D&D Player Tips: Play an Anti-Hero Without Being an A-Hole
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- D&D Player Tips: Play an Anti Hero Without Being an A-Holes
Nerdarchy tackles playing an anti-hero in role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. The key is to do it in a way that doesn't spoil the fun of your DUngeon Master or the rest of your gaming group.
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So "Nordarchy", any classes/races that would be very good Anti-Heroes (besides of course the obvious rogue)?
Many players would benefit from watching this one, the anti hero is a popular and often wrongly role played. Also like that you brought up the sensitive topics and social contracts. Thanks for this one Nerdarchy 👍✌🖖
Hero = does the right thing for the right reasons.
Anti-hero = does the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Villain = does the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.
Anti-villain = does the wrong thing for the right reasons.
AmazingHatOfDreams, the best villains are the hero’s of their own stories. The best heroes are villains in someone’s story.
@@jeffersonian000 imo, mr freeze is an anti villian, whereas deadpool is an anti-hero, yeah sure, deadpool will save the damsel, but he just wants to bang, and mr freeze is doing the wrong thing, but it's always to save his wife, usually at any cost
If we're going off Introspection then yes, Motivation and Method matter.
But if we're going by Public Perception, then it's Outcome and Method that matters.
So you can have someone who wants to do Good, who uses Good methods, but who gets Bad results, and is labeled an Anti-Villain by the public, while seeing themselves as a Hero.
@@KageRyuu6 I would argue that method is the deciding factor between good and evil. Good seeks to actively prevent harm. Evil actively causes harm to get what they want, as they believe that the ends justify the means. An anti-villain is still evil, as his methods are the same as the villain's, he just just tends to be selfless instead of selfish. An anti-hero is more morally grey, but does the morally right thing in the end, even if they are conflicted and flirt with dubious methods.
sums up everything u need too know @AmazingHatOfDreams :D
What I've found works well with the anti-hero set up is having an other player or NPC in the game be someone the Anti-hero cares about. Like a family member or close friend. This charater can be someone more light hearted and caring than the anti-hero acting as a moral compass. It's one thing if some random paladin is telling you not to kill some bandits but it's different if the paladin is your brother or something. It also gives the charater a reason to stick with the group as well and can be used to push for charater growth.
I tried that with a Fey warlock drow. I thought it might work if I played and evil character that was forced into a good patronage and had a familiar that made him do good deeds and gave him to the DM. Unfortunately DM had plans to make the leash I gave him into a snarky a-hole that would taunt my character every given chance.
Definitely not the character arc I was hoping for.
@@SilentKar That's shitty. Sorry that happened to you. Speaking as a DM I would have asked you what you wanted out of the Patron in session 0 (or maybe even -1). Like this video shows, it's about creating that group story. If your plan is to have a morality tug of war between your character and your patron that's way more interesting (to me) than just having a patron egging you on.
foolycoolytheband me and my friend Dameon are playing brothers based on Johnathan Joestar and Dio, I was born a Nobel, and he has always been jealous of how I was treated growing up in the slums, and we started to fight, but our father was sick of it so he sent us to a war school to learn manners and get along, which is where the game is starting. We bonded over horse racing, and being stuck on the ship, and now we are inseparable in combat. I am a paladin and he’s a eldritch knight, but he keeps trying to pursue becoming a death knight when I am not paying attention because he knows I’d never approve of it, I agree this is a very cool idea, because he’s playing a character who is antagonist, and based on a villain, but because I am there to keep him in check the party finds him interesting and even a little tragic.
I don't recommend "the loner" quality in player characters. However, if you must.... you can keep that type of personality, but define another characteristic that causes you to extend your loner bubble to the party. Otherwise you will find yourself trying to go off by yourself, or not talking to the party. Your 'dark backstory' doesn't mean anything in a co-op game if you don't interact with the other players.
Random Examples
1) you are close friends with a party member, maybe a childhood friend that you completely trust. In an extreme case, maybe you only talk-to/answer them in group discussion (make it come across comical to the players, but like you're a jerk to the characters).
2) your last party died so you value the new party to such an extreme degree that you get in their business about minor things to make sure nothing is wrong. Maybe you don't talk much, but you get nervous when they eat because you are paranoid there is poison in their food. Sometimes you sweat, somethings you slap a fork out of their hands then awkwardly apology, and in combat you take attacks of opportunity so you can get to other enemies to help your allies far too often.
3) If you must be a loner to the degree that you go off on your own. Tell them where you are going. "There is a dragon inbound. I will kill it. Stay here, it's safe. " or "It's too dangerous to leave such a noble alive, Ill catch him in the alley " - this will give the characters a chance to stop you or help you, depending on the situation.
The main thing I'm trying to say here is: Interact with the party. Make up traits or quirks which will make regular, meaningful communication with the party unavoidable for your 'loner'. Make the reasons fun, make the reasons serious, or make the reason silly. Make a character the other players want you to play.
The best success I’ve had with an anti hero was directly inspired by the “outlaw” role in film or literature, depicted by characters like for instance Han Solo. The guy who shoots first when in a tense stare down across a potential enemy. “A better you than me” character who has his own reasons for joining the group or stumbles into the group and stays so they may aid him in the advancement of his own self interests. A smart ass renegade lone wolf who realizes team work has its benefits, builds a strong connection with his allies forming somewhat of a wolf pack and in so sees them as an extension of himself.
Phillip Olavarrieta Han is a good example as he doesn’t commit senseless actions and he actually only shoots first at a..holes. So while he doesn’t play nice, he does so with people that have earned it.
yeah a outlaw which made a slow transition out of the outlaw role
All valid points. I played a Anti-hero in a homebrew campaign who had a habit of influencing and learning the desires and goals of NPCs (similar to lucifer) and manipulating them into doing darker deeds for his own gain rather than the Adventuring party's.
The players and DM were all fine with it but the player characters, most of whom were more noble hearted, called him out on it but after some in-game discussion during downtime and my character agreed to a compromise. He could keep doing his manipulation tactics on NPCs but less dark deeds and if there is someone they immediately need to manipulate in a certain way first, he was to refrain from using his tactics on anyone except the target, unless it was to obtain information or assistance to deal with the target.
Surprising that was the smart choice as by the end of the campaign, my character had managed to acquire the info/aid needed to devastate the Villain (an Arch-devil) Ocean's 13 style, allowing him to get the final blow and earn the Archdevil's throne, allowing the rest of the party the credit and respect needed so no one less powerful than a demi-god would even dare attack them. We still joke about that session how the devil is more benevolent than the gods.
Awesome that you guys did this video today, I was just thinking about this quote the other day.
"The noir hero is a knight in blood caked armor. He's dirty and he does his best to deny the fact that he's a hero the whole time."
For a D&D anti-hero, look at Raistlin Majere in the first Dragonlance trilogy.
This is pretty good advice. I'm currently the anti hero in my group. I'm using the shadow sorcerer/rogue build you guys did awhile back. Made some tweaks. Plan to go thief for the rogue archetype. He just keeps to himself and steals. This video made me realize I should interact with the group more and maybe lighten up lol
Clint Eastwood's man with no name character from the Sergio Leon movies is a great example. I'm playing a ranger/hunter, rogue / assassin bounty killer based on him. Everyone just calls him Half Elf, or the half elf in the third party. Also, is Ted wearing a Robe of Stars? Lol
I recently played an Antagonist in my home brew campaign. Our group has 9 players in it which makes it incredibly hard to characterize any NPC. My DM and I decided that instead of having a BBEG for a little while my character would pit the players against each other for a while and have the campaign conflict be between players. This never came to any sort of PVP and everyone stayed more or less focused on the other tasks at hand but it was fun to have everybody in our huge party questioning each other's motives. A lot of great character development came out of it and eventually the campaign got back on track toward a BBEG. Really interesting experiment that I think worked really well
It almost sounds like you went through a team-building exercise... there might be some similarities to the "break them down, build them up, then induct-them-into-the-organization" (which is also generally how the military turns recruits into useful military personnel), to what you describe, i would imagine, if we were to hear some more of the details.
I never do the "lone wolf", but I do tend towards the darker characters.
I see it as a start of a "change of heart" arc, start as a little a-hole and grow to not be the a-hole. (Preferably see results by session 2 or 3)
At least by session 2 or 3 your character shoudl be starting to develop a fondness for a few of the other characters in the party.
I been watching you guys for a while... I just subscribed... THIS VIDEO WAS AWSOME!!! :D Thats my word! I have an anti hero. I'v been with my party for years. He is made more disturbing to the party as he is a Chaotic Neutral dangerously intellegent psion/soul knife in a 3.5 game. The saving grace for him is that his inner turmoil is checked by his OCD need for order/and efficiancy in his own mind, which is fragmented in and of itself... He adventures with the heros as he believes they can stop the atagonists evil plans for the world that makes them neccecery, and useful to him... While he cares little for the world itself, prefering self perfection (And the distruction of any mindflayers anyware they may be) He understands that the BBG's plans could ruin his own macinations (no world, no self improvment) so he runs with the party from time to time. So as to make sure they achieve their goals I should mention he is a lower level than the party but no less powerful... Infact the GM likes him so much... He gets solo quests with just me and her for personal development, and the fact that he is a lower level than most of the party... I came late to the campaign. I had some personal RL issues also and could not be at games for weeks on end... My GM (who is well known in the Dnd community and an Awesome DM) in all her benevolence saw fit that we would back track for my solos where was my PC during these times and such questions like that were answered sometime my quests tie into the story at large which i must say she's an incredable semstress in these moments... We ran out of time skips backwards I miss those solos and I believe she does too... So yea im a sub now thanks for pushing the 5e I was not considering it before I watched all these wonderful videos you have...
I like to play anti-heroes with very strict codes. I had one guy who was a charlatan through and through, he would use the fine print in contracts to steal all sorts of things from people. He loved to get out on technicalities and trickery, but he would never actually break rules directly or lie. If he said directly that he wouldn’t do something, he wouldn’t do it. It was an interesting control on an otherwise chaotic character.
Thanks guys :) had a campaign almost ruined by a edgy anti hero character (a fighter with Tavern Brawler) where the player was totally unaware that using grapple/grab/shove against the weaker races/female PCs sounded a hell of a lot like he was physically abusing them each time they disagreed with him. It went on for a few weeks till it got so bad that after two sessions that the character knowingly forced mine into a situation where they almost permadied that i raised it to the DM .. sucked but it got fixed and eventually the character was seen by the party to be a bad guy for his actions (mind you bragging about killing children didn't help) . For me I give my evil characters a reason to be with the party..(money is a powerful motivator) and will out of character apologize and explain if a situation occurs where the character goes against the party - eg last session my Seasonal Eladrin warned the party to get out of a room with the big badguys cause she had a plan. Most of the party followed the instruction (the ones who knew what she was like) but two new characters didn't. even with ooc prompting that she was about to drop a big spell next turn they both refused to move out of the way. Normally I'd have held a action to let them escape...but she was under a curse that made her fantically follow her current quest which pushed her season from winter towards summer with the flaw of 'do anything to survive' to 'too impatient to suffer fools'... So she did the maths and dropped a 8th level sunburst on the room knowing the bad guys were undead and had shown weakness to radiant damage. one player was a tank with plenty of hit points and the other was a one-off character played by someone I knew well. both had been poisoned already and had disadvantage but the DC was only 13. Since the baddies where undead it cleared the room of 20 zombies that had just arrived along with 50points damage each to the two big baddies making the fight end 2 rounds later. The characters in the room survived but one was blinded and the other dropped to 2 points off permadeath. Felt terrible to do it ... Generally I try to balance antisocial behaviour and find chaotic good the worse for hurting their teammates
Every once in a while I played a jerk character that was nothing but a problem. Always trying to take the group over political or as a bully. First few time it really took everyone by surprise and it was a shock, cause they didn't know I could act that way. I was always taking notes on the matter.
A month later, that character of my was the NPC villain the PC group was going against.
Writing or playing a good villain must have a few flaws that other can make fun of to throw their egos off in combat.
The Snowflake Murder Hobo you was playing with is a " jerk."
@@krispalermo8133 oh yeah after I spoke to the DM the two of them ended up agreeing that his character was a jerk. I had to explain the stress for me was double because I had to keep finding excuses for my character to stick around after the abuse ...ended up she left the party for a session due to being ahead of everyone plotwise, I swapped to a backup character and we caught up with her later. That said I did eventually get my revenge... another character from him changed sides to join the big bad.... Felt very nice to deflect 1000 points of damage right into his face. After that he learned a very valuable lesson.... Don't try to fight a drunken master monk if they're close to you. And definately don't let your ally try it if they are within 5 feet... But generally he's alright as a person and I'm probably more scary then he is in person. :)
@@ether4211 back up character are cool. My game shops insist on having back up characters cause of "down time," for level skill training and crafting magic items.
In a way the PC become the local NPC village people and local history.
" Met the magic black smith dwarf, who was your PC from 6months ago."
New player in the group," hey I'm going to pick a fight with the tavern's drunk."
Hahaha yeah I have a pile of one shot and backup characters that are just silly or would get dull on a longer campaign. In this case it was a half orc mark of finding horizon walker Ranger who was a franchisee of Aquisitions Incorporated Sigil on a corporate retreat.. her favoured enemy was paperwork and she didn't much care what the party was up to as to her it was just a holiday and if she can profit...well that's a bonus. She wasn't so much evil as valuing each thing and the party as a whole and putting a dollar value against it for her contacts back in the office... If it meant selling a powerful item to a big bad that was fine as long as they paid on time.
@@ether4211 Selling a powerful item to a big bad for a big $ !
My gaming groups run LARP: VtM and "Planescape" Blood Wars. It got to the point I could no long play a wizard pass 10th-level. Or get any wands/ rod of Flesh to Stone cause I turn too many npc and a few PCs into Soul Stones and traded they off to the Lower Planes.
Over all, I am such a "Rule Lawyer," I get stuck as a back up DM to help to move the plot of the game a long.
I had a dragon character named Tereshia. She was a "dragon" third party. Much smaller and earned their dragon abilities via feats and basic leveling and still contained the dragon type without the many benefits it included. She was a widow who had lost her entire family and came from the tribes to the north. While the rest of the world advanced her people stayed stagnant. Her quest for leaving home was to hunt down a draconnid who had attacked her village and killed her family. Tere was a very abrasive character with little care for the collateral around he, but that is not without her common sense. One of the things I set in stone was that she knew when and where to let loose. For example, you don't execute a thief in the middle of town. You just break a bone or something. The party eventually shifted her from that abrasive, aggressive character into a more passive pre thinking battle master, but she still kept her personality and every now and then let out her inner beast.
Yeah, that's more like the standard story-plot, Richard B. Riddick style anti-hero, (or even Han Solo / Lando Calrissian or, for numerous other examples, see the many other Rebel Alliance members with "checkered backgrounds")... and that's probably the best kind to play unless you have carefully created that "social contract" between all players before the game, which states you can be exactly X, Y, and/or Z level(s) of hardcore/dark without going too far."
This was fun, I would like to see more videos on the player types. Maybe next you could do the Rules Lawyer or Edgelord when you do another video like this.
I am a Rule Lawyer, I seek to game the system and abuse the Spirit & Letter of the Rule/ written word.
I am also the shop's back up DM, and I get stuck with trying to keep new players' character alive through low level games.
@@krispalermo8133 Puffin Forest actually did a video on Rules Lawyers a while back, in the video, he states that he breaks Rules Lawyers into two subgroups: "Rules Traditionalists" and "Rules Hagglers" and describes the distinction between the two. It sounds like you're more along the lines of a Rules Traditionalist, I recommend checking out the video if you already haven't.
@dracone Got a link there? I’ve been trying to find it for a while and can’t find it.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Not at the moment, I've been trying to go back over his videos to find it but I can't remember the title of the video, sent him a message over twitter about it but I haven't gotten a response back, and searching through my RUclips history is taking longer than I would like
@@Lobsterwithinternet okay, I just found a post from August on twitter where he mentions taking "it down a while ago" because of not being happy about how it turned out, but he did mention an interest in maybe redoing the video at some point
Great points i would also suggest dark humour is a good balance between the full act and the hint you might do the full act.
Some of the moments i have enjoyed most in rpg's have been the they wouldn't do that...would they moments and leaving the question unanswered still speaks volumes about how non heroic you might be while not actually following though to the level that would cause discomfort.
An earlier video i recall from your channel also raised a very good point which was about ways to make your pc feel different making sure there is a clear line in the sand between the pc you are playing and you
This really helps at the table as well, you still need to respect your group but i often found you get more satisfaction and milage from smaller pushes than going right to the extreme
Would defiantly love to see more videos like this one exploring other types of ways to play and how to make them a better experince for erveryone
My favorite antihero I've ever played, started out as a rogue who had been part of a monster hunters guild. She wasn't evil, but she was a little chaotic. At one point we were fighting a home rude monster, something between a demon and a horror. And I ended up getting hit by something that gave me a major mental breakdown. The DM rolled on a table, and my compulsion was that I believed I was in a game. However, my character at level two had a plus nine perception. I had taken observant, I double proficiency in perception, I had a very high wisdom. So we played it more like I was basically Deadpool. I knew we were in a game and my goal was to break the game. However, I understood that the other characters didn't understand this. So my goal was to enlighten but I had to do with cautiously. I would randomly mutter I hope I don't roll a natural one. I would do inside checks on actual people, not just on PCs and NPCs. and I would hum whatever music was playing during the session. It ended up resulting in great fun, because my character wasn't actually a bad guy, she just understood that everything was a lie, and her goal had nothing to do with doing anything other than escaping this game she was in.
I played a halfling rogue in a tomb of annihilation game recently. Secretly she was working for the zhentirim thives guild. Prob spelled that wrong.... but point is her backstory was her past led her to decisions that put her on the wrong side of the law. Her mission was to infiltrate this band of adventurers and find out what has been happening to other guild members. Time and time again they ran into groups of them and she had to put the mission ahead first and work with the group. When given the chance she would try to help the other guild members. Eventually it became that she wanted to leave her mission behind but before she could open up to other members of the original group she went in with. She had met her own demise. Ironic twist to her demise a new necromancer was with the group and brought her back to serve as his personal assistant/backpack.
My brother is playing an antihero in our current campaign and its caused a lot of friction in the party. He stole a magic item from me and that caused a PvP in the middle of a city. Blasted him with a crit hit dissonant whispers and then we were kicked out of the city. Although our DM has played with it very well and forced players to make compromises when necessary (in game, creatively) to make sure no one is going to far and everyone is still enjoying the game. 👍 very important topic and I enjoyed the video. More players should watch this.
For a more literary bend to represent an anti-hero from Classical litterature : Odysseus. A few examples:
- He joins the Trojan War reluctantly, for a prophecy told him that he would be away from home for a VERY long time if he joined the endeavor. Feigning madness, his ruse is discovered by Palamedes. Odysseus starts to harbor some serious "beef" towards him and leads to Palamedes' downfall (and subsequent death).
- He uses his keen mind, great intelligence and his superior eloquence and rhetoric to get the outcome HE wants, not necessary what the others want, although most of his schemes does help the Greeks before the Walls of Troy.
- During his ten-year voyage home he does "heroic" deeds, yes en true, but not because it is the "right" thing to do. He does this with only one thing in his mind: to get home. On several occasions he does things that are not morally just, but still necessary if he wants to succeed.
It can be argued that could be more of a "reluctant hero" instead of a anti-hero, but Odysseus DOES is -at the very least- the antithesis for some of the others protagonists (especially in the Illiad) that have a clearly more heroic bend (Achilles, Ajax, etc.)
Thanks for this video. I play a lot of character on the chaotic end of things. Often they have rather tragic backstories that lead to revenge, bringing down evil at a bit of a cost to others, or bending the law in ways that often lead to collateral damage but with a logical reason behind it. Often I end up with the label of anti hero or chaotic loose cannon. I never have the intention to derail a game but I know the information you have offered in the video will help with avoiding dms getting miffed. Nearly had one character jailed cause I seriously maimed a beggar that was obstructing a necromancer, myself (hexblade warlock) and a cat chasing down a murder suspect. In all fairness and my logic behind the beggar maiming he was 1) blocking us chasing a murder suspect, 2) fleeing a scene, and 3) as previously established in that session we brought visitors into that city and a stipulation was they must be housed and have a job which clearly this beggar in the street had neither per the world building the dm did. As mean as my warlock is I felt the eldritch blast at point blank range was justified given the situation. After all my priority was the jail the murder suspect and avoid more murders per the objectives of the night of gaming.
I played an anti hero for my first ever DnD game but it was closer to a prankster that got in a bit of trouble every now and then, nothing too serious or dark, it resulted in a lot of funny scenes and the party had fun going along with the mischief. My character started off as a “loner” a guess but over time grew to respect the other party members and become friends, sometimes she went a bit far in fights and one time nearly joined the villain (that was fun) but because of the relationship she grew with the other members she “betrayed” the villain for her friends. The other party members were my friends outside DnD so i knew when to be serious if it was getting annoying, i think its important to know your friends and what they’re ok with if you want to play an anti hero/mischief character.
I'm DMing a game and my girlfriend is playing a Vengeance Paladin. There's a shady Sorcerer in the group (character not player) who pickpockets and such from growing up needing to. This video couldn't have been put out a better time for me :)
Thanks!
I enjoy the videos and topics discussed by you guys, but I think when you guys are more talking to each other about past games rather than the camera is my favorite part
One point that wasn't really touched upon or if it was, just slightly in the social contract part: It's important that the other players also allow some leway into playing the Anti-hero. IE: If your group has the heroic "stupid" paladin. While jerks can/do play anti-heroes they also can play super "good" characters and as such may make a mountain out of a mole-hill. "What do you mean you stole the bag...!!!???" So while there is consideration on how to play the anti-hero for the player, the players with the anti-hero need some consideration also.
A few times I played the Heroic "stupid" paladin, it was Pc Vs Pc against a rogue/bard.
The house joke was," paladin has Detect Evil, Not Detect Lie !"
One time it was I played a cleric with the 3.5e rules with an Wis:10, Int:7 Cha:14
Multi-class: cleric3rd/fighter4th/sorcerer3rd CR: 10; BAB:+7
It was a spirit of Tricks that gave him "cleric" spells, & he though his sorcerer spells were cleric spells.
We Monty Pyphon Lampoon it as far as we could.
" In all of the Forgotten Realms, Fizban is my guiding light !"
In the End he was kill by the Drow godess Lolth through a succubi kiss.
This was after fighting a hoard of goblins Polymorph into killer rabbits.
I'd say a good example of how to play an "Anti-Hero" as you guys described it would be Arkhan the Cruel during episodes 113 & 114 of Critical Role's first campaign, though in his case he was a "Guest" PC. He was an overtly Evil character (Oathbreaker Paladin/Barbarian multiclass) working with a party of primarily Good or Good-leaning characters, but they had no major issues because they shared a common goal and enemy in Vecna. And while Arkhan did freely display his Evil alignment (he was very open to Vox Machina about being a servant of Tiamat), it was kept to a degree where things didn't get too graphic.
Another way I could see an Anti-Hero working as part of a group would be if they were someone who would be willing to execute an incapacitated enemy if there was a legitimate risk of them becoming a threat again later on if they escaped capture/imprisonment, the "Anti-Hero" might execute them on the spot to prevent them from being able to endanger the party or any other innocents....even if one of more PCs disagreed with the action, it could create some in-character tension, but something like that probably wouldn't bother other players much, if at all, as long as the execution wasn't excessively graphic. The Anti-Hero could be motivated by a desire to protect others (either innocents or their fellow party members) so knowing the reason for the Anti-Hero's actions could lead to the party being more "forgiving" (in character) since the Anti-Hero could have had genuinely good intentions/goals, he/she simply goes to an extreme for the sake of those intentions/goals.
I think the biggest way to do this and make it work is really have your character care about the other PC's, he seems them as tools or he actually cares about them and does his bad deeds to other NPC's and he does it to help them.
Reincarnation of a Rakshasa trying to regain his power, was super agreeable with the insects he was working with, because nothing really mattered except gaining enough power, and surviving long enough, to become his old self again.
When the first character you play who will eagerly give up loot happens to be NE.
I have a antihero character that is a necromancer that has complex morals such as if they become a lich they will take the souls of animals but if they need to they will take the souls of people they don't raise the dead with out permission unless they are challenged to a magic dual and there challenger died also they have a mind flayer as their best friend
I think in a D&D sense, just think of "antihero" as chaotic good: the character who wants to do right, just by his own methods. Robin Hood is a classic example. Looking at contemporary TV, I'd say that antiheroes are more like the cast of "Leverage". Something like "The Punisher" is more edgelord to me.
Anti hero, well my gaming groups are heavy on Roll Playing & Larp.
If you are skilled enough you can play up to 12 players/ npc, henchmen.
Basic two " story tellers/ DMs" in one group.
A egoist Noble with his house guards on adventure with a group of " hire swords/ PC " to take care of an orc problem.
It was such a fun game I cause a split within the group of characters. The new players were in shock. And wanted to know why this game shop is cool with this type of game play.
Reason: this Noble will be the villain for then next few games over a couple of months.
Now your characters have a personal reason to take him down.
" We stole his horse, Polymorph a goat and put the horse gear on it. The Noble complain his horse was giving him problems and started bucking. After he got back on his ' horse' and it tired itself out running around in uncontrolled circles and just stood there. With a very piss off Noble, the 'horse' turn back into a Goat !"
When I make an antihero, I make a personal code for the character. I think it's the best way to play an antihero in a fair and social way. First in a forward way you should bring that code to the DM they can look it over and whithout ruining the mystique of your character ask other players if they're ok with any potential issues in your code. That way if something needs to be tuned out it can be done before a session 0. Having a code, and sharing even the tiny bits of it everytime you do something extreme can help other characters understand you're not a psychopathic murderhobo, and eventually shed light on who your character is and what drives them. I also find it easiest to root for the antihero with a code.
Personally I just made mine more anime and it worked out pretty well. I took the Faceless Background, Halfling Barbarian. The story was that my village was burned by bugbears and my parents killed. During the attack I fled into the woods and went a little crazy.
Jump to the present, I'm a quiet and twitchy halfling kid that most of the party feels sorry for. They probably even coddle me a bit too much. But every now and again I'll rage and don this bugbear pelt and become another person.
Other me is a little vicious, he's cunning, and made of sterner stuff than perhaps anyone else. He'll do things that no one else maybe wants to do. After all, other me got his revenge and he remembers, his parents screams, people he knew all of his life crying in the ashes of their homes. When he's here the rest of the party isn't sure what's going on, or maybe they aren't fans, but he's only here for a bit and suddenly the kid is back and he's hurt and worried.
I was kind of the party hulk. But I tried to also make him kind of innocent and naive, he wasn't malevolent so much as he had very few morals and context for why a thing might or might not be immoral. The Cleric was my friend, both versions, Rage me would get lectures about why a thing was or wasn't okay when I asked, while normal basically had lots of tea and conversation and doting. I think the party enjoyed the weird dichotomy.
As for the thief, there was a definite use for him in dungeon crawls. Maybe not as much in urban settings, but he was the one who could detect and disarm traps, find secret doors, and do that sort of thing. However, aren't most adventurers kind of hack and slash? There aren't too many that fight to subdue, or drive off.
If you attack me in the street, and I attempt to grapple with you, break your arm or leg, prevent further attack, that is a lot different than reacting by sticking a knife in you or shooting you with a gun. But that's how most PCs seem to respond, even without waiting to see if an attack is imminent, or if the creature is just out minding its own business.
When you mentioned "Performing actions & deeds that directly conflict with the rest of the party" I immediately thought of 2 Characters from Ted's Gnar-Kee-Tis Campaign. The first is Ryan's Linden Character, and he showed the greatest on-the-spot decision making as he brought up the valid point as it related to Linden being tasked with having to acquire a specific item from a Party, however because he & Mark's character "Tarius" don't necessarily trust each other because Tarius brother "Varius" (Mark's original character) had died Linden couldn't invite the others & not Tarius without raising more suspicions while at the same time Linden had to attend the party to acquire the item, but he couldn't do that while Tarius was watching him closely. Ryan/Linden decided to invite the whole party but feign ill to be able to attend in disguise. This also created the 1st of many moments of "What if" in that, how the Party would've gone had Mark remembered to have done Action Surge, 2nd Wind & if the Dice Gods were kind, thus stayed alive. Granted, a ton of horses might've still been living had Varius not died.
The 2nd would be Scott's Acen, and the downhill, spiral, out-of-control chaos he caused that all started because the Uncle of Dave's Character, Unthen-Gar, chuckled at Acen's "10 year apprenticeship", because Unthen-Gar & his uncle are DWARVES whom live to be 350+ years old, and they're still considered young until they reach the age of 50, so an Apprenticeship for a Dwarf is a lot, LOT, longer then 10 years. Still, one can only imagine what would've happened had Acen told the Elves that he's been apprenticing for 10 years. Acen's out-of-control behavior, despite pretty much everyone telling Scott/Acen that he's blowing things WAY out of proportion, nearly cause the party to split, almost cost him his own life [on several occasions], an Apprentice, and Apprenticeship [to Unthen-Gar's uncle], as well as both eyes (one to combat & the other to his own........... I don't know).
One of my players has an anti-hero PC. I guess it was by accident. He's a murder-hobo barbarian who wants to fit in with the cool guys. They use him but not really accept him. It's a really funny relationship and it just works somehow.
That's kind of the standard D&D group i would think; there's always at least one guy who comes to do the kick-in-doors-kill-everything-loot-everything-style-game. Why? It depends on the person of course, but in general? maybe because they want to play something simple/fun/different or they are new to the game, or just aren't interested in much else (read as; they are a male human under age 30 LOL), or they spend much of their days in cerebral pursuits like office work or school study and enjoy somewhat cerebral entertainment that also allows a bit of nice, [pre-]frontal-cortex-relaxing amygdala-on-switch, smashy, smash-fun. ;D
Elric of Melnibone is best anti-hero example.
Darth Joel or Han Solo.
I'm having a Session Zero for my first actual campaign as a DM on Friday, and everything that concerns group dynamic and, like you said, social contracts, is gold to me. I believe if we all can agree on the terms, it's gonna be a helluva good time.
I'm playing an anti-hero Artificer, well actually he is full on CE, but we balance him out by having one of the other players play a research partner who serves to hold Dr. Zell accountable and let him know when he is going too far. A lot of this will manifest in playful banter between the two, usually resulting in a reference back to an incident that we kind of make up on the spot. The other character is NG and knows that despite Dr. Zell's lack of ethics his research and medical knowledge does do good, he just has to mitigate the collateral damages.
3rd/3.5 ed, live in person game, I played a Bratty Noble's kid Who went into being a rogue (eventually I believe I went with a Temple Raider or Olidamarra? Something Thief/caster) And she was very strike out on her own. She often spoke down to our dwarf fighter and human Wizard, kept things from them, and 'solved problems' on her own.
She never stole from the party or nothing, but she stole -for- the party, and made sure issues never extended too far into the future with troublesome NPCs, as it were *cough*
I never ever let it become a serious contention, but I did often let it cause interpersonal issues (but never the serious) and It was a good Roleplaying situation for her to grow and learn and become a better person.
I always made sure things were within everyones boundaries, cuz its never good when you make someone comfortable you have to game with for the foreseeable future. (especially since that game went for ...3-4 years?)
This is also really good advice for playing an evil character! You can still have that tension between goals and such. Just like backstories, you are a fledgling adventurer in the beginning. You don't have a history of amazing deeds. Starting out it's fine to be an anti hero or evil, but you have to have a reason that you're adventuring with a bunch of goodie goodies
I can be evil be being a lizardfolk healer, with their lack of intelligence they would be thinking “unconscious, dead, same difference.” So you will also be a problem for the team at the same time as being a neutral character, it can be fun for everyone because if you say ‘that was a piece of cake’ the Lizardfolk will suddenly decide to go off and look for the nonexistent piece of cake.
I'm playing an antihero currently, in fact. Heinrich the Erased is his name. One thing our group has taken to doing is having a sort of "gloves come off" moment baked in for this guy to pull out all the stops when the situation can't be solved by more agreeable means. I've given him a couple of clear tells when he gets to that point, and always leave the option for the other party membersto talk him down. It's always somewhat begrudgingly that he does back down in those times, and the other players for their part let their characters express their gratitude when he does exercise restraint. Any time he's critical of something, or gets to being paranoid or distrustful, I always make a point to emphasis that this criticism and suspiscion come from a place of concern, usually borne of experience. The guy was a nobleman, who had his title stripped and his estate usurped, he's been dodging threats since he was fairly young, and was wrapped up in a lot of political intruigue and conspiracy. He has to remind himself, and the party has to remind him, that not everyone is out to get him. It's made for some very genuine roleplaying moments where he's gone from seeing the group as a means to get away from his old life, and started viewing them as very real friends and allies, and in our most recent session, no one at the table seemed surprised or even batted and eye when he shot an NPC who threatened one of the party member's life if the group didn't fork over their valuables. The NPC in question survived and our resident "good guy" had him hauled off by the authorities. When my character was questioned, the character who had been threatened wasted no time defending him, and the other party members pitched in. After that encounter, we talked out of character for a while, comparing the scene to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, of all things. We all agreed it was a drastic action, but bullets beat blades definitely would have been the only call Heinrich would have made. Play continues.
I'm in the middle of a character creation spree (24) and my Avenging Angel automatically comes to mind (Scourge Aasimar, Vengeance Paladin). While I like the potential, this is one character that pretty much wrote himself to be a self-righteous a-hole and I do not have the Role Playing experience to pull it off without becoming one myself.
To offset this, my next character creation was a Firbolg Circle of Spores Druid named Mr. Krinkle.
Anti-Heroes are great for players who cant show up regularly.there is one in my group that can show up once a month or 6 weeks with the rest of everyone else. we have a session just for her when she does not have to work when I am off too. when she shows up for a session it is as a lead for her mission. the other players like it having extra muscle and how dark she can get.
Last game shop I played at eight years ago, use to take my Lone Wolf Edge Lords and use them as npc to help out newbie player groups.
As a mental exercises , I did up 32 edge lords and ran them as a chess game.
One edge lord, " the dark silent type," has a high pitch voice and never shuts up once starts talking. Always thinking about odd things no one wants to bother with. So he just grunts and nods his head alot.
My drow ranger/rogue is definitely an anti hero. He’s vicious and selfish, but also charming and most importantly, he’s a pragmatist, meaning he’ll cooperate with others if it’s in his best interest and saving the world definitely falls into that category. My friends and agreed in advance this particular party isn’t going to be the goody-goody guys, so it can work; such a character really can’t be played with a group that is more firm about their principles of law of good. I also find that it helps if your character background can explain why your PC is the way they are, rather than just be an asshole for the sake of it, it helps people understand and be more tolerant for some bad behavior, though don’t push it TOO far and make sure you aren’t turning into an actual villain.
Lastly, you gotta consider a character arch, some development to this character to perhaps change over time, maybe soften up a little. I think the PC’s in my group eventually learned to love my drow and see him as a friend, though you’ll have to ask them for a definite answer :P
I usually play 'knight in shining armor' or the 'anti hero'. Also known as muttering grump that helps the others but is along for the ride for other reasons and really isn't big on all the prophecy nonsense etc. When played well players can grow quite fond of the anti-hero. As if he's not a psycho he can cause some fun interactions. I like them to be the semi ally. Same purpose, other faction. Or he's a professional bounty hunter not caring about the high ground. Easily can grow into being a solid ally, mentor figure etc. Also a smart anti-hero / anti-villain etc will want to stay on the good side of his team, support them, use them... even save them but always for the higher purpose. (until sloooooowly he might for instance change, have an arc etc) Heck the same goes for a good villain. You can perfectly go through a campaign with a well rped villain that at almost no point conflicts with the heroes. Yet will end up being very morally flexible and use that aspect at the right moment.
I am pretty late to the party on this, but I'm am actually playing a short of anti- hero presently.
My character is a rogue/assassin who is actively accepting contracts from NPCs. The party hasn't figured it out yet thanks to my character being a changeling. But I put a pleasant twist on the dark and broody assassin by not making him outwardly dark and broody all the time. He is actually pretty friendly and out going moody of the time because it serves him better than being the obviously dangerous one.
By being as friendly and outgoing as her is no one suspects that he has already knocked off more than 1 npc. His outward personality doesn't peg him as an anti hero, but his actions certainly do.
And with the DMs scheming, the is also a chance for me to become a villain in the.
I want to play the character who was a former Roman soldier. He was a man's man, and an honorable character for the most part, but he is also pretty a moral in his activities. Well he followed the law, he also followed the law of the battlefield and that included his belief that to the Victor go The Spoils of War.
At the end of any Conquest he believed that the enemies loot, they're women, and their wine we're all his and the parties at the end of a fight. And, of course, for some of the female players he would also take some of the men for them. His alignment was lawful neutral. As a real person, that is not who I am at the slightest no, but, I thought that playing a Roman soldier with all of the ports of a service member including the rough humor, the bonding after cleaning a training or a fight and otherwise just maintaining order within the ranks of the troops when sometimes you didn't want to maintain order was just simply a fun character to play all around. Of course, the more non-military standpipe characters didn't appreciate him, but he also try to acquiesce to their likes and dislikes. Otherwise oh, he was kind of an animal when he wasn't within the confines of the rank-and-file
I've said it before but the way I can see an anti hero being played is if the anti hero is a sociopath but is fanatically devoted to their family, one of whom happens to be a party member. The sociopath will *want* to mutilate the surrendering orcs by cutting off their hands but because he doesn't want to anger their brother/sister/cousin/lover/other they won't because said family member wants to spare them.
Party is aloud to interrogate the prisoner
Me the assassin rogue: Can I torture him?
Guard: no blood hits that table
Me breaks his fingers 1 by 1 while interrogating the bound prisoner
'Guard: "no blood hits that table."'
me: Okay *writes some stuff down, then hands it to the guard* I'll need these
List includes:
Medium/Large Tub
Assortment of blades
Hammers
Pliers
Hard Stick
Heavy red fabric of several feet [plastic doesn't exist yet]
@@Altyrell table cloth?
@@kishinasura1989 Could work, mainly thinking of stuff that would predate plastic to contain blood splatter, on the off chance blood were to fall but to keep it "off the table" ;)
@@Altyrell Lenin cloth
@@kishinasura1989 Either way, it would make for some interesting RP between the Rogue Player and the DM Guard, especially if the prisoner were to be bleeding more then the Guard expected/wanted, with the Rogue pointing out that "not a single blood had hit that *points at the table* table" having the entire thing be contingent on the literal statement/meaning behind the guard's statement of "no blood hits that table".
The best working anti heroes in my experience have been those that have a high level of commitment to at least 1 other character in the party.
Be it romantic love, familial love or recognition that they need this person or group of people to achieve their own goals, and need them to be willing to help.
Thanks, great insight as always!
Oh nice. You just gave me a new npc for the games I run and a strong whip using pc... oh that half giant is going to be fun
Antihero characters are my bread and butter. It brings me absolute delight to play oddball, mismatched characters that still get along with the party at the end of the day. My general strategy is to roll an evil character, change their alignment to neutral for legal reasons, then play them in a way that does not disrupt the party or gross out the players -too- much.
Examples include:
Necromancer who acted like a bard, treating his horribly painful spells (and the combat party buffs) as ways of enhancing the delightfully bloody 'performance' of battle. Dreams of one day being smited by a paladin.
Alchemist who was addicted to body modification, and often ventured with the good guys for free monster parts to implant into her body. Requires disguise to go out in public.
Summoner with a Devil companion who acts as the evil outsider's parole officer. Harbors no mercy for criminals, even ones who are just the byproduct of a corrupted system, but has a big soft spot for animals.
I normally start my characters off as Neutral and have them drift into evil alignment.
Your devil parole officer, that is just funny. That is close to the Night Hag clean out dungeons of Neutral Evil npc.
My character is the antihero in our campaign. But his twin sister (played by my wife) is his tie to the group. So he goes along with her wishes most of the time but does his own thing when he can get away with it
I think one of my favorite characters I've played started as a sort of anti hero. Though, more of a Han Solo-esque one. Sort of a "I'm not gonna go out of my way to be a dick or screw people over, but I'm not in this for the greater good." Sort of became a counterpoint to our druid when the druid tried to bust open a bunch of sarcophagi to "cleanse the tomb of undeath," and my character (a Swashbuckler of all things) got a lucky roll and was the only one in the party who knew anything about mummies (sailor ghost stories from old veteran traders) and drew his blades to stop it cuz we were fucked if we tried to take on even 1 mummy. Sort of a "I like you, but I'd rather one dead druid on my conscience than all of us dead in a fucking hole," moment.
Honestly, the player has said numerous times that the standoff that ensued was one of his favorite bits of roleplay hes ever done. It was great. It's not hard to play the anti-hero. Just remember. You're still one of the heroes. Just not a hero about it.
Why can't the paladin have a growth arc to stop being so uptight? Why is the owness always on the evil characters to change?
Because he's evil. And evil is less socially acceptable. Though the onus should be on the Paladin to not take things into active violence. If anything they could do what I do and be a "I'm not mad, just disappointed" Paladin. Guilt can be a way better tool than causing actual damage to a party member.
I play several anit-hero’s and one Villain in Adventures League.....key is to know the other characters...this is more so with my Drow Necromancer who is a very evil villain. For example my Drow Necromancer character takes mental notes of who the more heroic characters are especially clerics and paladins.....this is where my characters talks to them and some times debates them on summoning demons and creating undead that will serve the party in the next leg of the adventure....it creates nice RP and maybe a little party conflict, but he learns how far he can go so to not cause party disfunction...my other two anti-hero’s are much more easier to work with the party even though one is a human high priest of Bane and the other a drow Assassin/bounty hunter who was a slave catcher for hire in Menzoberranzan.
Menzoberranzan, great city for adventure. The two week party to celebrate the city's founding. An avatar of Lolth is known for visiting . In AD&D2e Lolth is known to give out succubi kiss to PCs.
My game shop eight years ago ran with 3.5e rules.
We treated Menzoberranzan as an adventure site for characters level 10th to 30th.
Gambling sport," kobold vs halfling/ drow child."
a.) see how long the kobold lives as it gets strangle with a spider silk cord by a "8 year old" drow child.
b.) Wizard cast " Planar Binding" summons a 13HD outsider for an arena fight.
Average teenage drow male or female is fighter1/rogue2nd/wizard3rd ; +6CR; +3BAB
Feats,: create wondrous item, improve initiative .
Adult ranking females: fighter2nd/rogue3rd/wizard3rd/ cleric6th/loremaster6th;+20CR; +12BAB
16th-level cleric spell caster.
kris palermo yeah my other Drow Necromancer is also from Menzoberranzan since he is a Xorlarrin and cousin of Matron Mother Zeerith the 5th House in drow rank of the noble houses.
@@adamholcomb1906 back in my early 20's and 3e hadn't came out yet. I ran an AD&D2e game where everyone had to play lawful evil, they were Nobles, and had lands and castle to ran. At first they hated it. The Murder Hobos real did.
Plot: six noble house are trying to take over The Town. At the end of four months the game shop went and played "Menzob" for the next six months.
You are dealing with people that play WOD:VtM. most Vampire LARP come off as Ne&CE Sabbat members any how. Who are also Drow Fanboys.
One idea for players of anti-heroes who would gravitate towards being loners is to work with the DM to establish why they can’t go it alone. Perhaps working together on a “cut scene” similar to the starting cutscene of Red Dead Redemption- where the protagonist gets gunned down and nearly dies trying to accomplish his goal by himself or herself; then gets saved and nursed back to health by one of the other PCs. this establishes that the anti-hero has learned that they can’t accomplish their goals alone, and gets a hard lesson in the importance of having backup.
Yeah, [or like the plot of the Riddick stories] good idea.
My current character is definitely the A-hole in the party only because they have been hitting small triggers on accident that are in his backstory. Before it just seemed like he was a control freak but in our recent session he threw a book at the pixie druid because she threw water at him that revealed some stuff. Minor to them but only because they have no context on why its super important.
A good session 0 is sooo important
Is it possible to polymorph your find familiar into something outside of the familiar giudelines
I have played two anti hero characters before. Hust horrible people. The first was the classic assassin rogue who played by his own rules and did his own thing. That lasted a good two/three sessions, mainly because he had just never worked with others before. Being an adventurer and a team player was a new thing to him, and he had to, in character, learn that. He almost died once or twice before he learned it, but it was character development.
The second was a trickster cleric who tried to, at first, get people to pay her for healing. Just a rotten spoiled brat of a noble who adventured to get rich quick. She learned her lesson after just one session once everyone was ignoring her attempts at extortion and the party got into a pinch that required her healing or she would be dead along with everyone else. She still to this day acts like a rotten spoiled brat, but she knows how to cooperate now.
I like having these sorts of characters learn their lessons quick. It makes for an interesting person in the party that's still a team player, even if begrudgingly like the latter character, and yet still be someone who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty.
My warforged artificer would take bounties during the party's downtime. My character would've preferred to take his marks in alive, but the DM was offering more gold for heads, not bodies.
Okay, I've started an campaign, and my character (a variant human wizard) got shot by an enemy combatant, and was down to one HP, and she was so focused on him dead, that she egged her teammates on, and when the plasmoid rogue killed him, she failed a Perception check, and I flavored it as her being too busy taunting the corpse to focus on anything else. And at the end of the session, the pacifistic dragonborn druid (who she called a yellow-bellied dragonborn, in reference to his cowardice and pacifism) was traumatized over using his powers to help kill people, so she patted him on the shoulder and told him he will get used to it.
Yeah, she's an antihero. Her backstory? She was raised as a member of a bandit tribe, and when her brother accidentally killed the chieftain's son, she and her brother were banished, and she's trying to get back into the good graces of the tribe after being forced to pay for her brother's mistake. Her name is Luna, and she's an six-foot-tall woman with a slim, yet muscular build, ivory hair in a ponytail, a pale complexion, and blood-red eyes. I'm thinking that she's a jerk, but it's because her hard life made her angry, bitter, and willing to lie, cheat, steal, and kill. But yeah, I'm thinking that she will develop a kinship with her teammates (mostly the dragonborn druid, whose name is Viridian, due to them being polar opposites with some similarities, the minotaur barbarian, and the plasmoid monk/rogue).
I had an anti-hero and the way I made him work was making a narrow moral code that he followed. EX: Ambition; get as strong as possible and then get defeated by someone else, however doesn't care about innocent people dying such as a horde of goblins trying to kill a small village(not a problem because the village stands a chance no matter how small), but a well armed group of hobgoblins attacking is an evil act that is just a "waste of power" as the people have no chance of winning.
My Monster Hunter Fighter in my friday game is pretty much an anti-hero, his bonds are his family/friends and his motivation for adventuring is to get his kidnapped son back by any means necessary. At least he was like that at first, but one bombing of a city full of people later and, well, that's one he's not gonna live down anytime soon in his lifetime. As he moved forward in the journey from there he has had a lot of time to think about what he's done and how it affected his world at large. He's at the stage now where he realizes "Damn...I am a horrible person." and he's slowly coming to terms with the fact that he needs to be better. Not just for his friends and party, but for his family, his wife, especially his son.
The growth arc my DM and I are working on together is a kind of redemption/salvation type quest, it does not involve finding god or religion for this is more personal. It's my take on the duality of people, the genteel and the savage and how far will one go to take back that which matters most to him. Or put another way he is the Monster Hunter who became a monster, but now no longer wants to be a monster so he seeks change.
they're guilty and they're dead :) Also you missed one big example.. Deadpool.. (also Lobo from dc, but much less well known)
Notable anti heroes not mentioned. Jamie Lannister, John Constantine, Lucifer (Gaiman), Rorschach, The Rock, Sagara Sousuke, Sesshomaru, Boondock Saints, even Sherlock Holmes since the dude is likes his heroin. Lots of ways to play it up.
Personally, I'm of a mind that if you can sneak into the castle or fortress and poison the king/demon lord without a head to head fight then why not? Hell, even if you have to poison the water supply for the entire town to get it done. Oh yeah, Mr Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So poisoning a village of 10,000 to kill a king is preferable to allowing him to live and perhaps see 10,001 people suffer as a result!
Richard B. Riddick would seem to be a prime example to me, but maybe that's just me (and my having watched the 3 Riddick movies so many times, hehe).
Somewhat similar to Han Solo, and Lando (also favorites of mine), in that these anti-heroes start out a bit "bad", but over time become "better", or at very least are highly motivated to get along with at least some characters in the story who have mutual interests/goals (and this seems to show the character changing their personality slightly to be just a bit more virtuous usually; loyal, empthy, responsible, conscientious etc).
With only rare exceptions, i would say this sort of trend is probably realistic in that this sort of conditioning/training (whatever you want to call the influence working with a group has on the individual "lone wolf type"), often probably would, in reality, change the average person who maybe wasn't a life-long loner/introvert/sociopath/pscyho/unique-person. Obviously it depends on what character you want to portray, but if we're talking real world human statistics here... humans tend to cooperate with each other, even the more self-centered, introverted types. And most tend to empathize with other people to a great extent; it's a very rare person who truly doesn't care at all about what others think of them, or does not have some ability to put themselves in another persons' place and imagine what it would be like (i think they call them autistic, psychotic, brain damaged, or sociopaths actually... meaning the people who can't or won't empathize/care about others?), anyway, those people are quite rare in the general population (less than 5%? certainly no more than 10% if you are only counting the extremes of all the various amoral, unethical, self-centered types?).
Yes i realize we're playing a fantasy game, playing a role, but the game players are humans from the real world, in the end, so it might be worth considering how people are going to deal with such a rare type of personality type, even if it is "just a game".
Also, let's be clear that just because someone is not open minded, does not mean they are somehow less empathetic, caring, or smart. This is a video on personality i think everyone in the world would benefit from watching: ruclips.net/video/KxGPe1jD-qY/видео.html
summary: Jordan B. Peterson explains creativity how important it is, how important those without it are as well, and how political voting patterns fit into the Big Five personality types (which is the primary personality typing system used by modern science today btw).
You're sounding dangerously close to guilty Ted 😂😂😂
that was my favorite part too lol
Seems like the antihero is the default for most PCs. Sure, they'll save the world, but xp, loot and notoriety are a biiiiig motivating factor. Even lawful good characters often end up taking a very unsympathetic approach to justice. When did you last see a paladin setting up a shelter for wayward orcs when he could just smite them and scour the land of their menace?
My conquest paladin and my Vengence paladin approve of this message.
Nothing wrong with playing an A-Hole character...So long as you don't stay an A-Hole character for long. One of my friends favorite characters I played was a major A-Hole when the characters first met him. His name was Woe Souli the half Orc Barbarian and his background was the last of his clan who felt like a failure for not warning his people in time before they were killed. He would do things like when a character would take the poster down for a job he would snatch it out of his hand to read it then toss it back to them claiming they will likely die if they take that job. He would call the others names like "Meat" or "half a man" ironic I know. This continued until they fought with him in battle. This was the turning point because Woe never backed down from a fight even when it was likely they would die. When they didn't run his attitude changed, now they were worthy of his praise as warriors. Giving them nicknames like "half a legend" like me. But "Meat" stuck because he was a ranged fighter but he would say "You done good meat."
That is the secret to playing an A-Hole, just don't stay one for too long.
movie " Guardians of the Galaxy "
This is a wonderful video! I'm interested in how to authentically play a rogue without pissing off the lawful good characters. For sure doing things stealthily will help combat irritable feelings buy any other tips? Y'all are great btw
I believe the anti-hero only works when the words and terminology they use are not the typical lingo of a hero. However their actions are still heroic. Coarse, inappropriate, rude, and uncaring words matched with selflessness during crunch time is the hallmark of the anti-hero. Also obscuring heroic motives through actions that can be perceived as negative, if you don't know the person conducting them, are also what makes an anti-hero. Like a person who sinks all the ships in the bay area to stop sailors from leaving because the ships were rigged with bombs or there is an absurdly powerful storm coming that would not only sink the ships anyway but potentially increasing the damage the town might take.
Oooh I've been planning on playing a paladin that does the right things for the wrong reasons, this video comes at the perfect time!
Soth?
I have a player in my play group that does pretty much everything that was said about the problems of being an anti-hero, granted we can get a little dark at times but he does get under our skin.
My LE half orc blood hunter joined the party because he thought they could help him get his revenge. He still wants that, but over time the party because his new "tribe." Still does sketchy and evil stuff (mostly beheadings), but he looks to the cleric for moral guidance now, at times.
My current character is an anti-hero. He is Greldrar Arikhom, a Hobgoblin avenger paladin who's legion was annihilated by crusaders, sending their lands into chaos.
What I try to do is focus on Greldrar's sense of honour and his respect for his ally's martial skill. He is a soldier, a team player. He KNOWS he can't afford to be a lone-wolf. And he also knows the "soft races" can't always handle the "realities of war".
I also try to use less... Descriptive language when "interrogating" people in the view of others. Same with the... "Messages" he sends to his/the parties enemies.
One tip I have is to add sillier, perhaps even cute, moments. Greldrar also practices yoga, and is obsessed with cleaning himself after battle. It helps remove the feeling that your character is all edge and violence.
In an online campaign I play in, we play a party of people who are all morally diverse, but work together to help achieve our goals and all contribute to the party’s effectiveness, helping us realise our characters are useful to one another. I play a Neutral Evil Human Necromancy Wizard who is a bumbling supervillain and asshole, and likes to steal things and wishes to create undead servants to carry out his every wish and basic lifestyle needs because he’s incredibly lazy, and he’s also a serial thief/con artist. However, he never betrays the party, and protects them as mutual interests because he knows they are better to him alive. He also knows when to back down or lay off from doing questionable things in their presence because it creates conflict. Meanwhile, the Chaotic Neutral Warlock does the same thing, and he is also morally ambivalent. The chaotic good ranger and chaotic good barbarian frequently pull us up on our actions, and our characters look up to them because they are seen as beacons of hope, so our characters always listen to them or at least try to behave around them.
That is how our party of heroes, anti heroes and outright villains works together and we all have a tonne of fun. We set the expectations in the first session and all were happy with what we have going.
Other good examples of anti heroes; Spawn, Deadpool, Venom symbiote, Geralt of Rivia, And John Wick
The hardline lawful good character has always been a greater source of conflict against what the rest of the party wants to do than the edgiest dudes in any game I've ever been in
I pretty much always play morally flawed characters. First there was the Barbarian who had been a chaoituic evil brigand but who after the death of his sister in jail had turned a new leaf and tried to be lawful good now. Then there was the pathological liar gentleman adventurer. Then the Ronin who had survived to death of his lord but was to cowardly to fall on his sword so he sought deaht on battle. Then The hexblood alchemist who was obsessed wit turning herself back to human before her Hag side took over and she turned fully into a hag. And now I am playign a lawful evil noble rogue who probably would be the villain of any other campaign but ends up on the side of the heroes because the world is invaded by dragons.
I play a Half-Drow Warlock who, after scaping from Drow society and from the Feywild, just wanta to fit in nicely in Human society, in spite of being so awkward.
My party says he's a good archetype for an Anti-Hero.
A “fun” anti-hero is one I enjoy playing, the charismatic guy that slowly introduces the other characters to progressively more ... darker decisions, until the other characters are acting more like villains than heroes. It pleases me when they start using my tactics, start imitating my catch lines.
How to make a good anti-hero IMO: Make them smart... they understand that they NEED the party and they do not want them as enemies. They can desire to do horrible things, but before they go too far, they ask their party if they are ok with this... Often telling your party "leave me alone with them..." and telling the DM you are attempting torture behind closed doors will be more than enough to set the tone and it could even be used by the good characters, to use intimidation, or persuasion with your character as the monster they use to scare the bad guys... Basically turning the situation from a loner in a party, to good cop, bad cop, where you are the bad cop.
Lmao
This describes my chaotic neutral rogue. I mean in fairness we had a true neutral paladin of mask and neutral good fighter/warlock. I think we had a good mesh and avoided infighting. For example when my character was leaning towards a different direction but did come back when the party wanted to join Force Grey and I wanted to join the Zhentirum. I even role played a crisis when he didn't want to go with the party on a dangerous mission.
A Neutral Pally (or pally of something other than LG) is always something I have wanted to see/play more of. I don't really see why they have to be limited to anything beyond maybe "lawful" (go imply their strict adherence to their code/order/organization?), OR just get with the DM/GM and make sure their order/organization/code is clearly defined [in a detailed document which you both have a copy of] and you both (plus maybe 'the internets' or some other reference/consultant too?) agree that it pretty much matches the alignment you want to play.
A character with a dependancy on the party works much better than a standard anti-hero, such as an ex-slave that needs orders to just do the basics of life but will do anything to a death cleric warforged that has seen robots destroyed, disassembled and rebuilt so doesn't understand the morality of necromancy and relies on the party to not bumble social interactions. Leaning into everything they can't do and must rely on others for really helps connect them to the party and not turn into another villain.
Here what was think for play thief. Ask for permission to steal from the party as a way to practice your skills and to teach the party members how to better defend themselves from other thieves a "It takes a thief to catch a thief" kinda thing.
I've been kicking around the idea of a _Burn Notice_ spy characters trying to clear their name.
I would say the other side of this is, don't be an unbending Lawful Good boy scout either. That Paladin who is ready to start pvp because the Thief took some gold, they are just as much to blame for conflict, and they are pulling "It's what my character would do." just as much. Maybe the Paladin who has problems with the Thief (but travels with them, because they know ultimately they are a force for good) leaves gold behind whenever they leave town just to cover their asses, or maybe they pray for their friend at every meal and give lectures on a long rest. A Paladin isn't always going to kill first and reason later.
One of the things that always bugs me is how simple things like stealing, or even threatening violence will set some people off, and yet you can kill a few hundred bandits, or a horde of orcs and not bat an eyelash. If you're gonna be moralizing, keep your "Good" characters consistent. It makes it easier to work with (or around) them. This can be said for those anti-heroes, or straight up villains too. Figure out the boundaries, what lines don't they cross, and why. Why do they feel they can cross the moral boundaries others put up. Just being Chaotic___ isn't enough, why are they that way, and how do they expect to get by i the world given their outlook.
Morality is and always shall be subjective. But D&D simplifies things to a much greater degree, because objective evil exists. The Nine Hells, The Abyss, the gods, and creatures being beholden to their alignment, those are actual in world things as much as they are mechanical. So there is that.
As for the Paladin though, yeah he too should be more flexible. Violence shouldn't be his first answer, but inversely that's something that the players need to come to equilibrium about more so than the characters. And I say that as a guy that plays lots of Paladins.
If you're the Lawful Good Devotion Paladin, you are beholden to a set of ideals, your party however *are not* . You can't force everyone you meet to also conform to your vow, this is a fact and something that the player needs to keep in mind. Like you said being in the party with that guy also means that other players need to know how far is too far. If you're in a party, then there needs to be a convincing reason why this particular group of people would be adventuring together.
If the entire party is otherwise Chaotic Evil, it doesn't make so much sense that Lawful Good guy is working with them willingly. If everyone else is Good, you need an explanation for Chaotic Evil Jackson over there...and so on. Maybe your characters are forced to work toward a common goal, if so everyone is going to have to remember that goal in times of strife. And so that's probably the best answer always, its better to have characters that natively would get along, but if there are conflicts the players should already have plans around those as players.
@@LupineShadowOmega Agreed, and also as we are generally not playing a planar creature like a devil or celestial or what have you, our alignments flex and shift accoring to the pressures around them. I mean that LG Paladin is a grump sometimes, or just acting without thinking, and he can suppress his feelings when he has to, though there may be consequences should he do that too often. Same goes for the CE whoever. It's an old adage, but CE shouldn't mean Chaotic Stupid. Basically if playing within alignment, feel free to let that guide you, but recognize you're not a robot, (unless you're playing a robot lol) somehow you've managed to get by in a world of myriad people without having to strike down those of opposing alignments every time you go for lunch.
@@Lurklen Indeed. Though I'd argue that Lawful Good doesn't mean pleasant to be around. I say it a lot, but "good" doesn't always translate to nice, like he has to uphold the law and do right by others, but that doesn't mean he's not a complaining jerk. XD I've definitely played that character.
@@LupineShadowOmega Oh man absolutely, Good can be downright scary at times, and thoroughly unpleasant at others. Not all good folk have the luxury of also being kind.
@@LupineShadowOmega Well... actually... "good" might mean you don't complain or be much of a jerk imo... the alignments are pretty broad and seem like they are a starting point that one should then interpret exactly how they apply to you personally, individually, in a unique manner each time you make a character with that alignment. For example; some people might take "lawful" to literally mean following any/all rules/laws of the place/organization the individual is in, while others might characterize "lawful" as just having a specific, more-ridged-than-not code that you follow (code that could be from anywhere; a single source, multiple, or somewhere in between), or you could be somewhere in between these two types of lawful (so having tendency to follow a personal code and mostly follow the other laws/codes of the place you are, assuming that issue is not covered in your personal/organizational/order's code of course).
One of the best anti-heros I've seen, played entirely straight, was "The Spider" from a UK comic book.
He's a middle-aged, extremely fit and agile rich genius with an ego bigger than Jupiter who is an insufferable genius and is all the more insufferable for the fact that he never over-estimates his own abilities and rarely under-estimates his enemies.
If you want to compare The Spider to today's comic book and film heroes (and villains), he'd be Batman with the contempt for others of Darkseid and the genius toys of Iron Man (no armor though), and his motivation is simply that crime-fighting is a challenge which keeps him from being bored.
I got called a murder hobo by a dm of a one shot because I killed all the guards blocking our path. He's a player with me in a campaign in witch I have one damaging spell the rest are healing and support.
I'm glad I knew a lot of these things when I tried playing a necromancer. Unfortunately, my one mistake was forgetting to reset my character sheet from a previous campaign to have Acid Splash instead of Chill Touch, and so the paladin was having none of it because he wanted to play a Gygaxian LG that smites all of the evil, the women and the children too, slaughtered like animals.
Now I've got a fellow player that's gone Walter White trying to be an anti-hero and going full villain, and both I and the DM have been trying to hint and outright state that he's clearly putting his character before the party. Made worse that he's been complaining about his lack of fun when he's clearly running the show, offers no suggestions for what he wants out of the game, spits on anything the DM offers, and is currently planning to kill several (powerful!) NPCs because he doesn't like them, even though they're party contacts and have quests around them. I'm hoping everyone can talk him to sanity so he doesn't have to leave our already barren game group, but man it's hard going.
Worst comes to worst, I'll send him this video ;)
I want to know what happened with that player
@@tishabyte The first is still in our group, everything is a learning experience and actually talking about what you want out of your character (in this case: wanting an arc where a party member stands up to their Oath of Glory Paladin) is part of that. He's currently playing a Battle Master in my game that's specifically against tyranny and wants to carve wood, and it's much smoother going.
The other guy had dropped himself from the group. Between Covid and outright accusing the DM (guy above) that he was out to get him, he left to cool his head and it's been a year since. Can't exactly say I miss him, between character hostilities and 'claiming' NPCs, but it's still a little disappointing he missed the final session of the module I was running. At least his Paladin is having a good time in NPC-retirement leading the local militia.
I don't know, a few early atrocities can really set the tone of your character, and add an edge of party interaction to get everyone into things. If you slit a few evil captured enemy's throats early, your group suddenly all has to answer how their characters sit on the moral spectrum. And now people are interacting/involved because they want to make sure you aren't offing any other baddies. You could go the whole rest of the campaign and never slit another throat, but the party will have it in their minds and reacting to it.
Right, but there does need to be some kind of consistency or explanation for change of behavior for it to make sense beyond just "i'm not being bad now so i don't bother the other players".
@@chaosegg Sure, although if you are playing with several of the uncommon races, their alien mindsets are the justification in some cases. Lizardfolk, Yaunti, goblinoids, kobolds, drow & duergar... many times their racial heritage is NOT to show mercy to enemies, or to make examples to prevent future enemies, or to eliminate threats before they become enemies or escape to become bigger enemies. The interaction between the rest of a party and someone with that kind of background can be a lot of fun :P
My players, which are 2 criminals, an ex-pirate, and a drunken monk with a haunted past make up my motley crue of anti-heroes. They do conflict with the Paladin I play along side them, but HE is the one who makes the darker decisions when the players can't come up with a positive solution. Then again, he is a Tiefling Oath of Conquest Paladin who worships the Valkyrie Zariel, whom which he doesn't know has fallen and became a lord of the 9 Hells. (My world has more of a Norse theme so the Valkyries are the Angels)
I am actually currently struggling with my first character i started. Hes violent, hateful,drunk and mentally insane ,but hes goal is to slay all aberrations (also the over arching goal of our quest). he sticks to this quest entirely , if somethings in his way he will smash or burn past it be it friend or foe, so much so he took one of the new lvl 1 party members under his wing as a slave to fight aberrations until she became to boisterous and annoying and freed her. now heres the problem , none of my party wish to or seemingly can take a leading role leaving the job up to the insane asshat that is my character. this leads to the party disagreeing and out right resisting my characters decisions while none wish to take the mantle of leader. this has now come to blow where a new entry to our crew tried to forcibly make friends with him (non-stop conversation starters and physically clinging to my character), even with my warnings that hes an asshole and he should be very carefully conversed with. i ended up having to follow my characters personality somewhat by striking her but not killing her, as we were in a siege scenario. The group is now unhappy with this character and i don't know what to do. Ive played him like an asshole from the begin when we were a party of 3, i have not changed his persona up until now with our 5 man party and only the additions have a problem with it. i have asked people to take the helm then and run leader but they all cop out due to in experience. is seems the only options they are leaving me is change my character to suit them. any recommendations? This is my only darkish character, i have all the others are goody too shoes and therefor the crew has no problem with them which i don't find really fair, and id like to keep him as such.
Was there a "Social contract" or "session zero" at the start of this campaign [where this kind of thing was talked about/voted-on/written out/contract-made]? if someone just joined, or a new person enters the game, i'd say the concept of 'seniority' (those with more time invested get more privilege/choice/reward) could make sense in some situations, so maybe it is the newbie who should adapt [not you]?
...but that being said, it is a game that is supposed to be fun, so you all could do the opposite, or something in between if you wanted; whatever suits everyone the best would be my recommendation in the end i guess.
On the other hand,
maybe some introspection would be helpful; thinking about what you want to get out of the character over the course of the entire campaign, and/or life of the character.
...For example, you might ask yourself:
Do you want to be playing a character that is going to have continuing conflicts with the majority of other people/players (who are going to most likely play fantasy, but still "generally-average-human"-morality/ethics-wise-characters; because consciously or not, it'd be my guess that that is what ends up happening most of the time in most games, EVEN in games with a clear social contract written out in blood that allows for whatever; human nature is difficult to do away with and hurting other beings we camp empathize with is really something that goes against our fundamental nature,
UNLESS it is in defense of loved ones, property etc)?
So basically that brings us to the next question you might ask yourself about where you want to go with your character:
in most cases humans need some kind of "violence in defense of xxxxxx" reason or excuse, or they are going to be unwilling, or traumatized/unhinged when confronted with, or having acted upon some kind of anthropomorphic (human-on-human) unpleasantness, [especially if it is 'up-close-and-personal', or face-to-face distance].
...So, you either work to build in more reasons/motivations [for your behavior] that make sense for both your char. and the rest of the group as well, or accept that there will either be increasing conflict with your own mind &/or the other party members.
...Consider what usually happens in movies/shows with anti-heroes;
they gradually change into more of a hero (see Han Solo, Lando, Riddick, etc), e.g. they get "better",
or they go nuts, die, or are physically impaired in some way [like prison/injury] (or some combination of things, and end up getting "worse".
...
BUT, If someone's or multiple someones' are having their fun disrupted, and YOU don't want to change, AND your group won't compromise, one idea is to swap to a new character (the story could go something like: problematic character is retiring, wandering off to do something else, is killed/seriously disabled to the effect of no longer being able to adventure with the others in this campaign, or any number of other stories you could role play if you wanted to toss one character out,
and then make a new character who is then introduced to the campaign, which you play instead.
Sorry for the wall of text, and any errors, i'm too tired to go over it all again at this point so i'm going to call it good and wish you well. :)
@@chaosegg yes with each new player entry we discussed the jist of what we were doing , allowing the rest to be decided and role played out by the DM . i explicitly explained the unorthodox role my character played and hints on how to get on his good side(i would like him to become friends with his party somehow ,while brutally maiming ,destroying and violating things in his way).this has not helped and infact sometimes my warning have gone unheard.
also a side note ,i do think my dm has been too war game orientated and i feel we have not had enough between the party time to interact.
@@chaoseggi have thought about pulling out of the campaign with him and maybe bring one of my super nice lawfull characters. problem is my current char. has secured himself a fortress that is the now base of operations for his hes a part of guild. with out him they wont have access to the traders or craftsman within ,at least until my friends character finally joins.
Thanks for the reply alot to think about and discuss with DM