I’m an atheist, but have been diving back into religious argumentation on both sides lately to better understand believers and have good discussions. This popped up in my feed, and wow I’m impressed! Informative video - I generally agree and see how my own deconversion experience aligns with this. Since being an atheist, I’ve just felt frustrated now when engaging with BAD Christian arguments when I know much better ones exist(but didn’t even learn them until after leaving). My ultimate conclusion though is different - I think I’m grateful I wasn’t exposed to the more nuanced arguments, because they would’ve been good tools to make myself feel better, and I may not have broken free of the magical thinking. From my current perspective, I see there are great arguments when working backwards from a pre-made conclusion, but they just don’t hold up the same when viewed without the emotional attachment to the belief system.
There is no argument, they just cherry pick their immoral slaver Gods book to fit whatever agenda they have. It’s as baseless and made up as any other religion on earth. Love me or burn for eternity, it’s your choice! Yeah, no thanks.
Hey, thanks for watching! And thanks for the high compliment. It means a lot! I hope you feel my video did not present a model of "working backwards from a pre-made conclusion." I think the final question I posed, "How do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true?" is fair and neutral. It can be asked and answered by anyone, regardless of worldview. It intentionally does not assume the truthfulness of Christianity in asking. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. :) Have a great day.
@@DoubtersWelcome Oh no I absolutely don’t think your video presented that people should work backwards from the conclusion. That’s just my own perspective as I think it’s the only way the arguments hold up(but I understand many see it differently haha). I don’t think that someone who still has belief can look at the facts entirely objectively, due to all of the factors that make continued belief more comfortable. There’s going to be a bias there, and that bias is what turns compelling but ultimately unconvincing arguments into actually convincing ones(and I should specify I’m speaking generally).
@Luquasio - Hello Friend, I would like to give you a different "perspective" since you are "open" to them. You mentioned your "own "de-conversion", which implies that you were once "converted" or had a "conversion" experience. The scriptures reveal that God is the only one SOLELY responsible for "converting" someone's soul. Psalm 19:7 says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, CONVERTING THE SOUL: the TESTIMONY OF THE THE LORD IS SURE, making wise the simple. Jesus told Peter, "Flesh & Blood, (or man), HAS NOT REVEALED to you that I am the Christ, but MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN" (Matthew 16:16,17) So Jesus tells Peter that he heard DIRECTLY FROM GOD. Jesus also said, "it is written in the Prophets; They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD: Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes unto ME. " (John 6:45) Again Jesus says we must HEAR and LEARN DIRECTLY FROM GOD in order to be "converted", and once that happens it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk away because you have just heard from God "yourself" In John 3, Jesus says that we must have a "Spiritual" Birth or be "Born Again" which is actually the "conversion" experience. And James 1:18 reveals that this "Birth" is SOLELY of God's doing, NOT man's. "Of God's own will, He begat us, (or Fathered us), with the Word of Truth,.." (James 1:18). This agrees with Psalm 19:7 above that it is God and His Word that "converts us". MAN is responsible for the "Natural" Birth. GOD is responsible for the "Spiritual" Birth. So my question to you is, when you look back, does your original "conversion" experience line up with what the Scripture says about only God "converting" you ?
If they bothered to look into it they'd see there wasn't a hell until around the 4th century to help convert Greeks and other pagan religions to Christianity since they had very firm beliefs in their version of a heaven and hell.
@@1235tristan they never do. I'm a very casual researcher and know more of the history of their religion than most of them. 10 minutes on Google absolutely destroys the Bibles narrative.
@@JesusChristIsLord.PraiseGOD. Lol. As soon as you accept that one religion or belief isn't correct or real you're accepting that all of them including your own may not be real. Of course you're too biased and deluded to understand that but I think that's hilarious. Also what you just said literally makes no sense at all.
The last few minutes of this vid were my fave. The notion that if there's no room to express doubt then the only option is to leave is a great point. 😊
Truth Snack, My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people. Keep the God belief but ditch the abusive narcissistic God of the Bible, or it will just be Cherry picked more and more and more until it’s only hanging on by a thread
@@hyreonkwhat about it? It’s a subjective experience that cannot be investigated. People of different faith backgrounds have different experiences, like Native American spirituality, Hindus, Muslims, and Christians etc One religion could be right, or all can be wrong.
@@Username34823 I was not so much interested in the Marian apparition, or even the supernatural knowledge she had about the term Immaculate Conception, or even the 70 miraculous healings associated with the well she dug up, prompted by the apparition. Even if you were convinced they were real, you would grieve, not celebrate, because you think the God of the Bible did these things, and the God of the Bible is a monster. I'm asking about the person Bernadette Soubirous. She worshipped the God of the Bible. What do you think? Should her God be worshiped? "Soubirous spent the rest of her brief life at the motherhouse, working as an assistant in the infirmary and later as a sacristan, creating ornate embroidery for altar cloths and vestments. Her contemporaries admired her humility and spirit of sacrifice. One day, asked about the apparitions, she replied: 'The Virgin used me as a broom to remove the dust. When the work is done, the broom is put behind the door again.'" "Since the Apparitions, Lourdes had to deal with about 7000 cases of unexplained cures. 69 cases have been recognised as miraculous by the Church at this time." "In the 160 years since Soubirous dug up the spring, 70 cures have been verified by the Lourdes Medical Bureau as 'inexplicable' - after what the Catholic Church claims are 'extremely rigorous scientific and medical examinations' that failed to find any other explanation." 70 cases like Jean-Pierre Bély. Visited Lourdes: 9 October 1987. Age 51, French. Multiple sclerosis. His cure was recognised on 9 February 1999.
We are no longer under the laws like in the OT. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the laws. We have come under grace. We are now in the New Testaments era. If Jesus can tell someone who asked him how many times do I have to forgive my brother, he said, 7×70 times. How much more will God forgive us when we ask for his forgiveness. He also said, "Be anxious about nothing but bring your supplication unto me." Don't let wrong teaching cause unnecessary anxiety in us.
@@Iris-2023gh First of all. Just because you don’t follow the laws of the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t immoral. And In Matthew 5:17 states: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” No where in the NT is slavery condemned. It’s only ever condoned. Do you get your morals from God? Is it morally permissible to own another human being as property against their will? If you don’t think it’s moral, either “God” condoned an objectively evil thing you disagree with, or… you’re in a cult that has lied to you repeatedly Question your beliefs or spend your single life on earth worshipping an Bronze Age book full of disgusting immoral teachings
Christians are making the positive statment, therefore they should provide the necessary evidence to warrant belief in said claim, which of course they haven't@@KettouRyuujin
abandoning my faith while yielding to the hard truth has been the most liberating and awakening experience I have ever had. Getting born again was cool and all, but finally waking up to reality has benefited every aspect of my existence. My hope is for everyone to experience our world with a sober mind, without supernaturalistic ideas clouding their paradigm
@sciencesaves - Hello, When you say that you "yielded to the hard truth", what I beleive that you are really saying is either you came up with your "own Truth" in your own "carnal" reasoning, or you heard the so-called "Truth" from MAN and NOT GOD. You also said, "Getting born again was cool and all, but finally waking up to reality...". This statement is a contradiction and reveals that you never had the "Spiritual" Birth, but your Church probably only used that term "Born Again" as a TITLE ONLY. Because having the 'Spiritual" Birth is when God REVEALS HIMSELF to you in REALITY by His Spirit after the "seed" of His Word has fallen into the Good Ground of your Heart, and then grows to Full Maturity, as Jesus taught in the parable of the "Sower Sows the Word". The "Natural" birth is a REALITY EXPERIENCE, and it is the RESULT of a "seed" being planted in Good Ground. It is the EXACT SAME in the "Spiritual" Birth, it is the RESULT of the "seed" of God's Word falling into the Good Ground of your heart and growing to HARVEST, which is the BIRTH. In the "Natural" Birth, your MOTHER is "revealed" to you. In the "Spiritual" Birth, GOD is "revealed" to you. They are both "tangible" REALITY EXPERIENCES and you KNOW if it has happened to you or not. And if it has, it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk away from the God who has just REVEALED HIMSELF to you by His Spirit. I am not trying to "criticize" anything that you have been through because I know very well what certain "denominations" can do to a person, because we ALL START OUT NOT KNOWING God, and most of us will hear the Gospel preached from another "man" at first. I do not know the "extent' of you reading the Scriptures on your "own" without commentary, but reading the scriptures on my own, in my own house is what led me to eventually have the "Spiritual Birth", and it is REAL, and JESUS IS WHO HE CLAIMS TO BE.
@@menmustchangebeforekingdoms I was a Southern Baptist music minister, then Calvary Chapel. I attended Word of Life Bible college. Sorry you spent your time and energy typing all of that, but I get it, I would have too 15 years ago. I wish you the best on your journey
@@sciencesaves Thank you Friend, I pray the best for you on your journey as well. I will leave you with this thought....Unless we hear from God "personally", and God REVEALS HIMSELF to us in REALITY, there would be no point in "pretending" to "believe" in something that we have not 'experienced". I get it, and that is the Truth. This is why Jesus said many times that it is God's Will to REVEAL HIMSELF to us in REALITY in order to "ground" us in the TRUTH. Jesus said, "Flesh and Blood (or man) has NOT REVEALED that I am The Christ to you Peter, but MY FATHER which is in Heaven" (Matthew 16:16,17) Jesus also said, "It is written in the Prophets: They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD, (not man). Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes to Me". (John 6:45) Again, this is why Jesus told His Disciples to "wait for the Promise" of the Spirit because He would "teach them in all truth", NOT "man". We all "start out" with "man", but God wants us to "end" with HIM ONLY. Take Care, Friend.
8:20 I love how you admit you were failing to confirm everything you were taught, but immediately said you "decided" to focus on some bullshit that enabled you to keep believing... dude, your faith was never in question, you just decided to lower the bar as to how far you're willing to suspend your cognitive abilities to keep believing in something you don't have any good evidence for. It's just sad.
But, you see, there's a podacst with Bible scholars coming. You know what I'd like to see? Anecdotal reports from people who made 'faith' decisions one way or the other because they thought a video like this coming across their screen was a 'sign from above' instead of the algorithm trying train a model on the user.
"i was frantically trying to confirm *everything* I had been taught, but I was failing" keyword: *everything* logical fallacy: the fallacy of composition just because he was failing to confirm *everything* doesn't entail that *everything* is incorrect. _____________________________________ "some bullshit that enabled you to keep believing" - this is an assumption that it's bullshit "your faith was never in question" -an assumption based on a false premise "you just decided to lower the bar" -there is nothing that entails him lowering the bar, this is asserted without any evidence "suspend your cognitive abilities" definition of suspend: temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect explanation of cognitive abilities: “reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience” in no way does anything mentioned entail him temporarily preventing the continuation of his ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience, much of the video insinuates the exact opposite actually. "believing in something you don't have any good evidence for. It's just sad" definition of belief - trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something. according to this definition, a belief can in fact be asserted without "good evidence" also, this comment is dishonest. this video isn't about him asserting evidence or belief, it's about the process of deconversion and his own personal story as to why he didn't reach this supposed "final step". "it's just so sad" reading your comment makes me sad that people who think like you exist. not atheists, I like them, but nincompoops like you? Who have no consideration for the importance of a personal experience? I personally dislike you. In no way is this video trying to convince you of anything, and yet here you are shoving your *dogma* down people's throats. shame. overall you present a very weak description of this dudes narrative that lacks an incremental amount of nuance, and after all, like Hitchens said. "anything that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", the majority of your claims lack any fundamental evidence and therefore can be dismissed without evidence.
@@billdecompsa4705 I appreciate the time you took to respond to my comment. I think you went a bit overboard in overanalizing every single word and its meaning, but hey, that's up to you... also, english is not my first language, so I may have used some wrong terms... The fact you expect some random dude on youtube comments to justify every single word they say is a bit weird... it's my opinion and I think the evidence is the video itself... I don't have any issues with personal experience, but in the case of this video, I think this is in no way valuable, because he was never trully near deconversion... he never really questioned anything, was never intellectually honest... oh and please do not confuse faith with trust or confidence, it just shows how weak your position is... trust or confidence is based on evidence and is a reliable path to truth, faith is the opposite.
@@pabloyelpo707 I agree with you're first two paragraphs, and I found no fault with your English or use of words, only with the context. Like you said, it's your opinion, but you also making baseless claims that you proceed to make once more in this reply, such as "he was never truly near deconversion", "he never really questioned anything", and "was never intellectually honest". These statements themselves are intellectually dishonest as this video isn't at all going over the details of his personal journey and what he explored but instead a process by which deconversion happens. You're last paragraph is entirely arguable and seems to be simply based on a difference in interpretation, and therefore is most likely not worth arguing.
@@pabloyelpo707 as to expand upon the response to your last point, no. That definition of belief comes directly from the Oxford dictionary and isn't simply just me speculating, that is a widely accepted definition. And I therefore confused nothing, while they are all different things they can still be related and you can't simply assert that I'm confusing faith with trust or confidence, I'm defining belief, so please don't attempt to strawman my point. Also, theres nothing wrong with going overboard analyzing something. I'm sure someone who disagrees with me will come along and do the exact same, but that's life. I'm not a genius but I am sad that you find it saddening people have ended up with a different world view than you and in response resort to trying to undermine their journey which you know nothing about. That is you being *dishonest* with yourself. But hey dude, you do you but I overall disagree with the baseless points you made in your comment and therefore responded.
Hmm. Not sure what the researcher looked at, but his steps really didn't follow my journey, with the possible exception of the "stressors". After 20 years of so of being a Christian, I simply asked myself one day why I believe anything the pastor was saying or anything the bible claimed. That began a five year attempt to find good reasons to believe - because I really wanted to - and for me the attempt failed miserably. I didn't need inerrancy or fundamentalism, there was no major trigger event, I wasn't isolated - my conclusion was that Christianity simply makes no sense. Contradictions and inconsistencies certainly help cast doubt on things, but I wouldn't call them the "core".
I think that's possible. Joel is still doing his work, but in his online article (linked in description) he does make a distinction between those who actively deconvert verses those who simply find themselves drifting away over time. You might find the article helpful or giving additional info. Thanks for watching and commenting. :)
@@DoubtersWelcome Hmm. Not sure I fully understand the distinction, but would be interesting to see him work his ideas out further, maybe attach some kind of stats.
I love this video! Ive been going through my own deconstruction and choosing which things to believe or not believe instead of having an all or nothing approach. I talk about it on my channel as well. Im shocked this video doesn’t have more views!!
The problem with religion that the most people take the good parts of it, since those are so comforting and sooth our fear of death, never feel alone, etc. However, people who take religion as it should have been -without cherry picking-, are become monsters.
Hhmmmmm....😊 people are become monsters with no help from anybody or anything else. Religion is not a monster maker, monsters will use anything they can to be more monstrous. The best things always get used the most.
@@duaneburris7ate9 So, how about not let them use more legal tools to scam and potentially corrupt people even easier. Plenty of reasons to eradicate bogus beliefs, but not many positive ones.
@@duaneburris7ate9 You are wrong. Religion can very well be a monster maker. It is based on an eternal carrot-and-stick tactic. This is monstrous and violates human dignity. Children who are brought up in a religious environment with such monstrous ideas are actually being abused.
@@duaneburris7ate9 Religion has always increased hatred. Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Blaise Pascal: “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” There is nothing like allegiance to an imaginary friend to make you hate those who do not share your allegiance.
you should learn about the BITE model. Behavioral, information, thought, & emotion. These are the four pillars of control held by high-control groups. Make sure you're not walking into one right now. Make sure you're not being led down a specific path set forward by someone else. Make sure you're not setting up a framing device for all other information so you can safely dismiss it and put it into boxes that let you control and integrate the dissonant information into your worldview.
I am a missionary in a small community. I stood up to say basically this and I was to told to take back what I said, I didn't and lost financial support, I'm still serving in that community they are not. God sustained me through and the ministry thrived... Just not so much financially though lol.
@@LalmuanzualaMuanzuala-dh9ug That is a religious tall story, the same as the accounts of the other 4,000 gods believed in by the gullible throughout history. You are better served putting your trust in yourself and the people who really love you instead of a fictional being who does nothing but the indoctrinated constantly tells you he loves them. Do you not have any real people loving you that you need to resort to an imaginary friend? Albert Einstein: "The word God is nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change anything about this. All religions are an incarnation of the most childish superstition".
@@hglundahl Sounds like you're in denial like I was for many years. Fortunately, I found the truth when I was in my twenties. After about age 40ish, the chances of deconversion are very slim. People get so attached to their beliefs they can't let them go.
@@coul Sounds like I'm safe then, I'm 55. Meanwhile, I have one way or another been confronting arguments against the faith since I was a few months short of 15.
@@hglundahl Oh yeah, you're safe! There's almost zero chance of finding your way out at 55. It's practically unheard of. You might as well sit back and enjoy the reality you've come to accept.
Your example of Jesus giving us the space to come to the conclusion for ourselves is going the thing you’re saying it doesn’t do. He’s literally giving them do you want to leave too as the only option compared to full belief and obedience. He didn’t say do you have questions or anything that allows for nuance. These are people who are just completely either bought into him. He says things harshly so that people just leave. Also, why would the god of the universe inspire these books for them to not be totally true especially if he then requires beliefs in some of these doctrines for salvation? If he’s real he’s set up the questioner to abandon reason and consistency on the base of dogmatic belief. That can’t be the good god of the Bible who leads to all truth and tells you to test and see for yourself.
Hi. Thanks for watching. I think when you look at the whole of the Gospels you’ll see that the disciples did have lots of questions and doubt still. Peter would still reject Jesus, then come back! Jesus was not giving them an all-or-nothing, certainty-only choice in this instance. I brought it up to say that he is not coercing them to stay or believe. That’s important when we realize that coercive pressure just isn’t helpful when it comes to seeking the truth.
It’s the carnal mind vs the spiritual mind. The Bible is a spiritual book and one needs the Holy Spirit abiding to understand it and just watch the pages of the Bible leap out like it’s a movie and you’re in it and that’s how He shows you the truth. Childlike disposition is what we need. Why do we tell a child about who and what God is and they believe? A powerful prayer one can say is to say Father forgive my unbelief and give me a believing heart. Faith is just our soul coming into terms that God is all in all so spirit of doubt and cloud of darkness around me begone. Jesus loves us! Remember that we are fighting in victory and not for victory.
3:44 I have probably not yet come that close to seeing differences, except perhaps the hour of Crucifixion. Was He condemned or nailed midday on Good Friday? One solution is "sixth hour" in the condemnation account in St. John refers to sixth hour of the night, i e midnight. That he was crucified on Parascheve doesn't mean leavened bread was thrown out that day, it could simply mean on the Friday, the Pesakh still ongoing, as most tend to think now, or He could have started Nisan a day before the Temple did (Nisan started when the new moon was sighted, and Jesus was out of reach from communicating with the temple, and further west, meaning He could have sighted the new moon one evening earlier). Or "parascheve" could refer to the Jewish judges still waiting to midnight before having the Seder, as I just suggested. But a common solution to the timing problem is, His condemnation was pronunced not too long before the Crucifixion.
The reason I deconverted was beacuse I grew up being told "Scientists teach X, Y, Z" by Christians, which were blatantly false. Once I actually looked into what Scientists said, it was the exact opposite I was told by Christians. This example can be used for evolution, how old the universe is, how old the earth is, how long humans have been around, etc. What I was told by Christians growing up has been proven false every time I actually looked into it for myself.
Hey! Thanks for watching. I think what you're saying makes perfect sense, and this video is exactly for you. Can I suggest that you were offered some all-or-nothing paradigms that made no space for the fact that all those scientific facts can be true, and Christianity true as well! :)
@@DoubtersWelcome I don't think any scientific theories rule out god or Christianity, but the lies from Christians about what scientists claim set me on that path really fast. Why I don't believe Christianity is true is the lack of evidence for god, the bible isn't a trustworthy source of history, and if Christianity were actually true and Christians had the holy spirit, it would be quite evident among the Christian community that it would be undeniable to atheists like me, but it's not. Christians are no different that those supposedly without the holy spirit.
I think in principle both could be true (I accepted evolution the whole time I was Christian). But I've come to disbelieve, in part, due to the disharmonious fit between these elements of reality and mainstream orthodox Christian teaching. For example, the development of homo sapiens contrasted with any form of the doctrine of Original sin taught in the West. All the best to you.
So you should change your questions to strengthen your beliefs 🤔 ! Sounds more like manipulation than faith ! Stuff like this is why I now longer believe. Also a great help was Brandon at mindshift here on RUclips! He has way more answers than the bible does
Hey. Thanks for watching. Yes, we should change the questions we ask if it means asking a more relevant, more foundational question. It sounds like you’ve changed your beliefs and I’m sure the questions you asked shifted as well. I leave the truthfulness of Christianity out of this video, I just try to help doubting Christians ask the central questions. :) Have a good day.
I think a lot of people including myself become atheist because of the mountain of evidence showing our religious beliefs are not real. I'd also answer no to your core 3 questions. 1. You can't honestly answer that question either way as true or false. 2. I have a hard time believing someone rose from the dead and nobody but the bible's authors wrote about that event. That's the story of the millennia, we should have multiple writings on the event if true. 3. The Bible has far too many contradictions and inaccuracies to be either written or inspired by a perfect God it's clearly written by men. You even bring up contradictions in this video. Normally when a person tells you a story twice but both times the story is different you know they're lying, yet when the Bible does the same thing people ignore it.
Next Tuesday I’m releasing a podcast episode with a historian on the resurrection of Jesus. He and I both wrestle with doubts sometimes so I think you’ll find the conversation honest. But he also presents some arguments I found fascinating. I would love to hear your thoughts after it comes out. This historian (Mike Licona), has also written a book called “Why there are differences in the Gospel.” You should check it out!
3:05 I am so thankful to my ma, of the "setting conditions" nothing except what some would consider textualism was there. When stressors arrived, and they still do, the closest they came to making me lose my faith was when I was half an hour tempted to consider Calvinism as true, and myself as one of those predestined to damnation. I actually do consider Double Predestination (or U + L in that black TULIP of theirs) as outside Christianity.
3:26 I would agree with your then assessment. He did it the first time, Pharisees hold Him under some cloud of suspicion. But they are still "giving Him a second chance" ... He did it the second time, "repeat offense" and He's crucified.
8:50 I don't know how my Apoloogetics would work on someone actually at the tip of throwing out the faith. I'm pretty sure, it could be very helpful for those who have already decided for the faith and are now working through the details.
I'd argue that most people don't want to be Christian. Most of them ONLY do it to avoid hell. Which I'm skeptical exists. Although I'm an athiest now, I was traumatized by religion so much that I still carried that fear of hell for 2 years afterward. For people who fear hell: Even IF it was real, how can you feel hellfire without a nervous system? You dont "take that with you" when you go.
Hey, thanks for watching! I’m curious, do you feel you were ever able to make the shift from “Rescuing content” to “rescuing belief” before deconverting?
No problem man! No, because like you, I was failing to justify the content. (Which is the Bible primarily, not only th "teachings of people") and I didn't ignore that When I looked at the content(Bible) objectively without the Christian biases, I realized how much I was lied to, and how much Christians don't actually know about the bible! This scriptures get spun to all hell. With Christian bias: Noah's arks is a beautiful story about his faith in God Without bias: it's a diety committing a horrific genocide simply because people were using that free will that he gave them. Not to mention, the only person he spoke to was Noah, so of course Noah would be "the only holy one". I could go on and on, but in conclusion, no, i wasn't able to make that shift. If I felt the need to rescue my belief, that's probably a sign there's something off.
@@treminicusrex329you made the right choice to follow your heart and logic over an immoral Bronze Age book written by slavers. No where on the evolutionary timeline did God start sending people to heaven or hell, wish people thought harder about their beliefs.
One of the best pieces of advice I got early on in my faith is don't let what you don't know effect what you do know. My basic understanding of the Heart of the Gospel is pretty much the same as my early beliefs but the why is different and so much deeper because I always stuck to the idea if Jesus is the truth then going after the truth is fine as he promises to guide us in truth. I knew God had taken me from the world (worldly ideas and thoughts) so while my salvation was secured my sanctification is an ongoing process. I knew I would change because I am not perfect and God never accepted me on that premise either. God is Greater than our doubts and above our performance. I know what my life was without Jesus and no Way am I going back to it. As you mentioned and Peter said in John 6 "where will we go Lord?You have the words of life." Everything in my spirit knows this.
Proof your religion is twisted: My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Hey, thanks for watching. I assure that I think often of what it would look like to stop believing in "Bronze Age fairy tales." But it's not that simple for me. I'd rather serious ask the question, "how do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true." If I were to just give it up without careful consideration, then I'd start asking "what if it is true?" Sadly, your bold, harsh statement is just another form of pressure and shaming that I have to resist if I want to honestly assess my beliefs. I hope you see what I'm trying to say. Nonetheless, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Honestly, you should be ashamed for believing in something you don't have sufficient evidence to believe in. If you ask serious questions, but then immediately reject what the evidence shows you and instead choose to still believe in what you already believed in, then it's not only pointless, but also pretty dumb@@DoubtersWelcome
Is this news to anyone? So, if you keep it vague and keep telling yourself its not actually literal, then you can keep it amorphous enough to keep the illusion alive? Also, the early church had no concept of legalism as people explain it today. The way you got forgiven was in baptism and the way you kept your promise was through keeping a clear conscience. This was unanimously understood. Excellent content, btw.
Hey, thanks for watching! It was news to me! But just to be clear, I didn’t argue that we should keep it vague. I argued that we should start with the foundation and build from there. :)
@@DoubtersWelcome understood. I'm an atheist, but I was once a faithful biblical ND ancient near Eastern scholar. I think it's amazing how little "Christians" know about their Bible and faith. If we use the early church as a standard, then I've never actually met a Christian.
@@whitewings2363 When I was 16 atheist literature was introduced to me by a friend. It blew my faith away very quickly as I kept reading. Not the least because I was exactly like those "Christians" you mention: I thought I knew everything from going to church a few times, and owning a Bible (not that I read it...). Apologetics here on RUclips has shown me how wrong those boyish assumptions were :) It's a lot more complicated than I though.
@betrion7 no, the name doesn't recall any association. I haven't read too much by way of commentary on the early church, aside from some historians and mythithists (mythithists are out to lunch).
Hey! Thanks for watching. Pivoting from trying to confirm every single thing I was taught growing up (some of which was incorrect), and focusing on the core, foundational questions of Christianity instead. I believe in the video I say, "That shift probably saved my faith."
I'm so happy to live in the real world and not have to maintain an imaginary one! Of course you have doubts about the validity of faith as a pathway to truth. That's reality whispering to you. And retreating into wishful and fearful superstition is not an escape from reality, it's only a denial that blunts your capacity for adult understanding and acceptance, so that you're functioning at a diminished level, more like a child playing make-believe, or a sheep waiting to be fleeced or slaughtered. But if that's what you wish for yourself, go ahead. It's entirely up to you. I'm just so much happier to live in the real world. It's much more interesting,
Hey! Thanks for watching. I’d love your take because it’s actually a tricky question and I’ve noticed Christians aren’t even sure how to answer it. Christians often ask “how do I know Christianity is true,” but the question I pose in this video is “how do I question Christianity in a way that helps me know if it’s true or not.” What I love about that variation is that anyone can answer it! Even a skeptic or atheist. Now, please believe me when I say I’m not asking to make a point. I’d genuinely love your take on that question. What methods have you applied to Christianity that helped you determine whether or not it’s false? Have a great day.
What you cite as ways to regain your faith is probably quite similar to what have increasingly drawn me to God and Christianity over especially the last year or so. I'm really glad I clicked on this suggestion. Because the things that push us away from Christ, like the research says, I can relate to. It's part of what repels me. My greatest source of help has come from RUclips where you find the likes of John Lennox, William Lane Craig, James Tour, Frank Turek, Josh and Sean McDowell, and Trent Horn. Not to mention the great channel Daily Dose of Wisdom. I've found some stellar apologetics here, and they're really helping me, an atheist for 35 years, rethink his life and beliefs. My most profound error when I turned away from God was assuming I knew everything there was to know about Christianity. I should have gotten help from someone who knew his theology. But I did my own, ignorant thing and ended up with the new atheists. But, to borrow a phrase, I'm not sure I have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.
Hey! Thanks for watching. Glad to have helped in a small way. If you feel like you’re a “doubter” I can relate. This channel is for those who need a place to be “honest about doubt but still hopeful about faith.” I’ve always felt it very hard to find places where you can be both.
Saying that you do not have enough faith to be an atheist is absurd and ignorant. I doubt very much that you were really an atheist for 35 years or you would have known that most atheists are agnostic. They do not claim to know the unknowable. There is no evidence that either no gods exist or that any god exists. The only rational position is, therefore, that of an Agnostic Atheist. The default position in any matter is to not believe in something that has insufficient evidence to justify that belief, i.e. not believing in a deity is the default position until evidence is found to the contrary and no faith is needed to hold the default position. On the other hand, there is abundant evidence against any of the deities described so far as none of those descriptions match with what we know of reality. Albert Einstein: "The word God is nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change anything about this. All religions are an incarnation of the most childish superstition".
@@DoubtersWelcome Let's just say that doubt is the only reason I'm here, and it's also why, over the last year, I've felt a strong attraction to Christianity *and* allowed myself to act on it. I think by far that John Lennox has had the most impact on me as he explained what faith really means. Faith is not *certainty*. Faith is more like confidence. Like if you and I met and you revealed your mind to me, I could gain confidence in you, but I would never be 100 % certain of you. That makes sense to me and also calibrated my understanding of how to discern and judge the evidence that is before me as it relates to God, his existence and his will. I've seen and practiced enough (pathological) certainty in my life, and now in my fifties I'm more humble, and also more grace has found me. There's way too much pathological certainty running the show these days, and I hope to not be part of that anymore. I was very certain as a new atheist, and boy did I let people know it. I believe that I met Jesus in a dream last week. In my dream I couldn't open my eyes. Even when I pried my eyes open, my eyeballs would roll upwards in their sockets, as if I wanted to not see. It was like I could see but not see. But when I met Jesus in the dream my eyes opened and I could see again. I only met grace and love from the being in my dream. I think the symbolism regarding my eyes in the dream is plain enough. Much to digest.
What a blessing to see another small channel with struggling growth and good content. Just when I thought I was the only one persistently posting new content with disappointing results most of the time. Congratulations on having one break through the algorithm. Hope you find support for your channel, keep it real!
My research revealed page after page of contradictions, fictional characters and false, exaggerated claims. The Bible writers were writing rebuttals against their Christian and Jewish opponents adding miracles, borrowing plagiarized stories from earlier texts and putting words of wisdom into the mouths of their imaginary characters. This went on for centuries as different groups with the talent and resources competed for power, influence and wealth.
Yeah, IDK about these. I'm in the process of reevaluating my faith right now and I don't think any of these factors fit very well. I have a sense that the 5 stages are a bit of a miscalculation, but not entirely wrong. I don't blame Joel--I can imagine that case study like that is tricky business. That said, textualism is a factor for me, though I wouldn't articulate it in the way it was presented here. The problem for me is that I've come to understand that the Bible is demonstrably false in some places, and that in turn led to the erosion of some key doctrines built upon those passages. I also noticed that those had a cascade effect, both directly and indirectly. The direct effect primarily being that since the Bible contains passages that quote previous passages, the veracity of the later passages also come into question. The indirect effect being what those errors say about Christ, who affirmed and taught from books that contain error. Simply choosing to believe at this point is not an option. More information is required. However, I do find that belief in God is not an easy thing to dismiss, and listening to atheists talk is more likely to drive me back to Christianity than it is to sway me to their views. So for the time being, I call myself a soft agnostic, though not perched firmly upon that ground.
Hey! Thanks for watching. That’s very similar to my story. I thought that if the Bible had even one tiny, insignificant error that the whole faith crumbled. But I realized later (as described in this video) that it just doesn’t follow that “if the Bible has an error, Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.” That’s why I switched my focus first to the existence of God, then to the resurrection of Jesus, the finally to the scriptures. When I put them in that order, it revamped my approach and I was able to rebuild faith. I highly recommend it. In fact the podcast I’m releasing this Tuesday is on the resurrection. I’m interviewing a historian who also wrestle with doubts about the resurrection and subsequently did a PhD on the topic. You should check it out. I think you’d find it interesting, at the very least! :)
I’m in a similar boat. No longer Christian but still believe in God. It seems atheism takes just as much if not more faith than any organized religion. They can also be very pretentious.
How did they determine textualism? The definition seems extremely bias, how do they know they rejected all nuance and context? Isn't this supposed to be an study? Because it shows an extremely clear and obvious case of bias, which it absolutely is against what an study is supposed to be. It doesn't matter if true or not, but applying something so obviously subjective and applying such a heavy judgement into what is supposed to be an study, is a heavy no no. One thing would be to simply say that an step was that they had problems with scripture, that is how an study should be conducted. But, categorizing as textualism, specially saying that less consideration is given to nuance or cultural context. Unless they specifically said that, it is a judgement imposed over something that is supposed to be an impartial study.
Hi. Thanks for watching. :) You can find the whole article from Joel below if you want to read more. But Joel is reporting observations (not his opinion) based on the study of deconversion stories, told by the person who deconverted. So, if you don’t like the facts of their stories, I don’t think it’s fair to call Joel biased simply for reporting what they said about their own deconversion.
@@DoubtersWelcome "But Joel is reporting observations (not his opinion)" But that is what I am saying, I will definitely read it. But defining it as textualism and the definition given of textualism is extremely biased. "I don’t think it’s fair to call Joel biased simply for reporting what they said about their own deconversion." But the is my point tho, it doesn't seem he is doing that. Unless they personally said they used textualism and defined it that way, it is indeed fair. If we were to ask all of the people involved in the study, if they thought they were involved in textualism, and tended to ignore all nuance and cultural context of the verses, do you think they's agree? An unbiased conclusion would be to say that in that step they had problems with scripture, and that is it. To classify as textualism, and the definition given is to judge them and therefore it is a biased conclusion. Even if true, it is assigning judgement that can only be applied IF AND ONLY IF, the study subjects themselves classified it as textualism. The difference is that they reported the classifications themselves and therefore it is unbiased. As opposed to having that classification IMPOSED to them, which makes it biased.
@@farrex0 I think I understand what you're saying and there's something to it that I'll keep thinking about, but the deconverts are not going to use unified language, so I think Joel is trying to synthesize it. What language they used exactly? Maybe it'll become clearer when his dissertation is published.
@@DoubtersWelcome Maybe, but the term and definition used seems quite uncharitable and with negative implications. To which I doubt most of the study subjects wouldn't be happy to be classified that way even if true. Which is why I took issue to it. Not to mention, how can you determine context or cultural context is being ignored? Did he have to go to every single verse mentioned by them and then subjectively determine if they are indeed ignored all nuance or the cultural context? It seems there is so much room for error on the subjective side, to be able to ascribe said judgement in a non biased way. And even if he studied every single verse, and found an objective way to determine interpretation, cultural context and nuance.... if they gave a single example or even two, there is no way to determine if those are the only verse they have issue with. Again, even if true, the classification has so much room for subjectivity and judgement. Which even in an study, the person can't make a nuanced assessment.
Leviticus 20;13 : "If a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
NONE of that applies to me. I simply started to listen to other people and came to the conclusion that Christianity is not special. Justin Martyr was particularly "persuasive". In my version of the parable of the sower, I discovered that other sowers had different crops that were just as nutritious as mine. Some had mixed crops. Some even lived in the wild and lived perfectly well on roots and berries. Different crops grow better in different soils. Then Christianity comes along and calls the sowers stubborn for not buying its particular brand of seed.
This sounds so much like Pentecostalism that I was first involved with ... I arrived at the same conclusions and went back to the core beliefs of Christianity... I think Hebrews 11:6 pretty much summed it up for me
I'd be fascinated to hear more of you story if you ever felt like sharing. Of course the is absolutely no pressure. I hope your journey of faith is flourishing!
Proof your religion is twisted: My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Not the worst take I’ve seen! I think the fundamentalists churches having the hardest time is a good point, that’s my background. But I think every fundamentalist who has ever deconverted has probably considered a more progressive Christianity before ditching it altogether. But, if you know the Bible is flawed which it is- then your religion becomes whatever you want. You want an angry vengeful god? There’s verses for that. You want god to love everyone? Verses for that. You want god to give you money, or do you want to live with the bare minimum and give everything else away? There’s verses for that. Your ego becomes your god.
I think it's much more important to follow the teachings of the Christian tradition (showing kindness towards others, etc) than to focus on one's faith and the belief in the supernatural elements.
Proof your religion is twisted: My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Some of the Christian teachings are really weird. Mark 10:9 outlaws divorce. Matthew 5:18 makes all of the Old Testament law part of Jesus's teachings. There are many others. Skeptic's Annotated Bible has an inventory of the craziness. If you are going to use some basis other than the Bible to reject the crazy Jesus teachings and accept "Love they neighbor as thyself" and similar popular Jesus teachings, you might as well use that other basis to make all of the decisions and then you don't need to try to get a 2000 year old book to make sense in your life. Unless you have Christian friends who will shout "Get behind me, Satan" and shun you if you don't toe the line. I cannot presently help you with that situation.
Kinda.... but not really... I contrast Jesus' non-coercive approach to religious belief with the coercive systems that Joel's research uncovers in churches. I think (in the context of Christian faith) it's relevant to discuss Jesus' approach, right? Thanks for watching and commenting. :)
It is God's Spirit that REVEALS Jesus the Christ to a person's "spirit" and once that happens it is IMPOSSIBLE to "lose" your Faith because you have just HEARD FROM GOD "personally" BY REVELATION. Jesus said, "Flesh and Blood has NOT REVEALED that I am The Christ to you Peter, but MY FATHER which is in Heaven" (Matthew 16:16,17) Jesus also said, "It is written in the Prophets: They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD. Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes to Me" (John 6:45) You can only "lose your Faith" "IF"..... #1. God's Spirit has not REVEALED Jesus to you..... #2. You do not understand what biblical "Faith" is, which is EVIDENCE, and it s NOT "believing" something BLINDLY. It takes HEARING FROM GOD "personally" to GROUND YOU in the Faith, if not, there will be NO REALITY OF GOD. This is the whole point of the Parable Jesus taught, "The Sower Sows the Word". The "seed" of God's Word must FIRST fall into Good Ground. Then grow to Full Fruition, and at "Harvest", God REVEALS HIMSELF, or you HEAR GOD'S VOICE.
Why do people want to believe in a god? Many reasons. Why do people want to believe in Jesus? Peter's answer is our answer. How do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true? Ask Jesus and build the relationship with Jesus - read the Bible and talk to HIM.
Why rely on faith at all? Faith is not a virtue nor a reliable pathway to truth at all. Literally anything can be taken on faith, including religions and gods you don’t believe in.
I think we’re functioning with different definitions of faith. I take faith to be synonymous with trust, which is a source of knowledge when placed in things/people that are trustworthy. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great question! Philosophical arguments? Scientific research? Strictly controlled historical method? Wise counsel? Personal experience? Application of the intelligent agent principle? The Christian tradition I’m part of now would say “all of the above!” I, personally find the classic arguments for God’s existence compelling. And this coming Tuesday (on the podcast) I’m releasing an interview with a historian on the resurrection of Jesus. I invite you check it out and let me know what you think. :) Matt@truthsnack.ca
Proof your religion is twisted: My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
@@DoubtersWelcome The classic arguments for some god's existence relate to the claimed necessity for some sort of god. William Lane Craig commonly uses these arguments. However, they get us nowhere in validating the Christian narrative which is a clear ancient superstition based on the trilogy of grossly immoral foundations of original sin, human blood sacrifice and substitutionary atonement. The whole idea that we can avoid taking personal responsibility for what we do wrong because a human blood sacrifice has already acted as a scapegoat is a cop out. Moral people do take responsibility and, if they someone, make it up t6 that person, not ask forgiveness from an imaginary friend who is not the one harmed.
Hey thanks for watching and commenting! :) I'm not calling the Bible a liar. I am saying that not every text in the Bible ought to be interpreted in the most literal possible way. The Bible uses metaphor and is filled with poetic and symbolic language. Granted, not all of the Bible should be interpreted that way. But if we are to approach the Bible on its own terms and read it according to genre, always taking the most literal interpretation would be a misstep. For example, Jesus says "I am the door." While he is a real door (in one sense), he certainly is not a literal door! Furthermore, 2 Timothy 3 nowhere instructs us to always interpret the Bible literally (nor does any other passage in the Bible). Beyond that clarification, I affirm everything else that passage says. Lastly, I would just like to say that if the distinction I've made above challenges your faith in any way, it should not! I implore you to truly consider what I've said in the last half of this video. It's for you. Thanks again!
I was taught that the creation and flood stories are literal science and history and that the rest of the Bible depends on those claims. I then learned that the creation and flood did not happen. These are a genuine dichotomy on the question of literal events. It is possible to interpret the Bible as mythology in those passages, but if we do that, we are now in the realm of aesthetic and moral choices. To say that I need to engage in intellectual humility when I find other stories to be better than the Bible, but Christians are thinking appropriately when they prefer the Bible's stories is just Christian smugness.
@@gregcampwriter Hello Friend, No, I am not saying that the Bible is "corrupt". What I am saying is, to "Know" TRUTH, you must have the "witness" of God Himself on the INSIDE of you where TRUTH needs to be in order to be REALITY to you "personally". Being taught by "men" is where we ALL START OUT because we are not born with the Knowledge of God or "spiritual" things. But being taught by "men" is an "outward" knowledge or "mental" knowledge which is basically "blindly" believing something that is NOT A REALITY on the INSIDE of us, in our "spirit", where TRUTH needs to be in order for us to "KNOW", and not just "believe". We are just basically "believing" HEARSAY testimony which even in man's justice system is "rejected" for obvious reasons. No one ever starts out "KNOWING" that the Bible is really the Word of God. We ALL START OUT just "believing" after we have read it ourselves or heard God's Words from someone else. The ONLY WAY that someone can "KNOW" that the Bible is is fact, God's Word, is for God to REVEAL THAT TO YOU "personally" By His Spirit. I am assuming that you are NOT a "Christian" from your question, so I will leave you with this thought about HOW God REVEALS HIMSELF to us through His Word. Jesus taught a Parable called "The Sower Sows the Word" found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, & Luke 8, I encourage you to read this because if you are a sincere "seeker" of the Truth, this will be a real "eye opener" for you. In Luke 8:11 which is when Jesus is "explaining" what the Parable MEANS, He says that "The SEED is the Word of God". So when we read God's Word or "hear" God's word from another person, It is God's Word in SEED FORM coming to us, NOT God's Word in HARVEST FORM or "Revelation" form where God actually REVEALS HIMSELF and His Word to us in our "spirit". When you plant "seeds" in a garden, there is NO "manifestation" or EVIDENCE of anything at SEED TIME. The "manifestation" or EVIDENCE comes at HARVEST TIME after that "seed" falls into Good Ground and grows to Full Maturity, and at HARVEST, you have the EVIDENCE of what kind of 'seed' that you planted. This is EXACTLY how God operates through His Word which is a "seed".. An orange seed brings forth ORANGES at Harvest Time, God "seed" , (His Word), brings forth GOD at Harvest Time. And remember, there is a LONG GROWING SEASON between "Seed Time" & "Harvest".
@@menmustchangebeforekingdoms Brevity is the soul of wit. Thanks for verbosely admitting that your god can't blame me if I don't worship him, since he hasn't revealed himself to me.
@@gregcampwriter I apologize for the long drawn out explanation, but you are correct, until God Reveals Himself to you, How could you possibly Worship Him ? If you did, you would be "Worshiping" IN VAIN not "knowing" WHO you are worshiping. Jesus said, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit AND IN TRUTH" (John 4:24) Worshiping God IN TRUTH means you KNOW WHO HE IS. And only God can REVEAL HIMSELF to you. And He does this "through" His Word, by "drawing" you to His Word first. Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM....: It is written in the prophets, And they shall ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD . Every man therefore that has HEARD, and has LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes unto Me" (John 6:44,45 ) And lastly, " But WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please God: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6) "Faith" comes from God, so unless God GIVES YOU "Faith", you cannot PLEASE HIM. So if you want to experience "Faith" and you want to KNOW WHO God is, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)
Proof your religion is twisted: My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire. Does that mean she truly loved me? My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean he truly loved me? If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse. Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT. This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
When I was in Catholic schools as a child and was force fed dogma. It all seemed odd but I thought I must not understand because all of these more experienced teachers must know more than I. The older I became the less I believed and not the reverse. Reading the Bible on my own I was able to see exactly what you described above made me stop believing and I believe it helped me to be a better person without the threatening aspects. I want to be kind and good to others because it makes me feel better and not because I am afraid of hell.
Hey! Thanks for watching. If by that you mean that I don’t defend Christianity in this video, or show people how to decide for themselves if Christianity is true, you’re right… But ya know, I can only do so much in on vid. If you’d like it thoughts on why I’m still a follower of Jesus, there are tons of videos about that on the channel! :)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m an atheist, but have been diving back into religious argumentation on both sides lately to better understand believers and have good discussions.
This popped up in my feed, and wow I’m impressed! Informative video - I generally agree and see how my own deconversion experience aligns with this. Since being an atheist, I’ve just felt frustrated now when engaging with BAD Christian arguments when I know much better ones exist(but didn’t even learn them until after leaving).
My ultimate conclusion though is different - I think I’m grateful I wasn’t exposed to the more nuanced arguments, because they would’ve been good tools to make myself feel better, and I may not have broken free of the magical thinking.
From my current perspective, I see there are great arguments when working backwards from a pre-made conclusion, but they just don’t hold up the same when viewed without the emotional attachment to the belief system.
There is no argument, they just cherry pick their immoral slaver Gods book to fit whatever agenda they have.
It’s as baseless and made up as any other religion on earth.
Love me or burn for eternity, it’s your choice! Yeah, no thanks.
Hey, thanks for watching!
And thanks for the high compliment. It means a lot! I hope you feel my video did not present a model of "working backwards from a pre-made conclusion." I think the final question I posed, "How do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true?" is fair and neutral. It can be asked and answered by anyone, regardless of worldview. It intentionally does not assume the truthfulness of Christianity in asking. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. :)
Have a great day.
@@DoubtersWelcome Oh no I absolutely don’t think your video presented that people should work backwards from the conclusion. That’s just my own perspective as I think it’s the only way the arguments hold up(but I understand many see it differently haha).
I don’t think that someone who still has belief can look at the facts entirely objectively, due to all of the factors that make continued belief more comfortable. There’s going to be a bias there, and that bias is what turns compelling but ultimately unconvincing arguments into actually convincing ones(and I should specify I’m speaking generally).
@Luquasio - Hello Friend, I would like to give you a different "perspective" since you are "open" to them. You mentioned your "own "de-conversion", which implies that you were once "converted" or had a "conversion" experience. The scriptures reveal that God is the only one SOLELY responsible for "converting" someone's soul. Psalm 19:7 says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, CONVERTING THE SOUL: the TESTIMONY OF THE THE LORD IS SURE, making wise the simple.
Jesus told Peter, "Flesh & Blood, (or man), HAS NOT REVEALED to you that I am the Christ, but MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN" (Matthew 16:16,17)
So Jesus tells Peter that he heard DIRECTLY FROM GOD.
Jesus also said, "it is written in the Prophets; They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD:
Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes unto ME. " (John 6:45)
Again Jesus says we must HEAR and LEARN DIRECTLY FROM GOD in order to be "converted", and once that happens it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk away because you have just heard from God "yourself"
In John 3, Jesus says that we must have a "Spiritual" Birth or be "Born Again" which is actually the "conversion" experience.
And James 1:18 reveals that this "Birth" is SOLELY of God's doing, NOT man's.
"Of God's own will, He begat us, (or Fathered us), with the Word of Truth,.." (James 1:18). This agrees with Psalm 19:7 above that it is God and His Word that "converts us".
MAN is responsible for the "Natural" Birth.
GOD is responsible for the "Spiritual" Birth.
So my question to you is, when you look back, does your original "conversion" experience line up with what the Scripture says about only God "converting" you ?
If any of these people were truly honest they would just admit their afraid of going to hell.
If they bothered to look into it they'd see there wasn't a hell until around the 4th century to help convert Greeks and other pagan religions to Christianity since they had very firm beliefs in their version of a heaven and hell.
@@1235tristan they never do. I'm a very casual researcher and know more of the history of their religion than most of them. 10 minutes on Google absolutely destroys the Bibles narrative.
@@JesusChristIsLord.PraiseGOD.
I saw your handle. Do you think you're Jesus or just that much of a narcissist.
@@JesusChristIsLord.PraiseGOD. Why do other religions and beliefs exist then? Are they all wrong or right?
@@JesusChristIsLord.PraiseGOD. Lol. As soon as you accept that one religion or belief isn't correct or real you're accepting that all of them including your own may not be real. Of course you're too biased and deluded to understand that but I think that's hilarious. Also what you just said literally makes no sense at all.
The last few minutes of this vid were my fave. The notion that if there's no room to express doubt then the only option is to leave is a great point. 😊
Truth Snack,
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Keep the God belief but ditch the abusive narcissistic God of the Bible, or it will just be Cherry picked more and more and more until it’s only hanging on by a thread
What about the God of Bernadette Soubirous?
@@hyreonkwhat about it? It’s a subjective experience that cannot be investigated. People of different faith backgrounds have different experiences, like Native American spirituality, Hindus, Muslims, and Christians etc
One religion could be right, or all can be wrong.
@@Username34823 I was not so much interested in the Marian apparition, or even the supernatural knowledge she had about the term Immaculate Conception, or even the 70 miraculous healings associated with the well she dug up, prompted by the apparition. Even if you were convinced they were real, you would grieve, not celebrate, because you think the God of the Bible did these things, and the God of the Bible is a monster.
I'm asking about the person Bernadette Soubirous. She worshipped the God of the Bible. What do you think? Should her God be worshiped?
"Soubirous spent the rest of her brief life at the motherhouse, working as an assistant in the infirmary and later as a sacristan, creating ornate embroidery for altar cloths and vestments. Her contemporaries admired her humility and spirit of sacrifice. One day, asked about the apparitions, she replied: 'The Virgin used me as a broom to remove the dust. When the work is done, the broom is put behind the door again.'"
"Since the Apparitions, Lourdes had to deal with about 7000 cases of unexplained cures. 69 cases have been recognised as miraculous by the Church at this time."
"In the 160 years since Soubirous dug up the spring, 70 cures have been verified by the Lourdes Medical Bureau as 'inexplicable' - after what the Catholic Church claims are 'extremely rigorous scientific and medical examinations' that failed to find any other explanation."
70 cases like Jean-Pierre Bély. Visited Lourdes: 9 October 1987. Age 51, French. Multiple sclerosis. His cure was recognised on 9 February 1999.
We are no longer under the laws like in the OT. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the laws. We have come under grace. We are now in the New Testaments era. If Jesus can tell someone who asked him how many times do I have to forgive my brother, he said, 7×70 times. How much more will God forgive us when we ask for his forgiveness. He also said, "Be anxious about nothing but bring your supplication unto me." Don't let wrong teaching cause unnecessary anxiety in us.
@@Iris-2023gh First of all. Just because you don’t follow the laws of the OT doesn’t mean they aren’t immoral. And In Matthew 5:17 states: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.”
No where in the NT is slavery condemned. It’s only ever condoned.
Do you get your morals from God?
Is it morally permissible to own another human being as property against their will?
If you don’t think it’s moral, either “God” condoned an objectively evil thing you disagree with, or… you’re in a cult that has lied to you repeatedly
Question your beliefs or spend your single life on earth worshipping an Bronze Age book full of disgusting immoral teachings
The only thing that can "save" your faith is either not understanding reasonable arguments, or actively rejecting reasonable arguments.
@@He.knows.nothing "Jesus never gave "
What did Jesus give us exactly?
@@thecrowing1989 logos incarnate, manifested through his actions and stories.
Alright. Can you prove it?
Can you prove that Jesus never claimed to be God? That he didn’t rise from the dead?
Christians are making the positive statment, therefore they should provide the necessary evidence to warrant belief in said claim, which of course they haven't@@KettouRyuujin
@@thecrowing1989 logos incarnate, through his stories and actions
abandoning my faith while yielding to the hard truth has been the most liberating and awakening experience I have ever had. Getting born again was cool and all, but finally waking up to reality has benefited every aspect of my existence. My hope is for everyone to experience our world with a sober mind, without supernaturalistic ideas clouding their paradigm
@sciencesaves - Hello, When you say that you "yielded to the hard truth", what I beleive that you are really saying is either you came up with your "own Truth" in your own "carnal" reasoning, or you heard the so-called "Truth" from MAN and NOT GOD. You also said, "Getting born again was cool and all, but finally waking up to reality...". This statement is a contradiction and reveals that you never had the "Spiritual" Birth, but your Church probably only used that term "Born Again" as a TITLE ONLY.
Because having the 'Spiritual" Birth is when God REVEALS HIMSELF to you in REALITY by His Spirit after the "seed" of His Word has fallen into the Good Ground of your Heart, and then grows to Full Maturity, as Jesus taught in the parable of the "Sower Sows the Word".
The "Natural" birth is a REALITY EXPERIENCE, and it is the RESULT of a "seed" being planted in Good Ground.
It is the EXACT SAME in the "Spiritual" Birth, it is the RESULT of the "seed" of God's Word falling into the Good Ground of your heart and growing to HARVEST, which is the BIRTH.
In the "Natural" Birth, your MOTHER is "revealed" to you.
In the "Spiritual" Birth, GOD is "revealed" to you.
They are both "tangible" REALITY EXPERIENCES and you KNOW if it has happened to you or not.
And if it has, it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk away from the God who has just REVEALED HIMSELF to you by His Spirit.
I am not trying to "criticize" anything that you have been through because I know very well what certain "denominations" can do to a person, because
we ALL START OUT NOT KNOWING God, and most of us will hear the Gospel preached from another "man" at first.
I do not know the "extent' of you reading the Scriptures on your "own" without commentary, but reading the scriptures on my own, in my own house is what led me to eventually have the "Spiritual Birth", and it is REAL, and JESUS IS WHO HE CLAIMS TO BE.
@@menmustchangebeforekingdoms I was a Southern Baptist music minister, then Calvary Chapel. I attended Word of Life Bible college. Sorry you spent your time and energy typing all of that, but I get it, I would have too 15 years ago. I wish you the best on your journey
@@sciencesaves Thank you Friend, I pray the best for you on your journey as well. I will leave you with this thought....Unless we hear from God "personally", and God REVEALS HIMSELF to us in REALITY, there would be no point in "pretending" to "believe" in something that we have not 'experienced". I get it, and that is the Truth. This is why Jesus said many times that it is God's Will to REVEAL HIMSELF to us in REALITY in order to "ground" us in the TRUTH.
Jesus said, "Flesh and Blood (or man) has NOT REVEALED that I am The Christ to you Peter, but MY FATHER which is in Heaven"
(Matthew 16:16,17)
Jesus also said,
"It is written in the Prophets: They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD, (not man).
Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes to Me". (John 6:45)
Again, this is why Jesus told His Disciples to "wait for the Promise" of the Spirit because He would "teach them in all truth", NOT "man".
We all "start out" with "man", but God wants us to "end" with HIM ONLY.
Take Care, Friend.
8:20 I love how you admit you were failing to confirm everything you were taught, but immediately said you "decided" to focus on some bullshit that enabled you to keep believing... dude, your faith was never in question, you just decided to lower the bar as to how far you're willing to suspend your cognitive abilities to keep believing in something you don't have any good evidence for. It's just sad.
But, you see, there's a podacst with Bible scholars coming.
You know what I'd like to see? Anecdotal reports from people who made 'faith' decisions one way or the other because they thought a video like this coming across their screen was a 'sign from above' instead of the algorithm trying train a model on the user.
"i was frantically trying to confirm *everything* I had been taught, but I was failing"
keyword: *everything*
logical fallacy: the fallacy of composition
just because he was failing to confirm *everything* doesn't entail that *everything* is incorrect.
_____________________________________
"some bullshit that enabled you to keep believing"
- this is an assumption that it's bullshit
"your faith was never in question"
-an assumption based on a false premise
"you just decided to lower the bar"
-there is nothing that entails him lowering the bar, this is asserted without any evidence
"suspend your cognitive abilities"
definition of suspend: temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect
explanation of cognitive abilities: “reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience”
in no way does anything mentioned entail him temporarily preventing the continuation of his ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience, much of the video insinuates the exact opposite actually.
"believing in something you don't have any good evidence for. It's just sad"
definition of belief - trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
according to this definition, a belief can in fact be asserted without "good evidence"
also, this comment is dishonest. this video isn't about him asserting evidence or belief, it's about the process of deconversion and his own personal story as to why he didn't reach this supposed "final step".
"it's just so sad"
reading your comment makes me sad that people who think like you exist. not atheists, I like them, but nincompoops like you? Who have no consideration for the importance of a personal experience? I personally dislike you.
In no way is this video trying to convince you of anything, and yet here you are shoving your *dogma* down people's throats. shame. overall you present a very weak description of this dudes narrative that lacks an incremental amount of nuance, and after all, like Hitchens said. "anything that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", the majority of your claims lack any fundamental evidence and therefore can be dismissed without evidence.
@@billdecompsa4705 I appreciate the time you took to respond to my comment. I think you went a bit overboard in overanalizing every single word and its meaning, but hey, that's up to you... also, english is not my first language, so I may have used some wrong terms...
The fact you expect some random dude on youtube comments to justify every single word they say is a bit weird... it's my opinion and I think the evidence is the video itself...
I don't have any issues with personal experience, but in the case of this video, I think this is in no way valuable, because he was never trully near deconversion... he never really questioned anything, was never intellectually honest...
oh and please do not confuse faith with trust or confidence, it just shows how weak your position is... trust or confidence is based on evidence and is a reliable path to truth, faith is the opposite.
@@pabloyelpo707 I agree with you're first two paragraphs, and I found no fault with your English or use of words, only with the context.
Like you said, it's your opinion, but you also making baseless claims that you proceed to make once more in this reply, such as "he was never truly near deconversion", "he never really questioned anything", and "was never intellectually honest". These statements themselves are intellectually dishonest as this video isn't at all going over the details of his personal journey and what he explored but instead a process by which deconversion happens.
You're last paragraph is entirely arguable and seems to be simply based on a difference in interpretation, and therefore is most likely not worth arguing.
@@pabloyelpo707 as to expand upon the response to your last point, no. That definition of belief comes directly from the Oxford dictionary and isn't simply just me speculating, that is a widely accepted definition. And I therefore confused nothing, while they are all different things they can still be related and you can't simply assert that I'm confusing faith with trust or confidence, I'm defining belief, so please don't attempt to strawman my point.
Also, theres nothing wrong with going overboard analyzing something. I'm sure someone who disagrees with me will come along and do the exact same, but that's life. I'm not a genius but I am sad that you find it saddening people have ended up with a different world view than you and in response resort to trying to undermine their journey which you know nothing about. That is you being *dishonest* with yourself.
But hey dude, you do you but I overall disagree with the baseless points you made in your comment and therefore responded.
Hmm. Not sure what the researcher looked at, but his steps really didn't follow my journey, with the possible exception of the "stressors". After 20 years of so of being a Christian, I simply asked myself one day why I believe anything the pastor was saying or anything the bible claimed. That began a five year attempt to find good reasons to believe - because I really wanted to - and for me the attempt failed miserably. I didn't need inerrancy or fundamentalism, there was no major trigger event, I wasn't isolated - my conclusion was that Christianity simply makes no sense. Contradictions and inconsistencies certainly help cast doubt on things, but I wouldn't call them the "core".
I think that's possible. Joel is still doing his work, but in his online article (linked in description) he does make a distinction between those who actively deconvert verses those who simply find themselves drifting away over time. You might find the article helpful or giving additional info. Thanks for watching and commenting. :)
@@DoubtersWelcome Hmm. Not sure I fully understand the distinction, but would be interesting to see him work his ideas out further, maybe attach some kind of stats.
My journey to atheism was similar.
I love this video! Ive been going through my own deconstruction and choosing which things to believe or not believe instead of having an all or nothing approach. I talk about it on my channel as well. Im shocked this video doesn’t have more views!!
I'll check out your channel tomorrow, but I get the feeling we should chat sometime! Thanks for the encouraging words.
The problem with religion that the most people take the good parts of it, since those are so comforting and sooth our fear of death, never feel alone, etc.
However, people who take religion as it should have been -without cherry picking-, are become monsters.
Hhmmmmm....😊 people are become monsters with no help from anybody or anything else. Religion is not a monster maker, monsters will use anything they can to be more monstrous. The best things always get used the most.
@@duaneburris7ate9 So, how about not let them use more legal tools to scam and potentially corrupt people even easier. Plenty of reasons to eradicate bogus beliefs, but not many positive ones.
@@duaneburris7ate9 You are wrong. Religion can very well be a monster maker. It is based on an eternal carrot-and-stick tactic. This is monstrous and violates human dignity. Children who are brought up in a religious environment with such monstrous ideas are actually being abused.
@@duaneburris7ate9 Religion has always increased hatred. Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Blaise Pascal: “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”
There is nothing like allegiance to an imaginary friend to make you hate those who do not share your allegiance.
@@Illawong everything increases everything...
you should learn about the BITE model. Behavioral, information, thought, & emotion. These are the four pillars of control held by high-control groups. Make sure you're not walking into one right now. Make sure you're not being led down a specific path set forward by someone else. Make sure you're not setting up a framing device for all other information so you can safely dismiss it and put it into boxes that let you control and integrate the dissonant information into your worldview.
I am a missionary in a small community. I stood up to say basically this and I was to told to take back what I said, I didn't and lost financial support, I'm still serving in that community they are not. God sustained me through and the ministry thrived... Just not so much financially though lol.
The fact that you have survived has nothing to do with your imaginary friend.
@@IllawongJesus loves you.
@@LalmuanzualaMuanzuala-dh9ug Jesus has been dead for two thousand years. He has been unable to love anyone since then.
@@Illawong He rose again for your justification, put your trust in Him and you will be saved.
@@LalmuanzualaMuanzuala-dh9ug That is a religious tall story, the same as the accounts of the other 4,000 gods believed in by the gullible throughout history.
You are better served putting your trust in yourself and the people who really love you instead of a fictional being who does nothing but the indoctrinated constantly tells you he loves them. Do you not have any real people loving you that you need to resort to an imaginary friend?
Albert Einstein: "The word God is nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change anything about this. All religions are an incarnation of the most childish superstition".
4:53 I have been getting triggers and processing, triggers and processing for 40 years.
Still not deconverting.
try logic, reason, and critical thinking. That might help.
@@coul It's precisely because of them that I'm not deconverting.
@@hglundahl Sounds like you're in denial like I was for many years. Fortunately, I found the truth when I was in my twenties. After about age 40ish, the chances of deconversion are very slim. People get so attached to their beliefs they can't let them go.
@@coul Sounds like I'm safe then, I'm 55.
Meanwhile, I have one way or another been confronting arguments against the faith since I was a few months short of 15.
@@hglundahl Oh yeah, you're safe! There's almost zero chance of finding your way out at 55. It's practically unheard of. You might as well sit back and enjoy the reality you've come to accept.
Your example of Jesus giving us the space to come to the conclusion for ourselves is going the thing you’re saying it doesn’t do. He’s literally giving them do you want to leave too as the only option compared to full belief and obedience. He didn’t say do you have questions or anything that allows for nuance. These are people who are just completely either bought into him. He says things harshly so that people just leave. Also, why would the god of the universe inspire these books for them to not be totally true especially if he then requires beliefs in some of these doctrines for salvation? If he’s real he’s set up the questioner to abandon reason and consistency on the base of dogmatic belief. That can’t be the good god of the Bible who leads to all truth and tells you to test and see for yourself.
Hi. Thanks for watching.
I think when you look at the whole of the Gospels you’ll see that the disciples did have lots of questions and doubt still. Peter would still reject Jesus, then come back! Jesus was not giving them an all-or-nothing, certainty-only choice in this instance. I brought it up to say that he is not coercing them to stay or believe. That’s important when we realize that coercive pressure just isn’t helpful when it comes to seeking the truth.
It’s the carnal mind vs the spiritual mind. The Bible is a spiritual book and one needs the Holy Spirit abiding to understand it and just watch the pages of the Bible leap out like it’s a movie and you’re in it and that’s how He shows you the truth.
Childlike disposition is what we need. Why do we tell a child about who and what God is and they believe? A powerful prayer one can say is to say Father forgive my unbelief and give me a believing heart. Faith is just our soul coming into terms that God is all in all so spirit of doubt and cloud of darkness around me begone.
Jesus loves us!
Remember that we are fighting in victory and not for victory.
The Holy Spirit which leads us to all truths
3:44 I have probably not yet come that close to seeing differences, except perhaps the hour of Crucifixion.
Was He condemned or nailed midday on Good Friday?
One solution is "sixth hour" in the condemnation account in St. John refers to sixth hour of the night, i e midnight.
That he was crucified on Parascheve doesn't mean leavened bread was thrown out that day, it could simply mean on the Friday, the Pesakh still ongoing, as most tend to think now, or He could have started Nisan a day before the Temple did (Nisan started when the new moon was sighted, and Jesus was out of reach from communicating with the temple, and further west, meaning He could have sighted the new moon one evening earlier).
Or "parascheve" could refer to the Jewish judges still waiting to midnight before having the Seder, as I just suggested.
But a common solution to the timing problem is, His condemnation was pronunced not too long before the Crucifixion.
The reason I deconverted was beacuse I grew up being told "Scientists teach X, Y, Z" by Christians, which were blatantly false. Once I actually looked into what Scientists said, it was the exact opposite I was told by Christians. This example can be used for evolution, how old the universe is, how old the earth is, how long humans have been around, etc. What I was told by Christians growing up has been proven false every time I actually looked into it for myself.
Hey! Thanks for watching.
I think what you're saying makes perfect sense, and this video is exactly for you. Can I suggest that you were offered some all-or-nothing paradigms that made no space for the fact that all those scientific facts can be true, and Christianity true as well! :)
@@DoubtersWelcome I don't think any scientific theories rule out god or Christianity, but the lies from Christians about what scientists claim set me on that path really fast. Why I don't believe Christianity is true is the lack of evidence for god, the bible isn't a trustworthy source of history, and if Christianity were actually true and Christians had the holy spirit, it would be quite evident among the Christian community that it would be undeniable to atheists like me, but it's not. Christians are no different that those supposedly without the holy spirit.
I think in principle both could be true (I accepted evolution the whole time I was Christian). But I've come to disbelieve, in part, due to the disharmonious fit between these elements of reality and mainstream orthodox Christian teaching. For example, the development of homo sapiens contrasted with any form of the doctrine of Original sin taught in the West. All the best to you.
@@DoubtersWelcomeSorry, but christianity is not compatible with scientific observation.
So you should change your questions to strengthen your beliefs 🤔 ! Sounds more like manipulation than faith ! Stuff like this is why I now longer believe. Also a great help was Brandon at mindshift here on RUclips! He has way more answers than the bible does
Hey. Thanks for watching.
Yes, we should change the questions we ask if it means asking a more relevant, more foundational question.
It sounds like you’ve changed your beliefs and I’m sure the questions you asked shifted as well.
I leave the truthfulness of Christianity out of this video, I just try to help doubting Christians ask the central questions. :)
Have a good day.
I think a lot of people including myself become atheist because of the mountain of evidence showing our religious beliefs are not real. I'd also answer no to your core 3 questions. 1. You can't honestly answer that question either way as true or false. 2. I have a hard time believing someone rose from the dead and nobody but the bible's authors wrote about that event. That's the story of the millennia, we should have multiple writings on the event if true. 3. The Bible has far too many contradictions and inaccuracies to be either written or inspired by a perfect God it's clearly written by men. You even bring up contradictions in this video. Normally when a person tells you a story twice but both times the story is different you know they're lying, yet when the Bible does the same thing people ignore it.
Next Tuesday I’m releasing a podcast episode with a historian on the resurrection of Jesus. He and I both wrestle with doubts sometimes so I think you’ll find the conversation honest. But he also presents some arguments I found fascinating. I would love to hear your thoughts after it comes out.
This historian (Mike Licona), has also written a book called “Why there are differences in the Gospel.” You should check it out!
@@DoubtersWelcome I'll give it a watch.
3:05 I am so thankful to my ma, of the "setting conditions" nothing except what some would consider textualism was there.
When stressors arrived, and they still do, the closest they came to making me lose my faith was when I was half an hour tempted to consider Calvinism as true, and myself as one of those predestined to damnation. I actually do consider Double Predestination (or U + L in that black TULIP of theirs) as outside Christianity.
3:26 I would agree with your then assessment.
He did it the first time, Pharisees hold Him under some cloud of suspicion. But they are still "giving Him a second chance" ...
He did it the second time, "repeat offense" and He's crucified.
Where was the actual data for the article? It is not listed in the author's work. To me, it just reads like an OPED.
He's a PhD student. It isn't yet published.
@@DoubtersWelcome Got ya.
8:50 I don't know how my Apoloogetics would work on someone actually at the tip of throwing out the faith.
I'm pretty sure, it could be very helpful for those who have already decided for the faith and are now working through the details.
10:27 It's because of the kind of faith Jesus wants us to have in His Eucharist.
I'd argue that most people don't want to be Christian. Most of them ONLY do it to avoid hell. Which I'm skeptical exists.
Although I'm an athiest now, I was traumatized by religion so much that I still carried that fear of hell for 2 years afterward.
For people who fear hell: Even IF it was real, how can you feel hellfire without a nervous system? You dont "take that with you" when you go.
Hey, thanks for watching!
I’m curious, do you feel you were ever able to make the shift from “Rescuing content” to “rescuing belief” before deconverting?
No problem man!
No, because like you, I was failing to justify the content. (Which is the Bible primarily, not only th "teachings of people") and I didn't ignore that
When I looked at the content(Bible) objectively without the Christian biases, I realized how much I was lied to, and how much Christians don't actually know about the bible! This scriptures get spun to all hell.
With Christian bias: Noah's arks is a beautiful story about his faith in God
Without bias: it's a diety committing a horrific genocide simply because people were using that free will that he gave them. Not to mention, the only person he spoke to was Noah, so of course Noah would be "the only holy one".
I could go on and on, but in conclusion, no, i wasn't able to make that shift. If I felt the need to rescue my belief, that's probably a sign there's something off.
@@treminicusrex329you made the right choice to follow your heart and logic over an immoral Bronze Age book written by slavers.
No where on the evolutionary timeline did God start sending people to heaven or hell, wish people thought harder about their beliefs.
Yes because where you were born and the religion you were taught is undoubtedly the real deal other religions can't be right geography has decided lol
One of the best pieces of advice I got early on in my faith is don't let what you don't know effect what you do know.
My basic understanding of the Heart of the Gospel is pretty much the same as my early beliefs but the why is different and so much deeper because I always stuck to the idea if Jesus is the truth then going after the truth is fine as he promises to guide us in truth. I knew God had taken me from the world (worldly ideas and thoughts) so while my salvation was secured my sanctification is an ongoing process. I knew I would change because I am not perfect and God never accepted me on that premise either.
God is Greater than our doubts and above our performance.
I know what my life was without Jesus and no Way am I going back to it. As you mentioned and Peter said in John 6 "where will we go Lord?You have the words of life." Everything in my spirit knows this.
Proof your religion is twisted:
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Grow up already and stop believing in Bronze Age fairy tales
Hey, thanks for watching.
I assure that I think often of what it would look like to stop believing in "Bronze Age fairy tales." But it's not that simple for me. I'd rather serious ask the question, "how do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true." If I were to just give it up without careful consideration, then I'd start asking "what if it is true?" Sadly, your bold, harsh statement is just another form of pressure and shaming that I have to resist if I want to honestly assess my beliefs. I hope you see what I'm trying to say.
Nonetheless, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Honestly, you should be ashamed for believing in something you don't have sufficient evidence to believe in. If you ask serious questions, but then immediately reject what the evidence shows you and instead choose to still believe in what you already believed in, then it's not only pointless, but also pretty dumb@@DoubtersWelcome
Iron Age actually, just dated retroactively to the Bronze Age. 😁
@@SeekingVirtueA yeah, Iron Age is more accurate, but I just like the poetry of "Bronze Age fairy tales"
Is this news to anyone? So, if you keep it vague and keep telling yourself its not actually literal, then you can keep it amorphous enough to keep the illusion alive? Also, the early church had no concept of legalism as people explain it today. The way you got forgiven was in baptism and the way you kept your promise was through keeping a clear conscience. This was unanimously understood. Excellent content, btw.
Hey, thanks for watching!
It was news to me! But just to be clear, I didn’t argue that we should keep it vague. I argued that we should start with the foundation and build from there. :)
@@DoubtersWelcome understood. I'm an atheist, but I was once a faithful biblical ND ancient near Eastern scholar. I think it's amazing how little "Christians" know about their Bible and faith. If we use the early church as a standard, then I've never actually met a Christian.
@@whitewings2363 When I was 16 atheist literature was introduced to me by a friend. It blew my faith away very quickly as I kept reading. Not the least because I was exactly like those "Christians" you mention: I thought I knew everything from going to church a few times, and owning a Bible (not that I read it...).
Apologetics here on RUclips has shown me how wrong those boyish assumptions were :)
It's a lot more complicated than I though.
Nice! What about Michal Heiser, are you familiar with his work?
He was ANE scholar that kept the faith although quite a few don't.
@betrion7 no, the name doesn't recall any association. I haven't read too much by way of commentary on the early church, aside from some historians and mythithists (mythithists are out to lunch).
I finished the video and am still confused, so what saved your faith?
Hey! Thanks for watching.
Pivoting from trying to confirm every single thing I was taught growing up (some of which was incorrect), and focusing on the core, foundational questions of Christianity instead. I believe in the video I say, "That shift probably saved my faith."
8:29 I have had no real problem rescuing content.
My faith was never at stake, even that half hour perhaps, when I considered becoming a Calvinist.
I'm so happy to live in the real world and not have to maintain an imaginary one!
Of course you have doubts about the validity of faith as a pathway to truth. That's reality whispering to you. And retreating into wishful and fearful superstition is not an escape from reality, it's only a denial that blunts your capacity for adult understanding and acceptance, so that you're functioning at a diminished level, more like a child playing make-believe, or a sheep waiting to be fleeced or slaughtered.
But if that's what you wish for yourself, go ahead. It's entirely up to you. I'm just so much happier to live in the real world. It's much more interesting,
Hey! Thanks for watching.
I’d love your take because it’s actually a tricky question and I’ve noticed Christians aren’t even sure how to answer it.
Christians often ask “how do I know Christianity is true,” but the question I pose in this video is “how do I question Christianity in a way that helps me know if it’s true or not.”
What I love about that variation is that anyone can answer it! Even a skeptic or atheist. Now, please believe me when I say I’m not asking to make a point. I’d genuinely love your take on that question. What methods have you applied to Christianity that helped you determine whether or not it’s false?
Have a great day.
Lol. These people are something else
You called up someone else to figure out why you didn't leave your faith. Your real problem is you don't think for yourself.
What you cite as ways to regain your faith is probably quite similar to what have increasingly drawn me to God and Christianity over especially the last year or so.
I'm really glad I clicked on this suggestion. Because the things that push us away from Christ, like the research says, I can relate to. It's part of what repels me.
My greatest source of help has come from RUclips where you find the likes of John Lennox, William Lane Craig, James Tour, Frank Turek, Josh and Sean McDowell, and Trent Horn. Not to mention the great channel Daily Dose of Wisdom.
I've found some stellar apologetics here, and they're really helping me, an atheist for 35 years, rethink his life and beliefs.
My most profound error when I turned away from God was assuming I knew everything there was to know about Christianity. I should have gotten help from someone who knew his theology. But I did my own, ignorant thing and ended up with the new atheists.
But, to borrow a phrase, I'm not sure I have enough faith to be an atheist anymore.
Hey! Thanks for watching.
Glad to have helped in a small way. If you feel like you’re a “doubter” I can relate. This channel is for those who need a place to be “honest about doubt but still hopeful about faith.” I’ve always felt it very hard to find places where you can be both.
Saying that you do not have enough faith to be an atheist is absurd and ignorant. I doubt very much that you were really an atheist for 35 years or you would have known that most atheists are agnostic. They do not claim to know the unknowable. There is no evidence that either no gods exist or that any god exists. The only rational position is, therefore, that of an Agnostic Atheist. The default position in any matter is to not believe in something that has insufficient evidence to justify that belief, i.e. not believing in a deity is the default position until evidence is found to the contrary and no faith is needed to hold the default position.
On the other hand, there is abundant evidence against any of the deities described so far as none of those descriptions match with what we know of reality.
Albert Einstein: "The word God is nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change anything about this. All religions are an incarnation of the most childish superstition".
@@DoubtersWelcome Let's just say that doubt is the only reason I'm here, and it's also why, over the last year, I've felt a strong attraction to Christianity *and* allowed myself to act on it.
I think by far that John Lennox has had the most impact on me as he explained what faith really means. Faith is not *certainty*. Faith is more like confidence.
Like if you and I met and you revealed your mind to me, I could gain confidence in you, but I would never be 100 % certain of you. That makes sense to me and also calibrated my understanding of how to discern and judge the evidence that is before me as it relates to God, his existence and his will.
I've seen and practiced enough (pathological) certainty in my life, and now in my fifties I'm more humble, and also more grace has found me. There's way too much pathological certainty running the show these days, and I hope to not be part of that anymore.
I was very certain as a new atheist, and boy did I let people know it.
I believe that I met Jesus in a dream last week. In my dream I couldn't open my eyes. Even when I pried my eyes open, my eyeballs would roll upwards in their sockets, as if I wanted to not see. It was like I could see but not see. But when I met Jesus in the dream my eyes opened and I could see again. I only met grace and love from the being in my dream. I think the symbolism regarding my eyes in the dream is plain enough. Much to digest.
What a blessing to see another small channel with struggling growth and good content. Just when I thought I was the only one persistently posting new content with disappointing results most of the time. Congratulations on having one break through the algorithm. Hope you find support for your channel, keep it real!
My research revealed page after page of contradictions, fictional characters and false, exaggerated claims.
The Bible writers were writing rebuttals against their Christian and Jewish opponents adding miracles, borrowing plagiarized stories from earlier texts and putting words of wisdom into the mouths of their imaginary characters. This went on for centuries as different groups with the talent and resources competed for power, influence and wealth.
Yeah, IDK about these. I'm in the process of reevaluating my faith right now and I don't think any of these factors fit very well. I have a sense that the 5 stages are a bit of a miscalculation, but not entirely wrong. I don't blame Joel--I can imagine that case study like that is tricky business.
That said, textualism is a factor for me, though I wouldn't articulate it in the way it was presented here. The problem for me is that I've come to understand that the Bible is demonstrably false in some places, and that in turn led to the erosion of some key doctrines built upon those passages. I also noticed that those had a cascade effect, both directly and indirectly. The direct effect primarily being that since the Bible contains passages that quote previous passages, the veracity of the later passages also come into question. The indirect effect being what those errors say about Christ, who affirmed and taught from books that contain error.
Simply choosing to believe at this point is not an option. More information is required. However, I do find that belief in God is not an easy thing to dismiss, and listening to atheists talk is more likely to drive me back to Christianity than it is to sway me to their views. So for the time being, I call myself a soft agnostic, though not perched firmly upon that ground.
Hey! Thanks for watching.
That’s very similar to my story. I thought that if the Bible had even one tiny, insignificant error that the whole faith crumbled. But I realized later (as described in this video) that it just doesn’t follow that “if the Bible has an error, Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.” That’s why I switched my focus first to the existence of God, then to the resurrection of Jesus, the finally to the scriptures.
When I put them in that order, it revamped my approach and I was able to rebuild faith. I highly recommend it.
In fact the podcast I’m releasing this Tuesday is on the resurrection. I’m interviewing a historian who also wrestle with doubts about the resurrection and subsequently did a PhD on the topic. You should check it out. I think you’d find it interesting, at the very least! :)
@@DoubtersWelcome Sounds good, and I will. There's more to my situation than I disclosed here, but I'm content to address one piece at a time.
@@jonfeuerborn5859 Of course! Feel free to only disclose that which you feel comfortable disclosing, particularly online! :)
I’m in a similar boat. No longer Christian but still believe in God. It seems atheism takes just as much if not more faith than any organized religion. They can also be very pretentious.
@@T-eu1tr Indeed. Pretentious and often angry. I've often mused that they're way too passionate about their belief in nothing.
How did they determine textualism? The definition seems extremely bias, how do they know they rejected all nuance and context? Isn't this supposed to be an study? Because it shows an extremely clear and obvious case of bias, which it absolutely is against what an study is supposed to be.
It doesn't matter if true or not, but applying something so obviously subjective and applying such a heavy judgement into what is supposed to be an study, is a heavy no no. One thing would be to simply say that an step was that they had problems with scripture, that is how an study should be conducted. But, categorizing as textualism, specially saying that less consideration is given to nuance or cultural context. Unless they specifically said that, it is a judgement imposed over something that is supposed to be an impartial study.
Hi. Thanks for watching. :)
You can find the whole article from Joel below if you want to read more. But Joel is reporting observations (not his opinion) based on the study of deconversion stories, told by the person who deconverted. So, if you don’t like the facts of their stories, I don’t think it’s fair to call Joel biased simply for reporting what they said about their own deconversion.
@@DoubtersWelcome "But Joel is reporting observations (not his opinion)"
But that is what I am saying, I will definitely read it. But defining it as textualism and the definition given of textualism is extremely biased.
"I don’t think it’s fair to call Joel biased simply for reporting what they said about their own deconversion."
But the is my point tho, it doesn't seem he is doing that. Unless they personally said they used textualism and defined it that way, it is indeed fair.
If we were to ask all of the people involved in the study, if they thought they were involved in textualism, and tended to ignore all nuance and cultural context of the verses, do you think they's agree?
An unbiased conclusion would be to say that in that step they had problems with scripture, and that is it.
To classify as textualism, and the definition given is to judge them and therefore it is a biased conclusion. Even if true, it is assigning judgement that can only be applied IF AND ONLY IF, the study subjects themselves classified it as textualism.
The difference is that they reported the classifications themselves and therefore it is unbiased. As opposed to having that classification IMPOSED to them, which makes it biased.
@@farrex0 I think I understand what you're saying and there's something to it that I'll keep thinking about, but the deconverts are not going to use unified language, so I think Joel is trying to synthesize it. What language they used exactly? Maybe it'll become clearer when his dissertation is published.
@@DoubtersWelcome Maybe, but the term and definition used seems quite uncharitable and with negative implications. To which I doubt most of the study subjects wouldn't be happy to be classified that way even if true.
Which is why I took issue to it.
Not to mention, how can you determine context or cultural context is being ignored? Did he have to go to every single verse mentioned by them and then subjectively determine if they are indeed ignored all nuance or the cultural context?
It seems there is so much room for error on the subjective side, to be able to ascribe said judgement in a non biased way.
And even if he studied every single verse, and found an objective way to determine interpretation, cultural context and nuance.... if they gave a single example or even two, there is no way to determine if those are the only verse they have issue with.
Again, even if true, the classification has so much room for subjectivity and judgement. Which even in an study, the person can't make a nuanced assessment.
Leviticus 20;13 : "If a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
NONE of that applies to me. I simply started to listen to other people and came to the conclusion that Christianity is not special. Justin Martyr was particularly "persuasive".
In my version of the parable of the sower, I discovered that other sowers had different crops that were just as nutritious as mine. Some had mixed crops. Some even lived in the wild and lived perfectly well on roots and berries. Different crops grow better in different soils. Then Christianity comes along and calls the sowers stubborn for not buying its particular brand of seed.
This sounds so much like Pentecostalism that I was first involved with ... I arrived at the same conclusions and went back to the core beliefs of Christianity... I think Hebrews 11:6 pretty much summed it up for me
I'd be fascinated to hear more of you story if you ever felt like sharing. Of course the is absolutely no pressure.
I hope your journey of faith is flourishing!
Proof your religion is twisted:
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
Christianity can be either true or not, right?
What convinced you of it to be true?
Researching whether God exists and whether Jesus rose from the dead.
@@DoubtersWelcome what convinced you of the existence of a god?
faith comes from hearing the word
Roman's 10 : 17 , hear the message of the cross , believe
Is the core belief that human blood sacrifice is necessary to atone for our sins true? Resounding no. It is absurd.
Hell seems like a very coercive way to get believers…
Not the worst take I’ve seen! I think the fundamentalists churches having the hardest time is a good point, that’s my background. But I think every fundamentalist who has ever deconverted has probably considered a more progressive Christianity before ditching it altogether. But, if you know the Bible is flawed which it is- then your religion becomes whatever you want. You want an angry vengeful god? There’s verses for that. You want god to love everyone? Verses for that. You want god to give you money, or do you want to live with the bare minimum and give everything else away? There’s verses for that. Your ego becomes your god.
I think it's much more important to follow the teachings of the Christian tradition (showing kindness towards others, etc) than to focus on one's faith and the belief in the supernatural elements.
Proof your religion is twisted:
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
It's called cherry-picking. Picking what doesn't hurt our 21th century morality.
Some of the Christian teachings are really weird. Mark 10:9 outlaws divorce. Matthew 5:18 makes all of the Old Testament law part of Jesus's teachings. There are many others. Skeptic's Annotated Bible has an inventory of the craziness.
If you are going to use some basis other than the Bible to reject the crazy Jesus teachings and accept "Love they neighbor as thyself" and similar popular Jesus teachings, you might as well use that other basis to make all of the decisions and then you don't need to try to get a 2000 year old book to make sense in your life.
Unless you have Christian friends who will shout "Get behind me, Satan" and shun you if you don't toe the line. I cannot presently help you with that situation.
10:00 Wait one minute. After a full video you land at: Let's look at what Jesus said?!
Kinda.... but not really... I contrast Jesus' non-coercive approach to religious belief with the coercive systems that Joel's research uncovers in churches. I think (in the context of Christian faith) it's relevant to discuss Jesus' approach, right?
Thanks for watching and commenting. :)
It is God's Spirit that REVEALS Jesus the Christ to a person's "spirit" and once that happens it is IMPOSSIBLE to "lose" your Faith because you have just HEARD FROM GOD "personally" BY REVELATION. Jesus said, "Flesh and Blood has NOT REVEALED that I am The Christ to you Peter, but MY FATHER which is in Heaven" (Matthew 16:16,17)
Jesus also said, "It is written in the Prophets: They shall all be TAUGHT BY GOD.
Therefore, whosoever has HEARD and LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes to Me"
(John 6:45)
You can only "lose your Faith" "IF".....
#1. God's Spirit has not REVEALED Jesus to you.....
#2. You do not understand what biblical "Faith" is, which is EVIDENCE,
and it s NOT "believing" something BLINDLY.
It takes HEARING FROM GOD "personally" to GROUND YOU in the Faith,
if not, there will be NO REALITY OF GOD.
This is the whole point of the Parable Jesus taught,
"The Sower Sows the Word".
The "seed" of God's Word must FIRST fall into Good Ground.
Then grow to Full Fruition, and at "Harvest", God REVEALS HIMSELF,
or you HEAR GOD'S VOICE.
Why do people want to believe in a god? Many reasons.
Why do people want to believe in Jesus? Peter's answer is our answer.
How do we question Christianity in a way that will help us know if it's actually true? Ask Jesus and build the relationship with Jesus - read the Bible and talk to HIM.
Why rely on faith at all?
Faith is not a virtue nor a reliable pathway to truth at all.
Literally anything can be taken on faith, including religions and gods you don’t believe in.
I think we’re functioning with different definitions of faith. I take faith to be synonymous with trust, which is a source of knowledge when placed in things/people that are trustworthy. Thanks for watching and commenting.
How can I determine if the core is true?
Great question!
Philosophical arguments? Scientific research? Strictly controlled historical method? Wise counsel? Personal experience? Application of the intelligent agent principle? The Christian tradition I’m part of now would say “all of the above!”
I, personally find the classic arguments for God’s existence compelling. And this coming Tuesday (on the podcast) I’m releasing an interview with a historian on the resurrection of Jesus. I invite you check it out and let me know what you think. :)
Matt@truthsnack.ca
@@DoubtersWelcome Who is the historian?
Dr Mike Licona@@scottgodlewski306
Proof your religion is twisted:
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
@@DoubtersWelcome The classic arguments for some god's existence relate to the claimed necessity for some sort of god. William Lane Craig commonly uses these arguments. However, they get us nowhere in validating the Christian narrative which is a clear ancient superstition based on the trilogy of grossly immoral foundations of original sin, human blood sacrifice and substitutionary atonement. The whole idea that we can avoid taking personal responsibility for what we do wrong because a human blood sacrifice has already acted as a scapegoat is a cop out. Moral people do take responsibility and, if they someone, make it up t6 that person, not ask forgiveness from an imaginary friend who is not the one harmed.
i think "Textual-ism" as you defined it is how the Bible describes itself according to 2 Tim. 3:16-17, so are you calling the Bible a liar?
Hey thanks for watching and commenting! :)
I'm not calling the Bible a liar.
I am saying that not every text in the Bible ought to be interpreted in the most literal possible way. The Bible uses metaphor and is filled with poetic and symbolic language. Granted, not all of the Bible should be interpreted that way. But if we are to approach the Bible on its own terms and read it according to genre, always taking the most literal interpretation would be a misstep. For example, Jesus says "I am the door." While he is a real door (in one sense), he certainly is not a literal door!
Furthermore, 2 Timothy 3 nowhere instructs us to always interpret the Bible literally (nor does any other passage in the Bible). Beyond that clarification, I affirm everything else that passage says.
Lastly, I would just like to say that if the distinction I've made above challenges your faith in any way, it should not! I implore you to truly consider what I've said in the last half of this video. It's for you.
Thanks again!
I was taught that the creation and flood stories are literal science and history and that the rest of the Bible depends on those claims.
I then learned that the creation and flood did not happen.
These are a genuine dichotomy on the question of literal events. It is possible to interpret the Bible as mythology in those passages, but if we do that, we are now in the realm of aesthetic and moral choices. To say that I need to engage in intellectual humility when I find other stories to be better than the Bible, but Christians are thinking appropriately when they prefer the Bible's stories is just Christian smugness.
@gregcampwriter The problem is, you were "taught by men", NOT BY GOD, and there is a big difference. "Man" is "corrupt", GOD IS NOT.
@@menmustchangebeforekingdomsAre you saying that the Bible is corrupt? And if so, how do you propose being taught by whatever god you have in mind?
@@gregcampwriter Hello Friend, No, I am not saying that the Bible is "corrupt". What I am saying is, to "Know" TRUTH, you must have the "witness" of God Himself on the INSIDE of you where TRUTH needs to be in order to be REALITY to you "personally". Being taught by "men" is where we ALL START OUT because we are not born with the Knowledge of God or "spiritual" things.
But being taught by "men" is an "outward" knowledge or "mental" knowledge which is basically "blindly" believing something that is NOT A REALITY on the INSIDE of us, in our "spirit", where TRUTH needs to be in order for us to "KNOW", and not just "believe".
We are just basically "believing" HEARSAY testimony which even in man's justice system is "rejected" for obvious reasons.
No one ever starts out "KNOWING" that the Bible is really the Word of God.
We ALL START OUT just "believing" after we have read it ourselves or heard God's Words from someone else.
The ONLY WAY that someone can "KNOW" that the Bible is is fact, God's Word, is for God to REVEAL THAT TO YOU "personally" By His Spirit.
I am assuming that you are NOT a "Christian" from your question, so I will leave you with this thought about HOW God REVEALS HIMSELF to us through His Word.
Jesus taught a Parable called "The Sower Sows the Word" found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, & Luke 8, I encourage you to read this because if you are a sincere "seeker" of the Truth, this will be a real "eye opener" for you.
In Luke 8:11 which is when Jesus is "explaining" what the Parable MEANS,
He says that "The SEED is the Word of God".
So when we read God's Word or "hear" God's word from another person,
It is God's Word in SEED FORM coming to us, NOT God's Word in HARVEST FORM or "Revelation" form where God actually REVEALS HIMSELF and His Word to us in our "spirit".
When you plant "seeds" in a garden, there is NO "manifestation" or EVIDENCE of anything at SEED TIME.
The "manifestation" or EVIDENCE comes at HARVEST TIME after that "seed" falls into Good Ground and grows to Full Maturity, and at HARVEST, you have the EVIDENCE of what kind of 'seed' that you planted.
This is EXACTLY how God operates through His Word which is a "seed"..
An orange seed brings forth ORANGES at Harvest Time,
God "seed" , (His Word), brings forth GOD at Harvest Time.
And remember, there is a LONG GROWING SEASON between
"Seed Time" & "Harvest".
@@menmustchangebeforekingdoms Brevity is the soul of wit.
Thanks for verbosely admitting that your god can't blame me if I don't worship him, since he hasn't revealed himself to me.
@@gregcampwriter I apologize for the long drawn out explanation, but you are correct, until God Reveals Himself to you, How could you possibly Worship Him ? If you did, you would be "Worshiping" IN VAIN not "knowing" WHO you are worshiping. Jesus said, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit AND IN TRUTH" (John 4:24)
Worshiping God IN TRUTH means you KNOW WHO HE IS.
And only God can REVEAL HIMSELF to you.
And He does this "through" His Word, by "drawing" you to His Word first.
Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM....: It is written in the prophets, And they shall ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD . Every man therefore that has HEARD, and has LEARNED FROM THE FATHER, comes unto Me" (John 6:44,45 )
And lastly, " But WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please God: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)
"Faith" comes from God, so unless God GIVES YOU "Faith", you cannot PLEASE HIM.
So if you want to experience "Faith" and you want to KNOW WHO God is,
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17)
sorry ignore my other comment i made it too early. what you need to do is an independent Bible study.
8:18 hmm, interesting
No. If you leave, you go to Hell.😱
I hope it was JESUS 😊
It was… In a way I can’t even put fully to words.
@@DoubtersWelcome he is the word....😊
@@DoubtersWelcome you, sir, sound noble and adventurous. Well done. 😊
Proof your religion is twisted:
My mom says she loves me, she asked if I loved her back. But I found out she is a murderer who killed babies. So I said I couldn’t, and then she lit me on fire.
Does that mean she truly loved me?
My God says he loves me, he asked if I loved him back, but I found out he drowned the world and all babies, condones the owning and beating of slaves… so I said no, I honestly can’t. Then he SENT ME TO HELL FOR ETERNITY.
Does that mean he truly loved me?
If your answers aren’t consistent, you’re a victim of cult like abuse.
Any God worthy of worship wouldn’t punish you for not worshipping him, and all his nonsense in the OT.
This is NOT the word of God, just a bunch of lies used to cope or control people.
New birth has evidence through goid fruits
When I was in Catholic schools as a child and was force fed dogma. It all seemed odd but I thought I must not understand because all of these more experienced teachers must know more than I.
The older I became the less I believed and not the reverse. Reading the Bible on my own I was able to see exactly what you described above made me stop believing and I believe it helped me to be a better person without the threatening aspects. I want to be kind and good to others because it makes me feel better and not because I am afraid of hell.
Would the good fruits of a Buddhist, Sihk, or Muslim confirm the truth of their faith traditions?
the content is so empty
Hey! Thanks for watching.
If by that you mean that I don’t defend Christianity in this video, or show people how to decide for themselves if Christianity is true, you’re right…
But ya know, I can only do so much in on vid. If you’d like it thoughts on why I’m still a follower of Jesus, there are tons of videos about that on the channel! :)