I must say where the hell did all of you lovely people come from? I never would have expected this dumb video to shoot up out of nowhere in the past few days! Either way thank you all very much for watching! :D I also want to add I have played the DS version with the circle pad. It's how I fully 100% it for the first time. YES it does FEEL better than the D-Pad, but it isn't true analog and still only operates in 8 directions. I feel the analog mod still controls a little better imho. More power to those who can play with the circle pad with no issues! I am aware of the plastic nub that would strap on the thumb to use on the touchscreen. I'll admit I've never used it, and assumed it wouldn't be much better than using the stylus. However several have commented that actually using it works quite well with the physical exertion of the nub sorta replicating the physical resistance of an analog stick. While I can't speak from experience, it's another option people can consider on how they wanna play Mario 64 DS, which is the most important thing! As far as 64DS feeling more consistent than the original, I agree! The originals controls can be just as alienating as the DS version, and the DS's controls are more in tune with Galaxy, 3D Land/World, and Odyssey. This is simply a case of me just preferring how the original handled, mainly when it comes to performing all the speed run tricks. I guess I could have added that the DS version may control better for those who are after a more casual/traditional experience. Finally I never forgot about all the content the DS version added, it was simply not the topic of this video however. Unfortunately no amount of new content can help if many people find the controls alienating to begin with. Though I'm happy for those who enjoy the extra content, while enjoying how the DS version controls! Believe me, I wish it didn't bug me as much as it does, even if im more forgiving to most DS detractors. Once again thank you all who sat through this garbage video, I'm hoping to make more of much better quality in the coming months!
I really hope someone someday learns to either fix mario 64 ds' controls to be more snappy or have a version of the original 64 with all of the extra content added in from DS
Unlikely but best outcome would be if either a fan or nintendo rebuilds the game from scratch keeping the best elements of both games while also upgrading them and adding more onto it
There are mod projects that are trying to add DS content to the original Mario 64. Last I checked, they figured out how to implement the silver stars in the old engine.
Having SM64DS on Wii U with the analog camera patch from the home brew store makes playing 64 DS awesome. I’m finally revisiting it for the first time in like 12 years
As someone whose first Mario 64 experience was the DS port, I _genuinely could not tell_ that the original levels were designed for an analog stick. Nintendo put so much thought into making it eight-directionally playable, that I just assumed that was the way the DS version was "intended" to be played, and I had no trouble with it.
I can imagine. I had no problems adjusting to the D-pad, either. It still seems good to me. I do not know what people are complaining about. Maybe they just need to improve their 3D platforming skills.
I havent played since i was a kid, but i dont remember any problems either. Although that was a long time ago, and ive also gone back to play sm64 aftet not remembering any problems with that game as well, but the camera is awful. I even played sunshine and was suprised that the camera was better than sm64, but still pretty rough for me to get used to, which is also something i just didnt have a problem with as a kid. So im curious and i kinda want to pick up sm64ds again just to see what it was like.
Same, I didn't know Super Mario 64 was a thing even though Mario Kart 64 was the first game I've ever played. The console came out around the time I was born. I was introduced to the DS port when the DS Lite came out and I don't remember having any problems with the controls. Played it again a decade later and I still didn't had any problems.
Something to note here: Back in the day with the original DS it came with a wrist strap that had a plastic nub at the bottom. Apparently that was INTENDED for use with games that used the touch screen for movement or camera controls. While that wasn't the best it was still the only "proper" solution for analog-style movement for SM64DS on real hardware. Also at the time of writing this, someone is currently working on an AR code patch for 64DS intended to give proper circle pad compatibility for the 3DS via twilightmenu. I haven't personally tried it yet due to my 3DS still in need of a new battery, but if anyone else wants to take a stab at it feel free to do so!
There's a sign in the game that also instructs you to use the thumb pad. And, movement is like an on screen joystick, relative to where you initially touch down, not based on the map icon. So it's more like a phone's touch joystick.
@@olevet75By default the 3DS's Circle Pad just emulates the DPad, but with mods you can get it to emulate the touch screen to get actual analog movement
I feel like this argument is mostly made by people who don't know these differences exist. Considering that's most people, this video does a fantastic job of explaining why that isn't true. Even so, I think the fundamental argument they're trying to make is "if this game controlled like the original it would fix it" which is still 100% valid.
Oh absolutely. It's just when the analog mod was making the rounds, and people claiming it "fixes" Mario 64 DS, I couldn't help but feel it was disingenuous since there's so much more going on with 64DS than just the lack of analog.
Another detail that bothers me a lot with the DS version, is that you cannot use your Triple-Jump on a "Non-walkable-sloped" surface. In N64, you can triple jump on relatively steep hills.
This "small" issue piles up with the other missing movement options, like Speed kicking and chaining a dive immediately onto any jump and as a result makes the DS version feel more restrictive and less fun, even without the D-Pad controls in mind
I think it's interesting since I grew up with the DS version and didn't have the original, I thought it was an amazing version. I didn't have the original to compare it too so as kid I thought it controlled fine. I still think it's worth a play due to the added Stars, 4 characters to play, and the minigames.
Same honestly, my first encounter with the original Mario 64 was at a kid's party place with an arcade cabinet with so many game roms on it and that game was there and I thought it was a rip-off of Mario 64 DS! Then recently I played that Mario 64 myself and Mario 64 DS and comparing both is like day and night!
I also had a similar experience: I grew up with SM64DS, so in the time I was happy with the controls as I couldn't compare them before to the original version because I didn't own one. It wasn't until a few years ago when I played the original version and realized the difference between the D-Pad and the Joy-Stick controls, but not at all first because I played it on a keyboard and I felt the same D-Pad experience of the video.
One thing people don't really mention when discussing this game is that the original NDS used to come with a wrist strap that had a thumb stylus. So you could fit it on your thumb and use the touch screen like an analog stick. It's totally dumb that later iterations of the DS and 3DS didn't come with this accessory. It really made Mario 64 DS way more playable.
Awesome video! As someone that grew up playing SM64DS and now mostly playing the original, I couldn't quite put all my distaste for the DS controls into words, but this was basically it!
I grew up 64DS on my 3ds and honestly the circle pad makes the movement feel "normal". It has that slight snap which makes the movement feel precise yet the circle still makes it feel like have 360 degree movement even though you only have 8 directions. This all might just be muscle memory from play 64ds over and over.
I unironically prefer the dpad. I have a mild disability in my left thumb that makes it very difficult to move straight forward with a stick. I struggle to do even the early levels in mario 64 with analog. The Ds dpad makes it much easier for me and its more comfortable. the only mild issue is the camera.
Having such a disability must suck. I don't have it myself, but I can oddly relate having played the Dreamcast version of the Toy Story 2 game, which has analogue control so bad you can't move straight with it.
Not the same thing at all but I can’t use side by side sticks on PS controllers and similar controllers due to needing Botox injections in my hands for hyperhidrosis; they make my thumbs very weak and I just can’t use whatever option is at the bottom left (whether it’s the stick or D-Pad). So I relate to certain control schemes just not working, especially PS4 games where you’re mainly using the analog stick (which is most of them)
I grew up with sm64ds but in recent years I’ve found myself enjoying the original much more. I just tried the analog patch on desmume and I was surprised by how little difference it made (although the option is still really nice). I think my biggest problem with ds is how hard it is to correct forward momentum in mid-air. In sm64 you can correct a bad jump by kicking and holding back on the stick, but the kick in ds hardly does anything, so if you make a bad jump you’re basically screwed.
@@dr.c2195 regardless, its not about beating the game or missing jumps. its about the simple fun that SM64's controls have. even if this comment was a joke, SM64DS has enough to platform, but SM64 doesn't even feel like platforming, it feels like a dream
Pretty sure that the weirdness of the side jump on ds with stick is because when you're "moving" the point on the touchscreen there' never a deadzone. I think it's due to how it was programmed in the game and if there was a workaround it should feel much better.
7:35 THANK YOU. People's eyes kind of glaze over when I try to explain that everything in Odyssey cancelling momentum feels horrible. It made a lot more sense in Galaxy where a huge chunk of your platforming was done on very narrow platforms, but in Odyssey? And in 64 DS? _Why_ is this a trend in Mario? It just feels bad.
@@andremalerba5281 there is. Well atleast if you have a modded 3DS you can download a patch that simulates the analog stick as if you were using the touch screen, thereby giving you full analog controls with no need for the run button
Ill be honest, since DS was my first full playthrough of it, i was totally fine with the d pad. I played SM64 on the 64 as a kid but was literally like 6. On the DS i had no issues with it and appreciated the updated art style and multiple characters.
I grew up with both versions at a young age so I appreciated both for different reasons. To be honest I prefer the DS version in almost everyway except the controls.
There was an old interview with miyamoto where he said that an early prototype of sm64 was controlled by a different controller that was similar to the virtual boy controller with 2 dpads, the right one was for the camera just like the c buttons
I had no idea Mario 64 DS was poorly received ! It was my favorite game growing up. Maybe the fact I had not played the original made me enjoy it more since I didn't have to unlearn controls, and never had a problem with those of the DS version
It's amazing that I've played both the original & the DS version. Yet I was able to still finish the remake despite the lack of analog controls. For me, I loved the fact that Yoshi, Luigi, & WARIO, of all people, was playable. Especially after Wario had gotten his 1st 3d platformer on the Gamecube. That was the biggest thing I was crazy back then when I was only 14 after getting this game as my 1st DS game.
Bro needs to trim his script a though, he says things in 5 minutes that could be said in less and repeats lines about how Mario 64 DS controls well and the All-star versions doesn't. I think it could be consolidated
I really appreciate when a video just has an answer to the title at the very beginning, then elaborates more on it. Good video, I feel that SM64 DS would benefit from analog control.
There still gonna be a day someone will have the balls to make 64 ds in the original 64 including the exclusive characters abilities, levels and playable yoshi
Completely out of left field here, but I love that you used music from "Frogger (He's Back)" in this video. I have a nostalgic soft spot for that game and its soundtrack.
Genuine question: why not make a further patch to adjust the DS controls to be more snappy like the original implementation? Of course that would be non-trivial purely due to the technical challenge to reverse the character controller code enough to tweak it that much, but I think it would be worth the community dev time needed. Then you could both have the new content, and also have the best controls-have Princess Peach’s cake and eat it too!
Good video, I started playing the analog hack on my Steam Deck recently and wasn't sure if the control issues I was having were just me or if they actually differed from the N64 version. Interesting to hear how they tweaked things to accommodate the D-Pad.
I still remember getting every star 🌟 on SM64 DS back in my middle school days, and playing the multiplayer with friends during lunch time. It was a quite the blast, though looking back, I always wondered how, even with the DS thumb strap for analog controls, managed to deal with it? I also had a N64 with a copy of SM64 on it, and always went back and forth between them, and something just drew me back to the DS version, which was likely due to the additional content and minigames. It's kind of like MMX6 for most, it's a game you want to hate for technical reasons, but there's always an element or two that makes it loved.
Wish I coulda played the multiplayer, but i didn't have any friends who played 64DS. I'll say i've always prefered the look, charm, aesthetics, atmosphere, and artstyle of the DS version. All the new content really added to the feeling of discovering mysteries in Peach's castle that I always enjoyed.
2:15 I'm not working at Nintendo, but I think the reason for this is that they wanted you to be able to control in-game menus with the DPad, and just mapping the DPad to the Analog stick in the emulator was easier than patching the game to read DPad inputs in menus.
Thanks for addressing Spyro the Dragon's controls. The PS1 itself is fascinating in this discussion, since several games on that console were designed to make use of analog controls, but because DualShock was a specialized controller that not everybody had, developers always needed to consider the D-pad in some form or another. In that sense, the process of converting analog to buttons had been successfully workshopped years before 64 DS. If Nintendo failed to achieve a similar effect, they had no excuse.
That is, besides the fact that they were retroactively doing this adaptation to a game which had already been designed to completion without D-pad movement being so much as a consideration. Still, all things considered, they did well with the cards they were dealt. (And yes, the 3D All-Stars implementation of D-pad controls has no excuse for being so bad. Like, yeah, a game studio that's world-renowned for making quality games can't figure out how to make an analog-to-digital control wrapper that doesn't suck. Sure.)
I don't find Spyro comfortable with the D-Pad. He's heavy and doesn't snap to another direction in a way that feels precise. I usually prefer tank controls like Tomb Raider if controlling with a D-Pad. The best digital directional movement I felt in a 3D space is Crash Bandicoot: Warped, and the 3D Gex games.
Another thing that most don't talk about: the DS version has much more muted colors than the OG. Look at 11:37 and see the differences in the grass. In the N64 version it was practically neon green, the blues in the sky were much more vibrant. It's not that more vibrant colors is always better, but in a cartoonish fairy tale game like Mario you really don't want desaturated colors.
It was fascinating to hear you break down your problems with DS's controls. I personally didn't play the original until 3D All Stars for... some reason and played DS a few years before it. Funnily enough, I had almost the inverse experience as you when adjusting to the original. It has many control quirks that got close to killing me many times- the worst offender being the little half-circle turn Mario does when you turn around sometimes. I know you can avoid it by stopping completely before turning, but I always forget that and it can make moving on smaller platforms nightmarish. Also, the original has more jank collision that occasionally screwed me over. I always go to jump on the rotating log in Tall Tall Mountain only to hit a random invisible wall and get sent back down to the bottom. Or the moments when the game can't decide if you're on a ledge or not (0:21). It looks really funny, but it's not so funny when it sends you to the bottom of Tick Tock Clock. These are all relatively small issues, but they add up to DS being the more comfortable version of the game to me. Maybe playing the original more will change my mind, though. As I said, I'm relatively new to both versions.
I got 150 stars in Mario64DS on a DSlite using d-pad and buttons, I never had a real issue with the D-pad controls, but hey, if people can ejoy it with analog controls and feel more comfortable controls, it's fine. On the other hand I never tried doing any kind of speedrun or whatever, so maybe that why I never cared.
My biggest issue with Mario 64 DS is the existential dread that comes from not knowing if I'm me, or Yoshi wearing a me hat after entering a room with my name on it.
As someone who recently got the mod on my Wii U, I needed this video. Something felt off to me while playing, and I'm glad this video explains why that is.
I've always had this view on Super Mario 64 DS, in that it would have obviously been better with analog stick support, but it wouldn't save the game... because it doesn't need saving.
The D-Pad's gradual movement was definitely to emulate an analog feel, but in practice I think it works REALLY well. The extra characters, extra stars, extra bosses, and the PORTABILITY makes it my fav version of SM64....at least until 3D All Star came out, so now analog AND portable is possible and works incredible.
64 DS is superior to 64 because even though the D-Pad isn't as good as the Analog stick, but the game was built around that burden, including an actually good cameras and loads of new features and content that improves on the original in every way, except for one star in Dire Dire Docks, but that's it
I've always had a problem with how 64DS handled, which is why the original has remained my favorite throughout the years. The original just handles so perfectly, and you can notice pretty quickly even when using an analog stick on the DS version. This video is very cathartic to me! Thank you.
Personally, the issue was the default running speed. I think that it should have been the other way around, holding the button to walk instead would have at least made it easier to pickup and without adjusting your muscle memory.
Not where I thought this was gonna go, but great video. Even if the analogue stick felt better though... -Playing as Wario: You do it when you absolutely have to, that's it. -Switching characters is tedious, so I spent most of my time as Yoshi and selected the hat of who I needed and tried not to lose it. -Wanna wait for rabbits you already caught to randomly be replaced with a sparkly white rabbit 7 whole times so that you can collect 1 power star for 100%? If you already have the other 149 power stars, now's the time to choose Yoshi and constantly enter and exit the castle because Yoshi has 5 rabbits outside the castle, right in front of the bridge. Keep reloading the area until 1 or more of the rabbits are white (bit usually only 1). Once you get all 7, the last star is yours. Great "content"!
to be honest, i would prefer to play with a snappy d pad rather than the smoothing they added. it makes it very hard to control in my opinion. even tough its not ideal, id find it much easier.
Something I dislike about the ds port that not many people go over is how much time is wasted when you have to switch a character to get a star. If you don't count the bowser levels, there are only two stars where you're forced to play as Yoshi, but there are stars where you have to play as Wario, and when you're in the second floor, switching to him is a pain. It doesn't help that the caps in some levels are pretty far away from the stars location, and if you get hit, there's a chance you get the long hit-stun animation so the cap disappears. A good example of this is the 100 coin star in rainbow ride. You're playing as either Luigi or Wario and find out the only way to get the blue coins is to wall jump, and the Mario Cap is all the way up in the tower. Yoshi bypasses this by being able to select a cap from the select screen, but I wish every characters was capable of that.
I've not played the DS version of the game but I wanna mention something. It sounds like you're coming from this as someone highly tuned to the N64 version of the game, like a speedrunner maybe. but that is... not the experience of every person who wants to play SM64. Remember that while there are things that throw you off in this version, there are also plenty of issues in the original, like the sometimes suicidal way he turns around, and the wall kick that is... hard to get used to until you learn to listen for the failure sound. While you may find the DS version slippery, others may find the original to feel far more "slippery" thanks to the janky way Mario sometimes moves. This is all assuming they actually fixed the suicide thing in DS, which maybe they didn't but it sounds like it'd be ABYSMAL on a D-pad so they probably fixed it. Things like rolling the stick to backflip are things you're used to as an advanced player, but that I never did as a more casual player.
The "suicidal" turning in Mario 64 is mildly annoying, but I learned how to avoid it. It only does that if Mario is still moving. If he's stationary, he's easy to turn. It would be preferable to have him turn with ease if he's only walking, but 3D analogue movement had to start somewhere. The wall kick, however, is annoying even with practice.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 For some reason my brain calls it "Dimps timing" even though SM64 came first. Sonic Advance's Special Stages had something similar-- Listen for the beginning of the failure sound, then press the button. Gets it right very consistently.
If I had a nickel for every handheld remake that had one less Analog Stick than the original and suffers as a result, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice, right? For those of you wondering, the other one was Ape Escape P/On the Loose.
64 DS was my first introduction to the game, so I'm completely fine with the controls, I've actually played through it a few times, it's one of my favourite games, I do have 3d all stars, so I'll have to try the original some time
I've always had problems with not just the controls, but the movement mechanics compared to the original. Here are the problems I encountered when playing SM64DS that detracted from my experience: - Wall kicks no longer allow you to grab the ledge behind you - Ledge grabbing from a long jump is much less consistent, sometimes impossible - Can't do the third jump of a triple jump off of slippery slopes anymore - Diving doesn't prevent fall damage anymore - Much more difficult to consistently angle wall kicks precisely - HOW DO I HOLD THE RUN BUTTON AND PRESS THE ATTACK AT THE SAME TIME??? I can't hold Y and press A without accidentally pressing X or B in the process, and the original game doesn't allow you to remap the controls, it's infuriating. - Can't continuous jump from a side somersault anymore - Can't wall kick from a long jump anymore - Can't backwards somersault in succession - Diving during a jump stunts your height, which prevents a huge diving triple jump when pressing dive right after the third jump in the original - You can't swivel to change the direction of a side somersault
Thanks for documenting these deeper changes that I couldn't find anyone posting about elsewhere. The dive change is a killer for me, really disappointed with that.
Dude, thank you so much for answering the title question right away. I was seriously going to skip to the end of the video to see yhe consensus, but since you didnt bait your audience and gave us a straight answer right off the gate, i appreciated that so much i stayed to warch the full video. And im glad i did, great analysis!
A couple things I'd like to add that you missed are that you can't air kick into a double jump or long jump into a wallkick. That felt _incredibly_ restraining for me as triple jumps took so much longer to perform and they just took an entire tool away from my arsenal by removing the long jump wallkick. They very _least_ they could've done would've been to have it work like in the original game where you'd have to time it based on a 4 frame window. You also can't triple jump off of slippery slopes, which is _another_ tool they took away. Oh, and while probably not intentional mechanics, you can't jump kick up slopes or walljump off of a wall, hold back, and grab the ledge if the ledge is a bit too high for a triple jump. It's also really good for grabbing far away ledges by doing that after a long jump wallkick. All of these tools make you feel like a god damn Kung Fu master after you get really good at using them and they took _ALL_ of that away.
Whenever I see someone Longjump Wallkick in the original "What Sorcery is this?" you can tell which version I played more. If I ever made a 64 Rom Hack I would change wall jumping to be just like it is in the DS Version which means you would bonk into any wall you long jumped into.
@@WaterKirby1994 Removing it would just unnecessarily remove an extremely useful tool, though. It'd quite heavily limit your movement options for no good reason.
I recently installed this mod with a button remap, only to discover that while the Circle Pad is emulating the Touch Screen, it's still emulating the D-pad at the same time. This might've effected your experience.
That's fair. I'm aware countless people struggle with turning in the original too. Though I feel the sensitivity in the DS version is far worse, especially with analog controls.
@@Mr.Welbig I am completely flabbergasted by the fact that both of you(?!) rotate the joystick to perform a sideways-jump!! Why would you NOT snap the stick the opposite way as a default, intuitive motion?? 😮
found the audio to be nice in this video despite the low microphone quality. hopefully skullex can get around to finishing star world so we can see what his take on analog Mario 64 DS is. If i remember right he stopped updating his analog mod because people kept stealing credit or something, though im not sure.
64 DS with an analog stick kinda just looks like it controls like Mario Galaxy but with a lot more moves, and honestly that is probably better for me as someone who grew up playing Galaxy 2 long before any other 3D Mario game.
I think the difference between the controls in Mario 64 DS and the original can be boiled down to how they tried making them more consistent in the DS version. The original had those things you mentioned were moves flow into each other more naturally and keep your momentum, and that's what makes chaining moves in 64 so fun and natural, while the DS version has more clear limits. it's like the difference between super Mario 64s controls and 3D world. This can be seen especially with long jumping, wall jumping, and like you mentioned diving as well as other moves that were made consistent in an attempt to try and get rid of any yank that can be found with original game's inconsistent controls, wether or not this change is for the better is entirely up to preference.
I'd always wondered how that would work out. I remember a much younger me taping a broken controller's analog stick to a quarter and then taping that to the dpad, just in hopes it would work better (obviously I understand better now why that wouldn't just create analog input). I had a feeling this sort of effect might happen without mods to revert the movement physics, but it's sad to see that that's actually the case. Great exploration of this though. I'm really glad someone went through and analyzed it all.
Is there no argument for the "extra content" of DS actually making the game worse, because it ruins the overall pacing? And sure you can play as Wario, but is he any fun? Controls aside, I've always seen DS as unwelcome extra gravy on an already perfectly balanced game.
Hey, person who got 150 stars in SM64DS here! THANK you for explaining this! You explained it well! But I beat the game on my 3DS XL and had the same problems.
Question: Do you think the controls (or physics) could've been better in the DS version than how they turned out? You did mention a few things, but I'm not sure changing all of those would make the controls better since some may be made in favour of the D-Pad. I'm in the SM64DS modding community. If I ever make a (full) hack, I'd be interested to know whether the gameplay could be made more comfortable. After seeing this video, I probably wouldn't do something like making the turns snappier like the D-Pad controls in 3D All-Stars, since that clearly isn't really ideal with this kind of level design.
I honestly wouldn't know since I'm not a programmer. We know how 64DS plays with analog support. We know how the original plays with a DPad. Surely a full custom hack has the potential of playing better than base 64DS since level design can be created to fully compliment how 64DS controls. I feel the reason 64DS gets a bad rap because it's compared to the original, and has most of the original level design. The only mystery now is, could 64DS even be playable if it had the physics of the original? With a DPad it could suck because of the snappy turns. But with an analog stick? Could be interesting, and after seeing people put Mario64 into Sonic Generations I hope something like that could be possible in the future.
@@Mr.Welbig Ah okay. Yea, that would be interesting to see. I have some basic programming knowledge, but programming physics of characters is still very complicated. 😅
@@Mr.Welbig Hey, there's this port of the original SM64 for DSi, search for SM64 DSi. It's for DSi only because it uses that system's extra RAM. Maybe you could play that sometime and make a video about it. I don't expect it to play better than SM64DS, but since it's more faithful to the original physics, it could be interesting to have a look at it.
See... I don't get it, it plays perfectly fine, I've always played it with a dpad, hell if anything I played the original with a keyboard, never had a single problem with it not being analog.
That game is my childhood. Glad to see this little project making me able to expirience this in some sort way or another, even if its not quite like the original SM64
For me personally there is just one reason that lifts the DS version over the original: playable Yoshi. You don't get to control Yoshi in a 3D space very often (outside of spin-offs and having him be a mount for Mario), and having him here for it is just great. I can still recognize the original game as the superior version though because of the control issues in the DS game. Good video showing the kinds of changes Nintendo made to accomodate for the D-pad controls though regardless!
I'll defend Mario 64 ds and the dpad controls! If you grew up with spyro and crash on the ps1, you're familiar with the feel of a character in a 3d space with 8 directions. Like you brought up, spyro and mario 64 ds use gradual turning and kind of steer the player almost like when you play gran turismo with a dpad. Plus, while the dpad is much less precise than a stick in general, there are a few things that are actually easier to pull off. Flipping and somersaulting in the opposite direction is as simple as jumping while pushing the opposite direction. There are also a few spots (like the red coin maze in rainbow road) where you can play kind of 2d and precisely navigate. Besides the controls, i still prefer mario 64 ds because there are 30 more stars, more variety in gameplay (3 more characters with different physics), a map on the bottom screen that often shows where a star is while being vague enough to not give it away, and like a shit ton of minigames.
Interesting thing about Mario's triple jump being significantly higher than in the N64 version: that's actually a buff introduced in Mario Sunshine. Sunshine increased the height of Mario's triple jump from Mario 64, and then that buff was kept for both 64 DS and Mario Galaxy (and Galaxy 2 of course), so in Mario Galaxy he also has the really high triple jump. But then in Odyssey they lowered Mario's triple jump again back to roughly what it was in OG Mario 64, actually I think it might be lower, I think Odyssey might have the lowest triple jump of any of the 3D Mario games. However, I believe Yoshi's triple jump height in DS is roughly the same as Mario's in the N64 version actually, I could be wrong but it seemed to me like overall Yoshi scales more accurately to N64 Mario than Mario does which is interesting, Mario in DS not only jumps higher on some jumps but I think also runs faster than on N64 (though his run cycle animation is much slower so it might not always feel like it).
I noticed the nerfed triple jump in Odyssey too. I would suspect the buff was added in Sunshine to accommodate the larger levels, and kept in Galaxy for the more restricted controls. Then in Odyssey it was probably nerfed to encourage Captures and more skilled play. So 64DS is kinda an odd ball for having the buff without any game design around it. Honestly wouldn't be much of a problem if it weren't for how far Mario & co can strafe in mid air when they jump.
I wanna point out the game is playable with a 3DS circle pad. A lot of DS games support the circle pad even though they were released years prior. Made this game and the kingdom hearts experience a lot less frustrating.
I'm pretty sure SM64DS was the entire reason the original DS came with that strap with the nub on it. I actually played it with that, and I remember enjoying it, but I also remember the touchscreen control being a pain in the ass.
For the PC port, we already have works of Luigi and Wario being playable already, and I'm sure Yoshi is either bound to be or already made playable as well. If there's a mod pack that'll add the levels and all the other kinds of content from DS into the PC port, then that would make the PC port feel like the truest, definitive, and complete package of Super Mario 64 ever!
I first played SM64DS for a little while, but then I played emulated SM64 with a KEYBOARD. I did play that for a longer time, but even then, that felt waaaay better than SM64DS
Ndsfowarder (a homebrew app for 3ds) allows circle pad movement as well as turning the the camera with L + Circle Pad. This fixes the 2 main problems with mario 64 ds; Movement and Camera. Plus, this can be run natively on the 3ds, without an emulator and on-the-go!
I must say where the hell did all of you lovely people come from? I never would have expected this dumb video to shoot up out of nowhere in the past few days!
Either way thank you all very much for watching! :D
I also want to add I have played the DS version with the circle pad. It's how I fully 100% it for the first time. YES it does FEEL better than the D-Pad, but it isn't true analog and still only operates in 8 directions. I feel the analog mod still controls a little better imho. More power to those who can play with the circle pad with no issues!
I am aware of the plastic nub that would strap on the thumb to use on the touchscreen. I'll admit I've never used it, and assumed it wouldn't be much better than using the stylus. However several have commented that actually using it works quite well with the physical exertion of the nub sorta replicating the physical resistance of an analog stick. While I can't speak from experience, it's another option people can consider on how they wanna play Mario 64 DS, which is the most important thing!
As far as 64DS feeling more consistent than the original, I agree! The originals controls can be just as alienating as the DS version, and the DS's controls are more in tune with Galaxy, 3D Land/World, and Odyssey. This is simply a case of me just preferring how the original handled, mainly when it comes to performing all the speed run tricks. I guess I could have added that the DS version may control better for those who are after a more casual/traditional experience.
Finally I never forgot about all the content the DS version added, it was simply not the topic of this video however. Unfortunately no amount of new content can help if many people find the controls alienating to begin with. Though I'm happy for those who enjoy the extra content, while enjoying how the DS version controls! Believe me, I wish it didn't bug me as much as it does, even if im more forgiving to most DS detractors.
Once again thank you all who sat through this garbage video, I'm hoping to make more of much better quality in the coming months!
RUclips recommendations brought me here
RUclips works in very odd ways
Great video and introduction, hope for the best
The algorithm blessed you my friend
Work, lol. That’s where I’ve been. 60 hour weeks for like 11 months now.
I really hope someone someday learns to either fix mario 64 ds' controls to be more snappy or have a version of the original 64 with all of the extra content added in from DS
Unlikely but best outcome would be if either a fan or nintendo rebuilds the game from scratch keeping the best elements of both games while also upgrading them and adding more onto it
if its a fan tho adding more onto it would be asking to much and just updating the textures and rebuilding it with the best features from both games
There are mod projects that are trying to add DS content to the original Mario 64. Last I checked, they figured out how to implement the silver stars in the old engine.
@@mariochaosspear Do the owners of these projects have a RUclips channel?
There’s a patch for analog controls online. Not sure if it works, will try it out
Having SM64DS on Wii U with the analog camera patch from the home brew store makes playing 64 DS awesome. I’m finally revisiting it for the first time in like 12 years
How do I install the patch update?
@RED ??? Ofc he would know. How else would've he installed it
3ds version?
@@WaddlejpgPlaying on 3DS isn't that much better unfortunately
@@jaguar4120 google it lol, how do you think he learned
As someone whose first Mario 64 experience was the DS port, I _genuinely could not tell_ that the original levels were designed for an analog stick. Nintendo put so much thought into making it eight-directionally playable, that I just assumed that was the way the DS version was "intended" to be played, and I had no trouble with it.
I can imagine. I had no problems adjusting to the D-pad, either. It still seems good to me. I do not know what people are complaining about. Maybe they just need to improve their 3D platforming skills.
I havent played since i was a kid, but i dont remember any problems either. Although that was a long time ago, and ive also gone back to play sm64 aftet not remembering any problems with that game as well, but the camera is awful. I even played sunshine and was suprised that the camera was better than sm64, but still pretty rough for me to get used to, which is also something i just didnt have a problem with as a kid. So im curious and i kinda want to pick up sm64ds again just to see what it was like.
Me too
Same with me
Same, I didn't know Super Mario 64 was a thing even though Mario Kart 64 was the first game I've ever played. The console came out around the time I was born. I was introduced to the DS port when the DS Lite came out and I don't remember having any problems with the controls. Played it again a decade later and I still didn't had any problems.
Something to note here: Back in the day with the original DS it came with a wrist strap that had a plastic nub at the bottom. Apparently that was INTENDED for use with games that used the touch screen for movement or camera controls. While that wasn't the best it was still the only "proper" solution for analog-style movement for SM64DS on real hardware.
Also at the time of writing this, someone is currently working on an AR code patch for 64DS intended to give proper circle pad compatibility for the 3DS via twilightmenu. I haven't personally tried it yet due to my 3DS still in need of a new battery, but if anyone else wants to take a stab at it feel free to do so!
where can i find this patch i wanna try it out
fr
@@hola-gy8te source or did you make this up?
Tested it and it works perfectly
There's a sign in the game that also instructs you to use the thumb pad. And, movement is like an on screen joystick, relative to where you initially touch down, not based on the map icon. So it's more like a phone's touch joystick.
Playing it on the 3ds first time was amazing. My hands finally didn’t hurt after playing 64 DS. The touchscreen controls always felt weird.
Same 😎
Does work on 3da natively with left thumstick without need for modification
@@olevet75By default the 3DS's Circle Pad just emulates the DPad, but with mods you can get it to emulate the touch screen to get actual analog movement
As someone who grew up playing the 3ds version, the 3ds joystick is so bad sometimes I prefered to use the d-pad
I feel like this argument is mostly made by people who don't know these differences exist. Considering that's most people, this video does a fantastic job of explaining why that isn't true. Even so, I think the fundamental argument they're trying to make is "if this game controlled like the original it would fix it" which is still 100% valid.
Oh absolutely. It's just when the analog mod was making the rounds, and people claiming it "fixes" Mario 64 DS, I couldn't help but feel it was disingenuous since there's so much more going on with 64DS than just the lack of analog.
@NumberOneRated1997 indeed
Another detail that bothers me a lot with the DS version, is that you cannot use your Triple-Jump on a "Non-walkable-sloped" surface. In N64, you can triple jump on relatively steep hills.
Considering how they massarced Cat Mario in super mario maker 2, I'd chalk it up to INTENTIONAL game "fixing"
@@Manavine It might just be something that they overlooked, considering that the game was built from the ground up (?)
OH NOOOOO! THE WORLD IS OVER BECAUSE OF THIS ONE DETAIL
@@HistoryandReviews Truth! It's a tragedy!!
Let us curl up and cry
This "small" issue piles up with the other missing movement options, like Speed kicking and chaining a dive immediately onto any jump and as a result makes the DS version feel more restrictive and less fun, even without the D-Pad controls in mind
I think it's interesting since I grew up with the DS version and didn't have the original, I thought it was an amazing version. I didn't have the original to compare it too so as kid I thought it controlled fine. I still think it's worth a play due to the added Stars, 4 characters to play, and the minigames.
Same honestly, my first encounter with the original Mario 64 was at a kid's party place with an arcade cabinet with so many game roms on it and that game was there and I thought it was a rip-off of Mario 64 DS! Then recently I played that Mario 64 myself and Mario 64 DS and comparing both is like day and night!
I also had a similar experience: I grew up with SM64DS, so in the time I was happy with the controls as I couldn't compare them before to the original version because I didn't own one. It wasn't until a few years ago when I played the original version and realized the difference between the D-Pad and the Joy-Stick controls, but not at all first because I played it on a keyboard and I felt the same D-Pad experience of the video.
Worthless added stars and 4 characters that aren’t needed since they did everything Mario could do ALONE on 64
@@HistoryandReviews Not really. Luigi is positively broken.
@@MarceloKatayama wrong
One thing people don't really mention when discussing this game is that the original NDS used to come with a wrist strap that had a thumb stylus. So you could fit it on your thumb and use the touch screen like an analog stick. It's totally dumb that later iterations of the DS and 3DS didn't come with this accessory. It really made Mario 64 DS way more playable.
Seems like a waist of time and money to put it in later versions especially the 3ds
Yes! That's what I used to use.
It worked surprisingly well too once you got used to it
Awesome video! As someone that grew up playing SM64DS and now mostly playing the original, I couldn't quite put all my distaste for the DS controls into words, but this was basically it!
oh hi
I'm now unironically the 64th like
Gets straight to the point ✔️
Good writing ✔️
Nice audio ✔️
No ads ✔️
Getting a great small channel recommended by the algorithm is a gift
I grew up 64DS on my 3ds and honestly the circle pad makes the movement feel "normal". It has that slight snap which makes the movement feel precise yet the circle still makes it feel like have 360 degree movement even though you only have 8 directions. This all might just be muscle memory from play 64ds over and over.
I unironically prefer the dpad. I have a mild disability in my left thumb that makes it very difficult to move straight forward with a stick. I struggle to do even the early levels in mario 64 with analog. The Ds dpad makes it much easier for me and its more comfortable. the only mild issue is the camera.
Having such a disability must suck. I don't have it myself, but I can oddly relate having played the Dreamcast version of the Toy Story 2 game, which has analogue control so bad you can't move straight with it.
Not the same thing at all but I can’t use side by side sticks on PS controllers and similar controllers due to needing Botox injections in my hands for hyperhidrosis; they make my thumbs very weak and I just can’t use whatever option is at the bottom left (whether it’s the stick or D-Pad). So I relate to certain control schemes just not working, especially PS4 games where you’re mainly using the analog stick (which is most of them)
I grew up with sm64ds but in recent years I’ve found myself enjoying the original much more. I just tried the analog patch on desmume and I was surprised by how little difference it made (although the option is still really nice). I think my biggest problem with ds is how hard it is to correct forward momentum in mid-air. In sm64 you can correct a bad jump by kicking and holding back on the stick, but the kick in ds hardly does anything, so if you make a bad jump you’re basically screwed.
not even the kick, just going backwards is terrible in general in SM64DS
@@tafu4049 very true, I just notice it the most with the kick
I solved that problem by getting good.
@@dr.c2195 based. Bad controls? More like skill issue amirite
@@dr.c2195 regardless, its not about beating the game or missing jumps. its about the simple fun that SM64's controls have.
even if this comment was a joke, SM64DS has enough to platform, but SM64 doesn't even feel like platforming, it feels like a dream
Pretty sure that the weirdness of the side jump on ds with stick is because when you're "moving" the point on the touchscreen there' never a deadzone. I think it's due to how it was programmed in the game and if there was a workaround it should feel much better.
7:35 THANK YOU. People's eyes kind of glaze over when I try to explain that everything in Odyssey cancelling momentum feels horrible. It made a lot more sense in Galaxy where a huge chunk of your platforming was done on very narrow platforms, but in Odyssey? And in 64 DS? _Why_ is this a trend in Mario? It just feels bad.
I gotta say though playing on the 3ds with the circle pad as if your playing 3D land it's actually pretty comfortable.
Playing Mario 64 DS on 3DS feels like playing a slightly more jank version of Mario 3D Land
Yea, it’s so weird that it doesn’t fix anything but it fixes nearly everything.
It's way better! But it's still weird for me because the walking speed is just awful! I would love to have an always run option!
@@andremalerba5281 there is.
Well atleast if you have a modded 3DS you can download a patch that simulates the analog stick as if you were using the touch screen, thereby giving you full analog controls with no need for the run button
Ill be honest, since DS was my first full playthrough of it, i was totally fine with the d pad. I played SM64 on the 64 as a kid but was literally like 6. On the DS i had no issues with it and appreciated the updated art style and multiple characters.
I grew up with both versions at a young age so I appreciated both for different reasons. To be honest I prefer the DS version in almost everyway except the controls.
Same. I've never had issues with the DS version and I played the N64 first, but I was like really young
There was an old interview with miyamoto where he said that an early prototype of sm64 was controlled by a different controller that was similar to the virtual boy controller with 2 dpads, the right one was for the camera just like the c buttons
I had no idea Mario 64 DS was poorly received ! It was my favorite game growing up. Maybe the fact I had not played the original made me enjoy it more since I didn't have to unlearn controls, and never had a problem with those of the DS version
It's amazing that I've played both the original & the DS version. Yet I was able to still finish the remake despite the lack of analog controls. For me, I loved the fact that Yoshi, Luigi, & WARIO, of all people, was playable. Especially after Wario had gotten his 1st 3d platformer on the Gamecube. That was the biggest thing I was crazy back then when I was only 14 after getting this game as my 1st DS game.
The smallest RUclips channels really do be making some of the best content nowadays it's crazy
I'm subscribed to a channel called Farlands Design Den. A small channel run by a professional game designer, and the quality is unmatched.
Real shit, I’ve never seen a comment section so descriptive it’s kinda satisfying💯
Real
Bro needs to trim his script a though, he says things in 5 minutes that could be said in less and repeats lines about how Mario 64 DS controls well and the All-star versions doesn't. I think it could be consolidated
I really appreciate when a video just has an answer to the title at the very beginning, then elaborates more on it. Good video, I feel that SM64 DS would benefit from analog control.
There still gonna be a day someone will have the balls to make 64 ds in the original 64 including the exclusive characters abilities, levels and playable yoshi
But if we can't get all the addicting touchscreen minigames too, what's the point? 😔
@@MxPokirby When there's a will, there's a way.
there's plenty of character mods, including my man waluigi with his own moveset and all
If you mean like porting 64DS to the original 64 then I have good news for you, there are some people actually doing it
@GoombyTheTaco ex-coop
Completely out of left field here, but I love that you used music from "Frogger (He's Back)" in this video. I have a nostalgic soft spot for that game and its soundtrack.
Deadass, having it be my outro was the first decision I made when I decided to try making videos. Love that track and love that game.
Genuine question: why not make a further patch to adjust the DS controls to be more snappy like the original implementation?
Of course that would be non-trivial purely due to the technical challenge to reverse the character controller code enough to tweak it that much, but I think it would be worth the community dev time needed.
Then you could both have the new content, and also have the best controls-have Princess Peach’s cake and eat it too!
Good video, I started playing the analog hack on my Steam Deck recently and wasn't sure if the control issues I was having were just me or if they actually differed from the N64 version. Interesting to hear how they tweaked things to accommodate the D-Pad.
I still remember getting every star 🌟 on SM64 DS back in my middle school days, and playing the multiplayer with friends during lunch time. It was a quite the blast, though looking back, I always wondered how, even with the DS thumb strap for analog controls, managed to deal with it?
I also had a N64 with a copy of SM64 on it, and always went back and forth between them, and something just drew me back to the DS version, which was likely due to the additional content and minigames. It's kind of like MMX6 for most, it's a game you want to hate for technical reasons, but there's always an element or two that makes it loved.
Wish I coulda played the multiplayer, but i didn't have any friends who played 64DS. I'll say i've always prefered the look, charm, aesthetics, atmosphere, and artstyle of the DS version. All the new content really added to the feeling of discovering mysteries in Peach's castle that I always enjoyed.
2:15 I'm not working at Nintendo, but I think the reason for this is that they wanted you to be able to control in-game menus with the DPad, and just mapping the DPad to the Analog stick in the emulator was easier than patching the game to read DPad inputs in menus.
Thanks for addressing Spyro the Dragon's controls. The PS1 itself is fascinating in this discussion, since several games on that console were designed to make use of analog controls, but because DualShock was a specialized controller that not everybody had, developers always needed to consider the D-pad in some form or another. In that sense, the process of converting analog to buttons had been successfully workshopped years before 64 DS. If Nintendo failed to achieve a similar effect, they had no excuse.
That is, besides the fact that they were retroactively doing this adaptation to a game which had already been designed to completion without D-pad movement being so much as a consideration. Still, all things considered, they did well with the cards they were dealt. (And yes, the 3D All-Stars implementation of D-pad controls has no excuse for being so bad. Like, yeah, a game studio that's world-renowned for making quality games can't figure out how to make an analog-to-digital control wrapper that doesn't suck. Sure.)
I don't find Spyro comfortable with the D-Pad. He's heavy and doesn't snap to another direction in a way that feels precise.
I usually prefer tank controls like Tomb Raider if controlling with a D-Pad. The best digital directional movement I felt in a 3D space is Crash Bandicoot: Warped, and the 3D Gex games.
Another thing that most don't talk about: the DS version has much more muted colors than the OG. Look at 11:37 and see the differences in the grass. In the N64 version it was practically neon green, the blues in the sky were much more vibrant. It's not that more vibrant colors is always better, but in a cartoonish fairy tale game like Mario you really don't want desaturated colors.
It was fascinating to hear you break down your problems with DS's controls. I personally didn't play the original until 3D All Stars for... some reason and played DS a few years before it.
Funnily enough, I had almost the inverse experience as you when adjusting to the original. It has many control quirks that got close to killing me many times- the worst offender being the little half-circle turn Mario does when you turn around sometimes. I know you can avoid it by stopping completely before turning, but I always forget that and it can make moving on smaller platforms nightmarish.
Also, the original has more jank collision that occasionally screwed me over. I always go to jump on the rotating log in Tall Tall Mountain only to hit a random invisible wall and get sent back down to the bottom. Or the moments when the game can't decide if you're on a ledge or not (0:21). It looks really funny, but it's not so funny when it sends you to the bottom of Tick Tock Clock. These are all relatively small issues, but they add up to DS being the more comfortable version of the game to me.
Maybe playing the original more will change my mind, though. As I said, I'm relatively new to both versions.
"This admittedly has caused me to kill myself on a few occasions from muscle memory taking over."
this is so relatable
I got 150 stars in Mario64DS on a DSlite using d-pad and buttons, I never had a real issue with the D-pad controls, but hey, if people can ejoy it with analog controls and feel more comfortable controls, it's fine.
On the other hand I never tried doing any kind of speedrun or whatever, so maybe that why I never cared.
Bro same
My biggest issue with Mario 64 DS is the existential dread that comes from not knowing if I'm me, or Yoshi wearing a me hat after entering a room with my name on it.
wow the sideways air movement looks insane in DS
Idk why but there is so much charm with the thought of Mario 64 getting a remaster on the ds
The biggest issue for me was a running button.
As someone who recently got the mod on my Wii U, I needed this video. Something felt off to me while playing, and I'm glad this video explains why that is.
I've always had this view on Super Mario 64 DS, in that it would have obviously been better with analog stick support, but it wouldn't save the game... because it doesn't need saving.
▪️
I always thought it was a bizarre choice to not have an analog stick on the first DS... or *atleast* on the DS lite.
🟥
Theres only a handful of 3d platformers on the ds @2NDFLB-CLERK
The D-Pad's gradual movement was definitely to emulate an analog feel, but in practice I think it works REALLY well.
The extra characters, extra stars, extra bosses, and the PORTABILITY makes it my fav version of SM64....at least until 3D All Star came out, so now analog AND portable is possible and works incredible.
64 DS is superior to 64 because even though the D-Pad isn't as good as the Analog stick, but the game was built around that burden, including an actually good cameras and loads of new features and content that improves on the original in every way, except for one star in Dire Dire Docks, but that's it
I've always had a problem with how 64DS handled, which is why the original has remained my favorite throughout the years. The original just handles so perfectly, and you can notice pretty quickly even when using an analog stick on the DS version. This video is very cathartic to me! Thank you.
Personally, the issue was the default running speed.
I think that it should have been the other way around, holding the button to walk instead would have at least made it easier to pickup and without adjusting your muscle memory.
a romhacking scene for 64ds would be really cool. not that ive ever made a romhack, but still.
Not where I thought this was gonna go, but great video. Even if the analogue stick felt better though...
-Playing as Wario: You do it when you absolutely have to, that's it.
-Switching characters is tedious, so I spent most of my time as Yoshi and selected the hat of who I needed and tried not to lose it.
-Wanna wait for rabbits you already caught to randomly be replaced with a sparkly white rabbit 7 whole times so that you can collect 1 power star for 100%? If you already have the other 149 power stars, now's the time to choose Yoshi and constantly enter and exit the castle because Yoshi has 5 rabbits outside the castle, right in front of the bridge. Keep reloading the area until 1 or more of the rabbits are white (bit usually only 1). Once you get all 7, the last star is yours. Great "content"!
For anyone watching this, recently a patch has been released for the 3ds that allows proper movement with the circle pad if you have a modded 3ds
to be honest, i would prefer to play with a snappy d pad rather than the smoothing they added. it makes it very hard to control in my opinion. even tough its not ideal, id find it much easier.
I prefer snappy movement as well. Something like Crash 3 or the 3D Gex games.
Something I dislike about the ds port that not many people go over is how much time is wasted when you have to switch a character to get a star. If you don't count the bowser levels, there are only two stars where you're forced to play as Yoshi, but there are stars where you have to play as Wario, and when you're in the second floor, switching to him is a pain. It doesn't help that the caps in some levels are pretty far away from the stars location, and if you get hit, there's a chance you get the long hit-stun animation so the cap disappears. A good example of this is the 100 coin star in rainbow ride. You're playing as either Luigi or Wario and find out the only way to get the blue coins is to wall jump, and the Mario Cap is all the way up in the tower. Yoshi bypasses this by being able to select a cap from the select screen, but I wish every characters was capable of that.
I've not played the DS version of the game but I wanna mention something. It sounds like you're coming from this as someone highly tuned to the N64 version of the game, like a speedrunner maybe. but that is... not the experience of every person who wants to play SM64. Remember that while there are things that throw you off in this version, there are also plenty of issues in the original, like the sometimes suicidal way he turns around, and the wall kick that is... hard to get used to until you learn to listen for the failure sound. While you may find the DS version slippery, others may find the original to feel far more "slippery" thanks to the janky way Mario sometimes moves.
This is all assuming they actually fixed the suicide thing in DS, which maybe they didn't but it sounds like it'd be ABYSMAL on a D-pad so they probably fixed it. Things like rolling the stick to backflip are things you're used to as an advanced player, but that I never did as a more casual player.
The "suicidal" turning in Mario 64 is mildly annoying, but I learned how to avoid it. It only does that if Mario is still moving. If he's stationary, he's easy to turn. It would be preferable to have him turn with ease if he's only walking, but 3D analogue movement had to start somewhere.
The wall kick, however, is annoying even with practice.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 For some reason my brain calls it "Dimps timing" even though SM64 came first. Sonic Advance's Special Stages had something similar-- Listen for the beginning of the failure sound, then press the button. Gets it right very consistently.
Frogger 3D music for the outro is so freaking hype
Honestly I really don’t mind the d pad at all
I hate it
Now we just need someone, who gonna make an SM64 Hack, where you have everything from the DS game.
If I had a nickel for every handheld remake that had one less Analog Stick than the original and suffers as a result, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice, right?
For those of you wondering, the other one was Ape Escape P/On the Loose.
putting a remake of Ape Escape on the PSP is the most baffling decision next to giving zero support to the PSVita
64 DS was my first introduction to the game, so I'm completely fine with the controls, I've actually played through it a few times, it's one of my favourite games, I do have 3d all stars, so I'll have to try the original some time
I've always had problems with not just the controls, but the movement mechanics compared to the original. Here are the problems I encountered when playing SM64DS that detracted from my experience:
- Wall kicks no longer allow you to grab the ledge behind you
- Ledge grabbing from a long jump is much less consistent, sometimes impossible
- Can't do the third jump of a triple jump off of slippery slopes anymore
- Diving doesn't prevent fall damage anymore
- Much more difficult to consistently angle wall kicks precisely
- HOW DO I HOLD THE RUN BUTTON AND PRESS THE ATTACK AT THE SAME TIME??? I can't hold Y and press A without accidentally pressing X or B in the process, and the original game doesn't allow you to remap the controls, it's infuriating.
- Can't continuous jump from a side somersault anymore
- Can't wall kick from a long jump anymore
- Can't backwards somersault in succession
- Diving during a jump stunts your height, which prevents a huge diving triple jump when pressing dive right after the third jump in the original
- You can't swivel to change the direction of a side somersault
I actually played the game with the little stylus nub on the thumb strap. It worked pretty well.
Thanks for documenting these deeper changes that I couldn't find anyone posting about elsewhere. The dive change is a killer for me, really disappointed with that.
Dude, thank you so much for answering the title question right away.
I was seriously going to skip to the end of the video to see yhe consensus, but since you didnt bait your audience and gave us a straight answer right off the gate, i appreciated that so much i stayed to warch the full video. And im glad i did, great analysis!
A couple things I'd like to add that you missed are that you can't air kick into a double jump or long jump into a wallkick. That felt _incredibly_ restraining for me as triple jumps took so much longer to perform and they just took an entire tool away from my arsenal by removing the long jump wallkick. They very _least_ they could've done would've been to have it work like in the original game where you'd have to time it based on a 4 frame window. You also can't triple jump off of slippery slopes, which is _another_ tool they took away. Oh, and while probably not intentional mechanics, you can't jump kick up slopes or walljump off of a wall, hold back, and grab the ledge if the ledge is a bit too high for a triple jump. It's also really good for grabbing far away ledges by doing that after a long jump wallkick.
All of these tools make you feel like a god damn Kung Fu master after you get really good at using them and they took _ALL_ of that away.
Whenever I see someone Longjump Wallkick in the original "What Sorcery is this?" you can tell which version I played more. If I ever made a 64 Rom Hack I would change wall jumping to be just like it is in the DS Version which means you would bonk into any wall you long jumped into.
@@WaterKirby1994 Removing it would just unnecessarily remove an extremely useful tool, though. It'd quite heavily limit your movement options for no good reason.
I recently installed this mod with a button remap, only to discover that while the Circle Pad is emulating the Touch Screen, it's still emulating the D-pad at the same time. This might've effected your experience.
within ten seconds, I already have to respect the fact that there's no bullshitting, just getting right into it. 10/10
BRUH, your ending music is the options theme for Frogger on Playstation!!
Now that's some quality gaming.
😉
10:15, oddly enough I struggled with the same thing in _both_ versions where Mario tries rotating instead of snapping back immediately.
That's fair. I'm aware countless people struggle with turning in the original too. Though I feel the sensitivity in the DS version is far worse, especially with analog controls.
@@Mr.Welbig I am completely flabbergasted by the fact that both of you(?!) rotate the joystick to perform a sideways-jump!! Why would you NOT snap the stick the opposite way as a default, intuitive motion?? 😮
@@SwedenTheHedgehog Ikr snapping is the way to go
@@Mr.Welbig except the running toggle makes control overall easier. 64 mario is so slippery, ds mario is slower
Ive noticed this in the galaxy games too
I really like how the camera controls in 64 DS, even so that I would rate it the better game of the two, if the resolution was scaled up a little
I used the thumb pad included with the DS and while it takes a bit of learning, it works super well.
You answering at the beginning of this video gave me whiplash at first, but it was very welcomed
found the audio to be nice in this video despite the low microphone quality. hopefully skullex can get around to finishing star world so we can see what his take on analog Mario 64 DS is. If i remember right he stopped updating his analog mod because people kept stealing credit or something, though im not sure.
I 100% the game back on the OG DS. Never saw it as an issue. Haven’t replayed it for over a decade now though.
This channel deserves so much more credit than it's getting!
My man cutting straight to the point, literally answers the title question first sentence. Good on ya.
64 DS with an analog stick kinda just looks like it controls like Mario Galaxy but with a lot more moves, and honestly that is probably better for me as someone who grew up playing Galaxy 2 long before any other 3D Mario game.
Thanks for the immediate answer. You've definitely earned my subscription.
I think the difference between the controls in Mario 64 DS and the original can be boiled down to how they tried making them more consistent in the DS version.
The original had those things you mentioned were moves flow into each other more naturally and keep your momentum, and that's what makes chaining moves in 64 so fun and natural, while the DS version has more clear limits. it's like the difference between super Mario 64s controls and 3D world.
This can be seen especially with long jumping, wall jumping, and like you mentioned diving as well as other moves that were made consistent in an attempt to try and get rid of any yank that can be found with original game's inconsistent controls, wether or not this change is for the better is entirely up to preference.
I'd always wondered how that would work out. I remember a much younger me taping a broken controller's analog stick to a quarter and then taping that to the dpad, just in hopes it would work better (obviously I understand better now why that wouldn't just create analog input). I had a feeling this sort of effect might happen without mods to revert the movement physics, but it's sad to see that that's actually the case.
Great exploration of this though. I'm really glad someone went through and analyzed it all.
Is there no argument for the "extra content" of DS actually making the game worse, because it ruins the overall pacing? And sure you can play as Wario, but is he any fun?
Controls aside, I've always seen DS as unwelcome extra gravy on an already perfectly balanced game.
Hey, person who got 150 stars in SM64DS here! THANK you for explaining this! You explained it well! But I beat the game on my 3DS XL and had the same problems.
Question: Do you think the controls (or physics) could've been better in the DS version than how they turned out? You did mention a few things, but I'm not sure changing all of those would make the controls better since some may be made in favour of the D-Pad.
I'm in the SM64DS modding community. If I ever make a (full) hack, I'd be interested to know whether the gameplay could be made more comfortable. After seeing this video, I probably wouldn't do something like making the turns snappier like the D-Pad controls in 3D All-Stars, since that clearly isn't really ideal with this kind of level design.
I honestly wouldn't know since I'm not a programmer. We know how 64DS plays with analog support. We know how the original plays with a DPad. Surely a full custom hack has the potential of playing better than base 64DS since level design can be created to fully compliment how 64DS controls.
I feel the reason 64DS gets a bad rap because it's compared to the original, and has most of the original level design. The only mystery now is, could 64DS even be playable if it had the physics of the original? With a DPad it could suck because of the snappy turns. But with an analog stick? Could be interesting, and after seeing people put Mario64 into Sonic Generations I hope something like that could be possible in the future.
@@Mr.Welbig Ah okay. Yea, that would be interesting to see. I have some basic programming knowledge, but programming physics of characters is still very complicated. 😅
@@Mr.Welbig Hey, there's this port of the original SM64 for DSi, search for SM64 DSi. It's for DSi only because it uses that system's extra RAM. Maybe you could play that sometime and make a video about it. I don't expect it to play better than SM64DS, but since it's more faithful to the original physics, it could be interesting to have a look at it.
@@Mr.Welbig What does Mario 64 in Sonic Generations do then?
This is the kind of game design deep dive we need and why game preservation is important. Great analysis!
See... I don't get it, it plays perfectly fine, I've always played it with a dpad, hell if anything I played the original with a keyboard, never had a single problem with it not being analog.
I played on keyboard too. It's as he said. He's playing it like he played the n64 version. It's unfair to the game.
That game is my childhood. Glad to see this little project making me able to expirience this in some sort way or another, even if its not quite like the original SM64
Calling m64 ds controls bad is such a skill issue imo
you sneaking some Frogger PS1 music in the end there guarantees my sub and that I bet we would get along-your videos ROCK!
For me personally there is just one reason that lifts the DS version over the original: playable Yoshi. You don't get to control Yoshi in a 3D space very often (outside of spin-offs and having him be a mount for Mario), and having him here for it is just great. I can still recognize the original game as the superior version though because of the control issues in the DS game.
Good video showing the kinds of changes Nintendo made to accomodate for the D-pad controls though regardless!
I'll defend Mario 64 ds and the dpad controls! If you grew up with spyro and crash on the ps1, you're familiar with the feel of a character in a 3d space with 8 directions. Like you brought up, spyro and mario 64 ds use gradual turning and kind of steer the player almost like when you play gran turismo with a dpad. Plus, while the dpad is much less precise than a stick in general, there are a few things that are actually easier to pull off. Flipping and somersaulting in the opposite direction is as simple as jumping while pushing the opposite direction. There are also a few spots (like the red coin maze in rainbow road) where you can play kind of 2d and precisely navigate.
Besides the controls, i still prefer mario 64 ds because there are 30 more stars, more variety in gameplay (3 more characters with different physics), a map on the bottom screen that often shows where a star is while being vague enough to not give it away, and like a shit ton of minigames.
I would have never beaten 64 DS without Luigi's busted backflip spinjump.
Interesting thing about Mario's triple jump being significantly higher than in the N64 version: that's actually a buff introduced in Mario Sunshine. Sunshine increased the height of Mario's triple jump from Mario 64, and then that buff was kept for both 64 DS and Mario Galaxy (and Galaxy 2 of course), so in Mario Galaxy he also has the really high triple jump. But then in Odyssey they lowered Mario's triple jump again back to roughly what it was in OG Mario 64, actually I think it might be lower, I think Odyssey might have the lowest triple jump of any of the 3D Mario games. However, I believe Yoshi's triple jump height in DS is roughly the same as Mario's in the N64 version actually, I could be wrong but it seemed to me like overall Yoshi scales more accurately to N64 Mario than Mario does which is interesting, Mario in DS not only jumps higher on some jumps but I think also runs faster than on N64 (though his run cycle animation is much slower so it might not always feel like it).
I noticed the nerfed triple jump in Odyssey too. I would suspect the buff was added in Sunshine to accommodate the larger levels, and kept in Galaxy for the more restricted controls. Then in Odyssey it was probably nerfed to encourage Captures and more skilled play. So 64DS is kinda an odd ball for having the buff without any game design around it. Honestly wouldn't be much of a problem if it weren't for how far Mario & co can strafe in mid air when they jump.
@@Mr.Welbig Yeah, it is pretty odd. I guess maybe they kept it to make it more distinct from Yoshi's triple jump or something? Idk.
The maps in sm64ds are smaller than sm64 so there's a chance the character isn't actually running faster than n64
I wanna point out the game is playable with a 3DS circle pad. A lot of DS games support the circle pad even though they were released years prior. Made this game and the kingdom hearts experience a lot less frustrating.
I'm pretty sure SM64DS was the entire reason the original DS came with that strap with the nub on it. I actually played it with that, and I remember enjoying it, but I also remember the touchscreen control being a pain in the ass.
My favorite part about SM64DS is having to hold down Y for 99% of the entire fucking game
Your channel is amazing, keep it up and I could see you going far on RUclips
For the PC port, we already have works of Luigi and Wario being playable already, and I'm sure Yoshi is either bound to be or already made playable as well.
If there's a mod pack that'll add the levels and all the other kinds of content from DS into the PC port, then that would make the PC port feel like the truest, definitive, and complete package of Super Mario 64 ever!
I first played SM64DS for a little while, but then I played emulated SM64 with a KEYBOARD. I did play that for a longer time, but even then, that felt waaaay better than SM64DS
The PC decomp with DS visuals would slap so hard. The DS version is just so much more vibrant
ngl, the immediate answer to the title on screen the moment the preview started to play drew me in.
Ndsfowarder (a homebrew app for 3ds) allows circle pad movement as well as turning the the camera with L + Circle Pad. This fixes the 2 main problems with mario 64 ds; Movement and Camera.
Plus, this can be run natively on the 3ds, without an emulator and on-the-go!
I never thought this would be a problem considering i played this with a 3ds! Very good video
Thanks for the reasonable approach to this topic, makes total sense.
You deserve more subs man! You put a lot of effort on this, gave you a like and sub.
As a kid I didn't mind the dpad, but I can see why it's inferior.