Surging is when the spring absorbs shock and undergoes torsion which is transmitted as a shock wave or surge wave. The time it takes for the shock wave to move along the spring wire and back is called surge time. The surge time and speed can be calculated and designed. Springs have a high and low point where surge occurs. We try to design this to be really low and really high so there is not much time spent in that rpm zone. When a spring hits that low zone rpm and stays there for a sustained amount of time, surge will happen if the shockwave cycles back on itself. This can be called resonance and harmonics but we call it surge because we calculate the amount of time the shock wave or surge wave moves up and down the spring wire. It’s all Steve’s fault that he’s having problems 😂 - Nolan!
@@txsailor57 Millennium Bridge almost collapsed. When it opened people subconsciously started walking in union which caused it to start waying side to side. If they hadn't closed it down it could have collapsed. To fix it they added shock absorbers to mute the side to side sway.
Its great to see a comment from the guy who actually designed the spring and has scientifically studied the phenomenon. Thanks for explaining what's really happening. It adds another level of understanding to the generality of "harmonics"
Back in the ‘60s we used flat-wound dampers inside the main spring. The 427 Ford FE race engines even had a “rev kit” which was mini valve springs on the pushrods. Rev limit was 7,200 rpm & lift was relatively modest compared to today. A real bear to work on. In the early 2000s beehive springs seemed to fix spring problems on the hot engines of the day. Now, one inch lift and 9,000 rpm are common and the drag & drive crowd can get thru a whole week without breaking a spring. Amazing. I never would have believed that possible when I started with Ford Engine Engineering in 1965.
Hey Steven can you give me a tip? My 351C was built during the 90's with a 2500-6500 rev range and hyd roller retrofit cam, straight spring with a damper. 525 lift. Would this benefit from beehive springs especially as it has sat for 16 years in one place? One guy said that the spring would not fatigue from being compressed for 16 years. Makes me wonder
When I worked for GM Powertrain, we had engines set up without pistons and rods and had a custom machined straight shaft as a dummy crankshaft. It was driven by a fairly large sized electric motor off the flywheel end, and we ran them at all rpm's it was expected to see. It's sole purpose was for valvetrain development/durability, and we would discover every engine combo's "not happy" speed range/window, then address the issues as needed. We used high speed cameras to visually capture problems too. Very interesting stuff.
Thats wild, even the electric motors usually have more than 1 frequency that creates excess vibration/harmonics out the shafts. Happens all the time on centrifugal or screw compressors where we have to skip that frequency especially on air cooled screw compressors as they crack 3” copper discharge piping so wonder how they eliminated that frequency resonance from transferring into the crankshaft?
Steve, I know some builders Mitch Pullen of Pullen Spec Engines actually spec the spring so it is almost in coil bind at full lift. The thought is that when the coils are close to each other, the coils will touch lightly as they resonate and dampen themselves. Significantly reducing the resonance, and there for heat being generated in the spring. Its used on some drifting engines, as they flutter the coil hard with all the rev limiter. He talked about it on a HP Academy podcast. Maybe something to try on one of your engines.
They usually start fluttering when the valve is closed and spring is at installed height . That’s where the issue is it sits at installed height 7 times longer than full lift . Most engine builders set around 50 thousandths from coil bind at full lift so not sure how much of a difference it would make to close that any more .
Perhaps you can get somebody interested in making a big dual conical spring setup. Conicals eliminate a lot of frequency issues because their rates are constantly changing so they are way more stable over a broader operating frequency.
That’s why you keep varying rpm on boat diesels. All springs are slightly different and thus oscilllate within an rpm window. The high rpm oscillation of the springs is usually beyond what the Diesel can turn. The lower window can be anywhere-especially on engines that ran for a while. High lift-hard ramping-high rpm cams on pushrod engines need a lot more attention - they are extremely hard on springs. It’s less of a problem to control with cast iron heads than alu heads but not by much. Beehive- and helper springs are one way to try to avoid unwanted oscillation and early onset fatigue.
Building a race motor, 4000hp very cool!! Building a street motor, 1000hp. Super cool!! Building one that can do both, Very difficult!! Drag and drive car at this level is so difficult!!! Exactly why I love SME.
For the floor build standoffs and put a "false floor in to cover it all and combine with the tranny tunnel. A few fastners and it lifts off and Val wont have yo watch where she puts her feet.
"this isnt some stock LS spring...... okay"- Steve Morris the fact that you have to remind the few people watching that lack common sense ,without them we would never get the opportunity to hear such great quotes , so my thanks goes to all of the less fortunate ones, so least there is something positive your lack of common sense produces..............great video steve .
wonderin does the turbo placement affect air flow since the intake sides are that close together? I guess not when looking at the horsepower numbers :D
Maybe it's just the Ford guy in me, but all this talk about valve springs makes me want to see a DOHC smx. I dont think it would really change anything as the valve events would be the same color and flavor, and it wouldn't fit under the hood of anything, but think of the coolness factor.
I broke a spring in my f150 the other day just rolling out of the gas station low rpm 2nd gear, I got lucky there was enough spring to keep the retainers/keepers in and not slam valve into piston. only had like 1500 feet to home so i scanned it and saw #1 was the issue then pulled valve cover to see it. $32 later it was fixed, yes i should have done em all but this is a 1999 f150 4.2 v6 with 345000 miles on it lol.
With cooper split cage ceramic coating roller bearings from sfk cooper spilt cage 50mm 60 mm for camshaft or crank shaft 75mm 3 inches or 100 mm 4 inches it rolls better no more spun bearings let it roll not weld yup 💯
Basically what you are saying is youll need to order a complete extra set of springs and keep them on hand in case you come across this issue again. Lol also, its always a ground issue with wiring. Lol
I realized today that Steve doesn’t use video sponsors. I’ve become so used to seeing (and skipping through) the in video sponsor spots that it’s become normal. Thanks Steve and SME for just plain being informative.
@@mjay6245 I'm talking about people skipping past advisors. Why do you think he does these RUclips videos? He makes money off the monetization or he gets companies to pay him. It's not hard to understand. Steve doesn't get paid from RUclips when people skip past the advertisers built into the videos.
@Chris_Harris Theft implies something was unwillingly taken. Skippable ads are optional, as implied by the name, therefore there cannot be theft of anything. So I ask again, what the hell are you talking about?
Steve, didn't you say a couple videos back that there was going to be no more racing without a transmission tunnel being installed? You know extremely hot high pressure transmission fluid does not do a body good also.Highly flammable 🔥
As an engineer that's called a resonance frequency every system on earth has it. And harmonics comes in to play also. Only way to combat it is stay away from it or dampen it.
I'm not sure what getting it wet will do to help. In my reading on the subject, apparently progressive wound and beehive springs help significantly by creating a spring that has more than one resonance frequency over its length. Damping is also an interesting idea - I wonder if an elastomer coating of some sort can survive the environment. Would be super neat to be able to play with tis experimentally with the same system mass and lift profile as his actual engine and watch it all on the high speed with various springs and coatings!
The harmonics come into play like that because of the time difference between slamming the valve shut and next opening at low rpm where the spring is trying to release the stored energy. This energy reflects off the valve cup and back to the base several times before the valve opens in the opposite direction again. At high rpm the spring may not have the time between each direction change to create the harmonics that accumulates in the centre of the spring where its unsupported- both top and bottom of the springs are supported so the centre portion is free to have vertical and lateral movement and allows the harmonics to build up.... Kind of like the "bath tub " effect where the water slams into one side and reflects back while the middle section is still trying to get to the end.....
@@halfwaydecentvehiclesI think it’s the actual frequency of the springs being driven that causes it so it’s not a problem that an isolated would fix. Could be mistaken but it appears to be something that WILL happen at that prolonged rpm irregardless of anything else.
Tom Bailey uses the overdrive unit and his rpm is likley just out of the IRF (inherent resonant frequency) of the spring. Yours and cleetus not so mutch. A gearing change raising the the rpm by a few hundred will likley resolve this
Servicing an Australian Pro Stock (400ci) motor in the pits on a cool winters afternoon in QLD and we got the rocker covers off ready to start checking seat pressure and lash and one of the springs caught some cool air and broke. The noise it made was quite loud and the few of us who heard it couldn't believe that it would break in the open air, as the engines don't get very hot when they're running to have a thermal shock with the rocker covers off! Another way to break a spring!
this could just be me being weird, but i think being able to see the transmission and being able to monitor the second it starts leaking is extremely useful. 1/8” lexan weighs .75lb/ft² and 20 gauge sheet steel(which id assume would be what a trans tunnel would be made of) weighs 1.5lb/ft². you’d be saving about .75lbs/ft² and would have one of the most unique trans tunnels in the game while also still having it protect you. weld in some zeus bolt tabs so you can get in easier and it will still be easily serviceable
My brain says if one spring was that unhappy,,,, time to change them all before the next outing!!! I think they all have had the bad resonance put on them but maybe not enough for a failure,,,,YET!
That's not necessarily true. Depending on what steps are taken during manufacturing each spring may have its own individual resonant frequency or behavior. I asked Steve for some input as a fellow machinist on how they are made. Now I'm not going to be able to go to sleep. I'll be thinking about spring solutions non stop now
Crazy. Never thought upgraded springs would surge at low rpm. Thought it was mostly an issue at high rpm. I get that you lose control of the valve so it might hit the piston but Don t see how surge actually causes the spring to break.
All this time I've been getting mad at people who can't maintain a constant speed on the highway and the whole time they were probably just trying to save their valve springs.
Everything has a frequency. Even you, Steve. Some things don't like certain frequencies, and that's when harmonics sneak in and destroy a component just like an ex-wife playing the long game.
Thanks for the comprehensive update Steve. I imagine you have a lot of engines that are waiting on hard to get parts. That Worldwide COVID shutdown is still affecting many Industries.
On many small aircraft, they have placard that will say do not operate between 1400 and 1600 rpm, and different engines have different sweet spots, now I believe the issue is harmonics at a frequency that just damages parts.. not necessarily valve springs.. point is, everything has frequency’s it’s not happy with
Been a member for as long as I can remember. The information about the spring is why I'm a subscriber and have more merch than I need. Thank you for everything you do.
VERY INTERESTING! My NA LS423 has been breaking valve springs at low RPM since Sick Week 2023. .800 lift, 8200 shift point and never broke a spring going down the track. I get a thousand miles on a set of springs during a Drag and Drive and after that, they randomly start breaking at low (cruise) RPM only. I've even had them break while sitting in the shop, without the engine running!
Great info on valve springs. Couldn't find any reason to break valve springs in my daily driver. After the fourth one I changed them all and so far so good. Thanks for at least giving me a possible reason for the breakage.
Here's some fun data I was a mechanic for 60 years back in 66 all early production Oldsmobile toronados had valve springs that broke it was probably a hardening problem or how they were treated or whatever but they were all recalled I replaced pretty many of those Springs on those early production 66 tornadoes just thought I'd mention it I'm pretty sure the original ones had a yellow stripe and a replacement for purple purple ones never broke that's interesting about Springs thanks for the education
As a 73 year old car person I was a Ford Senior Master Tech in dealerships drag race and always enjoyed cars. But I have never been a fan of cruise control never used it myself. Always drove on long trips with my foot and seat of pants and listening to motor.
I nearly got a fail when taking my drivers exam, the inspector accused me of using cruise control during the test which is an automatic fail. I had to prove to her that I didn't by repeating it with my hands away from the buttons on the steering wheel. 🙄
Low RPM spring surge... who would have thought it! There is an engine R&D place that has an electric motor that will spin engines up to 10,000 RPMs so you can put the whole engine together, but leave the Pistons and rods out and using high-speed camera and or some type of laser measuring control to watch the valves at high speeds without the interference of Pistons or rods getting in the way. That's just one of the things they do..
Many years ago i was sent to a class , i think it was IRD vibration analyst .. There they explained how to test equipment ect on vibration analyst.. The steam turbine has a critical rpm that the vibration mentioned was a place to avoid spending much time at . During cold start ups and rotor warming for instance... I watched videos where the high speed cameras were used to capture the springs and valve train on a spin train to help prevent as much as possible damage as you described.... Vibration another learning experience.. Especially on idle or stand by equipment not being used but exposed the vibration on another unit ..
Curious if we could add some sort of vibrational dampener. Seems like it sort of hits a resonant frequency, like sound breaking a wine glass. Get a squishy, but durable thing in there to absorb the unnecessary vibration, maybe that'd help. Just a thought.
Back in my younger days this was under "chaos theory" small waves sometimes combine into mega waves, have you ever sat down a cup on the table and a random blast of coffee jumps a foot out of the cup straight up. Same basic thing. Its resonance like they said but it has a degree of randomness which makes it a mothertrucker to diagnose.
Well its gonna most likely just show up as a misfire but I guess yea your egt's will go down on affected cylinder as would the O2 sensor on affected bank but mostly as a misfire.
Steve years ago I was in plant maintenance, one of the guys in our group, signed up for a vibration course which led to a job. DuPont was very interested in this field. What he learned is to much for me, but he showed me that everything vibrates at different frequencies, he checked thousands of electrical motors. Changing the speed or the mounting, to put the bearings out of the danger zone. That took place in the late 90s . Everything vibrate at different frequencies and knowing where a certain bearing danger zone. Sorry not much but you are on the right path…
Hey Steve you could put some hot glue on that cable to help keep it from coming out again it's easy enough to remove if you need it apart but would keep vibration or accidental kicking from knocking it out. Just a thought, love that wagon👍
Another reason for OHC. Plus 4 valve heads. With DOHC. Perfect example, is stock block coyote, snot rocket. Sick week winner. Pushrod motors are awesome!! OHC motors even better!!!
Hey Steve, not sure but I think I might have found why that improperly connected (electrical) cable issue arose (though it must have been a bit loose from the start). When you get a chance watch your video (The Wagon CRUSHED the Competition on our First Race Back!) from 10:23 to 10:30. Remember that transmission fluid leak? Love your videos.. Subd & liked.
You talk about building a kick panel to protect the 😅. How about a transmission tunnel? You know you want one. You already mentioned it.😊 As I wrote this, you started talking about it😅
To see a similar affect on a large scale...search for videos on the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse. The bridge collapsed due harmonics created by wind hitting the bridge at just the right speed.
Big dog valve spring doesn’t like to putt putt like Ms. Daisy… Lol. Gets into a spot where it’s bouncing off itself or oscillating you could say where it probably gets insanely hot/weak whatever, until it can’t take it anymore… Makes sense… Think of a boat where it runs at wide open throttle at 4,500 rpm making 1,100 hp on pump gas all day long… and doesn’t break any valve springs. Does the blower belt help? Number one, they're half or 1/4 the spring yours are, number 2 it’s in a different range of operation and therefore how it functions and what it will tolerate are different… Springs are black magic how they function, and last… lol
Disclaimer: I dont claim, to know what I'm talking about. Are the two turbos fighting each other, for the available air? Looking at how close, they're together. Seems to me, the two turbos are super vacuums, pulling against each other. I understand, this just mockup, but still. Would this affect the power level, on the dyno?
Build a trans cover, no excuses. Drag racing rules are a joke,, cars are iron junkies but the trans are not covered. As a road racer I have been hassled about boots [and yes it has one] on the gearlever. Of my otherwise fully covered manual trans which is not a fire hazard. Valve springs? At those lifts and rpm maybe you should be investigating pnuematic springs as used in F1 and endurance racing engines. As a matter of interest all the springs I have used in 7500 rpm engines have flat wound dampers. Will that resolve any thing? Harmonics? Many engines have a dangerous rpm, you can either run under it [usually slow] or over it and usually be ok. Without breaking crank. Damper technology helps these days.. Other engines just simply shake them selves to pieces shaking off flywheels and balancers plus every other bolt in the engine. The reason a 400Chev is a dog for performance
Steve, have you ever tested your specific camshat and valvetrain with a spintron? A while back, I watched some videos of how a spintron can be used to see exactly what's happening with the valvetrain at the entire rpm range. You might be surprised at what's happening (or not). Maybe you would at least know the exact rpm(s) where you have problems.
I know going from a 1.5 to a 1.6 rocker will shatter all the damper springs on an Edelbrock cam and valve spring set on an old small block Chevy.😂 I was a run the matched kit from one manufacturer guy. Now I'm a buy a cam and lifters from one company and springs from a spring specialist.
I have a question can you pick up any internal physical damage such as a valve spring or a lifter would that show up on logs with a Holley and EGT sensors in the headers? Is the only way to check by pulling the valve covers? Probably dumb question but would appreciate someone’s knowledge.
I don’t think you can pick up “internal physical damage” on logs but it can and did tell Steve that he had an issue in one cylinder (cooler EGT than the others). Steve then tracked that down to the broken spring for that cylinder.
Since the valve spring and retainer stay in place damage is unlikely, like Steve showed is yesterday’s video. Exhaust gas temperature would detect it, more so if each cylinder was monitored. The temperature would be lower since the fuel wouldn’t burn completely. A leak down test would diagnose it since the valve wouldn’t seat properly. Air would be heard escaping through the intake manifold it the intake valve spring is broken or through the exhaust pipe if the exhaust valve spring is broken. The engine wouldn’t sound right because of the incomplete combustion.
The nerds of the world thank Steve and Nolan for following up and explaining the cause of the spring breakage. Also the interesting fact about NASCAR and this issue. Once again I learned something new in a SM video.
Surging is when the spring absorbs shock and undergoes torsion which is transmitted as a shock wave or surge wave. The time it takes for the shock wave to move along the spring wire and back is called surge time. The surge time and speed can be calculated and designed. Springs have a high and low point where surge occurs. We try to design this to be really low and really high so there is not much time spent in that rpm zone.
When a spring hits that low zone rpm and stays there for a sustained amount of time, surge will happen if the shockwave cycles back on itself. This can be called resonance and harmonics but we call it surge because we calculate the amount of time the shock wave or surge wave moves up and down the spring wire.
It’s all Steve’s fault that he’s having problems 😂 - Nolan!
Isn't there a case where traffic travelling at a certain speed brought down a bridge due to a similar effect?
@@txsailor57 yeah. Constructive interference.
@@txsailor57 Millennium Bridge almost collapsed. When it opened people subconsciously started walking in union which caused it to start waying side to side. If they hadn't closed it down it could have collapsed. To fix it they added shock absorbers to mute the side to side sway.
Thanks for the explain-O!
Its great to see a comment from the guy who actually designed the spring and has scientifically studied the phenomenon. Thanks for explaining what's really happening. It adds another level of understanding to the generality of "harmonics"
Back in the ‘60s we used flat-wound dampers inside the main spring.
The 427 Ford FE race engines even had a “rev kit” which was mini valve springs on the pushrods. Rev limit was 7,200 rpm & lift was relatively modest compared to today. A real bear to work on.
In the early 2000s beehive springs seemed to fix spring problems on the hot engines of the day. Now, one inch lift and 9,000 rpm are common and the drag & drive crowd can get thru a whole week without breaking a spring. Amazing. I never would have believed that possible when I started with Ford Engine Engineering in 1965.
Hey Steven can you give me a tip? My 351C was built during the 90's with a 2500-6500 rev range and hyd roller retrofit cam, straight spring with a damper. 525 lift. Would this benefit from beehive springs especially as it has sat for 16 years in one place? One guy said that the spring would not fatigue from being compressed for 16 years. Makes me wonder
When I worked for GM Powertrain, we had engines set up without pistons and rods and had a custom machined straight shaft as a dummy crankshaft. It was driven by a fairly large sized electric motor off the flywheel end, and we ran them at all rpm's it was expected to see. It's sole purpose was for valvetrain development/durability, and we would discover every engine combo's "not happy" speed range/window, then address the issues as needed. We used high speed cameras to visually capture problems too. Very interesting stuff.
Thats wild, even the electric motors usually have more than 1 frequency that creates excess vibration/harmonics out the shafts. Happens all the time on centrifugal or screw compressors where we have to skip that frequency especially on air cooled screw compressors as they crack 3” copper discharge piping so wonder how they eliminated that frequency resonance from transferring into the crankshaft?
thats called a Spintron.
Steve, I know some builders Mitch Pullen of Pullen Spec Engines actually spec the spring so it is almost in coil bind at full lift. The thought is that when the coils are close to each other, the coils will touch lightly as they resonate and dampen themselves. Significantly reducing the resonance, and there for heat being generated in the spring. Its used on some drifting engines, as they flutter the coil hard with all the rev limiter. He talked about it on a HP Academy podcast. Maybe something to try on one of your engines.
They usually start fluttering when the valve is closed and spring is at installed height . That’s where the issue is it sits at installed height 7 times longer than full lift . Most engine builders set around 50 thousandths from coil bind at full lift so not sure how much of a difference it would make to close that any more .
Great tech. This is why I watch this channel.
19:25 prefect engine package for my 1968 Chevelle she would make any day a good day
Ive always been surprised by springs, ring and pinions, u joints and clutches! When cars are making big power
It would be interesting to film a few different sets of springs at different rpms with a high speed camera
You should have been a teacher as you have a great way of explaining things. Thank you. Big fan of your shop and crew. Living the dream ❤
I've never ran into this, but the engines I own & work on are low HP & rpm compared to you're or NASCAR engines. Great info!
Incase you're not aware, the footage with the Noonan block on the dyno was in a previous video
Perhaps you can get somebody interested in making a big dual conical spring setup. Conicals eliminate a lot of frequency issues because their rates are constantly changing so they are way more stable over a broader operating frequency.
That’s why you keep varying rpm on boat diesels. All springs are slightly different and thus oscilllate within an rpm window. The high rpm oscillation of the springs is usually beyond what the Diesel can turn. The lower window can be anywhere-especially on engines that ran for a while. High lift-hard ramping-high rpm cams on pushrod engines need a lot more attention - they are extremely hard on springs. It’s less of a problem to control with cast iron heads than alu heads but not by much. Beehive- and helper springs are one way to try to avoid unwanted oscillation and early onset fatigue.
To quote a legend, “everyday is a school day”. Thanks Steve
I wonder if a beehive style spring could work in an application for boost? The way a beehive collapses is different.
Building a race motor, 4000hp very cool!!
Building a street motor, 1000hp. Super cool!!
Building one that can do both,
Very difficult!!
Drag and drive car at this level is so difficult!!!
Exactly why I love SME.
That is sick power out of 388 cubes
I bet the natural frequency of the spring matches that RPM causing the spring to resonate unbeknownst to the crew - causing failure.
Steve... chicken-💪🏻
Kyle Morris the Starter Killer. I’ve heard of that guy.
critical speed/motion
I call that an oops moment
Cleetus is going to call you chicken wrist now. Lol
For the floor build standoffs and put a "false floor in to cover it all and combine with the tranny tunnel. A few fastners and it lifts off and Val wont have yo watch where she puts her feet.
"this isnt some stock LS spring...... okay"- Steve Morris the fact that you have to remind the few people watching that lack common sense ,without them we would never get the opportunity to hear such great quotes , so my thanks goes to all of the less fortunate ones, so least there is something positive your lack of common sense produces..............great video steve .
I wonder if a damper would help ??
I know it helps in stock applications.
Time 042
Well, I was rolling down the road in some cold blue steel
I had a blues man on the back and a beautician at the wheel
wonderin does the turbo placement affect air flow since the intake sides are that close together? I guess not when looking at the horsepower numbers :D
Maybe it's just the Ford guy in me, but all this talk about valve springs makes me want to see a DOHC smx. I dont think it would really change anything as the valve events would be the same color and flavor, and it wouldn't fit under the hood of anything, but think of the coolness factor.
I broke a spring in my f150 the other day just rolling out of the gas station low rpm 2nd gear, I got lucky there was enough spring to keep the retainers/keepers in and not slam valve into piston. only had like 1500 feet to home so i scanned it and saw #1 was the issue then pulled valve cover to see it. $32 later it was fixed, yes i should have done em all but this is a 1999 f150 4.2 v6 with 345000 miles on it lol.
If he's only running a single turbo how much boost we he have to push to match the dyno numbers with twins
Did those cars have different lifters?
Ive always been curious if you lose power with the turbos facing each other due to the possibility that they are fighting each other for air
I was thinking the same thing. My thought is yes.
Who is Dewey fussing at😻
All very interesting the Dyno pulls but isn’t it a waste of time as both the turbo and management systems are going to be totally different ?
I would expect the same fuel/timing and boost levels to be very similar.
With cooper split cage ceramic coating roller bearings from sfk cooper spilt cage 50mm 60 mm for camshaft or crank shaft 75mm 3 inches or 100 mm 4 inches it rolls better no more spun bearings let it roll not weld yup 💯
If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration. -Nikola Tesla
The connector problem was due to the tire shake during the testing.
Indy 500 cars change their valve springs ever race i read somewhere
Basically what you are saying is youll need to order a complete extra set of springs and keep them on hand in case you come across this issue again. Lol also, its always a ground issue with wiring. Lol
I realized today that Steve doesn’t use video sponsors. I’ve become so used to seeing (and skipping through) the in video sponsor spots that it’s become normal.
Thanks Steve and SME for just plain being informative.
But he DOES have commercials...so what's the difference?
You just admitted to watching Steve's videos for free as in unlike the rest of us, you're not paying for his effort/time.
Great job, thief.
@Chris_Harris What are you talking about lmao?
@@mjay6245 I'm talking about people skipping past advisors. Why do you think he does these RUclips videos? He makes money off the monetization or he gets companies to pay him.
It's not hard to understand. Steve doesn't get paid from RUclips when people skip past the advertisers built into the videos.
@Chris_Harris Theft implies something was unwillingly taken.
Skippable ads are optional, as implied by the name, therefore there cannot be theft of anything.
So I ask again, what the hell are you talking about?
Steve, didn't you say a couple videos back that there was going to be no more racing without a transmission tunnel being installed? You know extremely hot high pressure transmission fluid does not do a body good also.Highly flammable 🔥
You did not watch the whole video
Safety police on patrol .
As an engineer that's called a resonance frequency every system on earth has it. And harmonics comes in to play also. Only way to combat it is stay away from it or dampen it.
Mine always messes up when my wife pulls in the driveway and I'm suckin beers on the patio
Just like I used to program VFD’s to skip a certain frequency.
Wondering with practice how fast springs could be flipped for racing then the drive, is that against the rules?
Ain’t Design of the Devine an Education in each & every scenario…!
Harmonic’s & frequencies is key
I'm not sure what getting it wet will do to help.
In my reading on the subject, apparently progressive wound and beehive springs help significantly by creating a spring that has more than one resonance frequency over its length. Damping is also an interesting idea - I wonder if an elastomer coating of some sort can survive the environment.
Would be super neat to be able to play with tis experimentally with the same system mass and lift profile as his actual engine and watch it all on the high speed with various springs and coatings!
The harmonics come into play like that because of the time difference between slamming the valve shut and next opening at low rpm where the spring is trying to release the stored energy. This energy reflects off the valve cup and back to the base several times before the valve opens in the opposite direction again.
At high rpm the spring may not have the time between each direction change to create the harmonics that accumulates in the centre of the spring where its unsupported- both top and bottom of the springs are supported so the centre portion is free to have vertical and lateral movement and allows the harmonics to build up....
Kind of like the "bath tub " effect where the water slams into one side and reflects back while the middle section is still trying to get to the end.....
Resonance frequency...
Correct. Like a tuning fork.
Rubber washer under springs be an isolated?
@@halfwaydecentvehiclesI think it’s the actual frequency of the springs being driven that causes it so it’s not a problem that an isolated would fix. Could be mistaken but it appears to be something that WILL happen at that prolonged rpm irregardless of anything else.
Tom Bailey uses the overdrive unit and his rpm is likley just out of the IRF (inherent resonant frequency) of the spring. Yours and cleetus not so mutch. A gearing change raising the the rpm by a few hundred will likley resolve this
Harmonics.
Servicing an Australian Pro Stock (400ci) motor in the pits on a cool winters afternoon in QLD and we got the rocker covers off ready to start checking seat pressure and lash and one of the springs caught some cool air and broke. The noise it made was quite loud and the few of us who heard it couldn't believe that it would break in the open air, as the engines don't get very hot when they're running to have a thermal shock with the rocker covers off! Another way to break a spring!
this could just be me being weird, but i think being able to see the transmission and being able to monitor the second it starts leaking is extremely useful. 1/8” lexan weighs .75lb/ft² and 20 gauge sheet steel(which id assume would be what a trans tunnel would be made of) weighs 1.5lb/ft². you’d be saving about .75lbs/ft² and would have one of the most unique trans tunnels in the game while also still having it protect you. weld in some zeus bolt tabs so you can get in easier and it will still be easily serviceable
Moral of the story on springs, keep it pinned to the floor!
Love the Alex Taylor poster inside your toolbox. 🤣
She's so pretty.
Not in that picture. Looks like it’s been creatively modified…
My brain says if one spring was that unhappy,,,, time to change them all before the next outing!!! I think they all have had the bad resonance put on them but maybe not enough for a failure,,,,YET!
That's not necessarily true. Depending on what steps are taken during manufacturing each spring may have its own individual resonant frequency or behavior. I asked Steve for some input as a fellow machinist on how they are made. Now I'm not going to be able to go to sleep. I'll be thinking about spring solutions non stop now
Crazy. Never thought upgraded springs would surge at low rpm. Thought it was mostly an issue at high rpm. I get that you lose control of the valve so it might hit the piston but Don t see how surge actually causes the spring to break.
@@lukk4273 Metal fatigue.
Why wait to find out mid-run…!
When Kyle brought him the tool he required, I expected all of Em’ to be swapped Out.
@@foghornleghorn8536
So the uncontrolled surging fatigues the material faster?
Probably the same reason leaf springs usually break when the trailer is empty.
All this time I've been getting mad at people who can't maintain a constant speed on the highway and the whole time they were probably just trying to save their valve springs.
🤣
😂
So that what my dad's been doing all this time
I'm amazed at how many people on the highway know this trick.
Tacoma Narrows bridge is a good google if you aren’t familiar
Galloping Gertie.
Everything has a frequency. Even you, Steve. Some things don't like certain frequencies, and that's when harmonics sneak in and destroy a component just like an ex-wife playing the long game.
Mr Tesla knew it…!
&
My Ex-Wife would also agree….!
I’ve been life Educated, I’d say.
Resonance
This is a fact.
@@jerryhatrick5860 It's probably something Newton said. I'm sure of it.
Love your style, it's like a burst of creativity in every video!
Thanks for the comprehensive update Steve. I imagine you have a lot of engines that are waiting on hard to get parts. That Worldwide COVID shutdown is still affecting many Industries.
On many small aircraft, they have placard that will say do not operate between 1400 and 1600 rpm, and different engines have different sweet spots, now I believe the issue is harmonics at a frequency that just damages parts.. not necessarily valve springs.. point is, everything has frequency’s it’s not happy with
Been a member for as long as I can remember. The information about the spring is why I'm a subscriber and have more merch than I need. Thank you for everything you do.
I'm a poor. You are more than welcome to send your unused/leftover merchandise to me. 😂
VERY INTERESTING! My NA LS423 has been breaking valve springs at low RPM since Sick Week 2023. .800 lift, 8200 shift point and never broke a spring going down the track. I get a thousand miles on a set of springs during a Drag and Drive and after that, they randomly start breaking at low (cruise) RPM only. I've even had them break while sitting in the shop, without the engine running!
The complexity of different components working together for a shared goal, is amazing.
I suspected it had to be a certain resonance within the valve train, but that valve footage with the Wuhbuhbuhbuhbuh cemented it. 😂
Fascinating.
Great info on valve springs. Couldn't find any reason to break valve springs in my daily driver. After the fourth one I changed them all and so far so good. Thanks for at least giving me a possible reason for the breakage.
Jamb up guy!! With all you have going on, never see you aggrevated or blowing your top! That's a unique person! Love your videos
He must have an outlet somewhere in life.
LMAO at Alex Taylor looking over your shoulder through your spring oscillation explanation…
Ain’t her and Nolan pretty tight?😜
That chick is so pretty.
Here's some fun data I was a mechanic for 60 years back in 66 all early production Oldsmobile toronados had valve springs that broke it was probably a hardening problem or how they were treated or whatever but they were all recalled I replaced pretty many of those Springs on those early production 66 tornadoes just thought I'd mention it I'm pretty sure the original ones had a yellow stripe and a replacement for purple purple ones never broke that's interesting about Springs thanks for the education
Known as resonance frequency. Everything has it.
What frequency do you resonate at? Mine is 42069gchz..........gigachadhertz 😂
@@darksu6947 probably in that neighborhood lol +-5
As a 73 year old car person I was a Ford Senior Master Tech in dealerships drag race and always enjoyed cars. But I have never been a fan of cruise control never used it myself. Always drove on long trips with my foot and seat of pants and listening to motor.
I nearly got a fail when taking my drivers exam, the inspector accused me of using cruise control during the test which is an automatic fail. I had to prove to her that I didn't by repeating it with my hands away from the buttons on the steering wheel. 🙄
Can’t break a Valve spring if I don’t start the engne
Low RPM spring surge... who would have thought it!
There is an engine R&D place that has an electric motor that will spin engines up to 10,000 RPMs so you can put the whole engine together, but leave the Pistons and rods out and using high-speed camera and or some type of laser measuring control to watch the valves at high speeds without the interference of Pistons or rods getting in the way. That's just one of the things they do..
Apparently Smokey Yunick invented that machine.
Spintron
Go get them Dewey😂!!!
Many years ago i was sent to a class , i think it was IRD vibration analyst .. There they explained how to test equipment ect on vibration analyst.. The steam turbine has a critical rpm that the vibration mentioned was a place to avoid spending much time at . During cold start ups and rotor warming for instance... I watched videos where the high speed cameras were used to capture the springs and valve train on a spin train to help prevent as much as possible damage as you described.... Vibration another learning experience.. Especially on idle or stand by equipment not being used but exposed the vibration on another unit ..
It seems like the closing ramp on the cam has a lot to do with the spring acting like that after closing.
what motor are you making for cleetes new car
He's not. Cleet has a different package being done.
Wait isnt that what that smaller spring in the middle of the big one is for? To help cancel out that surge?
I'd like to see a reply to your question. Standing by.
Sounds like harmonics/resonant frequency.
Curious if we could add some sort of vibrational dampener. Seems like it sort of hits a resonant frequency, like sound breaking a wine glass. Get a squishy, but durable thing in there to absorb the unnecessary vibration, maybe that'd help. Just a thought.
Back in my younger days this was under "chaos theory" small waves sometimes combine into mega waves, have you ever sat down a cup on the table and a random blast of coffee jumps a foot out of the cup straight up. Same basic thing. Its resonance like they said but it has a degree of randomness which makes it a mothertrucker to diagnose.
Well its gonna most likely just show up as a misfire but I guess yea your egt's will go down on affected cylinder as would the O2 sensor on affected bank but mostly as a misfire.
I've noticed springs breaking while idling around in a lot of different vehicles. I'm glad you're talking about this
race sleds all hate 8800 rpm
Valve Spring AFIB
Steve years ago I was in plant maintenance, one of the guys in our group, signed up for a vibration course which led to a job. DuPont was very interested in this field. What he learned is to much for me, but he showed me that everything vibrates at different frequencies, he checked thousands of electrical motors. Changing the speed or the mounting, to put the bearings out of the danger zone. That took place in the late 90s . Everything vibrate at different frequencies and knowing where a certain bearing danger zone.
Sorry not much but you are on the right path…
Resonant frequency is the fancy term for it.
Officer: mrMorris why 30mph @9000 rpm in town ??^%$?????
Steve: prevents breaking springs..😁
Officer:
Hey Steve you could put some hot glue on that cable to help keep it from coming out again it's easy enough to remove if you need it apart but would keep vibration or accidental kicking from knocking it out. Just a thought, love that wagon👍
Another reason for OHC.
Plus 4 valve heads. With DOHC.
Perfect example, is stock block coyote, snot rocket. Sick week winner.
Pushrod motors are awesome!! OHC motors even better!!!
Hey Steve, not sure but I think I might have found why that improperly connected (electrical) cable issue arose (though it must have been a bit loose from the start). When you get a chance watch your video (The Wagon CRUSHED the Competition on our First Race Back!) from 10:23 to 10:30. Remember that transmission fluid leak? Love your videos.. Subd & liked.
You talk about building a kick panel to protect the 😅. How about a transmission tunnel? You know you want one. You already mentioned it.😊
As I wrote this, you started talking about it😅
To see a similar affect on a large scale...search for videos on the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse. The bridge collapsed due harmonics created by wind hitting the bridge at just the right speed.
Crap...Why not use conical??? Proven to eliminate friction and harmonics and shit...js
Big dog valve spring doesn’t like to putt putt like Ms. Daisy… Lol.
Gets into a spot where it’s bouncing off itself or oscillating you could say where it probably gets insanely hot/weak whatever, until it can’t take it anymore…
Makes sense…
Think of a boat where it runs at wide open throttle at 4,500 rpm making 1,100 hp on pump gas all day long… and doesn’t break any valve springs. Does the blower belt help?
Number one, they're half or 1/4 the spring yours are, number 2 it’s in a different range of operation and therefore how it functions and what it will tolerate are different…
Springs are black magic how they function, and last… lol
Disclaimer: I dont claim, to know what I'm talking about. Are the two turbos fighting each other, for the available air? Looking at how close, they're together. Seems to me, the two turbos are super vacuums, pulling against each other. I understand, this just mockup, but still. Would this affect the power level, on the dyno?
Sorry, but there is way too much crap going on there. We you need an electrical engineer on your drag car...it's over
Pneumatic valve springs? Thats what they use in motogp, except for ducati.. desmodromic in their stables ;)
Build a trans cover, no excuses. Drag racing rules are a joke,, cars are iron junkies but the trans are not covered. As a road racer I have been hassled about boots [and yes it has one] on the gearlever. Of my otherwise fully covered manual trans which is not a fire hazard.
Valve springs? At those lifts and rpm maybe you should be investigating pnuematic springs as used in F1 and endurance racing engines.
As a matter of interest all the springs I have used in 7500 rpm engines have flat wound dampers. Will that resolve any thing?
Harmonics? Many engines have a dangerous rpm, you can either run under it [usually slow] or over it and usually be ok. Without breaking crank. Damper technology helps these days.. Other engines just simply shake them selves to pieces shaking off flywheels and balancers plus every other bolt in the engine.
The reason a 400Chev is a dog for performance
Steve, have you ever tested your specific camshat and valvetrain with a spintron? A while back, I watched some videos of how a spintron can be used to see exactly what's happening with the valvetrain at the entire rpm range. You might be surprised at what's happening (or not). Maybe you would at least know the exact rpm(s) where you have problems.
I know going from a 1.5 to a 1.6 rocker will shatter all the damper springs on an Edelbrock cam and valve spring set on an old small block Chevy.😂 I was a run the matched kit from one manufacturer guy. Now I'm a buy a cam and lifters from one company and springs from a spring specialist.
How dumb. Change springs instead of just changing rpm, which is free....
I have a question can you pick up any internal physical damage such as a valve spring or a lifter would that show up on logs with a Holley and EGT sensors in the headers? Is the only way to check by pulling the valve covers? Probably dumb question but would appreciate someone’s knowledge.
I don’t think you can pick up “internal physical damage” on logs but it can and did tell Steve that he had an issue in one cylinder (cooler EGT than the others). Steve then tracked that down to the broken spring for that cylinder.
Like Dan said. If you see a cooler temp on a cylinder then it points to a problem. Either valve train or fuel injector to start.
Since the valve spring and retainer stay in place damage is unlikely, like Steve showed is yesterday’s video.
Exhaust gas temperature would detect it, more so if each cylinder was monitored. The temperature would be lower since the fuel wouldn’t burn completely.
A leak down test would diagnose it since the valve wouldn’t seat properly. Air would be heard escaping through the intake manifold it the intake valve spring is broken or through the exhaust pipe if the exhaust valve spring is broken.
The engine wouldn’t sound right because of the incomplete combustion.
He was able to see what cylinder was broken before he pulled the cover based on EGT’s.
Thank you to everyone that offered advice and guidance. Built a huge motor with little experience so now trying to learn on the fly
E85 .... poor mans race fuel!!! That's alot of power for technically a "pump gas"
The nerds of the world thank Steve and Nolan for following up and explaining the cause of the spring breakage. Also the interesting fact about NASCAR and this issue. Once again I learned something new in a SM video.