From Calvinism to Christian Universalism: Alan Spencer
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- My first interview! I have the pleasure of interviewing Alan Spencer who, like me, found himself on a journey from Calvinism to Christian Universalism (which he prefers to call "The Victorious Gospel").
I think I used to comment on this channel during my more traditionalist baptist days defending eternal conscious torment. I'm very happy to say that I've since changed my views, initially converting to annihilationism as a traditionalist baptist and then moving over to an open theist universalist position. It's been such a great, wonderful journey. I have mostly Peter Hiett and Robin Parry to thank for the challenge... their pastoral approach to preaching universalism really helped me look at my own presuppositions with humility. I do also remember this channel being very patient with me in their responses to my objections. So thank you guys for your pastoral heart, also. It definitely impacted me more than I even knew at the time. Love what y'all do!
@@WontonDisciple Awesome to hear! Thanks and Blessings 👍
BTW - would you be interested in an interview (at your convenience)?
I'd love to be able to share your journey into Christian Universalism with our subscribers! If so - please reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
If not - that's perfectly fine...
Thanks and Blessings!
wayne
Do you offer a universalist ministry? If so, where is it available? We need to offer ministries like this all across the country!
@@thespeez Thanks for your comment!
I couldn’t agree with you more 👍
I live in Tuscaloosa Alabama, and I only know of one other person here who embraces Universal Reconciliation…
I do host a weekly zoom meetup of about 12-16 people from around the world who meet for an hour and a half (at 12 PM CST) on Saturdays to encourage one another in our faith…
Should you like to join us just let me know 👍
Blessings in the Savior of All mankind ❤️
wayne
This was my journey as well! A former Calvinist turned Universalist, giving all glory to God's love AND justice in the cross!
Would love to hear about your journey - Thanks!
Hey John - just following up... is there any way we could connect - I'd really love to hear your story (from Calvinism to Christian Universalism)...
Thanks!
I have just recently started researching Universalism. I joined a website also, but some of the stuff posted doesn't make sense or is irrelevant. Id like to get with a group that is informative and easy to understand. I started reading That All Shall be Saved. I got a point in the book that I could not understand (and I am an avid reader ). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have ALWAYS thought that hell was a little far-fetched to say the least.
@@LoriBrown-vh8zj I’d suggest reading “Hope Beyond Hell: The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment”. It’s free and online. Easy read.
I'm a former Calvinist turned CU. The best explanation I've heard for Romans 9-11 is from David Bentley Hart's That All Shall Be Saved. If you're struggling to get a grip on the section, please read it. Because Calvinists stop at ch 9, they have embraced the very opposite of what Paul is saying -- with catastrophic, disastrous results.
Totally agree, Eric!
Would love to connect and discuss a possible interview?
Please reach out to me at:
hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
Thanks!
Hey Eric - did you get my recent emails? Would love to hear back from you - but I will not continue to pester you 🤗- Blessings!
feels good to find the TRUTH of UR. I too started as a fundalmentalist Baptist. Praise God I found the true Gospel of Universal Reconciliation.
I'm a hopeful universalist...I'm wrestling with the years of indoctrination of Calvanism and I'm afraid that I might be embracing something that I want to be the truth. I will continue on my journey of searching, listening, praying, reading that I will be convinced of universalism. Any help.would be very much appreciated.
So glad you reached out, John - and I apologize for my delayed response (I don't check for comments frequently enough!)
Please fee free to reach out to me at ...... and maybe we can set up a time to chat?
Richest Blessings In Christ to You!
wayne
I am in the same place as you are now... It would be great to chat some time
Where he mentioned all the people he could love some thoughts came up about authority. Jesus says we’ve been given authority and I’ve experienced and been the demeaning type. But something fascinating is that when the scribes and Pharisees mocked Jesus’s authority, it was when He used His authority to love people. Healing their ailments, opening their eyes and ears, and most of all forgiving their sins. They mocked and said who is this man that claims to be able to forgive sins? But to His disciples, Jesus commands to love our enemies and forgive others as the Father has forgiven us. So if the Father is always overlooking our sin but yet when we’re judged and acknowledge our wrong doings, He forgives us. But the only times I’ve ever experienced true repentance was when I was doing wrong and God showed me love. I wept over my sin and with tears of gratitude, not guilt or shame. And even though I was ashamed He continuous wiped my tears. Almost like He was saying “there there, it’s ok, I forgive you, we can move on from this”. And He performed something new in my life. I think that is the authority we’ve been given. It’s like these doctrines of men are viper venom and we’re now able to digest it with no harm done. Idk about any of you but ever since Universal teachings have been made known to me, I now find the spiritual warfare somewhat easy. If any kind of doctrine makes me wish evil upon someone, tastes like lukewarm love so to speak, I spit it out. When Jesus rebukes the churches in revelation, He tells one church to return to their first love. And to do the works they did in the beginning. Which I imagine we’re good loving acts. Just like scripture says we were saved from dead works to good works. Jesus says why do you call me good? None is good but the Father. Kinda affirms why Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees, “you say that you know Him, but I know Him, and I do and say what He tells me to do”. Then says “if you don’t believe me, believe the works “. I’ve started to learn when you view the scriptures like a child, always wanting to learn, meek, humble, and always want to find away to love others even when the letter seems to kill, life is breathed in and you all the sudden start to see unsearchable things. We naturally had this understanding when we were children but because our parents and the worldly teachings, the devil has created distorted children through the hands of the parents. And I’ve noticed without the view that comes from universal reconciliation, you’ll become just like the people you hate. Repaying evil for evil.
To add to that Jesus says to some, why do you call me Lord but do not do as I say? Those people claim to be preaching and teaching in His name but are called workers of iniquity. So the works done with ill intent are sin. Like scripture says, he that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin. There’s people who have cleaned the outside of the cup, forcefully but resist the love and correction of the Holy Spirit when it comes to cleaning the inside. So the people (I myself struggled this way) that clean the outside, will stumble and fall because they’ve missed the spirit of the matter. When judgement comes (the storm and wind Jesus speaks of) people faint (houses fall) because their works weren’t built on the replica of Jesus’s works. He literally says but the wise man who built upon the rock, his house won’t fall. I’ve had my structure destroyed and because of the doctrines of men that were full of condemnation, I felt my house being desolate and was unable to rebuild. Then Jesus touched me again one day and has been doing the rebuilding and restoring. I asked during this time, why me? Why do I get to be so lucky to be saved and restored, what about everyone else? That’s when I looked back into universal reconciliation and the light bulb just clicked on. I’m now able to look at people compassionately. The only people I have issues with are the indoctrinated (religious) because they resist and reject anything new and correction to love. They’re like broods of vipers. They’ll give you the cliche lines of God is love, just because they’re reciting what they’ve always heard but when you throw any type of correction out there about character, boy do they strike back. “Don’t accuse me they say” I say “I’m not, I’m trying to show you something “. Then I start realizing why we’re to dust ourselves off and move along and trust in Gods sovereignty.
Raised in the Church of Christ, lost and found my found through charismania, Vineyard, freewh3eling evangelicals, studied Catholicism. I came to universalism via George MacDonald who influenced the writings of C S Lewis augmentedl by the powerful proofs presented by David Bentley Hart. We have such hubris when it comes to thinking we know all about our God and Savior.
Thanks for your comment, Mary!
Indeed - somehow we think our minds can comprehend His Love and the power it wields - but that is not the True and Living God revealed to us in Christ!
Blessings! ❤
wayne
Wow, literally an hour ago I jotted down a note for a video I want to record, "If you weren't a "beat around the bush" turn or burn preacher before you found christian universalism then why are you a "beat around the bush" christian universalist? Ie. Why are you stuck in "hopeful" mode when you now really know how good God is? You were confident before, why not be confident now?"
Then I stumbled on this video.
I appreciate the folks I've gleaned from that have helped me grow in my journey from evangelicalism to Christian universalism but one thing that just bothers the heck outa' me is the tendency of guys like John Crowder, love him to death, to beat around the bush with quotes like, "I am and I am not a universalist" or blatantly saying, "I'm a hopeful universalist" so as to not offend anyone. Why do you care about diplomacy now???
"Cast not away your confidence, for it will he richly rewarded!"
Glad you found us, Brandon!
I totally agree with your sentiments - Crowder (whom I love too) is influenced by Torrance (and by Baxter Kruger - who studied under one of the Torrance brothers). They have some awesome theological insights - but I've never been able to understand why they hesitate here (apart from the stigma that being "dogmatic" here draws). J.B. Torrance of course studied under Barth - and Barth was the same way in this regard: they saw it as creating a metaphysical principle of Salvation - which we should never do for God (kinda making it "necessary" for Him to save all...) - but I just don't follow their "logic": if God has promised it - He WILL do it!
Can you tell me a little about your own journey into Christian Universalism?
Thanks, Brandon!
Wayne Fair
@@MrHwaynefair I was non-churched as a kid aside from a couple on and off years of Lutheran Sunday school as a little tike, then "saved" at a Benny Hinn crusade in '98 or '99 when I went down to the floor of the stadium with about 2000 other youth for an altar call where I was completely knocked out cold under the power of God (standing mid-crowd, about 50 feet from the stage, nobody knocked me down), Benny said "fire!" and I came to on my back, dazed. Then got heavily into multiple churches, pentecostal, charismatic, non-denominational, baptized in the holy ghost. Then about 5-6 years ago, while just sitting in my truck, something came over me and my mind, "the eyes of my heart" I suppose, opened up and scriptures started running through my mind in a universal-reconciliation light. I was instantly [mentally] seeing in a way that just seconds prior I would have deemed heretical and/or demonic. I thought I'd lost my mind. I didn't know if anyone believed this way, much less if I'd find them in order to ask questions or gain some insight. Then God led me to people, videos and books I'd never known existed like Thomas Talbott's "The Inescapable Love Of God," Brad Jersak, Paul Young, Robin Perry, Ilaria Romelli, just to name a small few.
I started a RUclips channel, that I haven't devoted as much time to as I'd like, because there isn't, at least a few years ago, a lot of good content about Christian Universalism on RUclips.
My channel is The Undeserved Flavor
ruclips.net/channel/UCbKIJLP3hIBP3i1ukN91qqg
@@MrHwaynefair funny thing, I'd been following John Crowder since '07 but never once, even a little bit, picked up on any universalist hintings or leanings.
@@BrandonJBraun Thanks so much for this - what a testimony!
May I ask where (e.g. state) you are located?
Also - would you be open to an interview (I have to ask 😊)? - If not it's completely okay...
Thanks again!
(oh - I will definitely check out your channel - and I understand about "content" - my problem is I want it all to be "perfect" vs "good" - but I've hardly gotten close - perhaps to either!)
@@BrandonJBraun Yeah - I've heard (and read in a book by him) in places where he calls eternal punishment into serious question - and, like Paul Young and Baxter - counters the common "you are a POS - alienated from God!".
I think they all believe in it though :)
18:40 Made Scripture the fourth member of the Godhead... couldn't have put it better myself!
Heb. 4:12-13 - “For the Word of God is living and active…and there is no creature hidden from HIS sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.”
Over the last couple of years I have found encouragement in Brian Zhand's book 'Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God' but when I lent it to a dear Calvinist ( who I love very much) they told me , after reading it, that they weren't impressed and that Zhand had seemingly too little regard for the Old Testament.
I’m not surprised. They are more committed to incomplete Iron Age depictions of God than to the fulfillment that not only surpasses but also overturns the Old Covenant, that by comparison is the ministry of death to the new’s ministry of the Spirit and Life. So, in effect they have too little regard for the radical nature of the New Testament and their hearts are veiled to the surpassing Glory (by comparison) of the Messiah. They are more committed to their logical demands of inerrancy- which will not allow that anything in the New can correct anything in the Old.
I've never been a Calvinist but two of the best books I have ever read were written by Thomas Erskine (a Calvinist at the time). They are 'The Brazen Serpent' and 'The Doctrine of Election." They are available online. Mr. Erskine does such a fantastic job of countering the limited atonement view of gospel as taught in Calvinism that it is absolutely no wonder that he went on to be a Christian Universalist. His arguments might be helpful to you when it comes to dealing with friends who are Calvinists, though they are well worth the read, either way. I just happened across them by chance one day and I am so glad I did.
@@Chrissiela Thank you so much, I shall note those titles.
This man is correct.
'MERCY triumphs over judgement' the Bible says...amen
how can God be a just God and a Merciful God? Scriptures proclaim Him as both.
They refuse to even acknowledge your question because they cannot answer it. To claim that Christ loved the Pharisees, for example, is to willfully deny what the Scriptures plainly say.
Are you serious?
At Johnhoran
Very simple. Traditional Christian teaching on afterlife punishment describes the punishment as eternal, saying that such a punishment is justice. The issue with that is that there is no mercy there. If God punishes sin for a period of time and then the punishment stop, then you have mercy triumphing over judgement. Mercy stopped the punishment. Mercy doesn't have to equal no punishment at all. @@Brandon-ew9xx
Hi! Great talks, thank you. I am a universalist in my heart, however I have trouble reconciling some of the passages in the gospel regarding sheep/goat - wheat/chaff etc, how do you tackle this? Thanks!
Thanks for your honest comment. Anyone who takes scripture seriously should have “trouble reconciling “ these tensions - but most move on and simply ignore the clear universalist affirmations, for none of us enjoy moving outside of the comfortable theological bubbles into cognitive dissonance…
Much could be said in response (e.g. see my blog at sovereignlove.org) but I will keep it brief here: these passages all speak of severe judgments that should be taken with the utmost seriousness- they are primarily addressed to Jesus’ audience and communicated with passionate rhetoric and hyperbole to drive the point deep into the hearts and memories of his people… But, like Jesus’ “clear” teaching that, if we would follow him, we MUST “hate” our parents (etc.), we are forced to ask, is this the “final” word? To which the final answer (largely in Paul) is “No!” - Jesus the Christ is the “final” answer! In him all the promises of God are “Yes and Amen!” Prophetic threatenings of destruction cannot be the end of the matter - for He is the Alpha and Omega (and much is implicit in that phrase)! Many passages could be cited that speak unambiguously of God’s ultimate will, plan and intention to reconcile ALL things- to bring ALL things into subjection until every knee bows and tongue gladly swears allegiance, confessing that Jesus is Lord. Then “God will be all in ALL”.
The only alternative is to finally have a God whose love and goodness are so inscrutable as to lose all intelligible meaning: there is no one who is good and loving who would subject their offspring to unending torment! But the furious Love of God, who is a consuming fire, can and will subject us to redeeming judgements, destroying in us all that is “not of love’s kind” (read George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons).
Footnote: it is impossible to communicate the utter confusion that the horrific mistranslation of aionios has introduced into this “conversation”. It does not and never fundamentally mean “eternal” - but “age”, and only by extension when in relation to the Life of God, be interpreted as implying “eternal”…
Another word, “lost”, at its root means “destroyed” - so with the lost coin, sheep, and prodigal son - even the state of being “destroyed” is no limitation on our God, who IS Love, and for whom all things are possible!
Richest Blessings to you and yours!
- Wayne Fair
@@MrHwaynefair wow I just read this. Thank you so much for the time you took to respond.
I was looking back over the comments I've received this year - and just felt I wanted to reach out to you and ask how your spiritual journey is going...
As I remember your remarkable testimony out of a new age perspective - I would just hope there is some way I can encourage you in your faith: whatever your are going through right now - God loves you and will *never* abandon you!
Please know I pray for you and am available to you any time should you need encouragement or counsel from this old (66) "brother" in the faith...
I pray you have a most blessed Christmas!
"I bring you good news of great joy which shall be for ALL the people - for unto YOU is born this day in the city of David a Saviour - who is Christ the Lord!" - Luke 2:10-11
Sincerely Yours In God's Immeasurable Love,
Wayne Fair
@@MrHwaynefair This really touched me. Just the thought means a lot. I will definitely reach out, for now, I accept the prayers and will be doing the same for you. A merry Christmas! ♥️💫
research the Greek word 'aionios' used in Mt25 vs 46....it has more than 1 meaning not necessarily 'eternal'
How do I find Alan‘s RUclips channel? Assuming that he has one… not watched this yet, so not sure whether
It was already said
Don't believe he has one (to my knowledge) - sorry
@@MrHwaynefair
No problem, thank you. Somebody was mentioning a pastor named Alan, who was a universalist, and I was wondering who it was
@@kathryncollins8708 Yes - Alan Spencer - he resides in Hawaii
Blessings!
Wayne
great channel..thank you !..subbed !
I am glad I stumbled upon this accidentally. I find Calvinist are good teachers but there is some fancy footwork to explain away seemingly straightforward verses like knock on door and it being open or John 3:16 etc. So who are the top thinkers of Christian Universalist?
Sorry for my delayed response (I need to check comments more frequently!)
Robin Parry
David Bentley Hart
Aidan Kimel
David Artman
are just a few for starters - there are many and the number is growing...
Ilaria Ramelli is **essential** for the historic grounding of this perspective - see "A Larger Hope" (a must read!)
So many ex Calvinists that have from one end of the theological spectrum to the other. So many ex Calvinists in general. I'm one of them. I've also discarded the unscriptural idea of hell as eternal conscious torment. My position is currently annihilation under conditional immortality. I am however exploring ultimate reconciliation / universal salvation but i too am struggling with scriptures that seem to plainly teach that some will be destroyed with Satan and fallen spirits and death itself in the final death after judgement
Thanks for you comment Jerome!
Would you be interested in joining a group (including a bi-weekly "zoom" meet-up) where you can freely discuss these issues with fellow-travelers on this journey into the heart of God?
If so - please reach out to me at:
hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
Or just reach out to me there and I'd be glad to share any thoughts I might have - I've been on this journey for about 15 years - I haven't "arrived" - but I am quite convinced that the most compelling message of the Gospel has at it core "the reconciliation of ALL things" - And even the most "clear" passages "against" this perspective (not ironically from highly symbolic "apocryphal" book in the NT) come from the book of Revelation - where even there we have this promise: "Behold - I am making ALL things New!"
Blessings!
wayne
BTW - Here's an article I have written about annihilationism:
wordpress.com/post/sovereign-love.blog/3644
@@MrHwaynefair email sent
@@jeromemausling6324 Will reply soon - Thanks!
Scripture is given by inspiration of God. I could inspire someone to do something, but that doesn't mean it is going to be exactly according to my will.
Thanks for your comment, Mark. Just not exactly sure what your point is in the context of this video - could you clarify?
Thanks so much!
@@MrHwaynefair A lot would consider me a heretic for believing this, but I don't believe that everything in the bible is from God. For example: I don't believe that God commanded the Israelites to stone women that had gotten raped in the city because they didn't scream. I think inspiration is a push to do something, but not an absolute governance over what is done.
@@markderksen4130 thanks for the clarification - I too see inerrancy as indefensible, as did C.S. Lewis. I highly recommend his Reflections on the Psalms- It is where he gives the clearest explanation of his non-fundamentalist view of scripture which ultimately points us to the Word of God, Jesus Christ!
Thanks and blessings -
Wayne
@@MrHwaynefairThank you for responding to me about this. I'll definitely check it out!
That is not what the word inspire means in 2 Timothy. It's not saying God motivated it, or encouraged it. The Greek word being translated 'inspire' is theopneustos. It literally means God-breathed, or breathed out by God. Think about the word respire, as in respiration. For scripture to be inspired by God means that He put His Spirit (breath) into it. The idea of you inspiring someone to do something is not applicable or comparable to this.
The answer about Romans 9 rests in Romans 11
Spot on!
Read J. Preston Eby! Universal reconciliationalist. Excellent!
@@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575 : I don't think so... He was an early proponent of Christian Universalism in its latest manifestation in the US - and a close friend of Gary Amirault (TentMakers) before his passing...
Check this out if you're interested - a wonderful testimony of his transformation from the "traditional" view - to Historic Christian Universalism:
facebook.com/J-Preston-Eby-154198521293765/videos/238943056135389
Unfortunately I found that J Preston Eby's books were either out of print or very expensive when I checked several months ago.
Sounds good, I'll check it out! I also recommend 'Hope Beyond Hell' by Gerry Beauchemin
@@sonnymustarseed7034 'Heaven's Doors' by George Sarris is also great .
I totally get loving your enemies, but loving Democrats??? Do we really have to go that far?
🤣
I understand your point. However, you will find many more democrats who will agree with this man than you will Republicans. I live in the "bible belt" and have experienced this alot. There is a harlot house on nearly every corner in this part of the country and the parking lots are full on Sunday mornings.
@@jm1733 I get your point - I too live in God's country (Alabama) and Christian Universalism is not very well received...
Thanks JM!
LOL Love Donald Trump? Impossible.
Following along the line of the comments, evangelicalism is also proving itself to be the enemy of our own nation. Prominent evangelicals in politics, such as Mike Pence, and recently, Mike Johnson are betraying us based upon their Jewish eschatology which the evangelical church actively promotes.
Paul said that the law is spiritual and Paul followed Jesus and kept the law just as Jesus did. Flesh on the other hand is not nor can it be subject to the law of God, and this is why people feel as though three law is bondage.
I'm assuming you've read Paul's letter to the Galatians, but if so how can you possibly say this with a straight face? Paul clearly contrasts the Law with the Spirit. The Law was not opposed to the Spirit but was only intended as a temporary guardian for God's people until Christ came and received the promise of the Spirit (promised to Abraham and his seed, Christ) Looking back to the age of the Law Paul refers to it as a form of bondage compared to our new life in the Spirit.
grace... if it means anything... means all will and must be saved, or grace is not grace.
Not true. God’s divine wrath works according to His great love. To be willing to hate sin and create a Son to be the propitiation for our sin, yet still not excusing it, is a good God. We cannot create our own absolutes about God and then twist scripture to meet that standard. “God can’t be good if He does not save all.” What? Jesus died for all. That is universal. What is not universal is application. For God gave His only begotten Son, so that all who may believe in Him will have eternal life. Those who don’t know His voice (John 10) will be strangers. They run from Him. The reason faith is essential in our relationship with Christ is because of reconciliation. If my father abuses me, I can forgive him just as I forgive everyone else. But he can’t reconcile himself with me if he doesn’t have a change of heart and pursue me. That’s not how a right relationship works. Yes, he sinned, but a repentant heart can and will lead to right relationship because of the gospel message around grace. I’ll restate my point just to be clear, the blood of Jesus is universal, it is FOR ALL. But not all are reconciled to Him, because they do not believe and lack a repentant heart. God is so ready to give them one, but without faith, the Holy Spirit cannot make its home in us. “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:9-13. “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.” 1 John 1:5-7.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perspective.
No one who understands Historic Christian Universalism would ever claim that anyone who is saved does so apart from faith and repentance. The demand for this is clear and we cannot devolve personal salvation into "cheap grace".
But in the dialectic tension between personal and universal salvation we, at the same time, cannot let go, ignore or downplay the plain and simple promises of Scripture that "our Saviour God intends that all will be saved" (1 Tim. 2:3-4). Numerous passages point us in this direction - and we (who believe this) exult in the utter, unilateral victory or our God, "the Savior of everyone" (1 Tim. 4:10-11). For us the final promise of Romans 5 is breath taking, "where sin abounded, grace doth much more abound!". (How can anyone read the entirety of Romans 5 and not get some glimmer of the promise of universal reconciliation?!)
The same Gospel you quote from (John) to disprove Historic Christian Universalism (and that we must "twist scripture" to arrive at our conclusions) also says, "And I when I am lifted up will draw ALL men to myself" (12:32) - and, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (1:29). Jesus was not sent to condemn the world - but to save it (3:17). Jesus, the Logos (Word) of God will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent: the salvation of the Cosmos. Isaiah 55 is very is instructive here: God's Word (which ultimately IS Christ) will not return to Him void - but will fully accomplish His purpose! (55:11)
And this is not a violation of "free will" rightly understood. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free" (Gal.5:1) - and this greatest of freedoms is given so that we may freely bow our knees before our King - and freely confess (swear allegiance) that "Jesus is Lord"! And the promise of Scripture that Paul repeats twice (Rom.14:11 & Phlp.2:10) is that "Every knee will bow - and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". Two things are clear and simple: every tongue will confess 'Jesus is Lord!' - AND, if we confess 'Jesus is Lord' we will be saved! (Romans 10:9)
So, the demand for and requirement of repentance and faith are real - non-negotiable. But equally real and non-negotiable are the promises that God will get what He wants in the end: "the reconciliation of all things"! (Col.1:20)
Thanks - and God richly bless you!
@@MrHwaynefair thank you for you response, you make very solid points, however I still personally struggle greatly with passages like Matthew 25 and John 1, or whenever I read Romans. Philippians 2:5-11 are verses very dear to my heart, btw, as it lead me out of a false gospel and saved me from the darkness. I will never object to grace being an offer for all, but like all gifts, grace can be actively rejected. Jesus didn’t come to judge when on the earth, but in Matthew 25, Jesus prophesies that He is going to be the one separating us on judgement day. Jesus preached heaven and hell so often, calling all to repentance. That it is the righteous become children of God and they will be the ones to inherit eternal life. “Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” Galatians 3:7-9. The context of Galatians 3, as you may know, reflects on how lawless people cannot be made righteous through the law, but by faith just as Abraham had faith. Mormonism practices ordinances, so do JWs, Hindus who practice worshipping other gods offer sacrifices, faith in things apart from Jesus results in works for a false god. That’s not what Paul considers righteous, and neither does Jesus in John 1 or John 6. I do wanna believe in what you say if it is true, but scripture doesn’t seem to affirm it, so I struggle greatly with the idea that application is universal. I will agree that Jesus died for all, and His will is for all to bow down before Him. Will everyone bow down? From what I can tell, it doesn’t seem so. Im not concerned with picking out who looks like they’re going to hell or not, however, I just use this as God’s great push to evangelize and make Him known, for His glory! Amen! Thanks again, friend!
@@WontonDisciple Thanks so much for your reply - I so appreciate the spirit in which it was offered. Just want to acknowledge I have seen it - and will follow up as soon as possible in response to some of the specifics you have raised...
Blessing to you my friend!
@Wonton Disciple I have spent hours musing over your excellent questions and objections (and written (so far) 6 pages of responses/recommendations).
I will just start (for now) with the "struggle" that Matthew 25 (and specifically the crux of the mistranslation, "eternal punishment") presents to you (as it should!)...
In some respects THE single and most critical word in this entire debate is the Greek word “aionios”, [mis]translated as “eternal”. As even the transliteration reveals, the root meaning of the English word which derives from the Greek: "eon" = a LONG period of time - but NOT "eternal". Just look the word up in either Strong’s or Young’s concordances: the root meaning is "age" (e.g. as in "ice age").
This is a simple, indisputable FACT. And if the Church would accept the Truth of this - EVERYTHING IN THIS DEBATE WOULD CHANGE…
The Hebrew counter-part to this is the word "olam" - e.g. see Jonah (chapter 2) in the belly of the great fish: "6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in **forever**. But you, Lord my God, brought my life up from the pit." Obviously Jonah did not stay in the fish eternally!
There are many, many books that address this critical issue - as well as many articles one can read via Google, so I will not re-invent the wheel here.
*But I cannot over-emphasize: everything hinges on the correct translation (or mistranslation) of this little word, aion/aionios!*
Here are two excellent resources:
tentmaker.org/books/PowerOfLifeAndDeathInAGreekFourLetterWord.html
I *HIGHLY* recommend that you download this free book (as a PDF) and just read 10 pages that could change your life (pages 21-31)
tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
If you are interested in more of my responses to your concerns - please respond to this 'comment' - then I will share further concerning the issue of "free will" as it relates to your statement: "like all gifts, grace can be actively rejected".
God bless and guide you as you continue in your pursuit of the Truth!
"To Him is the glory, and the power -- to the ages and the ages! Amen."
sovereign-love.blog/
It is such a difficult thing to watch someone explain what you think is impossible for someone to actually believe after they have been in the Christian faith for so long. How can you come to this conclusion. It is really hard and almost impossible to study the Bible and come to a clear conclusion on everything. There is always a point where you must trust those who are leading you that what they are teaching is correct. The one thing that I can say is that to defend the Bible means getting into it more and more and that has been good for me.
Universalism? How can you believe that? I know the Calvinist doctrines and see some of the dangers that can stem from it. But a few weeks ago in my study of Ephesians 1, I talked to a pastor about and he warned me that some people will come to the conclusion that it teaches universalism. That is just an idea until you are actually confronted with the argument for it.
You both seem like very compassionate and loving men as I am, but this seems strange to me. I have had my brain filled to the brim lately with many different things and now I have to try and sort this out too.
Dave - I deeply and experientially empathize with what you are going through as you wrestle with this.
I pray - above ALL things - that you come to a place of peace (shalom) and confidence in the Love of Christ - a love that surpasses all knowledge. (In the end it does not matter to me that you agree with me on the matter of universal salvation - but that you know HIM better)
I pray that you “let God be true - and every man a liar” Rom.3:4 (and, YES - that most emphatically includes a man by the name of Wayne Fair!)
I pray that you will hear Jesus’ words for all they are worth (and all they imply), “Judge for yourselves what is right”! Luke 12:57
Paul's words apply here as well:
“Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.” Romans 14:5
It is worthy to meditate on the implications of Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians (3:14-20):
Even with the epistles he had written - he is saying that there is something about Christ that he (Paul) cannot express in writing - and can only be received by something of a direct revelation. And of ALL the things that are TRUE about Christ (e.g. things that could be stated propositionally in the way of systematic theology) - the ONE thing he focuses on is the full dimensions (height, depth, breadth) of the LOVE of Christ - that *surpasses knowledge!* Then he goes on to say that (in the context of that LOVE) God is able to do *“infinitely more than all we can ask or imagine”* …
Dave - as you ponder “How can you come to this conclusion…” and “How can you believe that?”
I pray you let these verses (above) from Ephesians 3 factor heavily into your considerations…
Calvinism ultimately appeals to the “mystery” of God’s secret and (as Calvin himself called it) “horrible decree”.
It ALL boils down to this: is God REALLY LOVE? - and, is this “Love” *really* LOVE?
Again - I bring to your attention this painful fact: Calvin NEVER acknowledges or quotes scripture on this fundamental attribute (indeed, essence) - i.e. He NEVER once makes mention of this in his greatest work, The Institutes of Christian Religion. Was this a mere oversight - or does it reveal something deep and troubling about the “theology” of Calvinism?
And this had practical consequences as well: How could Calvin have participated (as he undoubtedly did) in the murder of Servetus www.amazon.com/Calvin-Murder-Servetus-Stanford-Rives/dp/1439208689?
If there is one passage of scripture (and there are MANY that have a bearing on this) I would encourage you to wrestle with (relative to this issue) it would be Romans 5.
Take it at face value - try not to bring Calvinist presuppositions to the text - let it simply say what it says.
For me it inevitably leads to a vision of Christ as the “last Adam” - who will have no less influence than the first - such that in the end one can truly say, “where sin abounded - grace did MUCH MORE abound!”
Everything stands or fall on this one verse:
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.” Rom.5:18
This was anticipated in chapter 3 - where we have a sentence that is rarely read in full because of its shocking statement of fact:
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” Rom.3:23-24
NONE of this does away with a proper understanding of election. Our Sovereign God of Love really does elect “some” over against the rest - but He does this for a larger purpose: through their influence (the firstfruits) to bring those who are NOT of "the elect" back into right relationship with the Father.
ALL of this attests to “the manifold Wisdom of God” - that the God who IS Love works throughout human history to bring about His purposes so clearly stated in Ephesians and Colossians:
The recapitulation of ALL things
The reconciliation of ALL things
God will settle for no less than the FULL recovery and redemption of Creation! (Colossians 1)
Now that - for me - is a vision that surpasses my knowledge and imagination! And yet - is intuitively resonant with the deepest longings of my heart - i.e. it just seems truly “right” and just that God would use all within His sovereign power to reclaim every soul that bears His image (and that image was NOT destroyed, as Calvin claimed) - This is all grounded in the Fatherhood of God over ALL of humanity.
Seriously reflect on Paul’s shocking words to pagan Athenians,
“24The God who created the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all life and breath and all things. 26And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands and territories. 27 This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though *He is not far from each one of us.* 28 *For in Him we live and move and exist* [that is, in Him we actually have our being], as even some of your own poets have said, *For we also are His children* 29 So then, being God’s children…” -Acts 17 - Amplified version
What Father would punish His children for all eternity?
The comparison is made legitimate by Christ’s own words, “If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” Matt.7:11
(of decisive importance here is the meaning of the Greek word “aionios” - I invite you to read and ponder this scholarly consideration of the meaning of that word used, e.g. in Matt.25 -
biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/summary-terms-for-eternity-aionios-and-aidios-in-classical-and-christian-texts/ )
“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and decisions and how unfathomable and untraceable are His ways!” - Rom.11:33-36
Yes - His ways are not our ways - but take note of what Paul alludes to here in Romans 11:
8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Please note that Isaiah’s words are not meant to lead us toward some obscure and mysterious idea of God’s “secret” thoughts and ways (or "decrees") - NO: his thoughts and ways result in budding, flourishing - seed for the sower and bread for the eater!
And then there is this:
What is the ultimate “Word” that Isaiah refer to? It can be nothing less than “the Logos”, Jesus Christ - the creator and redeemer of “all things”!
Why did Jesus - THE WORD - come?
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” John 3:17 THAT Word above ALL other words will NOT return to Him void!
Here again is that “manifold wisdom”! And while it outstrips our knowledge and imagination - we can know that *Love IS LOVE* - without equivocation!
What does LOVE look like?
patient
kind
not self-seeking
not easily angered
keeps no record of wrongs
always protects
always trusts
always hopes
always perseveres
*Love never fails*
Some would argue Paul is describing HUMAN love and relationships
But can the God who IS LOVE be anything LESS than this? No - God - as LOVE - is MORE - infinitely MORE!
I still look forward to your 2 hour video!
Blessings on You and Yours, Dave!
In His Love -
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair
I think that the points you make need further study but I immediately see some problems and contradictions.
1. You urge me to come to Christ and to have peace and confidence in the love of Christ. That is the call to all of mankind. It does not seem necessary in your understanding of Gods universal grace to do that at all. Why bother living that way and striving to be obedient?
Calvinism is accused of being "deterministic" and therefore is 'fatalistic" I think that is so backwards. If God is going to save everyone in the end then their "fate" is sealed. Why follow Christ?
In the Calvinist system we are called to trust and put our faith in Christ. A real choice, not a predetermined choice from a temporal view. From an eternal view we then see Gods mercy and love in His character to bring undeserving creatures to Himself.
2. I never fully understood J. MacArthur saying that Gods sovereignty and mans responsibly is in many verses right beside each other. The more I read, the more I see that. If I embrace a universalism as you do, then there no longer exists any responsibility at all for us. What we do has no ultimate meaning at all.
3. The Biblical references to hell and punishment become completely meaningless if universalism is true. I think faith is as simple as saying "Amen" to the words we read and bow in complete awe at the power and might as the God of the Bible is revealed to us.
A short personal point - I just graduated from a Biblical Counselling coarse and I am enrolled in the second year to deal with more serious issues and to get alot of practical experience. What I learned this year was basically on the level of a university coarse that was alot of work. I learned so much. Next year will be the same. The point of doing this for me is the ability to have real answers for people and to bring to them the hope we have in trusting in Christ.
The presence of evil and the degree of control that it has in this world, in a very real way, is not explained by a God who is all about love and caring for us only. If that were true them God is not able to control evil since He watches his creation suffer. I need to believe in a God who is able and is in complete control. Then and only then can we look to Him in faith and complete trust.
The utopian god you desire is not the God revealed in scripture. There are many things that all sinful and temporal creatures get wrong. That can include some of the teachings that Calvinists have written over the centuries. That is why we go back into scripture to always use that light to shine truth on what we are believing.
The doctrine of Gods wrath and punishment has to be the most difficult to embrace. But we must. I believe it is taught in the Bible.
Dave - I will be more brief than usual - and just answer your first question (for now):
“Why bother living that way and striving to be obedient?”
Because you (or anyone else who takes this attitude) will go to hell if you do not “bother” to genuinely repent! And in this truly Biblical notion of “Gehenna” some will be “beaten with many stripes” - others “with few” (Luke 12:47-48)- in this hell “you will not get out until you pay the last penny” (Matt.5:26).
If a threat of punishment is what we need to be motivated to love and obey God - it makes me wonder if we are serving Him from the proper place of heart... God - in the beauty and wonder of Who and What He is should create a burning love in our hearts for Him that will motivate us passionately to live for Him and share the GOOD NEWS of His Love gladly with every opportunity that comes our way!
And - for example, will the threat of holding someone's hand on a hot stove-eye for 5 years (instead of eternity) be something they would simply dismiss as of no real concern? "Hell" is VERY REAL - but it is for pruning (kolasis is the word used by Jesus in Matthew 25 - deriving from the Greek word for "pruning" - i.e. a severe measure intended to ultimately bring about fruitfulness - not mere destruction - and aionios derives from the Greek word for "age" - hence as many Fathers saw it - and age of restorative punishment - NOT simply "eternal punishment")
I haven’t made this "Gospel" up, Dave - this is what was believed by many (it could be strongly argued, most) Christians (their “theology” being represented in the writings of the *early* Church Fathers) for the first 300 years of Church History...
But Calvinists will not (as a rule) encourage you to read the early Church Fathers. Both Luther and Calvin almost exclusively quoted from Augustine - he was obviously their favorite - and it was Augustine who first gave us the essence of what we call “Calvinism”…
Dr. Ken Wilson (a surgeon) decided to get his PhD in theology - and did so at Oxford. His entire thesis was to dig into Augustine and discover when and how he arrived at his Calvinistic views.
*I challenge you to watch this:*
Was Augustine the first to introduce "CALVINISM" into the Church?
ruclips.net/video/BnOMORGM2Qw/видео.html
He proves convincingly that Augustine derives his “Calvinism” far more from the gnostic sect of Manicheanism than he does directly from Scripture. But you will have to decide for yourself....
Also - I have not made up the many passages (especially in Paul) that promise Universal Reconciliation (e.g. Colossians 1) - I did not invent “[God is] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9) - nor did I make up this “utopian” promise: “3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (1Tim.2:4) - and it was Paul - not me - that said, “For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of *ALL* men, especially of those who believe.” (1Tim.4:10)
We are talking about the *Father* here Dave - again, as Acts 17 affirms, “we are all His children” - How do we know this? We are ALL “made in his image - after his likeness” (see. Gen5:3)
Calvinism ultimately fails on two fundamental issues:
1.to face the essence of God as LOVE - which can *never* be divorced from His Justice and Holiness…
2.to face that our created nature as human beings is that we remain images of God!
("total depravity" is NOT the final word about our created nature - or our worth and value to God!)
Yes that image has been marred and defaced by sin - by our fallenness - but it has not and cannot be removed - anymore than the prodigal son could remove the DNA of his father….
What defines us is NOT fundamentally our “sinful nature” - but our created nature, being made in the image of Him in whom “we live and move and have our being”
This is why Paul consistently speaks of the RENEWAL of that image - even its “renovation”
Peter Sterry - one of the 16th century Westminster Divines (and a Christian Universalist) - wrote so beautifully of this:
"Dear Soul, whoever, whatever thou art, thou art the Offspring
of God. St. Paul citeth this from a Poet, confirmeth it by a
Divine Testimony, applyeth it Universally to all, maketh it the
ground of Evangelical Truths, and Loves; Acts 17. 28. As some
of your own Poets have said; We are his Off-spring.
St. Paul hath something very like this, Ephes. 3. 9. The Gospel
was hid in God from the Foundation of the World, who made
all things by Jesus Christ.
God had the love of the Gospel in his
Heart, and sowed it as a secret Seed in the Foundations of the
whole Creation, when he made all things by Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the Seed of Nature, as well as of Grace, and so lieth hid in the Bosom of every Creature, as the true Pearl in the Field.
That Divine Image, of which we spake before, was the similitude only, the Mother of Pearl; This is the Substance, the Pearl itself. In the Off-spring of God is the Seed of God. Where the Seed of God is, there is God himself in the Vertue, Power, and fulness of his Divine Nature. For so the Seed
of every Plant hath that Plant Virtually, and Spiritually in it.
Be now no more unbelieving; but believe. Believe the love, which
God hath to thee. Believe, that all the Inclinations of the Divine
Will are to thee; that the Eye, and heart of God are turned toward
thee in every place, fixt upon thee with all that intention, and force
of Sweetness in the Divine Nature. For why?
He is drawn irresistibly to his own Seed, his own Son, his own self in
thee. Thou art his Off-spring."
God Bless you, Dave!
@@MrHwaynefair
You believe in a type of purgatory? or maybe that hell is a timeout?
I believe that God Himself is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29)
I believe that God's fire is a "refiners fire" (Mal.3:2)
I believe we will ALL be "salted with fire" (Mark 9:49)
I believe our works of flesh will be burned up - and yet we "will be saved, but only as through fire" 1 Cor.3:13-15) (and, yes - I know the context - but isn't it possibly instructive as to the meaning of "fire" generally in the judgments of God?)
I believe that as the ancient creed clearly states, "He descended into hell"
And - as Peter mysteriously alludes to - His purpose was to declare the Gospel - and to save those whose flesh had been destroyed: "After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits... For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does"
( *If ANYONE attempts to *explain this passage away* - or claims they understand it's implications *fully* - they are sorely deceived* )
Paul alludes to the mystery of this in Romans 14:9
"For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living." "God is the God of the living, not the dead, because all people are alive to him." (Luke 20:38)
I believe that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [i.e. the power of God in His elect Church]" (Matt.16:20)
I believe that Jesus is the Victor - the conqueror of death and hell (Rev.1:18) - He holds the keys to them both...
And I believe that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and swear allegiance to our Victorious Lord - including those "under the earth":
"10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
*to the glory of God the Father* ." Phlp.2:10-11
I also believe - in fact I know - that in the book of Acts hell is NEVER mentioned in any of the Apostolic sermons - and that Paul never mentions it as well (at least by the name, "hell")
As I think I have already suggested - if you are going to ponder this issue to its depths - you must come to terms with this term: aionios - The Greek definition according to BibleHub:
"age-long, and therefore: practically *[!]* eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Here are two excellent resources to help you better understand the attested meaning of aionios - even if you never agree:
ruclips.net/video/sdNPJ4ffbOM/видео.html
biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/summary-terms-for-eternity-aionios-and-aidios-in-classical-and-christian-texts/
Blessings Dave!
-wayne
Why to people use titles... What is Christian Universalism and why should one use that term when referring to themselves or their theology. What is wrong with just calling yourself a Christian. That has always been an issue with me. If you are not a Calvinist, you are an Armeninian. Whenever someone says that, my ears immediately perk up. SMH
For the same reason we (and you) use words/phrases not found strictly in Scripture- e.g. “once saved always saved” - It’s just a way to communicate distinctives - to succinctly sum up ideas (beliefs).
BTW- I am neither A Calvinist nor an Armenian. I seek to acknowledge what is True in each perspective: the Love of God for all from Arminianism and the Sovereignty of God from Calvinism…
I hear you. I'm a confident Universalist but think we should refuse to refer to ourselves with any label that separates us from the rest of the body of Christ.
Let's look at this Biblically, shall we?
1Timothy 2:3-4 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires ALL* men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (NASB)
1Timothy 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL* men, especially of believers."
So... we know it is God's desire (ie will) to save ALL* men. Let's look at more Scripture...
Roman's 10:9-13 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed'. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of ALL*, abounding in riches for ALL* who call on Him; for 'whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved'. " (NASB)
Now, confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord results in salvation... and everyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord will be saved. Good to know. Now let's turn to Philippians 2:9-11...
"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him [Jesus], and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY* knee will bow, of those who are in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and that EVERY* tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God The Father."
Last I checked... every means EVERY* and all means ALL*. Now, I know there will be still be "nay sayers"... so let's go to the famous Messianic prophecy Jesus (The Holy Spirit) uttered through king David in Psalms 22, upon the cross...
Psalm 22:29 "ALL* the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, ALL* those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, even he who cannot keep his soul alive." (NASB)
Again... all still means ALL*, and every still means EVERY*. So... someone please tell me, or anyone else for that matter,, that my God is not mighty to save. The Father will paint the Scriptures for us if we listen close.
Only those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.
Amen! “Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”!
Amen, eachbin his own order, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
@@MrHwaynefair And will do so gladly and without compulsion!
God has ages (e.g., Eph. 2:7) and *ages of ages* to work with. Remember that what is written of in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes place *after* what is written of in the Book of Revelation. Man's will is no match for God's will. Only God is Sovereign.
@@larrymiller4 amen...mans will to resist is NOT greater than Gods will to redeem...God changed Sauls heart to Paul n He can do the same with ALL !
13:04 bookmark
This doesn’t sound like good news?
Is your comment a statement or a question?
Thanks!
This man has strayed too far.
Even though the early church didn't have a copy of the scriptures available to every believer (It would have been impossible to do so!), the mind and teaching of the church was still formed and guided by them.
The scriptures are the infallible, trustworthy and authoritative written Word of God, which testify to the eternal, living Word of God - Jesus Christ.
Once you give this up you are liable to believe anything.
Do you want to engage in a good faith discussion about this? Believing in the reconciliation of all things is not just believing in "anything" - It is rooted firmly in Scripture.
Keep in mind that even the Pharisees had a very high value and regard for the Scriptures - but they STILL missed the ultimate and final Word: Jesus the Christ: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."
@@MrHwaynefair Thanks for your reply.
I'm not saying to believe in a final restoration is to believe "anything". I would love to be such a proponent, though am not there at this time.
What I am suggesting is that, once divorced from the infallible written Word, we also are liable to divorce ourselves from the Jesus of Scripture and create him in our own image.
I think this man has walked right up to the edge of this dangerous cliff.
Thanks for your reply, James!
If you are willing and have time I would love for you to be specific as to exactly where he has edged up to this danger you speak of... or just as best you can recall...
I have embraced Historic Christian Universalism for 15+ years - and I would not and could not believe it to be true apart from substantial support in Scripture.
Here is a list (see link below) of some of the passages that point us in the direction of God's ultimate plan and purpose -
To be clear: This perspective does NOT deny the reality of judgment and hell - but it does deny that the God who IS Love (and who loves his enemies) will punish His own offspring for all eternity... (and this involves a serious reconsideration of the meaning of the word "aionios" often simply translated "eternal".... more later)
We can get into details as our conversation continues - I am here for this as long as you want to discuss it in good faith - even if we in the end finally agree to disagree...
Thanks and Blessings!
wayne
waynefair.substack.com/p/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love
@@MrHwaynefair Thanks, Wayne. I don't have the time to get into it at length right now, but would love to do so at another time. Thanks for the invitation!
About this fellow that you were interviewing, I don't want to be too critical of him, since it was only a brief interaction regarding the scriptures.
But, it seemed to me that you also were feeling a little uncomfortable with where he was going, and did give him some mild push back. But, that wasn't why you had him on, and I understand that.
I may have! It's been a while since the interview -I will have to go back and rewatch...
Thanks again, James - I look forward to resuming this whenever you have the time!
Yours in His Love -
wayne
I was with you right up until you said that you could love Democrats.
🤣