Ok Saadia, let me get this straight.. You're on the run from the Thalmor. And instead of staying in Hammerfell where your people not only drove out the Dominion and fought them to a standstill in the relative recent past, but the resistance against them continues to have strong support there - instead, INSTEAD, you come to a place where the Thalmor have an active embassy and is given leave by Imperial decree to persecute, kidnap and torture the local population on the suspicion that they might have the wrong religion? "Hey Kematu! Yeah, she's over here!"
to be fair, the books talking about the Thalmor being pushed out of Hammerfell are not up to date for Skyrim, and they note that the state of affairs was shaky at best. it's entirely possible the Thalmor have regained influence in the region since it was written.
Saadia's story doesn't make sense if you know the current lore of Tamriel. Hammerfell despises the Thalmor, even more than Skyrim does; after being sold out in the White Gold Concordat, Hammerfell continued to fight against the Thalmor and won. Warriors from Hammerfell would not accept Thalmor orders to eliminate a supposed enemy of their faction. Furthermore, Thalmor operate freely within Skyrim at the time in which most would encounter this quest (altered only by Stormcloak victory); if they wiished to hunt Saadia down, they'd do so themselves.
@@twinzzlers Balgruff supports the Empire, before outright stating as such he is still under the auspice of the Empire. As a result, his Hold legally must allow Thalmor activity.
@Burned-Legate He prefers them, but didn't actively support them until Ulfric forced his hand. Hermisker is allowed to preach freely so there's no Thalmor in his hold
There is no mystery, Saadia is lying. It's established (I believe in-game, by books) that Hammerfell fought and won against the Dominion. There are no Thalmor running Hammerfell, they were kicked out. The only reason she has to run is if she was a Thalmor collaborator. I'm a bit surprised this isn't more-known
Yeah there’s no way hammerfell would have Aldmeri Dominion executions. And why would you send assassins to capture someone to put them on trial? Her story is nonsense
@@Scowleasy I fully think that Saadia is lying, but I don't think Kematu is being truthful either. Afterall he said that she would be moved back to Hammerfell for trial, but you will find her body in Whiterun's hall of the dead afterwards. Basically, both sides are liars.
@doodlebug4360 that one is kinda easy to explain it's when a named character gets sent to the box that will despawn npc so in lore she could be getting sent while in game her items get sent to that area
@@doodlebug4360 This was pointed out, and explained, in this very video. It's a function of how Skyrim was coded to handle "important" NPCs that aren't given an essential flag. The game just considers her to be dead when she's taken out of the world, so it generates an urn for her even if it shouldn't. It's not proof of anything other than Bethesda's very typical lack of polish and care.
Yup. The best outcome of a quest is "don't start it" I have Ebony Warrior guard the gates of Whiterun (that's where i visit the most). Those vampires don't stand a chance.
The thing about Kematu that seemed off to me was his desire to avoid bloodshed, despite 1. Taking up with bandits 2. Leaving a man behind and 3. What that man says about "to meet Kematu is to meet your end". I suppose it could be that he has simply purposefully built a reputation for himself, and that he's actually more peaceful than he let's on, but it could be that he's lying to you to get what he wants. He's obviously charismatic or intelligent enough to get strong fighters to follow him, so him crafting this story of a desire of peace and justice doesn't seem impossible.
Could easily be he wants to avoid unnecessary bloodshed/his men dying He says that after the dragonborn cuts a bloody path through bandits so he's clearly capable and fighting could end with the Redguards loosing men
To be fair paying bandits for a low key base is only reasonable in a country you aren't from that has a very ideological civil war and unreliable safety everywhere including the thalmor.
The dude who was left behind elaborates that he was left because Kematu had a principle that he and his group are "supposed to be the best", and that dude admits that he did something that got them kicked out of Whiterun. In other words, he failed to uphold Kematu's standards and got the rest of the group in trouble so he got kicked out for insubordination. Kematu also is consistently very logical and professional as even in random encounters with members of his group, where they apologize for getting the wrong person during their search rather than do any ruffian antics. We also don't give any indication to the discharged member that we might be going to him for negotiation, so just assumes we're off to fight him.
@@joshuakim5240 They apologize? I hear then admit that they have the wrong person, but they also act like it's partly the woman's fault that they made a mistake.
Haven't watched the full vid yet but I side with the Alik'r because Saadia contradicts herself. She's surprised they tracked her down but then she mentions she heard one of them was caught trying to sneak into the city. Probably a mistake by Bethesda but if purposeful it comes across like she's well aware and is just using the character to get rid of them.
She probably assumed the first one that was arrested was a scout, just sniffing around; leaving immediately in that case would have burned her cover. Hearing from the player that there were now *more* is what set her off.
@KingBuilder525 is it impossible the 2 ruling factions at war in hammerfell, could 1 faction be allied with the thalmor? Yeah, just look at the modern history of the middle east and Africa. 😅
@@joestrummer4106 The Thalmor hiring random redguards to kill a woman who denouced them 20 years ago (things that most redguards probably did in the same time too) make no sense. Why would they hire redguards to go to Skyrim when they could just sent some Justiciars or Khajiits assassins? Also, the 2 rulings factions of Hammerfell, who were usually rivals, allied themselves during the war to beat the Thalmor's ass.
The urn in Whiterun makes sense, though. Look at it from Whiterun's perspective - she probably never left the city normally. Then she heads out and vanishes, during a time with massive turmoil *and* dragons just returned and one literally just attacked the city and trashed a guard tower. That's going to look like she died. If anyone decided to have any sort of a service, then they'd probably set up an urn for her in the hall of the dead as part of their funeral rites.
If ES6 does actually end up taking place in Hammerfell as some have theorized, I suspect we'll be able to visit the town in question and see which is the case.
It's simple logic to understand who's lying and telling the truth. In game books talk about hammerfell fighting the aldmeri dominion after the empire agreed to the concords and was renounced as a province of yhe empire. Hammerfell won and kicked the dominion out. With that information know her story is bullshit. If she was against the thalmor staying in hammerfell would make more sense than leaving to skyrim where the thalmor have more power and control. She's a traitor simple as that only reason she would leave hammerfell and be hunted down by hammerfell agents in the Alkari.
@@cuttlefish6839 my only question about that is why would saadia say that if it's just blatant bullshit? i feel like something like that would not be difficult or unlikely for our character to know. if she's already lying why wouldn't she go with a lie that actually makes sense? what if the thalmor knew her location in hammerfell and hired the mercenaries since they were unable to operate there, then they just followed when she fled to skyrim, where the thalmor have no idea where she is?
My first time playing Skyrim, I sided with Saadia exclusively because the Alik'r gave me bad vibes, since they said, "Don't worry about it. Look, money!" when I asked why they were looking for her. I just assumed that if you had to bribe people to not look into your reasons, then your reasons are not good. Which is still not necessarily untrue.
My same thoughts. I only listened to the first 10 or so minutes of the video since it popped up on my recommended and I thought “wait, that storyline isn’t black and white? I thought the Alik’r were obviously the antagonists, especially given how often they harass random women on the roads! What did I miss?!” Lol. So now I’m stopping the video and finding out for myself before coming back!
@blackzero786 I don't give that part of this much credence. Kematu is furious if you kill Saadia after agreeing to help capture her. It seems more likely that the urn is a matter of lazy coding - i.e. Saadia is marked "dead" so she won't come back, but the urn automatically appears because she has been marked "dead".
I’ve never really trusted Saadia, simply due to the fact that, why would the thalmor send a band of mercs to kill her if all she did was speak out. She wasn’t a resistance leader by her own admission merely a person who spoke out. They’ve only sent single assassins to take care of targets as stated by Fizhy. Even for the Dragon born they sent an assassin not assassins. Even during the attempted assassination of the dragon born. The other hostile enemies in the Ratway were actual Thalmor agents not more hidden assassins. The dragon born and the blades were actual threats not just dissidents like Saadia claims she is. So why a band of mercs?
There could be reasons we're not aware of. Like, if the Thalmor started trying to get her while she was in Hammerfell, they probably needed the mercs because the Thalmor aren't allowed to operate openly there like they are in Skyrim, and an assassination in Hammerfell against someone that spoke out against them would implicate them. If that's the case, the mercs were probably hired because it would leave signs that it wasn't the Thalmor that did it. But then Saadia caught wind of the mercs and escaped to someplace the Thalmor wouldn't think to look for her, and the mercs probably followed her without notifying the Thalmor because doing so would risk losing their payment since if she's in a country where the Thalmor can move about freely, they'd no longer need the mercs and would just send assassins like they do with the Dragonborn.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrinceso they target someone who isn't important based on her own admission that spoke out about the thalmor... but didn't target all the main leaders of hammerfell who not only spoke out but also fought back and drove them out of hammerfell. That's pretty retarded
I figured that if either were who the other said they were that there'd be Thalmor directly involved in the quest. Due to no Thalmor, I think both are lying.
@@taylorslade961 its not that hard to read and understand, unless you've got learning difficulties. Give the dude a break, it is only a RUclips comment section after all and not a school or workplace where everything needs to be correct😂
I think it's clear on the thamlor situation she isn't an ally of the thamlor but an informat, someone who possibly turned on the city for gold. It doesn't mean she is an employee of the thamlor but overall a traitor.
Despite being aware of most of this and not being typically interested in lore videos for Skyrim, I really like your content and how it's executed. You do summaries and explanations very well.
"Don't allow yourself to be fooled by a pretty face." But here's the thing, he says that to you even if you go straight to the Alikir immediately after finding Saadia and hadn't meet Kematu at all.
The more I've looked into this quest and read people's opinion about it and the more I'm convinced that the devs never intended to have actual right or wrong sides. The only goal was simply to leave players wondering if they made the right choice. And it's working, people are still discussing whether Saadia or Kematu is the liar while Bethesda never intended to decide on the matter.
Best comment. Sometimes I feel youtubers are overanalyzing TES universe. But it's not a real world which can be analyzed to any degree of details. It's just build to seem that way (sometimes). However this video I liked.
But this and the civil war both do have correct answers. The only evidence we have that the redguard men are lying is by way of Joe the game was coded leaving an Urn in the hall of the dead. Everything else we know leads to the other conclusion and that’s how these things should work
Its kind of annoying though, there is no way in the game to really make a moral decision, you just kind of guess either way. To me the correct decision in this quest is to not get involved at all. I wish there was a way to investigate further, even if it was still not a black and white situation. Like maybe you can tell saadia what they told you and she can defend herself or something. It just feels like the player is an absolute outsider in this and I dont like it
@tele337 Agree. IRL you could for example inform Jarl Balgruf about accusation of Saadia by Kematu. Or send a letter to Hammerfel asking if Kematu works for them or for Thalmor. Fortunately, there is still that option to not get involved.
She claims: - She is a noble of House Suda - "The Alik'r are assassins in the employ of the Aldmeri Dominion." - She is targeted for speaking against the Thalmor He claims: -Saadia is known for constantly changing her name. * Saadia is wanted by the noble houses of Taneth for treason. * "She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war." What we know to be objective fact: - The Great War ended with the Empire in 4E 175 30th of Frostfall and the White Gold Concordat - Hammerfell however kept fighting alone until 4E 180 which ended with the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai (the terms included the full withdrawal of Dominion forces from Hammerfell) - 4E 172 - In Hammerfell, the Thalmor consolidated their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out. The survivors of the March of Thirst regrouped in northern Hammerfell, joined by reinforcements from High Rock. - 4E 173 - A Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of Hegathe (a Crown city), leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. Despite this, Lady Arannelya's main army succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert. The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance. - 4E 175 - The Battle of the Red Ring results in the complete destruction of the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil, a victory for the Empire precipitating the end of the Great War. The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war. The Great War ends with the White-Gold Concordat. The Concordat is a peace treaty between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. The terms of treaty gave the Thalmor free rein to stamp out the worship of Talos throughout the Empire, and ceded a large section of southern Hammerfell. Critics note that these terms are almost identical to the ultimatum that Titus Mede II rejected at the start of the war. Hammerfell leaves the Empire after rejecting the White-Gold Concordat.[4] Titus II renounces Hammerfell as a province of the Empire to preserve the treaty after the Redguards oppose ceding their lands. The Redguards see this as a betrayal, and a lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire is sown to the delight of the Thalmor. Hammerfell continues to war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years and southern Hammerfell is left devastated. 4E 180 - The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai is signed.[4] - Having been fought to a standstill by the Redguards, the Aldmeri Dominion completely withdraws from Hammerfell. Also, through the cooperation between Forebearers and Crowns, the civil war in Hammerfell ends. Despite the signing of the Treaty of Stros M'kai, Kematu claims that the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell. Kematu might only be parroting what he was told to say, and is taking her back to be investigated before they proceed with the trial. Kematu might have been ordered to lay low while in Skyrim searching for her, due to the Civil War, the lack of allieship between Skyrim and Hammerfell after the Great War, and the heavy presence of the Thalmor. Saadia does look young for her supposed age in order for her to have had a role in working with the Dominion. However, youth wouldn't have absolved her actions especially if the Thalmor used that against her and played on her naivety in order to get her to cooperate with them. Maybe she thought she was trying to stop the conflict but made it worse. Regardless, even if she was a teenager, costing the lives of thousands in a war is still treason. Also, video games have this phenomenon of depicting age in female characters as either older women that look 52 or those that are young and look 25 with no middle ground. She could very well be in her 30s or early 40s. Purely Hypothetical: Let's say she lost a lot in the war, and upon the Empire abandoning Hammerfell to fight alone she lost a lot of hope until she was given an "opportunity" to help the Dominion end the war fast and minimize casualties, to which a distraught and desperate teenager wanting to save her home might've been more than willing to jump on, especially if maybe a family member was hostage or whatever. So it's some point between 175-179 Hammerfell and she is 16 years old, that means in Skyrim 4E 201 (during ES:V Skyrim) she's currently 42 at her oldest and 38 at youngest given that timeframe and the estimated age of 16 but she could've been younger or older. Which her body language, voice actor and mannerisms fit someone who's been on the run for most of their life, (Since 180, 21 years.) Taking this info into account Saadia is clearly the traitor from my perspective. Kematu might not be telling all the truth or hiding some other motive but Saadia is just bluntly lying and hoping Nord (assuming you play as one) ignorance protects her from the truth being exposed.
Excellent explanation! This is so rich and full of detail I can always appreciate this. When you actually go into the psychological warfare of Saadias testimony it becomes so unbelievably clear she's BSing the player. Saadias words, her contradicting story, and especially her sudden change in demeanor is very telling (but not 100% indicative) of a liar. She goes from a panicked demeanor to cool and calculated to suddenly playing dumb. It's funny because Saadia does actually spill the truth to the player regarding the Alikr dragging her back to Hammerfell for an 'execution' despite them being assassins. Also when you really investigate the situation there's next to no shot the Dominion would have nor could have hired out the Alikr as assassins.
@@akale2620Except for the fact the Thalmor are noted Racial Supremacists who believe themselves above the rest of Tamriel. To their mind, why should they care about the fate of one random traitor, particularly one who is not Altmer. They've already gotten their use out of her and can freely let her face the consequences of her treason. One could even make the argument that Saadia might've tried to gain sanctuary with the Thalmor when she arrived in Skyrim, only to be told in no uncertain terms to go away and not further pollute the area with her presence.
You made up a "purely hypothetical" story, then from that determined that "Saadia is clearly the traitor". You've also ignored evidence to the contrary by making excuses about video game logic.
We have to remember too that just because Saadia is almost certainly lying, that doesn't automatically mean that Kematu is telling the truth. I'm personally of the mind that both parties aren't being truthful and are just spinning us a story they think will get us to help them since we're a pretty clear threat to both their lives at the time we meet them. The main difference between the two is that Kematu is the more skilled liar.
If she really was working with the Thalmor, you'd expect there to be some dossier on her. Or Kematu, for that matter. Which there isn't. The Thalmor are implied to be pretty extensive record keepers, so the fact that there's nothing about them related to this quest feels like they weren't involved directly. My personal theory is that both "sides" think the other is working for the Thalmor and paranoia led to tragedy.
If the Aldmeri Dominion wanted Sadia dead. They'd sent some Thalmor agents, be they a squad of justicars or a hired assassin. They wouldn't hire Redguard mercenaries.
And because Whiterun is technically under Imperial control (without any civil war shenanigans) the Jarl will have to let it happen if the Thalmor came knocking and was like "yeah, this redguard is a wanted criminal by the Thalmor"
After thinking about it, I think it’s almost certain than Saadia is lying but Kematu is certainly twisting events too. I think that Saadia was only meant to be a young girl when the betrayal happened, not because she betrayed her duty to the Dominion but because her family did. And whether they were caught after Hammerfell’s victory or not, they were branded traitors and Saadia remains the only survivor of her family decades later. So the reason why Kematu is the sole driving force of pursuing interest rather than the entire Redguard aristocracy is because he, perhaps due to being wronged because of the betrayal such as losing a loved one who might otherwise have survived, is the only one who actually wants to see the entire family brought to “justice.” Everyone else in Hammerfell is content that they got the main traitors and stripped them of power but Kematu is on a personal quest for vengeance determined to hunt every last member of the House down. That’s the only way I can rationalise all these different pieces together, at least.
For me the best option keeping Saadia alive. When you keep her alive there's a bug where the 2 redgaurds that appear at the entrance in whiterun will stay there forever. This is helpful when you have vampires annoyingly attacking at night they will help protect the city and will be a buffer to keep a few other people in the city alive. And they come back if they die.
"Don't allow yourself to be fooled by a pretty face" well that could also apply to him whether bc of one's proclivities or bc you find him charismatic enough lol. It's hard to tell with these things if they weren't fleshed out or intentionally just like that when it comes to Bethesda.
First we should look at the time frames involved. 1) Skyrim starts 4E 201 2) Great War 4E 171-175 3) Taneth captured by Aldmeri forces, late 4E 171, held into 4E 172 4) 2nd Treaty of Stros M’Kai: officially ended hostilities between Hammerfell and Aldmeri Dominion (original borders are kept) 5) Taneth is ruled by a king, unless appointed to official positions nobles don’t have any authority 6) Alik’r Desert : a large area of Hammerfell known for lawlessness and hard living. 7) Kematu claims to be hired by a group of nobles from Taneth- no known official status, he leads a mercenary group not affiliated with Taneth. 8) Saadia is of a minor noble house in Taneth Saadia is accused of working for the Thalmor at the time that the city was lost, which would make her a preteen at best, probably younger. Why does someone like Kematu acting on “official duties “ hide in a bandit lair? That doesn’t sound legal. No official documents but his word? A writ from the King of Taneth or even the High King in Sentinel would be what was legally required. Not being hired by a bunch of nobles probably trying to take care of a feuding between house in Taneth. I find that this quest is confusing as to the time lines from lore, it makes it seem that the actions involved occurred just 5 years earlier when it was 3 decades ago. Saadia is more credible because of these errors in lore. (Confecture) I could make up lore that she was attacked by the scion of another noble house, she defended herself with her “virgin dagger” received a slash to the cheek but she maimed the scion and his house wants revenge for the slight by this woman. Leaving with a small bag or two of gems and jewelry could keep her well for years. As for Saadia working in an inn as a barmaid. It’s the best location to learn information. The local guards will gossip a so will others. If you follow her day she does shop (marketplace gossip is amazing) and also visits the Shrine to Talos.
@@SunnyBunny148 Taneth was attacked from the sea, then isolated by Redguard forces, occupied by less than a year. That information isn’t shown. That is harder for a child to help with. There was a notorious Thieves Guild in Taneth as well, just don’t know there presence in the last century. They once robbed and killed the High Queen of Hammerfell, she came from Taneth. I doubt if they were allowed to remain after that. Not much lore available.
@@SunnyBunny148 All kings have retainers that are used for “wet work”, but are left without recognition. To hire a bunch of mercenaries is sloppy, as you would want it done without possible loose lips. Alik’r mercenaries are also known to get involved with jobs for less than suitable individuals. With CC being pseudo lore there are at least two that deal with at least stolen Imperial artifacts. A note to the Emperor with a request of quiet support with the Pentius Occulatus would be all that is needed and that it was an internal matter that required delicacy. The Pentius Occulatus would do the scouting and report back and then the “special agent” would be informed and that would take the matter to completion. Both Highrock and Hammerfell have similarities to the Italian city states of the Renaissance. There are multiple family towers and feuding like in “Romeo and Juliet” was based on fact. Look at images of San Gimignano in Italy, that’s only the remaining towers. They fought against internal enemies and factions, not external. There is a mention in one book about the family towers (not villas) of Taneth from which the internecine feuding seems like a reality by the lore.
Internal inconsistencies in TES are rampant, but I'm with you, here: the timeline doesn't fit (even if an inconsistency, I don't care, I'm playing my character not the meta). Saadia is lying because she's been on the run since before her temporal lobe came in and she's had to lie for most of her life. The Alik'r are lying because they're the ones after her, for whatever reasons. Frankly, most of my chars keep out of it, unless they're of the background I RP that means they'd have some knowledge or reason to get involved. My personal opinion, based on this timeline (in part) is that they are both lying (she uses the Thalmor want me lie because that's the most likely thing to stir up the blood in Skyrim; she's observant) and that other than that, it's impossible to know, although his "pretty face" comment and his "you had to know that..." in a friendly-ish tone makes me think... there's a previous relationship involved and this isn't "official" at all but a case of her possibly having killed a member of Taneth's royal family, likely a son and that this "assassin" knew why. She has clearly had to defend herself at some point, whether for nefarious or genuine defence reasons. Then you add in the lore from TES: Blades which has your char being an ex-Blade hiding out somewhere in Hammerfell, rebuilding a wee town somewhere near Taneth. Hm, indeed.
With this logic, all Thalmor-related quest prepare us for a ES6 in Aldmeri Dominion and all refugees tales in Windhelm prepare us to go to Black Marsh or back to Morrowind ...
I think it’s pretty explicitly clear that Saadia is the liar. She claims that she’s on the run from the Dominion in Hammerfell… but the AD hasn’t had influence there in years, she is incredibly defensive and hostile to the player while Kematu is remarkably frank about his side of the story,* it doesn’t exactly make sense that the AD being Altmer supremacists would hire a bunch of redguard Alik’r rather than simply send a group of justiciars when they already have a presence in Skyrim and if you kill Saadia, Kematu is audibly annoyed that she won’t be able to stand trial - which is a weird commitment to a LARP if he’s really just a Thalmor agent seeking to silence one of their critics. There are also a bunch of details which I’ve forgotten since I last played the game but I remember stacking them all up and it just feeling so, so clear that Saadia was being shown to be the liar. * Not that it’s impossible Kematu is just a good liar or that she wouldn’t have reason to be suspicious if she was telling the truth, to be clear. It’s more that when you take it into account with everything else, it seems far more plausible that she’s being shifty because she’s guilty rather than being unjustly persecuted.
Your argument is irrelevant whether she's guilty or not Hammerfell has no jurisdiction in Skyrim which means their soldiers and mercs have no right to pursue her there if they want her captured they need to send word to Jarl Elesif (standing high queen of Skyrim)
Maybe Saadia was arranged to be betrothed to Kematu. It would explain why he does not want her dead, however, it does explain why his demise would resolve her problems. Just my own fan theory of the real story behind the story.
Just imagine if instead of a barmaid, Saadia replaced Tilma as the caretaker for the companions. She lied about her background to the companions and now uses them as protection without their knowledge. Then you not only get choices on who to side with but also receive consequences based on your actions like; - convince the companions of her true nature and let us take her, - plan a kidnapping and lead the alikr through the secret exit under the skyforge (option only for member of inner circle) - trick Saadia into leaving of her owm accord like vanilla quest - demand the companions hand her over and if they refuse challenge someone of Saadia's choice to single combat
You forgot to mention: There is a random encounter in the open world where Alikir warriors shake down a random redgaurd woman they thibk is Sadiea until the realize theor nistake and walk away. They're being quite agressive in this search and causing a lot of truble, regardless if their cause is just or not.
Honestly, when playing Skyrim LE, I just liked having the Alik'r warriors hanging out at the entrance of Whiterun to defend against vampire attacks. I believe that only happens if you side with Saadia.
I enjoy this quest a lot, but ultimately i feel like the Alikir is the correct one. sure there's enough to make you question it, but at the same time Saadia seems to be relying on us not knowing what they are, which is to be expected for someone in Skyrim I suppose. but any research into the topic makes her entire case seem to rely purely on the player's ignorance of the current state of Hammerfel.
To me is a matter of how much my character knows about the lore of Tamriel. I usually play a Breton spellcaster of humble beginnings. I figured he learned a lot about alchemy from his gardener grandfather and that gave him the jumpstart to attempt a serious study of enchanting, destruction and Illusion. Once he understood he simply didn't have the connections to become a court mage, he simply decided to try his luck in the more primitive province of Skyrim where he might find better opportunities. Even if he's well read on magic lore, I don't think he would be well versed on geopolitical events. At the end of the day, Saadia is a seemingly well to do lady at the local tavern in Whiterun. She leads a quiet life and only asks for help after you find out the Alik'r warriors are chasing her. The Alik'r don't have a good reputation in Whiterun. Apparently, they did something very disruptive to the public peace. They live in a bandit hideout and Kematu treats you with a lot of innuendo bordering on disrespect. You already know how to shout by the time you start the quest so Kematu should be wary of your prowess. Even so, he still decides to throw threats at you. That seals his fate. Saadia might have spied for the Thalmor but at least she knows not to find out when it comes to the Dragonborn.
For the reason why Saadia would betray, she is a noble, and maybe she hoped to become the noble ir noble family leading the city after the Thalmor take over. She would become the proxy leader of the city, a puppet of the Thalmor, but someone with power in the end.
Alik’r prisoner tells you Kematu will kill you (for no reason). “Simply knowing his name is to know death”. ‘If you goto Swindlers Den you’ll not return.’ For someone that knows Kematu better than anyone else we interact with it doesn’t seem he’s as pleasant as he makes himself out to be. Keeping in mind the prisoner has no reason to protect us since we pay for his release after we’re told this and before we goto Kematu. If anything he’s the only person in this quest that seems genuine. As a mercenary we don’t really know Kematu true motives. For all we can tell he’s hired for more nefarious reasons and just puts on a good act to accomplish his goal. In the end all we see is no better than hit squad black bagging their target for reasons mostly unknown. I’ve sided with both and don’t have a good feeling with either. I generally side with Saadia because it keeps the tavern more populated.
Of course, he is a failed former member of Kematu's band. He may be trying to get the pc to buy his freedom and serve up some -righteous justice- sweet revenge at the same time.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that they are violating the sovereignty of Whiterun. Saadia is under the protection of Jarl Baalgruuf, and Kematu is a unwanted criminal mercenary trying to kidnap a person.
Nice video mate. Been waiting for you to drop another one personally I’ve always kept her in the town in my vanilla Playthrough always just adds a little bit more in terms of the people hanging around town. One of the things I dislike about vanilla Skyrim is how empty the towns feel
3:11 just had the sudden realization that's the voice of Wonder Woman from the Justice League animated series (DCAU)... looked it up and I was right. Can't believe I never noticed before.
Kematu doesn’t have details because he’s likely one of many mercenary groups sent after her. Skyrim is one continent in a huge world if they are going to find someone in the world they will need more then 10 dudes looking for her and her crimes would probably be explained in detail at the actual trial and execution. Makes more sense to give the mercenary leaders a overview of her betrayal rather then go in depth with details for each group
"Blend in as much as 6 feet tall cat people typically can" Incidentally, as the most naturally gifted in stealth of the races, that's ostensibly quite a lot.
I usually end up siding with Saadia for a few reasons 1) They start refusing to tell you why they are looking for her. That is sketchy especially in neutral Whiterun where the Jarl literally says he does not care about who the elves want to execute. He has no reason to have guards reject their entry. 2) Saadia does not offer you a reward (even though she does) she asks for your help. But then you go to Klaamatu who 3) immediately accuses her of hiring you or indulging your *ahem* base urges. And then 4) Offers you money to betray her. THAT is sketch. So to me it seems odd that if Saadia is with the Dominion she is in neutral White Run and not the closer Dominion aligned Solitude. I can see her trying to get to Windhelm and then being stuck in Whiterun when the mercs catch up. Now here’s what I reason from all this. If Klaamatu is lying Saadia is likely going to (at best) a kangaroo court intent on killing her anyway. If Saadia is lying she is still living in exile in a place where she is now a servant and not any sort of Hammerfell royalty of any rank. Saadia is therefore already suffering a punishment and siding with her is doing the least amount of harm.
Very good video. I approve of you reading the dialogue option you select out loud, and solving the problem with logic that doesn't require knowing a bunch of tes lore.
Kematu is. If you know lore Hammerfell definitely does not support the Aldmeri Dominion and actually successfully rebelled against the Empire and fended off the Dominion. In truth during the conflict she betrayed her people and sided with the Dominion and when they lost she went on the run as a fugitive. Kematu's forces are there to capture her and bring her back to Hammerfell to stand trial for her crimes. If you kill her he gets pissed. Which goes against her story.
Saadia's betrayal was probably along the lines of "I'll open the gate for you, if you let me flee with my life." If Tanith was under seige for years, the Thalmor may have frustrated enough to accept the deal. Kematu does say the city would have "held" after all.
I’ve never believed Saadia in this quest line. Sure, Kematu isn’t above suspicion, but the narrative Saadia herself presents just makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor bring mercenaries from another nation to hunt down a fugitive in a country where they have an established presence? And sure, Whiterun is basically neutral in the Civil War and we can assume Balgruuf doesn’t allow Thalmor in the city based on the fact that Heimskr can get away with openly preaching. But that still wouldn’t justify using the Alik’r of all people. Surely they’d go through local nord mercenaries who can enter Whiterun unnoticed? The narrative of why Saadia betrayed her city is a little undercooked, but my thinking is that she didn’t believe that Hammerfell could win against the Dominion if the whole Empire couldn’t, so she worked with the Thalmor in hopes of preserving her own (and maybe her family’s) power after their victory. If you can’t beat em, join em.
Its the end of the mission on kematus side that made me choose to do the mission that way from then on. He says she didnt think she could get away with manipulating people forever and not to be fooled by a pretty face. That doesnt sound like the words of someone whos an assassin. Its sounds like the disapproving words of a jailer. Not to mention she says she can continue her ruse. Which doesnt sound quite right.
I think there's a political aspect to this that you overlooked. Since Hammerfell refused to let the Dominion take over, the Empire basically kicked them out to avoid violating the concordat. The Alik'r got kicked out because they're a foreign power who came waltzing into Whiterun and attempted to extract a citizen without permission; as they're no longer part of the Empire previous arrangements would no longer be honoured, and it's pretty clear that Saadia is *some* kind of Thalmor agent or quisling. Because she's hiding in an at least nominally Imperial-aligned hold, the Empire would be obligated to refuse any official petition because the Thalmor would pressure for it. Much like Elenwen tries to pressure for Ulfric's handover because he's a former asset who still serves their purposes at the beginning of the game!
It's worth pointing out that Kematu says she sold out the city during "the War." He doesn't specify the "Great War," so it's possible he's referring to Hammerfell's continued fight against the Dominion after the peace treaty. Not the most solid explanation, but it does somewhat narrow that time gap you took issue with. That said, I cooked up a little theory that you seemed to imply but skirt around towards the end there. Maybe Saadia was to be married off to Kematu but didn't want to. She fled from Hammerfell and Kematu, incensed by her rejection, took his Alik'r warriors with him to track her down, intending on bringing her back to force her into marriage. They both made up the story about the other being in cahoots with the thalmor to sway whatever adventurers get caught up in their political drama. That's why Saadia says the problem is gone with Kematu's death and Kematu is pissed if Saadia is killed.
I was going to say, saadia can be heard calling Hulda "mother". For me this makes it quite clear she is young. Hulda is getting ready to retire, but she is not an elder, so it makes sense to me that Hulda would be around 50. It would be kinda weird for Saadia to call someone her own age mother after building a close relationship. Sister would be more fitting. So this would completely rule out the great war theory, unless she is around 30 and sold them out as a child.
This is false, it’s a proven fact they don’t know her personally. This why they were harassing random red guard women until the confirmed Saadia is the correct person
the correct choice is to side with kematu until he hands over the gold, then to kill him and use a calm spell on sadia to also get her money edit: damn you referenced it a minute after i paused to comment this lol
My headcanon is that Kematu is a bounty hunter type who wants to try selling Saadia to some group in Hammerfell, and Saadia was telling the truth about being a wanted woman while lying and generally being sneaky towards the player. Because right, if Kematu represents the law, killing him shouldn't affect anything, but it does. So he must be some self interested party impersonating a Hammerfell authority. Amd Saadia is a shady manipulative person, but if she's telling the truth about being wanted by the Aldmeri (alive so they can extract info first or smth, they do that kind of thing) then everything makes sense. Idk though, maybe it wasn't supposed to add up Whatever Saadia did, I bet it wasn't as virtuous as she claims, but I bet Kematu isn't an agent of the law either, so fortune seeker / political prisoner seems like the most fitting dynamic. Explains why he will hire bandits too Also could explain Kematu's policy about leaving behind a captured ally, and why that warrior felt he had to restart his whole life. Seems more like a policy and reaction you'd see from a troup of plunderers than from agents of justice, weighing the two possibilities I guess what I'm saying is, I think they're both lying, and Kematu wants to try selling Saadia not send her to a fair trial, and Saadia doesn't want anyone to know what she really did
@@SunnyBunny148 good point! And if Kematu was part of a lawful effort to detain Saadia, everyone trying to find her would share information. But Kematu keeps those details away from others which is weird if they're trying to achieve justice, but makes perfect sense if they're disconnected bounty hunters! And Kematu knows he has the best odds of finding her and wants to keep his advantage, and Saadia knows he is her main threat due to their past connection. Hmmmm! Realistically the other red guards are probably just dumb because it's Skyrim, but it's so fun to speculate!
If I remember she did what she did to avoid more bloodshed to her people because she knows that her people would sacrifice themselves than become someone's slave
For me it looks like familial vendetta - Saadia's family betrayed Hammerfell and was wiped out with Saadia being the only survivour, fleeing her whole life. Doesn't sound good enough to convince foreign bystander now, right?
I always thought that i makes the most sense that they're both lying. Maybe shes a runaway bride? With hammerfell being based on Middle eastern culture the concept of honor killing doesn't feel too crazy. Think of it like this she was in an arranged marriage upon meeting her husband he turns out to be an abusive a hole leaving her with a facial scar. She runs off to skyrim breaking the marriage arrangements and leaving her family dishonored. In retaliation they mark her for death.
I side with Saadia, not because I necessarily believe her but because I don't think the Alik'r provide enough evidence that Saadia is guilty of anything. Further, they have no legal jurisdiction in Skyrim and are clearly not trying to work with local authorities to extradite Saadia.
My exp with this was i sided with sadia because - when i surrendered her to the Alikr then after they all de-spawn you can find Sadia's coffin inside the Whiterun. - i dont know if thats just bethasda despawning her OR they made it that way to play with our imagination.
To be fair, the people of Whiterun could’ve just thought she was dead since she went missing. Imagine if a worker of the local inn disappears one night and is never seen again. I doubt Kematu would just return the body to Whiterun after she faces Justice in Hammerfall.
I’m of the opinion that Saadia is wanted in Hammerfell, and she had worked with the Aldmeri dominion but may not have done so knowingly. Got pulled in by an agent and had to flee because she was associated. Komatu obviously can’t say she’s going to be executed because of guilt by association as that wouldn’t be very likely to get our cooperation and he is a mercenary. Her reaction to being tricked is shocked betrayal, her reaction upon being told they are coming for her spells out a picture of a woman trying to find a place to live but can’t.
Unless im stupid i think you skipped over the possibility that the fact that he wants Saadia alive could very well be that he is only paid if she is brought back alive.
I usually end up just avoiding this quest because no matter who i side with i end up feeling like i chose wrong. Can’t make a wrong decision if i just don’t make a decision 😅
even if her story doesnt add up, i still tend to side with saadia. ultimately, the alik'r are a band of morally dubious warriors who come to another land to hunt a woman down, threatening anyone who even remotely matches her description (as seen in a random event where you can find a couple alik'r interrogating a random redguard woman on the road) and at least committing some kind of crimes to get one of their own arrested. even if its possible that saadia has worked for the thalmor in the past, i cannot justify assisting a shady group of men kidnap a woman who, by all rights, has done nothing wrong by me or anyone else in skyrim since her arrival there.
@@dutchpatriot17 sure but if a band of shady mercenaries showed up in Argentina asking for you to help them kidnap a woman for being a secret nazi with no evidence, you wouldn’t help them, right?
Another telling part is that these are specifically Alik'r Warriors, meaning they arent from the area around Taneth. I get that theyre mercs, but they seem to be hunting her on personal grounds as well.
We've already had hammerfell featured in 3 or 4 ES games(as far as I remember) They won't have the setting there. If that one slow zoom in, fake trailer that dropped like 6 years ago by Beth was any consolation, the setting is most likely going to be highrock, summerset isle, or maybe another land altogether.
Every time I am reminded of this quest I think back to when I tried to join an elder scrolls forum online and thought it’d be fun to ask a question about this quest and everyone basically told me its “been talked about a hundred times already, shut up” and so I deleted my account and got really sad 😂
I always just assumed the Thalmor wasn't actually involved in this quest at all, they're just a convinient lie used by Saadia. I think they're both lying, but for different reasons. I do think Saadia is genuinely the victim in that situation, perhaps fleeing Hammerfell from an aranged marriage, or maybe she was targetted there for other reasons. I do think the Alik'rs are exactly what she says they are, that being assassin's, but they weren't hired by the Thalmor, or officially to bring her back, my guess, they were an under-the-counter hire by someone from a noble house, now whether it's to drag her back home, or outright murder her, I can't say for sure.
I've been coming back to this quest for the least 13 years and my only conclusion is a mistrial of insufficient writing from Bethesda if I had to guess they were going for Saadia to be guilty but dropped the ball in further elaborating it
Why aren't they welcome in Whiterun? Because whiterun sides with the legion, and the alik'r are indeed from the rebellion in hammerfell. The alik'r are telling the truth.
@@justanuff Probably because it's easier to quietly remove a fugitive and leave her disappearance as a mystery than walk in through the front door and try to drag her out in broad daylight. When they got caught, that plan was ruined, so they had to resort to open discourse that gives said fugitive time to formulate a plan and complicate the entire operation.
@@ForeverLaxx Ok and why didn't they just start with open discourse with the jarl about extraditing a fugitive of hammerfell? Why would they need to resort to sneaking in first? Because they aren't welcome there from the start, because of their affiliation to hammerfell's rebellion, therefore it would then make sense to try to sneak in and get her BECAUSE they already aren't welcome there.
@@justanuff Because she works as a barmaid and would essentially immediately know that "unknown" Redguard individuals are asking questions. It wouldn't matter what those questions even are at that point. To go in brazenly would tip their mark off. It's the same reason when you're given an assassination contract to avoid rousing suspicion in your target. The Redguard specifically aren't "unwelcome," either. The infamous Nazeem and Saadia herself are a testament to this. They made themselves unwelcome by trying to go around whatever rules/etiquette they require to enter the city peacefully because following those rules would have let Saadia escape. It's really not that complicated.
For me, it’s a simple choice. Gameplay. If I side with Sadia, a have an extra character in Whiterun to interact with and add to the local environment, making the town feel alive. If I side with Kematu, Sadia is removed, nothing else happens. In the long run, there’s just 1 less character in Whiterun. So I side with Sadia, even though I’m sure she’s lying… also because siding with her means I get to fight a whole squad of A’lik’r warriors! It’s just about which choice makes better gameplay to me. 😅😊😂
My opinion in short: Kematu has no reason whatsoever to lie to the DB. The Alik'r aren't afraid of anyone and aren't afraid to die. Even if they wanted to just kill Saadia, they could have just said that and bribed the DB. Saadia has *every* reason to lie, because her entire fate depends on it.
He has a reason to lie. He has seen what the Dragonborn is capable of carving their way through that cave like it was nothing. He knows there is a strong chance his men could die at the Dragonborn's hands if he does not turn the Dragonborn to his side. Yeah.. I'd be trying to butter up a demi god to be my ally too rather than face their wrath. The timeline completely breaks Kematu's story. Sadia could not have been no more than a young teen girl at oldest when what he claims happened. The events were almost 25 years before current time. Unless you believe Sadia is around 50 years old.. Kematu's story in no way stacks up.
@@violabeaumont3758 Sorry, but where is it stated that the events of Saadia running away was 25 years ago? Even if it was, we don't know how age affects Redguards, and by your math she would be about 40 which is actually more than possible. Delphine is in her 50s and looks a bit younger than her years. Like I said before, even if faced with a deadly threat, I doubt Alik'r warriors are afraid of death. These are some of the most, if not the most fearsome warriors in all of Tamriel. If you side with Saadia, Kematu even says "I wish it didn't have to come to this", which proves his good faith even when faced with potential death. P.S., I've also just found out that if you kill Saadia in front of Kematu, he says: "All that effort and you just kill her? You've ruined everything!", which closes the case since Saadia says they have come to assassinate her and not capture her alive
@@violabeaumont3758 " The timeline completely breaks Kematu's story. Sadia could not have been no more than a young teen girl at oldest when what he claims happened." According to? We have no idea how old Saadia is, or how old she was back then. (Also, her story also mention something that happened during the war so...)
I forgot exactly which, but if you’re greedy, you can kill kematu right before or after he paralyzes Saadia outside the stables and get an extra monetary reward. Don’t think it was double though. I think it’s after the paralysis, and the quest is technically over, Saadia will give you some more money. I could be mistaken.
Personal opinion, both are lying about the Thalmor and Taneth. After the Dominion was driven from Hammerfell, the old factions broke apart again, and Saadia(Crowns) is being pursued by Alik'ir(Forebears) for an unknown reason. They both obfuscate because why would a random warrior in Skyrim care about Redguard politics? They're trying to enlist your aid, and since both Skyrim's major political factions generally agree Thalmor suck(though one is more vocal than the other), they used that as a cover. Saadia likely started it, and Kematu adopted it after hearing her lies from people he encountered.
Actually found if you cast fury on Kematu before he paralyzes her, she won't be hostile with you and hands you the reward. Then I just loot Kematu afterward So, that's usually what I do to maximize the reward
There is no dilemma and what she may or may not have done doesn't matter. I enter the cave, they try to kill me and when I get to the leader he suddenly wants to talk... Nope, too late for that. He's going to die there in the cave a coward for trying to talk his way out of his own imminent death. What she may or may not have done on the other side of the continent doesn't matter the second they tried to kill me, his lackeys tried to kill me when she only threatened to defend herself decided who is in the wrong. Him and his lackeys were in the wrong.
Elsweyr. Just thought I would let you know how it was spelled. Though its membership in the Dominion is- not direct basically they are an independent client state, not directly under Dominion rule, I'll also add that most Khajiit do NOT like the Thalmor and Elsweyr actually has two seperate states one of which is hard neutral and opposed to the Dominion and the other which is a Dominion client state. But them hiring Khajiit assasins makes complete sense due to proximity and plausible deniability that said in Skyrim its not the best option really as if you are a Khajiit the locals will treat you with disdain no matter what city you go to if you are even let inside because a good number of cities don't let you in even Whiterun. Which actually would explain why the Thalmor would opt for human assassins given a Khajiit in Whiterun would be too suspicious because of Nord Racism.
Who is Kematu going to put her on trial with? They don't have a government and if she sold them out, why run away. Also I think people don't seem to remember the ONLY other named Alik'r you find in all of Skyrim is a F@#ing member of the Dark Brotherhood. They literally make you do all the work for them even letting you kill the Bandits so they don't have to pay them for using their cave. Kematu already knows she's in Whiterun and knows her name too.
There's a big problem with any argument that Saadia is lying, the events Kematu is talking about happened 21-26 years before the events of Skyrim. Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s. Even if you want to stretch things to put her in her 30s, that's still a teenage girl who somehow had information that could cause a city to fall in the war, who somehow got in contact with the Dominion, and, for some reason, decided to sell out the city. This is a pretty bizarre series of events and kind of relies on the assumption that either Saadia is way older than she looks or is some kind of Potema-esque demon seed that was plotting against her people since she was a toddler. Her angering some thin-skinned Thalmor official and getting assassins sent after her (like what we see happen to several characters, including the player) is way more likely.
What Thalmor Official? There were no Thalmor Officials in Hammerfell during the timespan you mentioned, or at least none with their heads still attached to their bodies.
"There's a big problem with any argument that Saadia is lying" Saadia is clearly lying. Nothing in her story make any sense, and it's contradicted by anything we know about Hammerfell during the war. Also, she even contradict herself lmao. She faints surprise when we tell her that the Alik'r have found her, but then she told us that one of them is in jail. Either she's really dumb and haven't made the connections (which i doubt) or she was just pretending to be surprised for some reason. "Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s." That's a nice argument, why don't you back it up with a source? And no, her model isn't a source. Skyrim only got 3 models. Her being that young also contradict both her and Kematu story anyways. "Her angering some thin-skinned Thalmor official" If we believe her story, the Thalmor just want to kill her because she denounced them (which i'm pretty sure, most redguards did during the war lmao) and make no sense when we think about where she is. Why didn't she go back to Hammerfell after the war if the Thalmor was really hunting her? Why she even fled to Skyrim (where there were already Justiciars everywhere)? It make no sense. "and getting assassins sent after her (like what we see happen to several characters, including the player) is way more likely." Why would they hire random redguards from Hammerfell to do it...? They can just sent justiciars or even Khajiits assassins (that's what they do in the main quest) if they really wanted to kill her. Also, again, if they really wanted to kill her, why don't they have a dossier on her in their ambassy...?
"Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s." That's not a "big problem", that's just something you made up. There's nothing "clear" about her being in her 20s.
i wonder if saadia (as a noble) did the dirty with a thalmor after realizing her city would fall and kematu was supposed to marry her (or related in some way to her betrothed) but he killed the guy and chases after her to carry out his "justice" because she was "involved with the enemy"
I understand that Saadia's urn showing up in Whiterun is almost certainly a coding oversight, but in my opinion bugs and oversights should be considered canon because they reflect the reality that a video game character exists within.
I side with Saadia even though I believe the Alik'r are truthful because my character just doesn't care. She gave me a job, and I don't go back on my word.
There is no Dilemma. She is guilty. Here is why... Saadia claims that Kematu wishes to take her back because She spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Dominion at that point and time operated with no interference in Skyrim. Basically what I am trying to say is if the Aldmeri wanted her they would just go get her. They would never employ a redguard for her capture. If they can hunt down Eisbern in the ratway they can find a random redgaurd in skyrim. There aren't that many to begin with.
The fact that she said the Thalmor are chasing her immediately gives her away. Hammerfell and the Redguards ceded from the Empire and the Thalmor. They hate the Thalmor and Saadia said she spoke out against the Thalmor which would be welcome in Hammerfell.
Saadia: "We need to speak in private".
*proceeds to speak in front of a sleeping dude.*
Not in the vanilla game
@@marcspronk5714happened to me lol
It’s not a bug, it’s a _feature_
Don't worry, he'll think it's a dream.
And?
Ok Saadia, let me get this straight..
You're on the run from the Thalmor. And instead of staying in Hammerfell where your people not only drove out the Dominion and fought them to a standstill in the relative recent past, but the resistance against them continues to have strong support there - instead, INSTEAD, you come to a place where the Thalmor have an active embassy and is given leave by Imperial decree to persecute, kidnap and torture the local population on the suspicion that they might have the wrong religion?
"Hey Kematu! Yeah, she's over here!"
my reaction exactly if i was teleported into the game 😅
fuck the thalmor and the aldmeri dominion
to be fair, the books talking about the Thalmor being pushed out of Hammerfell are not up to date for Skyrim, and they note that the state of affairs was shaky at best. it's entirely possible the Thalmor have regained influence in the region since it was written.
I didn't believe her as well. Not to mention the Thalmor kidnapped Thorald Gray-Mane from Whiterun.
@@PacificBirdexcept you don't get pushed out just to be randomly let back in
I only once sided with Saadia, to see if there was any interesting dialogue, and came out of it feeling like I made the wrong decision
Ironically enough, I usually do side with Saadia
When playing with NPC overhaul and body mods, it becomes easier to side with Saadia.
@@bluekrazykris Horny police knocking on your door.
@@bluekrazykrisif we could have I would’ve married her
@@moonmoon4537
Saadia's story doesn't make sense if you know the current lore of Tamriel.
Hammerfell despises the Thalmor, even more than Skyrim does; after being sold out in the White Gold Concordat, Hammerfell continued to fight against the Thalmor and won.
Warriors from Hammerfell would not accept Thalmor orders to eliminate a supposed enemy of their faction.
Furthermore, Thalmor operate freely within Skyrim at the time in which most would encounter this quest (altered only by Stormcloak victory); if they wiished to hunt Saadia down, they'd do so themselves.
Exactly!!
Balgruff tolerate the Thalmor though?
@SunnyBunny148 But this quest starts before he picks a side, he allows Talos worship for instance.
@@twinzzlers Balgruff supports the Empire, before outright stating as such he is still under the auspice of the Empire.
As a result, his Hold legally must allow Thalmor activity.
@Burned-Legate He prefers them, but didn't actively support them until Ulfric forced his hand. Hermisker is allowed to preach freely so there's no Thalmor in his hold
There is no mystery, Saadia is lying.
It's established (I believe in-game, by books) that Hammerfell fought and won against the Dominion. There are no Thalmor running Hammerfell, they were kicked out. The only reason she has to run is if she was a Thalmor collaborator.
I'm a bit surprised this isn't more-known
Yeah there’s no way hammerfell would have Aldmeri Dominion executions. And why would you send assassins to capture someone to put them on trial? Her story is nonsense
@@Scowleasy I fully think that Saadia is lying, but I don't think Kematu is being truthful either. Afterall he said that she would be moved back to Hammerfell for trial, but you will find her body in Whiterun's hall of the dead afterwards.
Basically, both sides are liars.
@doodlebug4360 that one is kinda easy to explain it's when a named character gets sent to the box that will despawn npc so in lore she could be getting sent while in game her items get sent to that area
@@doodlebug4360 This was pointed out, and explained, in this very video. It's a function of how Skyrim was coded to handle "important" NPCs that aren't given an essential flag. The game just considers her to be dead when she's taken out of the world, so it generates an urn for her even if it shouldn't. It's not proof of anything other than Bethesda's very typical lack of polish and care.
Saadia's urn turns up if you hand them over so they broke the "no harming Saadia" deal.
I’ve always avoided talking to the 2 guys so they would stay and protect the gate
@@Yt9764 I’ve been doing the same, after getting tired of Vampires attacking me every time I left Breezehome at night!
Yup. The best outcome of a quest is "don't start it"
I have Ebony Warrior guard the gates of Whiterun (that's where i visit the most). Those vampires don't stand a chance.
Hey, vampires: 🖕
The thing about Kematu that seemed off to me was his desire to avoid bloodshed, despite 1. Taking up with bandits 2. Leaving a man behind and 3. What that man says about "to meet Kematu is to meet your end".
I suppose it could be that he has simply purposefully built a reputation for himself, and that he's actually more peaceful than he let's on, but it could be that he's lying to you to get what he wants. He's obviously charismatic or intelligent enough to get strong fighters to follow him, so him crafting this story of a desire of peace and justice doesn't seem impossible.
Could easily be he wants to avoid unnecessary bloodshed/his men dying
He says that after the dragonborn cuts a bloody path through bandits so he's clearly capable and fighting could end with the Redguards loosing men
To be fair paying bandits for a low key base is only reasonable in a country you aren't from that has a very ideological civil war and unreliable safety everywhere including the thalmor.
The dude who was left behind elaborates that he was left because Kematu had a principle that he and his group are "supposed to be the best", and that dude admits that he did something that got them kicked out of Whiterun. In other words, he failed to uphold Kematu's standards and got the rest of the group in trouble so he got kicked out for insubordination.
Kematu also is consistently very logical and professional as even in random encounters with members of his group, where they apologize for getting the wrong person during their search rather than do any ruffian antics. We also don't give any indication to the discharged member that we might be going to him for negotiation, so just assumes we're off to fight him.
@@joshuakim5240 They apologize? I hear then admit that they have the wrong person, but they also act like it's partly the woman's fault that they made a mistake.
@@petersimpson4648 They apologize but they also blame her for making them think she was suspicious
Haven't watched the full vid yet but I side with the Alik'r because Saadia contradicts herself. She's surprised they tracked her down but then she mentions she heard one of them was caught trying to sneak into the city. Probably a mistake by Bethesda but if purposeful it comes across like she's well aware and is just using the character to get rid of them.
She probably assumed the first one that was arrested was a scout, just sniffing around; leaving immediately in that case would have burned her cover. Hearing from the player that there were now *more* is what set her off.
She also says that they are hunting her for the thalmor even though Hammerfell is independent of the thalmor and actively hate them.
Regardless i side with saadia
Due to lack of jurisdiction by the hammerfell guys plus they refuse to answer questions
@KingBuilder525 is it impossible the 2 ruling factions at war in hammerfell, could 1 faction be allied with the thalmor? Yeah, just look at the modern history of the middle east and Africa. 😅
@@joestrummer4106 The Thalmor hiring random redguards to kill a woman who denouced them 20 years ago (things that most redguards probably did in the same time too) make no sense.
Why would they hire redguards to go to Skyrim when they could just sent some Justiciars or Khajiits assassins?
Also, the 2 rulings factions of Hammerfell, who were usually rivals, allied themselves during the war to beat the Thalmor's ass.
Personally I go with Saadia, not because of lore, but because I love the 1v10 fight in that cavern
Same. Still, I don’t see what about her makes her really “guilty” or “evil,” especially in a somewhat morally grey franchise like TES.
What female batman is this? GYAYYYAT
And then you get to loot a whole lot of curved swords!
@@Djiril922 no.
@@Djiril922Curved swords!?
I feel it's fascinating that a secondary quest in a game 13 years old now is still discussed today. That's the power of skyrim i guess
It's the power of vagueness lol
It's cause we haven't gotten a new game to talk about since
@@taylorslade961 elder scrolls online?😂
@@finger3306*one worth talking about
@@SunnyBunny148the lore is interesting, the game is not
The urn in Whiterun makes sense, though. Look at it from Whiterun's perspective - she probably never left the city normally. Then she heads out and vanishes, during a time with massive turmoil *and* dragons just returned and one literally just attacked the city and trashed a guard tower.
That's going to look like she died. If anyone decided to have any sort of a service, then they'd probably set up an urn for her in the hall of the dead as part of their funeral rites.
Damn, good point.
If ES6 does actually end up taking place in Hammerfell as some have theorized, I suspect we'll be able to visit the town in question and see which is the case.
I'd bet on it. Skyrim has plenty of answers to Oblivion, Oblivion to Morrowind etc.
It's simple logic to understand who's lying and telling the truth. In game books talk about hammerfell fighting the aldmeri dominion after the empire agreed to the concords and was renounced as a province of yhe empire. Hammerfell won and kicked the dominion out.
With that information know her story is bullshit.
If she was against the thalmor staying in hammerfell would make more sense than leaving to skyrim where the thalmor have more power and control.
She's a traitor simple as that only reason she would leave hammerfell and be hunted down by hammerfell agents in the Alkari.
@@cuttlefish6839 my only question about that is why would saadia say that if it's just blatant bullshit? i feel like something like that would not be difficult or unlikely for our character to know. if she's already lying why wouldn't she go with a lie that actually makes sense? what if the thalmor knew her location in hammerfell and hired the mercenaries since they were unable to operate there, then they just followed when she fled to skyrim, where the thalmor have no idea where she is?
Those Redguard warriors have curved swords.
_Curved. Swords._
@@oscaranderson5719 That's not all that curved from what mans1ay3r told me. ~grin~
CURVED. SWORDS.
Curved Swooords!!!!
Curved sword!
My first time playing Skyrim, I sided with Saadia exclusively because the Alik'r gave me bad vibes, since they said, "Don't worry about it. Look, money!" when I asked why they were looking for her. I just assumed that if you had to bribe people to not look into your reasons, then your reasons are not good. Which is still not necessarily untrue.
My same thoughts. I only listened to the first 10 or so minutes of the video since it popped up on my recommended and I thought “wait, that storyline isn’t black and white? I thought the Alik’r were obviously the antagonists, especially given how often they harass random women on the roads! What did I miss?!” Lol. So now I’m stopping the video and finding out for myself before coming back!
Saadia's urn turns up after the quest ends if you side with them, meaning they didn't keep their promise of not hurting Saadia.
@blackzero786 I don't give that part of this much credence. Kematu is furious if you kill Saadia after agreeing to help capture her. It seems more likely that the urn is a matter of lazy coding - i.e. Saadia is marked "dead" so she won't come back, but the urn automatically appears because she has been marked "dead".
@@barstokians365 As far as i'm aware that is a coding thing.
Nah, it's just cuz you simp. Own it, man.
I’ve never really trusted Saadia, simply due to the fact that, why would the thalmor send a band of mercs to kill her if all she did was speak out. She wasn’t a resistance leader by her own admission merely a person who spoke out. They’ve only sent single assassins to take care of targets as stated by Fizhy.
Even for the Dragon born they sent an assassin not assassins. Even during the attempted assassination of the dragon born. The other hostile enemies in the Ratway were actual Thalmor agents not more hidden assassins. The dragon born and the blades were actual threats not just dissidents like Saadia claims she is. So why a band of mercs?
There could be reasons we're not aware of. Like, if the Thalmor started trying to get her while she was in Hammerfell, they probably needed the mercs because the Thalmor aren't allowed to operate openly there like they are in Skyrim, and an assassination in Hammerfell against someone that spoke out against them would implicate them. If that's the case, the mercs were probably hired because it would leave signs that it wasn't the Thalmor that did it. But then Saadia caught wind of the mercs and escaped to someplace the Thalmor wouldn't think to look for her, and the mercs probably followed her without notifying the Thalmor because doing so would risk losing their payment since if she's in a country where the Thalmor can move about freely, they'd no longer need the mercs and would just send assassins like they do with the Dragonborn.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrinceso they target someone who isn't important based on her own admission that spoke out about the thalmor... but didn't target all the main leaders of hammerfell who not only spoke out but also fought back and drove them out of hammerfell.
That's pretty retarded
I figured that if either were who the other said they were that there'd be Thalmor directly involved in the quest. Due to no Thalmor, I think both are lying.
I'd like to think your logic is sound based on how we know the Thalmor to operate
A dossier in the Thalmor Embassy about the situation would have helped determine the truth.
@@SunnyBunny148Oh, dude. Please edit this comment and add the necessary punctuation. It's literally impossible to read as is.
@@taylorslade961 its not that hard to read and understand, unless you've got learning difficulties. Give the dude a break, it is only a RUclips comment section after all and not a school or workplace where everything needs to be correct😂
I think it's clear on the thamlor situation she isn't an ally of the thamlor but an informat, someone who possibly turned on the city for gold. It doesn't mean she is an employee of the thamlor but overall a traitor.
Despite being aware of most of this and not being typically interested in lore videos for Skyrim, I really like your content and how it's executed. You do summaries and explanations very well.
"Don't allow yourself to be fooled by a pretty face."
But here's the thing, he says that to you even if you go straight to the Alikir immediately after finding Saadia and hadn't meet Kematu at all.
Maybe he was talking about his own "pretty" face. ;-)
It’s his catchphrase.
The more I've looked into this quest and read people's opinion about it and the more I'm convinced that the devs never intended to have actual right or wrong sides. The only goal was simply to leave players wondering if they made the right choice. And it's working, people are still discussing whether Saadia or Kematu is the liar while Bethesda never intended to decide on the matter.
Best comment. Sometimes I feel youtubers are overanalyzing TES universe. But it's not a real world which can be analyzed to any degree of details. It's just build to seem that way (sometimes).
However this video I liked.
But this and the civil war both do have correct answers. The only evidence we have that the redguard men are lying is by way of Joe the game was coded leaving an Urn in the hall of the dead. Everything else we know leads to the other conclusion and that’s how these things should work
Its kind of annoying though, there is no way in the game to really make a moral decision, you just kind of guess either way. To me the correct decision in this quest is to not get involved at all. I wish there was a way to investigate further, even if it was still not a black and white situation. Like maybe you can tell saadia what they told you and she can defend herself or something. It just feels like the player is an absolute outsider in this and I dont like it
@tele337 Agree. IRL you could for example inform Jarl Balgruf about accusation of Saadia by Kematu. Or send a letter to Hammerfel asking if Kematu works for them or for Thalmor.
Fortunately, there is still that option to not get involved.
She claims:
- She is a noble of House Suda
- "The Alik'r are assassins in the employ of the Aldmeri Dominion."
- She is targeted for speaking against the Thalmor
He claims:
-Saadia is known for constantly changing her name.
* Saadia is wanted by the noble houses of Taneth for treason.
* "She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war."
What we know to be objective fact:
- The Great War ended with the Empire in 4E 175 30th of Frostfall and the White Gold Concordat
- Hammerfell however kept fighting alone until 4E 180 which ended with the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai (the terms included the full withdrawal of Dominion forces from Hammerfell)
- 4E 172 - In Hammerfell, the Thalmor consolidated their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out. The survivors of the March of Thirst regrouped in northern Hammerfell, joined by reinforcements from High Rock.
- 4E 173 - A Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of Hegathe (a Crown city), leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. Despite this, Lady Arannelya's main army succeeded in crossing the Alik'r Desert. The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance.
- 4E 175 - The Battle of the Red Ring results in the complete destruction of the Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil, a victory for the Empire precipitating the end of the Great War.
The Imperial City is retaken and Titus II's decision to withdraw from it the previous year is vindicated. Despite this resounding victory, however, the Empire is exhausted and unable to continue the war. Realizing this, Titus II seeks to negotiate with the Aldmeri Dominion to end the war.
The Great War ends with the White-Gold Concordat.
The Concordat is a peace treaty between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. The terms of treaty gave the Thalmor free rein to stamp out the worship of Talos throughout the Empire, and ceded a large section of southern Hammerfell. Critics note that these terms are almost identical to the ultimatum that Titus Mede II rejected at the start of the war.
Hammerfell leaves the Empire after rejecting the White-Gold Concordat.[4]
Titus II renounces Hammerfell as a province of the Empire to preserve the treaty after the Redguards oppose ceding their lands. The Redguards see this as a betrayal, and a lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire is sown to the delight of the Thalmor. Hammerfell continues to war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years and southern Hammerfell is left devastated.
4E 180 - The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai is signed.[4]
- Having been fought to a standstill by the Redguards, the Aldmeri Dominion completely withdraws from Hammerfell. Also, through the cooperation between Forebearers and Crowns, the civil war in Hammerfell ends. Despite the signing of the Treaty of Stros M'kai, Kematu claims that the resistance against the Aldmeri Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell.
Kematu might only be parroting what he was told to say, and is taking her back to be investigated before they proceed with the trial. Kematu might have been ordered to lay low while in Skyrim searching for her, due to the Civil War, the lack of allieship between Skyrim and Hammerfell after the Great War, and the heavy presence of the Thalmor.
Saadia does look young for her supposed age in order for her to have had a role in working with the Dominion. However, youth wouldn't have absolved her actions especially if the Thalmor used that against her and played on her naivety in order to get her to cooperate with them. Maybe she thought she was trying to stop the conflict but made it worse. Regardless, even if she was a teenager, costing the lives of thousands in a war is still treason. Also, video games have this phenomenon of depicting age in female characters as either older women that look 52 or those that are young and look 25 with no middle ground. She could very well be in her 30s or early 40s.
Purely Hypothetical: Let's say she lost a lot in the war, and upon the Empire abandoning Hammerfell to fight alone she lost a lot of hope until she was given an "opportunity" to help the Dominion end the war fast and minimize casualties, to which a distraught and desperate teenager wanting to save her home might've been more than willing to jump on, especially if maybe a family member was hostage or whatever. So it's some point between 175-179 Hammerfell and she is 16 years old, that means in Skyrim 4E 201 (during ES:V Skyrim) she's currently 42 at her oldest and 38 at youngest given that timeframe and the estimated age of 16 but she could've been younger or older. Which her body language, voice actor and mannerisms fit someone who's been on the run for most of their life, (Since 180, 21 years.)
Taking this info into account Saadia is clearly the traitor from my perspective. Kematu might not be telling all the truth or hiding some other motive but Saadia is just bluntly lying and hoping Nord (assuming you play as one) ignorance protects her from the truth being exposed.
Excellent explanation! This is so rich and full of detail I can always appreciate this.
When you actually go into the psychological warfare of Saadias testimony it becomes so unbelievably clear she's BSing the player. Saadias words, her contradicting story, and especially her sudden change in demeanor is very telling (but not 100% indicative) of a liar. She goes from a panicked demeanor to cool and calculated to suddenly playing dumb. It's funny because Saadia does actually spill the truth to the player regarding the Alikr dragging her back to Hammerfell for an 'execution' despite them being assassins.
Also when you really investigate the situation there's next to no shot the Dominion would have nor could have hired out the Alikr as assassins.
If she really is a traitor, shouldn't she have some way in with the thalmor? Like holed up in their embassy instead?
@@akale2620Except for the fact the Thalmor are noted Racial Supremacists who believe themselves above the rest of Tamriel.
To their mind, why should they care about the fate of one random traitor, particularly one who is not Altmer. They've already gotten their use out of her and can freely let her face the consequences of her treason.
One could even make the argument that Saadia might've tried to gain sanctuary with the Thalmor when she arrived in Skyrim, only to be told in no uncertain terms to go away and not further pollute the area with her presence.
@@zavroshellstrand766 indeed the thalmor would have told her to fuck off, but if they did, she definitely would mention that to you(or me) ie the pc.
You made up a "purely hypothetical" story, then from that determined that "Saadia is clearly the traitor". You've also ignored evidence to the contrary by making excuses about video game logic.
We have to remember too that just because Saadia is almost certainly lying, that doesn't automatically mean that Kematu is telling the truth. I'm personally of the mind that both parties aren't being truthful and are just spinning us a story they think will get us to help them since we're a pretty clear threat to both their lives at the time we meet them. The main difference between the two is that Kematu is the more skilled liar.
And your evidences to his lying is?
@@thewanderingstranger6638
"Everybody lies"
- Dr. House
@@ericgigliotti2632 Not good enough
@@thewanderingstranger6638 Are you stupid? Only an idiot would respond like that.
If she really was working with the Thalmor, you'd expect there to be some dossier on her. Or Kematu, for that matter. Which there isn't. The Thalmor are implied to be pretty extensive record keepers, so the fact that there's nothing about them related to this quest feels like they weren't involved directly.
My personal theory is that both "sides" think the other is working for the Thalmor and paranoia led to tragedy.
I return to the magical land of Skyrim to do things
If the Aldmeri Dominion wanted Sadia dead. They'd sent some Thalmor agents, be they a squad of justicars or a hired assassin. They wouldn't hire Redguard mercenaries.
And because Whiterun is technically under Imperial control (without any civil war shenanigans) the Jarl will have to let it happen if the Thalmor came knocking and was like "yeah, this redguard is a wanted criminal by the Thalmor"
After thinking about it, I think it’s almost certain than Saadia is lying but Kematu is certainly twisting events too.
I think that Saadia was only meant to be a young girl when the betrayal happened, not because she betrayed her duty to the Dominion but because her family did. And whether they were caught after Hammerfell’s victory or not, they were branded traitors and Saadia remains the only survivor of her family decades later.
So the reason why Kematu is the sole driving force of pursuing interest rather than the entire Redguard aristocracy is because he, perhaps due to being wronged because of the betrayal such as losing a loved one who might otherwise have survived, is the only one who actually wants to see the entire family brought to “justice.” Everyone else in Hammerfell is content that they got the main traitors and stripped them of power but Kematu is on a personal quest for vengeance determined to hunt every last member of the House down.
That’s the only way I can rationalise all these different pieces together, at least.
I really like this explanation.
That actually makes a ton of sense
This is now my headcannon
Excellent
But why she didn’t just say that
For me the best option keeping Saadia alive. When you keep her alive there's a bug where the 2 redgaurds that appear at the entrance in whiterun will stay there forever. This is helpful when you have vampires annoyingly attacking at night they will help protect the city and will be a buffer to keep a few other people in the city alive. And they come back if they die.
if you have vampire troubles, just start the dawnguard questline
"Don't allow yourself to be fooled by a pretty face" well that could also apply to him whether bc of one's proclivities or bc you find him charismatic enough lol.
It's hard to tell with these things if they weren't fleshed out or intentionally just like that when it comes to Bethesda.
First we should look at the time frames involved.
1) Skyrim starts 4E 201
2) Great War 4E 171-175
3) Taneth captured by Aldmeri forces, late 4E 171, held into 4E 172
4) 2nd Treaty of Stros M’Kai: officially ended hostilities between Hammerfell and Aldmeri Dominion (original borders are kept)
5) Taneth is ruled by a king, unless appointed to official positions nobles don’t have any authority
6) Alik’r Desert : a large area of Hammerfell known for lawlessness and hard living.
7) Kematu claims to be hired by a group of nobles from Taneth- no known official status, he leads a mercenary group not affiliated with Taneth.
8) Saadia is of a minor noble house in Taneth
Saadia is accused of working for the Thalmor at the time that the city was lost, which would make her a preteen at best, probably younger.
Why does someone like Kematu acting on “official duties “ hide in a bandit lair? That doesn’t sound legal. No official documents but his word? A writ from the King of Taneth or even the High King in Sentinel would be what was legally required. Not being hired by a bunch of nobles probably trying to take care of a feuding between house in Taneth.
I find that this quest is confusing as to the time lines from lore, it makes it seem that the actions involved occurred just 5 years earlier when it was 3 decades ago.
Saadia is more credible because of these errors in lore.
(Confecture)
I could make up lore that she was attacked by the scion of another noble house, she defended herself with her “virgin dagger” received a slash to the cheek but she maimed the scion and his house wants revenge for the slight by this woman. Leaving with a small bag or two of gems and jewelry could keep her well for years.
As for Saadia working in an inn as a barmaid. It’s the best location to learn information. The local guards will gossip a so will others. If you follow her day she does shop (marketplace gossip is amazing) and also visits the Shrine to Talos.
@@SunnyBunny148 Taneth was attacked from the sea, then isolated by Redguard forces, occupied by less than a year. That information isn’t shown. That is harder for a child to help with.
There was a notorious Thieves Guild in Taneth as well, just don’t know there presence in the last century. They once robbed and killed the High Queen of Hammerfell, she came from Taneth. I doubt if they were allowed to remain after that. Not much lore available.
@@SunnyBunny148 All kings have retainers that are used for “wet work”, but are left without recognition. To hire a bunch of mercenaries is sloppy, as you would want it done without possible loose lips. Alik’r mercenaries are also known to get involved with jobs for less than suitable individuals. With CC being pseudo lore there are at least two that deal with at least stolen Imperial artifacts.
A note to the Emperor with a request of quiet support with the Pentius Occulatus would be all that is needed and that it was an internal matter that required delicacy. The Pentius Occulatus would do the scouting and report back and then the “special agent” would be informed and that would take the matter to completion.
Both Highrock and Hammerfell have similarities to the Italian city states of the Renaissance. There are multiple family towers and feuding like in “Romeo and Juliet” was based on fact. Look at images of San Gimignano in Italy, that’s only the remaining towers. They fought against internal enemies and factions, not external.
There is a mention in one book about the family towers (not villas) of Taneth from which the internecine feuding seems like a reality by the lore.
Internal inconsistencies in TES are rampant, but I'm with you, here: the timeline doesn't fit (even if an inconsistency, I don't care, I'm playing my character not the meta). Saadia is lying because she's been on the run since before her temporal lobe came in and she's had to lie for most of her life. The Alik'r are lying because they're the ones after her, for whatever reasons. Frankly, most of my chars keep out of it, unless they're of the background I RP that means they'd have some knowledge or reason to get involved.
My personal opinion, based on this timeline (in part) is that they are both lying (she uses the Thalmor want me lie because that's the most likely thing to stir up the blood in Skyrim; she's observant) and that other than that, it's impossible to know, although his "pretty face" comment and his "you had to know that..." in a friendly-ish tone makes me think... there's a previous relationship involved and this isn't "official" at all but a case of her possibly having killed a member of Taneth's royal family, likely a son and that this "assassin" knew why. She has clearly had to defend herself at some point, whether for nefarious or genuine defence reasons. Then you add in the lore from TES: Blades which has your char being an ex-Blade hiding out somewhere in Hammerfell, rebuilding a wee town somewhere near Taneth. Hm, indeed.
based talos worshipper
There's also the fact that Saadia's urn appears in Whiterun's hall of the dead if you turn her over to Kematu.
I still believe the whole Saadi quest was just a teaser for ES6 if it takes place in Hanmerfell
Absolutely right man, Bethesda has done it before repeatedly so this is a good theory
Yup. They do it in all their games
in 10 years i look forward to playing it and seeing if youre right.
The Saadia quest is part of the Great War that preceeds the events of Skyrim by a few decades. I don't see what else needed to be said.
With this logic, all Thalmor-related quest prepare us for a ES6 in Aldmeri Dominion and all refugees tales in Windhelm prepare us to go to Black Marsh or back to Morrowind ...
I think it’s pretty explicitly clear that Saadia is the liar. She claims that she’s on the run from the Dominion in Hammerfell… but the AD hasn’t had influence there in years, she is incredibly defensive and hostile to the player while Kematu is remarkably frank about his side of the story,* it doesn’t exactly make sense that the AD being Altmer supremacists would hire a bunch of redguard Alik’r rather than simply send a group of justiciars when they already have a presence in Skyrim and if you kill Saadia, Kematu is audibly annoyed that she won’t be able to stand trial - which is a weird commitment to a LARP if he’s really just a Thalmor agent seeking to silence one of their critics.
There are also a bunch of details which I’ve forgotten since I last played the game but I remember stacking them all up and it just feeling so, so clear that Saadia was being shown to be the liar.
* Not that it’s impossible Kematu is just a good liar or that she wouldn’t have reason to be suspicious if she was telling the truth, to be clear. It’s more that when you take it into account with everything else, it seems far more plausible that she’s being shifty because she’s guilty rather than being unjustly persecuted.
I think it's clearer than intended and yet deliberately vague enough to be an interesting topic.
@@Fizhy For sure. There’s wiggle room but honestly not much if you’re paying attention.
True but to be fair she says she thinks that's why their after her but she may infact just me be lying
A fine little detail is Saadia's Urn that turns up after the quest ends.
Your argument is irrelevant whether she's guilty or not Hammerfell has no jurisdiction in Skyrim which means their soldiers and mercs have no right to pursue her there if they want her captured they need to send word to Jarl Elesif (standing high queen of Skyrim)
I always wish we had more Redguard stuff in these games. By far my favorite race.
Maybe Saadia was arranged to be betrothed to Kematu. It would explain why he does not want her dead, however, it does explain why his demise would resolve her problems. Just my own fan theory of the real story behind the story.
Yeah that seems way more likly for an imperal provence over dragging someone you just think simpped for your enemy after you won....
Just imagine if instead of a barmaid, Saadia replaced Tilma as the caretaker for the companions. She lied about her background to the companions and now uses them as protection without their knowledge.
Then you not only get choices on who to side with but also receive consequences based on your actions like;
- convince the companions of her true nature and let us take her,
- plan a kidnapping and lead the alikr through the secret exit under the skyforge (option only for member of inner circle)
- trick Saadia into leaving of her owm accord like vanilla quest
- demand the companions hand her over and if they refuse challenge someone of Saadia's choice to single combat
-As thane, organise the arrest of the Alikr
- Inform the Thalmor
hope u make more of this Skyrim videos in the future, love the content.
Plenty more to come for sure
Really hope we get a cannon “right” choice in the next Elder Scrolls game, assuming it takes place in Hamerfell
Canon
I always tell Kematu i will help only for him to come to White Run alone so i betray him.
3:15 I like how they're just someone sleeping in the bed as she's threatening the player character
You forgot to mention: There is a random encounter in the open world where Alikir warriors shake down a random redgaurd woman they thibk is Sadiea until the realize theor nistake and walk away. They're being quite agressive in this search and causing a lot of truble, regardless if their cause is just or not.
They have harsh methods, but justified and without blind firing.
@@calluxdoaron1903 you sound like a cop
@@blackninjawolf88 and the problem is?
Honestly, when playing Skyrim LE, I just liked having the Alik'r warriors hanging out at the entrance of Whiterun to defend against vampire attacks. I believe that only happens if you side with Saadia.
Loving the Skyrim videos dude. Always nice to watch to unwind from a busy day!
I enjoy this quest a lot, but ultimately i feel like the Alikir is the correct one. sure there's enough to make you question it, but at the same time Saadia seems to be relying on us not knowing what they are, which is to be expected for someone in Skyrim I suppose. but any research into the topic makes her entire case seem to rely purely on the player's ignorance of the current state of Hammerfel.
I am curious if she has a different take if you are a redguard.
@@SunnyBunny148 I got you ♥
@@SunnyBunny148 any results??
@@SunnyBunny148 dang.
Wpyld of been funny.
@@Radnugget She doesn't, but if you would be pretty far from hammerfel if you were a redguard and you could be from the other proviences.
To me is a matter of how much my character knows about the lore of Tamriel. I usually play a Breton spellcaster of humble beginnings. I figured he learned a lot about alchemy from his gardener grandfather and that gave him the jumpstart to attempt a serious study of enchanting, destruction and Illusion. Once he understood he simply didn't have the connections to become a court mage, he simply decided to try his luck in the more primitive province of Skyrim where he might find better opportunities. Even if he's well read on magic lore, I don't think he would be well versed on geopolitical events. At the end of the day, Saadia is a seemingly well to do lady at the local tavern in Whiterun. She leads a quiet life and only asks for help after you find out the Alik'r warriors are chasing her. The Alik'r don't have a good reputation in Whiterun. Apparently, they did something very disruptive to the public peace. They live in a bandit hideout and Kematu treats you with a lot of innuendo bordering on disrespect. You already know how to shout by the time you start the quest so Kematu should be wary of your prowess. Even so, he still decides to throw threats at you. That seals his fate. Saadia might have spied for the Thalmor but at least she knows not to find out when it comes to the Dragonborn.
For the reason why Saadia would betray, she is a noble, and maybe she hoped to become the noble ir noble family leading the city after the Thalmor take over. She would become the proxy leader of the city, a puppet of the Thalmor, but someone with power in the end.
Alik’r prisoner tells you Kematu will kill you (for no reason). “Simply knowing his name is to know death”. ‘If you goto Swindlers Den you’ll not return.’
For someone that knows Kematu better than anyone else we interact with it doesn’t seem he’s as pleasant as he makes himself out to be.
Keeping in mind the prisoner has no reason to protect us since we pay for his release after we’re told this and before we goto Kematu. If anything he’s the only person in this quest that seems genuine.
As a mercenary we don’t really know Kematu true motives. For all we can tell he’s hired for more nefarious reasons and just puts on a good act to accomplish his goal.
In the end all we see is no better than hit squad black bagging their target for reasons mostly unknown.
I’ve sided with both and don’t have a good feeling with either. I generally side with Saadia because it keeps the tavern more populated.
Of course, he is a failed former member of Kematu's band. He may be trying to get the pc to buy his freedom and serve up some -righteous justice- sweet revenge at the same time.
Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that they are violating the sovereignty of Whiterun. Saadia is under the protection of Jarl Baalgruuf, and Kematu is a unwanted criminal mercenary trying to kidnap a person.
Nice video mate. Been waiting for you to drop another one personally I’ve always kept her in the town in my vanilla Playthrough always just adds a little bit more in terms of the people hanging around town. One of the things I dislike about vanilla Skyrim is how empty the towns feel
3:11 just had the sudden realization that's the voice of Wonder Woman from the Justice League animated series (DCAU)... looked it up and I was right. Can't believe I never noticed before.
Another one I noticed if you’ve ever watch Boy Meets World in the first season Eric has a best friend who is the courier voice in Skyrim
Kematu doesn’t have details because he’s likely one of many mercenary groups sent after her. Skyrim is one continent in a huge world if they are going to find someone in the world they will need more then 10 dudes looking for her and her crimes would probably be explained in detail at the actual trial and execution. Makes more sense to give the mercenary leaders a overview of her betrayal rather then go in depth with details for each group
"Blend in as much as 6 feet tall cat people typically can"
Incidentally, as the most naturally gifted in stealth of the races, that's ostensibly quite a lot.
Complex detail...this is what makes games or movies that we consume GOOD. This video was amazing!
I usually end up siding with Saadia for a few reasons 1) They start refusing to tell you why they are looking for her. That is sketchy especially in neutral Whiterun where the Jarl literally says he does not care about who the elves want to execute. He has no reason to have guards reject their entry. 2) Saadia does not offer you a reward (even though she does) she asks for your help. But then you go to Klaamatu who 3) immediately accuses her of hiring you or indulging your *ahem* base urges. And then 4) Offers you money to betray her. THAT is sketch. So to me it seems odd that if Saadia is with the Dominion she is in neutral White Run and not the closer Dominion aligned Solitude. I can see her trying to get to Windhelm and then being stuck in Whiterun when the mercs catch up. Now here’s what I reason from all this. If Klaamatu is lying Saadia is likely going to (at best) a kangaroo court intent on killing her anyway. If Saadia is lying she is still living in exile in a place where she is now a servant and not any sort of Hammerfell royalty of any rank. Saadia is therefore already suffering a punishment and siding with her is doing the least amount of harm.
Very good video. I approve of you reading the dialogue option you select out loud, and solving the problem with logic that doesn't require knowing a bunch of tes lore.
Kematu is. If you know lore Hammerfell definitely does not support the Aldmeri Dominion and actually successfully rebelled against the Empire and fended off the Dominion. In truth during the conflict she betrayed her people and sided with the Dominion and when they lost she went on the run as a fugitive. Kematu's forces are there to capture her and bring her back to Hammerfell to stand trial for her crimes. If you kill her he gets pissed. Which goes against her story.
Saadia's betrayal was probably along the lines of "I'll open the gate for you, if you let me flee with my life." If Tanith was under seige for years, the Thalmor may have frustrated enough to accept the deal. Kematu does say the city would have "held" after all.
I’ve never believed Saadia in this quest line. Sure, Kematu isn’t above suspicion, but the narrative Saadia herself presents just makes no sense. Why would the Thalmor bring mercenaries from another nation to hunt down a fugitive in a country where they have an established presence? And sure, Whiterun is basically neutral in the Civil War and we can assume Balgruuf doesn’t allow Thalmor in the city based on the fact that Heimskr can get away with openly preaching. But that still wouldn’t justify using the Alik’r of all people. Surely they’d go through local nord mercenaries who can enter Whiterun unnoticed?
The narrative of why Saadia betrayed her city is a little undercooked, but my thinking is that she didn’t believe that Hammerfell could win against the Dominion if the whole Empire couldn’t, so she worked with the Thalmor in hopes of preserving her own (and maybe her family’s) power after their victory. If you can’t beat em, join em.
i love that we’re still discussing this quest all these years later
I pick Saadia because for one obvious reason Kematu hangs out with bandits.
Its the end of the mission on kematus side that made me choose to do the mission that way from then on. He says she didnt think she could get away with manipulating people forever and not to be fooled by a pretty face.
That doesnt sound like the words of someone whos an assassin. Its sounds like the disapproving words of a jailer.
Not to mention she says she can continue her ruse. Which doesnt sound quite right.
I think there's a political aspect to this that you overlooked.
Since Hammerfell refused to let the Dominion take over, the Empire basically kicked them out to avoid violating the concordat. The Alik'r got kicked out because they're a foreign power who came waltzing into Whiterun and attempted to extract a citizen without permission; as they're no longer part of the Empire previous arrangements would no longer be honoured, and it's pretty clear that Saadia is *some* kind of Thalmor agent or quisling. Because she's hiding in an at least nominally Imperial-aligned hold, the Empire would be obligated to refuse any official petition because the Thalmor would pressure for it.
Much like Elenwen tries to pressure for Ulfric's handover because he's a former asset who still serves their purposes at the beginning of the game!
0:58 I completed the quest and two of those Alik'r Warrior guys are still standing at the gates. Been there for multiple in-game months now
It's worth pointing out that Kematu says she sold out the city during "the War." He doesn't specify the "Great War," so it's possible he's referring to Hammerfell's continued fight against the Dominion after the peace treaty. Not the most solid explanation, but it does somewhat narrow that time gap you took issue with.
That said, I cooked up a little theory that you seemed to imply but skirt around towards the end there. Maybe Saadia was to be married off to Kematu but didn't want to. She fled from Hammerfell and Kematu, incensed by her rejection, took his Alik'r warriors with him to track her down, intending on bringing her back to force her into marriage. They both made up the story about the other being in cahoots with the thalmor to sway whatever adventurers get caught up in their political drama. That's why Saadia says the problem is gone with Kematu's death and Kematu is pissed if Saadia is killed.
I was going to say, saadia can be heard calling Hulda "mother". For me this makes it quite clear she is young. Hulda is getting ready to retire, but she is not an elder, so it makes sense to me that Hulda would be around 50. It would be kinda weird for Saadia to call someone her own age mother after building a close relationship. Sister would be more fitting. So this would completely rule out the great war theory, unless she is around 30 and sold them out as a child.
This is false, it’s a proven fact they don’t know her personally. This why they were harassing random red guard women until the confirmed Saadia is the correct person
the correct choice is to side with kematu until he hands over the gold, then to kill him and use a calm spell on sadia to also get her money
edit: damn you referenced it a minute after i paused to comment this lol
No, thats just metagameing
@@milesedgeworth3667how
@@milesedgeworth3667 Metagaming is just another word for justice (for my -murderhobo- dragonborn inclinations.)
My headcanon is that Kematu is a bounty hunter type who wants to try selling Saadia to some group in Hammerfell, and Saadia was telling the truth about being a wanted woman while lying and generally being sneaky towards the player. Because right, if Kematu represents the law, killing him shouldn't affect anything, but it does. So he must be some self interested party impersonating a Hammerfell authority. Amd Saadia is a shady manipulative person, but if she's telling the truth about being wanted by the Aldmeri (alive so they can extract info first or smth, they do that kind of thing) then everything makes sense. Idk though, maybe it wasn't supposed to add up
Whatever Saadia did, I bet it wasn't as virtuous as she claims, but I bet Kematu isn't an agent of the law either, so fortune seeker / political prisoner seems like the most fitting dynamic. Explains why he will hire bandits too
Also could explain Kematu's policy about leaving behind a captured ally, and why that warrior felt he had to restart his whole life. Seems more like a policy and reaction you'd see from a troup of plunderers than from agents of justice, weighing the two possibilities
I guess what I'm saying is, I think they're both lying, and Kematu wants to try selling Saadia not send her to a fair trial, and Saadia doesn't want anyone to know what she really did
@@SunnyBunny148 darn there goes my theory! I wonder why Saadia thinks she's more safe then
@@SunnyBunny148 good point! And if Kematu was part of a lawful effort to detain Saadia, everyone trying to find her would share information. But Kematu keeps those details away from others which is weird if they're trying to achieve justice, but makes perfect sense if they're disconnected bounty hunters! And Kematu knows he has the best odds of finding her and wants to keep his advantage, and Saadia knows he is her main threat due to their past connection. Hmmmm!
Realistically the other red guards are probably just dumb because it's Skyrim, but it's so fun to speculate!
If I remember she did what she did to avoid more bloodshed to her people because she knows that her people would sacrifice themselves than become someone's slave
by letting a city be slaughtered? the AD lost to Hammerfell.
For me it looks like familial vendetta - Saadia's family betrayed Hammerfell and was wiped out with Saadia being the only survivour, fleeing her whole life. Doesn't sound good enough to convince foreign bystander now, right?
I always thought that i makes the most sense that they're both lying. Maybe shes a runaway bride? With hammerfell being based on Middle eastern culture the concept of honor killing doesn't feel too crazy. Think of it like this she was in an arranged marriage upon meeting her husband he turns out to be an abusive a hole leaving her with a facial scar. She runs off to skyrim breaking the marriage arrangements and leaving her family dishonored. In retaliation they mark her for death.
@@SunnyBunny148even if she was lying you'd believe her? that's insane.
I side with Saadia, not because I necessarily believe her but because I don't think the Alik'r provide enough evidence that Saadia is guilty of anything. Further, they have no legal jurisdiction in Skyrim and are clearly not trying to work with local authorities to extradite Saadia.
My exp with this was i sided with sadia because - when i surrendered her to the Alikr then after they all de-spawn you can find Sadia's coffin inside the Whiterun. - i dont know if thats just bethasda despawning her OR they made it that way to play with our imagination.
That's a Bethesda thing.
It's a programming thing. But still I doubt she will survive her sentencing for her crimes.
To be fair, the people of Whiterun could’ve just thought she was dead since she went missing. Imagine if a worker of the local inn disappears one night and is never seen again. I doubt Kematu would just return the body to Whiterun after she faces Justice in Hammerfall.
“Here’s Nazeem’s urn, and yes I’m pleased with myself” wild lol 🤣
I wonder if Nazeem survives any save file of us players 😂
Crazy how bro randomly just started pumping out Skyrim videos
I always save Saadia. There will always be two Redguards inside the front gate of Whiterun and will join in on Vampire Attacks, Dragon Attacks, etc.
Since I'm the thane of whiterun i always side with saadia cause whiterun is a place i always call home plus i love the people their. 😂😂
Even nazeem
@@logandelaharpe6362 yes
@@joshuajefferson3504you like Nazeem? Disgusting.
@@1th_to_comment. A city always needs a village idi0t.
I’m of the opinion that Saadia is wanted in Hammerfell, and she had worked with the Aldmeri dominion but may not have done so knowingly. Got pulled in by an agent and had to flee because she was associated.
Komatu obviously can’t say she’s going to be executed because of guilt by association as that wouldn’t be very likely to get our cooperation and he is a mercenary.
Her reaction to being tricked is shocked betrayal, her reaction upon being told they are coming for her spells out a picture of a woman trying to find a place to live but can’t.
Unless im stupid i think you skipped over the possibility that the fact that he wants Saadia alive could very well be that he is only paid if she is brought back alive.
I usually end up just avoiding this quest because no matter who i side with i end up feeling like i chose wrong. Can’t make a wrong decision if i just don’t make a decision 😅
real 😂
even if her story doesnt add up, i still tend to side with saadia. ultimately, the alik'r are a band of morally dubious warriors who come to another land to hunt a woman down, threatening anyone who even remotely matches her description (as seen in a random event where you can find a couple alik'r interrogating a random redguard woman on the road) and at least committing some kind of crimes to get one of their own arrested. even if its possible that saadia has worked for the thalmor in the past, i cannot justify assisting a shady group of men kidnap a woman who, by all rights, has done nothing wrong by me or anyone else in skyrim since her arrival there.
A lot of Germans who fled to Argentina in the late 1940s also did nothing wrong against Argentinians...
@@dutchpatriot17 sure but if a band of shady mercenaries showed up in Argentina asking for you to help them kidnap a woman for being a secret nazi with no evidence, you wouldn’t help them, right?
Another telling part is that these are specifically Alik'r Warriors, meaning they arent from the area around Taneth. I get that theyre mercs, but they seem to be hunting her on personal grounds as well.
I hope the next game is set in Hammerfell, I'm really intrigued
I'd like to see Hammerfell because of its environmental opposition to Skyrim's colder climate for definite.
@@Fizhy kinda like Prince of persia
No let it be in High Rock!
@@oobermacknId be cool with that too
We've already had hammerfell featured in 3 or 4 ES games(as far as I remember) They won't have the setting there. If that one slow zoom in, fake trailer that dropped like 6 years ago by Beth was any consolation, the setting is most likely going to be highrock, summerset isle, or maybe another land altogether.
Every time I am reminded of this quest I think back to when I tried to join an elder scrolls forum online and thought it’d be fun to ask a question about this quest and everyone basically told me its “been talked about a hundred times already, shut up” and so I deleted my account and got really sad 😂
I always just assumed the Thalmor wasn't actually involved in this quest at all, they're just a convinient lie used by Saadia.
I think they're both lying, but for different reasons.
I do think Saadia is genuinely the victim in that situation, perhaps fleeing Hammerfell from an aranged marriage, or maybe she was targetted there for other reasons.
I do think the Alik'rs are exactly what she says they are, that being assassin's, but they weren't hired by the Thalmor, or officially to bring her back, my guess, they were an under-the-counter hire by someone from a noble house, now whether it's to drag her back home, or outright murder her, I can't say for sure.
Yeah, that’s my opinion. They’re both quite shady and neither of their stories make much sense.
I've been coming back to this quest for the least 13 years and my only conclusion is a mistrial of insufficient writing from Bethesda if I had to guess they were going for Saadia to be guilty but dropped the ball in further elaborating it
Why aren't they welcome in Whiterun? Because whiterun sides with the legion, and the alik'r are indeed from the rebellion in hammerfell. The alik'r are telling the truth.
They aren't welcome there because they tried to sneak into the city the game literally tells you this
@@Serge_Jackson Why would they try sneaking in if they were initially welcome?
@@justanuff Probably because it's easier to quietly remove a fugitive and leave her disappearance as a mystery than walk in through the front door and try to drag her out in broad daylight. When they got caught, that plan was ruined, so they had to resort to open discourse that gives said fugitive time to formulate a plan and complicate the entire operation.
@@ForeverLaxx Ok and why didn't they just start with open discourse with the jarl about extraditing a fugitive of hammerfell? Why would they need to resort to sneaking in first? Because they aren't welcome there from the start, because of their affiliation to hammerfell's rebellion, therefore it would then make sense to try to sneak in and get her BECAUSE they already aren't welcome there.
@@justanuff Because she works as a barmaid and would essentially immediately know that "unknown" Redguard individuals are asking questions. It wouldn't matter what those questions even are at that point. To go in brazenly would tip their mark off. It's the same reason when you're given an assassination contract to avoid rousing suspicion in your target.
The Redguard specifically aren't "unwelcome," either. The infamous Nazeem and Saadia herself are a testament to this. They made themselves unwelcome by trying to go around whatever rules/etiquette they require to enter the city peacefully because following those rules would have let Saadia escape.
It's really not that complicated.
For me, it’s a simple choice. Gameplay. If I side with Sadia, a have an extra character in Whiterun to interact with and add to the local environment, making the town feel alive. If I side with Kematu, Sadia is removed, nothing else happens. In the long run, there’s just 1 less character in Whiterun. So I side with Sadia, even though I’m sure she’s lying… also because siding with her means I get to fight a whole squad of A’lik’r warriors! It’s just about which choice makes better gameplay to me. 😅😊😂
I always help Saadia, us criminals have to stick together
She allowed a city to be massacred by the Thalmor.
I can smell the ratway on this comment
If they were with the Aldmeri dominion they would not have a problem in Whiterun.
My opinion in short:
Kematu has no reason whatsoever to lie to the DB. The Alik'r aren't afraid of anyone and aren't afraid to die. Even if they wanted to just kill Saadia, they could have just said that and bribed the DB.
Saadia has *every* reason to lie, because her entire fate depends on it.
exactly.
The only reason Kematu would have to lie, is that if he was really working for the Thalmor.
Which make no sense so...
He has a reason to lie. He has seen what the Dragonborn is capable of carving their way through that cave like it was nothing. He knows there is a strong chance his men could die at the Dragonborn's hands if he does not turn the Dragonborn to his side. Yeah.. I'd be trying to butter up a demi god to be my ally too rather than face their wrath. The timeline completely breaks Kematu's story. Sadia could not have been no more than a young teen girl at oldest when what he claims happened. The events were almost 25 years before current time. Unless you believe Sadia is around 50 years old.. Kematu's story in no way stacks up.
@@violabeaumont3758 Sorry, but where is it stated that the events of Saadia running away was 25 years ago? Even if it was, we don't know how age affects Redguards, and by your math she would be about 40 which is actually more than possible. Delphine is in her 50s and looks a bit younger than her years. Like I said before, even if faced with a deadly threat, I doubt Alik'r warriors are afraid of death. These are some of the most, if not the most fearsome warriors in all of Tamriel. If you side with Saadia, Kematu even says "I wish it didn't have to come to this", which proves his good faith even when faced with potential death.
P.S., I've also just found out that if you kill Saadia in front of Kematu, he says: "All that effort and you just kill her? You've ruined everything!", which closes the case since Saadia says they have come to assassinate her and not capture her alive
@@violabeaumont3758 " The timeline completely breaks Kematu's story. Sadia could not have been no more than a young teen girl at oldest when what he claims happened." According to? We have no idea how old Saadia is, or how old she was back then. (Also, her story also mention something that happened during the war so...)
I forgot exactly which, but if you’re greedy, you can kill kematu right before or after he paralyzes Saadia outside the stables and get an extra monetary reward. Don’t think it was double though.
I think it’s after the paralysis, and the quest is technically over, Saadia will give you some more money. I could be mistaken.
Personal opinion, both are lying about the Thalmor and Taneth. After the Dominion was driven from Hammerfell, the old factions broke apart again, and Saadia(Crowns) is being pursued by Alik'ir(Forebears) for an unknown reason. They both obfuscate because why would a random warrior in Skyrim care about Redguard politics? They're trying to enlist your aid, and since both Skyrim's major political factions generally agree Thalmor suck(though one is more vocal than the other), they used that as a cover. Saadia likely started it, and Kematu adopted it after hearing her lies from people he encountered.
Actually found if you cast fury on Kematu before he paralyzes her, she won't be hostile with you and hands you the reward. Then I just loot Kematu afterward So, that's usually what I do to maximize the reward
obviously the right choice is whoever pays me more
They pay the exact same 🤷♂️
@@jimbo_1312Then do both chores and get double.🤑
@@jimbo_1312 then whatever result leads to less redguards in skyrim
@@DarkSeraph95So siding with Iman/Saadia.
There is no dilemma and what she may or may not have done doesn't matter. I enter the cave, they try to kill me and when I get to the leader he suddenly wants to talk... Nope, too late for that. He's going to die there in the cave a coward for trying to talk his way out of his own imminent death. What she may or may not have done on the other side of the continent doesn't matter the second they tried to kill me, his lackeys tried to kill me when she only threatened to defend herself decided who is in the wrong. Him and his lackeys were in the wrong.
I always help here i just like her more than him
I like evil ish endings
Currently on an evil ish run
The cat folk of elsewhyre (or how that region is called) are part of the aldmeri dominion. Makes sense that the assassins are khajjit
Elsweyr. Just thought I would let you know how it was spelled. Though its membership in the Dominion is- not direct basically they are an independent client state, not directly under Dominion rule, I'll also add that most Khajiit do NOT like the Thalmor and Elsweyr actually has two seperate states one of which is hard neutral and opposed to the Dominion and the other which is a Dominion client state. But them hiring Khajiit assasins makes complete sense due to proximity and plausible deniability that said in Skyrim its not the best option really as if you are a Khajiit the locals will treat you with disdain no matter what city you go to if you are even let inside because a good number of cities don't let you in even Whiterun. Which actually would explain why the Thalmor would opt for human assassins given a Khajiit in Whiterun would be too suspicious because of Nord Racism.
Who is Kematu going to put her on trial with? They don't have a government and if she sold them out, why run away. Also I think people don't seem to remember the ONLY other named Alik'r you find in all of Skyrim is a F@#ing member of the Dark Brotherhood. They literally make you do all the work for them even letting you kill the Bandits so they don't have to pay them for using their cave. Kematu already knows she's in Whiterun and knows her name too.
1. Hammerfell has a government.
2. She ran away to escape justice.
3. Nazir is not a member of the Alik'r.
Loving the content. Subscribed!
There's a big problem with any argument that Saadia is lying, the events Kematu is talking about happened 21-26 years before the events of Skyrim. Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s.
Even if you want to stretch things to put her in her 30s, that's still a teenage girl who somehow had information that could cause a city to fall in the war, who somehow got in contact with the Dominion, and, for some reason, decided to sell out the city.
This is a pretty bizarre series of events and kind of relies on the assumption that either Saadia is way older than she looks or is some kind of Potema-esque demon seed that was plotting against her people since she was a toddler.
Her angering some thin-skinned Thalmor official and getting assassins sent after her (like what we see happen to several characters, including the player) is way more likely.
What Thalmor Official? There were no Thalmor Officials in Hammerfell during the timespan you mentioned, or at least none with their heads still attached to their bodies.
"There's a big problem with any argument that Saadia is lying" Saadia is clearly lying. Nothing in her story make any sense, and it's contradicted by anything we know about Hammerfell during the war. Also, she even contradict herself lmao. She faints surprise when we tell her that the Alik'r have found her, but then she told us that one of them is in jail. Either she's really dumb and haven't made the connections (which i doubt) or she was just pretending to be surprised for some reason.
"Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s." That's a nice argument, why don't you back it up with a source? And no, her model isn't a source. Skyrim only got 3 models. Her being that young also contradict both her and Kematu story anyways.
"Her angering some thin-skinned Thalmor official" If we believe her story, the Thalmor just want to kill her because she denounced them (which i'm pretty sure, most redguards did during the war lmao) and make no sense when we think about where she is. Why didn't she go back to Hammerfell after the war if the Thalmor was really hunting her? Why she even fled to Skyrim (where there were already Justiciars everywhere)? It make no sense.
"and getting assassins sent after her (like what we see happen to several characters, including the player) is way more likely." Why would they hire random redguards from Hammerfell to do it...? They can just sent justiciars or even Khajiits assassins (that's what they do in the main quest) if they really wanted to kill her. Also, again, if they really wanted to kill her, why don't they have a dossier on her in their ambassy...?
"Saadia is clearly intended to be in her 20s."
That's not a "big problem", that's just something you made up. There's nothing "clear" about her being in her 20s.
Saadia's hair is turning gray. She is not in her 30s.
Why would Alikir warriors listen to a Thalmor? Mercenary they are but to be hited by your invaders is something even mercenaries would refuse
i wonder if saadia (as a noble) did the dirty with a thalmor after realizing her city would fall and kematu was supposed to marry her (or related in some way to her betrothed) but he killed the guy and chases after her to carry out his "justice" because she was "involved with the enemy"
I understand that Saadia's urn showing up in Whiterun is almost certainly a coding oversight, but in my opinion bugs and oversights should be considered canon because they reflect the reality that a video game character exists within.
I side with Saadia even though I believe the Alik'r are truthful because my character just doesn't care. She gave me a job, and I don't go back on my word.
There is no Dilemma. She is guilty. Here is why... Saadia claims that Kematu wishes to take her back because She spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Dominion at that point and time operated with no interference in Skyrim. Basically what I am trying to say is if the Aldmeri wanted her they would just go get her. They would never employ a redguard for her capture. If they can hunt down Eisbern in the ratway they can find a random redgaurd in skyrim. There aren't that many to begin with.
The fact that she said the Thalmor are chasing her immediately gives her away. Hammerfell and the Redguards ceded from the Empire and the Thalmor. They hate the Thalmor and Saadia said she spoke out against the Thalmor which would be welcome in Hammerfell.
Kematu is telling the truth, why else would a professional group of bounty hunters travel all the way to Skyrim just for one woman?