@@franalytics5995 Goes to show who is living rent free is who's head. I just said it would be funny to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans. He doesn't live my head, because I don't even consider him a rival to Messi
@@gouravghosh588 the comment was about Messi's obvious greatness and brilliance, and how he's the clear goat and then u say i can't wait to see the meltdown of penaldo fans, u don't need to disrespect Ronaldo and act like a toxic Twitter npc, we weren't even talking about ronaldo or his fans, get Ronaldo outta ur head boi
@Charlie Green if I’m not mistaken yes. Messi is 2nd. He created one less chance than griezman. It’s still great tho. Having the 2nd most created chance in World cup
I know you're only using the venacular, but can we show the great man the respect he deserves by actually spelling out the word 'The Greatest'? It's the least we can do for all the magnificent things he has shown us.
To me what makes Messi so much better than anyone else is that, if he had not scored a single goal in his entire career but kept everything else as it is now, we'd still be talking about him as the best playmaker and one of the best players in history But he scored goals, 800 of them, he's just so good at every single attacking aspect of the game that we kind of "forget" that he's also the best finisher in modern football history, so much so that Ronaldo unfairly got that title, Messi is untouchable
About 10 years ago Barcelona thrashed Real Madrid by scoring 5 goals. Messi didn’t score a single goal in that match but he was still MOTM, that’s the kind of impact he has even when not scoring.
@@nazmulbhuiyan1982 i have this game in my movie folder on my hard disc. the folder is labeled ( and that is a copied quote from the folder): "Barca vs Kacknoobs 29 11 2010" xD kacknoobs means shitnoobs ^^ i have about 30 games of barcelona on that hard disc. some obvious like the arsenal game, some probably only i remember, because messi didnt score ( lol) but still did things you cant talk about. the latter ones are my gems.
@@Ar021 even then Messi’s goal per game ratio is better, he’s got more golden boots, record for most goals in a year and season, more goals in finals and more goals from the bench.
@@ElDragow Go and check the stats then. Messi is above Ronaldo on almost every metric, except for headers. He has the better dribbling, passing and even edges him on goal scoring. Next to that he has a ton more assists than him, and the superior vision. Although Ronaldo is definitely one of the best players to ever grace the pitch, Messi still edges him. I also have never seen Ronaldo dribbling almost whole teams on a constant basis, as if he was still in school. The amount of solo goals Messi made is insane. I really do not understand why this is even a debate, because for me the eye test already shows who the better one is.
If Messi was only one of the greatest dribblers of all time, then it's a debate over whether he is indeed the greatest of all time. The issue is... he will also go down as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, with 91 goals in ONE YEAR IS ABSURD... it is absolutely ridiculous his proficiency at scoring. But then you add the fact that he's not simply those two things... he will go down as one of the GREATEST direct creators, how many times have you seen Messi slip in players 1 on 1 with defence-splitting balls. Then add on the passing - the weight of pass is crazy, he can hit switches like nothing. THEN ADD ON TO THE FACT, HE'S AN ELITE ELITE PLAYMAKER... how many times is this guy going to drop deep and start plays, create combinations and transition the game forward Fucking alien of a player
Unpopular opinion but Pele played with an incredibly strong team and many of his team mates also played in Santos. Maradona at a personal level is a controversial figure, but as a footballer he was a force of nature. As far as Messi goes, I used to think he needed to do more at National level, despite winning Copa America, but now its clear to me whether he wins the world cup or not that he is the best player of all time and that’s coming from a Madrid fan.
@@zeckchi0148 No we are not, but you have to consider the difference in leading an underdog to victory, and being part of the strongest team which wins the tournament easily. The first is an infinitely more difficult task, and hence is given far more respect. Pele as you mentioned has one in 1972, which IMO is more valuable than other 2 combined. Similarly although Maradona has only one, his performance in 1986 is so dominating that single one is already good enough. Same for Messi that is if he manages to win.
Not seen or never will see a player who dominated all the attacking aspects of the game like Messi. For people who constantly watch football matches, there never was a debate.
Messi is so good. That you just don't know what to talk about. The goals? The dribbles ? The playmaking? The longevity? The achievements ? Every aspect tick marked in big bold letters. Every other player has got one or the other, Messi got all of that and that too he's been better than anyone else in all of those areas individually taken ! Man we're just truly blessed !
Nowadays, football is a team sport more than ever. How many times we have seen a whole team come up with a strategy to beat Messi only for them to fail? How many times we have seen a whole team set up in a way only to stop Messi's free kick and fail? Plus nowadays even an average footballer has to be way more athletic to compete. It's way more difficult today to be an exceptional player. Messi has even proven at 35 years old that he is a class above the most gifted physical players like Haaland and Mbappe. The longevity this guy has achieved has never been seen before. Yes, Maradona was exceptional but for how many years? It was like Ronaldinho. He was the best player in the world but only for a few seasons. Messi has been dominating the stage for 16 years. It's unreal. Now at 35 and he is better than Haaland and Mbappe. For me, if you have to be considered the best you need to have this kind of contributory factor. Not a world cup. In order to win the world cup you need first of all luck. To be born in a country that can win it and secondly to have good enough teammates that can contribute in those exact moments.
By your own definition Messi is the greatest today, but Pele is the greatest of all time. Pele consistently scored ~40% of Brazil's world cup goals in four World Cup tournaments spanning 12 years, winning three of them with the first being won at aged 17. That's another league entirely. I believe in the Pantheon of Football it will be Pele, Maradona, Messi. If Messi wins this World Cup he will surpass Maradona in that respect for sure.
@@houseofvenusMD I don't put so high the world cup. Many things can go wrong. As I said, it's a team game. If France for example win Dembele will get the medal. Does it mean that hibis better than Messi? Absolutely not. Another factor is that you can be the MVP of the tournament and still don't win anything. To be more clear, Messi did everything correct with the game against the Dutch, but if Martinez didn't had catch those penalties Argentina would be out. So Messi "greatness" depends on others too.
@@houseofvenusMD im sorry but the level of Pele's oppositions compared to what Messi and CR7 faced week in week out for 16 to 20 years straight,nah not even close.Pele is one of the greats but Messi is clear for sure
Messi is basically Maradona + the goals. We've seen pace merchants (Mbappe,Ronaldo) and pure poachers (Haaland, Ronaldo, Gerd Muller) come along in every generation. But we have yet to see players like Maradona and Messi dribble and passing/playmaking ability with the ball. The fact Maradona was even in the goat debate with Pele when Pele scored a outrageous amount of goals while Maradona doesn't really have big goal scoring numbers says it all. Football ability matters.
@@Sircoochie Messi does not have a lot of pace since like 2013 or 2014 where he had a bunch of injury issues. In a full sprint, many players would beat him. But he still has great acceleration and deceleration, excellent dribbling, and good upper body strength which allows him to make up for it.
You say merchant like it's a useless part of the game so can we say ball control merchant or assist merchant? 😂 You're crazy . And ronaldo has many assist and many parts to his game
Thank you TIFO for the most calm and rational discussion about the places of Messi and CR7 in the pantheon of Football. I especially like the idea of the greatest player in the world being ephemeral pre Messi/CR7 and the idea of Messi/CR7 as representative of football ideology. I hadn't considered that.
There’s an interview clip in “Messi: A God Amongst Men” where the interviewer asks (not sure the interviewee): - Who’s better Messi or Ronaldo? - Messi - Why? - Messi is natural I agree there’s something mechanical about Ronaldo that’s awe-inspiring. But I get this emotional, almost spiritual feeling while watching Messi.
Why do you say that ‘86 Arg team is weaker than today? Any evidence? i watched that entire WC and that Arg team was incredible in defense and made counter ops for Maradona. Maradona didnt win that on his own either.
I think that was his point, that in reality saying one team was stronger may be incorrect because a lot of those players might have been forgotten to time
The reason I think why the World Cup doesn't matter with being the goat, is when players like George Best are mentioned, If Maradona, Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Maldini, Cristiano etc all played for the Faroe Islands (not at the same time) then they have 0 chance of any international success, but that does not discredit them one iota from being great. Messi is the greatest at LEAST of this generation with or without a World Cup, but the sad thing is he NEEDS to win it to convince people of the already obvious truth.
Is Messi the best player ever? Let's wait until he's 35 and then let the result of one game decide. Seems like a logical way to evaluate his entire body of work.
Exactly what I have been saying for ages now. A player doesn’t win a world cup, a team does. So judging a player based on team succes is just dumb. Look at what the player does individually on the field to judge him. Messi is the best, even if he plays for the worst team in the world and doesn’t win a team trophy… A player like Haaland won’t win a single trophy for his nation, does that make him a worse player than ‘world cup winner Mbappé’? Let’s see if Mbappé would win the world cup for Norway….
I feel like Messi has had all time great moments, statistics and awards in every competition he’s played in. Domestic League, Domestic Cup, Champions League, Copa America and in 2014 he had an amazing World Cup but we hadn’t seen him score in the KO stages and this World Cup he’s added that to his career. There’s no competition you can say that Messi hasn’t left an all time great legacy in and it’s so difficult to say that that’s not what makes someone the greatest of all time.
Earlier the debate was messi to win the cup and now hater will say he will won, but with a stronger team? How could just a span of 20 days decide who's better at mere footballing abilities.
@@rohhhann yes and they also reached 1990 WC final 🤷🏻♂️ where Maradona had 0 goals the entire tournament Argentina from 1986 to 1993 were very good…Maradona single handedly didn’t carry anyone…that’s just a false narrative
@@vb2388 Maradona played with an injury in WC 90 where they won only 2 games en route to the final. He wasn't physically 100% but still helped them to another final. He was voted the 3rd best player despite this. In 1986 Argentina doesn't win the World Cup without Maradona. All Argentina's playmaking went through him. That side was more reliant on Maradona than Argentina is to Messi.
@@vb2388 Two players from 1986 were in 1991 and 1993 squads. Oscar Ruggeri and reserve GK Luis Islas. Maradona carried a different group of players to glory.
@@rohhhann if Maradona was injured that ain’t Messi’s fault.. Lahm himself had stated that in 2014 WC, the Argentina team were very reliant on Messi, they just passed him the ball and waited for him to do something…similar to Maradona in 86.. No single player can win anything…you need a well functioning team to win trophies which what both Maradona and Messi have..
I got into soccer because of Thierry Henry and the invincibles. I thought, “man football will never get better than this”. And then I witnessed Messi and Ronaldo, and I was completely wrong lol. I’m just happy I got to witness it.
I think the big misconcept when people talk about Messi is how inconceivable his ability is, and in return we should not aspire to it. I have heard a few commentators say, Messi way of playing is so inexplicable that coaches shouldnt tell their students to learn from Messi on account of the sheer talent he possess. He is magician of the sport, and very few can do what he does, but this magical aspect of his gameplay diminishes the very hard--earned intelligence aspect that comes into play. And although many would only dream to dribble like Messi, many of his other godly abilities are still rooted in a great understanding of the game. Passing and vision especially. Whilst his dribbling and finishing is absolutely phenomenal, whast makes Messi so efficient is how he reacts to each opportunity. He is by far the most rational player in the game. He never waste any chances, never tries for 40-yard screamers, everything is purposeful. He is a master of reading the game and renown for almost 'dissappearing' 15-20 minutes of the match to analyse the best way to approach the defender at any particular game. This intelligence is to me what makes Messi the GOAT
As someone new to football (soccer) in the past few years, love the channel and this particular episode really resonated. Coming as a hockey fan, I see a lot of the parallels in the Messi-Ronaldo debate with Crosby-Ovechkin. Fascinating points that really made a lot of sense.
I think if you answer this question with any certainty, all you're saying is that you haven't considered the question enough. Hardly anyone working in football media or closely watching the game today has enough of an idea of just *how good* Pelé was, or Maradona, or Di Stefano, or Puskas, or Cruyff, or Garrincha, or whoever. Even those who were alive then and are alive now are so frequently dismissive of the modern crop of players that it just seems like old-peopleness. All I can say, all any of us can really say, is who is the best we've seen. And if you're my age, the best you've seen is Messi. There are no questions about it.
@Netaji-The British Slayer I think Puskas and Garrincha fall short of GOAT standards, but I think they deserve consideration for top 10, maybe even top 5. I can't say for sure, because I haven't watched them like that.
I am old enough to have watched all the greats from Pele, through Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, George Best, Beckenbauer, Maradona and a few not so well known, such as Jimmy Johnson, Jim Baxter, Stanley Matthews (played till he was 50) and many more.. For many years, Pele was the best player I had ever seen but the little man from Argentina, tops them all.. In general I agree, many people will tend to favour players they saw in their youth or who played for their teams, countries etc. Not all do. They love the art, skill and entertainment provided by the greats. The little man from Argentina was gifted by evolution and genetics with a set of skills, that he honed by practice and hard work, into the greatest player I have ever seen.. Yes some could jump higher, hit a ball harder, juggle the ball a little more deftly or run faster but Messi can do ALL of those, things, to an extremely high level. The others had maybe one or two of those skills, he has ALL of them.
It is extremely difficult to say, comparing players is always a hard thing to do given that each player is different in both position on the pictch aswell as playing style, but each player is also at the mercy of factors beyond their control. You don't win games/titles alone, football is a team sport. In the end, by a very slim margin, Messi is the best for me tho. Players like CR7, R9, Maradonna, Pele (and more i'm forgetting) are close behind Messi and maybe recency bias is also at play here, but all things considered i think Messi is the best.
i agree with your entire logic, but for me Ronaldo is slightly better than all the rest, but i agree 100% with your theory, and i would actually say ronaldo and messi stand alone as the goats
Messi is the goat whether he wins the World Cup or not but if he wins the trophy he’s only going to distance himself from the rest of the goat candidates. With that said my list is 1. Messi 2. Maradona 3. Pele 4. C. Ronaldo 5. Zidane 6. Beckenbauer 7. Ronaldo (Brazilian) 8. Ronaldinho 9. George Best 10. Cruyff
If he wins this world cup he'll be the greatest of all time, absolutely no contest. I mean Ronaldo in my opinion is close, but after that there is no contest whatsoever. Ronaldo will be remembered for the sheer drive and dedication to football and his clutch moments can't be overlooked, But Messi will be remembered by his pure "playing with the ball" moments. Both of them are great in their own ways, but as I said Messi will come out on top.
cant compare people of different generations football's a completely different game now than 20 years ago never mind 30, 50, 80 years ago, but he's far and away the best of his generation
@@csbdcsbd8728 He's statistically the best goalscorer, best playmaker, best dribbler, and most influential player of this era. While Ronaldo may come close to his raw goal tally, Messi is the most complte attacking player of this generation by a mile.
@@nicolasho7664 but why are you using just dribbling as an example. Why do you fair to give out loads of attributes such as Ronaldo being arguably the best header of all time?
Hindsight 2022..... Now hes the g.o.a.t.. no questions asked. 2 goals and thats Minor in the grand Scope of things. His leadership in this WC was legendary. And im brazillian ffs.
Numbers from 2012 seasson across the globe: Premier League Champion: Manchester City. 93 goals League 1 Champion: Montpellier. 68 goals Serie A Champion: Juventus. 79 goals (Max scorer Zlatan with 28 goals, Max passer Pirlo with 13 assists) Bundesliga Champion: Borussia Dortmund. 89 goals (Max scorer Huntelaar with 29 goals, Max passer Riverí with 12 assists) Monster-Peak Leonel: 91 goals and 37 assists
Literally, the guy was scoring as much as the best teams of the other leagues, while doubling (and even tripling) the amount of assists of the best passers of each one of those leagues. How can you do that, is beyond human understanding.
Ronaldo - all time great level goal scorer, has won everything at an individual and club level, champion of his continent, countless records Messi - all that + a World Cup while being one of the greatest playmakers this game as ever seen.
One way to end the comparison (or prove that it never existed) is this: How long can you sit through a highlights reel of Messi's plays vs one of Ronaldo's?
I can watch hours and hours of messi, but only 1 hour of Ronaldo. The way Messi still has the ball in almost all situations is just unreal to me as a guy who loves to dribble
I have never seen anyone played football like that ! Scoring amazing goals week in week out and dribbling past defenders like against school boys plus the vision of his passing .....but we'll miss him .
1:45 there is a weird narrative that Maradona dragged his teams and although I wasn’t there to dispute this with my own experience, with the information available I don’t think that’s a fair conclusion. Argentina won the World Cup in 1978 without Maradona, won it in 1986 with Maradona a masterclass and then reached the finals again in 1990 when Maradona objectively (both statistically and in the opinion of people that watched) played poorly.
Messi is the goat and it ends there. Its no longer a subjective thing. Pele won 2 world cups and yes i said 2 bc i dont count him playing one game in group stages while garincha won brazil the world cup. Also he arguably had the greatest international teams of all time and no offside rule which significantly helped attackers. Sorry but pele was a great player in his era and thats it. Maradona is better than pele but maradona doesn’t come close to messi club achievements and doesn’t have a copa america so he also loses to messi. R9 was the most talented footballer ever imo but injuries and not winning the ucl harms his legacy. Dinho had everything and won everything but he just didn’t play at the top for too long so messi wins again. Cr37 is not even worth debating sorry
Anyone who isn't a Ronaldo fanboy (not to take anything away from what he has achieved) & actually watches football, knows there is no debate. Messi is the GOAT whether he wins the WC or not. Even as a Brazil fan, I'm hoping he does though, for his sake & to shut down this 'debate'.
86 side was weaker than this? Check this... Plus-minus measures the impact of a player on their team’s performance. Originally invented by hockey general managers, every player on the ice is awarded a plus when their team scores a goal while every opponent player on ice gets a minus. The higher the plus-minus rating, the higher the net positive of goals scored for a player’s team. In terms of plus-minus, the best player has the highest plus-minus score, and the worst player has the lowest. 1. Julián Álvarez • Argentina +11 2. Theo Hernández • France +10 3. Kylian Mbappé • France +9 Jordan Pickford • England +9 Jude Bellingham • England +9 John Stones • England +9 Hugo Lloris • France +9 Antoine Griezmann • France +9 9. Harry Maguire • England +8 Cristian Romero • Argentina +8 Luke Shaw • England +8 Enzo Fernández • Argentina +8 César Azpilicueta • Spain +8 Harry Kane • England +8 Declan Rice • England +8 Olivier Giroud • France +8 Rodrigo De Paul • Argentina +8 1. Jorge Burruchaga • Argentina +10 2. Jorge Valdano • Argentina +9 Oleksandr Zavarov • Soviet Union +9 Elzo Coelho • Brazil +9 José Luis Brown • Argentina +9 Alemão • Brazil +9 Nery Pumpido • Argentina +9 Edinho • Brazil +9 Branco • Brazil +9 Oscar Ruggeri • Argentina +9 Careca • Brazil +9 Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior • Brazil +9 Diego Maradona • Argentina +9 Júlio César • Brazil +9 Carlos Roberto Gallo • Brazil +9 Ricardo Giusti • Argentina +
Why is it during these debates Messi’s entire creative assist numbers aren’t weighted as they should be. Since Messi has made his debut in football. He’s scored more goals than anyone else including Ronaldo all while providing far and away more assists than anyone else. How is this even possible… and why is this not given the reverence it deserves. Goal scoring is one thing but to score the most while also create the most… well that’s simple never in the history of football been achieved.
Messi is clinical never ever seen such a finishing before so cold so clean his precision, Vision, Ball controll is unbelievable. On the other Hand CR7 who is the hardest worker out there with a strong will and Personality. Throw them both in their prime in a Team together and give them mates that like modric and Co. and they will beat a Team with Pelé and Maradona
Man, I was really hoping for Messi vs Ronaldo final, their last World Cup, both missing that trophy, I would had expected for both to be in the mood and turn back the clock a bit
Its easily Messi. Cristiano has never had that Genius quality that makes people unable to comprehend and applaud brilliance. There is only 1 man that has completed Football and its Messi,
I don't know if he's the best ever but he was already on the mount rushmore before the world cup. I'm 32 and he is the best i've ever seen by some distance.
Maradona carried Jose Brown to start in World Cup final. At the time Brown was a third division player in Argentina. The lack of quality in that Argentina side that he dragged to wins in historic ways isn’t mentioned enough.
Just because deportivo Español are bad now doesn't mean they were always like that... in the 85/85 season they were in the top division and ended second in the league, in large part because of Brown...
For me the meaning behind the best player is (a) the one that is able to produce the best football at crucial times to win a game, (b) plays with skill and ability on and off the ball, and (C) produces moments that you are happy to watch over and over again and is not just about kicking a ball in triangles every 5-10 yards around people. Messi leads the way in all 3 criteria and add to that his longevity I cannot see how it is a discussion. Pele was the poster boy for football and to win 3 world cups is outstanding but the teams he played in were outstanding. Maradonna is someone that won things on his own, and some of the things he could do just blows your mind.Interestingly he looked up to George Best who because of where he lived never got to play in a world cup and so is never spoken about in these conversations. But when Messi copied Maradonna's goal and then exceeded it on more than 1 occasion then we would have to say he is the best. Ironically i do not like these conversations i just like seeing good players show not just their skills but their will to win because without that they do not get anywhere
If we talk about national teams, winning a world cup is definitely important. Now comparing individuals, it makes sense to me to use individual achievements and stats.
Maradona or messi? are you guys kidding? both !!!!!! the only thing you have to look is the human part and the records !!!! messi he is humble and a really nice person and hi gives people hope and dreams and that anything is possible
The Goat 🐐 completed football at the age of 35. The Greatest Football Player Of All Times. 🐐 Champs: U-20 WC 2005 Olympic Gold Medal 2008 Copa America 2021 Finalissima 2022 World Cup 2022 ⭐⭐⭐
Halaand and Mbappe will never reach the heights of Ronaldo and Messi. Yes those strikers will score goals, and a lot of them. However, Messi and Ronaldo have done transcends all the goals they scored. Especially Messi, he completely eclipsed Maradona and Pele. When people talk about Messi they compare him with Maradona or Pele, but when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. There is a level, that I think neither Mbappe or Halaand will ever reach.
love the point about them occupying different ideological spaces. CR7 stands for excellence through sheer hardwork determination while messi is that unquantifiable thing aka genius. both have a sprinkle of both but broadly speaking that's what they represent. I'll always give the nod toward genius.
FOR ME MESSI IS NR 1 THE GOAT THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER. WC DON'T MATTER HE TOOK THEM 2 THE FINALS 2 TIMES. BUT PEAK PRIME YEARS MESSI AND RONALDINHO IS THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN AND ENJOYED GENUINELY BUT THE LONGEVITY MESSI🐐⚽️❤️💯🪄😍🥰🗣📽📽 HAS PROVEN IS JUST UNMATCHED SO HE TAKES IT BY FAR HE GOT IT ALL.
I don't mean to offend anybody but a majority of Ronaldo fans are children who idolize Ronaldo because of his physical traits and charisma while matured adults can clearly see how unmatched Messi is at the pitch
You need to ask a wide age of people that are not only of today's generation But people from different past era's that watched other great players when they played It'll boil down to genarational exposure & preference
Messi didn't need the World Cup to be the Greatest Of All Times, he already was. He needed it to prove to the rest of the argentinian he could be as great as Maradona was, because at the end, Messi is argentinian, and for an argentinian all that matters is to be viewed as a winner for your country. Had not Messi won the ultimate trophy, he would have retired being the biggest athlete that has ever walked this world BUT not in Argentina. He would have lived his life under the shadow of Diego. Now Lio can say he is as great as Diego ever was, and argentinian people finally have surrended to him. He is the best player in the planet now, AND in Argentina too.
messi is the greatest, ever. but me saying that, doesn't take away from cr7's greatness. and I think people should understand that. you can love one without having to hate the other. gracias a dios, por Messi 🙏🏼
Ok winning a trophy doesn't make you a better player. But being the best player in the worlds best team has to give you some kudos. On top of everything else the answer has to be objectively yes. It's all subjective though. Football is entertainment snd produces emotional responses. A wolves fan might say steve bull is the greatest player that ever lived and to them that would be 100% correct. But it's an enjoyable discussion.
I really struggle to see why people cannot answer this easily. He was for about 12-13 the best dribbler, passer and finisher. If a player is the best at one of these, they are considered great. Anyone in doubt, go back and watch messi from aged 17-30. There is a reason he has over 380 MOTM award 😂😂😂😂😂 insane
Probably the wheels are turning for Messi. Messi had to leave last world cup with near humiliation. It is his time now. His team wants to give the WC gift to him. He is the best player by far.
He isn't. Pelé is and no one will ever be able to take that post. It simply can't be done. Every single thing any modern footballer does, Pelé already did, and many of them he came up with. 3 world cups. Messi is amazing but number 2 at best.
“Other than Messi the Argentina team is high end average”!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Di Maria is the most underrated player of all time! He is the invisible hero of Argentina 🥹
cristiano embodies the "never giving up" & "work hard" mentally and ideologies which makes him one of the best in world to regular joe's because they have someone to look up to who neither had the talent but sheer tenacity to become the best, so to them they can also be the best if they work as hard. i think that's why nike signed him because their ideologies go hand in hand where as with messi it's a different story, the guy is just born with this talent even with challenges he faced growing up, nothing would've stopped him from performing at the level he does. he's just an angel given to us to make football look so easy while performing at the most high. so the debate is always going to be pulled to different directions because of that but for me watching messi always brought joy and amazement & that's why he is the GOAT & which cristiano i can always expect things and i would just appreciate him for that
Ronaldo and Messi for me are the undisputed goats. I respect Maradona and Pele, but i honestly think anyone with a footballing brain knows Ronaldo and Messi are the 2 goats. And at that point it's subjective in my opinion how you rank them. Totally different players, totally different styles, totally different journeys. For me Ronaldo is number 1 and messi is number 2. But Maybe saying Ronaldo is 1.a and Messi is 1.b would be more correct i guess, because thy stand at the top together
You’re just completely wrong. How can a service player like Ronaldo be better than someone that’s more complete at attacking? Football is about trophies goals and assists in which Messi is better at in every way. The only reason why ronaldo had a few more goals is because he has 148 games extra played. Additionally, just watch how Messi plays regularly dribbling past 4 players at a time Ronaldo has not done that. You’re delusional. Messi is in a different stratosphere. Messi is individually the best player to step on the pitch and with 7 Ballon Dors to back it up.
Messi is better at passing shooting dribbling Vision freekicks almost everything except Headers! How is CR7 a better football player thats just illogical
Messi vs Ronaldo debate had always bored me. We’ve been blessed to watch two of the greatest footballers to ever kick a ball - and media wants to do is pick a loser.
For me there is no one who is the greatest player of All time yet. Because I view it as impossible. There are many legends and one of the best player of all time that I agreed on, but only one? For me the player must achieve many things and win a lot of competition. Also be protagonist in all. And Messi is now close to become the best player of all time. I never seen this good since 2009 with his Barcelona. Also there is no xavi or iniesta to help. It takes time to come up in the top or be there in a long time. Wins he the World Cup, he will be the best player of all time in my eye
People claim Ronaldo is the best athlete because he's 6'2" with muscles. He played an exciting brand of football for a small amount of time and then became a poacher. Messi has a great physique and is a strong as a bull and has never changed his style of play. He's still exciting at the age of 35 but Ronaldo has become a goalscorer. Tell me Messi isn't the best athlete as well.
Because Ronaldo is 6'2" with muscles, he's deemed the best athlete when Messi is smaller but has a great physique and has played the same way his whole career. Ronaldo was a very exciting player for a very small period of time and then became a poacher. I think that shows who the better athlete is. Also youtube Messi headers and tell me he can't jump/header.
@@juvenilegolden agree. It's just a height difference. Many players that have commented they're surprised at how friggin strong Messi is. His legs are solid
He's EASILY the greatest. Its already set in stone. a World Cup win is just to complete his trophy cabinet + the cherry on top
amen bruv
Absolutely correct. It would also be fun to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans if Messi lifts the WC
@@gouravghosh588 bruh noone even talked about ronaldo here why is he living rent free in ur head
@@franalytics5995 Goes to show who is living rent free is who's head. I just said it would be funny to watch the meltdown of Penaldo fans. He doesn't live my head, because I don't even consider him a rival to Messi
@@gouravghosh588 the comment was about Messi's obvious greatness and brilliance, and how he's the clear goat and then u say i can't wait to see the meltdown of penaldo fans, u don't need to disrespect Ronaldo and act like a toxic Twitter npc, we weren't even talking about ronaldo or his fans, get Ronaldo outta ur head boi
He is the best player at 35 at the world cup most goals Most assists Most chances created. He was the goat before the world cup even now
no he isn't.
@@ElDragow damn you make some great points
@@ElDragow stick to anime weeb 😂
@Charlie Green if I’m not mistaken yes. Messi is 2nd. He created one less chance than griezman. It’s still great tho. Having the 2nd most created chance in World cup
I know you're only using the venacular, but can we show the great man the respect he deserves by actually spelling out the word 'The Greatest'? It's the least we can do for all the magnificent things he has shown us.
To me what makes Messi so much better than anyone else is that, if he had not scored a single goal in his entire career but kept everything else as it is now, we'd still be talking about him as the best playmaker and one of the best players in history
But he scored goals, 800 of them, he's just so good at every single attacking aspect of the game that we kind of "forget" that he's also the best finisher in modern football history, so much so that Ronaldo unfairly got that title, Messi is untouchable
About 10 years ago Barcelona thrashed Real Madrid by scoring 5 goals. Messi didn’t score a single goal in that match but he was still MOTM, that’s the kind of impact he has even when not scoring.
@@nazmulbhuiyan1982 That game is so iconic. I remember watching Messi slowly walking off the pitch looking like he had just defeated an army.
Its not the records or the silverware, its the Football and the lasting memory that leaves in all of us.
Just watch him play.. The Greatest.
@@nazmulbhuiyan1982 i have this game in my movie folder on my hard disc. the folder is labeled ( and that is a copied quote from the folder): "Barca vs Kacknoobs 29 11 2010" xD kacknoobs means shitnoobs ^^ i have about 30 games of barcelona on that hard disc. some obvious like the arsenal game, some probably only i remember, because messi didnt score ( lol) but still did things you cant talk about. the latter ones are my gems.
None can be compared to him, he's the greatest footballer to play the game.
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@ElDragow drugs are not good for you nor anyone, unless prescribed by a doctor.
@@ElDragow at what? For me Ronaldo slightly edges Messi at goal scoring but that’s it.
@@Ar021 even then Messi’s goal per game ratio is better, he’s got more golden boots, record for most goals in a year and season, more goals in finals and more goals from the bench.
@@ElDragow Go and check the stats then. Messi is above Ronaldo on almost every metric, except for headers. He has the better dribbling, passing and even edges him on goal scoring. Next to that he has a ton more assists than him, and the superior vision. Although Ronaldo is definitely one of the best players to ever grace the pitch, Messi still edges him. I also have never seen Ronaldo dribbling almost whole teams on a constant basis, as if he was still in school. The amount of solo goals Messi made is insane. I really do not understand why this is even a debate, because for me the eye test already shows who the better one is.
If Messi was only one of the greatest dribblers of all time, then it's a debate over whether he is indeed the greatest of all time.
The issue is... he will also go down as one of the greatest goal-scorers of all time, with 91 goals in ONE YEAR IS ABSURD... it is absolutely ridiculous his proficiency at scoring.
But then you add the fact that he's not simply those two things... he will go down as one of the GREATEST direct creators, how many times have you seen Messi slip in players 1 on 1 with defence-splitting balls. Then add on the passing - the weight of pass is crazy, he can hit switches like nothing.
THEN ADD ON TO THE FACT, HE'S AN ELITE ELITE PLAYMAKER... how many times is this guy going to drop deep and start plays, create combinations and transition the game forward
Fucking alien of a player
Unpopular opinion but Pele played with an incredibly strong team and many of his team mates also played in Santos. Maradona at a personal level is a controversial figure, but as a footballer he was a force of nature. As far as Messi goes, I used to think he needed to do more at National level, despite winning Copa America, but now its clear to me whether he wins the world cup or not that he is the best player of all time and that’s coming from a Madrid fan.
Pele supposedly "won" the World Cup in 1962 when he missed most of the tournament and it was Garrincha that actually carried Brasil to victory.
The Brazilian team Pele played in where mostly filled with Botafogo player there were only three players from santos on the team.
@@gumdeo so you’re going to ignore the other two world cups including the 1972 cup in which he was the best player of the tournament.
@@zeckchi0148 was his team the best by far of any nation in all roles or that’s something we’re going to ignore?
@@zeckchi0148 No we are not, but you have to consider the difference in leading an underdog to victory, and being part of the strongest team which wins the tournament easily. The first is an infinitely more difficult task, and hence is given far more respect. Pele as you mentioned has one in 1972, which IMO is more valuable than other 2 combined.
Similarly although Maradona has only one, his performance in 1986 is so dominating that single one is already good enough.
Same for Messi that is if he manages to win.
Not seen or never will see a player who dominated all the attacking aspects of the game like Messi. For people who constantly watch football matches, there never was a debate.
Couldn't agree more
Explain how he dominates all the attacking aspects
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@csbdcsbd8728 playmaking. dribbling and goalcoring and set pieces he is the best at all of them
@@Zakaria_cfc so he's the greatest goalscorer of all time? With the most goals? Interesting. That's news to me
Messi is so good. That you just don't know what to talk about. The goals? The dribbles ? The playmaking? The longevity? The achievements ? Every aspect tick marked in big bold letters. Every other player has got one or the other, Messi got all of that and that too he's been better than anyone else in all of those areas individually taken ! Man we're just truly blessed !
Nowadays, football is a team sport more than ever. How many times we have seen a whole team come up with a strategy to beat Messi only for them to fail? How many times we have seen a whole team set up in a way only to stop Messi's free kick and fail? Plus nowadays even an average footballer has to be way more athletic to compete. It's way more difficult today to be an exceptional player. Messi has even proven at 35 years old that he is a class above the most gifted physical players like Haaland and Mbappe. The longevity this guy has achieved has never been seen before. Yes, Maradona was exceptional but for how many years? It was like Ronaldinho. He was the best player in the world but only for a few seasons. Messi has been dominating the stage for 16 years. It's unreal. Now at 35 and he is better than Haaland and Mbappe. For me, if you have to be considered the best you need to have this kind of contributory factor. Not a world cup. In order to win the world cup you need first of all luck. To be born in a country that can win it and secondly to have good enough teammates that can contribute in those exact moments.
Spot on
By your own definition Messi is the greatest today, but Pele is the greatest of all time. Pele consistently scored ~40% of Brazil's world cup goals in four World Cup tournaments spanning 12 years, winning three of them with the first being won at aged 17. That's another league entirely. I believe in the Pantheon of Football it will be Pele, Maradona, Messi. If Messi wins this World Cup he will surpass Maradona in that respect for sure.
@@houseofvenusMD I don't put so high the world cup. Many things can go wrong. As I said, it's a team game. If France for example win Dembele will get the medal. Does it mean that hibis better than Messi? Absolutely not. Another factor is that you can be the MVP of the tournament and still don't win anything. To be more clear, Messi did everything correct with the game against the Dutch, but if Martinez didn't had catch those penalties Argentina would be out. So Messi "greatness" depends on others too.
@@houseofvenusMD im sorry but the level of Pele's oppositions compared to what Messi and CR7 faced week in week out for 16 to 20 years straight,nah not even close.Pele is one of the greats but Messi is clear for sure
Messi is basically Maradona + the goals. We've seen pace merchants (Mbappe,Ronaldo) and pure poachers (Haaland, Ronaldo, Gerd Muller) come along in every generation. But we have yet to see players like Maradona and Messi dribble and passing/playmaking ability with the ball. The fact Maradona was even in the goat debate with Pele when Pele scored a outrageous amount of goals while Maradona doesn't really have big goal scoring numbers says it all. Football ability matters.
Not to forget, Messi is also in the conversation for best playmaker ever too, alongside players like Cruyff and Zidane in that regard
To reduce Mbappe and Ronaldo(Portuguese or Brazilian) to pace merchants is criminal, no ball knowledge
Pace merchants - messi is as fast
Poachers - messi scores more
Creators - messi assists more
@@Sircoochie Messi does not have a lot of pace since like 2013 or 2014 where he had a bunch of injury issues. In a full sprint, many players would beat him. But he still has great acceleration and deceleration, excellent dribbling, and good upper body strength which allows him to make up for it.
You say merchant like it's a useless part of the game so can we say ball control merchant or assist merchant? 😂 You're crazy . And ronaldo has many assist and many parts to his game
Thank you TIFO for the most calm and rational discussion about the places of Messi and CR7 in the pantheon of Football. I especially like the idea of the greatest player in the world being ephemeral pre Messi/CR7 and the idea of Messi/CR7 as representative of football ideology. I hadn't considered that.
There’s an interview clip in “Messi: A God Amongst Men” where the interviewer asks (not sure the interviewee):
- Who’s better Messi or Ronaldo?
- Messi
- Why?
- Messi is natural
I agree there’s something mechanical about Ronaldo that’s awe-inspiring. But I get this emotional, almost spiritual feeling while watching Messi.
Why do you say that ‘86 Arg team is weaker than today? Any evidence? i watched that entire WC and that Arg team was incredible in defense and made counter ops for Maradona. Maradona didnt win that on his own either.
I think that was his point, that in reality saying one team was stronger may be incorrect because a lot of those players might have been forgotten to time
Stats
look at the team player by player by player, bench by bench
86 goalie was weaker for a start...
And Carlos Bilardo was a smart muthafucka
The reason I think why the World Cup doesn't matter with being the goat, is when players like George Best are mentioned, If Maradona, Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Maldini, Cristiano etc all played for the Faroe Islands (not at the same time) then they have 0 chance of any international success, but that does not discredit them one iota from being great. Messi is the greatest at LEAST of this generation with or without a World Cup, but the sad thing is he NEEDS to win it to convince people of the already obvious truth.
Is Messi the best player ever? Let's wait until he's 35 and then let the result of one game decide. Seems like a logical way to evaluate his entire body of work.
Exactly what I have been saying for ages now. A player doesn’t win a world cup, a team does. So judging a player based on team succes is just dumb. Look at what the player does individually on the field to judge him. Messi is the best, even if he plays for the worst team in the world and doesn’t win a team trophy… A player like Haaland won’t win a single trophy for his nation, does that make him a worse player than ‘world cup winner Mbappé’? Let’s see if Mbappé would win the world cup for Norway….
@@ielitecod933Mbappe is better than Haaland
Even if Messi wins the World Cup, Shaka from ESPN would rank him #10 in his world famous power rankings
I feel like Messi has had all time great moments, statistics and awards in every competition he’s played in. Domestic League, Domestic Cup, Champions League, Copa America and in 2014 he had an amazing World Cup but we hadn’t seen him score in the KO stages and this World Cup he’s added that to his career. There’s no competition you can say that Messi hasn’t left an all time great legacy in and it’s so difficult to say that that’s not what makes someone the greatest of all time.
Earlier the debate was messi to win the cup and now hater will say he will won, but with a stronger team?
How could just a span of 20 days decide who's better at mere footballing abilities.
That 1986 Argentina team wasn't weak. They won the Copa America without Maradona. This Argentine team without Messi could never.
Argentina won Copa America in 1991 with different players.
@@rohhhann yes and they also reached 1990 WC final 🤷🏻♂️ where Maradona had 0 goals the entire tournament
Argentina from 1986 to 1993 were very good…Maradona single handedly didn’t carry anyone…that’s just a false narrative
@@vb2388 Maradona played with an injury in WC 90 where they won only 2 games en route to the final. He wasn't physically 100% but still helped them to another final. He was voted the 3rd best player despite this. In 1986 Argentina doesn't win the World Cup without Maradona. All Argentina's playmaking went through him. That side was more reliant on Maradona than Argentina is to Messi.
@@vb2388 Two players from 1986 were in 1991 and 1993 squads. Oscar Ruggeri and reserve GK Luis Islas. Maradona carried a different group of players to glory.
@@rohhhann if Maradona was injured that ain’t Messi’s fault..
Lahm himself had stated that in 2014 WC, the Argentina team were very reliant on Messi, they just passed him the ball and waited for him to do something…similar to Maradona in 86..
No single player can win anything…you need a well functioning team to win trophies which what both Maradona and Messi have..
I got into soccer because of Thierry Henry and the invincibles. I thought, “man football will never get better than this”. And then I witnessed Messi and Ronaldo, and I was completely wrong lol. I’m just happy I got to witness it.
He was already greatest of all time many years ago like Arsene Wenger said.
I think the big misconcept when people talk about Messi is how inconceivable his ability is, and in return we should not aspire to it. I have heard a few commentators say, Messi way of playing is so inexplicable that coaches shouldnt tell their students to learn from Messi on account of the sheer talent he possess. He is magician of the sport, and very few can do what he does, but this magical aspect of his gameplay diminishes the very hard--earned intelligence aspect that comes into play. And although many would only dream to dribble like Messi, many of his other godly abilities are still rooted in a great understanding of the game. Passing and vision especially. Whilst his dribbling and finishing is absolutely phenomenal, whast makes Messi so efficient is how he reacts to each opportunity. He is by far the most rational player in the game. He never waste any chances, never tries for 40-yard screamers, everything is purposeful. He is a master of reading the game and renown for almost 'dissappearing' 15-20 minutes of the match to analyse the best way to approach the defender at any particular game. This intelligence is to me what makes Messi the GOAT
As someone new to football (soccer) in the past few years, love the channel and this particular episode really resonated. Coming as a hockey fan, I see a lot of the parallels in the Messi-Ronaldo debate with Crosby-Ovechkin. Fascinating points that really made a lot of sense.
I think if you answer this question with any certainty, all you're saying is that you haven't considered the question enough. Hardly anyone working in football media or closely watching the game today has enough of an idea of just *how good* Pelé was, or Maradona, or Di Stefano, or Puskas, or Cruyff, or Garrincha, or whoever. Even those who were alive then and are alive now are so frequently dismissive of the modern crop of players that it just seems like old-peopleness.
All I can say, all any of us can really say, is who is the best we've seen. And if you're my age, the best you've seen is Messi. There are no questions about it.
@Netaji-The British Slayer I think Puskas and Garrincha fall short of GOAT standards, but I think they deserve consideration for top 10, maybe even top 5. I can't say for sure, because I haven't watched them like that.
I am old enough to have watched all the greats from Pele, through Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, George Best, Beckenbauer, Maradona and a few not so well known, such as Jimmy Johnson, Jim Baxter, Stanley Matthews (played till he was 50) and many more..
For many years, Pele was the best player I had ever seen but the little man from Argentina, tops them all..
In general I agree, many people will tend to favour players they saw in their youth or who played for their teams, countries etc. Not all do. They love the art, skill and entertainment provided by the greats. The little man from Argentina was gifted by evolution and genetics with a set of skills, that he honed by practice and hard work, into the greatest player I have ever seen..
Yes some could jump higher, hit a ball harder, juggle the ball a little more deftly or run faster but Messi can do ALL of those, things, to an extremely high level. The others had maybe one or two of those skills, he has ALL of them.
@@AndyCampbellMusic incredible to hear your perspective, Andy! The best part of the internet is getting to see this sort of stuff.
@@AndyCampbellMusic damn sir, just how old are you? hope you have good life
Very reasonable comment, I approve
yes he is discussion is over
shouldn't even be a discussion obj
Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: Yeeeeessssss
One of the best discussions I've heard on the subject. I wish there was more content like this available.
It is extremely difficult to say, comparing players is always a hard thing to do given that each player is different in both position on the pictch aswell as playing style, but each player is also at the mercy of factors beyond their control. You don't win games/titles alone, football is a team sport.
In the end, by a very slim margin, Messi is the best for me tho.
Players like CR7, R9, Maradonna, Pele (and more i'm forgetting) are close behind Messi and maybe recency bias is also at play here, but all things considered i think Messi is the best.
i agree with your entire logic, but for me Ronaldo is slightly better than all the rest, but i agree 100% with your theory, and i would actually say ronaldo and messi stand alone as the goats
Messi is the goat whether he wins the World Cup or not but if he wins the trophy he’s only going to distance himself from the rest of the goat candidates. With that said my list is
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Pele
4. C. Ronaldo
5. Zidane
6. Beckenbauer
7. Ronaldo (Brazilian)
8. Ronaldinho
9. George Best
10. Cruyff
nice list::: I will only alter the list by putting cruyf at 5, put 6 at 10.
If he wins this world cup he'll be the greatest of all time, absolutely no contest.
I mean Ronaldo in my opinion is close, but after that there is no contest whatsoever.
Ronaldo will be remembered for the sheer drive and dedication to football and his clutch moments can't be overlooked,
But Messi will be remembered by his pure "playing with the ball" moments.
Both of them are great in their own ways, but as I said Messi will come out on top.
which 'clutch' moments? genuinely interested to know
@@arnold-hu4vkHe has many
So does and he’s got a world cup😂
cant compare people of different generations football's a completely different game now than 20 years ago never mind 30, 50, 80 years ago, but he's far and away the best of his generation
How is he far and away the best of his generation
@@csbdcsbd8728 He's statistically the best goalscorer, best playmaker, best dribbler, and most influential player of this era. While Ronaldo may come close to his raw goal tally, Messi is the most complte attacking player of this generation by a mile.
@@csbdcsbd8728 because of how he plays football better than anyone
@@nicolasho7664 but why are you using just dribbling as an example. Why do you fair to give out loads of attributes such as Ronaldo being arguably the best header of all time?
@@82not_Chris right nice response but how does he play football better than anyone
Hindsight 2022..... Now hes the g.o.a.t.. no questions asked. 2 goals and thats Minor in the grand Scope of things. His leadership in this WC was legendary. And im brazillian ffs.
Numbers from 2012 seasson across the globe:
Premier League Champion: Manchester City. 93 goals
League 1 Champion: Montpellier. 68 goals
Serie A Champion: Juventus. 79 goals (Max scorer Zlatan with 28 goals, Max passer Pirlo with 13 assists)
Bundesliga Champion: Borussia Dortmund. 89 goals (Max scorer Huntelaar with 29 goals, Max passer Riverí with 12 assists)
Monster-Peak Leonel: 91 goals and 37 assists
Literally, the guy was scoring as much as the best teams of the other leagues, while doubling (and even tripling) the amount of assists of the best passers of each one of those leagues.
How can you do that, is beyond human understanding.
Ronaldo - all time great level goal scorer, has won everything at an individual and club level, champion of his continent, countless records
Messi - all that + a World Cup while being one of the greatest playmakers this game as ever seen.
One way to end the comparison (or prove that it never existed) is this: How long can you sit through a highlights reel of Messi's plays vs one of Ronaldo's?
Ronaldo's highlights are easily better and more varied, messi's are boring and the same
@@ElDragow Then there is no comparison for you, right?
All of Messi's goals are the same.
@@ElDragow delusional
I can watch hours and hours of messi, but only 1 hour of Ronaldo. The way Messi still has the ball in almost all situations is just unreal to me as a guy who loves to dribble
I have never seen anyone played football like that ! Scoring amazing goals week in week out and dribbling past defenders like against school boys plus the vision of his passing .....but we'll miss him .
He is now 🏆
1:45 there is a weird narrative that Maradona dragged his teams and although I wasn’t there to dispute this with my own experience, with the information available I don’t think that’s a fair conclusion. Argentina won the World Cup in 1978 without Maradona, won it in 1986 with Maradona a masterclass and then reached the finals again in 1990 when Maradona objectively (both statistically and in the opinion of people that watched) played poorly.
The 78 WC was a fix, we know that now. The rest I agree with and I'm old enough to remember Mexico 86
Messi is the goat and it ends there. Its no longer a subjective thing. Pele won 2 world cups and yes i said 2 bc i dont count him playing one game in group stages while garincha won brazil the world cup. Also he arguably had the greatest international teams of all time and no offside rule which significantly helped attackers. Sorry but pele was a great player in his era and thats it. Maradona is better than pele but maradona doesn’t come close to messi club achievements and doesn’t have a copa america so he also loses to messi. R9 was the most talented footballer ever imo but injuries and not winning the ucl harms his legacy. Dinho had everything and won everything but he just didn’t play at the top for too long so messi wins again. Cr37 is not even worth debating sorry
Anyone who isn't a Ronaldo fanboy (not to take anything away from what he has achieved) & actually watches football, knows there is no debate. Messi is the GOAT whether he wins the WC or not. Even as a Brazil fan, I'm hoping he does though, for his sake & to shut down this 'debate'.
86 side was weaker than this? Check this...
Plus-minus measures the impact of a player on their team’s performance. Originally invented by hockey general managers, every player on the ice is awarded a plus when their team scores a goal while every opponent player on ice gets a minus. The higher the plus-minus rating, the higher the net positive of goals scored for a player’s team. In terms of plus-minus, the best player has the highest plus-minus score, and the worst player has the lowest.
1. Julián Álvarez • Argentina +11
2. Theo Hernández • France +10
3. Kylian Mbappé • France +9
Jordan Pickford • England +9
Jude Bellingham • England +9
John Stones • England +9
Hugo Lloris • France +9
Antoine Griezmann • France +9
9. Harry Maguire • England +8
Cristian Romero • Argentina +8
Luke Shaw • England +8
Enzo Fernández • Argentina +8
César Azpilicueta • Spain +8
Harry Kane • England +8
Declan Rice • England +8
Olivier Giroud • France +8
Rodrigo De Paul • Argentina +8
1. Jorge Burruchaga • Argentina +10
2. Jorge Valdano • Argentina +9
Oleksandr Zavarov • Soviet Union +9
Elzo Coelho • Brazil +9
José Luis Brown • Argentina +9
Alemão • Brazil +9
Nery Pumpido • Argentina +9
Edinho • Brazil +9
Branco • Brazil +9
Oscar Ruggeri • Argentina +9
Careca • Brazil +9
Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior • Brazil +9
Diego Maradona • Argentina +9
Júlio César • Brazil +9
Carlos Roberto Gallo • Brazil +9
Ricardo Giusti • Argentina +
Statistically, the 1986 team was better as they had more players with +9 and +10 than the 2022 side.
10:50 Great observation!!
Why is it during these debates Messi’s entire creative assist numbers aren’t weighted as they should be. Since Messi has made his debut in football. He’s scored more goals than anyone else including Ronaldo all while providing far and away more assists than anyone else. How is this even possible… and why is this not given the reverence it deserves. Goal scoring is one thing but to score the most while also create the most… well that’s simple never in the history of football been achieved.
Messi is clinical never ever seen such a finishing before so cold so clean his precision, Vision, Ball controll is unbelievable. On the other Hand CR7 who is the hardest worker out there with a strong will and Personality. Throw them both in their prime in a Team together and give them mates that like modric and Co. and they will beat a Team with Pelé and Maradona
It was never a debate. It was just so satisfying he won the WC with style and humiliated all the haters
Man, I was really hoping for Messi vs Ronaldo final, their last World Cup, both missing that trophy, I would had expected for both to be in the mood and turn back the clock a bit
Timing for ronaldo was all wrong, last season he seemed half decent but his legs now are completely shot
Its easily Messi. Cristiano has never had that Genius quality that makes people unable to comprehend and applaud brilliance. There is only 1 man that has completed Football and its Messi,
Has there been any objective analysis done on factors that determine GOAT status? Would see something on this topic from #tifo folks!
Fuck yeah he's the clear GOAT
It's not even up for debate anymore. MESSI is the GOD of football let alone 🐐
Portugal team on paper twice as good as Argentina. Says it all
Before the final: yes, he is
After the final: yes, and now the debate is over
I don't know if he's the best ever but he was already on the mount rushmore before the world cup. I'm 32 and he is the best i've ever seen by some distance.
YES... He's cemented his place now that his won the big one!
Maradona carried Jose Brown to start in World Cup final. At the time Brown was a third division player in Argentina. The lack of quality in that Argentina side that he dragged to wins in historic ways isn’t mentioned enough.
That being said Messi would be greater if he wins on Sunday imo. World Cup is to big of a trophy not to win as the goat.
Just because deportivo Español are bad now doesn't mean they were always like that... in the 85/85 season they were in the top division and ended second in the league, in large part because of Brown...
@@belugatheband2023 they played in the Argentine 3d division please look it up
@@razino5963 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportivo_Espa%C3%B1ol
They had their best ever season in 85-86 finishing 2nd in the top division.
For me the meaning behind the best player is (a) the one that is able to produce the best football at crucial times to win a game, (b) plays with skill and ability on and off the ball, and (C) produces moments that you are happy to watch over and over again and is not just about kicking a ball in triangles every 5-10 yards around people.
Messi leads the way in all 3 criteria and add to that his longevity I cannot see how it is a discussion.
Pele was the poster boy for football and to win 3 world cups is outstanding but the teams he played in were outstanding.
Maradonna is someone that won things on his own, and some of the things he could do just blows your mind.Interestingly he looked up to George Best who because of where he lived never got to play in a world cup and so is never spoken about in these conversations. But when Messi copied Maradonna's goal and then exceeded it on more than 1 occasion then we would have to say he is the best.
Ironically i do not like these conversations i just like seeing good players show not just their skills but their will to win because without that they do not get anywhere
If we talk about national teams, winning a world cup is definitely important. Now comparing individuals, it makes sense to me to use individual achievements and stats.
Yes
Maradona or messi? are you guys kidding? both !!!!!! the only thing you have to look is the human part and the records !!!! messi he is humble and a really nice person and hi gives people hope and dreams and that anything is possible
The Goat 🐐 completed football at the age of 35.
The Greatest Football Player Of All Times. 🐐
Champs:
U-20 WC 2005
Olympic Gold Medal 2008
Copa America 2021
Finalissima 2022
World Cup 2022
⭐⭐⭐
My Goat Lionel Messi.
Halaand and Mbappe will never reach the heights of Ronaldo and Messi. Yes those strikers will score goals, and a lot of them. However, Messi and Ronaldo have done transcends all the goals they scored. Especially Messi, he completely eclipsed Maradona and Pele. When people talk about Messi they compare him with Maradona or Pele, but when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. There is a level, that I think neither Mbappe or Halaand will ever reach.
love the point about them occupying different ideological spaces. CR7 stands for excellence through sheer hardwork determination while messi is that unquantifiable thing aka genius. both have a sprinkle of both but broadly speaking that's what they represent. I'll always give the nod toward genius.
FOR ME MESSI IS NR 1 THE GOAT THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER EVER. WC DON'T MATTER HE TOOK THEM 2 THE FINALS 2 TIMES. BUT PEAK PRIME YEARS MESSI AND RONALDINHO IS THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN AND ENJOYED GENUINELY BUT THE LONGEVITY MESSI🐐⚽️❤️💯🪄😍🥰🗣📽📽 HAS PROVEN IS JUST UNMATCHED SO HE TAKES IT BY FAR HE GOT IT ALL.
I don't mean to offend anybody but a majority of Ronaldo fans are children who idolize Ronaldo because of his physical traits and charisma while matured adults can clearly see how unmatched Messi is at the pitch
You need to ask a wide age of people that are not only of today's generation
But people from different past era's that watched other great players when they played
It'll boil down to genarational exposure & preference
Messi was so far ahead of everyone even before the World Cup IMO, but now it should not even be debated.
to those who play football knows Messi is clearly miles ahead of Cristiano, there was never a debate
During their prime, I believe DM is better. However, over the whole career, I think LM is better due to his longevity.
Leo scored 91 goals in his prime
Messi didn't need the World Cup to be the Greatest Of All Times, he already was.
He needed it to prove to the rest of the argentinian he could be as great as Maradona was, because at the end, Messi is argentinian, and for an argentinian all that matters is to be viewed as a winner for your country.
Had not Messi won the ultimate trophy, he would have retired being the biggest athlete that has ever walked this world BUT not in Argentina. He would have lived his life under the shadow of Diego.
Now Lio can say he is as great as Diego ever was, and argentinian people finally have surrended to him.
He is the best player in the planet now, AND in Argentina too.
The by far the Greatest player of all times.. Lionel Messi 🐐
He did it !!
In 1986 final Maradona didn't score, but he did provide assist for the 3rd goal and Argentina beat west Germany 3-2.
messi is the greatest, ever. but me saying that, doesn't take away from cr7's greatness. and I think people should understand that. you can love one without having to hate the other. gracias a dios, por Messi 🙏🏼
Ok winning a trophy doesn't make you a better player. But being the best player in the worlds best team has to give you some kudos.
On top of everything else the answer has to be objectively yes.
It's all subjective though. Football is entertainment snd produces emotional responses. A wolves fan might say steve bull is the greatest player that ever lived and to them that would be 100% correct. But it's an enjoyable discussion.
I really struggle to see why people cannot answer this easily. He was for about 12-13 the best dribbler, passer and finisher. If a player is the best at one of these, they are considered great. Anyone in doubt, go back and watch messi from aged 17-30. There is a reason he has over 380 MOTM award 😂😂😂😂😂 insane
Probably the wheels are turning for Messi. Messi had to leave last world cup with near humiliation. It is his time now. His team wants to give the WC gift to him. He is the best player by far.
You cant say that a team that contained Ruggeri Passarella Burruchaga Valdano Borghi is inferior to the 22 wc squad
He isn't. Pelé is and no one will ever be able to take that post. It simply can't be done. Every single thing any modern footballer does, Pelé already did, and many of them he came up with. 3 world cups. Messi is amazing but number 2 at best.
Cristiano Ronaldo is the greatest human footballer of all time. Messi and Maradona are from another planet.
Ronaldo is literally better.
@@ElDragow but he isn’t, open your eyes . Ronaldo is useless without a goal
Prove it
@@ElDragow Such a ridiculous fanboy opinion, you like all Ronaldo cheerleaders clearly haven’t watched Messi’s career.
“Other than Messi the Argentina team is high end average”!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Di Maria is the most underrated player of all time! He is the invisible hero of Argentina 🥹
cristiano embodies the "never giving up" & "work hard" mentally and ideologies which makes him one of the best in world to regular joe's because they have someone to look up to who neither had the talent but sheer tenacity to become the best, so to them they can also be the best if they work as hard. i think that's why nike signed him because their ideologies go hand in hand where as with messi it's a different story, the guy is just born with this talent even with challenges he faced growing up, nothing would've stopped him from performing at the level he does. he's just an angel given to us to make football look so easy while performing at the most high. so the debate is always going to be pulled to different directions because of that but for me watching messi always brought joy and amazement & that's why he is the GOAT & which cristiano i can always expect things and i would just appreciate him for that
86 Argentina was better than this team. The team was set up to get the best out of Maradona. But those very good players, man.
Ronaldo and Messi for me are the undisputed goats. I respect Maradona and Pele, but i honestly think anyone with a footballing brain knows Ronaldo and Messi are the 2 goats. And at that point it's subjective in my opinion how you rank them. Totally different players, totally different styles, totally different journeys.
For me Ronaldo is number 1 and messi is number 2. But Maybe saying Ronaldo is 1.a and Messi is 1.b would be more correct i guess, because thy stand at the top together
You’re just completely wrong. How can a service player like Ronaldo be better than someone that’s more complete at attacking? Football is about trophies goals and assists in which Messi is better at in every way. The only reason why ronaldo had a few more goals is because he has 148 games extra played. Additionally, just watch how Messi plays regularly dribbling past 4 players at a time Ronaldo has not done that. You’re delusional. Messi is in a different stratosphere. Messi is individually the best player to step on the pitch and with 7 Ballon Dors to back it up.
Messi is better at passing shooting dribbling Vision freekicks almost everything except Headers! How is CR7 a better football player thats just illogical
@@mehyeah2931 let's appreciate the opinion guys, for HIM, ronaldo the goat, but for FOOTBALL, messi is clear
It's just the way he to do it.
1) Messi
2) Pele
3) Maradona
My personal top 3.
If Messi was English, he would have been declared the best ever 5 years back.
These debates are useless.
Ha! If Messi was English, he would be Sir Lionel Messi by now.
He was declared the best ever in 2011…
Messi is the best ever ... He deserves to be called that...35 yrs old carrying his team to a final in 2022 is incredible.
YES
Messi vs Ronaldo debate had always bored me.
We’ve been blessed to watch two of the greatest footballers to ever kick a ball - and media wants to do is pick a loser.
Messi. End of story.
For me there is no one who is the greatest player of All time yet. Because I view it as impossible. There are many legends and one of the best player of all time that I agreed on, but only one? For me the player must achieve many things and win a lot of competition. Also be protagonist in all. And Messi is now close to become the best player of all time. I never seen this good since 2009 with his Barcelona. Also there is no xavi or iniesta to help. It takes time to come up in the top or be there in a long time. Wins he the World Cup, he will be the best player of all time in my eye
Argentina has had a lot of favourable calls go their way this WC, IMO. Could you guys take a look into this? would be interesting to see IMO.
86 Argentina is not an inferior side at all in comparison to Messi 2022
When u have a striker called bastituta
I was too young to see Pele or Maradona but my favourite ever players to watch were R9, Ronaldinho and Zidane.
1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Maradonna
4. CR7
5. Cruyf
6.R9
7.Zidane
8.Ronaldinho
9. Franz Beckenbeur
10. George Best
Yes anymore questions about him?
Yes easily
yes
YES !!!!
People claim Ronaldo is the best athlete because he's 6'2" with muscles. He played an exciting brand of football for a small amount of time and then became a poacher. Messi has a great physique and is a strong as a bull and has never changed his style of play. He's still exciting at the age of 35 but Ronaldo has become a goalscorer. Tell me Messi isn't the best athlete as well.
Maradona is the most talented ever. Messi is the best ever, CR7 is the greatest athlete to ever play football. That's how it works in my head anyway
Messi more talented
Because Ronaldo is 6'2" with muscles, he's deemed the best athlete when Messi is smaller but has a great physique and has played the same way his whole career. Ronaldo was a very exciting player for a very small period of time and then became a poacher. I think that shows who the better athlete is. Also youtube Messi headers and tell me he can't jump/header.
@@juvenilegolden agree. It's just a height difference. Many players that have commented they're surprised at how friggin strong Messi is. His legs are solid