Honestly playing BG3, loving it, and not finishing it is kind of the exact dnd experiences, I feel like probably 90% of dnd campaigns never reach any kind of conclusion
The list of things Larian had going for them can be directly applied to many other developers, such as Bethesda, who completely fail to deliver RPGs or other styles of games with even half the quality. So let’s not take away from what Larian achieved by pointing to things that aren’t even unique to them
I think my personal issue with the game industry is less the quality of the games and more a frustration with what I see as a gross mismanagement of resources. I played so many small, dumb, bad flash games back in the day but they did not make me mad. I've even played many indie games I played money for that didn't turn out well and I still wasn't mad just disappointed. But seeing those multimillion dollar, billion dollar companies not only continue to nickel and dime consumers but also on top of that make bad games. Oh, it makes me so mad, and I'm mad because of the waste. All that money, labor, and time they have and they made a bad game? Why? Come on, why have we even consolidated all this money into these companies if they aren't making good games, we could have hundreds or thousands more indie studios instead, that would be so much better, or it feels that way sometimes. So yeah, it's the waste and mismanagement of huge amounts of resources that really pissed me off, not so much that every single RPG I play isn't at the same level as Balder's Gate, and I'm guessing that's most people's issues, it's just hard to articulate that.
I dont get how you can say "game devs have to worry about pleasing shareholders" and not see the underlying problem. So shareholders are actively ruining video games, and the onus is on the players to understand that thats just something game devs have to deal with? Why do we have shareholders if they are making the product worse? Why should we have to accept that?
@JoelDZ I don't know the alternative. But the fact we think there isn't an alternative is depressing. Public trading and shareholders aren't natural laws of the universe. There has to be some better way to do things.
this is the best example of why twitch chat harbors toxicity and dogshit opinions, Noodle is making a great point but he's taking too long to make them, and as soon as big A gives even the slightest look of disagreement, it gives all of the brainrot chatters the green light to talk shit about the guy, the video, his opinion, even the way he sounds, it's insane, Atrioc is disagreeing, as any normal person can, but he understands the broader point the video is trying to make, he's forgiving, he gives him time to explain himself, and he doesn't take things out of context, chaters on the other hand are quick to judge and like their opinions polarized, either he's a genius making the best points, or (if there's even a shred of doubt in Atrioc's eyes) it's the worst take they've ever heard and Noodle is an idiot, there's no in between. As an active twitch user, fuck twitch chat.
Yeah, seeing people call the video bad and ask to turn it off as he's actively trying to have a conversation about it is truly brain rot. But you are going to almost always remember and hear the loud minority. The majority are either emoting or not messaging at all and just enjoying the content. I mean, 5.7k views on this video and 39 comments as of now. Not as bad with twitch chats but similar. Only people that are motivated to chat do, and those people are far more likely to be hypersensitive and let emotions + subconscious habits rule what they say. I can confidently say 99% of the people chatting messages like these would never act that way in real life, they're just over-emoting to feel they're contributing.
Tbf the guy in the video is also being pretty toxic, where often when he brings up a new point he also insults people who either disagree with him or didn't interpret a statement the same way as he did.
Except it really wasn't good point, and he leaves out that the vast majority of developers that were agreeing with nelson were all from AAA studios. No-one with any level of critical thinking capability thinks that small studio should be making bg3 level games, but the AAA studios that can should be making games that have the same amount of care put into it as bg3 does. Noodles entire video misses the entire point of peoples reaction towards what the developers were saying. Instead of actually understanding their points, he instead spends the video making excuses like shareholders.
The problem is that baldur’s gate 3 could have made more money if it had been monetized in a more exploitative way. And they would have had a fiscal obligation to do that if they were publicly traded.
@@turbotoke8882but does it change the fact that Blizzard also had many advantages (hype, resources, larger staff, greater marketing and an established brand) and still pumped out a mediocre game at launch
and they wont stop cuz theyr still rakin in money, very unfortunately too profitable to change from being risk averse and changing their management in any meaningful way
18:02 I feel like it’s not that people would say that specifically, it’s just that everytime a good big game comes out it’s always “This MASSIVE game has so much CONTENT it’s so great because of that GINORMOUS amount of stuff you can do” which leads some developers to think “oh we need to make game big now”
Okay but if the developers think that than the issue is developers and executives being stupid is it not? Noodle tries to make out the consumer to be the idiot when it’s the studios like EA Blizzard Activision etc. that put immediate profit over long term customer good will (which is fucking braindead)…
@@EluneMusic true, there are plenty of developers that are aware of this, typically in the indie space. The problem is that this sentiment is read a ton by the big top heads of the big gaming companies, forcing them to crunch and work a ton. If people started saying “Hey we want smaller well crafted games” more often potentially those company heads could listen. Also I think Noodle’s comments are specially targeted at the small group of gamers that constantly talk about small meaningless details like if your footsteps in the snow are realistic enough.
We gamers want quality not quantity, the problem is that it requires time and money, while balders gate has both quality and quantity, and that is the reason people get mixed up and where the drama stems from
also regarding microtransactions: i think some of the most profitable games are free to play genuinely somewhat fun games that people think the developers deserve to get some money for the fun they had with the game. fifa is the outlier in this where you have a full price game where microtransactions to play the multiplayer/collection mode are seemlessly accepted by most of the playerbase. first of all developers need to make a good game where extra money options in it to quote on quote tip the developer for their effort arent frowned upon.
FPS and Sports games are the real culprits in large game developers' micro transaction trends. Every edition is basically a re skinned game yet fans play them because of the athlete sponsors etc.
this video always felt weird to me, and now i know why. rather unfortunate that noodle had to be given the worst fate for a youtuber (1 hour long video destroying his bad argument and ruining his credibility) hopefully he just totally ignores the expose because it was done by a much smaller channel and keeps pumping out content!! his videos other than this one are really really good
@@jakestaheli8532 What misinformation? I'm genuinely not sure where he messed up, I agreed with all the takes. If huge games packed with content become the standard, we would have a very brief golden age and then the same formats would be repeated because novel concepts with a game that big can kill a studio. Gaming is an industry and complaints that cannot be resolved are useless
@taransethia8291 watch Archwizardcj's video about the topic, he goes much more in depth about how he maliciously takes everyone he disagrees with out of context. You only agree with noodle because his point of view is the only one you've been exposed to.
Noodle's video is full of lies and *all* of the videos he brings up, Destin, Critikal, Legacy were manipulated to prove his point. None of those dudes said that Baldur's Gate has changed their expectation of the entire industry, it AFFIRMED their suspicion that all of the AAA devs have been full of shit for years and they're scared shitless now. The ONLY group that Nelson and Noodle are protecting in *their* arguments, is shareholders.
Hey I've seen you in arch's video. With all respect I think that his video was full of bad arguments and misleading information and I would like to talk to you about it. I'm not insulting you for believing it, I just want to talk
Original video is really bad. Hes stuck on scale but the original argument was never about the scale, it was just about how good as a package bg3 was not how big it is. He complains about gamers misunderstanding that devs tweets, while completely misunderstanding those tweets and the discussion in general
yeah the first guy mentioned scale one time in his entire thread and then followed up by claiming that he was only ever referring to scale to get out of the backlash.
The short of it is, Noodle turned on his own audience and is trying to gaslight them into believing an argument that nobody actually made. He sold out. More information here. m.ruclips.net/video/FafzxKtZ26E/видео.html
Without even looking at that video you linked I'm assuming its CJ's video where he attacks a person for making an opinion piece. An hour and 30 min video that covers about 8 min of footage from Noodles video.
This noodle guy just sounds like a elitist or something, "I'm a dev I know about stuff but you guys are fukin idiots and dont know anything" "to be fair to most people, they arent journalist, but me tho, I know a lot" and he keeps repeating its just the scale of the game and nothing else matters, he missed the point and tries to act like everyone else missed the point but he is the only smart one. also one of the biggest thing I dont understand about these videos defending the devs, its always "Larian spent years with the engine and had years of early access and they spent years and years making the game, others cant do that" Why? and noodle somehow makes a point we shouldnt even complain, we shouldnt even say if something is not fun? This guy is insane. some AAA propaganda right here.
Noodles video is basically smoke, mirrors, and misdirection. I don't know if anyone has noticed it but he spliced the clip of LegacyKiller talking about raised expectations. I had to go back and rewatch Legacy's video and I just went livid. The dude is rearranging things just to hold up an argument that *does not exist* .
He made a 20 minute video covering every angle of the issue. You miss a lot of context when the video is cut apart like this. The general point I got from it is that pressuring developers to pack their games with content is unideal and the best thing to do is to let smaller games exist so boundaries can be tested without gambling a studio. On Noodle himself he has made an entire, really good, video on AAA abuse of workers. I think your viewpoint is valid based on what you saw, but if you watched the video alone with preconceptions aside, I think you would change your mind.
@@RedStar441I think the underlying argument makes sense and there was a surplus of evidence that it is accurate. That lone example could just be due to trying to make the video digestible to the casual consumer.
@@Trainssssssssssssssssssssssss its not an example tho, he outright spliced what LegacyKIller said to fit his narrative. That's what doesn't sit well with me and others.
@@kkcyd Correct me if I am wrong, but his video was briefly shown in a gallery of other similar videos. It would've been jarring to have slight differences between each part of the gallery. I would say this isn't too reductive. Especially since he did not intend to shame the creators just show that people actually did have the opinion he was arguing against, which he did.
You mean a line of dialogue that talks about AA and indie studios. When the focus on the video was AAA? Yea really important context cut out right there.
the reason the guy got flack isnt because every game has to be as big and detailed and insanely good as bg3, just that everybody should realisticially assess how big they can make a game and make that size as polished as possible. arguably even larian failed at this, making 2 acts absolutely earthshatteringly perfect and then having to rush to tie it all together with all the story options earlier in act 3, also not getting to endlessly bugtest the 3rd act to finish. they quickly delivered it after release though. everybody is just sick of vast open worlds like bethesda or ubisoft games that are just halfassed, ugly, bugridden and even lacking storywise.
I like baldurs gate 3, but is it controversial to say it *wasn’t* a huge game? It was like, an average sized rpg. Three acts, five hub-section places for quests and sidequests. Also, it totally did have paid dlc, you can go buy it. It has a few clothes and paints and things, a few early enchanted weapons, standard rpg dlc stuff.
I believe they are refering to the scale of work put into it, not simply the length of the game or the size of the map. I haven't played the game myself, but I've heard it has a large number of branching dialog (all voiced), along with many different skills or team compositions that all interact in many ways with each other and other systems (like the dialog). Interactions between different systems exponentially increases the complexity of a game, and that means far more money, time, and effort are required. Something most couldn't afford, or would never be allowed to take the risk to do even if they could.
The whole “we have brain flaws” argument is one that I get is hard to combat but it also really isn’t. I was addicted to and played destiny for the better part of 9 years. And there’s plenty of other franchises I have played for most of my life that I have seen go downhill over time due to obvious shareholder stress and the idea that making money outweighs a better product. It’s not a developers fault if they are just doing what they are told. But it most definitely isn’t the consumer’s fault if they’re being exploited either. Most people don’t have gambling issues, but the issue with any addiction is most of the time it isn’t all consuming until it’s too late. A wake up call is needed for a lot of people to realize that in all seriousness you as a consumer have literally no reason to play a game you actively do not enjoy, just because it’s from a studio you used to like. We should continue to play only what makes us happy and lift up edge case games. And the discourse that it’s a shareholder only making the developer do what they do isn’t always true. They’re people too, and people make mistakes. So calling out developers who are making fucked up exploitative game content when they are told to make as much money as possible - isn’t something that shouldn’t happen either. You just don’t have to be rude about it and give them death threats. Ethical dilemmas aren’t a black and white issue, and both sides have responsibility to do the right thing. Government regulation would be nice but let’s be honest in the US mfs just follow the money, not what consumers want. So I say we just continue to ignore the slop and only play projects that actually have care put into the product at hand.
That was the most non-issue I've ever heard being talked about for 40 minutes, people should expect good things from devs, and most people know that an indie dev and a triple a team require different expectations. This noodle guy's style is great but this was so dumb.
I agree, I think video game monetization should be regulated. It exploits flaws in human psychology that people can't help. It's so obviously predatory.
Noodle's video is essentially arguing with a person that doesn't exist, no one made any of these takes targeting the smaller devs or titles, everyone exclusively targeted the triple A industry specifically, and the video is filled with edits that make these people seem entitled when in reality, they are asking for triple A companies to be bigger and better, since they clearly haven't been for years.
35:20 but the gamer only likes that because they believe you. Cyberpunk a perfect example. OBVIOUSLY we would get sucked in by promises, And obviously we will be disappointed if the promises aren't reached
It seems Atrioc didn't seem to get the most important thing was to the jornalist from inside the industry (and influencers too) to do better so that people don't regurgitate wrong info.
Diablo 4 and Cyberpunk receiving a swan song for their "redemption" frustrates me to no end. My best friend loves those two games and keeps trying to tell me "just get it, it'll get better, the devs promised." No shit they promised, the games are too big to fail, they NEED to fix it. It's not because they want to do right by gamers, they don't give a shit. They just know that if they drip feed fixes and keep gamers coming back and reigniting the marketing time and time again, they can farm the IP over and over for more profit. The only game that felt like they just fucked up and felt super bad about it was No Man's Sky. They were truly indie, they didn't have the backing ActiBlizz or CDPR had. They could have dropped the game and saved their skin earlier, but they pushed through despite all the fire and flames. Activision Blizzard and CDPR don't deserve that same recognition for doing what they could afford to do, and doing what they were going to do regardless. It's not a redemption when they crashed the car intentionally knowing they have insurance to bail them out. It pisses me off how much these companies are rewarded for their greed. Be it gacha mechanics & psychology abuse (mihoyo), stupendous levels of mtx (COD), low effort rehashes (EA Sports), or just trash releases knowing they can fix it along the way and their fans will follow them blindly (CDPR and Blizzard). But it's human to be this level of stupid and just allow it so whats the point. Baldurs Gate 3 succeeded in a bubble, but it sure as shit won't pave the way for other developers or studios to do what they did. We'll have teams splinter off of developers like Bioware or Blizzard to make their own titles, but they will always always always have a fraction of the success the original studios have. A good example? Last Epoch can be better than Diablo 4 in every mechanical way, have more in it since it was designed as a game for gamers since the start, but they will always get eclipsed by Diablo 4 even though they spat in your face for 1.5 seasons and cried on livestreams, pleading to the community they'll be better. No matter how wronged gamers can be by Blizzard, they will always make money because their players have been conditioned to play their games since they we're the pinnacle, so going elsewhere would be going worse. Kind of like what Apple has done. They have used their reputation to keep their customers over the year, keeping them in the dark with how their phones have lagged behind in breakthroughs for so many years, are considerably more expensive for reasons that make little sense, yet if its not Apple, you're a broke ass with a green bubble.
Some of the most successful, beloved, culturally impactful games were massive in scope tho?? Witcher 3, breath of the wild, tears of the kingdom, red dead 2, GTA5, Hades, Elden Ring, ... bloody BALDUR'S GATE 3! Yes bigger scope means bigger challenges and bigger risk but the notion that there's something fundamentally wrong with that or that we god forbid shouldn't ask for big games is ridiculous 🤡
Lets take the least relevant of those out: Hades, botw, and totk are just not what we are talking about when we say "massive". Sure, they are large in literal world size, but that isn't the point. We are talking about the amount of individual mechanics and dialogue boxes and interactions and places and sprites and etc etc. Botw is big, but when you break it down it's just a large map with some number of monsters, some number of dungeons, and some amount of story, we arent talking about the korok seeds or things like that which are huge sure, but not in the way we are talking about. Now lets talk about the ones here that are actually relevant: Witcher 3, RD2, GTA5, and Elden ring (sort of not really, elden ring is a bit of column a and a bit of column b). These games have an incredible quantity and quality of content to them, but they are not Balders Gate 3. They have an order of magnitude less of things such as dialogue, mocap, and hand built map. They do not have sprawling dialogue trees, they were just big and detailed, unlike the ones above which are just big. But we aren't just talking about detail, we are talking about pants-shittingly huge amounts of detail. BG3 has 6 years almost bankrupting the company levels of detail. You can't ask for that. You can ask for GTA6 to be bigger than GTA5, you can ask for Red Dead 3 to be as big as Red Dead 2, but you cannot ask for a game to be as big as Baldur's Gate 3. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with another game like BD3 being made, but it is not something that can be made on command or because the consumers want it. It's like saying "well Elon Musk sent a rocketship into space so why isn't that the standard for billionares??", it just doesn't work that way.
You are also forgetting that culturally impactful games have been coming out for a long time. Dark Souls 1 isn't a massive game neither are games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Legend of Zelda Link To The Past, Bioshock, System Shock. Hell even the big games back then aren't that big anymore such as FF7 or Chrono Trigger. There has been TONS of evidence of smaller games having huge impact but you need to look at things farther than just 10 years.
Noodle isn’t saying that games with big maps and lots of stuff are bad for the industry. He’s specifically saying that games with incredibly complex interconnected webs of things that can be done and can happen are awesome to experience, but come with massive risks for the studios working on them. His point isn’t that good games shouldn’t be made, but rather that in the current climate of the games industry where shareholder returns at everything for studios, asking for these kinds of games is a sure fire way to make sure that all of the studios ambitious enough to make them will completely fall apart.
I feel like the raised standard thing can be summed up in the following: if Lebron scores 100 points in a single game, it is an incredible, superhuman, record breaking feat, but that shouldn't become the new standard for how Lebron plays every game going forward.
That's not quite a perfect analogy. It'd be more like if one player scored 100 points in a game, and then a lot of star players throughout the league started tweeting "well don't expect ME to be doing that." Would they technically be wrong? No, we all know they're not capable of it. But it is still a *really* bad look to be saying it out loud.
@@ATXnomad698is it a bad look though, if a BUNCH of fans started tweeting about how they expect other players to score upwards of 100 points per game too?
@@ATXnomad698 But NO ONE made that argument. You're just shadowboxing with a statement that neck beards made on twitter. Devs at AAA studios are too overworked and treated like shit to care about if another game does better.
@@ATXnomad698what you're missing is the context. It wasn't say randomly it was in reaction to fans saying they should have 100 point games all the time.
Chat and Atrioc kinda missed the point in this one. They’re arguing against a point that isn’t being made, which is ironically how the entire “debate” about BG3 happened in the first place.
yeah they are arguing against a point that wasn't being made. The reason they did that was because it was the main point of the drama, and the video failed to mention it. The video created a strawman argument and attacked it. Atrioc and chat ignored the strawman and said "this is actually why people were upset" and atrioc kept holding the video's arguments up against the actual argument. The video kinda missed the point. The video didn't address the actual points and he ironically did the very thing he was criticizing others for.
Nah, they got the point. It's just that this entire video was made to defend the Xavier tweet, and the Xavier tweet was just ambiguous as hell and is addressing a non-existent problem. On the release of BG3 gamers were enthusiastic and upset with AAA developers releasing shit games with microtransactions. Than Xavier tweets: "but I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward" and other developers chime in and agree. Everyone with a brain understands that Indie games can't be held to that standard, so people can only assume that they are talking about games in general, otherwise you are just making a moot point that everyone agrees with anyway. Atrioc acknowledges that in the video by spelling out what gamers are actually upset about. The entire problem is just an ambigious tweet. If you tweet something so obvious people will assume you meant something else and read different intentions in the tweet.
If you read the tweets, he starts by saying that this shouldn't be a raised standard, then lists all the advantages larian had. It takes until halfway through his thread before he even mentions scope, and only refers to it by calling BG3 a "megagame". Then he says that it's an anomaly, and trying to mirror it could kill other developers and we shouldn't hold future RPG's to the same standard. "megagame" is not a common phrase, and it was only mentioned twice in the thread. If you miss that phrase, or don't understand it, then it reads exactly how people saw it, AND genuine triple A game devs joined in. The problem with this video is that no one is expecting BG3 of an indie studio, but we do expect diablo 4, overwatch 2, or AC valhalla to be better when it has every single advantage that larian did x100. It is also weird to defend other triple A devs when larian is a relatively small studio compared to the supergiants like activision blizzard or EA. BG3 HAS set a new standard for AAA game quality, and although the backlash at the twitter guy was misplaced, this video ignores all the things people do want BG3 to act like a new standard for.
This was the most frustrating part for me with regards to the Noodle video as well. Both Noodle and the original IGN videos are arguing past each other against claims that were never made. I have more problems with the Noodle video though. The idea that we should essentially just let game devs cook is just not how society works in the modern era. In my opinion, the Noodle video was poorly made, confusing, and missing the point and people eat it up because he sounds confident.
Nobody was shitting on indie or low scale games or comparing them to BG3. People are shitting on and comparing stuff like Diablo or Assassin's Creed. Games which are similarly huge with the same long list of advantages that were given in those comments, but are just the same old boardroom standard engagement metrics stuffed with as many ways as possible to get into your wallet. Those games should absolutely be held up to the standard BG3 set, which reveals them to be the garbage that they are.
No. They absolutely do not have the same list of advantages as were given, would you like to listen again? They do not have a staff of hundreds all with 2 massive games of experience making that type of game, they do not have the same custom engine for making that kind of game. Unless of course you mean that they're lower QUALITY than BG3 in which case you missed the entire point of the video because the guy agrees with that.
@aukora129 Fucking listen to yourself. Blizzard did not have hundreds of staff members with two prior titles to practice? Also I know the guy keeps talking about the size of the game, which is an awful point because literally no one loves BG3 for how big the game is. They love it for the writing, the voice acting, the care put into adapting a pen and paper system to a video game, the lack of aggressive micro transactions, and other qualitative metrics. Also he may say he's arguing about the size of the game, but he definitely isn't. All of the advantages brought up are helping the quality of the game, not the size. An engine for making this type of game? Increases the quality. Lots of time for public and in-house testing? Quality. Existing worlds to draw on for story? Quality. His video is one giant lesson in irony, as he spends it arguing against a position that nobody took, using arguments that have nothing to do with his position. The exact thing he's accusing other people of. He strawmans his opposition as bald, stupid neckbeards, and he very obviously has a bias against BG3 in the first place, as he takes every opportunity to insult it. Once again, he is absolutely wrong. We should be comparing AAA games with the same advantages to BG3, and we shouldn't have to just accept garbage because of ridiculous reasons like "think of the shareholders". Have a good day.
@@aukora129 Triple A games definitely have the same advantages Larian had, if not more lol. There's over a thousand people who worked on Diablo 4. With 3 games in the same IP. Assassins creed has like 15 games. Far cry has 6. All of these studios most recent games have pretty mixed reviews from users.
@@aukora129Why are you insuating that larian is somehow the biggest baddest of the studio? It doesn't even come close to the ones people are complaining about.
Man it really feels like Atrioc is arguing against something Noodle never said. The whole video was about how games can't consistently be giant interconnected webs, and that people were making a whole bunch of videos arguing with a strawman that "Game devs scared of good game". Meanwhile Atrioc is complaining about the lack of microtransaction mentions before he even gets to that point
Honestly Noodle was arguing about a non existent point too imo cause no one is arguing that they expect every AAA to be a massive sprawling open world but rather most people were generally annoyed/mad at the idea of excusing AAA developers for providing lackluster content when there’s smaller studios like Larian that can release genre defining games with significantly less resources (with no missing content that is pushed out as DLC). Noodle was super focused on the “size” of the games when most people wouldn’t mind a short condensed game as long as it isn’t the same thing like every other game in the same genre and incredibly broken at launch.
@@ChadWalk His point was that expecting every studio to do it just because a smaller one did it, would kill the industry. It was a massive risk-reward, and as he shows in the video other devs that made similar risk's werent so lucky, even Larian themselves almost went bankrupt 2 years ago. Noodle isnt saying games should be broken at launch, youre having an entirely different conversation.
@@turbotoke8882 and we're saying that NOBODY ever expected all games to be huge like BG3. They were talking about the polish and lack of mtx in the game not the massive fucking size of it. noodle is arguing against a strawman while atrioc is addressing the actual opinions people had.
Same with mr beast lmao. People are mad at him(even a certain irish potato)for setting the bar so high now people have to do his style of content or else engagement is low. How ridiulous is this, be mad at youtube not him
“Dollars in dollars out”. Except now people allowed Microsoft and Sony to decide which dollars go in with Gamepass and Plus Extra. Tens of millions are no longer voting with their wallets to decide what gets made or not. Gamepass is the retirement home of video gaming. You let your caretakers decide what you get to play to chump.
Baldur's Gate 3 has made about 700 million dollars. Assassin's Creed Valhalla, has made over 1 billions dollars. I can't blame companies for taking free money from the dumbest demographic (gamers).
"YALL ARE MISUNDERSTANDING THEM" he says as he proceeds to make a video intentionally misunderstanding the criticism and expectations people have. NOBODY is saying "every game from now on should be as big in scale". IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. The biggest and most common thing is feature complete, no lootboxes, no intentionally removed content only to be repackaged as day 1 paid dlc, etc. There's literally AAA devs being like "we don't have the infinite budget that Larian has" and the director was like "what budget", or something like that. The devs are pulling excuses out of their ass, and when they got push back they're like "ignore the 99% else that we said, we were just talking about the LARGE GRAND SCALE OF IT and nothing else", and pretending as if the entire world is full of toxic gamers who expect every game to be a 300 hour epic. None of that is based in reality. The whole video is a strawman.
I have every right to expect the world from the next Mass Effect game. Stop making excuses for studios that make garbage for more than a decade and blame their audiences for not appreciating for marvellous genius.
I feel like I'm the only one that isn't completely blown away by BG3. I get that it's good, but it's not *that* good. I enjoyed AC6 more, even though it's a much smaller game. I enoyed Starfield more too, for that matter... BG3 just feels unfocused to me.
It's so interesting how the consumer always seems to prefer slop. People prefer shitty, cheap, reality tv over expensive, well-directed shows. People prefer the [insert any name-brand] $400 luxury item even though its the same mass-produced medium quality product as the items found in a target. And Atrioc viewers prefer watching their favorite streamer watch house over that boring high-quality segment called marketing monday.
What concepts? The whole point is that *NOBODY* ever said AAA games hade to be huge in scale, and Noodle has been arguing against a strawman the entire time. The phrase "raised standard" dos not imply scale at all. TL;DR noodle spliced audio clips to help support his shitty strawman argument lmaoooooo
@@EluneMusic TL;DR of comment above mine: Red-pilled CJ viewer that doesn't understand about cutting unnecessary things from quotes which is commonly used in journalism.
@@nightsider6478 what was that? Was that you addressing the fact that NOBODY said AAA games had to be huge in scale, and that the phrase “raised standard” has NOTHING to do with scale? No? Okay then stop typing :)
@@EluneMusic Raised standard means more quality and the point of noodles video was pointing out that executives, not devs, in the companies will look at this and want just bigger games without looking at the quality. Cope + Stay mad.
@nightsider6478 And stitching the video to make it look like no cut was made is also necessary? Yeah, that's not how journalism works, that's how propaganda works.
The video was very meh and preachy. The dude barely understands our issues and tries to put all developers under the same umbrella where everyone (except probably a few insane trolls) was talking about triple A development and not indy developers. Its all about the late stage capitalism ruining the art and experiences
Oh my gawd this hurts to watch, like alot of other comments have pointed out, atrioc is arguing a point that Noodle never made. Atrioc is too quick to pause the video before Noodle has even finished making his point and then Atrioc keeps rambling on putting words in noodles mouth and argues against a point that was never made. Twitch chat also doesnt help... Jesus christ atriocs take is so braind dead.
And y’know what? Cosmetic micro transaction’s are AMAZING for the average player. You get to play the game for free instead of $£€60-70 because some loser will buy all the cosmetics.
Why do we care if studios go out of business? The gaming market is huge, if the current studios can’t provide what people want then new studios will come into existence which will.
You missed the point, you don’t have to care when studios go out of business but see that most studios will not take the risk, spending milllions for a possibly unnoticed game and end up bankrupt
@@Smokethesea studios which don’t take risks and make games which are worth playing will go bankrupt either way. There’s not enough “safe” money but there’s plenty of money in bold ideas.
Because a studio is a living thing as much as an individual developer? The studio, being made of developing talent and people, cannot be killed and resurrected at will. In the same vein of game preservation, the processes we developed to make games should be preserved.
an analogy I would use is that what you're saying is like saying "I don't care if this show im watching gets cancelled because there are plenty of other shows." There are many game series that I've loved that have died and will never have sequels because the studios went under. Also a direct example is given of a studio going out of business that did provide people with what they want, the major thing you stand to lose from a studio dying is their unique creation.
Bg3 is mid. Its just that were used to such garbage that when an overly talky mid product arrives we think its a masterpiece. And by we i mean you average gamers.
![Lethal Company Music Video 🎵 "Follow The Orders" [VERSION A]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QeooZB4Z7RA/mqdefault.jpg)
Honestly playing BG3, loving it, and not finishing it is kind of the exact dnd experiences, I feel like probably 90% of dnd campaigns never reach any kind of conclusion
Yeah, I'd agree with this, only 2 of my 9 campaigns have actually reached a finale/epilogue session.
Try 99%
The list of things Larian had going for them can be directly applied to many other developers, such as Bethesda, who completely fail to deliver RPGs or other styles of games with even half the quality. So let’s not take away from what Larian achieved by pointing to things that aren’t even unique to them
Also Larian is technically an indie developer by definition.
I think my personal issue with the game industry is less the quality of the games and more a frustration with what I see as a gross mismanagement of resources. I played so many small, dumb, bad flash games back in the day but they did not make me mad. I've even played many indie games I played money for that didn't turn out well and I still wasn't mad just disappointed. But seeing those multimillion dollar, billion dollar companies not only continue to nickel and dime consumers but also on top of that make bad games. Oh, it makes me so mad, and I'm mad because of the waste. All that money, labor, and time they have and they made a bad game? Why? Come on, why have we even consolidated all this money into these companies if they aren't making good games, we could have hundreds or thousands more indie studios instead, that would be so much better, or it feels that way sometimes.
So yeah, it's the waste and mismanagement of huge amounts of resources that really pissed me off, not so much that every single RPG I play isn't at the same level as Balder's Gate, and I'm guessing that's most people's issues, it's just hard to articulate that.
I dont get how you can say "game devs have to worry about pleasing shareholders" and not see the underlying problem. So shareholders are actively ruining video games, and the onus is on the players to understand that thats just something game devs have to deal with? Why do we have shareholders if they are making the product worse? Why should we have to accept that?
What's your alternative? Ban the public trading of video game companies?
@JoelDZ I don't know the alternative. But the fact we think there isn't an alternative is depressing. Public trading and shareholders aren't natural laws of the universe. There has to be some better way to do things.
@@lukas-po8yn Just play indie games bro
Bcause they have the money, thats what a shareholder does basically.
This is why i pirate triple a, buy indie. Well, sometimes i buy AAA but it’s usually heavily discounted and the game is exceptionally good
this is the best example of why twitch chat harbors toxicity and dogshit opinions, Noodle is making a great point but he's taking too long to make them, and as soon as big A gives even the slightest look of disagreement, it gives all of the brainrot chatters the green light to talk shit about the guy, the video, his opinion, even the way he sounds, it's insane, Atrioc is disagreeing, as any normal person can, but he understands the broader point the video is trying to make, he's forgiving, he gives him time to explain himself, and he doesn't take things out of context, chaters on the other hand are quick to judge and like their opinions polarized, either he's a genius making the best points, or (if there's even a shred of doubt in Atrioc's eyes) it's the worst take they've ever heard and Noodle is an idiot, there's no in between. As an active twitch user, fuck twitch chat.
Yeah, seeing people call the video bad and ask to turn it off as he's actively trying to have a conversation about it is truly brain rot. But you are going to almost always remember and hear the loud minority. The majority are either emoting or not messaging at all and just enjoying the content. I mean, 5.7k views on this video and 39 comments as of now. Not as bad with twitch chats but similar.
Only people that are motivated to chat do, and those people are far more likely to be hypersensitive and let emotions + subconscious habits rule what they say. I can confidently say 99% of the people chatting messages like these would never act that way in real life, they're just over-emoting to feel they're contributing.
Looking at it gave me an aneurysm
Tbf the guy in the video is also being pretty toxic, where often when he brings up a new point he also insults people who either disagree with him or didn't interpret a statement the same way as he did.
Except it really wasn't good point, and he leaves out that the vast majority of developers that were agreeing with nelson were all from AAA studios. No-one with any level of critical thinking capability thinks that small studio should be making bg3 level games, but the AAA studios that can should be making games that have the same amount of care put into it as bg3 does.
Noodles entire video misses the entire point of peoples reaction towards what the developers were saying. Instead of actually understanding their points, he instead spends the video making excuses like shareholders.
Bro relax it's just a video 😂
The problem is that baldur’s gate 3 could have made more money if it had been monetized in a more exploitative way. And they would have had a fiscal obligation to do that if they were publicly traded.
the twitch chat makes me wanna fill my ears with dirt
BG3 good game 6 years to make small team
D4 not good game 6-10 years to make big team
did you watch noodles video? You missed the point so hard
@@turbotoke8882but does it change the fact that Blizzard also had many advantages (hype, resources, larger staff, greater marketing and an established brand) and still pumped out a mediocre game at launch
and they wont stop cuz theyr still rakin in money, very unfortunately too profitable to change from being risk averse and changing their management in any meaningful way
18:02 I feel like it’s not that people would say that specifically, it’s just that everytime a good big game comes out it’s always “This MASSIVE game has so much CONTENT it’s so great because of that GINORMOUS amount of stuff you can do” which leads some developers to think “oh we need to make game big now”
Okay but if the developers think that than the issue is developers and executives being stupid is it not? Noodle tries to make out the consumer to be the idiot when it’s the studios like EA Blizzard Activision etc. that put immediate profit over long term customer good will (which is fucking braindead)…
@@EluneMusic true, there are plenty of developers that are aware of this, typically in the indie space. The problem is that this sentiment is read a ton by the big top heads of the big gaming companies, forcing them to crunch and work a ton. If people started saying “Hey we want smaller well crafted games” more often potentially those company heads could listen. Also I think Noodle’s comments are specially targeted at the small group of gamers that constantly talk about small meaningless details like if your footsteps in the snow are realistic enough.
We gamers want quality not quantity, the problem is that it requires time and money, while balders gate has both quality and quantity, and that is the reason people get mixed up and where the drama stems from
Nexon is still working on an NFT game lol
also regarding microtransactions: i think some of the most profitable games are free to play genuinely somewhat fun games that people think the developers deserve to get some money for the fun they had with the game. fifa is the outlier in this where you have a full price game where microtransactions to play the multiplayer/collection mode are seemlessly accepted by most of the playerbase. first of all developers need to make a good game where extra money options in it to quote on quote tip the developer for their effort arent frowned upon.
FPS and Sports games are the real culprits in large game developers' micro transaction trends. Every edition is basically a re skinned game yet fans play them because of the athlete sponsors etc.
All I got out of this video is that a trio wants Katarina nerfed for some reason. Kind of fucked when she sucks rn.
this video always felt weird to me, and now i know why. rather unfortunate that noodle had to be given the worst fate for a youtuber (1 hour long video destroying his bad argument and ruining his credibility)
hopefully he just totally ignores the expose because it was done by a much smaller channel and keeps pumping out content!! his videos other than this one are really really good
So noodle shouldn't take accountability for peddling misinformation and just pretend it didn't happen?
@@jakestaheli8532 yes, i need more slop
@@jakestaheli8532 What misinformation? I'm genuinely not sure where he messed up, I agreed with all the takes. If huge games packed with content become the standard, we would have a very brief golden age and then the same formats would be repeated because novel concepts with a game that big can kill a studio. Gaming is an industry and complaints that cannot be resolved are useless
@taransethia8291 watch Archwizardcj's video about the topic, he goes much more in depth about how he maliciously takes everyone he disagrees with out of context. You only agree with noodle because his point of view is the only one you've been exposed to.
@nightsider6478 if you're angry that he didn't show noodles entire video, tell me, what crucial context did he leave out?
people kept saying people dont care while that maybe be true 100% percent of people won't care if no one talks about it or raises a stink
Noodle's video is full of lies and *all* of the videos he brings up, Destin, Critikal, Legacy were manipulated to prove his point. None of those dudes said that Baldur's Gate has changed their expectation of the entire industry, it AFFIRMED their suspicion that all of the AAA devs have been full of shit for years and they're scared shitless now. The ONLY group that Nelson and Noodle are protecting in *their* arguments, is shareholders.
Hey I've seen you in arch's video. With all respect I think that his video was full of bad arguments and misleading information and I would like to talk to you about it. I'm not insulting you for believing it, I just want to talk
@@Gyrotaku-qt1vyBUT THE FUCKING SPLICING, THATS SHIT IS LEGITIMATE THE JOKER BEHAVIOR, INDISPUTABLE
Original video is really bad. Hes stuck on scale but the original argument was never about the scale, it was just about how good as a package bg3 was not how big it is. He complains about gamers misunderstanding that devs tweets, while completely misunderstanding those tweets and the discussion in general
yeah the first guy mentioned scale one time in his entire thread and then followed up by claiming that he was only ever referring to scale to get out of the backlash.
no you are wrong
The short of it is, Noodle turned on his own audience and is trying to gaslight them into believing an argument that nobody actually made. He sold out.
More information here.
m.ruclips.net/video/FafzxKtZ26E/видео.html
Without even looking at that video you linked I'm assuming its CJ's video where he attacks a person for making an opinion piece. An hour and 30 min video that covers about 8 min of footage from Noodles video.
@@nightsider6478Where is he wrong?
@@nightsider6478 "I'm not even going to watch the video. It's long therefore it's bad."
Okay birdbrain.
This noodle guy just sounds like a elitist or something, "I'm a dev I know about stuff but you guys are fukin idiots and dont know anything" "to be fair to most people, they arent journalist, but me tho, I know a lot"
and he keeps repeating its just the scale of the game and nothing else matters, he missed the point and tries to act like everyone else missed the point but he is the only smart one.
also one of the biggest thing I dont understand about these videos defending the devs, its always "Larian spent years with the engine and had years of early access and they spent years and years making the game, others cant do that" Why?
and noodle somehow makes a point we shouldnt even complain, we shouldnt even say if something is not fun? This guy is insane.
some AAA propaganda right here.
Noodles video is basically smoke, mirrors, and misdirection. I don't know if anyone has noticed it but he spliced the clip of LegacyKiller talking about raised expectations. I had to go back and rewatch Legacy's video and I just went livid. The dude is rearranging things just to hold up an argument that *does not exist* .
He made a 20 minute video covering every angle of the issue. You miss a lot of context when the video is cut apart like this. The general point I got from it is that pressuring developers to pack their games with content is unideal and the best thing to do is to let smaller games exist so boundaries can be tested without gambling a studio. On Noodle himself he has made an entire, really good, video on AAA abuse of workers. I think your viewpoint is valid based on what you saw, but if you watched the video alone with preconceptions aside, I think you would change your mind.
@@RedStar441I think the underlying argument makes sense and there was a surplus of evidence that it is accurate. That lone example could just be due to trying to make the video digestible to the casual consumer.
@@Trainssssssssssssssssssssssss its not an example tho, he outright spliced what LegacyKIller said to fit his narrative. That's what doesn't sit well with me and others.
@@kkcyd Correct me if I am wrong, but his video was briefly shown in a gallery of other similar videos. It would've been jarring to have slight differences between each part of the gallery. I would say this isn't too reductive. Especially since he did not intend to shame the creators just show that people actually did have the opinion he was arguing against, which he did.
18:50 I don’t think I have the strength to say it
coffee cow strikes again!
too bad noodle cut out a lot of context from the clips he showed purposefully :( used to have a lot of respect for him
You mean a line of dialogue that talks about AA and indie studios. When the focus on the video was AAA? Yea really important context cut out right there.
He really didnt the ckntext isnt changed at all by the cut
the reason the guy got flack isnt because every game has to be as big and detailed and insanely good as bg3, just that everybody should realisticially assess how big they can make a game and make that size as polished as possible. arguably even larian failed at this, making 2 acts absolutely earthshatteringly perfect and then having to rush to tie it all together with all the story options earlier in act 3, also not getting to endlessly bugtest the 3rd act to finish. they quickly delivered it after release though.
everybody is just sick of vast open worlds like bethesda or ubisoft games that are just halfassed, ugly, bugridden and even lacking storywise.
I like baldurs gate 3, but is it controversial to say it *wasn’t* a huge game? It was like, an average sized rpg. Three acts, five hub-section places for quests and sidequests. Also, it totally did have paid dlc, you can go buy it. It has a few clothes and paints and things, a few early enchanted weapons, standard rpg dlc stuff.
I believe they are refering to the scale of work put into it, not simply the length of the game or the size of the map.
I haven't played the game myself, but I've heard it has a large number of branching dialog (all voiced), along with many different skills or team compositions that all interact in many ways with each other and other systems (like the dialog). Interactions between different systems exponentially increases the complexity of a game, and that means far more money, time, and effort are required. Something most couldn't afford, or would never be allowed to take the risk to do even if they could.
i know people with 100 hours in it not having finished act 2. thats huge in my books growing up with gamecube and n64 storage.
@@Nightknight1992 I know people who lack hands too, but I fail to see your point.
@@soursylveon4784 map size isnt the only thing that can make a game huge...
@@Nightknight1992 I wasn’t referring to map size, I’m referring to content. There’s less side quests, or side objectives in general then I’d like.
The whole “we have brain flaws” argument is one that I get is hard to combat but it also really isn’t. I was addicted to and played destiny for the better part of 9 years. And there’s plenty of other franchises I have played for most of my life that I have seen go downhill over time due to obvious shareholder stress and the idea that making money outweighs a better product.
It’s not a developers fault if they are just doing what they are told. But it most definitely isn’t the consumer’s fault if they’re being exploited either. Most people don’t have gambling issues, but the issue with any addiction is most of the time it isn’t all consuming until it’s too late.
A wake up call is needed for a lot of people to realize that in all seriousness you as a consumer have literally no reason to play a game you actively do not enjoy, just because it’s from a studio you used to like. We should continue to play only what makes us happy and lift up edge case games. And the discourse that it’s a shareholder only making the developer do what they do isn’t always true. They’re people too, and people make mistakes. So calling out developers who are making fucked up exploitative game content when they are told to make as much money as possible - isn’t something that shouldn’t happen either. You just don’t have to be rude about it and give them death threats.
Ethical dilemmas aren’t a black and white issue, and both sides have responsibility to do the right thing. Government regulation would be nice but let’s be honest in the US mfs just follow the money, not what consumers want. So I say we just continue to ignore the slop and only play projects that actually have care put into the product at hand.
18:15 literally the starfield vs SM2 conversations on twitter lmaoo
That was the most non-issue I've ever heard being talked about for 40 minutes, people should expect good things from devs, and most people know that an indie dev and a triple a team require different expectations. This noodle guy's style is great but this was so dumb.
Didn’t Psychonauts 2 sell really well though? It was like 1.7million copies.
I agree, I think video game monetization should be regulated. It exploits flaws in human psychology that people can't help. It's so obviously predatory.
Noodle's video is essentially arguing with a person that doesn't exist, no one made any of these takes targeting the smaller devs or titles, everyone exclusively targeted the triple A industry specifically, and the video is filled with edits that make these people seem entitled when in reality, they are asking for triple A companies to be bigger and better, since they clearly haven't been for years.
35:20 but the gamer only likes that because they believe you. Cyberpunk a perfect example. OBVIOUSLY we would get sucked in by promises, And obviously we will be disappointed if the promises aren't reached
It seems Atrioc didn't seem to get the most important thing was to the jornalist from inside the industry (and influencers too) to do better so that people don't regurgitate wrong info.
Diablo 4 and Cyberpunk receiving a swan song for their "redemption" frustrates me to no end. My best friend loves those two games and keeps trying to tell me "just get it, it'll get better, the devs promised." No shit they promised, the games are too big to fail, they NEED to fix it. It's not because they want to do right by gamers, they don't give a shit. They just know that if they drip feed fixes and keep gamers coming back and reigniting the marketing time and time again, they can farm the IP over and over for more profit. The only game that felt like they just fucked up and felt super bad about it was No Man's Sky. They were truly indie, they didn't have the backing ActiBlizz or CDPR had. They could have dropped the game and saved their skin earlier, but they pushed through despite all the fire and flames. Activision Blizzard and CDPR don't deserve that same recognition for doing what they could afford to do, and doing what they were going to do regardless. It's not a redemption when they crashed the car intentionally knowing they have insurance to bail them out.
It pisses me off how much these companies are rewarded for their greed. Be it gacha mechanics & psychology abuse (mihoyo), stupendous levels of mtx (COD), low effort rehashes (EA Sports), or just trash releases knowing they can fix it along the way and their fans will follow them blindly (CDPR and Blizzard). But it's human to be this level of stupid and just allow it so whats the point. Baldurs Gate 3 succeeded in a bubble, but it sure as shit won't pave the way for other developers or studios to do what they did. We'll have teams splinter off of developers like Bioware or Blizzard to make their own titles, but they will always always always have a fraction of the success the original studios have.
A good example? Last Epoch can be better than Diablo 4 in every mechanical way, have more in it since it was designed as a game for gamers since the start, but they will always get eclipsed by Diablo 4 even though they spat in your face for 1.5 seasons and cried on livestreams, pleading to the community they'll be better. No matter how wronged gamers can be by Blizzard, they will always make money because their players have been conditioned to play their games since they we're the pinnacle, so going elsewhere would be going worse. Kind of like what Apple has done. They have used their reputation to keep their customers over the year, keeping them in the dark with how their phones have lagged behind in breakthroughs for so many years, are considerably more expensive for reasons that make little sense, yet if its not Apple, you're a broke ass with a green bubble.
Some of the most successful, beloved, culturally impactful games were massive in scope tho?? Witcher 3, breath of the wild, tears of the kingdom, red dead 2, GTA5, Hades, Elden Ring, ... bloody BALDUR'S GATE 3!
Yes bigger scope means bigger challenges and bigger risk but the notion that there's something fundamentally wrong with that or that we god forbid shouldn't ask for big games is ridiculous 🤡
Good point, but Hades doesn't have big scope (I love the game)
The SuperGiant games is that they make smaller games that are amazing
Lets take the least relevant of those out: Hades, botw, and totk are just not what we are talking about when we say "massive". Sure, they are large in literal world size, but that isn't the point. We are talking about the amount of individual mechanics and dialogue boxes and interactions and places and sprites and etc etc. Botw is big, but when you break it down it's just a large map with some number of monsters, some number of dungeons, and some amount of story, we arent talking about the korok seeds or things like that which are huge sure, but not in the way we are talking about.
Now lets talk about the ones here that are actually relevant: Witcher 3, RD2, GTA5, and Elden ring (sort of not really, elden ring is a bit of column a and a bit of column b). These games have an incredible quantity and quality of content to them, but they are not Balders Gate 3. They have an order of magnitude less of things such as dialogue, mocap, and hand built map. They do not have sprawling dialogue trees, they were just big and detailed, unlike the ones above which are just big. But we aren't just talking about detail, we are talking about pants-shittingly huge amounts of detail. BG3 has 6 years almost bankrupting the company levels of detail. You can't ask for that. You can ask for GTA6 to be bigger than GTA5, you can ask for Red Dead 3 to be as big as Red Dead 2, but you cannot ask for a game to be as big as Baldur's Gate 3. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with another game like BD3 being made, but it is not something that can be made on command or because the consumers want it. It's like saying "well Elon Musk sent a rocketship into space so why isn't that the standard for billionares??", it just doesn't work that way.
You are also forgetting that culturally impactful games have been coming out for a long time. Dark Souls 1 isn't a massive game neither are games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Legend of Zelda Link To The Past, Bioshock, System Shock. Hell even the big games back then aren't that big anymore such as FF7 or Chrono Trigger. There has been TONS of evidence of smaller games having huge impact but you need to look at things farther than just 10 years.
Noodle isn’t saying that games with big maps and lots of stuff are bad for the industry. He’s specifically saying that games with incredibly complex interconnected webs of things that can be done and can happen are awesome to experience, but come with massive risks for the studios working on them. His point isn’t that good games shouldn’t be made, but rather that in the current climate of the games industry where shareholder returns at everything for studios, asking for these kinds of games is a sure fire way to make sure that all of the studios ambitious enough to make them will completely fall apart.
Dude literally one of the games as your examples of massive scope=good game is hades. A masterpiece with a comparatively MUCH smaller scope.
I feel like the raised standard thing can be summed up in the following: if Lebron scores 100 points in a single game, it is an incredible, superhuman, record breaking feat, but that shouldn't become the new standard for how Lebron plays every game going forward.
That's not quite a perfect analogy. It'd be more like if one player scored 100 points in a game, and then a lot of star players throughout the league started tweeting "well don't expect ME to be doing that." Would they technically be wrong? No, we all know they're not capable of it. But it is still a *really* bad look to be saying it out loud.
@@ATXnomad698is it a bad look though, if a BUNCH of fans started tweeting about how they expect other players to score upwards of 100 points per game too?
@@ATXnomad698 But NO ONE made that argument. You're just shadowboxing with a statement that neck beards made on twitter. Devs at AAA studios are too overworked and treated like shit to care about if another game does better.
@@ATXnomad698what you're missing is the context. It wasn't say randomly it was in reaction to fans saying they should have 100 point games all the time.
@@a-iz4pgThere are lots of parallels with the movie industry. It's not a 1:1 thing but lots of similar situations imo
Chat and Atrioc kinda missed the point in this one. They’re arguing against a point that isn’t being made, which is ironically how the entire “debate” about BG3 happened in the first place.
The point is the dude made a whole video about the "drama" and then didn't really talk about what the actual gripes of the community were
yeah they are arguing against a point that wasn't being made. The reason they did that was because it was the main point of the drama, and the video failed to mention it. The video created a strawman argument and attacked it. Atrioc and chat ignored the strawman and said "this is actually why people were upset" and atrioc kept holding the video's arguments up against the actual argument. The video kinda missed the point.
The video didn't address the actual points and he ironically did the very thing he was criticizing others for.
Nah, they got the point. It's just that this entire video was made to defend the Xavier tweet, and the Xavier tweet was just ambiguous as hell and is addressing a non-existent problem.
On the release of BG3 gamers were enthusiastic and upset with AAA developers releasing shit games with microtransactions. Than Xavier tweets: "but I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward" and other developers chime in and agree. Everyone with a brain understands that Indie games can't be held to that standard, so people can only assume that they are talking about games in general, otherwise you are just making a moot point that everyone agrees with anyway. Atrioc acknowledges that in the video by spelling out what gamers are actually upset about.
The entire problem is just an ambigious tweet. If you tweet something so obvious people will assume you meant something else and read different intentions in the tweet.
If you read the tweets, he starts by saying that this shouldn't be a raised standard, then lists all the advantages larian had. It takes until halfway through his thread before he even mentions scope, and only refers to it by calling BG3 a "megagame". Then he says that it's an anomaly, and trying to mirror it could kill other developers and we shouldn't hold future RPG's to the same standard. "megagame" is not a common phrase, and it was only mentioned twice in the thread. If you miss that phrase, or don't understand it, then it reads exactly how people saw it, AND genuine triple A game devs joined in.
The problem with this video is that no one is expecting BG3 of an indie studio, but we do expect diablo 4, overwatch 2, or AC valhalla to be better when it has every single advantage that larian did x100. It is also weird to defend other triple A devs when larian is a relatively small studio compared to the supergiants like activision blizzard or EA. BG3 HAS set a new standard for AAA game quality, and although the backlash at the twitter guy was misplaced, this video ignores all the things people do want BG3 to act like a new standard for.
This was the most frustrating part for me with regards to the Noodle video as well. Both Noodle and the original IGN videos are arguing past each other against claims that were never made.
I have more problems with the Noodle video though. The idea that we should essentially just let game devs cook is just not how society works in the modern era. In my opinion, the Noodle video was poorly made, confusing, and missing the point and people eat it up because he sounds confident.
Nobody was shitting on indie or low scale games or comparing them to BG3. People are shitting on and comparing stuff like Diablo or Assassin's Creed. Games which are similarly huge with the same long list of advantages that were given in those comments, but are just the same old boardroom standard engagement metrics stuffed with as many ways as possible to get into your wallet. Those games should absolutely be held up to the standard BG3 set, which reveals them to be the garbage that they are.
No. They absolutely do not have the same list of advantages as were given, would you like to listen again? They do not have a staff of hundreds all with 2 massive games of experience making that type of game, they do not have the same custom engine for making that kind of game. Unless of course you mean that they're lower QUALITY than BG3 in which case you missed the entire point of the video because the guy agrees with that.
@aukora129 Fucking listen to yourself. Blizzard did not have hundreds of staff members with two prior titles to practice? Also I know the guy keeps talking about the size of the game, which is an awful point because literally no one loves BG3 for how big the game is. They love it for the writing, the voice acting, the care put into adapting a pen and paper system to a video game, the lack of aggressive micro transactions, and other qualitative metrics.
Also he may say he's arguing about the size of the game, but he definitely isn't. All of the advantages brought up are helping the quality of the game, not the size. An engine for making this type of game? Increases the quality. Lots of time for public and in-house testing? Quality. Existing worlds to draw on for story? Quality.
His video is one giant lesson in irony, as he spends it arguing against a position that nobody took, using arguments that have nothing to do with his position. The exact thing he's accusing other people of. He strawmans his opposition as bald, stupid neckbeards, and he very obviously has a bias against BG3 in the first place, as he takes every opportunity to insult it.
Once again, he is absolutely wrong. We should be comparing AAA games with the same advantages to BG3, and we shouldn't have to just accept garbage because of ridiculous reasons like "think of the shareholders". Have a good day.
@@aukora129 Triple A games definitely have the same advantages Larian had, if not more lol. There's over a thousand people who worked on Diablo 4. With 3 games in the same IP. Assassins creed has like 15 games. Far cry has 6. All of these studios most recent games have pretty mixed reviews from users.
@@aukora129 wasnt diablo 4's total staff count like 10x the entirety of larian studios? what are u talking about man.
@@aukora129Why are you insuating that larian is somehow the biggest baddest of the studio? It doesn't even come close to the ones people are complaining about.
Man it really feels like Atrioc is arguing against something Noodle never said. The whole video was about how games can't consistently be giant interconnected webs, and that people were making a whole bunch of videos arguing with a strawman that "Game devs scared of good game". Meanwhile Atrioc is complaining about the lack of microtransaction mentions before he even gets to that point
Exactly man, I was so confused with what atrioc was trying to say, it felt like we were watching two different videos.
Honestly Noodle was arguing about a non existent point too imo cause no one is arguing that they expect every AAA to be a massive sprawling open world but rather most people were generally annoyed/mad at the idea of excusing AAA developers for providing lackluster content when there’s smaller studios like Larian that can release genre defining games with significantly less resources (with no missing content that is pushed out as DLC). Noodle was super focused on the “size” of the games when most people wouldn’t mind a short condensed game as long as it isn’t the same thing like every other game in the same genre and incredibly broken at launch.
@@ChadWalk His point was that expecting every studio to do it just because a smaller one did it, would kill the industry. It was a massive risk-reward, and as he shows in the video other devs that made similar risk's werent so lucky, even Larian themselves almost went bankrupt 2 years ago.
Noodle isnt saying games should be broken at launch, youre having an entirely different conversation.
@@turbotoke8882 and we're saying that NOBODY ever expected all games to be huge like BG3. They were talking about the polish and lack of mtx in the game not the massive fucking size of it. noodle is arguing against a strawman while atrioc is addressing the actual opinions people had.
@@issaalaa753 no, maybe watch the video
Same with mr beast lmao. People are mad at him(even a certain irish potato)for setting the bar so high now people have to do his style of content or else engagement is low.
How ridiulous is this, be mad at youtube not him
but G4MR twitch mod legend is black wtf
“Dollars in dollars out”. Except now people allowed Microsoft and Sony to decide which dollars go in with Gamepass and Plus Extra. Tens of millions are no longer voting with their wallets to decide what gets made or not.
Gamepass is the retirement home of video gaming. You let your caretakers decide what you get to play to chump.
Baldur's Gate 3 has made about 700 million dollars. Assassin's Creed Valhalla, has made over 1 billions dollars.
I can't blame companies for taking free money from the dumbest demographic (gamers).
"YALL ARE MISUNDERSTANDING THEM" he says as he proceeds to make a video intentionally misunderstanding the criticism and expectations people have. NOBODY is saying "every game from now on should be as big in scale". IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. The biggest and most common thing is feature complete, no lootboxes, no intentionally removed content only to be repackaged as day 1 paid dlc, etc.
There's literally AAA devs being like "we don't have the infinite budget that Larian has" and the director was like "what budget", or something like that. The devs are pulling excuses out of their ass, and when they got push back they're like "ignore the 99% else that we said, we were just talking about the LARGE GRAND SCALE OF IT and nothing else", and pretending as if the entire world is full of toxic gamers who expect every game to be a 300 hour epic. None of that is based in reality. The whole video is a strawman.
I have every right to expect the world from the next Mass Effect game. Stop making excuses for studios that make garbage for more than a decade and blame their audiences for not appreciating for marvellous genius.
I feel like I'm the only one that isn't completely blown away by BG3. I get that it's good, but it's not *that* good. I enjoyed AC6 more, even though it's a much smaller game. I enoyed Starfield more too, for that matter... BG3 just feels unfocused to me.
It's so interesting how the consumer always seems to prefer slop. People prefer shitty, cheap, reality tv over expensive, well-directed shows. People prefer the [insert any name-brand] $400 luxury item even though its the same mass-produced medium quality product as the items found in a target. And Atrioc viewers prefer watching their favorite streamer watch house over that boring high-quality segment called marketing monday.
Lethal Company *outselling* Call of Duty and every other major AAA game proves that wrong.
you paused so often mid sentence that you missed the point 80% of the time, its painful to watch you fail to grasp basic spoken concepts.
What concepts? The whole point is that *NOBODY* ever said AAA games hade to be huge in scale, and Noodle has been arguing against a strawman the entire time. The phrase "raised standard" dos not imply scale at all. TL;DR noodle spliced audio clips to help support his shitty strawman argument lmaoooooo
@@EluneMusic TL;DR of comment above mine: Red-pilled CJ viewer that doesn't understand about cutting unnecessary things from quotes which is commonly used in journalism.
@@nightsider6478 what was that? Was that you addressing the fact that NOBODY said AAA games had to be huge in scale, and that the phrase “raised standard” has NOTHING to do with scale? No? Okay then stop typing :)
@@EluneMusic Raised standard means more quality and the point of noodles video was pointing out that executives, not devs, in the companies will look at this and want just bigger games without looking at the quality. Cope + Stay mad.
@nightsider6478 And stitching the video to make it look like no cut was made is also necessary? Yeah, that's not how journalism works, that's how propaganda works.
The video was very meh and preachy. The dude barely understands our issues and tries to put all developers under the same umbrella where everyone (except probably a few insane trolls) was talking about triple A development and not indy developers. Its all about the late stage capitalism ruining the art and experiences
His video was about what nelson was saykng and reiterating hks poonts
Oh my gawd this hurts to watch, like alot of other comments have pointed out, atrioc is arguing a point that Noodle never made. Atrioc is too quick to pause the video before Noodle has even finished making his point and then Atrioc keeps rambling on putting words in noodles mouth and argues against a point that was never made. Twitch chat also doesnt help...
Jesus christ atriocs take is so braind dead.
which point did he argue that noodle never made?
MoistCritical is actually the normie king who latches onto every mainstream idea lol
haha misinformation spreaded
noodle is right
This is why single player games normally win game of the year. They don’t use as many micro transactions.
And y’know what? Cosmetic micro transaction’s are AMAZING for the average player. You get to play the game for free instead of $£€60-70 because some loser will buy all the cosmetics.
Why do we care if studios go out of business?
The gaming market is huge, if the current studios can’t provide what people want then new studios will come into existence which will.
You missed the point, you don’t have to care when studios go out of business but see that most studios will not take the risk, spending milllions for a possibly unnoticed game and end up bankrupt
Nor do they owe gamers anything
@@Smokethesea studios which don’t take risks and make games which are worth playing will go bankrupt either way. There’s not enough “safe” money but there’s plenty of money in bold ideas.
Because a studio is a living thing as much as an individual developer? The studio, being made of developing talent and people, cannot be killed and resurrected at will. In the same vein of game preservation, the processes we developed to make games should be preserved.
an analogy I would use is that what you're saying is like saying "I don't care if this show im watching gets cancelled because there are plenty of other shows." There are many game series that I've loved that have died and will never have sequels because the studios went under. Also a direct example is given of a studio going out of business that did provide people with what they want, the major thing you stand to lose from a studio dying is their unique creation.
Bg3 is mid. Its just that were used to such garbage that when an overly talky mid product arrives we think its a masterpiece. And by we i mean you average gamers.