How Much MORE Money Are Managers Making Than Bands?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- Recently, Dez Fafara (DevilDriver, Coal Chamber) talked about how one of the bands he manages grossed 6 figures on tour and came home with almost nothing. In this video we talk about how expensive the music industry has gotten, especially when it comes to how much managers are traditionally getting paid...
00:00 Intro / Story Background
00:46 "You Shouldn't Be Talking About This"
02:25 Will Touring Costs Come Down Soon?
03:32 Bands Are Making A Fraction of Every Dollar
04:21 How Manager's Get Paid
06:26 How Much A Manager Traditionally Makes
08:27 The Wrong Management Contract
10:26 Times Are Tough For Everyone
13:36 Bands Are Gonna Quit / Outro
----------
FOLLOW ON SOCIALS/SUPPORT THE CHANNEL:
The Back Lounge Podcast: rss.com/podcasts/tankthetech/
Instagram: / tankthetech
Facebook: / tankthetechofficial
Twitter: / tankthetech
Twitch: / tankthetech
Discord Channel: / discord
RUclips: / tankthetech
Merchandise: tankthetechmerch.com
Patreon: / tankthetech
Donate on PayPal: paypal.me/tankthetech
----------
Follow my created streaming playlists all of the music featured on my channel:
Spotify: open.spotify.com/playlist/4LN...
Apple Music: / roadie-reactions-playlist
----------
#management #musicindustry #roadiereactions #tankthetech
This is crazy what’s crazier is when bands talk about financial troubles some groups call them entitled
Yea I saw a couple old out of touch dudes online saying “bands now are wimps” for not touring it’s not that they are wimps it’s that you can’t get paid anymore so why bother touring
You have to have money to make a band. It takes a lot of money to take a band off the floor
@@nunya9370 right now the only ones making money are legacy artists. Everyone else is pinching pennies, and for someone to back you up? You gotta be extremely good and that just doesn’t happen very often . It’s hard for musicians right now
@@nunya9370 not really. It’s all about connections. There’s a lot of talent out there without the connections that’s what is all about
@@nunya9370 might be different over there, here in Los Angeles is different
Music was my life as a kid but I started working in the industry and saw how it was. So I became an engineer and left music as a hobby
Exactly
Best decision of my life.
I was talking about this a number of years ago. All the way down the line, live music has become insanely expensive and possibly untenable for anyone but the biggest of bands. Even local show kids are going to struggle because of gear costs, it's just not good.
Local shows struggle due to lack of audience. Too many other things for people to do. Play Zelda at home or go out and pay $10 to see your friends band play. Most people stay home. From 1970-2000 there was not much to do at home so people went out to bars and clubs to see bands. (Hammerjacks in Baltimore was packed Thursday-Sat with over 800+ people in the early 90's to see local bands.) Now not so much.
@@mrpbody44 It's a price thing as well. It costs me as much today to go see a small local band as it cost me to see Fear Factory 25 years ago. Salaries haven't basically doubled since then, so I see that price and it's just not worth it.
The same goes for festivals, the lineup nowadays is often shit, or bands that I've seen multiple times, and the ticket prices are obscene. Why would I go?
The live music issues go hand in hand with recording industry issues. In the past, successful acts could live off of their publishing, royalties, and record sales. That meant that they didn't have to tour to survive and they had bargaining power with venues, bus companies, etc. Now, bands have to tour to make a living and everyone in the industry knows it. That means they have to pay whatever insane prices and concede to whatever insane demands they have to in order to be out on the road. Hate to say it, but it turns out Lars was right after all.
The used market has been dumb for certain stuff, but hell yeah to teenagers in punk bands playing the cheapest gear and going wild for donation gigs.
Playing music has been exclusively for rich kids for decades. That's why it's all so watered down. Working class music has been erased.
I'm mid 50's and in the UK, I remember a TV interview with 10cc back at the end of the 70's saying that they didn't make money touring, to them it was touring that drove Album Sales and then album sales were where they made their money. Some how that switched around 2000 where touring became the money maker for most bands. Now albums can't be trusted to make a living from as the format is no longer mainstream, tours barely break even, fans are priced out of seeing bands (it used to be you could afford to see a band every couple of weeks, now its much more a 2 or 3 times a year!). Add in the sheer apocalyptic loss of venues in the UK over the last 2 decades. To me it feels like the industry is killing the artists. Somethings gotta change.
The sad part about all of this is there is a breakpoint for the consumer and bands on overall cost and the companies that are gouging touring bands and consumers wont change until the faucet of consumer dollars slows, but the bands will ultimately take the hit. How many companies and cost points of a tour does Live Nation/Ticketmaster control? They are ticket sales, resale tickets, most of the venues, promotions, merch fees and/or merch services and I am sure there are a few more. I personally believe that Live Nation/Ticketmaster plays a huge roll in all of this. Live Nation Entertainment did 16.7 billion in 2022 Their closest competitor, EventBrite, did 187 million, which isnt even in the same solar system. I am still blown away that the FTC allowed the merger, I am sure several folks in Washington got paid very well to make it happen and as always the consumer ultimately foots the bill.
If enough bands say no to touring for 6-12 months. Things will change.
I feel bad for bands, they are getting screwed from both ends of the system.
It has never been cheaper or easier to produce and distribute quality music, it is shocking to me that bands still line up to get abused by major labels which make constant touring a necessity for them to make money and now they don't really have that anymore.
Going forward, I think the most successful bands will be those that think outside the establishment.
This is definitely frustrating to hear about these situations and the costs involved with touring. Thanks for helping to push this information out for both fans and newer bands to learn about.
A band that I'm friends with told me, that they had an "offer" from a management company to take them under contract for: 500€ a month flat fee + 10% of all earnings.
They are a band, that can command 300-500€ guarantee per night. They would basically pay to play for the forseeable future with that kind of contract.
yup. That's a predatory contract. Hope they didn't take it.... bands don't need the management of the old days
@@sonus289 They didn’t.
no reputable management company charges an upfront fee, that's like booking a pay to play show.
@@mutedmutiny9542 Yes, but it still happens and these companies get away with it.
That band dodged a bullet.
Any management company that charges a monthly fee on top of their cut off the action is scamming. Legitimate management companies don't do that.
I remember talking to a touring musician in 2005 about how a five date northeast tour they took in a van netted them more money than a 40 date cross country tour in a bus. This was a band that had no trouble selling out the venues they played, sold the shit out of their merch, and they still barely broke even when the getting was good. No idea how that same band would fare in today's climate.
And that's when people still bought physical music.
Always remember - nobody buys a concert ticket to see the band manager.
Ticket prices are going to go way up.
This will make sure small bands aren't going on tour, and force them into amateur status.
So we're going back to pre streaming era, which isn't necessarily that bad (the market is over saturated (60.000 songs added a day?)), but the wrong people are still getting money they don't deserve.
Same shit, different toilet.
So, you depend on corporations to do your leg work?
Learn to DIY.
Start your own label
Own your own music
Book your own gigs
It's the only way to ensure against getting screwed.
@@spiffymongo4030Crack on mate.. Enjoy spending all your money trying to get people to buy something they expect for free.
Been at this in various forms since 1976 and now is by far the hardest time in the industry all around. The most money I ever made was owning a sound reinforcement company in the 70's as there was very little competition. Right now I would say the best niche would be a manager. The tools are easily available and a good manager will make or break you. Most bands can't self manage as it is a different mindset. I did it all band leader, sound reinforcement, studio owner and engineer, studio musician and band manager. I made the least as a band leader by far. I think there are just way way too many bands out there. Right now too few good managers. Like any business timing is everything.
More bands make a living now a days than in the early 00's.
If a band makes 12K from a tour, not only do they have to split it between four five or six members, plus lost wages from your day job while on tour. So insane.
Well... MAYBE. There's a chance the band members have their own salaries built into expenses as well, so they're guaranteed money, and then that $12k is leftover for the business or to be split. But we don't know based on this situation.
@@TankTheTech That sounds reasonable. I love this channel!!
@@TankTheTech that could be the case indeed
I had a talk once, with a German front guitarist of a very famous band. He told me they were in the hands of the same management as Iron Maiden, and they sold records and sold out venues and all that shit. Never made big money.
Until they changed management. “If I’ve had those guys managing us back in the day that I have today, I would be a wealthy man today. “
It’s like you say, Tank, it depends on the manager and that persons standards in life.
helloween?
@@cbr9914 Has to be. More indicting is Rod Smallwood was the one that screwed them. For shame. Then again look what happened to Derek Riggs.
@@MetalPersonJ from what i understand, the management company for helloween sort of owns/runs the band. they also ate up all the smaller euro metal labels under one giant umbrella (nuclear blast, atomic fire, etc) and own their own vinyl press. i think the band is pretty much on a very very good salary, vs having to deal with and navigate the runnings of the business.
@@MetalPersonJ to be fair, bands should really read the fine print
If the managers are getting a percentage of the gross sales, there is 0 incentive for them to try to get good deals for the band. If they are getting a percentage it should be on net profits which would incentivize them to go for the good deals and would put their income more on the same footing as the actual members of the band
Preach. Everyone deserves to be paid but let’s be honest the band should be ending the tour with the heaviest pockets of all involved.
We arent talking about managers in the sense of "your boss". we are talking about about a company (management firm) providing services to another company (band).
They dont tell the band what to in detail, how to spend money etc.. Would you provide your service to another company and make your earnings dependable on how they spend their money? And if they decide to travel with private jet, you say "fine for me that you are lowering your net profits... and my earnings"? No ?
Thats why it`s always revenue / gross sales...
"there is 0 incentive for them to try to get good deals for the band."
eh, competition?
When I was younger all I wanted to do was be in a band and tour. So I got a job in a local venue doing security and stagehand work to get my foot in the door. As much as I loved the work and the music all the people looking to make a quick buck off every little part of a show/band ruined it for me. Not the bands or local workers but management (of bands and venue). One owner even said he didn't even like music. This was a few years before Covid and its all just so much worse now.
I manage a local band, going on 5 years now. My deal with them is, there are 5 members of the band. I make #6. All decissions are put to a vote. In the case of a tied vote. My vote takes a step back and I ask the band as a whole, what do you wanna do? And that decission is the decission. My ony off beat deal with them is that money doesn't come out of my pocket to pay for expenses unless I offer to do so. I make no real money with them. Just little favors here/there that help us all get the band moving forward. Granted, if the band were to be looked at by a major lable and the band wanted to make a change from me to someone from the label they are free to do so, but we have already had that talk and for the same reasons Tank talks about here that they would want me to stay on to make sure label paid manager doesn't take monies from the band. We have a very GREAT merchs setup for a local band and we have been able to make $1000-2000 a show just in merchs sales and we are talking 200 people shows. On average the band is making approx $5-15 per fan in the buliding. Not too shabby for a local band with no fanbase or money. Now looking to play our first show since 3/2020....
We just keep things really small but we try to act bigger than we are when nationals come around Tampa and ask us to open up because of the product on stage. If it happened tomorrow we might have to decline because of how things are currently. The band all has jobs, relationships, businesses, KIDS... We just can't drop life to open for band123 from metal era ABC to open for, for $50. $50 doesn't even put gass in one vechicle and we have nearly 3 or 4, plus our gear.
Dude thats incredible! Tell me your secrets!! How do you do it? How do you make money for the band like that?
my favorite new subscription in a while...
my subconscious has been waiting for this ~
Love your channel mate. Your right our business is based on the dreams of vulnerable people. I myself have left countless jobs on the promise of “making it”. I had a great time thou spent a long time in the USA in the back of a Chevy van and I feel I took my run at it to it’s natural conclusion. I’m a grown up now with 2 amazing kids and an amazing wife. The only advise I could give for what it’s worth is write songs and keep going. You will meet shady people you will also meet amazing souls. Work hard and don’t forget to enjoy it. It’s the best job in the world. Keep the vids coming 🇬🇧
Great, informative vid Tank! Thanks
That's the story in just about every industry, those who do the least work make the most money. It's long past time for a change across the board!
Educating the upcoming musicians is the key to change. If they don't have a vet to tell them what they're up against they will repeat the mistakes the vets made when they started out and nothing will change.
If you think the people who take an act from local nobodies to international superstars or handle the day to day business of major acts work less than everyone else, you have no idea!
Thank you for all this content. It's fascinating. Am a musician, but just a hobbyist. The business of music is absolutely compelling. Also appreciate your candid and unfiltered approach to dialogue.
one of the bands I listen to, Imperial Age, posted on Facebook a few years back that this is one of the reasons they do a lot of the behind the scenes stuff themselves. I wonder how many of the up and coming bands will follow suit
Yeah, bands used to make money on record sales as well as on tours back in the 70s/80s. Nowadays, the vast majority of people don't buy albums, so touring is the only way for bands to make money. However, with the expenses of touring resulting in high prices for tickets, fans won't go to shows either. It's going to get to the point where young artists will simply need to choose a different career.
I’m in Canada. I used to go see atleast 5-6 shows per year before. Not anymore. A venue that I used to go to in Montreal, shows were usually around 35-55$ depending on the artist. Clutch came by not too long ago, tickets were 176$ each. I saw Alter Bridge, Mastodon, Trivium, Killswitch and Tea Party there for that 35-55$. At Bell Centre used to be around 100$ per ticket, now closer to 300$. Forget it man. It sucks but come on way too expensive
Corporation life. Thank you for this video. You doing great job in this "mess".
Could be the reason why nightwish cancels a tour for the new album. Everything is too expensive, while the band doesn't get enough out of it.
Canceled because of Floor's health. This discussion doesn't affect bands like Nightwish, which sellout all their concerts. Affects the small bands. Don't mention like GodSmack, Anthrax.......old time bands. Who wants to see these bands past their prime.
Floor just beat breast cancer, and is now pregnant at 42.
That has nothing to do with it and that's what they said. Neither Floor's pregnancy nor her health plays a role in this. That's what they announced. It's about the tour that should actually take place for the upcoming album. There will be no tour for this album, which is unusual and has never happened before. Rumor has it that there is dissatisfaction in the band and the management. That's why Floor has inserted their solo tour. I think due to Covid and the long loneliness, there can be discrepancies when you have toured for a long time and suddenly you are together 24/7.
But now that the topic has been dealt with here by tank, the financial situation would also be likely. Marko was already dissatisfied shortly before his exit with how little they earn when the rest get so much more. Now, when everything becomes even more expensive, such tours are even less worthwhile.
I just found your channel and Holy shit I love it!!!!!!
All the way down to local bands it is harder. Places are paying less than what guys were making in the 80's in a lot of cases. The cost of making it happen is higher even at a local/regional level. That was part of my decision to take a step back in February. It was taking more than it was giving on every level. Simply put, I wasn't in it for money, that has never been consistent enough to count on. It stopped being fun most of the time.
In the 70's my band would get the door at a club usually $1,000-1,200 That is $5,345 -$6.413 for a weekend show in a major metro. We owned the sound system too which saved us $100 -$200 a night
@@mrpbody44 Nowadays, cover bands are playing 4 hr smoky bar shows for $100 - $400/night. (Tulsa)
Great Video thankyou Tank
Hi,Inflation and the lower value of the US dollar can hurt as well. This hurts EVERYONE,not just musicians. It hurts every other non music industry to. It's sad but true. Hoping something will change for the better for everyone. Thanks for the video 🤟😎🎵🎶
glad you have some sense man, never understood these people who keep saying things will eventually get cheaper.. The only way that'll ever happen is when a company starts to lose money, until then it'll stay the same or get worse.
so basically, the whole industry is going to implode when the old timey legacy bands retire.
Well then you can have tribute bands take up the slack
@@mrpbody44pretty much the Casino scene in SoCal.
It always a shock when someone like the actual Blue Oyster Cult comes through.
Thanks for making this vid
Very informative video, thanks so much! Man... the cost of doing what you love .... I worry that my boys from Electric Callboy are not gonna make a penny off the north america tour, because they go all out for their shows ... poor sobs😅
I wonder what gets more money to the bands directly... buying merch at shows or online at merch shops🤔
Well, I think you mentioned something in passing that is interesting. A LOT of bands have been doing reunions and such, so I think there are probably more large bands out there trying to get a buss, PA systems, etc. However, if bands start breaking up, that demand is going to plummet. How long before the rental companies are willing to take 80%, 60%, or 50% less over the 0% they make on a truck that just sits there taking up VALUABLE space.
This is so interesting and every fan should know about.
There's a local club I go to for certain shows. In front of the stage is the floor, behind that is the bar, and there's table seating across each side of the bar. The balcony is U-shaped around the building and has tables towards the wall and chairs along the railing
The balcony tables used to be VIP reservations for $100, everything else, the chairs and the downstairs tables were first come, first served.
After the pandemic restrictions were lifted and they started running shows again, all of the tables cost between $80 to $300 to reserve, and the chairs cost between $25 and $200, depending on how close they were towards the stage.
Thanks Tank - very informative - which is why I love your channel. A manager should make a percentage based on what the band actually earns... "pay for performance" Not a new concept
Smaller DM guy here, thank you for covering this. I've been beating my head against a wall over it for the past 3 years. This is super helpful. Thank you again.
Metallica's Binge and Purge booklet that came with the box set had a Europe summer of 93 tour budget in it, that had the manager take 27.5% commission out of $5.1 million revenue. Taking home $1.4 million and leaving Metallica with a $355,000 loss. They've obviously learn't a lot since then of course
that's cool they showed the budget though, giving fans an inside look at what goes on. Like Tank said I hate it when industries hide the numbers like its taboo
That mgmt budget had a whole lot of band costs baked into mgr cost, including the mgmt staff.
It probably shook out to 15-17.5 which was standard at that time.
A manager would run the numbers upfront & make sure the band isn’t losing $300k plus on a tour and make adjustments & if the math doesn’t work out they cancel the tour.
I’d bet Metallica were pulling smoke & mirrors with those numbers & nobody in their camp would balk because they’ve kept the same mgmt around since then.
Okay probably dumb guestion, why not kick out the manager then and be your own boss?
@@teijaflink2226bound by a contract. I know of a big time television director who fired his manager, manager sued, won and was awarded his contract commission plus a percentage of future earnings. This director directed major US events.
A band who fires their manager better have a good lawyer review everything before anyone acts or says one word, because that manager likely has good lawyers.
Very interesting, thanks.
Tank - You are right about prices not going down over time. Why??? i am surprised no one has brought this up but look at what a tour breakeven point is. The higher the break even poiny is the increase in ticket prices become and this means marginal bands can he forced off the road so to speak.
Aside from the obvious issues which have sat more unreasonably and hidden within the music industry (because the arts are always a soft target and thus take a beating) its no secret that business needs a f**king good hosing down these days. Even as greed goes beyond reason there are limits at which things stop functioning. Although as you say that those prices have become a comfortable pair of shoes and thus aren't likely to descend, when things do grind to a halt I would imagine things both pivoting and getting pretty ugly. When these problems really bite into more than just a soft target, that's when proper wake up calls tend to get dispensed. Interesting times.. I wonder how it'll pan out..
Mark Workman was our stage manager and lighting director when I was in Steeler with Keel and Malmsteen in L.A. in 1983...
Is some of the pricing differential dependant on regional costs? I can absolutely imagine a west coast tour being so much more than a Midwest tour.
I know unrelated but will there be more Avatar reactions? Fell in love with them again and would love to hear your opinions!
prices NEVER go down. Look at the economy and past inflations/recessions. Prices ALWAYS go UP and never go back down.
You’ve mentioned the book of the tour manager(memoir i suppose) in this video. Which book is this?
Sabaton has a good solution. They are their own manager and have been for many years. The bus that the band travels in is owned by Sabaton.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if we one day find out labels were orchestrating a campaign behind closed doors to make touring completely unaffordable for independent artists.
If an independent artist does have some success on the festival circuit, the "big name" record label might see it as a "safe bet" and make an offer to help take them to the next level. A&R people are going to the festivals looking for talent. The only nefarious thing the big labels are involved in these days are the "360 deals" because they're taking a percentage of merch and ticket sales.
@@muziktrkr yes labels want to sign acts that already have positive cash flow. But with monopolistic vertical integration of the touring industry and their target demo no longer being the bands fans but the bands themselves. Why wouldn’t they squeeze out anyone who doesn’t play with the only ball in town? Which just so happens to be theirs.
That's exactly what they are doing
Back in the 1980s most companies (world-wide) had in-house training. Then US politicians became wise to promoting ''Education is the answer, the future'', which was 100% a racket for corporations to offload the liability (ie cost) of training their own employees. Ok, so, corruption, nothing new there. However, what most don't realize is that that then puts the burden on every employee up the chain who then seeks to recoup the cost of said education, hence the ensuing drive of more and more corporations to spend larger portions of those savings on increased lobbying in order to get even more perks. By the mid 1990s, Bill Clinton basically trashed FDR's monopoly legislation. When corporations merge, the first thing they do is cut overhead; maintenance, bulk materials, look overseas, etc. WalMart was not only allowed to buy entire competitors but to do THE ULTIMATE SIN according to FDR's policies... buy the entire supply chain, literal manufacturers in China. At the same time he broke teh rules that used to disallow the owning of more than 1 kind of media company; previously, no one could own a tv station AND a radio station, or a telephone company AND a local news franchise, etc. Since then everything has spiraled into a push up the chain.
The increase to a $15 minimum wage did exactly what the rich wanted it to, it pushed the prices of goods up. Did it help the self employed? No. The retired? No. Those on SSA? No. It only helped new hires at retail levels, maybe 1% of the workforce. But, so many corporations are umbrellas now that a large enough percentage of them were impacted - in other industries - that the overall affect was put on the burn pile. The USA is terminal, man. This place is predisposed now to punch down, it didn't used to be that way. Say, for instance, back when music was good and bands could tour and new artists had a chance... back then the incentive wasn't to punch up or down, in fact, it was much more about cooperation than competition. Welcome to a super rich owned uniparty where both Democrats and Republicans are truly Libertarians just pretending to be Liberals and Conservatives. The rules of engagement here today boil down to the heart of Libertarianism: YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN-ism (unless you are a corporation with full protection from any legal liabilities, in which case you can dig a little deeper to bribe, ahem, share with your fellow Libertarian liars, cheats, and murderers).
Does this apply to the megastars that sell out arenas and stadiums as well, be it older big rock acts that are still around, modern pop stars and rappers etc., or this more about the artists with a decent cult following who sell out smaller to medium size venues?
It's gotta be about how you contract with the venues. [x amount] base fee plus [x percentage] of ticket sales after [x number]. I remember making like $75 for the night because the venue was crap and it was just what we had to do and it doesn't help when merch sales suck for the night. I hate that it's become worse and that you're right that it won't be getting better. Don't forget about venues that just flat out refuse to pay!!!
Tank, I listen to mostly smaller rock/punk bands that do still record music and tour just on a smaller scale and new music over a longer time period because the member "work regular jobs" since being a band full time is not possible. Probably similar to many smaller metal bands. You have given fantastic info on the touring costs and ticket scalping issues but in your opinion what is the most efficient way to support the artist and get the most amount of money in their hands? I still buy the albums and some things directly from them but the cost of live tickets is just too much to go to all the shows. What else can the fan do I support the bands most efficiently?
My band works with management so I’ll weigh in on this. The whole percentage thing was the single doubt I had going into anything like this. Luckily, we were offered a flat monthly payment with no extras or percentages. That works for me and everyone involved. Sure, there are times when we have a lot of shows coming in and then times where there isn’t so many but that’s okay, everyone is happy. I just played at UK techfest this year with bands like Born Of Osiris and Chelsea Grin!
To summarise, I think bands need to be more proactive sometimes when it comes to things like this and really read into what they’re getting into.
Great video and I enjoyed the watch!
Did you calculate the costs and read if there is price eacaltion in that flat fee or other mechanisms for additional fees in the contract? It might seem like a better deal, but if tou havent looked at the hard numbers it can get bad. Imagine this guy does nothing and you have no termination rights, you will owe him cash for nothing. Do you have specific requirements for what the managsr needs to provide for that salary?
What i think should happen is a few of the large bands should get together and purchase some properties. Build a few festival sites in sunny locales and run all the major tours and supporting acts through your sites. Run it year round and book major acts for a week at a time. You control costs since the bands will be in one place for a week.
Been a touring tech since the mid 90's, LD, TD, monitors, guitar tech...PM'd national tours from kid shows to bands to corporate and PM'd venues from a shithole 1K cap dive bar to one of the largest, longest running musik festivals in the country.... Here's what I see is the bigger issue, smaller bands think they are at arena level with their touring production package. They are traveling with 2 audio techs, a lighting tech, guitar and drum techs plus audio desks and a lighting package. If you are direct support, you don't need your own light rig. Stop wasting money.
The same holds true to arena and stadium sized bands, pre- covid average arena show was about 8 trucks, now average is 14... you don't need 4 video walls, 30 lasers, an FOH stage you do 2 acoustics songs on then run back up your 50'long ego ramp to the main stage. Small scale show Local crew calls have gone from an average 40 hands and 30 riggers to 125 hands and 60 riggers just to fit all that extra crap on stage in time for doors.
Could a band make $235K and end up with $12K? Yes, especially if they are spending $20K a week on crew and gear rentals when they should be spending about $8K
In the company I work for... the manager top salary is actually lower than the top salary of the engineers.
The big guys at the top understand that there is no product to sell without keeping those engineers happy as it's easy for them to step out and go to competitor.
I wonder why the same doesn't go in the music industry. Is it because you can't easily switch management companies? Maybe that needs addressing.
As an engineer, I might need the name of that company... 🤔🤣🍻
@@sccrash3938 🤣
Seems like the only way this might come down is for demand to crater from bands/artists skipping touring or leaving industry, forcing a correction, unless of course the venues/suppliers/vendors go out of business as a result, spiraling down further...
The Cramps were able to make a decent living with (by industry standards) minuscule record releases every 4 or 5 years and annual touring in 800 to 1k seat venues all throughout the 80's, 90's and into the 00's until Lux died. There were actually a lot of bands that did that. Hell, the Ramones never had a gold record. Greed is killing actual culture.
I remember my biggest problem in the early 90's was deciding whether to see White Zombie open for Danzig, or Husker Du open for The Cramps. Both those shows were on the same night and were 12 bucks. That same month I saw Slayer for 17 bucks. -For reference, I had a crap job at a Dairy and made a little over 7 dollars an hour.
I was friends with Lux and Ivy and know their situation well. They made no money until Ivy took over the management, accounting and starting their own label to put out back catalog in the 1990's. She said it was the only way they could survive. IRS records never payed them and they won a small settlement but no where near what they were owed. No one on that label got paid.
@@mrpbody44 yes, I know IRS basically screwed everybody, it sucks they never got the full share from Songs The Lord Taught Us and Psychedelic Jungle, but the lesson learned is Ivy did it herself. Too many people think that they will pay somebody who will only take "10% off the top" when that's the only money that will ever be made. It's your career and your business, nobody is going to come along and make sure you get all your money.
About prices, it's true that when they go up it's hard to see them going down, yet if the margin is so high at the moment, this is a good time to bring on some competition.
If I had the money, I would buy a nightliner, knowing that I could crush the competition.
There is still a problem with lack of resources since the lockdowns making what's available more expensive.
Too many left the industry and got comfortable working 9-5 jobs, there was almost no recruitment, almost no new equipment was bought, and now there's a lag at manufacturing and shipping.
@@Adamskyize
It's all true, but if there's demand... sooner or later someone will see it as good business.
@@ChristianIce Oh yes, the industry is definitely growing back. But we lost centuries of hard earned experience that will take some time to get back since much of the growing is from scratch.
And the component and shipping shortages are still all too real.
There's always a way to fix these things. Problem is few are willing to do it
This is insane and I agree that it’s probably not going to get better. I have to think with the way tech is moving that concert simulations will be a popular thing. Actual live shows with a real crowd, but also with the option to sim in from home with a vr device.
Paid live stream shows were happening all pandemic. Problem is anyone can record it and upload later or fileshare it
Powerwolf did an awesome production like that, their 'Monumental Mass'. Choreographed like a proper live show, the whole team probably vetted and checked over for 2 or 3 weeks before actually getting together into place (to weed out potential covid infected people).....I paid for it back then, and absolutely loved it.
Wow. You’re right, I don’t see costs ever coming down…in anything. At least not in free market economies. I wonder where the tipping point is? Where either band say “we can’t do this” or fans say “we just can’t afford this”?
Don’t forget about the sunset Clause, where even if you leave a manager you will still have to pay a percentage to the previous manager for x amount of years. Helps insulate the manager who may have done a lot of leg work to help only to be replaced
Informative video, to add to the conversation. I play guitar in a national touring act called Jack Russell's Great White. I took over Tour Managing duties 10 years ago. No question tour expenses have gone up since 2021. Our band had a manager, who took 15% of gross until Jack clipped him 8 years ago. Previous to that, it was not possible for band members to make more money than the manager. We'd hear from our "manager" every couple of months as he continued collecting money without a care if any of us made money. It makes no sense for bands in our genre to have a manager anymore and most do not. Like most of the bands of our era, we pretty much only do weekend fly dates. We are able to make a living as long as we play at least 2 weekends a month. This only works because we travel bare bones and cut the excess of a TM and manager out. I only take a fraction of the fees for doing all the duties of a TM and manager. This way all the guys can make money. This is not dissimilar to recording these days where everything is done in-house.
The last run of any length for us was a 6-week live nation tour in 2018. It was by far more cost effective for us to rent 2 vans (one for the band, one for the gear) and get hotel rooms than it was to lease a bus. It has become more difficult, however there are still ways to add additional income beyond merch and paid meet n greets. I feel for the new bands starting out, it's no easy task to navigate.
Yep. My band has always paid out crew first and we have very often made substantially less than they did. And they didn't make much. In some cases we made Zero. after say, a 7 week tour. Keep it up, Tank.
Even though I had the dream/ambition and drive to start a band and play shows, I realized decades ago that it was a struggle to make a living. If your band was really good bsck in the early 00s, it could or would make sense, if you got signed back in the day it could make sense, but it was always a dream that left the details out. The reality is that professional music is an industry and unless you make it as a hobby or remain 100% independent, it doesn’t look financially feasible.
In just a few years the option of touring for experience and exposure by new musical acts will be over. Many of the heritage acts this year alone are calling it quits from city-to-city touring. KISS, Aerosmith, Foreigner, the B-52s and Elton John. The costs of taking a big show on the road state to state, country to country or continent to continent are mindlessly prohibitive. It cuts deeply into the big acts' profit margin, and with advancing-age these groups can no longer perform 6 and 7 days a week for months on-end. I can see more 'Residencies', and closer Regional touring in the future.
Btw how do you feel about managing a 23 year old death metal band from India? I could really use a good manager.
It all looks so bad for the bands that I definetely see them not wanting to do music anymore. Dani Filth just spoke up against Spotify, and about him making just £20 out of millions of reproductions last year, and its Cradle of Filth! I can't imagine the insulting amount smaller bands receive, how can they survive all this s#!t?! 😢
Portion of a penny
This is why I buy music rather than stream.
I have a feeling this is going to be an awesome video for us spreadsheet nerds lol
Nevermind. No spreadsheets :P
I would go a hybrid way. I agree the manager should be held accountable for their quality of work, but I would include a minimum fee that has to be paid regardless. Otherwise, half way through a tour after all the heavy lifting is done what keeps a band from ditching the management to limit expenses?
I remember reading about how Motorhead got fucked by their management contract during the 'classic' era. Lemmy said he made more money from the residuals from No More Tears (he's got songwriting credit on 4 songs on the album) than he did from the entire Bronze discography.
Indeed, prices for services such as buses etc, will not be coming down. I don't know what bands can do except figure out more and more ways to cut costs or charge more and more for ticket prices. But at some point some fans just won't be able to pay ticket prices. Ugggggh.
It's basic economics... supply and demand. There is a very increased demand for concerts, and the requisite equipment and venues. The supply has not increased to meet that demand, so prices go up.
Prices will only drop when the supply exceeds the demand. But as long as fans are willing to shell out $250 per ticket, they will be charged $250 per ticket.
Things will only get better when we stop buying.
Almost makes sense to go DIY as much possible and do local or micro tours
It's really about how you establish your financial foundation in the very beginning.
The " Bands" that your talking about are " Specialty" type music to a specific Audience .
Prices of infrastructure will never come down.
Now, It's about getting the Booking Agency to charge more.
All those Bands don't draw big numbers like " Luke Combs" or any other Nashville Cookie Cutter project.
and ppl wonder why ticket prices have grew...only way itll get fixed is if fans stop buying tickets till the outboard touring nessesities realize the momeynhaa slowed. But thatnwill hurt artists short term unless other ways of doin the tour cheaper
Maybe do something on US festivals. While I don’t know the pay structure, can a band make money doing only festivals? It looks like this is what many bands are trying to do. Less overhead but I’m sure overall pay is substantially less.
My experience is in Finnish scene. Starting bands are happy to get 50 to 100 for a show. (meaning being the local bar level bands)
Everyone who is a music fan should support live music as much as possible
What the fans need to do, and I know it would be hard for a lot of them, is, stop buying tickets, and stop going to concerts, just give it up, I did, now Im glad I made that decision! I used the money for something more useful like paying a bill or two. And as for missing out on seeing your favorite band live, anytime any band is on a current tour, there is always videos of the current shows on You Tube, I just search what show I want and Im good, and of course it is not like being there, but is is a pretty good substitute, and you still have your money in your pocket. Then after all these bands start playing to half empty venues, and the tour support business starts seeing profits dwindle, maybe they will collectivley cut their pricing, and we can get back to concert tickets being a reasonable price!
Until then, Im good watching the shows on YT.
I wrote previously about Sabaton's tour. This is what they had and I guess it includes the staff of Lordi and Babymetal aswell
THE TOUR TO END ALL TOURS IN NUMBERS
Did you know that it took…
👉 +50,000KM of travel
👉 9 buses, 12 trucks and 1 tank
👉 170 people
Nailed it ,oh...and prices almost NEVER come down....in any industry.
Do you think it'd help touring bands (big or small) to out-right purchase their necessities (bus, lights, equipment, etc.) Instead of renting every single tour? If the answer is no, what would be a reason?
think its also fair to note that management companies are more than just a single person. They have employee salaries to pay as well, so it makes sense why they make what they make.
TALENT
This is what happens when your economy sucks. And this why even if you don't think politics matter, and you want to just ignore it and head bang, shit like this is why it actually does matter. And we as citizens have a duty to ourselves and our country to educate ourselves and pay attention.
Don't just vote for whoever you were told to vote for. Pay attention to policy, attitudes towards energy independence. Cause guess what, that means whether gas is expensive and if gas is expensive, everything else is to. Cause you gotta make it move everything, and it all takes gas.
Didn’t see the full video yet (now at 5:25) but prices are going up as well due to crew and people working behind the scenes stopped working in the industry because of the pandemic. So less people working means less bands and venues can be helped out so the highest bidder wins. Very unfortunate but this is what you get when your government doesn’t support the music scene during a pendanic. People that are very important to the scene quit their job to get money elsewhere. (This is especially true for the EU and NL)
Part of the reason that personally haven't going to shows is not the ticket price, but the ticket mark up by Ticket Master and the like. If the tickets are $100 at the venue, fine , I have no issue. It's when Ticket Master takes the same ticket and sells it for $200 - $350 + service fees, because they can...
Back in the 90s, we booked our own tours, put out our own records, t-shirts, played everywhere, and did it on our own terms for the love of the music without a fn manager, or a decent record label. We had our ups and downs, but we were doing what we wanted to do, and had a lot fun while at it. You Rock Stars made it into a big business, and have forgotten what our Hardcore, and Metal scenes were created in the first place knowing real well there's no money to be made in this if outside influences creep in. You dug yourselves into a hole for the love of money. Enjoy the tears.
My son is a great guitarist and was perusing it as a career!! He just signed up for the fall Semester at our local College after viewing this, and im not bullshitting !! I had already told him this for years but now he realizes that it’s ok to keep as a hobby but to think that for one minute that that it will be a sustainable career that will pay the bills….. That dream has been squashed for millions of inspiring musicians and its fucking sad to say the least…… Welcome to the reality of the our fucked up music industry!!!!
Could he make it as a session player? With current technology he could record at home.
Thanks… He is a great player and we are in the process of building a home recording studio that will pacify his and my music playing and recording…. AS A HOBBY!! I am an RN and musician and he has signed up to be a Radiology Technician… Great Money, limited hours, guaranteed paycheck’s and still play, jam, and record… Best of all Worlds!!
It is a pretty horrible situation. But, that could be part of what drives costs down. If tours stop happening there will be a lot of bus companies that will have a lot of inventory that just sits there. Demand being down is what will drive costs down.
Who's to say they don't write off the surplus as a loss sell them and triple the prices for what they keep. Manufactured scarcity.
Bands and Fans need to know about this stuff.... Bands need to know about it so they know how about much it will cost to go on tour, Fans will now realize why the ticket prices are what they are, nuff said...... will it go down, not anytime soon...the music industry touring is kinda like computer parts, its supply and demand, if parts cant be made, prices go up, there was "Covid", so thats the excuse for prices going up, but as long as people are willing to pay the large sum for a ticket, a bus, equipment, why should people lower the price when they know it will be paid out??
I used to tech for a 5 piece band, there manager got 20% of the money they made 360% so merch albums ticket sales etc, so that meant the 80% left was then split 5 ways meant each band member that wrote and played the music as a team they made 16% each , so whats the point they said, the manager sat in his office, and generally worked harder for his pop acts, and this punk/hardcore band - that slaved and toured, and the manager always made more from each show for not even turning up. And as the band was known before signing a lot of their shows were being asked from other bands or supports where we fitted with internationals so he wasnt working too hard.
im writing this atb the start of the video so I am assuming your gonna do that breakdown, yourself,
Everyone who is friends with a band or has been on the road with a band thinks they can manage a band. There are “real” managers, who understand the business, have the relationships and skill set to add real value… and then there are a million glorified tour managers, who book hotels and flights. Road managers are crew and get paid like crew.
“Real” managers are the CEO of your business and deserve their 15-20% of the gross just like the agent earns their 10% and lawyer 5%. Running a working band is business with a lot of moving parts. If you don’t know how to do it or don’t have the time, you have to pay a professional… and that’s what it costs.
The reality is that most bands don’t have enough business to justify paying a manager. They’re not on a major label, aren’t working radio and TV/Film, press internationally, etc. Most of the bands out there today operate like the DIY scene of the 80s punk and indie scene. What they really need is tour management - help with the details of getting from A to B… not creating and executing a complete business plan for the act to take their career from A to B.
On an economic front, prices would come down for buses if people realized how lucrative it was and started new or expanded existing companies. The question would be if there is any reason that couldn't happen, like the sort of monopolistic moves of Ticketmaster/Livenation but for buses. I have to imagine that right now buses are expensive, like cars, due to needing chips and other things that are difficult to produce - but those prices have come down a bit too. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in a few years.
Yes , it never was easy to be a rock star ❤️👀
Musicians and bands get screwed in this industry all the way around. When they record, they get charged extreme amounts from the sound engineer, producers, and mixdown and mastering engineers. Then they go on tour and get ripped off by tour costs, and management to play for the fans. Ticketing agencies and promoters cost a ton, raising the ticket prices. Then on top of that, they have to be over charged to make merch and sell it. A musician is one of the only positions that pretty much pays the people to listen to their music ... especially when you add in the fact that no one buys music itself anymore.
Regarding people getting "used to" paying more when businesses are trying to make up for COVID (which is true), it's not working out in my case. I had been playing golf for 20 years and even learned club fitting, but the golf courses all priced me out of being able to afford to play. Iron Maiden is my favorite band, but when they came to Chicago in 2022 I could not afford to go (first Maiden concert I ever missed in my area).