In my opinion the Tallboy would have been a better point of comparison. I think the Hightower tries to be something different all together - more of a light Enduro bike. We used to have a name for that category, it was called All Mountain. Not really in the same kind of bike as the Smuggler and the Tallboy. Great video though!
So with riding all 3 bikes, I do think the new Smuggler rides more like the new Hightower then the Tallboy, not exactly in the 130/140 configuration but closer IMO. If you have rode the new smuggler and Hightower V3 then I think you might agree. Also you can make the smuggler a 140/150mm bike super easy which I did in March (ran a Fox 36 Grip 2 150mm for the fork) and it has almost identical GEO to the Hightower when like that. Also I thought that made the bike feel almost identical to the new Hightower when in the longer travel configuration as well so that is why I put the smuggler up with the Hightower. I do agree a Tallboy VS Smuggler video would be rad, but it was not in the budget this time and I had no support from Santa Cruz or Transition for these videos. Sorry I wish I could make everyone happy!
Agree. But the companies couldn't be further apart in terms of bike philosophy. I enjoyed my Spire but my Megatower v2 is so much better. Transition is miles behind the quality and performance of SC bikes.
I tried to get a Tallboy! Wouldn’t have been for this test but I would definitely of done a comparison against the Smuggler. I had the V4 Tallboy and it’s still one of my favorite 120-130mm travel bikes, if not my favorite.
Transition make some great bikes; we carry Transition and Santa Cruz at my shop. However, Santa Cruz just have better built and more refined frames, better CS and warranties, are much easier to work on and require less service, and have a much higher resale value on the used market, etc, etc. Funny that so many (people who have never owned one) gripe about SC’s prices, when they actually may be the best value out there.
Yeah Santa Cruz definitely has the better quality, no doubts about it. I have a value video as a little bonus that will be coming out in a week or two and I talk a little more about all of that and especially with the new SC prices with the XO transmission and the sale prices on the original 2023 models it is one of the best value's, if not the in the test. I know I got rid of all my shorter travel bikes and will be looking to get a Tallboy here soon! I will say the prices they had 10 months ago, were too high but they have come down a lot and there shouldn't be much complaining about the new prices in my opinion!
Nice! I did try the bike with a 150mm Fox 36 and it was good for sure. I just liked the little bit lighter front end to make it a little more playful. That's good to hear the 2.4 Dissector is working. The tire that I had rubbing was the 2.4WT DHR II and transition said it shouldn't rub. Rubbed on both sides and checked the wheel to make sure it was true also, so weird deal but not a big deal I guess. The Dissector and the new 2.4 Forekaster that I am running both work awesome.
Love your review style. You touched on things others don't. It's not about any 1 single spec angle, but how they all work together collectively. SC has been doing this bike for a while and the cohesion of the V3 geometry is the best it's ever been. Just got a HT purple S-kit. More reasonably priced. $4900. The purple paint is amazing. Almost a work of art. The paint job is only outdone by how well this bike rides. I heard it described as it performs great on everything But the "ests". Absolutely agree with this description. While it can certainly handle the "est" category of terrain, it's Not going to be the best on the Rocky-est terrain, Steep-est, Narrow-est, Smooth-est, etc. But if you you're regularly riding terrain that's Not an "est" the HT crushes it and is the Best-est.😂 It's as close to a 1 quiver bike as there is in the market right now. If you want to ride the "est's" regularly get something more suited for that terrain. This bike is a Jack of all Trades, Master of Fun
Thank you I appreciate that and glad you are enjoying it! But yeah the purple color is awesome, it just was not available when I got my HT sadly. But you are spot on, if you're doing the gnarliest stuff then get a megatower or another full enduro bike. Enjoy that hightower and I hope you keep enjoying the videos as well! Thanks for the support!
If you look at the geo, and the smuggler being able to run 140/150 it’s a lot more like the Hightower then the Sentinel. I’ve rode the Sentinel before and it rides way bigger than any bike that I had on test for this series.
I just bought the same tire for the back of my smuggler. I am going to be PO'ed if it doesn't fit. I even went with the WT option on the tire grrr. I am still building my wheel set ONYX hubs and raceface ARC 35 rims hopefully my setup fits. Hopefully running the large frame helps me out.
Yeah it was a bummer, the Hightower had to get shipped out the next day so I had to get it done that evening. But thanks for the feedback on the drink, I’ve had others say they liked it, but good to hear both sides for sure.
Can you measure the gap between the chainstay and the front triangle where the pivot is? I have a larger gap on the non drive side, not sure if this is a 1 off, or standard? Thanks all
Hey, late to the party here… Have you run the smuggler 140mm rear option? If so, how’d that go? Have you been on that smuggler still? Still love it long term? The frame price has dropped and I’m thinking of pulling the trigger. I’d run it 150/140mm front/rear with a 36 and try and get that downhill build popping. Thoughts??
Hey, how would you compare the Smuggler against the Stumpjumper (non-evo) you reviewed a while back. I have seen your Spur vs Stumpy review but a Smuggler vs Stumpy would be awesome.
I have had a lot of questions on this, they are very similar! It has been over a year since I rode the regular Stumpy but from what I remember is that it climbs a little better than the Smuggler but the Smuggler descends just a tiny bit better. For the price and with the current sales on the Stumpy I would go for that though!
@@dialedmtb Thanks, that makes sense and what I was anticipating. I've had the Smuggler since launch and it is a great riding bike but it just doesn't feel worth the price tag. Fit, finish and stiffness is just not on par other similarly tier framesets. Just recently placed an order on a Stumpy frame + 2024 Fox Float.
@@sprungmass yeah I am with you, I am sure transition will have to lower their prices once 2024’s come out. They can’t stay in the 2022 price range any longer since all the top level brands are coming back down in price now.
Legit question here with the SDU vs the Fox that the Smugg comes stock with. I have the Lyrik on the front but have always preferred the SDU. Did you get any rides in with the Fox before you swapped over to the SDU?
Yeah I rode the bike with the Float X and a 34 to start, then swapped to the Pike and SDU. I think the fork made a bigger difference then the shock for sure. The Pike is amazing. The Float X is a lot more similar to the SDU than what the old DPX2 was so the only reason I would say it would be worth the money is if you want your suspension brands to match honestly.
Nice review. I see Forekaster on the rear of the Smuggler, which is a XC leaning tire vs. Dissector on rear of Hightower, which is a trail leaning tire. How much do you feel this impacted the comparison on speed and nimbleness?
Have you seen the new Forecaster? Maxxis did a full update on it (in the 2.4" size which I have on) and they wanted to make it clear that it is now a Trail tire that is very similar to the Dissector. I have weighed both of them and they are within 20g of each other and they feel pretty similar as a rear tire. Since the original tire I had on the rear of the transition rubbed I had to change it to this tire, which I do not think changed anything for the results since I have a lot of time on both of the tires, if anything it may of helped the Hightower.. by less then 5% in the tire category I would say.
Lack of rear tire clearance is inexcusable on a new model. Too bad. I run 180 rotors on my bikes with fine power. We just don’t have the sustained descents where I ride for the most part.
Yeah that is definitely a big bummer about the tire clearance. The 180mm rotors are fine for most of my local riding even though I still prefer 200 for my local stuff, but when I go out of town to ride and its steeper and gnarly I feel like its more of a need for sure.
@@dialedmtb I had my new bike "a Spur" upside down on the floor as I was setting up tubeless tires after 3 mellow rides putting my rear wheel back in when I noticed a half circle crack by the rear axle. I was very careful as this was a new bike and carbon. The paint flaked off and took some of the carbon with it. I have no idea how it could break so easy like it was fragile as glass, really bummed as I just got this bike and cost me a lot of money. So, they wouldn't replace it or wouldn't even let me buy a new rear triangle as they said they had limited inventory and it was just cosmetic damage and not structural. They were also rude and couldn't be bothered with when I had questions for them on 2 separate occasions. I will never buy another Transition. Also, I'm 46 been riding mountain bikes since I was 16 never had an issue like this.
Santa Cruz has great customer care service in warranty but the "Lifetime" is a bit misleading. ... It's for the average lifetime of a frame itself not the original owner's lifetime. Some manufacturers have actual lifetime warranties of the original owner and not the expected lifetime of the frame itself.
@@dialedmtb Trek and a few others offer warranties for the lifetime of the original owners on their frames and rigid forks. .... That being said, Santa Cruz is top notch with their customer service. I had my rear triangle replaced on a Tallboy due to a manufacturer defect a few years back and they sent me the part in 3 days.
I would probably be running some kind of app strava AllTrails or a garmin to compare times and speeds and such. I’m not buying an 8000 bike from what some guy tells me he’s feeling. Just my opinion.
That is fair, I did run Strava though but it is very unreliable. I will go over times in a future video but I will also let you know in that video that the Strava times should not be followed too closely and with how close they are its probably a wash. I can run Stava on my watch and my phone at the same time and get 2 different times, just an example. All a review is from any RUclips channel is a single person, or small group of opinions of the bike. But some channels are paid to do those reviews so they might not be the full truth. Where as I can say exactly what I want since I am not getting paid by anyone which some people really appreciate.
@@dialedmtb I just think that some cold hard facts would go a long way. Not trying to be a jerk. Like maybe set tire pressures all the same, how you setup the suspension what tires the bike has… things like that.
Tire pressures were all set the same, and the suspension was all setup with a ShockWiz and dialed in exactly how I liked each bike before I put them head to head. But no you're all good! As far as the tires I pay for everything myself (besides I did get the SCOR and Pivot sent to me for this shootout, which was rad of those companies) and doing all the same tires for six bikes would cost me $1000+ so that's not an option. They did all have Maxxis, and very similar tires and tires that I am very familiar and comfortable with so for me that was solid.
@@dialedmtb it’s a cool thing that you’re getting to do and you have some excellent trails for testing. I run a construction company so I’m a little jealous you get to ride more than me. But I like the details of stuff. Last year I bought a tallboy carbon frame but it was all low end parts I thought for 5600 I was getting a really good bike. Turns out it wasn’t much different than my gt sensor. I didn’t have enough knowledge to know better. This year I bought an aluminum Hightower and I’m going to do a bunch of upgrades with better parts. I had wished at the time that through all the videos I watched I would have been better equipped to spend my hard earned money. Thanks for all the info bro you’re doing a great job with your vid’s I’ll keep watching you keep posting. 👍🏼 and PS I hope you never have a submission for Friday fails!
Oh yeah, Santa Cruz inflated a massive amount in 2021 and the R kit was more expensive then the S kit was in 2020. With SC you have to get the as kit to get Good/middle level components. The R kits suck you in to an SC but with not good brakes, suspension or drivetrain. Sorey that happened to you! But I work full time in Project Management so I definitely don’t get to ride as much as I like but it’s a high priority for me to make sure I get out after work and on the weekends! If you ever have any questions on anything for bikes just let me know. But thank you! I hope not either!! haha
Same motif on both - one color and one logo on the downtube, yet the Transition looks like a poised fighter jet while the Santa Cruz only manages to show the charisma of a side of meat loaf.
Dude, I’m sorry, but you’re not making any sense. If you look at the transmission differences, you’re comparing t type transmission to an older non-t type transmission. That’s the differences right there in performance when climbing and why the heck is the video so dark I mean, what is going on this video.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
In my opinion the Tallboy would have been a better point of comparison. I think the Hightower tries to be something different all together - more of a light Enduro bike. We used to have a name for that category, it was called All Mountain. Not really in the same kind of bike as the Smuggler and the Tallboy. Great video though!
So with riding all 3 bikes, I do think the new Smuggler rides more like the new Hightower then the Tallboy, not exactly in the 130/140 configuration but closer IMO. If you have rode the new smuggler and Hightower V3 then I think you might agree. Also you can make the smuggler a 140/150mm bike super easy which I did in March (ran a Fox 36 Grip 2 150mm for the fork) and it has almost identical GEO to the Hightower when like that. Also I thought that made the bike feel almost identical to the new Hightower when in the longer travel configuration as well so that is why I put the smuggler up with the Hightower.
I do agree a Tallboy VS Smuggler video would be rad, but it was not in the budget this time and I had no support from Santa Cruz or Transition for these videos. Sorry I wish I could make everyone happy!
Agree. But the companies couldn't be further apart in terms of bike philosophy. I enjoyed my Spire but my Megatower v2 is so much better. Transition is miles behind the quality and performance of SC bikes.
Tallboy (V4) with 140 fork and cascade link/SDU over Hightower 😜
Tallboy vs. Smuggler would be a fun comparison. Great vid 🤘🏼
I tried to get a Tallboy! Wouldn’t have been for this test but I would definitely of done a comparison against the Smuggler. I had the V4 Tallboy and it’s still one of my favorite 120-130mm travel bikes, if not my favorite.
Transition make some great bikes; we carry Transition and Santa Cruz at my shop. However, Santa Cruz just have better built and more refined frames, better CS and warranties, are much easier to work on and require less service, and have a much higher resale value on the used market, etc, etc. Funny that so many (people who have never owned one) gripe about SC’s prices, when they actually may be the best value out there.
Yeah Santa Cruz definitely has the better quality, no doubts about it. I have a value video as a little bonus that will be coming out in a week or two and I talk a little more about all of that and especially with the new SC prices with the XO transmission and the sale prices on the original 2023 models it is one of the best value's, if not the in the test. I know I got rid of all my shorter travel bikes and will be looking to get a Tallboy here soon!
I will say the prices they had 10 months ago, were too high but they have come down a lot and there shouldn't be much complaining about the new prices in my opinion!
SC is the most popular bike so it will always have the best resale value. I will say my Ibis has way better internal cable routing than my SC Blur.
I have the espresso color smuggler but I went with a lyrik. Im also running a 2.4" dissector on the rear and have no issue with it rubbing.
Nice! I did try the bike with a 150mm Fox 36 and it was good for sure. I just liked the little bit lighter front end to make it a little more playful. That's good to hear the 2.4 Dissector is working. The tire that I had rubbing was the 2.4WT DHR II and transition said it shouldn't rub. Rubbed on both sides and checked the wheel to make sure it was true also, so weird deal but not a big deal I guess. The Dissector and the new 2.4 Forekaster that I am running both work awesome.
Love your review style. You touched on things others don't. It's not about any 1 single spec angle, but how they all work together collectively. SC has been doing this bike for a while and the cohesion of the V3 geometry is the best it's ever been.
Just got a HT purple S-kit. More reasonably priced. $4900. The purple paint is amazing. Almost a work of art. The paint job is only outdone by how well this bike rides. I heard it described as it performs great on everything But the "ests". Absolutely agree with this description.
While it can certainly handle the "est" category of terrain, it's Not going to be the best on the Rocky-est terrain, Steep-est, Narrow-est, Smooth-est, etc. But if you you're regularly riding terrain that's Not an "est" the HT crushes it and is the Best-est.😂
It's as close to a 1 quiver bike as there is in the market right now. If you want to ride the "est's" regularly get something more suited for that terrain. This bike is a Jack of all Trades, Master of Fun
Thank you I appreciate that and glad you are enjoying it! But yeah the purple color is awesome, it just was not available when I got my HT sadly. But you are spot on, if you're doing the gnarliest stuff then get a megatower or another full enduro bike.
Enjoy that hightower and I hope you keep enjoying the videos as well! Thanks for the support!
I thought the Hightower was closer to the sentinel in transitions lineup
If you look at the geo, and the smuggler being able to run 140/150 it’s a lot more like the Hightower then the Sentinel. I’ve rode the Sentinel before and it rides way bigger than any bike that I had on test for this series.
I just bought the same tire for the back of my smuggler. I am going to be PO'ed if it doesn't fit. I even went with the WT option on the tire grrr. I am still building my wheel set ONYX hubs and raceface ARC 35 rims hopefully my setup fits. Hopefully running the large frame helps me out.
Yeah let me know if you have any problems!
@@dialedmtb Fully pumped up I get 1/2 inch from the side walls and 3/4 inch from the bar on the front triangle to tire.
That is good!
Good reviews. Maybe lose the drink and don’t film in the dark though. I just ordered a Smuggler. Can’t wait to ride it.
Yeah it was a bummer, the Hightower had to get shipped out the next day so I had to get it done that evening. But thanks for the feedback on the drink, I’ve had others say they liked it, but good to hear both sides for sure.
@@dialedmtb do what you want to do, it's your video! who cares what's in your hand? :)
Can you measure the gap between the chainstay and the front triangle where the pivot is? I have a larger gap on the non drive side, not sure if this is a 1 off, or standard? Thanks all
For which bike?
Hahaha 🤣 duh. The smuggler.
Hey, I am not sure if I understand where you want me to measure? Just the gap between the front and rear triangle?
Hey, late to the party here… Have you run the smuggler 140mm rear option? If so, how’d that go? Have you been on that smuggler still? Still love it long term? The frame price has dropped and I’m thinking of pulling the trigger. I’d run it 150/140mm front/rear with a 36 and try and get that downhill build popping. Thoughts??
Hey, how would you compare the Smuggler against the Stumpjumper (non-evo) you reviewed a while back. I have seen your Spur vs Stumpy review but a Smuggler vs Stumpy would be awesome.
I have had a lot of questions on this, they are very similar! It has been over a year since I rode the regular Stumpy but from what I remember is that it climbs a little better than the Smuggler but the Smuggler descends just a tiny bit better. For the price and with the current sales on the Stumpy I would go for that though!
@@dialedmtb Thanks, that makes sense and what I was anticipating. I've had the Smuggler since launch and it is a great riding bike but it just doesn't feel worth the price tag. Fit, finish and stiffness is just not on par other similarly tier framesets. Just recently placed an order on a Stumpy frame + 2024 Fox Float.
@@sprungmass yeah I am with you, I am sure transition will have to lower their prices once 2024’s come out. They can’t stay in the 2022 price range any longer since all the top level brands are coming back down in price now.
Legit question here with the SDU vs the Fox that the Smugg comes stock with. I have the Lyrik on the front but have always preferred the SDU. Did you get any rides in with the Fox before you swapped over to the SDU?
Yeah I rode the bike with the Float X and a 34 to start, then swapped to the Pike and SDU. I think the fork made a bigger difference then the shock for sure. The Pike is amazing. The Float X is a lot more similar to the SDU than what the old DPX2 was so the only reason I would say it would be worth the money is if you want your suspension brands to match honestly.
Nice review. I see Forekaster on the rear of the Smuggler, which is a XC leaning tire vs. Dissector on rear of Hightower, which is a trail leaning tire. How much do you feel this impacted the comparison on speed and nimbleness?
Have you seen the new Forecaster? Maxxis did a full update on it (in the 2.4" size which I have on) and they wanted to make it clear that it is now a Trail tire that is very similar to the Dissector. I have weighed both of them and they are within 20g of each other and they feel pretty similar as a rear tire. Since the original tire I had on the rear of the transition rubbed I had to change it to this tire, which I do not think changed anything for the results since I have a lot of time on both of the tires, if anything it may of helped the Hightower.. by less then 5% in the tire category I would say.
@@dialedmtb I was not aware of the updated Forecaster, thanks!
Yeah it is an awesome new option for tires! It is pretty dang good in my opinion.
Gotta have black as a color option!
Black always seems to rotate through about once per cycle of each frame generation. Or at least a really dark grey or something like that.
@@dialedmtb my last three bikes have been black. I guess I’m just lucky.
Lack of rear tire clearance is inexcusable on a new model. Too bad. I run 180 rotors on my bikes with fine power. We just don’t have the sustained descents where I ride for the most part.
Yeah that is definitely a big bummer about the tire clearance. The 180mm rotors are fine for most of my local riding even though I still prefer 200 for my local stuff, but when I go out of town to ride and its steeper and gnarly I feel like its more of a need for sure.
I didn't have much luck with Transition warranty.
Dang that is not great to hear, what happened?
@@dialedmtb I had my new bike "a Spur" upside down on the floor as I was setting up tubeless tires after 3 mellow rides putting my rear wheel back in when I noticed a half circle crack by the rear axle. I was very careful as this was a new bike and carbon. The paint flaked off and took some of the carbon with it. I have no idea how it could break so easy like it was fragile as glass, really bummed as I just got this bike and cost me a lot of money. So, they wouldn't replace it or wouldn't even let me buy a new rear triangle as they said they had limited inventory and it was just cosmetic damage and not structural. They were also rude and couldn't be bothered with when I had questions for them on 2 separate occasions. I will never buy another Transition. Also, I'm 46 been riding mountain bikes since I was 16 never had an issue like this.
Dang that is not good to hear at all! Did you ever go into your local transition shop to talk to them about it? Terrible to hear though.
@@dialedmtb I bought it direct from Transition actually. So, I didn't take it to a bike shop.
@@TomCollins-c4h i had a same issue with my sentinel and same experience with warranty/service. ended up getting a yt izzo on sale few months ago.
Santa Cruz has great customer care service in warranty but the "Lifetime" is a bit misleading. ... It's for the average lifetime of a frame itself not the original owner's lifetime. Some manufacturers have actual lifetime warranties of the original owner and not the expected lifetime of the frame itself.
Yeah all the manufacturers have some weird extra little rules it seems with the lifetime warranty’s.
@@dialedmtb Trek and a few others offer warranties for the lifetime of the original owners on their frames and rigid forks. .... That being said, Santa Cruz is top notch with their customer service. I had my rear triangle replaced on a Tallboy due to a manufacturer defect a few years back and they sent me the part in 3 days.
Yeah I have heard good things about Santa Cruz for how fast they get stuff out! I have never had to use it but for sure have heard pretty good things.
I would probably be running some kind of app strava AllTrails or a garmin to compare times and speeds and such. I’m not buying an 8000 bike from what some guy tells me he’s feeling. Just my opinion.
That is fair, I did run Strava though but it is very unreliable. I will go over times in a future video but I will also let you know in that video that the Strava times should not be followed too closely and with how close they are its probably a wash. I can run Stava on my watch and my phone at the same time and get 2 different times, just an example.
All a review is from any RUclips channel is a single person, or small group of opinions of the bike. But some channels are paid to do those reviews so they might not be the full truth. Where as I can say exactly what I want since I am not getting paid by anyone which some people really appreciate.
@@dialedmtb I just think that some cold hard facts would go a long way. Not trying to be a jerk. Like maybe set tire pressures all the same, how you setup the suspension what tires the bike has… things like that.
Tire pressures were all set the same, and the suspension was all setup with a ShockWiz and dialed in exactly how I liked each bike before I put them head to head. But no you're all good! As far as the tires I pay for everything myself (besides I did get the SCOR and Pivot sent to me for this shootout, which was rad of those companies) and doing all the same tires for six bikes would cost me $1000+ so that's not an option. They did all have Maxxis, and very similar tires and tires that I am very familiar and comfortable with so for me that was solid.
@@dialedmtb it’s a cool thing that you’re getting to do and you have some excellent trails for testing. I run a construction company so I’m a little jealous you get to ride more than me. But I like the details of stuff. Last year I bought a tallboy carbon frame but it was all low end parts I thought for 5600 I was getting a really good bike. Turns out it wasn’t much different than my gt sensor. I didn’t have enough knowledge to know better. This year I bought an aluminum Hightower and I’m going to do a bunch of upgrades with better parts. I had wished at the time that through all the videos I watched I would have been better equipped to spend my hard earned money. Thanks for all the info bro you’re doing a great job with your vid’s I’ll keep watching you keep posting. 👍🏼 and PS I hope you never have a submission for Friday fails!
Oh yeah, Santa Cruz inflated a massive amount in 2021 and the R kit was more expensive then the S kit was in 2020. With SC you have to get the as kit to get Good/middle level components. The R kits suck you in to an SC but with not good brakes, suspension or drivetrain. Sorey that happened to you! But I work full time in Project Management so I definitely don’t get to ride as much as I like but it’s a high priority for me to make sure I get out after work and on the weekends! If you ever have any questions on anything for bikes just let me know. But thank you! I hope not either!! haha
Same motif on both - one color and one logo on the downtube, yet the Transition looks like a poised fighter jet while the Santa Cruz only manages to show the charisma of a side of meat loaf.
Haha well I do like the look of both but I can respect what others opinions are on them! lol
Dude, I’m sorry, but you’re not making any sense. If you look at the transmission differences, you’re comparing t type transmission to an older non-t type transmission. That’s the differences right there in performance when climbing and why the heck is the video so dark I mean, what is going on this video.
Santa Cruz, always overpriced and underspec'd.
They did update all the pricing and specs earlier this year and it is WAY better now!