like Sun Soul and Four Elements are total trash though.
S tier is supposed to be superlative. It should be by far the least populated category no matter what things you're ranking.
@@dylandugan76 I thought it was for sassypants. Good to know :)
I'm calling Battlerager as F tier
I'll go to bat for the Artillerist: I think you're way underselling the Protector Cannon. It automatically wins 99% of combats through all of tier 1-2 when the party sticks close to it and costs basically nothing. The Artillerist could be called a "Siege Mage", because the +1d8 damage on all spells, 1-hr-long cannons, and having medium armor+shields(both at +1 or higher)+Shield spell+Absorb Elements+Cure Wounds means they can outlast almost any other class when it comes to surviving multiple encounters and full-clearing dungeons at full/near-full strength. I would never rank them as low as D, and maybe a C in a campaign where there was only ever 1 encounter per day, but I would give them at least a B.
Agreed with this. Arti is S tier in the 3-7 lvl range and then kinda falls off, but stays pretty good(at least relative to noncasters), just a little less good than the Smith.
You have to remember, we are allowing multiclassing here, so other casters can be assumed to pick up shields and armor as well. In fact anyone who isn't a monk can be assumed to find room for 1 level cleric, fighter, hexblade, or artificer for shield and armor.
You do get a lot of nice protection spells, but you don't get to do a lot proactively, +1d8 damage on your spells won't bring you very far when you don't have a lot of spell slots, which you don't.
I don't really see how they are especially good at full clearing a dungeon, assuming the dungeon has actual dangerous encounters in it. How many tough encounters are in a dungeon? 4? at level 5 you get 2 webs. Compare this to the wizard that gets 3 webs, 2 hypnotic patterns, and an additional hypnotic pattern back on a short rest. At level 9 you get a good chunk more spell slots, but I wouldn't count on web to win encounters for you anymore. Wizards can protect the party through many more encounters by walling off enemies or making them scatter in fear, and yes you get your protector cannon instead of those spells, but those spells the wizard slings usually prevents a ton more damage.
I feel like the ranger is actually better at dungeon clearing, good berry heals more than cure wounds, can be cast the day before you enter the dungeon, so you might get some 40 extra hit points in your back pocket just from that. The ranger can easily out damage the artillerist over an extended trip to a dungeon. Dead enemies don't damage the party.
When I look over the artillerist I keep thinking, "What will I do with my action?" cantrips are weak even with +1d8 damage, spells are going to run out real fast, and we need some of them for shield and absorb elements. I get a really good bonus action, but a really weak action. D tier seems very fair to me.
By the way, this is not me saying you shouldn't play artillerist, I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like a lot of fun. Just not a lot of power from what I can see.
Treantmonk in my opinion tends to undervalue THP abilities. Not sure why.
@@peterrasmussen4428 Peter I have to agree. I don't see how arti is S tier at any level. As you point out, they have some steep limitations.
@@goblinking1349 are you sure? He says Twilight cleric, for example, is broken - in part because of its amazing thp thing. I think he said in this vid that the thp spam off the cannon is good - iirc on other art vids he' made, he said he'd mainly use an art to span thps. In other vids, he gets excited about thp-granting features - I have never had the sense that he undervalues them.
But there are other ways to get thps. Other chars in party might grant them. I think he's pretty much on the money on this. The guy has played this game for many years - and probably more games than you, me and a lot of other players put toether!
I think Tree was a little hard on the Armorer. First the guardian. It doesn't get Shield spell and should have. However, it does get a shield (if you choose), heavy armor, and defensive field. Your AC should nearly always be a little higher than a Fighter tank's AC perhaps even if the fighter takes defensive fighting style. Defensive field effectively keeps you on par with fighters in HP. Fighter has more ASI's and so will probably take the tough feat. The Armorer can too but might not have enough ASI's. But they do get their spells so they get other options. Armorer also gains infusions that can be used to empower the plate and shield you'll be wearing and at earlier levels than most fighter's will be receiving those magic items. Not to mention two bonus infusions at level 9 to make sure you can also have accessories like winged boots. Infiltrator: yes even with sharpshooter it will likely do less damage than most dedicated archers. This is purposeful because of the infusions, spells, and extra attunement options that the Artificer receives. The right selection of infusion items, found magic items a DM might provide as loot, and spell use can make up the difference in damage between a infiltrator Artificer and a Ranger. Maybe a D instead of an E.
To me it felt like Chris looked at the damage and gave it a D instead of really looking at the options and how Armorer Artificer can have one of the highest Static AC’s in the game at a very early level. Also the BA Temp HP may not be a lot but it does certainly bump it up to a level equivalent in HP to the other d10 Hit Die types. They get 1 extra HP per level on average. By 3rd level you get 6 extra HP per day in Temp HP. Furthermore your attacks aren’t limited to just one target, you can potentially limit multiple targets from attacking your Wizard that is concentrating.
This has always been one of my biggest issues with the way Chris talks about abilities at a table, he always defines them for a single player game and doesn’t look at value being added to the whole table. Hitting two targets is like giving my whole party a one round no concentration blur effect except for me. That is quite powerful and can prevent my squishy Wizard from being hit. I can even cast Sanctuary on myself so then you have to get through my Saving throw just to want to hit me as a BA at the end of my turn.
The defense of the Guardian is heavily being underestimated here IMO.
@@keeganmbg6999 I share your opinion, the armorer Artificier is not about damage, his low damage capability is actually natural it is not what the subclass is about. The Armorer Artificier is a tank with good support abilities. For my it is at least a C for the combos that you can have with your gauntlets, winged boots and mobile feat and as you mentioned santuary + your enormous AC. All this while being a team player full filling multiple holes that you party may have.
@@johannortega101 100%.
The Armorer is the best Artificer sub-class and yet it is ranked below Artillerist and Battlesmith here. Mistakes were made. For an intro which touted considering things like buff/debuff and benefit to party, all of that looks like it got tossed out the window when looking at the Armorer.
@@keeganmbg6999 I have found that same issue with these videos. Even though he states he is looking at this as you are part of a group, he isn't saying anything about it all that much. The latter videos go more in depth about all the features, but for this particular video he...doesn't go all that into the features of the base class, let alone the sub class features. I found a similar thought when it came to Barbarian, rage is bloody fantastic and at most gets like...a C rank?
looking forward to all the diffrent subclasses ranked : )
"the class it's attached to"
"I have my biases"
RIP monks
I can already see them :< thou. Truthfully we know why.
level 1 monks are just sad, i played one with the new fighting initiate feat to get the d8s and it's still under a level 1 fighter with dual wielder(more hp, more ac, and secound wind), but i still didn't got to play level 2 where the 3d8 + 9 from flurry of blows would be similiar to having two actions surges.
Yeah, that only lasts for 4 levels because at level 6 and above they get outclasses
Interesting take on the artillerist. Back in your artillerist build video, you actually got very good damage out of the subclass, in most levels way over the base line (warlock with eldritch blast and hex). That was without multiclassing too. I'm a bit disappointed then that it is only a D in that case. I would also rate the infuse item much higher in low level play. +1 weapon or armour at level 2 is very strong when you can decide you want it.
Agreed. There are some approaches out there relying on boomingblade crusher/ pam/warcaster that do fantastic damage even though they technically only have a single attack for their action but leverage a second boomingblade on a very likely reaction attack(pam/warcaster combo). Coupled with choice of bonus action canons a surprisingly strong build and not really any step down in damage vs multiple attack option imo. The resulting nominal DPR typically exceeding baseline DPR by at least 2x.
Beating the baseline doesn't mean you do good damage, it means you pass the lowest possible bar for viability.
Afaik boomingblade does not work with crusher because the extra damage is dependent on the creature moving WILLINGLY.
@@jacob5700 The point is that they’re pushed 5ft away from you, so they can either choose to not engage with anyone (big win) or take the booming blade damage. If you didn’t have crusher they’d already be in melee with you and so won’t ever take that secondary damage and get to melee you
@@oliverneville5012 exactly. The build also relies/assumes they decide to close on you allowing a reaction attack of opportunity via PAM and that AoO allows booming blade via warcaster for a second bite on the apple. Having only one attack action attack makes use of find familiar help action a near constant source of attack at advantage (on the attack action attack) where as multiple attack classes would only have that advantage for one of their attacks.
My issue with artificers is that the subclass option is so defining for the character that should've been given at 1st level. Also, the nerf to crafting at low levels hinders heavily on the concept. The fix to the alchemist? Let me craft potions and alchemist fire for cheap, so I can use the stuff I crafted in combat. Right now I only use them as dips, crazy good dips for wizards.
yeah, or splitting the ability into like, support potions and combat potions so there are some expanded options in and out of combat
Yes, the Alchemist seems like a missed opportunity for 5e to finally address a workable system for simplified crafting, component collection and management.
@@pranakhan I actually don't want a official crafting system because I don't think it works well at most tables. It takes a good DM to pull of crafting in a way that's not a bore for everyone else at the table and easy access to items is easily abusable.
Not to say I don't allow or like crafting, just to say that I don't want official mechanics for it.
But I do think Alchemist becomes viable in a game with crafting. You can shore up its main weaknesses with just a few uncommon items or a sack of potions.
Look up Kibblestasty Artificer. It is a rigorously playtested homebrew variant for the class that solves a lot of the problems you mention.
Yeah I agree, and I honestly think the Alchemist would have worked better on another Class, it works poorly with the other subclasses both thematically and mechanically.
Armorer: I build walking tanks.
Artillerist: I build walking artillery.
Battlesmith: I built a walking tank and we fight side by side.
Alchemist: You guys build robots and stuff? I make potions.
The other three subclasses fit thematically well together and they all seem like the kind of character that can craft superior weaponry and armour, and they all build some form of moving mechanical creature that will greatly aid them in battle. They feel like the same class and they feel like they fit that half caster half martial style that works so well for Paladins.
Then you have the alchemist which gets spells. But only at half the pace other casters do because... well they get 2 Cantrips plus medium armour and shields... that totally makes up for being a halfcaster, right?
The only thing the Alchemist has going for it is the infusions... and that doesn't fit the potion maker theme at all. It fits the other Artificer subclasses.
Hey Chris, I'm playing an Alchemist in a campaign currently. One thing the Elixirs have going for them is that they make my spell prep easier. Being only able to prep 6 optional spells (INT 17 @ level 6), having the Elixirs means I don't need to prep Cure Wounds as I already have healing word automatically prepared. Thankfully we have fairly distinct party roles, so I can reliably prep before an encounter.
I seldom use them during combat, so I don't mind the economy of using two actions. Agree they are lack luster, but as someone supporting new players in a campaign, it's been a great class to provide support without hogging the limelight.
I'm playing one too. Reading it on paper I thought it would be very ineffective.
I have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised how effective I've been. A few non-optimizers at my table even think Alchemist is OP after seeing me play it (this is not true, but it's flattering).
After 6, which is when the class struggles, my go-to strategy was to use Pipes of Haunting (Infusion) and Web. That gave me two big AoE control abilities, one of which isn't friendly fire, has no concentration, and doesn't eat spell slots.
I also shored up my combat weaknesses by just looking for a few uncommon items that gave me good actions or bonus actions and didn't tax my spell slots (e.g., Wand of Missiles and Bag of Tricks). Obviously we don't theorycraft around items but if your DM is going to let you craft or shop for uncommon items, this class performs sooooo much better, because now you're not starving for spell slots or limited to a couple cantrips. I think these items are common enough in all the tables I play at.
Finally, elixirs have definitely not been effective in combat. At least not until we stopped playing it RAW (DM gave me an item that lets pets provision elixirs at level 12). But I've gotten a ton of use for them out-of-combat.
I've found two elixirs very effective for our group.
The Swiftness is neat. It only increases walk speed BUT Boots of Flying (Infusion) make your walk speed your fly speed and Alter Self (Spell/elixir) make your walk speed your swim speed. So you can boost your walk speed with longstrider/elixir/haste, then make that your swim or fly speed. I stack longstrider and swiftness a lot. Yes they add up to only +20' but when you put it on a rogue or stack it with haste, it really starts to mean +60' or +120' movement. Our DM has also thrown a lot of unwinnable combats and chase sequences at us, so being able to swim/fly/run away fast has saved far more lives than healing word.
Transformation is also super versatile and covers several spells. We often use it to ambush people disguised as other people. This was great for causing inter-faction divides between groups of enemies. It's great for this as it's non-concentration so you aren't hampered while fighting. But it's also good for a swim speed or underwater breathing or to just give a druid's summons magic weapons. Of course, usually when I use it, I give it to all 6 party members. So yea... bye-bye spell slots.
Don't get me wrong though, I still agree with the majority of Treantmonk's analysis. There is some huge challenges with playing this class and some bad design. But I agree with Dungeon Dudes that, for a smart/creative player, it's more effective than it would appear on paper (which is more than I can say for the Way of Four Elements Monk).
Why wouldn't elixirs be subject to the action economy rules of drinking a potion on DMG page 139 where its an section to administer or drink either? There's potions called elixirs in dnd. Every magic potion besides the health potion doesn't mention the action economy of drinking it in their descriptions, and if they do, don't mention restrictions on it. Even the experimental elixir description doesn't say you CAN'T administer it to a creature that's not incapacitated. I feel like a lot of the hate on the alchemist is due to the idea that there's some sort of special restriction on the action economy of elixirs that other potions don't have that frankly are unfounded within the game
Yeah I think the problem is that people don't see the elixirs for what they really are, 6 extra first level spells known. That are automatically put in what is essentially a minor spell-storing item. Yes, producing them in combat isn't great due to action economy. But unless you're constantly being ambushed, you'll have a fair amount of encounters (combat and non combat) you can prep for.
It's a brave person who ranks the Armorer so low, I'm impressed!
I very much disagree, but I am impressed. I could see arguments for it to be ranked as middle of the road at worst, but it's a Swiss army knife paired with an incredible AC, and the ability to actually function as an agro tank.
Always enjoy your stuff, I just think that this was a misstep of a choice.
I almost think infiltrator and guardian should be considered separately since they work so differently as builds.
@@ATMOSK1234 Honestly you're so right. You really do need to structure the attributes and everything differently to make them each as effective.
@@ATMOSK1234 I'm definitely a guardian guy all the way though xD
@@desislavvelchev8728 Yes, you could get a better AC from multiclassing, but you could also get a great AC already without multiclassing. I like this subclass because of the way it functions as a solo class. Adding on item infusions makes it a variable build that can function well in many different environments.
I don't want to start a long running argument with anyone, so I hope we can just state these initial thoughts without much else. Thank you for your input, hopefully next time you won't need to call someone else's idea dumb.
What's the top end AC of an armor without multiclassing? I'd expect atleast 21 since they have heavy armor proficiency and infusions to increase AC.
I love the alchemist, but I've mostly ever used it at a DMPC (which 90% of the time was more like a shared 2nd character for the party, as I let the players mostly vote on decisions he made)
I think more so then any other class, the progression of the artificer is tied to getting access to magic weapons. Their level 10 ability even directly enhances their ability to craft such items. Obviously, how your DM handles magic items will very wildly from table to table, but I think its something to keep in mind when we consider the weakness of artificers in comparison to some other classes.
I mean, a smart DM when there's an artificer at the table might just hand out fewer magic items so that the artificer will feel good about their class choice. Doesn't mean the Artificer is getting the party ahead, though--the same DM when there's no artificer present can be more generous.
For sure. Any Artificer can be pointless in a high magic campaign or the crux of the entire party in a low magic campaign. But if anyone can make a complete comprehensive analysis of every subclass, it's probably going to be Chris. I'm trying to reserve judgement until the chart is full.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath if I'm not mistaken the dmg requires a schematic in order to make magic items. A DM might choose to give out schematics for the items they want the party to have instead of giving the item outright. But I was just commenting on how the damage progression is lackluster compared to a paladin (most directly comparable class).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I don't really see that that matters, though. It's just like a DM making healing potions more available for purchase if a party doesn't have a cleric (or similar healing subclass).
@@dylandugan76 In a high magic setting a late game an artificer is godlike because it can get 6 attunements. Even early game you can utilize non-attunement magic items for your infusions to plug any weaknesses. If you end up with 6 attunement magic items and 6 (or 8 with armorer) infusions you are basically unkillable. A high magic setting would also imply that the DM will allow you craft powerful magic items so you can choose which items you want to make.
I can’t help but feel that the artificer is undervalued here. An artificer brings almost as much utility to a party as a bard. RPGBOT does a really good job of explaining how effective an artificer can really be in an adventuring group. I respect your opinion, but I just have to disagree with you here. Love your content though!
I'm totally with you on this one even dungeon dudes made some great points about all of those subclasses that were incredibly valid. I've had an alchemist, and a unearthed arcana thunder cannon who later rerolled an artillerist. My group has six players in it so I have a pretty decent test pool when it comes to looking how mechanics and damage works and I can comfortably say the artificer was always relevant. In one game the alchemist only made it to 6 in the other game which is currently going on the artillerist is level 15. Honestly choosing to rate these on combat merit alone is why you're probably going to have some feelings about these upcoming reviews haha. I understand why he did it but this game doesn't feel like it wants to be only a combat game even if most of the mechanics reflect that. I think that has more to say about its design philosophy with regards to roleplay being open-ended then it does equating 5e to strictly combat. But that's just my opinion.
Yeah I actually don’t think you and treant disagree as much as you think, he essentially said that every artificer except alchemist is perfectly viable option to consider when making an optimised character. But you’ll have your work cut out for you with armourer, and to a lesser extent artillerist.
@@pearshaped9116 It's the tier placement that I disagree with.
Agreed!
I've found I can do some really OP things with just infusions. The problem is that it's hard to see when theorycrafting because a lot of the OP things came down to interactions between infusions and other PCs class abilities (or infusions and other items we found).
@@AdamZollo We on the same page haha.
I’m excited for this series! I love that you laid out the criteria so well before hand.
Also nice shout to the dungeon dudes - they make great content too!
I liked all the caveats and thought process included in the Ranking system section.
I already love this series! From the title I was like "meh" but when you explained that you'll be ranking ALL subclasses against each other I got really excited! Cannot wait for when you get to Cleric!
Wait.
The armourer puts up a 22 AC very easily.
How are you supposed to be beaten to a pulp?
And Blur Spell on top if you want to be the primary tank. And self healing.
"make a dexterity saving throw"
Also the ranged weapon does 1d6+Int and once per turn +1d6. Compared to a longbow, two attacks do 3d6+2xInt which is higher than longbow's 2d8+2xDex
how?
@@phelps6205 yep. There you go, any intelligent enemies will laugh in the face of your puny saves.
I’m so glad you’re making this! Really excited to see where you put all the other subclasses!
I’ve been struggling to optimize the artificer, and this reflects the limitations of the class you have to work with lol.
algorithm comment, best D&D channel
Looking forward to having a comprehensive ranking! Really appreciate the weighting based on when you get class features, it's something I've been thinking of doing for awhile and imo it makes so much sense
I think you undersell the temp hp you can get out of Artillerist, especially at those lower levels you value so much.
Yeah, but Twilight cleric outshines the artillerist with his channel divinity, both really outstanding features, but the twilight one is near gamebreaking
@@samuel2000LoL well, with Twilight def being S, there is a lot of room for Artillerist to be more than D ;)
@@Tomrash absolutely, but we are gonna have to wait and see for the placements of the other half caster subclasses imo, thought the artillerist sure is a nice subclass.
As all artificer thought highly dependent on setting and DM 😅
@@samuel2000LoL yeah but you get what 1 or 2 use a day where the turret can be resummoned for a spell slot and it last an hour
@@druxusthemage9806 nah man, channel divinity resets on a short rest, so u are sure to have it when u need it, also 2 uses a day pre lvl 6 and probably 4 after 6 are plenty.
While the artillerist needs slot and at low levels it cannot summon it a lot, and even if he does the slots will fade quickly 😅
Looking forward to this series.
I looked at the alchemist when making my current character. The party needed a healer, I really liked the concept, but it just seemed so lacking. Ended up going shepherd druid and having a blast.
Funny you decided to not be the artillerist to have a blast
@@willdouglas1617 clicked on the reply knowing what I was getting into and wasn’t disappointed
So glad about what you said about feats. My massive pet peeve with subclasses is “a feat can do this”, particularly on MAD classes. Other subclass rankings I’ve watched and have consistently done this and it feels like it stops them looking at the actual merit of the class . It is particularly frustrating when the argument made is “this is essentially feat x, which is a really strong feat that you could get anyway”. Okay, but if it is a really strong feat it is surely also at really strong ability and then would allow you to look at other feats and or asis
Point of order on thunder gauntlets: the dual wielder feat can be used to pretty good effect. Armorer doesn't get a bonus action option, so less competition for that action, and you get a +1 ac at all times. Also, additional chance to use the gauntlet's secondary effect.
The fact that the gauntlets don't have the light weapon attribute is silly. You shouldn't need a feat to punch two things.
temporary hit points as bonus action isnt option? or u still have spells what have "bonus action" cast time
@@neronHCF the temp hp ability is an option, but it's very limited. Especially if you're able to buff before combat, it will only come up very rarely at lower levels.
@@znbrtn problem with bonus action is comon problem for many classes, and this is not their problem, this is a problem of the whole system, u need aditional feats to fix this problem, like for barb or for most not dual wielding martial classes, and well, a lot of spellcasters have this problem too, and btw, u can take Homunculus and use ur bonus action for 1d4+pb every turn
@@neronHCF this is very true! Some classes/subclasses are absolutely swamped with options while others have to work hard just to get anything at all.
As for the homunculus, that's totally an option, but it's not to everyone's taste, so I don't take it for granted.
I don't know who the person is who hits the dislike button on each video within the first 5 minutes of its posting, but they are strangely motivated.
Chris has been around for a while and prolly picked up some haters along the way
I honestly believe is people that are watching on their phones and missclick in hurry to watch the video, it happens all the time with me.
I'm so ready for this series!
Agreed. This content Nerdarchy and Aj Pickett's channel are the best in my opinion. Well when it comes to know if something is good or bad. Oh and Esper the bard is my guy too. Thanks again Treant Monk your insights and research make the game easier for me to understand and therfore I have a MUUUCCHHH better time playing.
I am really looking forward to all of these upcoming videos!
Gonna wait to see other classes, but I’m already tempted to bump artillerist and smith one lvl. Artillerists are like one of the best classes in the game in late tier1 and early tier 2, and Smiths can be made pretty strong throughout. You can make these guys with AC25+, strong saves and you can make them with high DPR (well above average, but of course not as high as the Uber optimized).
Excited to see your rankings on subclasses!
I’ve been wanting to see you rank every class/subclass for a while now. This is gonna be really interesting
I love the ambitious scope of this project!
Probably no one will read this, but if you want to play an Alchemist and be efficient and powerful do this: Artificer Alchemist 3/Warlock 2, Race: Elf or another one where you sleep only 4 hours. You wake up early and can prepare up to 8 potions of you choice per day + 1 random potion; if you don't' dump charisma you also can Eldritch Blast and be good damage dealer. If you want to drink / give other characters the potions in combat, use the homunculus. And it is totally within the rules.
I have a good amount of time playing an Artillerist and I have never felt like I was a drag on the party. The amount of temp hp they put out through 9th level is amazing… the cannons lasting an hour can be huge. You are a support character but your support can leverage other PCs in amazing ways.
I think they should be a solid B ranking… they are not easy to play but are very effective when strategy is used.
I’m excited to see where these class rankings end up going! I really like the choice to compare all subclasses to all other subclasses.
Love this video and series. It's always great to hear takes on this game that are different from mine. I've been running under the impression that Artificers and their subclasses, as the latest additions to the game, have benefited from all the mistakes made in the past and therefore are the best designed class and subclasses in the game and I think I'm far from alone in that estimation.
Wonderful idea for a series of videos! I've leveled each artificer subclass up to level 20 on D&D Beyond and they all seem pretty comparable provided that you are willing to be selfish with your infusions instead of handing them out to party members. I'd put them at least at C if not higher. Of course you are the one who inspired my hobgoblin alchemist who uses a greatsword in combat when not casting spells with your optimized alchemist build.
Oh man, you went harsh with these. I agree with Alchemist being irredeemable (and as a chemist in real life, it feels really bad) but I would put each of the other subclasses one step higher. However, I'll concede that I might just not be used to the ranking system yet so I'll withhold full judgement until I see where the others stack up.
Big question though: How many monks are going to be in F?
I would guess about three escape the bottom of the barrel.
I'm guessing Astral Self and Sun Soul hit F, maybe joined by Shadow and Four Elements.
@@TherinCreative Astral Self is that bad ? Shoot !
I love artificers but I can only play homebrew subclasses. The battle smith is wonderful but all the other subclasses are hilariously underpowered.
I like your optimizer's perspective on these tier rankings compared to other channels. Can't wait to see where the other classes and subclasses fall.
Think there's a gross underestimation of the Artillerist potential here. I don't even like Steampunk in my DnD and I can admit that. And the Alchemist is better based on class alone than a Purple Dragon Knight, especially as a multiclass dip.
I built an artificer and bought a 3d printer simply to have fun with the cannon designs. Optimization wise its weak but a 3 level dip then wizard for a 8th level or higher character is still good enough. www.thingiverse.com/thing:4744033
That really super depends on what you're wanting from the dip and which class you're multiclassing with. If you're dumping Int and looking for primarily weapons armor and some HP then fighter will almost certainly be a better dip. Getting to high enough levels to take banneret also gives you action surge, which can be a great boost for burst damage. It can be a better dip, but not necessarily imo, it all depends
A thousand times yes- I want to see all of these videos!
Treantmonk recently had his homebrew rule video where he agrees he plays with optimizers and has optimizing in mind. In my experience though even casual optimization is extremely powerful and can overshadow everyone in the party. That was me every time I played an artificer and it wasn't even hard to do
I was looking for something like this thanks love your content like this
Man, things are going to get rough when we make it to M...
He will need to add a new G rating lol
@@ericlambert1354 heheh, or Z
Heh, I feel like you took my note from several videos ago about how powerful the artillerist's temp hp is at level 3. I'm looking forwards to this series!
oh man, i'm so excited for this series!
WOW :D I AM SO FREAKING HYPED! THANK YOU MAN!
Exciting to see how all the classes stack up now that there are so many extra additions to the roster from the last ranking.
A monumental task, I will be watching every single video 🙂👍🏻
I am pumped for this series
Damn, that was harsh.
Me" Ok. This one should be a b or c.
*Treantmonk puts it in D tier.
Me: daaaaaaamn
From playing artificer for about a year's worth of weekly sessions i can definetly say that Artillarist is very potent. You can basically allow your enire team to shrug off one average hit every round as a bonus action. The flamethrower does great sustained damage too. Never found a use for the ballista though.
The big thing is that you reaaaallly need to use the crafting mechanics to get any decent usage out of your main action. Making a wand of magic missile and replacing that with a wand of fireballs later on is definetly a must. Artificers are the best class for crafting due to their tool proficiencies, relevant spell list and level 10 bonusses (once they get them). So I definetly think that the base chassis is stronger than you give it credit for. Also due to Flash of Genuis + guidance being an amazing boost for important rolls such as stealth or persuasion.
As for alchemist, the armorer's weapons and battle smith being a paladin-lite, i agree.
Very sad that one of the "Artillerist's" best features is the temporary hit-points robot, and that there is inexplicably no upgrade for it at level 9. XD
@@johngleeman8347 Maybe it's simply because the Protector was strong enough, but the damage-dealing options weren't.
The Artificer is an incredibly subtle class and it's easy to miss the optimizations. It supports the team's Action Economy significantly. Rating on the Alchemist misses three crucial optimizations. First, Alchemist elixirs are intended to be used with Tiny Servants and the Homunculus infusion to administer multiple healing elixirs using either a bonus action or on a trigger -- e.g. three Tiny Servant helmets (4th level casting) that administer potions to three downed characters with no action. Unfortunately, these elixirs are not potions. Elixirs have their own special rules that restrict administration by another character to only incapacitated targets. Second, several of the elixirs have significant effects that do not require concentration and stack. Notably, the Elixir of Boldness adds a d4 and stacks with Bless, and the Flight and Transformation elixirs do not require concentration. Third, tier 3 Alchemists can have their minions cast (potentially multiple) Flaming Spheres using the Spell-Storing Item. It uses the minions' concentration. You will have to think through how this works carefully if using Tiny Servants whether you can formulate simple commands (e.g. clicking a button to activate, moving multiple spheres to the nearest enemy, etc.) and it will probably need some DM verification.
Agreed it's a subtle class. I have broken the game so many times, but almost always it comes down to an interaction between an elixir or infusion AND some other thing you can't plan for when theorycrafting, like another party member's ability or a cool robot pet we found or an item we picked up.
And as an Alchemist, I have definitely found offloading my Spell-Storing Item or other infusions (e.g., horn of blasting) onto tiny servants has been a big thing that breaks the action economy in a big way.
That said, these strategies took a long time to come online. Tiny servants comes on at level 9, SSI at level 11, and it's not until 13 that you can start upcasting Tiny Servants which is where the real fun is.
I also started UA and when I transferred to the official, the DM let me keep the Many-handed Pouch as an infusion, so I can literally pass items to my Tiny Servants while they are 100' away hiding on the other side of the battlefield. And Tiny Servants can even pass items between each other at major distances. I feel I'd be not quite as good at it without that UA infusion.
Why wouldn't elixirs be subject to the action economy rules of drinking a potion on DMG page 139 where its an section to administer or drink either? There's potions called elixirs in dnd. Every magic potion besides the health potion doesn't mention the action economy of drinking it in their descriptions, and if they do, don't mention restrictions on it. Even the experimental elixir description doesn't say you CAN'T administer it to a creature that's not incapacitated. I feel like a lot of the hate on the alchemist is due to the idea that there's some sort of special restriction on the action economy of elixirs that other potions don't have that frankly are unfounded within the game
I feel like Battle Smith is a bit underrated here. With your ranking system, I'd put it at least at B. A staple infusion for the Battle Smith is Enhanced Defense + any of the weapon infusion. 9 times out of 10, that's what you're going to have at level 3-5. And you're INT-SAD. You're a gish that doesn't really need War Caster and can utilize your bonus action to deal damage from the get go. Not to mention that you get access to the Shield spell. It's kinda hard to mess up your build unless that's what you're actively trying to do since while you have a lot of choices to choose from, it's crystal clear which choices are better than the rest.
I agree with the rest of the rankings tho. Armorer being bumped up into C is arguable since both Guardian and Infiltrator are a bit better than how you describe them. The loss of Shield hurts Guardian but you make it up with other spells such as Blur. For Infiltrator, there's an extra 1d6 per turn there and the launcher works with Sharpshooter (and Sneak Attack).
In terms of Battle Smith being a B, I would want to see the placement of a few other subclasses from other classes first (specifically other gish builds). Like...where's moon druid going to be? Where's Hexblade going to be? Both of those are fairly competent gish fighters, about as good at doing physical damage as a Battle Smith, but get 9th level spells. And based on his previous ranking video, it seems unlikely that either of these are S-tier (Warlock as a class he rated B-tier in his class ranking video; Druid as a class he rated A-tier, but he didn't even consider Moon Druid to be the best druid subclass). These subclasses will likely get A-tier at most, with an outside possibility of one of them getting a B-tier ranking, which might force Battle Smith down to C. Or similarly...paladin subclasses, I expect paladins to be clumped around A and B tier (with none in S-tier). Bearing in mind how much Treantmonk loves having good saving throws, if he has a number of Paladins in B-tier, I expect that might push Battle Smith down to C-tier.
So...C for Battle Smith might make sense depending on what subclasses he is making room for *above* the Battle Smith.
Also the launcher is just a better longbow before level 5. I think 2d6+mod is better than 1d8+mod. Its basically a ranged greatsword. At 15th level its always 2d6 on your second attack, and the second attack has advantage if you hit with the first one, and the next person to hit the target has advantage and gets an extra 1d6.
Came here to say the exact same thing. The unoptimized Battle Smith will perform solidly and will be effective in any party, put a little optimization in and you can get an excellent build. Get GWM, an infused great sword, and use your defender for flanking to get advantage, and you’ll be a better heavy weapon user than most other builds. On top of being int-SAD with some pretty reasonable control spells like Web. Maybe multiclassing with bladesinger X or paladin 2 (should you have the CHA) to round out the build.
I’d put it in the upper half of B tier myself.
@@mikebieser4175 Advantage from flanking, being an "optional rule", aka houserule, should generally not be considered in rules discussions unless the effect of the inclusion of that rule is an explicit focus of at least a significant part of that discussion.
@@BardedWyrm so are feats, multiclassing, etc. generally, we do consider all of these things when thinking about builds. Every table I’ve played at has permitted flanking, if your table doesn’t that is totally cool. But it is relevant to discuss how pet builds are strong with flanking.
Even without flanking, a battle smith is still one of the better heavy weapon users in the game due to the built-in magic weapon.
Just in time, I needed that video.
Stay Classy Chris....this is exactly why i wait for your content...
Mighty lofty goal, Treantmonk!
Stoked for this series
Very excited to see the end game of these rankings. Will be nice to use when recommending good options to players. Very excited to see monk if only for the laughs.
Hype for this series. I always like a good tier list.
Looking forward to this series!
Looking forward to more of these! :D
Well done and thought out. I'm currently playing a Battlesmith and 'a weak paladin' is exactly my impression. I will say that, design wise, i feel that the Artificer is well balanced level over level. The problem is that none of the features ever get above ok. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
I am so keen for this series. Dungeon dudes are great too
Thanks for putting these together, love all your video. I been reading your guides before RUclips, I am worried you will run out of stuff to do, but keep the good stuff going.
I like your view on this as it’s a full tier list. Cleric multi class going to be good across the board I think, are you going to call out dip-hex blade vs full, as that is massive different.
I’m glad to see Armorer getting the ranking it deserves. It blows my mind how many people rank Armorer as a high tier just because it’s cool.
Spot on! It is cool, and I'm probably never going to play one.
Honestly, my biggest fun ever was a artillerist. High Ac, healing, can focus on just a few stats, don't need to worry with concentration.
By simply using a damage cannon on bonus action and a create bonfire centrip, you're set to make the fight more interesting.
Cannons can ocuppy squares and force enemies to attack them or move around. Create bonfire can also force a movement.
The lvl1 spell catapult used with a oil flask is specially fun in this.
It was not the strongest of the table, but it never got close to danger. At level 10 the AC was just to big, the infusions would allow for fly or other cool stuff without needing to worry with concentration and also having spells from a pretty decent list, this character had just never faced danger.
The only thing I ever wanted to have and didn't in that character was a easy way to prone enemies, or a ally doing it.
Great mini series! Ive been looking forward to this.
I really wish alchemists where better. They are the only subclass i really like thematically, but its just sad to look at
I'm looking forward to this series, Dungeon dude's were good and I liked it a lot.
Oooooh! This is so exciting! I'm really looking forward to your rankings. I enjoyed the Dungeon Dudes one, but I do tend to rate their judgement as not as good as yours. Although I know you value spells more than I do. I especially agree with your point that feats are not free! I've heard people be like, oh swashbuckler has stuff you can get from mobile, and I'm like, so? Maybe if you are definitely taking mobile it matters, but otherwise, it's still good!
So if I understand correctly, this ranking system accounts for the base class chassis too, as opposed to just the subclass features? I.e. does this mean every wizard subclass is at least A tier, etc.?
Can't afford to give you money, but this certainly deserves a Subscribe. Thank you for putting so much thought and effort into this analysis. Cheers!
You gave voice very well to the problems I've had with Artificer for years. It should either be a full caster, or it needs to amp up its martial capabilities to match the other half-casters.
So one minor upside to Alchemist that I think works the way I understand, is that their potions can be prepared before things go down and then distributed by their homunculus using just their bonus action (and maybe object interaction to hand over). Since the effects aren't concentration, it means you can dump out a lot of buffs and stuff at once in the first round or so. Since they don't have a lot of slots, it's not something they can do much. But hey, it's neat. The mini bless, shield of faith and cure wounds are all good enough use of a bonus action in most any situation that they are easy to prep long before a fight breaks out. Of course this is incredibly resource intensive especially since their one free potion is random and half the potion effects are very situational, meaning it's easy to end up with the only free potion each day being squandered. The baseline Artificer spell list isn't very amazing for support either, so their main action isn't really as valuable anyways.
@@sharkforce8147 You can administer a potion to someone else as an action can't you?
@@sharkforce8147 So I don't actually own the PHB or DMG, but the quote I have seen is "DMG - Chapter 7: Treasure - Magic Items - Magic Item Categories - Potions
"Most potions consist of one ounce of liquid.
Potions are consumable magic items. Drinking a potion or administering a potion to another character requires an action. Applying an oil might take longer, as specified in its description. Once used, a potion takes effect immediately, and it is used up.""
There did not seem to be any stipulation only for healing potions or only for unconscious targets. I saw a ruling stating that you could administer a potion to an unconscious target, but that also did not seem to exclude conscious ones. Does this make practical sense? Not a ton, but neither do a lot of things in DND, like fighting a giant dragon with a short stick. To me it seems like a general concession for the sake of practical game rules.
So unless the Elixirs are treated differently from other potions, I don't see why they couldn't be administered as an action to anybody.
I give this ranking video an E tear. It' s far beyond the average Treantmonk level of quality. One of the most broken, both RAW and RAI, classes(before strixhaven), with infinite familiars for everyone, 2'nd level bag nuke, god-like saves etc. gets maximum of C, and gigachad 30+ac armorer scores less, then artillerist and a fragile ranger mockery battlesmith is. I think you should sit, reread Tasha and do some math, or better, play a game with reasonably smart IRL artificer in your party.
quite an ambitious project. i like it.
Something worth considering with the artificer, which I feel you mentioned with the Moon druid. Every time a new CR1 creature is printed, the Moon druid is buffed as their options to wild shape expand. The same thing would apply to common magical items for an artificer. The more common magical items appear, the more an artificer can be replicate in an infusion. I suspect it would need to be discussed with your DM but replicate magic item would apply to spellwrought tattoo potentially giving the artificer access to every level 1 spell in the game once per day, for the cost of an infusion. Its not a bad way to get find familiar without spending an ASI on a feat, and you get access to it from a level 2 artificer.
Not just Find Familiar, but since you can pass infusions around each dawn, its a great way to cast Find Familiar for the entire party, and then to give your familiars familiars, and when you have enough familiars, to get one extra concentration spell held by one of them. Spell-Storing Item is also a great way to get more concentration spells on the field (maintained by your pocket dimension familiars)
when there are more ranks than things to be ranked. This will be intresting.
I think every video will just be building on the same chart
I think the PHB, Xanathar’s, and Tasha’s are the universally accepted players books. How many subclasses are there in those books, 50? In all the books, 80?
@@JohnJStanton I think said he it in the video but I can’t remember
There are 114 things to be ranked.
Yes, finally! Someone that ranks a subclass both inside and outside the context of the base class. This is the most meaningful comparison. For example, the Gish that leans into its martial side more than its spellcasting being compared to other Gishes or half caster martials. Or casting classes against one another. Etc... Ranking subclasses in a bubble doesn't do this.
@Treantmonk's Temple: Your subclass rankings for Artificer make sense given your earlier views on the Artificer class against all other base classes. Well done. I'm especially looking forward to your Bard ranking series, and whether you'll go back to Valor as the best given the focus on combat here, the inclusion of all optional spells from Tashas (Giving the base Bard spell list access to Mirror Image, Slow etc... reducing the need for MS), and garnering medium armour + shield without the use of a feat. This makes for a very versatile and underrated subclass.
Looking forward to it!
I think a key point missed when looking at the armorer is that the lightning launcher can be chest mounted, i.e. it doesn't need a hand to wield. This is pretty major as you can use that hand to hold something important like a shield which you wouldn't be able to do with a longbow.
I made a wonky D/E tier build which used Shield Master, grapple, and Lightning Launcher to knock people down, keep them down, and still get full attack actions. I called it my Lockin Shockin Robot.
I'd love to see a video going through the final tier ranking chart with now 2+ years of retrospective. I'd be interested in what has moved up or down!
I belive that Battlesmith do somthing that Paladin and Ranger can't without sacrifice some weapons or multiclassing, that is make a SAD build, just pick battlesmith and go rest wizard, and you have a Full int/con character, even armorer could make an abjurer wizard, stronger than ever in the protector rol.
This is why I think amromor should go up to D or even C on the tier list. It's pretty nice as an early multiclass build with a wizard. Warforged, splint mail, shield, and enhanced defense infusion and you are AC of 21 at level 3. Means monsters around that level have to roll a 16 to hit you. Additionally, you can focus on utility and contol spells as a wizard and use your special weapon attacks as your damage output, though this trails off at higher levels. Also, touch combat spells become more viable. Straight armorer, I agree is tough, but as a multiclass option which I understand to be considered for ranking, I feel it desrves a bit higher.
@@unnefer001 both armorer and battlesmith are multiclass core, as hexblade, the problem is that need 3 levels
"i wanna play Tony Stark!"
"we have Tony Stark at home"
Armourer: the tony stark at home.
I am absolutely looking forward to this. You are pulling no punches with these low rankings and I appreciate that. I take excepting to the armorers ranking. They can have a huge impact on the game with the mobility feat. I am always excited when I can disagree with you because unfortunately I think you are right 95%+ of the time.
Going back to this video from the others I think Artificer suffered from the "first in" line of thinking where ranking are looked at from a harsher stance.
Obviously this
I think that alchemists need full rework to work more with potions. Stuff like letting them make
Lv3:
1.) Alchemical insight ; You have learned an inate understanding of alchemical ingredients, making your brews more effective.
-The dc for poisons you make equals your spell save dc.
2.) Elixir arcana ; You magically conjure supplies and craft a powerful brew.
-You gain "potion recipes" as you level (think the experimental elixir effects with more options and status effects as you level), maybe letting you distill a potion you find to add more potions to this list, then letting you craft x gp (maybe + spell slots depending on rarity/strength) worth of potions per long rest. Any remaining potions are lost after 24 hours or you use this feature again
Lv5:
1.)Deft hands ; you have become experienced in how to handle volatile elixirs with care and speed.
-You can drink, give, or throw a potion as a bonus action (maybe make potions count as a leveled spell to limit effect stacking with spells)
-when you take the attack action on your turn you can coat the weapon you attack with in poison as a part of that attack.
9th:
1.)Eccentric Infusion ; When you take a short or long rest you can imbue a number of potions in your inventory with equal to your intelligence modifier (this can include your elixir arcana) with one of the following
- Bolstering brew * When a creature is affected by an infused potion that creature heals for a number of hit points equal to your int modifier
- Withering brew * when a creature is affected by an infused potion they take necrotic damage equal to your int modifier, you can decide if this damage is non lethal when you infuse the potion.
Lv 15.)
1.) Alchemic Epiphany ; You have mastered the crafting of magical potions. You gain the following
-You gain resistance to acid damage and poison damage, and you are now immune to the poisoned condition.
- When making a Elixir arcana you gain two new potions
- Greater restoration * a creature effected by this potion gains the benefits of the spell "Greater restoration
- Heal * a creature effected by this potion gains the benefits from the heal spell
-(Alternative) You can imbue your Elixir arcana with the effects of an artificer spell you have prepared.
-This costs 10 gp per level of the
spell
-The spell effect must target 1 or more creatures or objects directly
- The spell effect will only apply to the creature that the potion is applied to
- The spell is not considered magic for the purpose of counter spell, dispell magic, or anti magic aura.
I'm waiting for the monk subclasses to populate the bottom half of this list
And by bottom half you mean lowest tier.
I needed this. I was trying to figure out if a Armorer Sharpshooter with a level in Wizard and fighter would be worth it.
Very interested to see all the subclasses ranked
I agree artificer seems like a weaker subclass, so in general I agree with these rankings. Though I would put armourer closer to artillerist, at least on the same ranking. Infusions are a big part of Artificers, and getting two extra ones, even restricted to just your armour, is really nice, and can give you some good options for optimisation.
Wow I'm late to this party but playing a Giff armorer with a pistol in a spelljammer campaign and I think one feature overlooked regularly is the magical tinkering. The utility is amazing. Make little marbles smell to mask your scent from dinosaurs, emit sounds to distract guards, the options are truly unlimited and I've found I had to back off to avoid overshadowing others in non combat sections. Player ingenuity is necessary, but the tools are plentiful for a high investigation crafty character who still does quite well with the right equipment and in spelljammer specifically. I realize Giff + gun pulls a lot of weight there, but infusion on top is chef's kiss and i still outpace even the cleric and fighter for AC.
Am excited for this. Have to agree with your ratings here. I think it takes someone who knows what they are doing to make the class work effectively and you really have to to be creative. That being said they are a ton of fun to play and a good option for a support/Jack of all trade character.
How many infusions can artificer do in a day? I understand they can only have x number active but does that mean that they can repetitively infuse items throughout the day cause they just changed their mind or were showing how for coin over and over. Where does that state that?
Combine Armorer with an Echo Knight! DO IIIIIT. Your echo is not you. So your echo is attacked at disadvantage, gets an AOO if the enemy moves away, and any reasonable DM i’d gonna understand that gauntlets are worth at least 1sp. So booming blade. Great for kiting.
I think this is a gross underestimation of the class and flat out misunderstanding of the Armorer in particular, arguably the best subclass of the lot.
In the hands of a competent DM who doesn't merely traipse the party from one bloodbath to another, but actually treats them like characters in a story, its an incredibly versatile class.
Watch every wizard subclass put in a separate “Wizard” category that’s above SSS
God-tier for the God Wizards.
Chronurgist definitely in S for sure. But there are weaker Wizards, but the lowest Wizard I expect will be in B or *maybe* C.
And then, above even them, the clockwork soul
At least imo
Although I am certainly biased :)
That was a joke about Treantmonk’s personal preferences not wizards per se ^^
YES! This is what we needed :D
Do we deserve it? ;)
I think the main draw of the alchemist elixir is that it frees a lot of space to prepare spells with other effects. Sure, cure wounds is roughly equivalent to the healing potion you can create, but the difference is that you don't need to prepare cure wounds. If you need rapid healing, you have Healing word already prepared, and if you need to heal properly you can probably afford to spend two turns. Also, you get one for free. Basically you get a one per day random free 1st level spell and a pseudo expanded list of prepared spells. And unlike the Battlesmith or the Armorer, you also get more room for creating support items with your infusions. I agree the other subclasses are better, but I don't think is as terrible as people think.
With regards of the Battlesmith, the obvious take is creating a melee fighter and run into combat, using the Steel defender to grant disadvantage to enemies attacking you. But again, no one forces you to do that. And you can command the steel defender to take any action a medium-sized creature could take. You can give the defender caltrops, or vials of acid. It can help an ally, or try to shove or grapple an enemy (It's proficient in Athletics checks). It can use magic items, such as your spell stored item, which means you can have it concentrate in something like Heroism, Levitate, Enlarge, Heat metal, Sanctuary or even Warding Bond. The defender can get opportunity attacks, and if you crit with it you can use Arcane Jolt. Or use Arcane Jolt to heal allies. Did you dump strength? Let it carry all your stuff! If you are small you can ride it. If you are a lightfoot halfling you can hide "inside" it! In general, it can be an stupidly annoying component on the battlefield that is very independent from you. And it is pretty mobile, with a speed of 40ft. If the enemy decides to target it, which means not targeting the rest of the party, it's very cheap to repair. It also offer a lot in terms of flavor. You can dress it up as a person or animal, and trick others. And it doesn't need to be a robot. You could just reflavor it as a wooden puppet, a bio-mechanic abomination, a rune-infused clay doll, a lead soldier, an animated armor... Everyone focuses on the INT to weapon attacks, but the steel defender is just amazing.
This is like some grade A old school brilliant gameologist content
Can't wait for the monk episode ^_^
A fun little alchemist trick, though probably good enough to affect the ranking, is to combine a boldness potion with a Bless spell. Now your party SS/GWM can never miss.
They have to give up their first action to drink the elixir though...