Robotnik is proof that villains don't need to be super deep or multilayered to be good and compelling. He's evil, he's a sadist, he's incredibly competent when you get right down to it, and he's hilarious. Sometimes that's all you need.
Strangely even when he does have more nuance and layers as a character. You know deep down, he's still evil and he is total okay with that🤣. Honestly he's the first person I think of when I hear the word megalomaniac.
@@forkempty"Y'know, Ivo. I can call you Ivo, right? I respect you." "Well, Jack, I happen to respect you as well! Perhaps you respect me enough to lower that crossbow?" "Only if you lower that gun first. Well, no, we both know you'd just raise it again immediately. And I would too, of course, but that's beside the point."
Hi Lowart - Paul Castiglia here. Thank you so much for the kind shout-out to my story in SONIC #30. Curious what you thought of my more serious tale in issue #70. It was actually inspired by quotes (both written and verbalized) by fans. I won't be offended if you didn't care for it. Thanks again. Though the precise details have long since flown away like a bat out of my belfry, overall my time as an editor, promo guy, behind-the-scenes cog, and occasional writer on Sonic is a fond memory.
Hey Paul! this is IanWaffles the co writer for these videos. Thanks so much for commenting! Its so cool to see the people who worked on these comics so long ago still care about it in some small way. We actually did talk about that issue 70 story in part 2 of this retrospective series, "How Archie Sonic Lost is Mind" starting around 35:43. id love to hear your feedback or mindset for when writing it if you check out the video, and I hope you check out the rest of these videos if you find the time or interest. Take care!
Personally I loved that issue. I loved so many of the issues. I was actually reading the comic back when it was actually coming out and have the paper copy of that issue. I know that St John gets a lot of hate, but I liked the back and forth between him and Sonic.
From the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU, thank you for naming all the different writers, artists, and not just making dumb jokes of how crazy Ken Penders was, this kind of videos is what we need
The funniest thing about Archie Sonic, is how inconsistently consistent the quality is. The comic can go from some of the greatest sequential art of its time, to the kind of trash not fit for publication. In the same issue. Sometimes on the same page. Also, the time where Eggman actually causes Sonic to downright lose his shit, was hype as hell.
Yeah, Archie Sonic oddly has some of the best and worst Sonic stories I've ever seen. I still prefer it over IDW Sonic though, which are mostly just "ok" stories.
@@beauwalker9820 I would say IDW is more consistent. Most of it is good, some of it is great, but its also less interesting than Archie Sonic. Archie Sonic is like driving by a train wreck that was also somehow a plane crash. When its bad, it is fascinatingly bad. And usually its Penders' fault. Not always. But usually. He might even be the most interesting man in all of comics.
@@nicksrandomreviews "Good to great" is generally a whole lot better than "interesting like a train wreck (because one of the head writers is insane)" as far as ongoing issue-to-issue stories go, unless I'm completely missing something. Feels like kind of a nebulous criticism to avoid just admitting that you don't like IDW that much.
@@SpaceManRD I personally do not care about Sonic too much so I'm more attracted by Ken Penders's madness and unhinged stuff than "wanting to see a good Sonic story".
"As you know Dragons cannot tell lies" might be simultaneously the worst exposition, and funniest resolution to a multi issue conflict I have ever heard.
reminds me of the Face arc in Fairy Tail. the entire arc all the characters are struggling to stop a doomsday weapon and at the final hour, everyone fails so The Dragons return out of fucking nowhere and destroy the Face on their own, saving everybody. hated it, i dropped the show after that
With how redundant Endgame was, releasing around a year or less after the previous mini-arc of Sonic being falsely accused for something read as traitor-like, it was needed.
@@maxentirunos I know there are story reasons they were gone I just hate that the entire season was pointless because the dragons do everything at the last second
This is exactly the kind of lengthy video essay Archie Sonic needed. It's refreshing to see this comic receive a big ol analysis and praising some merit it had as opposed to hearing about how crazy Ken Penders is for the 1000th time.
have you been on Twitter people talk all about arcs an rarely mention Ken also Ken is not nearly as bad as people say thou I beg to have my Saffron back Ken please I will pay you
@@kingofthegundam7974 I think the problem is, penders was so influential on the comics, that he overshadows the rest of the writers, even the stuff that was considered good in the book
I think the last rave about how Robotnik seems to hold the entire comic up is a really great character study how every story with a villain secretly rotates around the villain and how the heroes respond to them. If your villain is unremarkable or lame, the story typically tends to follow suit
Well, that's because good stories require conflict, and that conflict is usually provided by a villain (some stories can get away with not having one, but those are usually more grounded slice of life deals). Without conflict, there's no story.
Eh, it depends. The really great stories tend to have great villains in them, but good stories can also have the villain as its weakest part, while still being good. Zootopia is a good example
@@windows98alpha35 I wouldn’t even care about him if he didn’t take Scourge, he can have all his off brand knuckles and weird self insert characters but Scourge was at least a cool and innovative way to put a spin on what essentially what metal sonic and Shadow already was.
I don't get a chill but I get a thought, "What an idiot!" I learned about him more recently as I was never into the Sonic comics other than selling them since I worked at a comic store during that time. This is a guy who managed to win but also lose, BIG, because he actually just killed his own legacy and career.
@@fxailing1201 it's even more unfair considering his new name and design were done by Ian Flynn and Tracy Yardley but he still gets to take that design and credit work.
The big problem with Geoffrey, from my understanding, is he was a pure creation and self-insert for Ken before he went unleashed on Knuckles' storyline.
All writing requires a certain level of self-insertion. If a writer can't relate to his own characters, then readers can't either. It does look like Penders was hijacking the story with the side characters though.
@@Mephitinae There's a world of difference between connecting with your own characters, and self-inserting as them. Penders' writing falls squarely into the latter, and it ultimately does nothing but alienates readers.
I love the idea that OG Robotnik's legacy lived on as a result of him showing kindness and empathy for someone else. The fact that the one he showed such decency towards were a version of himself keeps it in-character, but it's still nutty that someone decided to pick up his legacy because he made an honest attempt at saving another egg-themed tyrant from depression.
In hindsight, I think it's fair to say that the moment Geoffrey St. John was introduced, It marked the subtle beginning of the the slow, subtle, gradual, rot of the Archie Sonic Universe.
@@camerondalton1495 a skunk character that is widely known for being a creep preying on sally and desperately wanting to get with her. basically an incel that was only on the good side because writing said so. also he's in his late twenties iirc (definitely an adult) while sally is 16. penders created him so it makes sense, though, one of the most infamous parts of this is penders tweeting how if archie didn't stop him he would've liked to tell the story of how he took sally's virginity and thus was "faster" than sonic somewhere
@@faeb.9618 Dang, well that is pretty awful. Yeah, I can see why people don't look highly on Archie Sonic. Though I gotta ask does the community feel that the good outweighs the bad somewhat?
@@camerondalton1495 oh definitely, the archie run is still looked back at fondly and people do still miss it a lot and wish it had gotten a better chance. personally while i did skip a lot of the early issues (a mix of hard to find online back when i was reading plus being extremely put off by the creepy stuff) i enjoyed it a lot post genesis wave and i still reread some of the issues that were big favorites of mine. the megaman crossovers in particular were great
Robotnik truly is the glue that holds the series together, huh? From an outsider's perspective you would never know it, but once you look a bit deeper it becomes quite clear. 10/10 I love video essays, this was a joy to watch through and through
hell even Zonic the ZOne cop holds that up, and given how the comic was before Eggman arrive,d it really does feel like they're using that to make like a sort of cosmic rule. WIthout a robotnik, both the comic and sonic were aimless, unable to stick to any one conflict or idea for long. But then once Eggman arrives, it comes together at least somewhat, it starts to work again. Sonic Needs a Robotnik. Robotnik needs a Sonic.
It is genuinely unfathomable that at the point in the series this video ends at it will be over 100 issues including spin-off material before this comic gets good again. I skimmed those issues so hard I cannot remember a thing about them so part 2 will definitely be a wild ride
@@anaveragegamingchannel1843 Yeah I may have been a bit too harsh. “Consistently good” probably would’ve been a better phrase. There’s plenty of good moments in there.
"Having to deal with a calculating dictator is better than dealing with a cataclysmic moron." Huh. I never realized Portal 2 cribbed its story from Archie Comics' Sonic.
“Tammy would be proud” Tammy! My guy Tammy must be bowling her eyes out, since Eggman was dead for two years, and now was brought back, but not actually.
The sad thing is, the comic did genuinely get better around the mid 2000's, but the series reputation is pretty much defined and remembered for all the bad issues that came before it
Yeah, though I think the series had more good then bad issues. I even enjoyed the early cheesy, goofy, kiddy, stories. (C'mon, Robotnik wearing an Elvis wig is comedy gold.)
yeah, I am so sad about that too, because around 160 is when it actually got pretty great. The stuff that came before was no longer actually needed, but it added context at least. But god, the love triangles and assassination of Sally's character was sooooo painful. Geoffrey St. John was the absolute worst if it wasn't the echidna comics.
That Tammy bit is wild. At first I was giggling at this wierd chick being into the fat robot cartoon man, but turned to straight up guffawing when they responded in character as Sonic offering to set her up with some guys at the office.
@@DragonHead771Which part? The lady joking about being into Eggman or the editors joking about offering themselves up instead? It ain't that deep bro.
@@DragonHead771not really lol. Everyone there is clearly having a joke around there. I sincerely doubt this woman ever took any of them up on that offer. Besides what’s creepy about asking people on dates?
@doronaznible7298 the fact that these were all three old men and the girl in question looked like a teenager would be the weird and creepy part, back then comic book artists were openly depraved people
@@TheRxtnNerotbf, It didn't seem like They actually gave her their numbers or any way to contact them personally, Just their First name, so there's that
1:14:03 Friendly reminder to all Sally Acorn fans that this is how Kenders WANTED Sally's story to end, with her dying thinking her beloved Sonic had betrayed her (think about that the next time you want to claim Ian "hates her").
Ian still took down a fan site that had all the Sonic comics, came up the "Sonic Mandates", and had sent his fans to silence people, know it's about Sally, but eh, he still has his crimes
@@SapphireKnight675 Ian follows the mandates specifically because that's how his higher-ups want the comics to be written, nothing less and nothing more. I don't know what "crimes" you're talking about, but Ian never sent his fans to silence people. If anyone would be behind taking down sites that had their Comics on it would be Sega. Unless you have actual evidence aside from second-hand information or out-of-context claims, don't bother spreading false info just because you hate the guy's work.
@@darknessrising2453 Sonic ScanF had a letter why they took the comics section down mentioning Ian and a BumbleKing site, or check out lance jerkov, How one man's ego is killing Sonic, at 27-00 and 32-26, and now thinking about it, they're more petty than crimes
@@SapphireKnight675 And just like that, you killed off your argument. Lance, like many other Anti-Ian fans, outright despises anything and everything connected to Ian to the point where he'll spread out-of-context lies in a vain attempt to force him off the comics, just like that nonsensical U4S movement. If anyone's petty, it's him and anyone who supports his nonsense. Unlike those idiots, I do actual research on his history instead of just looking for excuses to pretend he's the worst thing to happen to the Sonic fandom. Unless you have some actual physical/visual evidence that isn't backed by biased haters or out-of-context info, don't bother me again.
As someone who grew up reading this series instead of anything remotely cool, I thoroughly enjoyed this. I said this on Cybershell's recent Penders video, but Archie Sonic is such a weirdly fascinating piece of pop culture. It went on for so long and deviated so much from its source material, to the point where for a while it was basically one of the lead writer's own weird sci-fi story with Sonic characters in the background. But then under Ian Flynn is actually got pretty damn good, even making those weird original elements compelling. It's a wild ride for a series.
I can't tell you how long I've wanted someone to do full retrospective of the entire comic rather than just go over the cliff-notes. Its such a fascinating and off the wall story that other videos only scratch the surface of.
Man, when I realized Sally was replaced by a robo-doppelgänger (and the stink, let’s be real) in her own series, I knew Sally was heading for trouble. Early Sally was very endearing, thanks for reminding me of that. Boy did I hate Geoffrey for being stitched onto Sally, ugh. And Max, ooh boy. The exposition dialogue from the characters got grating, that was what initially put me off of reading it all until I came back years later. I actually did love Elias the most out of all side characters, felt like he was the only Acorn that was taken care of the most.
Things like Sally's temporary replacement have me grateful for those like Tania Del Rio, giving Sally someone else (being Nicole becoming more than just a device) to talk with that isn't shoved as her love interest- which is interesting considering the buildup Sally had with Nicole in the reboot, being not forced at all and more another look at their dynamic. Sally deserved better than being sidelined by generic designs and Pedo Skunk.
Gotta say, after finishing this video its better than I thought it would be. I've never heard so much praise for Archie outside of the stuff written by Ian Flynn, really just telling it how it is and finding the bright spots from the stuff people kinda stop thinking about because its not the weird stuff that became a meme
Yeah it always bothered me that the wider internet discourse about the comic seemed to be "wow the Archie Sonic comic was really weird and bad" when there were always actually genuinely interesting or good parts in the series from the start.
@@tigerfestivals5137 The issue is pretty much Ken Penders and his team causing a lot of meme mess spread throughout the fandom. And the Comic through Penders kinda became a Scapegoat of hate.
@@tigerfestivals5137 You misread what I typed. I meant that on the Internet Ken Penders and his team were memed to death on the internet. Lowart here is showing the real truth through this video and the future parts :P
@@tigerfestivals5137 I haven't really seen anyone say there wasn't anything good about archie sonic when it started. It just gets memed on so much because it has ideas that this franchise hasn't seen before,and hasn't seen since.
Whenever a character in a comic is just explaining what is happening in the panel it tells me one of two things usually, either they had no idea what to write and thought they wouldn't keep the reader's attention if there isn't at least one speech bubble on each panel. Or they thought the art was so bad that the reader would struggle to understand what was going on in the given scene.
i think it also means that the writers are treating it as a novel instead of as a comic book, so they end up writing paragraphs explaining whats going on when you can literally see it
The thing of "dragons can't tell lies" is actually something that exist in a lot of medias, is especially common in stuff like japanese media, i probably watch 5 or more animes with dragons saying some kind of stuff like that, a huge part of the media like making dragons be "royal" and "pure" wanting to have "honorable fights" and etc. Of course this don't apply to ALL media, but is a trope that actually does exist.
It's not a bad concept for a dragon being completely honest and truthful. It would have worked if the story gave ANY attempts to tell us that nugget of an important fact before it came into play
Geoffrey St John being in any romance with Sally is even worse because Geoffrey has to be well into adulthood. For context, Sally is 17 and her brother is 21. In a flashback to when her brother was a baby and before Sally was born, Geoffrey is shown to be kid. Meaning he is way older than 21😬
Nah bro, you're telling me that this character is a pedophile? Naaaaaaaah 💀💀💀💀 but then again, I'm not surprised. 🦨= 👴🏻 " You killed the woman I love. "
The ammount of effort you took to not pile all the blame for this onto penders is really admirable, even people who KNOW he wasn't the only one responsible for the wreckage will usually hyperfocus on the pattern of the downwards spiral and him switching to a solo writer happening around the same time. Its super easy to look to the future and judge the past on the light that future casts, but you went the extra mile and stuck from the perspective of the comic at that time.
@@daelen.cclark I would still personally point the finger at penders going solo as what shifted everything, the others had some stumbles but with one of the centerfolds of the series being what Kenders wrote, a lot of the other creators worst traits would mix with his to be even worse than before. But I do like that there's a perspective out there that tries to approach it with more fairness and objectivity than me.
@@Fanatic_Foremem Agreed. But I’m still glad Flynn came on board, despite Sega’s restrictions. (Penders did kinda make everyone else worse, didn’t he?)
Yeah, that must have taken a lot of restraint, Penders is waaaaaay too easy to hate. While of course alot of his issues are widely visible, he is a red herring, none of the problems he produced would have happened without poor oversight and a myriad of other issues.
Archie Robotnik/Eggman is absolutely terrifying and despite how messy Endgame was that final fight between him and Sonic was amazingly climactic. Honestly his "return" has to be one of the most dread-inducing things I read as a child
Every single character talking the same is the biggest problem with Ken Penders' writing. He's incapable of writing different characters, he only writes Ken Penders.
It’s truly a shame that the span of the story that had, by a *massive* margin, the most intricate and detailed art had to also be plagued by PendersWriting™️
Archie Sonic is my favorite Sonic continuity, pre-reboot especially, massive warts and all. It was so incredible as a kid, sometime in 2008, to find a comic doing what I'd always done in my head, blend all these characters and concepts from across Sonic media together. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about it, to talk about the Gallagher era, surprisingly, with such thoroughness and sincerity for what you loved and hated. I feel that discussion about Archie Sonic in the larger fandom has deteriorated almost entirely in recent years, particularly for anything pre-Ian. The series gets treated like it's some bizarre footnote in Sonic's history, one that's only really brought up through tired Penders memes and misinformation. There's a huge barrier to entry, and a lot of people are more interested in a Sonic that's more on-brand to what's current nowadays, but I'm glad there are still some folks out there taking The Ride and finding stuff to enjoy.
@@papagarchomp6326Things like Penders suing Archie (Archie sued him- over contract disputes and Penders wanting to be paid for all of his characters), those who think every pre-Flynn character is Penders-made (Mina was Bollers, Athair was by Gallagher and Holo-Lynx form Nicole was Tania Del Rio), etc. As someone who will defend the Reboot, I kind of wish IDW was more integrated with game-comic synergy, instead of "games canon move on". There's a chance because Sally and the SatAM cast is owned by DiC, they could be bought, but this isn't likely. Spinball returning to canon does make you wonder however.
@@papagarchomp6326 More misinformation than I care to list, really. It's not just one thing, it's a bunch of little things that spread and mutate. Generally, I'll say there's a lot of fans, those who have never touched the series, who pull up material from Archie out of context and fill in the blinks themselves with false information and half-truths. This can extend past the comic itself to the people who worked on it, or the various behind-the-scenes details and drama.
@@amesstarline5482 I think Ken made Sega too paranoid to use Sally & Co. as they probably fear getting into legal battles over them too, with whomever their creators are... And Ken did kinda try to copyright his characters behind their backs, (and flat out admitted this on his website) and got very upset over "Sonic Chronicles" kinda referencing his stories, (particularly how the echidna brotherhood being a little similar to his Dark Echidna Legion, which according to Bioware was an intentional harmless homage to Archie Sonic, but Ken took it as "ripping him off") so he's not entirely innocent either. The Penders incidents also lead to the reboots of the comics. So it's a little understandable why he's become a bit disliked by Sonic fans. I've even heard stories of fans whom had bad experiences with him... Regardless, I do think it's unfair when people say "all" his stories and characters were bad, when honestly they weren't. In fact, he made some pretty good ones, and he helped expand the comic's world building. Even writer Ian Flynn was a huge fan of Ken's works, and build on his stories/characters. So even Ian fans owe some of Ian's best stories to Ken.
@@beauwalker9820 Despite how Sally wasn't even introduced by him.. I'm more willing to bet the Sally situation is a delayed side effect of the Depiction Merger, where some Western Elements (like the surname Robotnik, Chili Dogs, and the brotherly dynamic of Sonic and Tails) carried over, but Western-formed characters like Sally, Tekno from Fleetway, and Alucion from the French Adventures book are no-goes. This may be a similar reason as to why we don't have the TV Show Caveman from Mario World in later games, or any allusion to Captain N in Smash Bros.
Geoffrey should have been the traitor. It would make sense. The reason why he stirs up drama is because he is trying to tear the freedom fighters apart and making them distrust each other enough so that when HE dresses up as Sonic and cuts the rope everyone jumps to the conclusion and it makes sense. No stupid Snively vision and no dumb Dragons can't tell lies.
Talking as someone who grew up reading the comedic first issues up until the metallic arc, I have to admit I appreciate this retrospective not just for covering stuff I didn’t read, but also to give me validation that there WAS actual charm in those early comics. Friends use to tell me those stories were way too childish and kiddy and weren’t worth reading, so again, kinda needed to see that. Can’t wait to see how much more batshit insane this gets from here
I'm not even much of a sonic fan but I'm I find the insane storytelling surrounding these characters incredibly interesting. THIS VIDEO though, took it to a completely new level. What an insane ride going through your experience with these comics. Thank you so much for making this; I can't wait for the next one!
You have no idea how i've been yearning to see someone do an entire retrospective of the archie series. as much it's fun to poke at the out of context panels, bizarre artwork, and penders. reading them through and through brings an entire interesting ride in it's own right, and in fact it shows the series has quite a ton of fun concepts we may never get to see again, for better or worse. and honestly that's what brings it's charm to me growing up with those comics and why it took some time to read into idw as funny it sounds. After watching this retrospective i'm severely Looking forward to part 2! you've captured everything about archie's run during the early years, a fantastic run through while giving it a completely fair shot as most people would resort to dismiss it for simply just being wacky, definitely a good recommend for anyone wanting to know what Archie's run and why people enjoyed it among a good reason why it felt sorrowing when the entire comic series ended in 2017. for anything to mention, people who've read archie sonic's stories for the longest of time, the next set of issues all the way up to 159 considered the dark age and to be quite honest, it's a fireworks festival of insanity that amazes me how the comics run survived through that period
Sigh, I truly miss the Archie Sonic run. For all its faults, I loved it wholeheartedly. I loved how unique it was and how it really did do things you never saw anywhere else. I miss the family that the characters were given. I miss Jules and Locke. I miss Julie-Su and her relationship with Knuckles. I miss the freedom fighters. I miss how vast the world was and how there was so many unique things yoy never saw anywhere else. The cool villains like Dr. Finitevus and Enerjak too the sympathetic but still evil Snively. Sadly, all these things and so much more are now lost and it is depressing to think about. Losing well over a decade of such writing is a true lose. Espacially when it was in an era that was still going strong and had a healthy fan base. Yet now it the story was abruptly ended and that's heartbreaking. I wish things were different. That it hadn't ended like this. Sigh, I wish things were able to at least conclude. Part of me hopes one day it could come back, but sadly we all know that's lower then winning the lotto.
Well the problem is that many of those things you've mentioned were genuinely expanded after Ian Flynn took over (not all, but many), and that's after issue 160, I think, that's a lot of issues without a lot of substance
I love Antoine... his voice actors (english and pt-br) and his expressions and stories OMG! I LOVE ALL THE CARE THAT THEY MADE DRAWING HIM! IT'S AMAZING! They sure had fun.
I really appreciate the effort and thoughtful analysis put into this video. I grew up reading this comic every month for a straight 24 years. I love the comic greatly, but yeah, I know it has lots of flaws. I'm happy that you read it and can acknowledge its merit while while still administering a fair critique. I hope you do a continuation video. The later issues are really weird and a lot of fun.
I actually unironically like the Eggman design in the center of the page at 2:49:32, I would love to see this design actually come to fruition at some point. That eggman looks like he would ride a motorcycle and have huge tattoos on his biceps.
Although the Archie comic’s undeniably went down under at some point till it’s bitter end in 2017, it is nice to appreciate the charm and good qualities it had in the early comics even after Endgame. Also if you think the Archie Comic’s were crazy, I suggest you take a look at the UK Fleetway Sonic Comic’s sometime. They’re so absurd it makes the Archie Universe look like a cakewalk lmao. Also CANNOT WAIT FOR PART 2!!
I grew up reading the Archie comics from 2008 onwards and I was a small child, single digits, but as someone who is now an adult I can look back and see not only the flaws but the charm of the series. It means a lot to see someone cover something that was such a large part of my childhood with such depth and love for a series people often find insufferable! Plus, this video is an amazing recap and great listen! Thank you for this video! You just gained a subscriber :)
@@drifter402 ohhh yeah I got to miss a lot of the early shenanigans and confusing plots where it felt like they didn’t know what they were doing lol. I believe the first one I picked up was actually the jailbreak arc of scrouge!
Honestly, this video kinda gives me an appreciation for the incredibly tricky balancing act Sonic stories have to pull - they work best when there's serious stakes involved to make it more than just silly cartoon antics but with just the right balance of goofy to keep it from edgy grimdark BS. Some of the games strike that balance intentionally (S3&K, Sonic Mania, Sonic CD), some of them (sort of) unintentionally (Sonic Adventure), and some go way too far in either direction (Sonic 06, Shadow the Edgehog, Sonic Colours)
@@whaleping i always thought the goofiness appeal of shadow with a gun comes from him being a silly cartoon hedgehog wielding a deadly hyper-realistic weapon but that's also really great. huge fan
@@Blanktester685 Ive played s3&k, mania, cd, adventure, and colours. i haven't played 06 or edgy hedgy but i've seen a full lets play of the former and a decent chunk of the latter
None of these are even remotely your own thoughts or opinions. You just got all that from other people who've said the same thing verbatim, instead of thinking for yourself.
This video unironically is helping me on what to do in comics and what not to do in comics. That and I adore your writing for the do it yourself comic! Very funny (love the part where the comic bubble couldn't handle more dialog)
Archie Sonic is incredible; so many things came together to make a comic so crazy and out there that no other comic will ever come around like it again, for better or worse. All that narration actually has an explanation; the writers of Archie Sonic all came from superhero comics (DC mostly), and that kind of dramatic narration is omnipresent there, and a ton of old superhero comics would have characters describe what was happening because the sequential art medium was still pretty new. So the writers of Archie Sonic kept a lot of those old habits.
Bravo! This is the first time I've seen a video cover Archie Sonic beyond Ken Penders and memeable images. Can't wait for part 2! On a side note, I'm a big fan of Archie Sonic, but I think a big part of that is because I started out by keeping up on the Mobius Encyclopedia (its fan wiki) while Ian Flynn was getting his feet wet as lead writer. You hit nail on the head when you said that a bunch of the ideas are great conceptually, and it took me a while to realize how wild and insane the comic was at times before Ian took over.
It's something I appreciate about what Flynn helped with Archie- understanding Sonic as a game franchise and toning down on the constant adding of characters (until they had to in the Reboot). I mean, the Secret Freedom Fighters helped Elias become something other than a male Sally replacement "heir" and brought back both Larry Lynx and Harvey Who from their one-off roles. Almost reinventing and revising the Substitute Freedom Fighters. While I don't know much for others, Penders didn't play any Sonic and Jon Gray seemingly did, considering the appearance of Marble Garden.
I still have a lot of love for Endgame. I agree that it's contrived and unfocused and full of Penders' ideocentricies that haven't aged well, but I appreciate it as a grand finale. The fact is that, as you brought up, it was very likely that Archie was going to get canceled. They didn't know if there would be anything after the milestone, so it only makes sense that it would end up feeling a little rushed. The fact that it's as good as it is is an accomplishment in and of itself. And that ending, woo that ending. The perfect fight.
I think the longer "Director's Cut" featured in "Sonic Super Special," and "Sonic Archives" was much better. I think if more people saw that, they might like Endgame better. Though, of course it still has flaws like the Dulcy bit, and such.
Best video essay I’ve seen in a long time I never wanted it to end. I have been a fan of all versions of the comics and to see someone focus on the positives as well as the negatives means so much to me. I cried at this video. I laughed at this video and I will definitely be watching this over and over again for many years to come
I don’t love the pre-reboot comics. There’s way too many karma houdinis and the heroes suffer too much. Mostly Sonic. I definitely prefer the post-reboot comics.
Mega Collection was pretty generous to make sure they squeezed at least SOME into the extras though. SEGA, whether or not they will openly admit it with frequency, considers the Archie comics to be important part of Sonic history
@@supersonicfan7514 I disagree, alot of bad guys eventually got what they deserved, and if nothing bad ever happened to the good guys there would be no conflicts, story arcs, or adventures. Things always worked out if you read more of them.
@@erikbihari3625 granted, now it feels like IDW hardly has any freedom. Heck, they aren't even allowed to use old pre-Sonic Adventure characters, (like Mighty, Ray, or Nack) except in "Classic Sonic" style anniversary one shots that aren't part of the IDW-verse...
So I just finished the video, and I gotta say…this is the best retrospective on Archie Sonic I’ve seen in a long time. It feels like any discussion or video about Archie Sonic gets overshadowed by nothing but Ken Penders’ contributions and the bad that it’s basically all anyone ever talks about anymore. It makes me really happy that you gave it a fair chance, and ESPECIALLY listing off artist/writer’s names to show that it wasn’t just one guy. My only complaint is that I wish you talked about Karl Bollers, but still. Really can’t wait for your other videos on Archie Sonic!
We originally had a section on Karl Bollers here - but we decided it was could come across as mean-spirited following a lot of purposefully extreme complaining. As such, we moved it to later, where bringing him up will hopefully feel nicer. I'm happy you enjoyed the video though! :)
@@Lowart I'm curious (and want to torment you with content to read through)... Have you considered doing a video on Homestuck (in particular running from 4/13/09-10/25/16) before? Is there any dread at the thought of tackling it, or would it just be a breeze after the 290 Sonic Archie Comics? :V
@@StinkTerios Yes. And then kill his 3 Doomed Timeline Selves, and Prospit/Derse self, then at least a few Dream Bubble Ghosts, then just do it again. Then make a poorly recieved sequel to THEN kill him again a few more times :V
Robotnik and/or Eggman are proof that villains don't NEED to have depth. They just have to be *fun*. This depends on what a story's tone is, and for Sonic, he fits. An egotistical embodiment of hatred could be written to have nuance every now and then. I think a lot about this scene in the more recent IDW comics where Starline asks Eggman why make theme parks instead of efficiently using all resources, and he just says "I like theme parks". He sees the world as his vanity project, and won't settle for less. It's great.
Towards the end where it gets REEAALLY spicy it gets me thinking about how unsatisfied I was when Sonic SatAM ended. Snively was taking over, Robotic defeated, and we meet a mysterious creature with red eyes while Snively says "and I'm NOT ALOoNNE!" like ugh! I want closure on that ending so bad. It was a great series and same for Underground too --they never carried out the vow lol
for the record red eyed guy was apparently going to be ixis naugus so, like how the comics did for a while, naugus was gonna replace robotnik as the big bad
As someone who wants to be the master of all Sonic knowledge, this is the PERFECT video for me. I don’t know how I stumbled upon it, but I’m glad I did. Reminds me of Game Apologist. :)
I love how Ken Penders goes from just a writer to the start of the corruption that really messed the characters up (with Geoffrey and Knuckles being the best examples)
I've been curious about the Sonic comic for a long time but didn't know how to get into it since I knew it has a lot of side stories and what not. Thank you for laying it all out in such a comprehensive way. I look forward to watching the rest of these videos!
@@KirbySonicTeam I did. As context, I briefly read some of the Archie sonic comics in the mid to late 2000s, and had no idea what was going on most of the time with all the non-game characters. This video was a pretty excellent rundown of the peaks and valleys of the early comic, which I'd simply never seen before. A lot of the background, from what I can remember, makes a lot more sense knowing what came before. The early tone caught me a bit by surprise, so much more comedic then what I remember the comic being in my generation. Lowart's breakdown of what made this characters and situations likable was quite excellent. It seems like a quite fun serial, and a miracle in a way that it went on as long as it did. I am avidly anticipating further installments, as the breakdown of the comic gets closer to what I personally know.
Sometimes it’s hard to believe that Ken Penders wasn’t always “so we have these hyper sexualized echidnas that I really like *sniffs painting of Juilie Sue* (I forgot how to spell her name and I’m not looking it up) and we’re gonna give the characters sex lives to make them more “mature””
Don't forget Tails finally getting a girlfriend but Nah, CHAD BIG BROTHER SONIC IS HERE TO... steal the girlfriend of his... probably by now 10 year old best friend...
My favourite thing about the comics (especially being an artist myself was that they had a fan art page! I always bought the comics and looked forward to the fanart page! Sonic was also super supportive about all the art. I loved it so much.
Ugh it kills me that they got rid of Antoine's cowerdice right before that reveal of why he wears his outfit, because if he was still a coward, that reveal would actually work very well. I love the idea that he isn't a soldier, but is desperately trying to live up to the memory of his father by fighting despite his fear. Also man, total missed chance for a moment with Knuckles, usually the most suspicious of Sonic, be the ONE person who refuses to believe that he killed Sally.
I have started with the UK version and after issue like 100 it gets really good the stuff beforehand is slow and unfocused also since I am in exactly issue 125 I really enjoyed How Sonic said the Zones should have their own representation in the democratic issue and that was my headcanon and what I saw with the forces game like 2 nations Eggman v Sonic but not exactly because also Sonic in my mind is above the conflict so Sally was needed but anyway I am rambling
You know when playing the games I never really thought about Sonic having green eyes or new shoes. I guess I assumed that he just got new shoes and his eyes were always green (maybe he just got contacts). Never would I assume that Sonic ran around the world into a time beam and did something incomprehensible that eventually led to his eyes becoming green and getting new shoes. I understand that Comics often change designs when the character changes design in a more popular media, but why not just have Sonic get a new pair of shoes and just start coloring his eyes green? I wouldn’t even question that!
God I wish I saw this sooner. I just binged this whole video in one night and I don’t regret it. The Archie comics played a massive role in my childhood growing up, so this video was a treat for me. I remember my first experience with this story being an old RUclips video paying tribute to this green Sonic lookalike in a black jacket (that being Scourge), and I remember thinking he looked cool… because I was a dumb kid and an evil Sonic fighting a good Sonic was all I needed to feel happy. Afterwards, I didn’t think too much of it, but I did want to read those comics having found out that they existed, and one day my luck turned round as my school recently acquired a collection of a bunch of the old gag issues (starting all the way at issue 0). And I loved every moment of them. The absurdity, the campiness, the characters, I enjoyed every minute. For awhile, I hadn’t even noticed that the series was getting more serialised and serious, I was just having fun. Then Endgame came along… and at the time I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Sonic’s been framed, everyone has turned against him, he has a cool prison escape and fights Robotnik to the death. It was exiting, it was tense, it was… SO DUMB. But it was also just so damn ridiculous I couldn’t help but love it. It made me think the comic had ended and this was the last story, so I stopped following it. But in the back of my mind, I remembered him, Scourge. I never DID get to see him? Sure, I saw evil Sonic, but I never got to see how he wound up turning green. I then looked through to see if I had missed anything online, and low and behold… hundreds of issues awaited me. I believe I started the series back up again once Sonic had gotten his more modern design (with the green eyes), meaning I experienced the glory of Robotnik’s return and I just went on from there. This video was a treat through and through and awakened so much nostalgia within me. It also helped shine light on all the stuff I ended up skipping, which was really interesting to see. Also, just watching the insanity as you tried to comprehend everything was so damn funny yet also relatable as I went back a few years later to reread a lot of the older Archie comics like Endgame and Sonic Quest again, and I truly felt similar levels of bewilderment. I’m so glad I watched all of this. I had already been a follower of your stuff for a bit, but somehow I ended up missing this upon release. I’m grateful I still ended up finding it regardless. I can’t wait to see you talk about everything that goes down in the next part.
All the stuff about needing to read the Knuckles spin-off to make sense of anything is funny because this is standard stuff in comic books. As a person familiar with comic books, this stuff is expected. But when you take a step back and look at it you realize how absolutely psychotic the practice is.
The spin-offs with required reading, the overdone narration, and the ever-changing roster of writers and artists certainly all have been and continue to be problems in Marvel and DC comics. They're some of the problems that made reading manga feel so much better because of their absence.
The worst thing is, the paneling and expressions in Nate's backstory and the comic in general are strong enough to the point where I can make out 90% of the story without dialogue. When I can tell exactly what's happening without paragraph of text you don't need those paragraphs of text.
I can’t wait for you to go onto the rest of the series!!! Honestly in my opinion it gets insanely weirder but after issue 160 it’s all up hill by that point!
This is a genuine piece of art Lowart. I'm such a big fan of Sonic and watching this has really got me wanting to finally read these comics! Can't wait for the next part!
Y'know the dumbest thing about the Sonic/Sally/Geoffrey love triangle? They already set up Knuckles for that role. They established a history between him and Sally, and showed that Sonic was jealous of this, on top of the fact that they were _already_ rivals who would fight each other all the time. But then they just kind of dropped that idea and created Geoffrey to fill that role. Instead of further adding more tension to Sonic and Knuckles' rivalry, which would have been logical and entertaining, they shoehorned in a skunk nobody knows.
This video was insane as it is, here I was naively thinking almost 3 hours would cover up everything, but a PART2?! This is hands down gonna be the best retrospectives I've ever watched. Great work, man, and keep it up!
I get the feeling that it was no coincidence that Robotnik was reintroduced in 1999 a few months after the release of Sonic Adventure. It’s safe to say that Sonic Adventure injected some life into the franchise and generated some renewed interest, thus meaning that some higher up likely wanted Robotnik to be brought back but for him to be in his Adventure design (the same likely happened for Sonic). Honestly I’m here for that as I am a huge fan of the adventure era designs of all the characters and Sega likely wanted to keep the designs consistent across media platforms.
Wow, what a wonderful, unexpected video to come across my timeline. I read these comics growing up. I remember reading endgame when I was a teenager. I really appreciate that you found the good stuff in these stories - enjoying the silliness and fun of the early stories and appreciating the concepts of the more serious stories even when the execution wasn't quite there. Speaking of execution: what a well edited and scripted video. I can't imagine the work that went into collecting all those 100s of panels and separating them. And I laughed out loud when Tammy got a final shout-out near the end of the video. It's amazing how long some memories stick in your mind - I remember reading that sonic-gram as a kid. I don't want to be too effusive with my praise, but this might just be The World's Most Way-Past-Cool RUclips Video.
I used to be into Archie Sonic, but nowadays I had almost forgotten any of the storylines. The video was a cool trip down the memory lane for me. Seeing again the good, the bad, and the ugly 😃
I thought I was going to just put this on in the background while playing a game, but ended up so sucked into something I've never read, from a RUclipsr I've never seen, for the whole nearly 3 hours. Great work on this
Man, this is some nostalgia. I started reading the comics when I was 4 years old, back when issue 15 came out. I still have a bunch of these comics in my basement, but I know a good chunk got damaged when it flooded. I remember more of the first 25 issues than the later ones weirdly enough. It's interesting to see how the series went from a fun, gag filled romp to a more serious thing. I don't remember when exactly I stopped reading them; maybe 2006? By that point, the series became more confusing than a soap opera. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this series, especially to see if you can make some sense of some of those late-era (for me) plots. Assuming you do continue. (I still have an hour left in this vid as I make this comment, so idk what you say at the end)
I put off watching this video for a long time because of its length, and how I just didn’t have the time to watch it, but I’m happy I finally did. This is an amazing retrospective on a series that meant a lot to me as a kid,and it still does now in a way. You helped remind me just how much FUN the early Archie stuff was! Thanks for that 👍.
Wonderful video! I had no idea that Antoine had better moments in the comic. Indeed, he kinda sucked in SatAM, but I like how the comic stories you mentioned didn't change his inherent character while still making him likable. His cowardice never made him unlikable; it was how he never rose above it in the show that made him lame. In fiction, some of my favorite characters are those with cowardice that rise above it to do the right thing, because being scared of a situation is...very relatable, to be honest. Bravery is overcoming the fears you have, and so such bravery is all the more satisfying coming from a character who has many fears.
I've been looking for a video like this. I never had the privellege of reading the comics or watching SatAM, but I did get to enjoy the first issue via Sonic Mega Collection +. I did not expect to enjoy it all too much, but I found myself getting this inexplicably giddy feeling even just reading through the first issue. I've always considered getting into this series, but there's just so much to cover that it's kind of intimidating to start. This is scratching that itch I have had for a long time, great video!
Robotnik is proof that villains don't need to be super deep or multilayered to be good and compelling. He's evil, he's a sadist, he's incredibly competent when you get right down to it, and he's hilarious. Sometimes that's all you need.
Strangely even when he does have more nuance and layers as a character. You know deep down, he's still evil and he is total okay with that🤣. Honestly he's the first person I think of when I hear the word megalomaniac.
I imagine that he and a certain DreamWorks villain would get along fine, if not try to off each other immediately.
tammy wouldn't like you saying that you know
“You wouldn’t shoot a hedgehog in the face would you Robotnik?”
“Yeah in the face watch”
@@forkempty"Y'know, Ivo. I can call you Ivo, right? I respect you."
"Well, Jack, I happen to respect you as well! Perhaps you respect me enough to lower that crossbow?"
"Only if you lower that gun first. Well, no, we both know you'd just raise it again immediately. And I would too, of course, but that's beside the point."
i am forever going to laugh at the “tails i don’t have a big enough word bubble”
YEEES
That's equivalent exchange for ya!
@@nomadspeed What's equivalent exchange?
That was like a Snapcube bit 😂
@@robertkovarna8294 It's the best Minecraft mod. Also Fullmetal Alchemist.
Hi Lowart - Paul Castiglia here. Thank you so much for the kind shout-out to my story in SONIC #30. Curious what you thought of my more serious tale in issue #70. It was actually inspired by quotes (both written and verbalized) by fans. I won't be offended if you didn't care for it. Thanks again. Though the precise details have long since flown away like a bat out of my belfry, overall my time as an editor, promo guy, behind-the-scenes cog, and occasional writer on Sonic is a fond memory.
Hey Paul! this is IanWaffles the co writer for these videos. Thanks so much for commenting! Its so cool to see the people who worked on these comics so long ago still care about it in some small way. We actually did talk about that issue 70 story in part 2 of this retrospective series, "How Archie Sonic Lost is Mind" starting around 35:43. id love to hear your feedback or mindset for when writing it if you check out the video, and I hope you check out the rest of these videos if you find the time or interest. Take care!
Thank you - I will check it out!
Personally I loved that issue. I loved so many of the issues. I was actually reading the comic back when it was actually coming out and have the paper copy of that issue. I know that St John gets a lot of hate, but I liked the back and forth between him and Sonic.
the one where he has a trippy dream about his morality? ngl i always thought it was you reflecting on how the comic evolved over time
laughing my ass off at the girl who attempted to “I can fix him” Robotnik
Honestly love to see it
Honestly she wasn't even trying to fix him. Seems like she enjoys the fact that he's a crazy megalomaniacal tyrant.
which of the characters was it? what's her name? XDXDXD
@@traps-wg3gt wasn’t a character. Was a reader sending in letters.
"I can fix him"
My sister in Christ he drinks WD-40!
From the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU, thank you for naming all the different writers, artists, and not just making dumb jokes of how crazy Ken Penders was, this kind of videos is what we need
I agree.
The funniest thing about Archie Sonic, is how inconsistently consistent the quality is. The comic can go from some of the greatest sequential art of its time, to the kind of trash not fit for publication. In the same issue. Sometimes on the same page.
Also, the time where Eggman actually causes Sonic to downright lose his shit, was hype as hell.
Yeah, Archie Sonic oddly has some of the best and worst Sonic stories I've ever seen. I still prefer it over IDW Sonic though, which are mostly just "ok" stories.
@@beauwalker9820 I would say IDW is more consistent. Most of it is good, some of it is great, but its also less interesting than Archie Sonic. Archie Sonic is like driving by a train wreck that was also somehow a plane crash. When its bad, it is fascinatingly bad. And usually its Penders' fault. Not always. But usually. He might even be the most interesting man in all of comics.
@@nicksrandomreviews "Good to great" is generally a whole lot better than "interesting like a train wreck (because one of the head writers is insane)" as far as ongoing issue-to-issue stories go, unless I'm completely missing something. Feels like kind of a nebulous criticism to avoid just admitting that you don't like IDW that much.
@@SpaceManRD I personally do not care about Sonic too much so I'm more attracted by Ken Penders's madness and unhinged stuff than "wanting to see a good Sonic story".
@@dianavespid937 nah ur weird 🤨
"As you know Dragons cannot tell lies" might be simultaneously the worst exposition, and funniest resolution to a multi issue conflict I have ever heard.
reminds me of the Face arc in Fairy Tail. the entire arc all the characters are struggling to stop a doomsday weapon and at the final hour, everyone fails so The Dragons return out of fucking nowhere and destroy the Face on their own, saving everybody. hated it, i dropped the show after that
@@Hugsloth well at least this one was funny
With how redundant Endgame was, releasing around a year or less after the previous mini-arc of Sonic being falsely accused for something read as traitor-like, it was needed.
@@Hugsloth Did you drop it at that, or after you got the explanation of where the dragons had disappeared to and why they came back now ?
@@maxentirunos I know there are story reasons they were gone I just hate that the entire season was pointless because the dragons do everything at the last second
This is exactly the kind of lengthy video essay Archie Sonic needed. It's refreshing to see this comic receive a big ol analysis and praising some merit it had as opposed to hearing about how crazy Ken Penders is for the 1000th time.
have you been on Twitter people talk all about arcs an rarely mention Ken also Ken is not nearly as bad as people say
thou I beg to have my Saffron back Ken please I will pay you
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 You're in different circles than me I guess. Penders never goes unmentioned.
@@mrbanks456 today a artist kept adding other users ocs on a couch via many drawings it was oddly precious
I mean, Penders IS crazy, but he wasn't the only writer on that comic, and plenty of other people like Karl Bollers deserve praise for their work.
@@kingofthegundam7974 I think the problem is, penders was so influential on the comics, that he overshadows the rest of the writers, even the stuff that was considered good in the book
I think the last rave about how Robotnik seems to hold the entire comic up is a really great character study how every story with a villain secretly rotates around the villain and how the heroes respond to them. If your villain is unremarkable or lame, the story typically tends to follow suit
Well, that's because good stories require conflict, and that conflict is usually provided by a villain (some stories can get away with not having one, but those are usually more grounded slice of life deals). Without conflict, there's no story.
Stan Lee has stated that a "hero is only as good as his villain"
Eh, it depends. The really great stories tend to have great villains in them, but good stories can also have the villain as its weakest part, while still being good. Zootopia is a good example
Can't believe this ended right before you got to the part about Robotnik having WMDs
Well it comes with the abreviation game: Eggman has ICBMS, Robotnik had WMDs and Rouge had STDs.
@@jakespacepiratee3740 and Sally has squaids. It's serious sh**
Oh hey Max
To be fair in sa1 eggman tried to nuke station square
So I guess that the closest we got to that
What?!
does anyone else get a chill of fear whenever ken penders is mentioned
I just “sigh” cause I know what’s coming.
I probably would if this community would shut up about the guy for more than a day. Hearing the name over and over again desensitizes you.
@@windows98alpha35 I wouldn’t even care about him if he didn’t take Scourge, he can have all his off brand knuckles and weird self insert characters but Scourge was at least a cool and innovative way to put a spin on what essentially what metal sonic and Shadow already was.
I don't get a chill but I get a thought, "What an idiot!" I learned about him more recently as I was never into the Sonic comics other than selling them since I worked at a comic store during that time. This is a guy who managed to win but also lose, BIG, because he actually just killed his own legacy and career.
@@fxailing1201 it's even more unfair considering his new name and design were done by Ian Flynn and Tracy Yardley but he still gets to take that design and credit work.
The big problem with Geoffrey, from my understanding, is he was a pure creation and self-insert for Ken before he went unleashed on Knuckles' storyline.
Not exactly why he exist. He's more of a 007 homage.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Because that's Ken's self-insert (his ego is that massive)
@@ExValeFor knuckles is closer to being his self insert. He even gave knuckles problems with his father like him.
All writing requires a certain level of self-insertion. If a writer can't relate to his own characters, then readers can't either. It does look like Penders was hijacking the story with the side characters though.
@@Mephitinae
There's a world of difference between connecting with your own characters, and self-inserting as them. Penders' writing falls squarely into the latter, and it ultimately does nothing but alienates readers.
I love the idea that OG Robotnik's legacy lived on as a result of him showing kindness and empathy for someone else. The fact that the one he showed such decency towards were a version of himself keeps it in-character, but it's still nutty that someone decided to pick up his legacy because he made an honest attempt at saving another egg-themed tyrant from depression.
😂😢😂g❤8❤kid 😂bk😊😢😅❤😅😂❤😢gn😂i0p😢jyijf😮
That’s beautiful man
In hindsight, I think it's fair to say that the moment Geoffrey St. John was introduced, It marked the subtle beginning of the the slow, subtle, gradual, rot of the Archie Sonic Universe.
Who?
@@camerondalton1495 a skunk character that is widely known for being a creep preying on sally and desperately wanting to get with her. basically an incel that was only on the good side because writing said so. also he's in his late twenties iirc (definitely an adult) while sally is 16. penders created him so it makes sense, though, one of the most infamous parts of this is penders tweeting how if archie didn't stop him he would've liked to tell the story of how he took sally's virginity and thus was "faster" than sonic somewhere
@@faeb.9618 Dang, well that is pretty awful. Yeah, I can see why people don't look highly on Archie Sonic. Though I gotta ask does the community feel that the good outweighs the bad somewhat?
@@camerondalton1495 oh definitely, the archie run is still looked back at fondly and people do still miss it a lot and wish it had gotten a better chance. personally while i did skip a lot of the early issues (a mix of hard to find online back when i was reading plus being extremely put off by the creepy stuff) i enjoyed it a lot post genesis wave and i still reread some of the issues that were big favorites of mine. the megaman crossovers in particular were great
@@faeb.9618 It was Penders getting too big for his britches that did it.
Robotnik truly is the glue that holds the series together, huh? From an outsider's perspective you would never know it, but once you look a bit deeper it becomes quite clear. 10/10 I love video essays, this was a joy to watch through and through
I agree.
hell even Zonic the ZOne cop holds that up, and given how the comic was before Eggman arrive,d it really does feel like they're using that to make like a sort of cosmic rule. WIthout a robotnik, both the comic and sonic were aimless, unable to stick to any one conflict or idea for long. But then once Eggman arrives, it comes together at least somewhat, it starts to work again.
Sonic Needs a Robotnik. Robotnik needs a Sonic.
Well I cannot say I expected Antoine character analysis in 2023, even just a 5 minute one
Niether am I all of this!
The early ‘20s have been full of surprises.
This is luckily one of the better ones
@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770. I wouldn't call it like that.
What can be said in five minutes? Give me five hours. He was Usopp before Usopp.
@@hitbycars goated
It is genuinely unfathomable that at the point in the series this video ends at it will be over 100 issues including spin-off material before this comic gets good again. I skimmed those issues so hard I cannot remember a thing about them so part 2 will definitely be a wild ride
I don't believe 98% of these deserve any real hate their fun but if adapted into animation be modified a bit hehe this goes for later arcs too
I haven't read any of them, myself, but how can you be sure they're not good if you skimmed them?
@@Gloomdrake facts so many out of context post seem to be overly valued on Twitter
I wouldn't say that. Bollers' run was pretty good, especially Return to Angel Island.
@@anaveragegamingchannel1843 Yeah I may have been a bit too harsh. “Consistently good” probably would’ve been a better phrase. There’s plenty of good moments in there.
"Tails, I don't have a big enough word bubble!" is actually really good and on-brand for that point in the series. Excellent work!
i agree
I agree.
@@viaticaleyeI agree.
"Having to deal with a calculating dictator is better than dealing with a cataclysmic moron."
Huh. I never realized Portal 2 cribbed its story from Archie Comics' Sonic.
Agreed.
do NOT let Ken Penders find this comment, the last thing we need is that fucker trying to sue Valve for "stealing his story"
“Tammy would be proud” Tammy! My guy Tammy must be bowling her eyes out, since Eggman was dead for two years, and now was brought back, but not actually.
I agree.
The sad thing is, the comic did genuinely get better around the mid 2000's, but the series reputation is pretty much defined and remembered for all the bad issues that came before it
Yeah, though I think the series had more good then bad issues.
I even enjoyed the early cheesy, goofy, kiddy, stories. (C'mon, Robotnik wearing an Elvis wig is comedy gold.)
i don't think many people even know this exists aside from "yeah there are sonic comics"
yeah, I am so sad about that too, because around 160 is when it actually got pretty great. The stuff that came before was no longer actually needed, but it added context at least. But god, the love triangles and assassination of Sally's character was sooooo painful. Geoffrey St. John was the absolute worst if it wasn't the echidna comics.
That Tammy bit is wild. At first I was giggling at this wierd chick being into the fat robot cartoon man, but turned to straight up guffawing when they responded in character as Sonic offering to set her up with some guys at the office.
Honestly though its pretty creepy
@@DragonHead771Which part? The lady joking about being into Eggman or the editors joking about offering themselves up instead? It ain't that deep bro.
@@DragonHead771not really lol. Everyone there is clearly having a joke around there. I sincerely doubt this woman ever took any of them up on that offer. Besides what’s creepy about asking people on dates?
@doronaznible7298 the fact that these were all three old men and the girl in question looked like a teenager would be the weird and creepy part, back then comic book artists were openly depraved people
@@TheRxtnNerotbf, It didn't seem like They actually gave her their numbers or any way to contact them personally, Just their First name, so there's that
1:14:03
Friendly reminder to all Sally Acorn fans that this is how Kenders WANTED Sally's story to end, with her dying thinking her beloved Sonic had betrayed her (think about that the next time you want to claim Ian "hates her").
Ian still took down a fan site that had all the Sonic comics, came up the "Sonic Mandates", and had sent his fans to silence people, know it's about Sally, but eh, he still has his crimes
@@SapphireKnight675
Ian follows the mandates specifically because that's how his higher-ups want the comics to be written, nothing less and nothing more.
I don't know what "crimes" you're talking about, but Ian never sent his fans to silence people. If anyone would be behind taking down sites that had their Comics on it would be Sega.
Unless you have actual evidence aside from second-hand information or out-of-context claims, don't bother spreading false info just because you hate the guy's work.
@@darknessrising2453 Sonic ScanF had a letter why they took the comics section down mentioning Ian and a BumbleKing site, or check out lance jerkov, How one man's ego is killing Sonic, at 27-00 and 32-26, and now thinking about it, they're more petty than crimes
@@SapphireKnight675
And just like that, you killed off your argument.
Lance, like many other Anti-Ian fans, outright despises anything and everything connected to Ian to the point where he'll spread out-of-context lies in a vain attempt to force him off the comics, just like that nonsensical U4S movement.
If anyone's petty, it's him and anyone who supports his nonsense.
Unlike those idiots, I do actual research on his history instead of just looking for excuses to pretend he's the worst thing to happen to the Sonic fandom.
Unless you have some actual physical/visual evidence that isn't backed by biased haters or out-of-context info, don't bother me again.
@@SapphireKnight675 You've got absolutely no idea how any of that works and Sega came up with the mandates, not Ian.
As someone who grew up reading this series instead of anything remotely cool, I thoroughly enjoyed this. I said this on Cybershell's recent Penders video, but Archie Sonic is such a weirdly fascinating piece of pop culture. It went on for so long and deviated so much from its source material, to the point where for a while it was basically one of the lead writer's own weird sci-fi story with Sonic characters in the background.
But then under Ian Flynn is actually got pretty damn good, even making those weird original elements compelling. It's a wild ride for a series.
I agree.
"give me a break he was drawn in silhouette" that is honestly one of the best 4th wall breaks ever. I should read early archie sonic
Agreed
❤❤❤❤❤
Read it all so you can experience the rollercoaster itself
I can't tell you how long I've wanted someone to do full retrospective of the entire comic rather than just go over the cliff-notes. Its such a fascinating and off the wall story that other videos only scratch the surface of.
There's the archie sonic digest. It's goes over the run from it's first issue to it's last.
@@fightingmedialounge519
Ok.
I agree.
Man, when I realized Sally was replaced by a robo-doppelgänger (and the stink, let’s be real) in her own series, I knew Sally was heading for trouble. Early Sally was very endearing, thanks for reminding me of that. Boy did I hate Geoffrey for being stitched onto Sally, ugh. And Max, ooh boy. The exposition dialogue from the characters got grating, that was what initially put me off of reading it all until I came back years later. I actually did love Elias the most out of all side characters, felt like he was the only Acorn that was taken care of the most.
Things like Sally's temporary replacement have me grateful for those like Tania Del Rio, giving Sally someone else (being Nicole becoming more than just a device) to talk with that isn't shoved as her love interest- which is interesting considering the buildup Sally had with Nicole in the reboot, being not forced at all and more another look at their dynamic.
Sally deserved better than being sidelined by generic designs and Pedo Skunk.
Gotta say, after finishing this video its better than I thought it would be. I've never heard so much praise for Archie outside of the stuff written by Ian Flynn, really just telling it how it is and finding the bright spots from the stuff people kinda stop thinking about because its not the weird stuff that became a meme
Yeah it always bothered me that the wider internet discourse about the comic seemed to be "wow the Archie Sonic comic was really weird and bad" when there were always actually genuinely interesting or good parts in the series from the start.
@@tigerfestivals5137 The issue is pretty much Ken Penders and his team causing a lot of meme mess spread throughout the fandom. And the Comic through Penders kinda became a Scapegoat of hate.
@@cragl3yman343 Ken isn't the only one who made dumb or meme worthy stories and art though
@@tigerfestivals5137 You misread what I typed. I meant that on the Internet Ken Penders and his team were memed to death on the internet. Lowart here is showing the real truth through this video and the future parts :P
@@tigerfestivals5137 I haven't really seen anyone say there wasn't anything good about archie sonic when it started. It just gets memed on so much because it has ideas that this franchise hasn't seen before,and hasn't seen since.
seeing footage of ken penders talking about people wanting to kill antoine caused me to absolutely die laughing for whatever reason
I agree.
Whenever a character in a comic is just explaining what is happening in the panel it tells me one of two things usually, either they had no idea what to write and thought they wouldn't keep the reader's attention if there isn't at least one speech bubble on each panel. Or they thought the art was so bad that the reader would struggle to understand what was going on in the given scene.
i think it also means that the writers are treating it as a novel instead of as a comic book, so they end up writing paragraphs explaining whats going on when you can literally see it
I agree.
@@ketaminepoptarts
I agree.
A R A K I
The thing of "dragons can't tell lies" is actually something that exist in a lot of medias, is especially common in stuff like japanese media, i probably watch 5 or more animes with dragons saying some kind of stuff like that, a huge part of the media like making dragons be "royal" and "pure" wanting to have "honorable fights" and etc.
Of course this don't apply to ALL media, but is a trope that actually does exist.
funny how in certain media the Dragon does nothing *but* lie.
It's not a bad concept for a dragon being completely honest and truthful.
It would have worked if the story gave ANY attempts to tell us that nugget of an important fact before it came into play
Geoffrey St John being in any romance with Sally is even worse because Geoffrey has to be well into adulthood.
For context, Sally is 17 and her brother is 21. In a flashback to when her brother was a baby and before Sally was born, Geoffrey is shown to be kid. Meaning he is way older than 21😬
The skunk is a predator? Who woulda thunk it?
Nah bro, you're telling me that this character is a pedophile? Naaaaaaaah 💀💀💀💀 but then again, I'm not surprised.
🦨= 👴🏻 " You killed the woman I love. "
Then Ken Penders tries to use squirrel years and Utah's age of consent to not look creepy yet only looks more creepy and petty.
The ammount of effort you took to not pile all the blame for this onto penders is really admirable, even people who KNOW he wasn't the only one responsible for the wreckage will usually hyperfocus on the pattern of the downwards spiral and him switching to a solo writer happening around the same time. Its super easy to look to the future and judge the past on the light that future casts, but you went the extra mile and stuck from the perspective of the comic at that time.
There were a lot of people that brought down the book. (though I still think Penders took it way too far.)
@@daelen.cclark I would still personally point the finger at penders going solo as what shifted everything, the others had some stumbles but with one of the centerfolds of the series being what Kenders wrote, a lot of the other creators worst traits would mix with his to be even worse than before.
But I do like that there's a perspective out there that tries to approach it with more fairness and objectivity than me.
@@Fanatic_Foremem
Agreed. But I’m still glad Flynn came on board, despite Sega’s restrictions.
(Penders did kinda make everyone else worse, didn’t he?)
Yeah, that must have taken a lot of restraint, Penders is waaaaaay too easy to hate.
While of course alot of his issues are widely visible, he is a red herring, none of the problems he produced would have happened without poor oversight and a myriad of other issues.
Archie Robotnik/Eggman is absolutely terrifying and despite how messy Endgame was that final fight between him and Sonic was amazingly climactic. Honestly his "return" has to be one of the most dread-inducing things I read as a child
I agree.
Lowart somehow getting Flynn and Penders replying in the same thread is an expert act of diplomacy
I agree.
I'm so glad someone is finally dissecting the entirety of Archie Sonic this way! Please continue making these!
I agree.
Every single character talking the same is the biggest problem with Ken Penders' writing. He's incapable of writing different characters, he only writes Ken Penders.
Exactly, Ken is good at creating concepts and characters, but he can't write them well.
Agreed
@@DipperPines1986 honestly he reminds me way too much of George Lucas
It’s truly a shame that the span of the story that had, by a *massive* margin, the most intricate and detailed art had to also be plagued by PendersWriting™️
@The Eye Creature it’s because they both do lots of world building and have good ideas but can’t write characters and especially dialogue for shit.
Archie Sonic is my favorite Sonic continuity, pre-reboot especially, massive warts and all. It was so incredible as a kid, sometime in 2008, to find a comic doing what I'd always done in my head, blend all these characters and concepts from across Sonic media together. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about it, to talk about the Gallagher era, surprisingly, with such thoroughness and sincerity for what you loved and hated. I feel that discussion about Archie Sonic in the larger fandom has deteriorated almost entirely in recent years, particularly for anything pre-Ian.
The series gets treated like it's some bizarre footnote in Sonic's history, one that's only really brought up through tired Penders memes and misinformation. There's a huge barrier to entry, and a lot of people are more interested in a Sonic that's more on-brand to what's current nowadays, but I'm glad there are still some folks out there taking The Ride and finding stuff to enjoy.
What's the misinformation? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just curious.
@@papagarchomp6326Things like Penders suing Archie (Archie sued him- over contract disputes and Penders wanting to be paid for all of his characters), those who think every pre-Flynn character is Penders-made (Mina was Bollers, Athair was by Gallagher and Holo-Lynx form Nicole was Tania Del Rio), etc.
As someone who will defend the Reboot, I kind of wish IDW was more integrated with game-comic synergy, instead of "games canon move on".
There's a chance because Sally and the SatAM cast is owned by DiC, they could be bought, but this isn't likely. Spinball returning to canon does make you wonder however.
@@papagarchomp6326 More misinformation than I care to list, really. It's not just one thing, it's a bunch of little things that spread and mutate. Generally, I'll say there's a lot of fans, those who have never touched the series, who pull up material from Archie out of context and fill in the blinks themselves with false information and half-truths. This can extend past the comic itself to the people who worked on it, or the various behind-the-scenes details and drama.
@@amesstarline5482 I think Ken made Sega too paranoid to use Sally & Co. as they probably fear getting into legal battles over them too, with whomever their creators are...
And Ken did kinda try to copyright his characters behind their backs, (and flat out admitted this on his website) and got very upset over "Sonic Chronicles" kinda referencing his stories, (particularly how the echidna brotherhood being a little similar to his Dark Echidna Legion, which according to Bioware was an intentional harmless homage to Archie Sonic, but Ken took it as "ripping him off") so he's not entirely innocent either.
The Penders incidents also lead to the reboots of the comics.
So it's a little understandable why he's become a bit disliked by Sonic fans. I've even heard stories of fans whom had bad experiences with him...
Regardless, I do think it's unfair when people say "all" his stories and characters were bad, when honestly they weren't. In fact, he made some pretty good ones, and he helped expand the comic's world building. Even writer Ian Flynn was a huge fan of Ken's works, and build on his stories/characters. So even Ian fans owe some of Ian's best stories to Ken.
@@beauwalker9820 Despite how Sally wasn't even introduced by him.. I'm more willing to bet the Sally situation is a delayed side effect of the Depiction Merger, where some Western Elements (like the surname Robotnik, Chili Dogs, and the brotherly dynamic of Sonic and Tails) carried over, but Western-formed characters like Sally, Tekno from Fleetway, and Alucion from the French Adventures book are no-goes. This may be a similar reason as to why we don't have the TV Show Caveman from Mario World in later games, or any allusion to Captain N in Smash Bros.
Geoffrey should have been the traitor. It would make sense. The reason why he stirs up drama is because he is trying to tear the freedom fighters apart and making them distrust each other enough so that when HE dresses up as Sonic and cuts the rope everyone jumps to the conclusion and it makes sense. No stupid Snively vision and no dumb Dragons can't tell lies.
ah but that'd mean making penders' favourite insert character the bad guy
fortunately, Ian FLynn apparently also thought that would be a good idea....
Talking as someone who grew up reading the comedic first issues up until the metallic arc, I have to admit I appreciate this retrospective not just for covering stuff I didn’t read, but also to give me validation that there WAS actual charm in those early comics.
Friends use to tell me those stories were way too childish and kiddy and weren’t worth reading, so again, kinda needed to see that.
Can’t wait to see how much more batshit insane this gets from here
I agree.
I'm not even much of a sonic fan but I'm I find the insane storytelling surrounding these characters incredibly interesting. THIS VIDEO though, took it to a completely new level. What an insane ride going through your experience with these comics. Thank you so much for making this; I can't wait for the next one!
Agreed.
I've always been curious as to what exactly *happens* in the Archie comics, and this is satisfying that curiosity. What a ride!
I agree.
You have no idea how i've been yearning to see someone do an entire retrospective of the archie series.
as much it's fun to poke at the out of context panels, bizarre artwork, and penders. reading them through and through brings an entire interesting ride in it's own right, and in fact it shows the series has quite a ton of fun concepts we may never get to see again, for better or worse.
and honestly that's what brings it's charm to me growing up with those comics and why it took some time to read into idw as funny it sounds.
After watching this retrospective i'm severely Looking forward to part 2!
you've captured everything about archie's run during the early years, a fantastic run through while giving it a completely fair shot as most people would resort to dismiss it for simply just being wacky, definitely a good recommend for anyone wanting to know what Archie's run and why people enjoyed it among a good reason why it felt sorrowing when the entire comic series ended in 2017.
for anything to mention, people who've read archie sonic's stories for the longest of time, the next set of issues all the way up to 159 considered the dark age and to be quite honest, it's a fireworks festival of insanity that amazes me how the comics run survived through that period
There's actually been a couple channels that have done a full archie sonic retrospective.
The awfulness of the overnarration really shows why the "Show Don't Tell" rule is so important, especially in a visual media like a comic book.
Agreed ❤❤❤❤❤
your videos got me into the Archie sonic comics and i got to say, they are a WILD RIDE AND I ABSOLUTLY LOVE IT, thank you for that.
Agreed
Sigh, I truly miss the Archie Sonic run. For all its faults, I loved it wholeheartedly.
I loved how unique it was and how it really did do things you never saw anywhere else. I miss the family that the characters were given. I miss Jules and Locke. I miss Julie-Su and her relationship with Knuckles. I miss the freedom fighters.
I miss how vast the world was and how there was so many unique things yoy never saw anywhere else.
The cool villains like Dr. Finitevus and Enerjak too the sympathetic but still evil Snively.
Sadly, all these things and so much more are now lost and it is depressing to think about. Losing well over a decade of such writing is a true lose. Espacially when it was in an era that was still going strong and had a healthy fan base. Yet now it the story was abruptly ended and that's heartbreaking.
I wish things were different. That it hadn't ended like this. Sigh, I wish things were able to at least conclude. Part of me hopes one day it could come back, but sadly we all know that's lower then winning the lotto.
Wouldn’t exactly say the fanabse was healthy back then. Archie went through multiple stages of the sonic fandom.
Well the problem is that many of those things you've mentioned were genuinely expanded after Ian Flynn took over (not all, but many), and that's after issue 160, I think, that's a lot of issues without a lot of substance
Julie-Su had become my favorite female character, until she was latter dumbed-down & made more girly.
Man, I miss Shard...
I love Antoine... his voice actors (english and pt-br) and his expressions and stories OMG! I LOVE ALL THE CARE THAT THEY MADE DRAWING HIM! IT'S AMAZING! They sure had fun.
Also... he is that snob rich boy from Planet Survival... is that a Sonic reference or the other way around?
Siiim eu tbm
Dude, you perfectly portrait how it felt reading most of the middle chapters
I agree.
I really appreciate the effort and thoughtful analysis put into this video. I grew up reading this comic every month for a straight 24 years. I love the comic greatly, but yeah, I know it has lots of flaws. I'm happy that you read it and can acknowledge its merit while while still administering a fair critique. I hope you do a continuation video. The later issues are really weird and a lot of fun.
Me too
I actually unironically like the Eggman design in the center of the page at 2:49:32, I would love to see this design actually come to fruition at some point. That eggman looks like he would ride a motorcycle and have huge tattoos on his biceps.
Eggman Melee Build
Although the Archie comic’s undeniably went down under at some point till it’s bitter end in 2017, it is nice to appreciate the charm and good qualities it had in the early comics even after Endgame. Also if you think the Archie Comic’s were crazy, I suggest you take a look at the UK Fleetway Sonic Comic’s sometime. They’re so absurd it makes the Archie Universe look like a cakewalk lmao. Also CANNOT WAIT FOR PART 2!!
I agree.
I grew up reading the Archie comics from 2008 onwards and I was a small child, single digits, but as someone who is now an adult I can look back and see not only the flaws but the charm of the series. It means a lot to see someone cover something that was such a large part of my childhood with such depth and love for a series people often find insufferable! Plus, this video is an amazing recap and great listen! Thank you for this video! You just gained a subscriber :)
Damn you got in during the peak
I agree.
@@drifter402
I agree.
@@drifter402 ohhh yeah I got to miss a lot of the early shenanigans and confusing plots where it felt like they didn’t know what they were doing lol. I believe the first one I picked up was actually the jailbreak arc of scrouge!
Honestly, this video kinda gives me an appreciation for the incredibly tricky balancing act Sonic stories have to pull - they work best when there's serious stakes involved to make it more than just silly cartoon antics but with just the right balance of goofy to keep it from edgy grimdark BS.
Some of the games strike that balance intentionally (S3&K, Sonic Mania, Sonic CD), some of them (sort of) unintentionally (Sonic Adventure), and some go way too far in either direction (Sonic 06, Shadow the Edgehog, Sonic Colours)
Shadow the Hedgehog using a Gun is inherently goofy, because he’s supposed to be way faster than a bullet.
@@whaleping i always thought the goofiness appeal of shadow with a gun comes from him being a silly cartoon hedgehog wielding a deadly hyper-realistic weapon but that's also really great. huge fan
tell me you haven't played any of those games without telling me lmao.
@@Blanktester685 Ive played s3&k, mania, cd, adventure, and colours. i haven't played 06 or edgy hedgy but i've seen a full lets play of the former and a decent chunk of the latter
None of these are even remotely your own thoughts or opinions. You just got all that from other people who've said the same thing verbatim, instead of thinking for yourself.
I just watched a 2 hour, 56 minute, and 50 second retrospective about Sonic comics with no breaks. I feel great!
Agreed.
This video unironically is helping me on what to do in comics and what not to do in comics. That and I adore your writing for the do it yourself comic! Very funny (love the part where the comic bubble couldn't handle more dialog)
Agreed
Archie Sonic is incredible; so many things came together to make a comic so crazy and out there that no other comic will ever come around like it again, for better or worse.
All that narration actually has an explanation; the writers of Archie Sonic all came from superhero comics (DC mostly), and that kind of dramatic narration is omnipresent there, and a ton of old superhero comics would have characters describe what was happening because the sequential art medium was still pretty new. So the writers of Archie Sonic kept a lot of those old habits.
I agree.
Bravo! This is the first time I've seen a video cover Archie Sonic beyond Ken Penders and memeable images. Can't wait for part 2!
On a side note, I'm a big fan of Archie Sonic, but I think a big part of that is because I started out by keeping up on the Mobius Encyclopedia (its fan wiki) while Ian Flynn was getting his feet wet as lead writer. You hit nail on the head when you said that a bunch of the ideas are great conceptually, and it took me a while to realize how wild and insane the comic was at times before Ian took over.
wait so you never went of Twitter people are always talking about all the arcs
It's something I appreciate about what Flynn helped with Archie- understanding Sonic as a game franchise and toning down on the constant adding of characters (until they had to in the Reboot). I mean, the Secret Freedom Fighters helped Elias become something other than a male Sally replacement "heir" and brought back both Larry Lynx and Harvey Who from their one-off roles. Almost reinventing and revising the Substitute Freedom Fighters.
While I don't know much for others, Penders didn't play any Sonic and Jon Gray seemingly did, considering the appearance of Marble Garden.
@@amesstarline5482 I like their work more for how out their thing could get all the art styles an more moody atmosphere at times hehe
Yeah it's great to finally see someone cover the entire thing instead of specific controversies. And I can't wait for part 2
I still have a lot of love for Endgame. I agree that it's contrived and unfocused and full of Penders' ideocentricies that haven't aged well, but I appreciate it as a grand finale. The fact is that, as you brought up, it was very likely that Archie was going to get canceled. They didn't know if there would be anything after the milestone, so it only makes sense that it would end up feeling a little rushed. The fact that it's as good as it is is an accomplishment in and of itself. And that ending, woo that ending. The perfect fight.
I think the longer "Director's Cut" featured in "Sonic Super Special," and "Sonic Archives" was much better. I think if more people saw that, they might like Endgame better.
Though, of course it still has flaws like the Dulcy bit, and such.
Same here
Best video essay I’ve seen in a long time I never wanted it to end. I have been a fan of all versions of the comics and to see someone focus on the positives as well as the negatives means so much to me. I cried at this video. I laughed at this video and I will definitely be watching this over and over again for many years to come
Agreed
That "Do It Yourelf Sonic" felt like a snapcube fandub and I absolutely love it
Theres never enough love or promotion for Archie Sonic.
Maybe because the detailing that happened because the writers been given too mutch freedom and archie's court failure against pender!
I don’t love the pre-reboot comics. There’s way too many karma houdinis and the heroes suffer too much. Mostly Sonic. I definitely prefer the post-reboot comics.
Mega Collection was pretty generous to make sure they squeezed at least SOME into the extras though. SEGA, whether or not they will openly admit it with frequency, considers the Archie comics to be important part of Sonic history
@@supersonicfan7514 I disagree, alot of bad guys eventually got what they deserved, and if nothing bad ever happened to the good guys there would be no conflicts, story arcs, or adventures. Things always worked out if you read more of them.
@@erikbihari3625 granted, now it feels like IDW hardly has any freedom. Heck, they aren't even allowed to use old pre-Sonic Adventure characters, (like Mighty, Ray, or Nack) except in "Classic Sonic" style anniversary one shots that aren't part of the IDW-verse...
So I just finished the video, and I gotta say…this is the best retrospective on Archie Sonic I’ve seen in a long time.
It feels like any discussion or video about Archie Sonic gets overshadowed by nothing but Ken Penders’ contributions and the bad that it’s basically all anyone ever talks about anymore. It makes me really happy that you gave it a fair chance, and ESPECIALLY listing off artist/writer’s names to show that it wasn’t just one guy. My only complaint is that I wish you talked about Karl Bollers, but still.
Really can’t wait for your other videos on Archie Sonic!
As the co writer for this video I can tell you that was intentional. We are saving a discussion for him next video
We originally had a section on Karl Bollers here - but we decided it was could come across as mean-spirited following a lot of purposefully extreme complaining. As such, we moved it to later, where bringing him up will hopefully feel nicer.
I'm happy you enjoyed the video though! :)
@@Lowart I'm curious (and want to torment you with content to read through)...
Have you considered doing a video on Homestuck (in particular running from 4/13/09-10/25/16) before?
Is there any dread at the thought of tackling it, or would it just be a breeze after the 290 Sonic Archie Comics? :V
@@higueraft571 Christ, are you trying to kill the man???
@@StinkTerios Yes.
And then kill his 3 Doomed Timeline Selves, and Prospit/Derse self, then at least a few Dream Bubble Ghosts, then just do it again.
Then make a poorly recieved sequel to THEN kill him again a few more times :V
Using the old OVA soundtrack during the Mecha Madness section was a beautiful touch. Couldn't have chosen a better backing track list.
Same for Final Fever from Sonic CD when Robo-Robotnik's "autobiography" broadcast plays, really sells the weight of the moment.
Agreed ❤
@@ExaltedUriel
Agreed ❤❤❤❤
Robotnik and/or Eggman are proof that villains don't NEED to have depth. They just have to be *fun*. This depends on what a story's tone is, and for Sonic, he fits. An egotistical embodiment of hatred could be written to have nuance every now and then. I think a lot about this scene in the more recent IDW comics where Starline asks Eggman why make theme parks instead of efficiently using all resources, and he just says "I like theme parks". He sees the world as his vanity project, and won't settle for less. It's great.
Towards the end where it gets REEAALLY spicy it gets me thinking about how unsatisfied I was when Sonic SatAM ended. Snively was taking over, Robotic defeated, and we meet a mysterious creature with red eyes while Snively says "and I'm NOT ALOoNNE!" like ugh! I want closure on that ending so bad. It was a great series and same for Underground too --they never carried out the vow lol
I agree.
for the record red eyed guy was apparently going to be ixis naugus
so, like how the comics did for a while, naugus was gonna replace robotnik as the big bad
As someone who wants to be the master of all Sonic knowledge, this is the PERFECT video for me. I don’t know how I stumbled upon it, but I’m glad I did. Reminds me of Game Apologist. :)
This 3 hour video is a great “summary” of Part 1/4 of Archie Sonic.
The editing throughout this is amazing! Great job to you and the collaborators!
Agreed.
I love how Ken Penders goes from just a writer to the start of the corruption that really messed the characters up (with Geoffrey and Knuckles being the best examples)
I agree 👍
This is the best video about Archie Sonic I think anyone will ever make
Agreed
I've been curious about the Sonic comic for a long time but didn't know how to get into it since I knew it has a lot of side stories and what not. Thank you for laying it all out in such a comprehensive way. I look forward to watching the rest of these videos!
Àgreed
Don't have the time to watch this right now, but I already know this going to be good.
If you say so. But that makes one of us!
Hey dude! Did you ever get to finish the video? If so what are your thoughts?
@@KirbySonicTeam I did. As context, I briefly read some of the Archie sonic comics in the mid to late 2000s, and had no idea what was going on most of the time with all the non-game characters.
This video was a pretty excellent rundown of the peaks and valleys of the early comic, which I'd simply never seen before. A lot of the background, from what I can remember, makes a lot more sense knowing what came before. The early tone caught me a bit by surprise, so much more comedic then what I remember the comic being in my generation. Lowart's breakdown of what made this characters and situations likable was quite excellent. It seems like a quite fun serial, and a miracle in a way that it went on as long as it did. I am avidly anticipating further installments, as the breakdown of the comic gets closer to what I personally know.
Sometimes it’s hard to believe that Ken Penders wasn’t always “so we have these hyper sexualized echidnas that I really like *sniffs painting of Juilie Sue* (I forgot how to spell her name and I’m not looking it up) and we’re gonna give the characters sex lives to make them more “mature””
Don't forget Tails finally getting a girlfriend but
Nah, CHAD BIG BROTHER SONIC IS HERE TO...
steal the girlfriend of his... probably by now 10 year old best friend...
Yeah, he went off the deep end a bit. It’s like what Chris Chibnall did to Doctor Who only much less forgivable.
My favourite thing about the comics (especially being an artist myself was that they had a fan art page! I always bought the comics and looked forward to the fanart page! Sonic was also super supportive about all the art. I loved it so much.
Agreed.
Ugh it kills me that they got rid of Antoine's cowerdice right before that reveal of why he wears his outfit, because if he was still a coward, that reveal would actually work very well. I love the idea that he isn't a soldier, but is desperately trying to live up to the memory of his father by fighting despite his fear.
Also man, total missed chance for a moment with Knuckles, usually the most suspicious of Sonic, be the ONE person who refuses to believe that he killed Sally.
Agreed
I’d love to see on the UK’s Sonic the Comic. It often gets misrepresented by a lot of Archie fans, but it has a real charm all of it’s own.
I have started with the UK version and after issue like 100 it gets really good the stuff beforehand is slow and unfocused also since I am in exactly issue 125 I really enjoyed
How Sonic said the Zones should have their own representation in the democratic issue and that was my headcanon and what I saw with the forces game like 2 nations Eggman v Sonic but not exactly because also Sonic in my mind is above the conflict so Sally was needed but anyway I am rambling
My girlfriend sees roboticized uncle chuck for the first time and says
"Why does Metal Sonic have a Mustache?"
I don't mind
THANK YOU SO MUCH FINALLY SOMEONE CAN GO IN DEPTH ABOUT THESE COMICS. I can't wait for part 2
Agreed.
You know when playing the games I never really thought about Sonic having green eyes or new shoes. I guess I assumed that he just got new shoes and his eyes were always green (maybe he just got contacts). Never would I assume that Sonic ran around the world into a time beam and did something incomprehensible that eventually led to his eyes becoming green and getting new shoes. I understand that Comics often change designs when the character changes design in a more popular media, but why not just have Sonic get a new pair of shoes and just start coloring his eyes green? I wouldn’t even question that!
I’ve come to find this way more interesting. It’s creative, not retcon lazy.
That early Spaziante art still fills me with joy. As a JP Sonic fan I loved all the little references to Saturn and such in his art.
Me too
"I killed and I will my Sonic kill you"
- when you read the thumbnail incorrectly
True
God I wish I saw this sooner. I just binged this whole video in one night and I don’t regret it. The Archie comics played a massive role in my childhood growing up, so this video was a treat for me. I remember my first experience with this story being an old RUclips video paying tribute to this green Sonic lookalike in a black jacket (that being Scourge), and I remember thinking he looked cool… because I was a dumb kid and an evil Sonic fighting a good Sonic was all I needed to feel happy.
Afterwards, I didn’t think too much of it, but I did want to read those comics having found out that they existed, and one day my luck turned round as my school recently acquired a collection of a bunch of the old gag issues (starting all the way at issue 0). And I loved every moment of them. The absurdity, the campiness, the characters, I enjoyed every minute. For awhile, I hadn’t even noticed that the series was getting more serialised and serious, I was just having fun. Then Endgame came along… and at the time I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Sonic’s been framed, everyone has turned against him, he has a cool prison escape and fights Robotnik to the death. It was exiting, it was tense, it was… SO DUMB. But it was also just so damn ridiculous I couldn’t help but love it. It made me think the comic had ended and this was the last story, so I stopped following it.
But in the back of my mind, I remembered him, Scourge. I never DID get to see him? Sure, I saw evil Sonic, but I never got to see how he wound up turning green. I then looked through to see if I had missed anything online, and low and behold… hundreds of issues awaited me. I believe I started the series back up again once Sonic had gotten his more modern design (with the green eyes), meaning I experienced the glory of Robotnik’s return and I just went on from there.
This video was a treat through and through and awakened so much nostalgia within me. It also helped shine light on all the stuff I ended up skipping, which was really interesting to see. Also, just watching the insanity as you tried to comprehend everything was so damn funny yet also relatable as I went back a few years later to reread a lot of the older Archie comics like Endgame and Sonic Quest again, and I truly felt similar levels of bewilderment. I’m so glad I watched all of this. I had already been a follower of your stuff for a bit, but somehow I ended up missing this upon release. I’m grateful I still ended up finding it regardless. I can’t wait to see you talk about everything that goes down in the next part.
Agreed.
Man, I love when this guy covers Sonic stuff. *Especially the Archie lore.* Came from the Knuckles 101 video, keep up the good work 👏
All the stuff about needing to read the Knuckles spin-off to make sense of anything is funny because this is standard stuff in comic books. As a person familiar with comic books, this stuff is expected. But when you take a step back and look at it you realize how absolutely psychotic the practice is.
The spin-offs with required reading, the overdone narration, and the ever-changing roster of writers and artists certainly all have been and continue to be problems in Marvel and DC comics. They're some of the problems that made reading manga feel so much better because of their absence.
I agree.
@@Haze01SmashI agree.
The music at the beginning immediately took me back. To this day, it's my favorite music to have on in the background while reading comics.
Agreed
The worst thing is, the paneling and expressions in Nate's backstory and the comic in general are strong enough to the point where I can make out 90% of the story without dialogue.
When I can tell exactly what's happening without paragraph of text you don't need those paragraphs of text.
Good point
I can’t wait for you to go onto the rest of the series!!! Honestly in my opinion it gets insanely weirder but after issue 160 it’s all up hill by that point!
I agree with that issue 160 was when it started getting good since that was Ian and Tracy yardleys first comic
This is a genuine piece of art Lowart. I'm such a big fan of Sonic and watching this has really got me wanting to finally read these comics! Can't wait for the next part!
Agreed.
9:44 Sonic really just said 1 mile in the longest way possible.
True
Y'know the dumbest thing about the Sonic/Sally/Geoffrey love triangle? They already set up Knuckles for that role. They established a history between him and Sally, and showed that Sonic was jealous of this, on top of the fact that they were _already_ rivals who would fight each other all the time. But then they just kind of dropped that idea and created Geoffrey to fill that role. Instead of further adding more tension to Sonic and Knuckles' rivalry, which would have been logical and entertaining, they shoehorned in a skunk nobody knows.
I want you to know that this Archie Series is my go to listen when I need to work now
Thanks so much! IM glad you enjoy it
Agreed.
@@KirbySonicTeam hi Mr . waffles
This video was insane as it is, here I was naively thinking almost 3 hours would cover up everything, but a PART2?! This is hands down gonna be the best retrospectives I've ever watched. Great work, man, and keep it up!
I get the feeling that it was no coincidence that Robotnik was reintroduced in 1999 a few months after the release of Sonic Adventure. It’s safe to say that Sonic Adventure injected some life into the franchise and generated some renewed interest, thus meaning that some higher up likely wanted Robotnik to be brought back but for him to be in his Adventure design (the same likely happened for Sonic). Honestly I’m here for that as I am a huge fan of the adventure era designs of all the characters and Sega likely wanted to keep the designs consistent across media platforms.
This is literally what happened, yeah, I had the issues and I believe they stated as much in the back of the book.
Wow, what a wonderful, unexpected video to come across my timeline. I read these comics growing up. I remember reading endgame when I was a teenager. I really appreciate that you found the good stuff in these stories - enjoying the silliness and fun of the early stories and appreciating the concepts of the more serious stories even when the execution wasn't quite there.
Speaking of execution: what a well edited and scripted video. I can't imagine the work that went into collecting all those 100s of panels and separating them. And I laughed out loud when Tammy got a final shout-out near the end of the video. It's amazing how long some memories stick in your mind - I remember reading that sonic-gram as a kid.
I don't want to be too effusive with my praise, but this might just be The World's Most Way-Past-Cool RUclips Video.
I used to be into Archie Sonic, but nowadays I had almost forgotten any of the storylines. The video was a cool trip down the memory lane for me. Seeing again the good, the bad, and the ugly 😃
Àgreed
I thought I was going to just put this on in the background while playing a game, but ended up so sucked into something I've never read, from a RUclipsr I've never seen, for the whole nearly 3 hours. Great work on this
Man, this is some nostalgia. I started reading the comics when I was 4 years old, back when issue 15 came out. I still have a bunch of these comics in my basement, but I know a good chunk got damaged when it flooded. I remember more of the first 25 issues than the later ones weirdly enough. It's interesting to see how the series went from a fun, gag filled romp to a more serious thing. I don't remember when exactly I stopped reading them; maybe 2006? By that point, the series became more confusing than a soap opera. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this series, especially to see if you can make some sense of some of those late-era (for me) plots. Assuming you do continue. (I still have an hour left in this vid as I make this comment, so idk what you say at the end)
I put off watching this video for a long time because of its length, and how I just didn’t have the time to watch it, but I’m happy I finally did. This is an amazing retrospective on a series that meant a lot to me as a kid,and it still does now in a way. You helped remind me just how much FUN the early Archie stuff was! Thanks for that 👍.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Wonderful video! I had no idea that Antoine had better moments in the comic. Indeed, he kinda sucked in SatAM, but I like how the comic stories you mentioned didn't change his inherent character while still making him likable. His cowardice never made him unlikable; it was how he never rose above it in the show that made him lame. In fiction, some of my favorite characters are those with cowardice that rise above it to do the right thing, because being scared of a situation is...very relatable, to be honest. Bravery is overcoming the fears you have, and so such bravery is all the more satisfying coming from a character who has many fears.
The title of the video is "What No One Tells You About Archie Sonic" and then it's like, literally EVERYTHING, in great detail. Good video
I've been looking for a video like this.
I never had the privellege of reading the comics or watching SatAM, but I did get to enjoy the first issue via Sonic Mega Collection +.
I did not expect to enjoy it all too much, but I found myself getting this inexplicably giddy feeling even just reading through the first issue.
I've always considered getting into this series, but there's just so much to cover that it's kind of intimidating to start.
This is scratching that itch I have had for a long time, great video!