You take the good parts of Arminianism and keep them, throw out the bad parts. Take the good parts of Calvinism and throw out the bad parts. Put the good parts of Arminianism (God loves all and wants all saved) together with the good parts of Calvinism (God is sovereign and is able to save all) and you end up with Universal Reconciliation.
I always have this feeling that if I could just sit down with someone for long enough and explain things to them for long enough, that I can bring them into seeing the truth by reasoning with them and cause them to repent of many lies they are under. Of course God allows men to be blinded by Satan and this is not always going to work and some people deliberately refuse to hear the truth because it forces them to submit to God if they receive it openly and they want to be their own God etc. In any case, this general idea of if I could only just sit down with someone I can persuade them is there in me. And so if you consider God having all of eternity to persuade men, no man can stand up to that persistence of persuasion and refuse to receive the truth neverendingly. Even the most stubborn would surrender to the truth eventually. Not to mention God is able to reveal or open someone's mind to revelation, just downloading a knowing of some sort right into somebody and God can communicate in visions and stories and all manner of ways. To suggest that God cannot convert someone to the truth to me is absurd. And provided He is willing, then it will happen. Not to mention the profound impact His presence alone and the glory of His power has on any who behold it. And to have one's book read aloud of all the harm they did and who that hurt presumably going through each work one by one. How horrifying and how effective that alone would be to humble someone.
@@robbchristopher158 of course not, it says everyone will be reconciled to God not most will be annihilated out of existence. He loves them and can save them so he will save them all.
An excellent conversation that since my embrace of Christianity, validates my forty year journey from Protestant Fundamentalism to Christ centred Ecumenism. Orthodoxy with its Biblical understanding of Apokatastasis a magnificent liberating and thus beautiful Gospel. Salvation by following Jesus in ourselves in this Age. And where we had fallen short of bearing God's image restoration by God by truth's fire in the Age to come. Yes there will be the anguish and the excruciating pain(fire) of regret, of having taken in vain God's name of I AM in ourselves. And by this I mean God's image. Love of God in ALL, love of self, that is our true self Christ in us, and lastly love of others in who also Christ dwells... known to them (Christianity) or not.❤️
This is an informative and beautiful discussion. I'd like to fill in the gap on the resurrection conversation. The dead from Adam to those who've died before Christ preached to them, were in sheol or hades awaiting the resurrection that took place at the Parousia. Understanding Christ's fulfillment of the Law of Moses; the prophets and psalms connects deeply as Christ reconciling all mankind. The Kingdom og God was ushered in some two thousand years ago after the great tribulation and fedtruction of apostate Israel and the OT sacrificial system. All has been fulfilled and Christ has reconciled all. I studied the reconcilation for years before being shown fulfilled eschatology. It's been a blessing.
To me it’s pure logic, that a loving God can’t possibly be a sadistic God as well, deviding humans into two groups, sheeps and goats. I’m a Protestant, former Catholic and er believe God may “burn” evilness and sins away from any man and he will be left purified for ever and enter in to eternity. For me it’s such a relief to believe in this. No longer worries and sadness about the evil and wether we are saved or not.
1 Timothy 4:10 King James Version 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of "all" men, specially of those that believe.
@@williamoarlock8634 what are Christ sheep? God does love everyone equally but just like a parent you'd be disappointed if you saw one of your children doing something that was not good for them. That doesn't mean you love them less It just means you love them so much that you wish they wouldn't do stuff that hurt themselves. And as we saw with Jesus he went after the ones that were lost and brokenhearted, and in the eyes of man who are great sinners because he hung out with the riffraff. Or like the parable of the prodigal son, The one who left and squandered everything given to them yet when they came back to the father he threw him a huge party. Does that sound like an unloving God?
Universalism from a philosophical perspective makes a lot of sense. God is maximally good ergo maximally loving, which makes him more loving than anyone else. This would mean that if there's a non-God person who would forgive everyone, then God must be more loving than that person. The objections to philosophical perspectives create an interesting set of questions. For example, "God mustn't allow repentance for the damned because of his Justice" raises questions about God's justice, such as "is his justice separate from his love",if yes it then raises the question "does God's sense of justice supersede his mercy" if yes we then get a logical issue, and if we are to agree God cannot defy logic, then God would not be maximally loving. But let's say the answer to the first question is no, and the response is God's Love creates his justice, well we'd want to then establish why it's more loving and therefore just, to deny repentance to the damned. I'm not universalist but I do find it interesting, hopefully we can all move past ETC and get the debates about Universalism vs annihilation
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur. This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy. "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
@@micahhenley589 If by hell you are referring to literal eternal literal neverending torment, no, that is not loving to submit someone to that nor is is glorious. That is a mischaracterization of the God of the Bible. If that were true, either God never loved that person or stopped loving that person. But that is not a expression of love for a person in any way. Also, if you foreknew this plan for this person, to suggest you ever loved this person while knowing you'd stop loving this person to this degree, it is unlikely and hard to claim you loved that person at all to begin with.
@@artbyrobot1 The fact that God allows sinners to live for more than a second demonstrates His great love, mercy, and grace. Never forget that my brother. "But because of His great love for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5
@@micahhenley589 You say "The fact that God allows sinners to live for more than a second demonstrates His great love, mercy, and grace" --- I disagree. By that same logic, the fact that Satan doesn't immediately kill everyone who God is not actively protecting proves Satan's love, mercy, and grace as well. And the fact that homosexuals do not kill everyone who disagrees with them instantly proves their love, mercy and grace. This is illogical to claim. It only proves God is not a complete lunatic. That you think God should kill everyone in one second if they ever sin and taht would be best is of greater concern. You are just parroting some point that is often parroted in evangelical Christianity but have failed to consider how foolish it really is.
@@artbyrobot1 Ok, so let me ask you this question: If the LORD decided to destroy every sinner on earth would you approve of His actions or would you disapprove of Him. Will a mere human condemn the perfect Creator?
One argument an annihilationist would make for why God would bring back the wicked dead instead of just leaving them dead is that God is just. People need their day in court. It would be unjust of Him to not let them stand on judgement day.
You gotta get David Bentley Hart on go talk about this... Although it's possible he is sick of talking about it, he speaks from the heart on these issues, and I suspect he does not like the flack he gets and can only handle it for a time before he feels compelled to move on. No harm reaching out though!
The thing that sticks with me in my mind is that I don't think that God would create someone while fully knowing in advance that that person would eventually be separated from him forever. I don't think that if most of his own offspring would be facing the prospect of unending torment or even endless death that he would have followed through with it from the start. This seems like common sense if I'm to imagine that God loves and truly cares for anything he has created. For me, that would make him out to be worse than the worst of anyone that has ever lived or will live.
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur. This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy. "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
@@micahhenley589 I don't agree. I would never do that to my own children, nor do I at all believe that God will do that to his (as if we're somehow kinder and more loving than God Himself. Secondly, I'm not Trinitarian. My understanding is that Jesus Christ is the son of God: "For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (John 3:17) . The lake of fire, the second death is figurative, not literal fire. God is going to abolish death (put an end to it). This is ALL DEATH, including the lake of fire. The word, hell is a mistranslated word for sheol (Hebrew for grave) and hades (Greek for grave/death). Jesus Christ saved us from DEATH. Again, this includes every aspect of DEATH (including the lake of fire, the second DEATH)! Jesus Christ is THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD! This is EVERYONE! "Now this is the will of Him Who sends Me, that all which He has given to Me, of it I should be losing nothing, but I shall be raising it in the last day." (John 6:39 - CLNT) ..."for of that which fills Him we all obtained, and grace for grace." (John 1:16) The definition and meaning of grace is unmerited favor, something we didn't merit !(do as a work or qualify for, or earn ourselves). I understand way more about tradition than you realize. I was in it for years. I'd suggest looking at this if you can: ocoy.org/original-christianity/150-reasons-for-believing-in-the-final-salvation-of-all-mankind/ I don't mind talking about this stuff but to be honest, if just looked up these central topics, you'd find a whole lot more that could address your objections than I ever could in a lifetime. I'm not here to win proof text exchanges or debates. The salvation of all is my confident hope. I believe Jesus Christ is the successful and complete savior of the whole world. We didn't ask for it. That's what GRACE is!!!! Peace:)
@@jasonegeland1446 Well as long as you accept that Jesus Christ alone is Lord and savior then you are good. We may disagree on secondary issues but the main issue is the Son of Man. Who is He? What did He do and say? What was His mission and goals? These questions are of most importance. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except though Me." John 14:6 "I am the Living One. I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." Revelation 1:18
@@micahhenley589 It has nothing to do with acceptance. If you pull a drowning man out of the ocean, you saved him. He didn't ask you to do it. There's nothing he was otherwise required to do to earn it. This is what Christ did for everyone, including Hitler, hence grace and the Savior of the world.
Universalism to include all types of sinner,even the most vile, in my opinion, almost has to include the doctrine of reincarnation to make it rationally possible. It,for me, must also include a picture of Jesus loving Father as divine,creative,eternal Consciousness not the vain,vicious,vindictive Yahweh of the Old Testament. I have been following the work of Paul Wallis from Australia,and for me ,he provides the most logical answers my own Christian faith needs.
The third and in my opinion medium and balanced and Biblical view is Annihilationism. God is a consuming fire, not a tormenting fire. People do need to be 'saved' it is not a defacto position. We used to debate Once Saved Always Saved, but if universalism is true it's not an issue. I believe the biblical contrasts from Gen to Rev are life and death. Life to believers and death to unbelievers. Check out Rethinking Hell who have just put out some live videos critiquing Andrew's book.
Faith is a gift from God not something we can gain on our own effort. Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us. Romans 12:3 NLT
Death means- -Dying -Having died -Being dead Billions of dead people who God remembers and whose spirits have gone back to God, means that death is never abolished.
The people I said this type of argument to said that they aren't dead if they are deleted therefore death is defeated as long as the person leaves existence to the point that even any memory of them is also deleted or something. Weird counterargument. Don't buy it.
Wrong: "For to be carnally minded is death". You are comitting the fallacy of defining death in your terms, this is type of idolatry. Also "Christ has abolished death" and "the last enemy to be Katargeo is death", the word Katargeo is to release completely as in"if her husband dies, she is Katargeo(released) from the Law". "Just as by the disobedince of one death came TO ALL, SO ALSO, by the obedience of one THE FREEGIFT OF LIFE CAME TO ALL" Rom5:18 If you profess Christ has not abolished death you are a heretic, to be honest.
It's hard to imagine an earthly death that Hitler could die that would be sufficiently equivalent as a consequence in relation to the deaths of the millions he was essentially responsible for killing. I'm not sure that Molinist response quite works. Though I agree the general ressurection is little bit of a soft spot for annihilationism. I'd say the best reason as to why God raises all is to judge. Judgement requires an equal standpoint for all being judged which implies that all will be raised.. I wonder if one could argue in response that ressurection entails a ressurected body which entails its incorruptibility?
I believe that someone like Corrie Ten Boom had a living, real understanding of how to forgive our enemies and pray for them to be reconciled to God. Everyone gets this opportunity...now or later.
Haven't read the book but so far in the conversation it seems to me the argument of universalism even when generously considered biblically, is a theological overreach. The more straightforward reading of the available data strongly suggests that there will be those that are 'lost'. One can theologically speculate based on some passages, but on balance it's just difficult to frame the biblical picture under universalism.
But the woman who lost the coin kept looking for it until she found it. The shepherd left the 99 sheep and found the one who was lost. So lost might not mean forever lost. In Luke chapter 9 James and John wanted to command fire to come down on a Samaritan village and consume them because they rejected them. But Jesus rebuked them, vs 55, “You do not know the Spirit you are of! For the Son of Man did not come to destroy mens lives but to save them” and there is another verse that says The Son of Man came to seek and save that which is lost. So yeah, the Bible talks about the lost, but Jesus will save the lost. Or maybe has already saved them before the foundations of the world and they just don’t have any awareness of it yet.
@@dianebice9103I'm familiar with the passages you quote and alluded to, but to make a theological conclusion, i.e., universalism, from such passages is an overreach IMO. Biblical eschatology strongly suggests that there will be a great divide between 'sheep and goats' in the last day (as Jesus said in Matthew 25, but let me be quick to add that I don't hold to the traditional ECT doctrineof hell, I lean towards conditionalism). Umiversalism for remains in the realm of a theological and philosophical speculation and not borne out of exegesis.
@@zgobermn6895 I see the sheep and goats not as faith believers and nonbelievers, but rather the compassionate and the hard hearted. But regardless, I think divine justice is about making things right again, making the crooked paths straight. It’s for our betterment, not our demise. I think judgment springs forth from his love.
@@zgobermn6895 YOu say that there will be a great divide between sheep and goats in the last day. By this, you infer that universalism denies this. That's false. Apokatastasis universalism upholds this. We uphold that the goats are denied entry by the narrow gate and enter into the afterlife by the broad gate and they go to lower Hades for 1k+ years until the 2nd resurrection of the dead and the Great White Throne judgement event. From there they are cast into the Lake of Fire where they are purged and refined by the refining fire of the presence of God and they are saved by submitting to Christ.
The truth is there are 2 gospels, 1 to israel and 1 to the nations through paul. The etymology of Paul's name comes from the greek word "pauo" (strong's greek 3973) which means "pause" God paused his work he was doing with Israel from acts to hebrews to work through Paul to bring the gospel to the nations. Paul's gospel tells us that Christ saved all humanity (not just believers) through His sacrifice on the cross. As in adam all are dying, as in Christ all will be made alive. There is judgment, only death is unconsciousness and only age long or an eon. The greek word aionion (the plural form of aion "age" or "eon" so correct translation would be "eons") was mistranslated in almost all of our English versions to eternal, everlasting (eonion life), world, and forever and ever (if it's already forever why would they have to add the and ever? Correct translation is "eons of the eons" when the body of Christ get there glory and Israel get there promise on earth) this was a trick by the adversary to try and cover the true success of the cross, the salvation of the world, starting with Chist the firstfruit, those Christ's in his presence; thereafter the consummation (completion of Christ becoming all in all) 1 Corinthians 15:21-28 Concordant Literal New Testament 21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. 22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) Also hell is a mistranslation, the three words translated hell are the Hebrew word sheol, along with the greek words gehenna and tartarus, all different meanings none of which are eternal torment. Sheol (hades in the greek) means the "abode of the dead" scripture tells us "the dead know nothing" sheol is described as sleep "nothingness" this is the resting place of all that passed, belivers and non believers until the snatching away ("rapture" for the body of Christ), then the great white throne, then later God becomes all in all. Gehenna (valley of hinnom) is a valley outside of Jerusalem where they would burn sewage and dead bodies (this was the word jesus used anytime they translated him saying hell in the bible, this was Christ talking to the israelites regarding their gospel while he was here on earth before he was glorified and revealed his salvation gospel to Paul on the road to Damascus, the fires of Gehenna will be used again during the millennium kingdom). Tartarus is where the devil the beast and the false prophet are tormented for 1,000 years during the millennium kingdom, there is no mention of humans being eternally tormented in a properly translated scripture.
I think I will stick with Yeshua words on the narrow path vs wide that leads to destruction, or the parable of the rich men in hell vs Lazarus in Abraham bosom. Yeshua wars is about lies like these in the last days! Young men repent it’s clearly written in the Bible not your book words!
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur. This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy. "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
nobody asked god to force them into existence, into a sinful body, into a sinful world, into a world with trillion IQ non human entities with the only hobby to make people sin. if universalism is not true, then, satan is right about god.
@@juicedgoose well said. it would be the most demonic deed ever done making even Hitler look like a saint by comparison. Nothing ever done under the sun could ever come even close to matching the utter evil of it.
@@juicedgoose God does not owe mercy to anyone. Anyone who receives mercy from God gets it as a free gift. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5? 1 Cor 15:20-24? 1 Tim 4:10? Colossians 1:19-20? Unbiblical can mean a lot of things, there are ideas in the Bible that are “unbiblical” like polygamy. I’m assuming you meant “the idea cannot be deduced from scripture” which is simply untrue. Whether you place emphasis on proof texts, general themes, philosophy, or church history universalism checks all of these boxes. Stating that something is unbiblical will not stop people from finding out that it is.
@@Landis_Grantyeah Satan is tricking a bunch of us into praying for the world, spreading the kingdom of God, and believing King Jesus will ultimately defeat Satan and rescue all under his sway! Yeah!! Satan really tricked us on this one 😅😂 Quick! Go scare and shame more people into following Jesus. It’s the only way to save them!!!
Andrew Hronich is in the new generation of those making a great case for Ultimate Reconciliation.
'Reconciliation' to a god that isn't there.
What a great interviewer; very insightful questions. Thank you!
Praise God for both of you! 😊❤️
I would say scripture is just so much clearer with universalism as the truth. The arguments I have heard against it just don't hold weight.
You take the good parts of Arminianism and keep them, throw out the bad parts. Take the good parts of Calvinism and throw out the bad parts. Put the good parts of Arminianism (God loves all and wants all saved) together with the good parts of Calvinism (God is sovereign and is able to save all) and you end up with Universal Reconciliation.
Why is there so many scriptures that contradict traditionalism.
Yes! Sovereign Love ❤️
Yes you take the good parts and leave out the bad because God is not bad it's very simple
Yep. Plus it makes the most sense… God actually wins total victory in the end
Wonderful interview! Looking forward to reading the book! God bless!
Thanks for the interview! I’m looking forward to reading the book this month
The book costs over £36 in paperback and £56 for hardback .
@@TheHumbuckerboy Books are expensive these days but it's probably worth it for this one.
"In making my enemy my friend, have I not defeated him?" Now that is an amazing statement.
I always have this feeling that if I could just sit down with someone for long enough and explain things to them for long enough, that I can bring them into seeing the truth by reasoning with them and cause them to repent of many lies they are under. Of course God allows men to be blinded by Satan and this is not always going to work and some people deliberately refuse to hear the truth because it forces them to submit to God if they receive it openly and they want to be their own God etc. In any case, this general idea of if I could only just sit down with someone I can persuade them is there in me. And so if you consider God having all of eternity to persuade men, no man can stand up to that persistence of persuasion and refuse to receive the truth neverendingly. Even the most stubborn would surrender to the truth eventually. Not to mention God is able to reveal or open someone's mind to revelation, just downloading a knowing of some sort right into somebody and God can communicate in visions and stories and all manner of ways. To suggest that God cannot convert someone to the truth to me is absurd. And provided He is willing, then it will happen. Not to mention the profound impact His presence alone and the glory of His power has on any who behold it. And to have one's book read aloud of all the harm they did and who that hurt presumably going through each work one by one. How horrifying and how effective that alone would be to humble someone.
Exceedingly well said. 3 months ago when you originally commented this, it was hope against hope for this doctrine. I think I’m starting to believe…
Do you believe the native American Indians down through the centuries who never got to hear about Christ will be annihilated out of existence by God?
@@robbchristopher158 of course not, it says everyone will be reconciled to God not most will be annihilated out of existence. He loves them and can save them so he will save them all.
An excellent conversation that since my embrace of Christianity, validates my forty year journey from Protestant Fundamentalism to Christ centred Ecumenism. Orthodoxy with its Biblical understanding of Apokatastasis a magnificent liberating and thus beautiful Gospel. Salvation by following Jesus in ourselves in this Age. And where we had fallen short of bearing God's image restoration by God by truth's fire in the Age to come. Yes there will be the anguish and the excruciating pain(fire) of regret, of having taken in vain God's name of I AM in ourselves. And by this I mean God's image. Love of God in ALL, love of self, that is our true self Christ in us, and lastly love of others in who also Christ dwells... known to them (Christianity) or not.❤️
Love Hronich. Great interview, thanks!
This is an informative and beautiful discussion.
I'd like to fill in the gap on the resurrection conversation.
The dead from Adam to those who've died before Christ preached to them, were in sheol or hades awaiting the resurrection that took place at the Parousia.
Understanding Christ's fulfillment of the Law of Moses; the prophets and psalms connects deeply as Christ reconciling all mankind.
The Kingdom og God was ushered in some two thousand years ago after the great tribulation and fedtruction of apostate Israel and the OT sacrificial system.
All has been fulfilled and Christ has reconciled all.
I studied the reconcilation for years before being shown fulfilled eschatology. It's been a blessing.
To me it’s pure logic, that a loving God can’t possibly be a sadistic God as well, deviding humans into two groups, sheeps and goats. I’m a Protestant, former Catholic and er believe God may “burn” evilness and sins away from any man and he will be left purified for ever and enter in to eternity. For me it’s such a relief to believe in this. No longer worries and sadness about the evil and wether we are saved or not.
If you get the time Randal, it would be interesting to see a rebuttal to Michael McClymond’s book on Universalism.
Thank You for this info 😊👍👍
Thank you!
Why are we treating Calvinism as a legitimate debate partner?
in its various forms and offshoots, it is THE doctrine of just about every church in america.
Loll
SOO TRUE BY BROTHER 😂🎉
@@JTomas96 Nice to connect with someone else who gets it! All the best to you, brother.
@@michaell1425 Beware of Zionist Christianity handled by masons my brother. we are in the endtimes and are plagued by doctrines of devils.
1 Timothy 4:10
King James Version
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of "all" men, specially of those that believe.
That is my most favorite verse! Thank you God bless you and everything you do!
Rather undermines the Christsucker rhetoric of 'God loves all equally'.
@@williamoarlock8634 what do you mean?
@@deeveevideos That Christ's sheep are more 'loved' (in fantasy) than the non-Christians.
@@williamoarlock8634 what are Christ sheep? God does love everyone equally but just like a parent you'd be disappointed if you saw one of your children doing something that was not good for them. That doesn't mean you love them less It just means you love them so much that you wish they wouldn't do stuff that hurt themselves. And as we saw with Jesus he went after the ones that were lost and brokenhearted, and in the eyes of man who are great sinners because he hung out with the riffraff. Or like the parable of the prodigal son, The one who left and squandered everything given to them yet when they came back to the father he threw him a huge party. Does that sound like an unloving God?
I'm ordering the book!
Universalism from a philosophical perspective makes a lot of sense.
God is maximally good ergo maximally loving, which makes him more loving than anyone else.
This would mean that if there's a non-God person who would forgive everyone, then God must be more loving than that person.
The objections to philosophical perspectives create an interesting set of questions.
For example, "God mustn't allow repentance for the damned because of his Justice" raises questions about God's justice, such as "is his justice separate from his love",if yes it then raises the question "does God's sense of justice supersede his mercy" if yes we then get a logical issue, and if we are to agree God cannot defy logic, then God would not be maximally loving.
But let's say the answer to the first question is no, and the response is God's Love creates his justice, well we'd want to then establish why it's more loving and therefore just, to deny repentance to the damned.
I'm not universalist but I do find it interesting, hopefully we can all move past ETC and get the debates about Universalism vs annihilation
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur.
This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy.
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
@@micahhenley589 If by hell you are referring to literal eternal literal neverending torment, no, that is not loving to submit someone to that nor is is glorious. That is a mischaracterization of the God of the Bible. If that were true, either God never loved that person or stopped loving that person. But that is not a expression of love for a person in any way. Also, if you foreknew this plan for this person, to suggest you ever loved this person while knowing you'd stop loving this person to this degree, it is unlikely and hard to claim you loved that person at all to begin with.
@@artbyrobot1 The fact that God allows sinners to live for more than a second demonstrates His great love, mercy, and grace. Never forget that my brother.
"But because of His great love for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:4-5
@@micahhenley589 You say "The fact that God allows sinners to live for more than a second demonstrates His great love, mercy, and grace" --- I disagree. By that same logic, the fact that Satan doesn't immediately kill everyone who God is not actively protecting proves Satan's love, mercy, and grace as well. And the fact that homosexuals do not kill everyone who disagrees with them instantly proves their love, mercy and grace. This is illogical to claim. It only proves God is not a complete lunatic. That you think God should kill everyone in one second if they ever sin and taht would be best is of greater concern. You are just parroting some point that is often parroted in evangelical Christianity but have failed to consider how foolish it really is.
@@artbyrobot1 Ok, so let me ask you this question: If the LORD decided to destroy every sinner on earth would you approve of His actions or would you disapprove of Him. Will a mere human condemn the perfect Creator?
One argument an annihilationist would make for why God would bring back the wicked dead instead of just leaving them dead is that God is just. People need their day in court. It would be unjust of Him to not let them stand on judgement day.
You gotta get David Bentley Hart on go talk about this... Although it's possible he is sick of talking about it, he speaks from the heart on these issues, and I suspect he does not like the flack he gets and can only handle it for a time before he feels compelled to move on.
No harm reaching out though!
The thing that sticks with me in my mind is that I don't think that God would create someone while fully knowing in advance that that person would eventually be separated from him forever. I don't think that if most of his own offspring would be facing the prospect of unending torment or even endless death that he would have followed through with it from the start. This seems like common sense if I'm to imagine that God loves and truly cares for anything he has created. For me, that would make him out to be worse than the worst of anyone that has ever lived or will live.
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur.
This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy.
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
@@micahhenley589 I don't agree. I would never do that to my own children, nor do I at all believe that God will do that to his (as if we're somehow kinder and more loving than God Himself.
Secondly, I'm not Trinitarian. My understanding is that Jesus Christ is the son of God: "For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him." (John 3:17) . The lake of fire, the second death is figurative, not literal fire. God is going to abolish death (put an end to it). This is ALL DEATH, including the lake of fire. The word, hell is a mistranslated word for sheol (Hebrew for grave) and hades (Greek for grave/death). Jesus Christ saved us from DEATH. Again, this includes every aspect of DEATH (including the lake of fire, the second DEATH)! Jesus Christ is THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD! This is EVERYONE!
"Now this is the will of Him Who sends Me, that all which He has given to Me, of it I should be losing nothing, but I shall be raising it in the last day." (John 6:39 - CLNT)
..."for of that which fills Him we all obtained, and grace for grace." (John 1:16)
The definition and meaning of grace is
unmerited favor, something we didn't merit !(do as a work or qualify for, or earn ourselves). I understand way more about tradition than you realize. I was in it for years. I'd suggest looking at this if you can:
ocoy.org/original-christianity/150-reasons-for-believing-in-the-final-salvation-of-all-mankind/
I don't mind talking about this stuff but to be honest, if just looked up these central topics, you'd find a whole lot more that could address your objections than I ever could in a lifetime. I'm not here to win proof text exchanges or debates. The salvation of all is my confident hope. I believe Jesus Christ is the successful and complete savior of the whole world. We didn't ask for it. That's what GRACE is!!!!
Peace:)
@@jasonegeland1446 Well as long as you accept that Jesus Christ alone is Lord and savior then you are good. We may disagree on secondary issues but the main issue is the Son of Man. Who is He? What did He do and say? What was His mission and goals? These questions are of most importance.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except though Me." John 14:6
"I am the Living One. I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." Revelation 1:18
@@micahhenley589 It has nothing to do with acceptance. If you pull a drowning man out of the ocean, you saved him. He didn't ask you to do it. There's nothing he was otherwise required to do to earn it. This is what Christ did for everyone, including Hitler, hence grace and the Savior of the world.
I would not have kids if I knew even one of them will be guaranteed neverending torment. Better to not begin and just abstain entirely.
Universalism to include all types of sinner,even the most vile, in my opinion, almost has to include the doctrine of reincarnation to make it rationally possible. It,for me, must also include a picture of Jesus loving Father as divine,creative,eternal Consciousness not the vain,vicious,vindictive Yahweh of the Old Testament. I have been following the work of Paul Wallis from Australia,and for me ,he provides the most logical answers my own Christian faith needs.
The third and in my opinion medium and balanced and Biblical view is Annihilationism. God is a consuming fire, not a tormenting fire. People do need to be 'saved' it is not a defacto position. We used to debate Once Saved Always Saved, but if universalism is true it's not an issue. I believe the biblical contrasts from Gen to Rev are life and death. Life to believers and death to unbelievers. Check out Rethinking Hell who have just put out some live videos critiquing Andrew's book.
Church of God,christadelphians,Jehovah's witnesses,seventh day Adventists believe in annilationism.thats very depressing and demoralizing.👎🏽
Cool story bro. Neat opinion.
I bet when the Creator, Abba, was inventing the story of the world he said “we better just go with medium balance here”
Faith is a gift from God not something we can gain on our own effort.
Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us.
Romans 12:3 NLT
Death means-
-Dying
-Having died
-Being dead
Billions of dead people who God remembers and whose spirits have gone back to God, means that death is never abolished.
The people I said this type of argument to said that they aren't dead if they are deleted therefore death is defeated as long as the person leaves existence to the point that even any memory of them is also deleted or something. Weird counterargument. Don't buy it.
Wrong: "For to be carnally minded is death". You are comitting the fallacy of defining death in your terms, this is type of idolatry.
Also "Christ has abolished death" and "the last enemy to be Katargeo is death", the word Katargeo is to release completely as in"if her husband dies, she is Katargeo(released) from the Law".
"Just as by the disobedince of one death came TO ALL, SO ALSO, by the obedience of one THE FREEGIFT OF LIFE CAME TO ALL" Rom5:18
If you profess Christ has not abolished death you are a heretic, to be honest.
"ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE" 1COR 15
WHERE THE HELL IS YOUR REASONING???
It's hard to imagine an earthly death that Hitler could die that would be sufficiently equivalent as a consequence in relation to the deaths of the millions he was essentially responsible for killing. I'm not sure that Molinist response quite works. Though I agree the general ressurection is little bit of a soft spot for annihilationism.
I'd say the best reason as to why God raises all is to judge. Judgement requires an equal standpoint for all being judged which implies that all will be raised..
I wonder if one could argue in response that ressurection entails a ressurected body which entails its incorruptibility?
I believe that someone like Corrie Ten Boom had a living, real understanding of how to forgive our enemies and pray for them to be reconciled to God. Everyone gets this opportunity...now or later.
Haven't read the book but so far in the conversation it seems to me the argument of universalism even when generously considered biblically, is a theological overreach. The more straightforward reading of the available data strongly suggests that there will be those that are 'lost'. One can theologically speculate based on some passages, but on balance it's just difficult to frame the biblical picture under universalism.
But the woman who lost the coin kept looking for it until she found it. The shepherd left the 99 sheep and found the one who was lost. So lost might not mean forever lost. In Luke chapter 9 James and John wanted to command fire to come down on a Samaritan village and consume them because they rejected them. But Jesus rebuked them, vs 55, “You do not know the Spirit you are of! For the Son of Man did not come to destroy mens lives but to save them” and there is another verse that says The Son of Man came to seek and save that which is lost. So yeah, the Bible talks about the lost, but Jesus will save the lost. Or maybe has already saved them before the foundations of the world and they just don’t have any awareness of it yet.
@@dianebice9103I'm familiar with the passages you quote and alluded to, but to make a theological conclusion, i.e., universalism, from such passages is an overreach IMO. Biblical eschatology strongly suggests that there will be a great divide between 'sheep and goats' in the last day (as Jesus said in Matthew 25, but let me be quick to add that I don't hold to the traditional ECT doctrineof hell, I lean towards conditionalism). Umiversalism for remains in the realm of a theological and philosophical speculation and not borne out of exegesis.
@@zgobermn6895 I see the sheep and goats not as faith believers and nonbelievers, but rather the compassionate and the hard hearted. But regardless, I think divine justice is about making things right again, making the crooked paths straight. It’s for our betterment, not our demise. I think judgment springs forth from his love.
@@zgobermn6895 YOu say that there will be a great divide between sheep and goats in the last day. By this, you infer that universalism denies this. That's false. Apokatastasis universalism upholds this. We uphold that the goats are denied entry by the narrow gate and enter into the afterlife by the broad gate and they go to lower Hades for 1k+ years until the 2nd resurrection of the dead and the Great White Throne judgement event. From there they are cast into the Lake of Fire where they are purged and refined by the refining fire of the presence of God and they are saved by submitting to Christ.
The truth is there are 2 gospels, 1 to israel and 1 to the nations through paul. The etymology of Paul's name comes from the greek word "pauo" (strong's greek 3973) which means "pause" God paused his work he was doing with Israel from acts to hebrews to work through Paul to bring the gospel to the nations. Paul's gospel tells us that Christ saved all humanity (not just believers) through His sacrifice on the cross.
As in adam all are dying, as in Christ all will be made alive. There is judgment, only death is unconsciousness and only age long or an eon. The greek word aionion (the plural form of aion "age" or "eon" so correct translation would be "eons") was mistranslated in almost all of our English versions to eternal, everlasting (eonion life), world, and forever and ever (if it's already forever why would they have to add the and ever? Correct translation is "eons of the eons" when the body of Christ get there glory and Israel get there promise on earth) this was a trick by the adversary to try and cover the true success of the cross, the salvation of the world, starting with Chist the firstfruit, those Christ's in his presence; thereafter the consummation (completion of Christ becoming all in all)
1 Corinthians 15:21-28
Concordant Literal New Testament
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
Also hell is a mistranslation, the three words translated hell are the Hebrew word sheol, along with the greek words gehenna and tartarus, all different meanings none of which are eternal torment. Sheol (hades in the greek) means the "abode of the dead" scripture tells us "the dead know nothing" sheol is described as sleep "nothingness" this is the resting place of all that passed, belivers and non believers until the snatching away ("rapture" for the body of Christ), then the great white throne, then later God becomes all in all.
Gehenna (valley of hinnom) is a valley outside of Jerusalem where they would burn sewage and dead bodies (this was the word jesus used anytime they translated him saying hell in the bible, this was Christ talking to the israelites regarding their gospel while he was here on earth before he was glorified and revealed his salvation gospel to Paul on the road to Damascus, the fires of Gehenna will be used again during the millennium kingdom). Tartarus is where the devil the beast and the false prophet are tormented for 1,000 years during the millennium kingdom, there is no mention of humans being eternally tormented in a properly translated scripture.
Any good or bad parent would never stop loving their child this belief makes Gods love impossible to ignore. His mercy endures forever.
So much parental love is useless particularly that of the Christian god.
I think I will stick with Yeshua words on the narrow path vs wide that leads to destruction, or the parable of the rich men in hell vs Lazarus in Abraham bosom. Yeshua wars is about lies like these in the last days!
Young men repent it’s clearly written in the Bible not your book words!
Destruction it is. Not heaven nor hell. Life vs destruction. From Gen 2 to Revelation 20. Life vs Death.
This dude's cocky need to be more humble brother and the way you present yourself
There is no universalism
Biblically speaking, God would still be completely glorious, kind, and loving even if He sentenced every person to hell. Sinners have no claim on heaven at all. Their only claim is the lake of fire and burning sulfur.
This makes God's plan of salvation completely remarkable! Why would the King of Glory step down from His thrown, take on human flesh, and die a wretched death on a cross? He did it so that we might praise Him for His wonderful grace and mercy.
"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9
you don't have to spam this message 3 times
nobody asked god to force them into existence, into a sinful body, into a sinful world, into a world with trillion IQ non human entities with the only hobby to make people sin.
if universalism is not true, then, satan is right about god.
Wonderful mercy=torturing almost everyone ever born forever😂 unimaginable evil=wonderful mercy
@@juicedgoose well said. it would be the most demonic deed ever done making even Hitler look like a saint by comparison. Nothing ever done under the sun could ever come even close to matching the utter evil of it.
@@juicedgoose God does not owe mercy to anyone. Anyone who receives mercy from God gets it as a free gift.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Univeralism is unbiblical.
Romans 5? 1 Cor 15:20-24? 1 Tim 4:10? Colossians 1:19-20?
Unbiblical can mean a lot of things, there are ideas in the Bible that are “unbiblical” like polygamy. I’m assuming you meant “the idea cannot be deduced from scripture” which is simply untrue. Whether you place emphasis on proof texts, general themes, philosophy, or church history universalism checks all of these boxes. Stating that something is unbiblical will not stop people from finding out that it is.
@@jake_marlowuniversalism is unbiblical.
Satan’s greatest lie is universal reconciliation which will send billions to the lake of fire 🔥
Cool opinion bro. Eternal conscious torment is unbiblical. Its unloving. Its anti-logic. Anti-Logos. Anti-Christ.
@@Landis_Grantyeah Satan is tricking a bunch of us into praying for the world, spreading the kingdom of God, and believing King Jesus will ultimately defeat Satan and rescue all under his sway! Yeah!! Satan really tricked us on this one 😅😂
Quick! Go scare and shame more people into following Jesus. It’s the only way to save them!!!