Back in the 60-70 a company could have all the locks in a store with the same bitting with rings in different locations. The back door would have no rings so all personal could open the door, stock room ring in slot 1, front door ring in location 2 other area in location 3 so the managers key with all the cuts could open all but they would give keys with some of the cuts for your job. It was so one key with all cuts can open all doors but others could not.
In 1992 I worked in an office building in Melbourne, we had these keys with the cut outs, for our offices, they would open main doors, some internal doors, and your own office, but no one else's. Another workmate could have the same key, but it opened his office and not mine. We never put any thought into it, but now this makes sense. Each office key could have it's own key, and still the same key to access common areas, cheers for that Bill!
@@hardcodedsoftware4212 In theory we could have, but honestly, no one I worked with really cared that much, we were more concerned with working than things like that, and I know the managers and cleaners had keys that opened all doors.
@@StumpyMason_ I have a feeling you're describing typical master keying, not necessarily warded keys. i've not seen warded keying like this in Aus, but if you have photos I'd be interested
Stumpy Mason - that makes a lot of sense! I’m not a locksmith, but I was involved with the key setup of a large building project and I really became concerned when no less than five different keys could open the same door. If a groove-on-the-bottom design had been employed there could have been much more simplicity, and security.
I used to put those on the front door of an office building. I would cut the ring so if the key didn't have the ward cut it would only turn one direction. This way I could give the tennants a non warded key and they could only turn one direction to open the AdamsRite 4510. The warded key would be given to management and would turn both ways to put the lock in "day mode" to keep it unlocked during the day.
We had about 30 of these on our shelf years ago in Schlage F keyway, sitting as dead stock. Don't recall the job but early 70's for sure. Pretty sharp for access control, but where would you have keys made other than Schlage. Some locksmiths would cut the groove by hand, more time consuming. Was once pretty effective back in it's day.
Everyone retires, if they plan it or not, but few will have worked as hard as you have. Enjoy every minute of it, and know you have the thanks of so many fans for all you have done.
The old Medical Center at UCLA used that warded system with type E keys. I believe they wanted more combinations for rooms that were not that important. I had a area master key that I made a additional notch tor a total of 4 that provided access to the closet at the end of the hall. Thanks for showing me what's inside, always wondered.
We used these where I used to work. I think I saw my first one in the late 70s. We were still installing them in 2018 when I left. We got a lot of complaints about broken locks and keys. Key and access control was an uphill battle. Especially when a locksmith in a neighboring town would make keys for the right price.
Yeah I still remember punching out a key then having to take it over to the safety deposit/mailbox key cutter and clamping in a schlage blank with all the spaced cuts on the bottom. To answer someone's question, yes it weakens the key a bit I suppose. Truthfully though I still carry one on my keyring in my pocket with 2 cuts. Barely visible bowing. BTW I cut that key when I was 19. I'm fifty now.
That would be Bill's version of Black Mirror, a time travelling subscriber going back in time, re-pinning or adapting historical locks as challenge locks and making sure Bill comes across them.
I had a key that had several cuts on the bottom like this. I never realized why until now. The lock was on the front door of a firehouse. Predates my membership back in 1982.
Yes, i have seen it before in an office setting. Everyone had a key to the main door but each office (3 in this case) had a different setting for the bottom notches. You could have up to 16 different bottom notch combinations.
@@Tukwilapilot This is probably one of the major reasons its no longer used. The same thing this system did, can be easily accomplished using the actual pins and is more secure since there's no master key unless one is designed in (e.g. front door lock has stacks 1-4 pinned, but 5 and 6 are left empty so they accept any cut, while office locks have all 6 pinned, 1-4 match the front door, but 5 and 6 are pinned and cut uniquely for each office).
I actually recognize it (I think....)! I found out about those accidentally when I ordered the wrong key blank by mistake! The key is a Schlage 35-102 series and has cuts on the bottom for all the warding positions usually. I believe they were for hotels for emergency keys for room access. I think one of the models may be an L9457, but it’s been a while since I dug on it.
Hotel function! Here's a post with a nearly identical lock (it's got a half-ward though)! www.reddit.com/r/Locksmith/comments/6pp05t/remember_those_schlage_hotel_function_keys/
I think I remember him complaining that every challenge lock had traps in it even after saying to stop. I don't blame him. Wasting all that time to pick the lock that's almost impossible because of traps.
Great idea for key control. You could have up to 6 to the 5th power keys of the same biting. It was probably the weakening of the key that doomed it. My house is on a high-cut Schlage master system and if I want to give a pass key to someone and guarantee it can't be duplicated is I grind .025 to .035 off the bottom of the key. It doesn't affect the key's strength or function, but makes it impossible to duplicate correctly on most 'drug-store' key machines.
It should also be possible to use more than one slot on a key. If they are made out of correct metals, then they should be durable. Take, for instance, Bowley lock keys, which are forked backwards in one, or even two, directions. They are not made from low-grade Brass, and are very robust.
I have seen this, before-ONE time. It was a KIK cylinder in a Schlage padlock. The cut in the key is for it to pass a ward. The cylinder plug-as seen-has six wards available to be used on it. The wards are partial rings, so cannot be seen through the keyway. I saw this in 1973! Edit: I have played with/used/installed/worked on locks, intermittently, since age six. I am sixty-seven, now.
I've got a couple customers who still use them. In both cases, to control access. Employees can let themselves out but not back in. Inside cylinder has no control ring, outside does. Owners and managers can open up shop, no other employees.
Does the fire code there have anything in it regarding double cylinder locks? Sounds like if a fire breaks out and the employee can’t use their key, then the employee might have to break out ...
4 года назад
8:41 - And the reason i'm trying to do this and boring you... You're not boring us, 's epic, mate
it actually doesnt retain the key, its meant to prevent someone with a normal schlage key with the same pinout to work in it, youd have to grind a notch in a normal key for it to turn
I literally claped the second you got it opened...I exactly! had that same lock for years and constantly re pind it and loved picking it...well done!. Ok...I didn't have this model...
The cut in the bottom of the key would prevent bumping attacks too. Even if you get it open with the correct profile bump key it won’t turn fully and you’d have no idea why if you hadn’t ever seen one.
I think that ring spring washer thingamajig is actually some kind of anti-bump feature, when you think about it, even if you manage to bump that lock (which is highly unlikely to happen) you wouldn't be able to turn the cylinder... that lock probably came with all standard pins so they added this anti bump feature cuz obviously this crazy biding was added later
The gin bottle spools probably didn't give you as much trouble as they should of because the plug didn't have matching counter milling like they would in an ASSA.
I’ve seen something like this in Hotel use cylinders in Monterey California from many many years ago. Managers would use this key to unlock the lockout deadbolt on room doors and to lockout guests while room was being serviced.
That cylinder was probably used with a machine of some sort. The key without the grove could access one position, and the other could access all positions. Imagine a cash drop box where normal employees get the non-cut key and can open a deposit slot and the one with the cut can open the collection door. This would keep vacuum cleaner attacks from being trivial.
Looks like a pretty good countermeasure against key copying attacks. You can decode from a picture or bitting impression and the copy would still fail unless the notch was also accounted for or even seen. And why would you think it was relevant on the fly?
BB What you have there is called a Schlage ward ring cyl. the ward rings were used to expand the master key system or to help extend the life of it by multiplying the # of changes in the system. have not see one since I worked for University of CA. in the mid 80s, we needed to rekey a master key system w/ 900+ changes due to a lost grand master key. Now this is speculation on my part...bits and pieces I heard from other Locksmiths over the years. I think Schlage stopped making this due to a patent infringement suit. maybe by Corbin/Russwin / Emhart Et al. However Schlage was still allowed to make service parts for anyone that owned systems like the Universities etc, that's how we were able to get parts to do the rekey, as far as key blanks we had to figure out an easy way to make the cut on the bottom of the blade...no not w/ a file...I had to make 6000 keys ! As far a reassembly goes you'll get the hang of it after about a dozen cyls. holding the cyl housing in 1 hand w/ your index finger free and w/ the back of the follower held against the edge of the work bench vise, start the cyl plug into the housing and then hold w/ index finger. your other hand is now free to use a tweezers or snap ring tool to position the ward rings w/ the corresponding slots as you work the cyl. in
I am 40 now.. but when i was a kid my dad had a bunch of keys and i liked checking them out... anyhoo our apartment building key had one of those cuts in it.. so i assume that the apartment complex had all of those deadbolts in them...
Thanks very much for posting your reasons for no more challenge locks. I did suspect it was all the 'copycat' stuff, but had not considered the shipping costs. BTW, did you ever figure out how you managed to get this one picked so 'easily'? Thanks for all you do, we really appreciate it.
Some of them were well-made, but most were useless as real locks. They were breaking expensive picks. But the real crippler was that most challenge lock makers wanted their locks back, so the return postage costs were breaking Bill's bank account. US postage to other countries can be very expensive, as you can see when buying through Ebay from the USA.
The core with all those special features was out of focus for 75% of the time, a bit of a pity, Bill 😉 Nice video! I love devouring your little nuggets of locksmithing knowledge 👍😄
I've read all 242 posts and no one answers if this was a commercially made plug & lock assy, or just an old locksmiths machinist trick? Does anyone know? Lots have commented about seeing this, but seems to be a bit of a mystery where it originated from. Very cool though and somewhat interesting and amusing lock with those ASSA "gin bottle" drivers and Side Bar pins from the ASSA Twin 6000 series -- guess someone had lots of spare ASSA parts.
Thats interesting key control if you are good about hiding keys. In that you can have the same bitting but use the rings to make unique keys for certain doors (master key would have several cuts on the backside/spine
Picking locks for a few weeks... Ha!!! Let’s face it, you are good. And I love the challenge locks.. it shows how good you are and the LPL, how great he is!!! And how bad Master Lock is!!!
Morning Bill! Happy Friday! Those ASSA gin bottle spools (Christmas tree pins) are not nearly as difficult to pick without the corresponding countermilling in the plug. I have also never seen that key control feature, that is really cool. Great job and great video!
Sparrows had Scrooge Pins for sale last Christmas. The set had Christmas tree lock pins among other lock pins. I bought 4 sets of the pins before they stopped selling them. Perhaps Sparrows could make them again. And no, I will not part with the pins I bought.
@Bosnianbill. Not only are you a great lockpicker, but you're a psychic and have excellent hearing. I was thinking "Bill, you're using the wrong size screwdriver". But I'm sure you don't admit these abilities (other than lockpicking) to your wife. Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
I don't think those wards are here to do key retention, because once your correct key is inserted, it's naturally retained by the key pins. However, this simplifies the creation of a "small" grand grand master key scheme: all your master keys get the same bitting, and you use the back bits to define the master groups. Grand master keys have multiple back bits, and the grand grand master key has all back bits.
That’s too bad that you don’t do challenge locks anymore; I really liked the videos. I can understand though how some had unfair trap pins and got beyond a strict challenge. The spirit of a challenge lock should be a tough but achievable challenge not a I’m just going to build something that can’t be opened outside of some specific condition.
I used to maintain 150 apartments, my master keys had cuts all the way down the spine. 4 keys, 4 buildings, 78 apartments at one complex. Edit: I was confusing the two complexes I maintained. It was a long time ago
@@junkman8742 individual apartments were keyed differently w/ different slot positions. My masters were master pinned, with master slots for all doors. The entry doors didn't need the control slot, just apartment doors. Each Tenant had a key that worked the entry door for their section only. Up and over stairwells with a court yard in the middle. 8 apts per section. Each building had 4 sections. There were 4 buildings at this complex. The other complex had 1, 8 unit and 2, 16 unit buildings.
I know you mentioned that these are all standard pins, but are the key pins correct? In my kit, the standard key pins are all green, and I think some of these are red. Strange pinning on the top. Very cool the way the cut on the bottom interacts with the ring.
Hey Bill have you done any videos on locks with "sawtooth" style keys? I keep seeing this Medeco with crazy sawtooth bitting on ebay and would love to see how to pick something like that!
I bet it is an easy way of doing a master key and lower level keys. Master has all the grooves, normal key will just have one or 2 depending on the security clearance. you don't have to mess with pins, just rings. pretty cool. Of course if someone figured out what was going on, they could just put every groove and have a master key.
Search for an ASSA 6000. I just obtained one with a key so I can make it a progressive training lock to learn it. Tough pins, counter milling and a side bar with 5 of those "foot" pins. Welcome to the Madhouse!
Alternating Christmas tree driver pins, and the key pins are alternating Christmas colors of red, green . . . now if you tell me the lock came from the North Pole I will know Santa is up to his old tricks!
Wouldn't this ring also prevent from tensioning from second side? Or is there enough play in the lock that tensioning it from the top would give impression that none pin binds ?
Seems like those rings wouldn't actually make picking much harder or harder at all. So do you think it's a key control feature? It seems like it would be a really poor security feature.
![[1177] Australian High Security: BiLock Version 2 Picked and Gutted](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/f5uk6C1iDkQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Back in the 60-70 a company could have all the locks in a store with the same bitting with rings in different locations. The back door would have no rings so all personal could open the door, stock room ring in slot 1, front door ring in location 2 other area in location 3 so the managers key with all the cuts could open all but they would give keys with some of the cuts for your job. It was so one key with all cuts can open all doors but others could not.
This needs more attention. Very well explained. Thank you
That sounds like it would be very obvious how to cut your key into a master key.
Christopher Creutzig Ya, just grind most of the lower portion of the key off and the key will work no matter what combination of rings.
In some ways, that's bizarre. Relatively easy for an expert criminal to pick, but proof against specific key holders?
@@ccreutzig yeah, just cut the whole bottom part of the warding off
In 1992 I worked in an office building in Melbourne, we had these keys with the cut outs, for our offices, they would open main doors, some internal doors, and your own office, but no one else's. Another workmate could have the same key, but it opened his office and not mine. We never put any thought into it, but now this makes sense. Each office key could have it's own key, and still the same key to access common areas, cheers for that Bill!
What's stopping someone from filing more grooves into their key? Instant key escalation
@@hardcodedsoftware4212 In theory we could have, but honestly, no one I worked with really cared that much, we were more concerned with working than things like that, and I know the managers and cleaners had keys that opened all doors.
@@StumpyMason_ I have a feeling you're describing typical master keying, not necessarily warded keys. i've not seen warded keying like this in Aus, but if you have photos I'd be interested
Stumpy Mason - that makes a lot of sense! I’m not a locksmith, but I was involved with the key setup of a large building project and I really became concerned when no less than five different keys could open the same door. If a groove-on-the-bottom design had been employed there could have been much more simplicity, and security.
"That is one ugly pin."
"That's a Christmas tree pin. Why wasn't this harder?"
Love the stream of consciousness live commentary.
I used to put those on the front door of an office building. I would cut the ring so if the key didn't have the ward cut it would only turn one direction. This way I could give the tennants a non warded key and they could only turn one direction to open the AdamsRite 4510. The warded key would be given to management and would turn both ways to put the lock in "day mode" to keep it unlocked during the day.
"Why wasn't this harder?" - Well, Bill, because you are just that good, that's why.
Key control and a cheap way of mastering without changing bitting
Such a simple yet effective design. Seems like it combats impression attempts. You'd never know that ring was in there unless you owned the lock.
We had about 30 of these on our shelf years ago in Schlage F keyway, sitting as dead stock. Don't recall the job but early 70's for sure. Pretty sharp for access control, but where would you have keys made other than Schlage. Some locksmiths would cut the groove by hand, more time consuming. Was once pretty effective back in it's day.
Everyone retires, if they plan it or not, but few will have worked as hard as you have. Enjoy every minute of it, and know you have the thanks of so many fans for all you have done.
The old Medical Center at UCLA used that warded system with type E keys. I believe they wanted more combinations for rooms that were not that important. I had a area master key that I made a additional notch tor a total of 4 that provided access to the closet at the end of the hall. Thanks for showing me what's inside, always wondered.
It is an access control system:
All keys open the front door, but after that they can open only one specific room .
This is the correct reason
Like master keying, except it doesn’t make the lock easier to pick? Sounds like a plan.
We used these where I used to work. I think I saw my first one in the late 70s. We were still installing them in 2018 when I left. We got a lot of complaints about broken locks and keys. Key and access control was an uphill battle. Especially when a locksmith in a neighboring town would make keys for the right price.
Yeah I still remember punching out a key then having to take it over to the safety deposit/mailbox key cutter and clamping in a schlage blank with all the spaced cuts on the bottom.
To answer someone's question, yes it weakens the key a bit I suppose. Truthfully though I still carry one on my keyring in my pocket with 2 cuts. Barely visible bowing. BTW I cut that key when I was 19. I'm fifty now.
As a long time viewer i laughed my ass of at "i've only been picking locks for a few weeks now"
I heard that abd believed it fir a few seconds... then saw video 1774 or whatever number... 🤔
It was 4 digits.
That would be Bill's version of Black Mirror, a time travelling subscriber going back in time, re-pinning or adapting historical locks as challenge locks and making sure Bill comes across them.
I LOVE the "Why wasn't this harder?" It wasn't harder, because you are a professional! (Or possibly got a "lucky" pick) My opinion says pro!!!
I had a key that had several cuts on the bottom like this. I never realized why until now. The lock was on the front door of a firehouse. Predates my membership back in 1982.
Hey Bill, thanks for all your videos. Stay safe.
20 years as a locksmith and I have never seen that sort of setup. BUT, I kinda like it.
Yes, i have seen it before in an office setting. Everyone had a key to the main door but each office (3 in this case) had a different setting for the bottom notches. You could have up to 16 different bottom notch combinations.
Makes sense, but what keeps someone from getting a copy and cutting all 5 grooves into the copy, giving access to all offices?
@@Tukwilapilot the key falls apart.
@@Tukwilapilot This is probably one of the major reasons its no longer used. The same thing this system did, can be easily accomplished using the actual pins and is more secure since there's no master key unless one is designed in (e.g. front door lock has stacks 1-4 pinned, but 5 and 6 are left empty so they accept any cut, while office locks have all 6 pinned, 1-4 match the front door, but 5 and 6 are pinned and cut uniquely for each office).
I actually recognize it (I think....)! I found out about those accidentally when I ordered the wrong key blank by mistake! The key is a Schlage 35-102 series and has cuts on the bottom for all the warding positions usually. I believe they were for hotels for emergency keys for room access. I think one of the models may be an L9457, but it’s been a while since I dug on it.
Hotel function! Here's a post with a nearly identical lock (it's got a half-ward though)!
www.reddit.com/r/Locksmith/comments/6pp05t/remember_those_schlage_hotel_function_keys/
Makes sense the "L" being the master keyway for C-K.
Bill "Why was I able to pick this lock?"
Bill's subs "Because you're pretty good at picking locks."
Give your self a slap for lack of self confidence.
I didn't realize that about the challenge locks. That's too bad, I really enjoyed the pirate chest videos. I couldn't stop watching.
Challenge locks have been tampered with. The treasure chest was a collection of different original locks presented a a gift in the form of a challenge
anyone got a link to the video/post where he says why he doesn't post videos of them anymore?
@@Rx7man I wonder why as well
Oh.. found his answer in comments
I think I remember him complaining that every challenge lock had traps in it even after saying to stop. I don't blame him. Wasting all that time to pick the lock that's almost impossible because of traps.
Great idea for key control. You could have up to 6 to the 5th power keys of the same biting. It was probably the weakening of the key that doomed it. My house is on a high-cut Schlage master system and if I want to give a pass key to someone and guarantee it can't be duplicated is I grind .025 to .035 off the bottom of the key. It doesn't affect the key's strength or function, but makes it impossible to duplicate correctly on most 'drug-store' key machines.
It should also be possible to use more than one slot on a key. If they are made out of correct metals, then they should be durable. Take, for instance, Bowley lock keys, which are forked backwards in one, or even two, directions. They are not made from low-grade Brass, and are very robust.
I have seen this, before-ONE time. It was a KIK cylinder in a Schlage padlock. The cut in the key is for it to pass a ward. The cylinder plug-as seen-has six wards available to be used on it. The wards are partial rings, so cannot be seen through the keyway. I saw this in 1973!
Edit: I have played with/used/installed/worked on locks, intermittently, since age six. I am sixty-seven, now.
You got into it so easily because those key pins are sodamn long lol! It was basically sitting at the shearline 😂
I've got a couple customers who still use them. In both cases, to control access. Employees can let themselves out but not back in. Inside cylinder has no control ring, outside does. Owners and managers can open up shop, no other employees.
Does the fire code there have anything in it regarding double cylinder locks? Sounds like if a fire breaks out and the employee can’t use their key, then the employee might have to break out ...
8:41 - And the reason i'm trying to do this and boring you...
You're not boring us, 's epic, mate
Thank you. And thank you for using the right screwdriver ;)
This is the first video that I've ever seen a re-pinned lock. Cheers Bill !👍
it actually doesnt retain the key, its meant to prevent someone with a normal schlage key with the same pinout to work in it, youd have to grind a notch in a normal key for it to turn
I literally claped the second you got it opened...I exactly! had that same lock for years and constantly re pind it and loved picking it...well done!. Ok...I didn't have this model...
Why no more challenge locks? Guess I missed the memo.
Yeah... Why not?
Yea I missed it too, looked up facebook and twitter and didn't not find anything.
Same here
Yeah, I don't do the twitter thing. I haven't the first foggiest why...
This is news to me.. no idea why he stopped doing challenge locks.
The cut in the bottom of the key would prevent bumping attacks too. Even if you get it open with the correct profile bump key it won’t turn fully and you’d have no idea why if you hadn’t ever seen one.
great video, thanks Bill
A wonderful video, and an interesting trip to see what the groove was all about. Thank you for sharing this video!
Too cool! The lock and first time listening with headphones! Bill, you're in my head! 😁
Very interesting! Never seen that before either, thanks for sharing!
Good review. Now I’m keeping my eye out for this
You're just too good!
I think that ring spring washer thingamajig is actually some kind of anti-bump feature, when you think about it, even if you manage to bump that lock (which is highly unlikely to happen) you wouldn't be able to turn the cylinder... that lock probably came with all standard pins so they added this anti bump feature cuz obviously this crazy biding was added later
Thanks for the video, this was particularly interesting for my curious mind.
The gin bottle spools probably didn't give you as much trouble as they should of because the plug didn't have matching counter milling like they would in an ASSA.
I’ve seen something like this in Hotel use cylinders in Monterey California from many many years ago. Managers would use this key to unlock the lockout deadbolt on room doors and to lockout guests while room was being serviced.
I've been to Monterey, CA -- which Hotel was that?
Always entertaining and always educational.
That cylinder was probably used with a machine of some sort. The key without the grove could access one position, and the other could access all positions. Imagine a cash drop box where normal employees get the non-cut key and can open a deposit slot and the one with the cut can open the collection door. This would keep vacuum cleaner attacks from being trivial.
Looks like a pretty good countermeasure against key copying attacks. You can decode from a picture or bitting impression and the copy would still fail unless the notch was also accounted for or even seen. And why would you think it was relevant on the fly?
BB
What you have there is called a Schlage ward ring cyl. the ward rings were used to expand the master key system or to help extend the life of it by multiplying the # of changes in the system. have not see one since I worked for University of CA.
in the mid 80s, we needed to rekey a master key system w/ 900+ changes due to a lost grand master key.
Now this is speculation on my part...bits and pieces I heard from other Locksmiths over the years. I think Schlage stopped making this due to a patent infringement suit. maybe by Corbin/Russwin / Emhart Et al.
However Schlage was still allowed to make service parts for anyone that owned systems like the Universities etc, that's how we were able to get parts to do the rekey, as far as key blanks we had to figure out an easy way to make the cut on the bottom of the blade...no not w/ a file...I had to make 6000 keys !
As far a reassembly goes you'll get the hang of it after about a dozen cyls. holding the cyl housing in 1 hand w/ your index finger free and w/ the back of the follower held against the edge of the work bench vise, start the cyl plug into the housing and then hold w/ index finger. your other hand is now free to use a tweezers or snap ring tool to position the ward rings w/ the corresponding slots as you work the cyl. in
I remember the cut on a key back in the 80's for the main door to the business I worked in don't remember anything else.
Just kidding: It must have been a thankless business!😉
It's a warded lock increases more levels of keying by varying witch groove is used.
I'm suprised he's never seen warded schlage before. I've still got some in use in my padlocks from 30 years ago. Hmmm
Sorry that's not for key retention. Only open cause you picked it
Hey Bill, love your content!
I am 40 now.. but when i was a kid my dad had a bunch of keys and i liked checking them out... anyhoo our apartment building key had one of those cuts in it.. so i assume that the apartment complex had all of those deadbolts in them...
The key will be weakened slightly, but by no more than normal bitting, so it should last for many years, unless it is abused.
The rings were actually an old form of master keying.
Thanks very much for posting your reasons for no more challenge locks. I did suspect it was all the 'copycat' stuff, but had not considered the shipping costs. BTW, did you ever figure out how you managed to get this one picked so 'easily'?
Thanks for all you do, we really appreciate it.
Why doesn't bosnianbill do challenge locks anymore? I can't find the answer. Does anyone have a link?
Some of them were well-made, but most were useless as real locks. They were breaking expensive picks. But the real crippler was that most challenge lock makers wanted their locks back, so the return postage costs were breaking Bill's bank account. US postage to other countries can be very expensive, as you can see when buying through Ebay from the USA.
The core with all those special features was out of focus for 75% of the time, a bit of a pity, Bill 😉 Nice video! I love devouring your little nuggets of locksmithing knowledge 👍😄
I've read all 242 posts and no one answers if this was a commercially made plug & lock assy, or just an old locksmiths machinist trick? Does anyone know? Lots have commented about seeing this, but seems to be a bit of a mystery where it originated from. Very cool though and somewhat interesting and amusing lock with those ASSA "gin bottle" drivers and Side Bar pins from the ASSA Twin 6000 series -- guess someone had lots of spare ASSA parts.
Pretty cool way to implement key control
Thats interesting key control if you are good about hiding keys. In that you can have the same bitting but use the rings to make unique keys for certain doors (master key would have several cuts on the backside/spine
Picking locks for a few weeks... Ha!!! Let’s face it, you are good. And I love the challenge locks.. it shows how good you are and the LPL, how great he is!!! And how bad Master Lock is!!!
Oh, the fancy washer means a cheap wal-mart key copier machine can't reproduce the key, it takes a locksmith that knows the trick to make a copy.
3:30
Sorry for thinking too loudly.
That glare coming in through the window and reflecting on the ruler is killer. Maybe pull the window shade down next time?
Morning Bill! Happy Friday! Those ASSA gin bottle spools (Christmas tree pins) are not nearly as difficult to pick without the corresponding countermilling in the plug. I have also never seen that key control feature, that is really cool. Great job and great video!
I just commented nearly the same, guess I should have looked if someone had already answered this!
Sparrows had Scrooge Pins for sale last Christmas. The set had Christmas tree lock pins among other lock pins.
I bought 4 sets of the pins before they stopped selling them. Perhaps Sparrows could make them again.
And no, I will not part with the pins I bought.
Impressioning could be hell with this.
So it's basically a hybrid warded/pin tumbler lock?
You're using the wrong screwdriver, and it's causing me pain...oh, you've switched to the right one, all good now
@Bosnianbill. Not only are you a great lockpicker, but you're a psychic and have excellent hearing. I was thinking "Bill, you're using the wrong size screwdriver".
But I'm sure you don't admit these abilities (other than lockpicking) to your wife.
Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
I don't think those wards are here to do key retention, because once your correct key is inserted, it's naturally retained by the key pins.
However, this simplifies the creation of a "small" grand grand master key scheme: all your master keys get the same bitting, and you use the back bits to define the master groups. Grand master keys have multiple back bits, and the grand grand master key has all back bits.
That’s too bad that you don’t do challenge locks anymore; I really liked the videos. I can understand though how some had unfair trap pins and got beyond a strict challenge. The spirit of a challenge lock should be a tough but achievable challenge not a I’m just going to build something that can’t be opened outside of some specific condition.
I used to maintain 150 apartments, my master keys had cuts all the way down the spine. 4 keys, 4 buildings, 78 apartments at one complex.
Edit: I was confusing the two complexes I maintained. It was a long time ago
I was just thinking this is a very insecure way of master keying because with a file a tenant can cut his own master in no time
@@junkman8742 I think you are grossly overestimating the average persons ability to think that outside the box and figure out how this system works.
@@junkman8742 individual apartments were keyed differently w/ different slot positions. My masters were master pinned, with master slots for all doors. The entry doors didn't need the control slot, just apartment doors. Each Tenant had a key that worked the entry door for their section only. Up and over stairwells with a court yard in the middle. 8 apts per section. Each building had 4 sections. There were 4 buildings at this complex. The other complex had 1, 8 unit and 2, 16 unit buildings.
Why no more challenge locks? I never heard any explanation.
I can't find the video, why doesn't Bill do challenge locks anymore?
I know you mentioned that these are all standard pins, but are the key pins correct? In my kit, the standard key pins are all green, and I think some of these are red. Strange pinning on the top. Very cool the way the cut on the bottom interacts with the ring.
Would the brass clip also prevent bump locks without the groove cut into it from turning the unlocked lock?
Reminds me of the Corbin-Emhart locking pin key.
THAT is interesting!!! Not, as far as I know, currently part of Schlage's product line... I'm gonna have to look into those...
Hey Bill have you done any videos on locks with "sawtooth" style keys? I keep seeing this Medeco with crazy sawtooth bitting on ebay and would love to see how to pick something like that!
I bet it is an easy way of doing a master key and lower level keys. Master has all the grooves, normal key will just have one or 2 depending on the security clearance. you don't have to mess with pins, just rings. pretty cool. Of course if someone figured out what was going on, they could just put every groove and have a master key.
What are the reasons he doesn’t do challenge locks anymore? I must’ve missed those videos where he explained it
Looks like a key control measure
Probably have a hard time trying to use a 'bump' key since it won't normally have that cut on the bottom?
only been picking for a couple of weeks... lol
so this is bosnian bill, LPL always mentions...
The ring doesn't appear to have anything to do with key retention since the pins will keep the key retained by themselves.
TALENT Prevails! : }
so since this was factory, shouldn't there be a schlage blank number (or several) with the requisite notches?
I would like to see that ASSA lock those pins came from. Is there an old video?
Search for an ASSA 6000. I just obtained one with a key so I can make it a progressive training lock to learn it. Tough pins, counter milling and a side bar with 5 of those "foot" pins. Welcome to the Madhouse!
i have a schlage key with a cut on the bottom, never noticed it until i had it copied.
RIP challenge locks. You are sadly missed :(
Alternating Christmas tree driver pins, and the key pins are alternating Christmas colors of red, green . . . now if you tell me the lock came from the North Pole I will know Santa is up to his old tricks!
So I'm guessing it's to help with bump keys?
The low bitting (long keypins) made it easy.
Good morning ☀️
Would that also prevent bumping??
The Bob Ross of lock picking.
Wouldn't this ring also prevent from tensioning from second side? Or is there enough play in the lock that tensioning it from the top would give impression that none pin binds ?
Bump key protection?
Seems like those rings wouldn't actually make picking much harder or harder at all. So do you think it's a key control feature? It seems like it would be a really poor security feature.
i still miss the challenge locks
Great video
Appreciated
Where do I get a vice like that?