@@foggyforest2625 Eren is a weird one. I don't think he really fit as an antihero in the first 2 thirds, just a standard hero, but then after, let's just say I'd call him more a villain. ~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe - Though I haven't finished AoT as of yet, I'm inclined to disagree. Even when Eren is objectively doing the right thing, even when his actions don't cause harm to anyone else and serves the greater good, at the core his actions are always motivated by his singular desire for vengeance. When he's not fighting, he's just waiting and preparing for the next battle, intent on destroying his enemy with extreme prejudice. Maybe his motivation isn't really challenged by the narrative at first, but it's always there, consuming his every waking and sleeping moment to the point that it's all he lives for, and he can't conceive of anything beyond it. At least that's my impression.
I swear the RUclips algorithm hates good content sometimes, this is one of my favorites of yours! Serious question- does it help/show engagement if I just have the video on loop at all? I'll just leave it up if so, this vid does not deserve to die :(
I think I'd have to agree with Momo on "meow?" being the best antihero out there Also wow, Graham the wizard, who likes cats (or is it Graham, the wizard who likes cats...?) sure has gone through quite the emotional arc in recent times
Zuko doesn't just have mommy issues, he has daddy issues and sister issues, too. At certain points in the series, he even has uncle issues. Zuko doesn't just have mommy or daddy issues, he has 'whole dam family issues'.
He has the "growing up with psychological issues, in a family that has psychological issues, that doesn't acknowledge dealing with psychological issues" issues...
there's this tumblr post i love that says something along the lines of 'daddy issues make you a people pleaser, mommy issues make you a sociopath' and someone reblogged it with a picture of zuko and azula and i have never forgotten it.
The interesting thing about V, at least in the comic, is that he is a anarchist mirror to the fascist government. In fact, the chapter he is introduced is titled “The Villain” and that text is next to him in the panel. That is something the movie kind of missed on; V apologizes to Evey in the movie over what he did to her and claimed it was necessary, comic V never does. He’s a monster the state made him and knows he has no place in the world that people will create once he has torn down the system. I think the Wachowskis softening him a little wasn’t wrong, but felt like it wasn’t the point.
Interesting, did not know that. So kinda like the bounty hunter in firefly, in that show he even states there is no place in the world he seeks to create for monsters like him.
@@HelloFutureMe “V For Vendetta” the movie broadly follows the plot of the comic, but the Wachowskis changed much of the setting and particularly the politics. Alan Moore was interested in Anarchism versus Fascism in the context of Thatcher’s UK, the Wachowskis were interested in Bush era War on Terror politics and how freedom can be surrendered for security. Also, the comic has much grubbier a world and has more characters suffering in it. That explores the theme. But for V himself, it his hard to argue that Evey was anything other than his instrument to get revenge on the people who destroyed him and to be his replacement for when it becomes time to build a new society. The Wachowskis’ V is much more human in my view for lack of a better word.
I love watching Anakin's fall throughout the Clone Wars series. Every choice is understandable, even if they aren't the best choice. For example, where he kills the terrorist threatening to blow up the ship. An objectively good thing to do in most stories as it saves lives and stops the villain. But in universe, it shows how Anakin does not hesitate at all to kill if it means saving people he cares about
It’s also a nice way to see his struggle with “the Jedi way.” We hear that term thrown around quite a lot, but Anakin never really buys into it. From a relationship perspective, we can absolutely understand why he’d think “screw the Jedi way,” and we can tell that Obi-Wan can empathize with that even if others do not; from the perspective of taking a life, though, we start to think that perhaps he’s being TOO lenient in his interpretation of the Jedi way, and even Obi-Wan is disturbed by this (case in point, the terrorist/traitor you mentioned). This comes packaged together with the Jedi’s role as generals and warriors in the Clone Wars (a role in which they will inevitably have to end lives… And if you as the reader acknowledge battle droids as sentient beings, things become very grim all of a sudden), because telling Anakin off for killing people so flippantly would seem kinda hypocritical at this point. It’s like Palpatine had this exact thing in mind as part of his plan with the Clone Wars, which is just incredible to think about.
We also see how the Jedi aren't equipped to lead in a war. Their decisions and morals put the Clones in danger. But the Jedi are meant to preserve life; Krell is extreme example, why was the council Okay with him throwing away the lives of the clones? Or in the Citadel. Everytime a clone died, the jedi winced and said something like "We have to move! NOW!" "We lost one." But *spoiler* when master Piell dies. The jedi stop wrapp him in bandages and cremate him in the Jedi tradition. Anakin says earlier in that episode with Tarkin. "Sometimes the Jedi code stops us from going far enough to achieve victory."
@@TotalTirpitz tbf, when that last one died, they could afford to stop and cremate him; the mission was over, they weren’t being actively hounded anymore, no more urgency. But yes, the Jedi did (usually) sacrifice clones almost as readily as the Separatists did droids, which really did not go well with their Jedi way
@@jordinagel1184 The chase stop for the cremation the Warden (forgotten his name) is still after them and the space battle is happening overhead. Is a bit less urgency then when some of the clones die; that's fair. And I imagine that hypocrisy didn't sit well with Anakin; whenever we see him he's doing everything he can to save the lives of his troops because of that teaching.
One of my favorites is also when Anakin straight up orders the clones to firing squad execute Asajj Ventress on Kamino. She almost ended the war by stealing the clone genome, and so he's basically just like "She's too much of a threat, it's time to end that threat." He does it so casually too it's a bit chilling when you stop to think about it.
Anti heroes with inner demons need humanizing moments. Without those demons interfering with the plot, they turn into Mary Sues, but if they don't have those moments that turn them from tropes to people, they're literally just a lump of angst.
As OSP rightly put a while back, antiheroes are pretty difficult to get right without having them go either full hero or full villain. But hey, I guess that just makes them a good writing challenge 😊
I try never to think of my characters as Hero , Anti-hero, or a Villain, because it's very easy to start writing about "Tropes rather than people" as you so eloquently put it. Though, if I had to pick a favorite anti-hero, it would probably be Butcher from the Boys. (the Show.)
@@Aranoura In full honesty, I probably would have chosen another name if I had taken more time to think it out. This one doesn't really feel like it represents my personality very well. Glad you like it though.
One anti-hero that I've loved recently is Luthen from Andor. His speech in episode 10 really sets his character. He knows that he uses immoral, sometimes even 'bad' methods to fight the Empire. Luthen is fully aware of who and what he, willing to give up his personal peace and comfort so that the rest of the galaxy can get theirs.
@@TheSuperRatt *Rolls eyes* Just read the lore. The SW Galaxy is a shitty place, and things were better off for 99% of the galaxy under the empire, compared to the periods before and after.
@@GoldenSunAlex yes, things went great once they instituted slavery. military spending continued to skyrocket after war ended, and firing squads were sent to every protest
@@GoldenSunAlex Palpatine orchestrated both sides of a war so that the senate would give him emergency powers, which he continued to abuse until he had accumulated enough military power to declare himself emperor. This does not sound legitimate to me.
A comment to get lost in the sea: Merlin (BBC) may not have the best writing, BUT DEAR IF IT DOESN'T GO HARD ON THE THEMES. And when you talked about hero-to-anti-hero/villain & the tragedy involved in it, it just made me remember it. Morgana is an anti-hero who goes full villain and Merlin is a hero with the moral of an anti-hero. And if you watched the show, you would know what I am talking about! (I just had to say it. Is so much fun to read-too-much into this show, because it lets you. Is a family show, but it lets you, since is also a tragedy.)
Yeah I always liked how Morgana's fall arc is just so inevitable too. You can morally follow her every step of the way and come to the conclusion you might do the same. Very compelling character.
It kills me watching the show knowing that nearly everything in the final season could be fixed if Merlin could bring himself to be nice to a desperately lonely kid who just wants some positive reinforcement
@@Ouvii She was done for me when she genuinly believed to have claim to the throne on the basis of her heritage while denying Uther as her father at the same time. It was so ridiculous.
20:23 "Characters don't have to be likeable, they just need to be interesting". Thank you. I write mostly Villain Protagonist stories, this is what I like and am satisfied with writing about. Sometimes they more on the grey side, sometimes they in the black and white universe, sometimes they pure 80', or just Chaos Champion in Warhammer 40k or Age of Sigmar. But I really try to make them interesting and matching the universe/theme I try to go with, whitout going to the side of anti-hero or "hero, but the badge is wrong" or "anti-hero at worst but everyone else is a psycho". They are villains, main character villains, they are not symphathethic nor likable, they will have humanising characteristics and I try and work really hard to make them interesting, have something that reader would go "Ok, I wonder what happens next?". Because I love fictional villains, wheter it's Cobra Commander, G1 Megatron, Skeletor, Hannibal Lecter, Lucius the Eternal, Doctor Doom, clan Tzimisce or comic book Thanos.
I'm also attempting to write a villain protagonist, but in such a way that the reader doesn't quite realize that the protagonist was a villain all along. Epistolary first person is my attempt to disguise it, since then the reader isn't just limited to the protagonist's thoughts but to what they write, but it's definitely a negative arc and definitely one that is going to cause a lot of chaos as people fight about whether the protagonist is an antihero who does what they think is right or a full blown villain on a mission.
I never read Artemis Fowl and I have a question about it:Why is he named Artemis? I mean I am from India and there's a lot of men named after goddesses here but they usually have suffixes like 'servant' or 'foot' to make the name masculine but Artemis doesn't seem to have any like this. So... I am just a curious guy who wants to know why is such.
@@CaptainvonDore Well, yes, normally it's the same in western languages, and a lot of traditional names do have different suffixes based on gender, but Greek deities have never really been popular namesakes in western Europe or the English-speaking world, and since ancient Greek is also not a widely spoken language I suspect it's probably unlikely that those gendered naming conventions would've popped up (or stuck around) in relation to those particular names. More notably though, there is actually a somewhat corny bit in the third book where the villain makes fun of Artemis by saying "isn't that a girl's name?" and then at the end when Artemis inevitably outsmarts him he explains that yes, it is the name of a female goddess, but she's also the goddess of the hunt and Artemis does think of himself as a sort of hunter (he genuinely says "I hunted you" to the guy, which is perhaps a bit over the top but it seemed cool to me when I was like 13).
Personally, I'd say Kratos is unironically a damn good anti-hero. This is especially present in the two most recent games, where in the former, he's cold to his son and to others, but gives life lessons to his sons. As compared, in the latter game, he becomes someone worth praise.
He goes from sympathetic villain to antihero, his whole job narratively for a long time is making Arya a worse person and showing her that her world isn't for heroes.
One of my favorite anti-heros who you didn't mention is Amos Burton from The Expanse. He's a sociopath (or at least has sociopathic tendancies) and is a mix of the "tragic backstory" and "doing good things but taking it too far" groups. He can't really tell the difference between what's good and bad, but he's also aware of it. One of the most interesting things about him is that he actively tries to find an actual good person to follow so that he doesn't need to worry about making the wrong decisions. It's one of the very few examples of a sociopathic character that I know of actually being the good guy.
Who here is watching the Last of Us show!? I hope Deadpool and the Punisher forgive me for not bringing them up. Who is your favourite antihero??? ~ Tim
I think the Mandalorian counts as an antihero. Maybe he stretches the line on heroism, but in my book he is an antihero. he kinda reminds me of The Last of Us. a warrior played by Pedro Pascal, meets a child, who he then adopts and becomes a surrogate father for
Favorite Anti-hero: Guts from Berserk phenomenal story, with Guts' arc bringing it all together. He goes from not knowing anything but violence to finding friends, a goal, and a reason to keep struggling
It would be great to see Jimmy cited in this video. Walter White and Jimmy are both great, almost archetypal examples of Anti-Heroes but are wildly different in almost every way
I'm going to add Garak from DS9 to your list of awesome anti-heroes. He has clear (and often noble) motivations and goals, but uses questionably moral means. Sometimes he challenges his closest friends and allies, but other times he inspires them. He clearly has a lot of inner demons about his past and new inner conflicts as he grows closer to specific individuals. He puts the cause before hurting them on more than one occassion. And when he does find someone he can fully relate to, he loses her. That hurt. In one of my favorite episodes we get to see the worst of who he was once and who he could be again if pushed to the extremes of his flaws. He is also incredibly witty and charismatic. He is one of my favorite Star Trek characters because he is a very complicated, morally grey character who shows growth, but will never fully transition to a hero. This is especially interesting considering the show wants you to see the world through an optimistic lens.
I've just figured something out (someone prolly found it but I wanted to throw it out anyway) The anti hero's torturous side is not what we care about, it's the human side that we do care about. The torturous side makes us appreciate the human side more by showing how broken someone is.
I have two personal favorite anti-heroes. First is Guts from Berserk, because he is not always an anti-hero and if anything, he doesn't want to be, but circumstances push him to be. Second would be Kratos from God of War, especially in the Norse Era. He is not a fully good person, and he wants to be better, but he doesn't know how. HIs growth from villain protagonist, to anti-hero, and to true hero was so satisfying to watch!
You mentioned a character treating different people very differently and I instantly had to think of Arcane's Silco for that matter. He's treating Jinx completely different than anyone else and while I don't see him in the Antihero category it still makes him one of the most interesting characters in any media imo. When it comes to Antiheroes I'm gonna name Captain Blocker from the movie Hostiles. He too treats different people incredibly differently, and he does have some arc. Also, this movie should be used as educational material for leaders because there is much gold to find there.
I consider Silco an anti-hero because he is fighting for a just cause (freedom from Piltover's oppression for his people) but does it in the wrong way (becoming the monster he fights). Vander, Silco's foil, also wants (or wanted) the same thing as Silco, and no one would question Vander being a hero. If Silco has the same motivation as the hero, he too is a hero, narratively speaking. But he is certainly not a paragon of morality, so I feel anti-hero is the most fitting title for him. I completely agree that his love for Jinx made him one of the most interesting characters in any media. I could have watched an entire series of him and Jinx. Silco struggling to balance his war efforts, criminal enterprise, and being a good father to Jinx. Jinx struggling to overcome her trauma while also doing her best to be a good soldier in Silco's army and criminal enterprise, in part to make him proud, but also because she believes in the cause. If Jinx eventually came to believe Vander was right about the end not justifying the means, we could have some compelling tension between two characters that would normally be on each other's side absolutely and without question. How would Silco handle opposition he can never bring himself to harm, much less kill? How would Jinx handle the monster she helped create when she, too, can never harm or kill him? The team involved in Arcane's production are simply fantastic and have produced a season that is a work of art, but I really feel they missed a golden opportunity to take season 2 to even greater heights than is (likely) now possible.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 fair points, indeed! I've never quite thought of those characters in labels (yet) but your train of thought makes sense. Also, I'm really trying to keep my hopes up for season 2 and stay 100% spoiler free on the way. Going into season 1 completely blind was awesome. I really hope they keep going on the same path, namely with the graphics "just" being the outstanding tool of conveying a rich story that has such interesting characters. I'll miss Silco, personally. His spot regarding complexity and story depth is certainly hard to replace. Not to make it sound like the others had no depth - on the contrary. But he stood out even amonst THEM.
@@BadNessie I agree with all of this. Silco will be hard to replace, for sure, but the cast as a whole is so strong that I am sure they can pull off another epic season. I was worried about them being able to recapture the quality and depth of the first season for season 2 until I saw they pretty much flat out said, "You will get it when you get it, but it's coming." That tells me they are going to put in the same passion and effort they put into season 1, and we already know the team has what it takes to do great things. The wait is killing me, but I am happy to wait as many years as it takes to get season 1 level quality for another season.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 he isn't remotely an anti-hero. He is just a manipulative villain who happens to love the child he stole from her sister and groomed to be a murderous crazy person. He's a piece of shit.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 I see him as an anti-villain. He wants Zaun to be advanced and independent but turned into a drug crazed ghetto, he cares for Jinx but also shields her from vital information like her sister's whereabouts, he's cruel and authoritarian but only because he was raised in a cruel and authoritarian world.
Worm plays this very well especially because you are in the antihero's head the whole story and while she acknowledges she isn't the best, she's really, really good about not thinking about it. One of the most striking moments being one of the "interlude" chapters from someone else's perspective and it's clear just how terrifying she is. It's abundantly clear if you stop and think about what any of the fights would actually look like but because the main character is so at ease with it, it doesn't really hit you until you see it through someone else.
Worm is one of the best depictions of an anti-hero I have ever read. She does so much bad, and even evil stuff, but she is genuinely convinced that doing so is for the best and thinks she is making the best choice she can. It's a very compelling narrative.
I adore the Artemis Fowl plug--especially since someone made a movie whose protagonist had a very similar name, but claim they didn't see why a kid's story should be about an anti-hero. That said, Artemis is also a perfect example of an anti-hero with foils. Holly the cop from the morality view, but also Butler as the more experienced anti-hero just doing his job. Such a good series!
My favourite antihero has to be Wesley Wyndam-Pryce from Angel, because it’s not just a positive or negative arc, as we see him transition positively from a naive wannabe into a genuine hero, by becoming braver, more confident and more badass, but as he continues to grow in those qualities he starts blurring the line more and more often as we watch him progress negatively into a jaded antihero, which led to him being abandoned by those he was trying to save
Angel made the worst characters from Buffy (Angel and Wesley) into some of the best. I thought Wesley was going to be comic relief, then before I even knew it he stole a child.
Excellent choice, some of the best character development in TV ever for Wesley. I would never say he's ever a hero, as we saw through Giles and Wesley a part of what watchers do is make the hard choices so their slayers don't have to.He definitely fits that lancer role in the group.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Also cordy,not that cordy was awful,but she really is such a good character with growth while using her qualities she always had the social, her big mouth, her empathy , resourcefulness, being annoying even, and is such a good hero using those to help people and solvw problems. Like she really is donr justice as strong female character that is flawed but she uses all that , for good. And her growth,but i love that they say she is fine as she is, she is grounded as disapointed lost in la. And she fits in the team as she too wants to help people, find her place, and purpose. Hell she probably has it the most together and sees angel needs her as that and that she can use her strong personality, for good.
Westley is my favorite character in Angel, and Angel is my favorite show of all time. His arc is beautiful and incredibly sad. Even when the story of Angel got bad, the characters were usually still very well written.
There are a vast multitude of antiheroes to chose from, but I'm going to tentatively say my favourite is Homura Akemi from Madoka Magica. And actually, Kyoko Sakura from the same series too, notable given the different trajectories their arcs end up on.
Have you seen Hadestown? It is one of the best examples of an idiot plot/tragic hero I've ever seen. It's incredibly well written and the music is phenomenal!
Okay, this is weird, I was listening to the album just earlier today. I agree, absolutely phenomenal. (Also there was a comment from someone who had previously thought that Hades' line "I conduct the electric city!" was "I can dance the electric shimmy!" which is hilarious.)
I think one of the consistent traits that I've seen in successful anti-heroes is that they are very competent. I'd be interested if there are any examples where that is not true.
Yeah they have to be in order to counter how they might be reluctant, or a barely functioning addict, or just trying really hard to make up for a mistake they made.
Really like the term "gritty fatigue." It's why I stopped watching Walking Dead pretty early and could barely finish the first season of True Detective.
The last of us and the pair of anti-heros in Joel and Ellie are such difficult and wonderful characters. The adaption that is on at the moment is giving us some really good takes on the story and characters as well. Love your work mate.
Eren from Attack on Titan is super interesting for many of the reasons you brought up. He moved from Hero to Anti Hero to Villain over the course of the TV show. I don't think the story was told perfectly but it's pretty good.
Eren actions were Wrong.. But He had Every Right To Protect His Nation.. The Majority of the world wanted his nation destroyed. Even when he's made himself the villain which has had his friends be labeled as Heroes... The Nation was Destroyed later. Keep in Mind he was Brink of Destroying Humanity Is When everybody was beginning to regret Their Actions despite the fact that they refused to compromise earlier... even in the different timeline where he and Mikasa was a Couple, peace wasn't possible and the country was destroyed. His actions were wrong. But He was Left With No Choice...and Worse He was Proven Right When His Nation was wipes out... majority of the world's kept on terrorizing his Nation and succeeded in destroying it even after he died..
@@elpopman2055 Nah, Eren did all that just cause he wanted to. He was born a murderer. He got the opportunity to murder as many people as he could and wanted to do that purely for its own sake, regardless of any of the specific circumstances surrounding his actions. It was entirely selfish and evil. Eren was a monster from beginning to end, there are characters who point that out. In an alternative universe where Eren is a regular kid that goes to school he comes to the conclusion that since there’s no great threat or danger in the world - that he would become it. It’s simply who he is. And there’s no arbitrary defence for any part of it.
@@Vivivofi You will be on childish if you believe that..No one is born a Murder The fact that you disregarded everything that I said proves you are jesting or paide no attention to The Series. I'm just going to assume that you're just jesting.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I don't know if it count at all, but one of my personal way to distinguish a Hero from an Anti-Hero is the way they handle their Inner Demons, a Hero wants to face them (and if the Inner Demons win, then the Hero becomes Tragic One), Anti-Hero, instead, learns how to live with them.
A version of a character archetype I enjoy, that I feel is often put under the umbrella of antihero, is characters that do good or bad completely dependent on how they feel in the moment, though still don't end up villians. Probably the biggest example being Deadpool, but some versions of Harley Quinn would also be an example.
Congrats on One million subscribers, watched loads of your videos and love you so much even though I'm aussie. truly one of the greats Your aussie mate
How dare you make Roy Mustang out to be good to only Hawkeye!?! He's the absolute best!!! And he's more than good to just Hawkeye. His care for his friends and subordinates is incredible. He is so caring... just has the wrong career path - so he's trying to fix it. Colonel Mustang deserves so much more respect than people give him 😭
Don't know man... I feel like Mustang is kinda overrated; Now don't get me wrong, he is a great Character, but I would had been much more satisfied if I had seen him resent what he has done in Ishval, like Hawkeye and especially, Major Armstrong... But, we never got that. Honestly, I can't say a single thing Scar did wrong (except Killing Winry's parents, but he was sought of out of his mind from PTSD) but he is treated much worse than Mustang.
@@yuvrajganguly what are you talking about?! He totally resents it. It's a recurring theme for him. He absolutely hates what he did during the war. But he has a plan to fix it, which, while flawed, is better than wallowing in self-pity. But you are correct. Scar gets unnecessary amounts of hate.
@@Nariasan I just wished to see that more in the forefront; like when I think about Major Armstrong, I remember that he withdrew from the line as he so much hated harming civilians, but for Roy, it kinda gets overshadowed by his ambitions, personality and scenes like the rage moment.... And hardly any Mustang fans mentions the atrocities he has committed
@@yuvrajganguly I'm a Mustang fan and I mention it all the time. It's actually why I'm a fan of his, because I feel Arakawa-sensei did a fantastic job with his character. Also, the amount of Royai fanfics that focus on it are numerous, too. You're mistaking Armstrong's discharge for PTSD as him withdrawing from the fight. He didn't withdraw at all - no consciously anyway. He was, by all accounts, dishonorably demoted for his inaction due to PTSD.
@@yuvrajgangulyUmm- scar tried to kill two teenage boys. The Elric brothers were like ten when his family was killed. They were completely innocent and he just decided to kill them multiple times.
Your "why are cities where they are" video gave me the kick to finally try out this worldbuilding thing a while back. I probably won't ever actually write the book, but you totally just made me realize the main character is an antihero...
Rorschach is probably my favorite anti-hero (from the movie). The scene where he shatters hit me like a ton of bricks, where Silk Spectre and Owlman are reminiscing in the dinner and she brings up a petty villain from their past and she wonders what happens to him and Owlman tells her Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft hit me as a tragic comedy. Plus, when he’s in prison. And whenever he refuses to compromise. Man, I know I have a run-on sentence, but Rorschach is so freaking tragic.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 He’s my favorite anti-hero because he’s incredibly complex, and he could have been a fantastic hero had the stars aligned differently ever so slightly. He became what he hated: a man with an uncontrollable urge. Right, wrong, whatever. I couldn’t care less what people who have never met me think of me. Have a blessed day.
Rorschach (at least in the comic from what I understand) was willing to defend the Comedian’s attempted assault of the first Silk Spectere as a “moral lapse”.
I think one of my favorite things is we basically have his character arc being starting as an anti-villain who overtime shifts over to anti-hero. Artemis was never going to be a Steve Rogers type of hero, but the amount of growth he goes through over the series is amazing and it's wonderful how he helps expand the worldview of his eventual friends as they expand his.
My favorite antihero is Gollum. He's literally got inner demons, and you see just a small glimpse of what he could be like when he's finally with someone who cares about him. When that trust is broken his character arc flips completely and he once again is consumed by the ring.
I think that a good anti hero story it's harder to tell than a hero or a villain. Great video, I watch every one of it, and it's the first time I comment on YT because it's sad that good content gets drowned because an algorithm.
Eric Draven from The Crow. Watch it every October 30th. There's something so compelling about the story of a soul that can't rest, not because he was brutally murdered, but because his fiancee was too, the night before their wedding. It's one of my favorite movies ever.
“[1] Pursuing something totally sympathetic but at the cost of everything; [2] Each individual step towards tragedy is understandable.” Aah so good. 👌 and you’re bang on about the “gravelly voice”, gritty for the sake of gritty etc. Also, is it just me or is alcoholism every author’s go-to manifestation of a character’s inner demons? (Not saying it’s not a real world problem, but it seems over-represented compared to many other forms of dysfunction.)
@@TooSweet353 You'd be surprised. Of the people I personally know, more of them dislike the show than like it (though it's mostly due to personal preferences rather than any perceived flaws in the storytelling) Even though I love the show and acknowledge that it's a masterpiece. I still think it's sometimes suffocatingly American in its storytelling, it's so dry, bleak and (mostly) unempathetic, much like its setting (it really doesn't make me wanna visit Albuquerque). There is this bleakness in its atmosphere that makes it hard to get through. And while brilliantly filmed end effective, it doesn't FEEL good to watch in the same way something like Dune does.
This just what I needed to help write my anti hero in my book! I've been struggling to make him... not cringe, but this helps me understand things I should try to make him less cringe.
I’m so proud of you that you made it to 1 million! 🎉🎉🎉 congratulations. It’s been such an amazing journey since the how to train your dragon days and I’m glad I’ve been along for the ride. 😊
I always find it weird when people talk the ending to the last of us and frame it as unexpected, jarring or morally grey. When the game came out people all over the web were declaring they couldn't believe what happened, and what Joel did. But then when I actually learned what happened I remember thinking, how could anyone imagine this story wrapping up in any other way?! Of course Joel was going to save Ellie. What would have been crazy is if didn't. If you spent all that time building that relationship and the he just let her die. I didn't understand why were people freaking out about this. It's also weird that people would consider saving her, wrong in anyway. Stopping the brutal murder of an innocent child? How abhorrent! Sure they are doing it to TRY and cure the cordyceps, but they explain not only is this not guaranteed, but it's not even the first time they have done this, and are still no closer to figuring it out than before. More likely than not Ellies death would be totally meaningless. If anything, in this situation, Joel is the Hero and the Fireflies are the anti-heroes who are doing the wrong thing for the right reason. It's been a while since I have seen the ending, but I don't even think Joel has to kill that many people or any at all. It is the players actions that determine how much of a bloodbath the scene becomes. Maybe not, but either way, I never saw this as a morally grey choice or a shocking outcome am always confused when it is described as such.
WHAT why did it take so long for youtube to tell me you posted this! heres a comment for the algorithm and also to show my appreciation for everything you do!
I always love your videos on writing and on characters. This is very helpful for me as I have a character who is starting to fall into an "antihero" way of life. So, thank you!
Walt is explicitly the villain of his own story. He's the protagonist, but he actively causes most of his own problems and problems for all other characters. I wouldn't call him an anti-hero
Agreed. Even though Walt and Tony Soprano are the flagship anti-heroes they're more villain protagonists. A better example of a anti-hero would be Jimmy McGill.
@@jpjordan90 he’s offered the money to pay for his cancer treatment and a well paying job from rich friends very early in the series. It was always about his ego
I want to thank you so much for this channel. For the past ten+ years my head has been full of characters and settings and jokes but by watching your shows i feel like I'm finally succeeding at the one thing I've never been able to do: stringing together a plot. Thank you!
I believe it would be beneficial to start using the term 'Anti-Villain' as well for the exact opposite, meaning someone who accomplishes evil things (or just things opposed to the goals of the protagonist), but for generally more heroic reasons or with more heroic methods. For example a general from the opposing force, that plays fair, honors agreements and respects the protagonists. Or someone defending a system they see as righteous and good, but that the protagonist sees as bad. In this vain, I would argue that Anakin develops into an anti-villain instead of an anti-hero, as he does pretty evil things, but for generally heroic reasons (defending his loved ones and the republic). Generally a lot of 'second in command'-type characters would fit this bill, when they are on the opposing team. Even Zuko fits in the beginning. I mean, his and sokkas motivation are very similar, really. But they are on different sides of the conflict. And it highlights another interesting aspect: When you see a character switch sides, it will usually happen in an switch from anti-villain to anti-hero or vice versa.
For me, an anti-villain would have to be in the villain team, but either trying to do good or struggling to. Like Zuko in the first season of ATLA. Generally, all the villains that later turn tail and join the allies or desert the evil side. Fire Emblem has a plethora of anti-villains.
Huh, I think I may be suffering from some kind of cultural dissonance. I always saw antiheroes who were essentially villains who are the protagonists or protagonist adjacent to the story. Meanwhile I treated antivillains as good guys who are treated as the antagonists.
OSP talk a lot about smoking/drinking as an antiheroic trait, and how it's become counter to what we think of traditionally heroic; where as in the 50's and 60's it was normal so it wasn't an antiheroic quality.
9 months late, but Casey Jones I think is my favorite antihero. If you look at him through a more realistic lens than a lighthearted cartoony one, he really exemplifies those traits you mentioned.
I have this character in one of my stories, who I feel like comes under this category BUT his is a more special case of being groomed by an evil man since childhood to do these bad things, and his arc is about him realizing this abuse, coming to terms with it and overcoming it and therefore finding out who he is BEHIND that 'bad person' the evil man made him become
Pausing after you bring up the anti-hero often slotting into the lancer role easily. Now here's an usual twist - what about fitting the anti-hero into the heart role instead? I mean, you see the self-destructive behaviors of Tony Stark, Lisbeth Salander - they're struggling with things. Now imagine a heart-strong character. Hyper empathy and sorely lacking the tools to cope with it. Is this the skeleton for an anti-hero as the Heart of a Five Man Band?
Tim, I love your videos. I appreciate your perspectives on writing and what has worked and what hasn't, and your ideas on the WHY they did or didn't work. I'm really glad I found your stuff and I'm hoping to read the copies of your books I have soon.
And now comment #3, BB Edition. Walter White is what I consider an antihero when excluding what other people seem to have settled on as a definition. He's very much a bad guy with good intentions as our PoV character, rather than a good guy with questionable motivations (which I consider just a flawed hero, not an antihero).
![On Writing: The Darkest Hour Trope [ Avatar | LOTR | Doctor Who ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c2S7zjfs0aU/mqdefault.jpg)
**heyo, this video is kinda dying and I'm not sure why, but any comments/shares/like help!
Why u didn't mention Eren :/
Edit: maybe bc it contains too much spoilers... understandable
@@foggyforest2625 Eren is a weird one. I don't think he really fit as an antihero in the first 2 thirds, just a standard hero, but then after, let's just say I'd call him more a villain.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe - Though I haven't finished AoT as of yet, I'm inclined to disagree. Even when Eren is objectively doing the right thing, even when his actions don't cause harm to anyone else and serves the greater good, at the core his actions are always motivated by his singular desire for vengeance. When he's not fighting, he's just waiting and preparing for the next battle, intent on destroying his enemy with extreme prejudice. Maybe his motivation isn't really challenged by the narrative at first, but it's always there, consuming his every waking and sleeping moment to the point that it's all he lives for, and he can't conceive of anything beyond it. At least that's my impression.
I swear the RUclips algorithm hates good content sometimes, this is one of my favorites of yours!
Serious question- does it help/show engagement if I just have the video on loop at all? I'll just leave it up if so, this vid does not deserve to die :(
I think I'd have to agree with Momo on "meow?" being the best antihero out there
Also wow, Graham the wizard, who likes cats (or is it Graham, the wizard who likes cats...?) sure has gone through quite the emotional arc in recent times
“Katara is motherly, Zuko misses his mom…”
*Points accusatorially at Freud*
“HE CAN’T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!”
Kid named Zutara
This must stop.
*Freud tries to speak*
NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT MOMMY/DADDY ISSUES
Zuko doesn't have mommy issues. He has daddy issues. And sister issues... He has a great uncle though.
@@davidmauriciogutierrezespi5244 Well, Freud did say "sometines a cigar is just a cigar".
"It's more important to tell a human story, than an anti-hero one."
OK 😊
Zuko doesn't just have mommy issues, he has daddy issues and sister issues, too. At certain points in the series, he even has uncle issues. Zuko doesn't just have mommy or daddy issues, he has 'whole dam family issues'.
He has the "growing up with psychological issues, in a family that has psychological issues, that doesn't acknowledge dealing with psychological issues" issues...
Here's the thing about issues;
When there are enough then it becomes volumes!
He also has great grandfather issues as well
there's this tumblr post i love that says something along the lines of 'daddy issues make you a people pleaser, mommy issues make you a sociopath' and someone reblogged it with a picture of zuko and azula and i have never forgotten it.
That's why he ends up with a group if friends that are like family 👍
The interesting thing about V, at least in the comic, is that he is a anarchist mirror to the fascist government. In fact, the chapter he is introduced is titled “The Villain” and that text is next to him in the panel. That is something the movie kind of missed on; V apologizes to Evey in the movie over what he did to her and claimed it was necessary, comic V never does. He’s a monster the state made him and knows he has no place in the world that people will create once he has torn down the system. I think the Wachowskis softening him a little wasn’t wrong, but felt like it wasn’t the point.
Interesting, did not know that. So kinda like the bounty hunter in firefly, in that show he even states there is no place in the world he seeks to create for monsters like him.
I have heard the comic is verrrrrry different!
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe “V For Vendetta” the movie broadly follows the plot of the comic, but the Wachowskis changed much of the setting and particularly the politics. Alan Moore was interested in Anarchism versus Fascism in the context of Thatcher’s UK, the Wachowskis were interested in Bush era War on Terror politics and how freedom can be surrendered for security. Also, the comic has much grubbier a world and has more characters suffering in it. That explores the theme.
But for V himself, it his hard to argue that Evey was anything other than his instrument to get revenge on the people who destroyed him and to be his replacement for when it becomes time to build a new society. The Wachowskis’ V is much more human in my view for lack of a better word.
@@RedDragon-og8wn had the exact same parallel in my mind reading that comment!
Also in the comics V doesn't make society better. If anything he turns a functioning fascist regime into a dysfunctional anarchy.
"A hero would sacrifice you to save the world but a villain would sacrifice the world to save you" Quite an underrated statement
Okay cool so now I know I'm an antihero. 🙃
I love watching Anakin's fall throughout the Clone Wars series. Every choice is understandable, even if they aren't the best choice.
For example, where he kills the terrorist threatening to blow up the ship. An objectively good thing to do in most stories as it saves lives and stops the villain. But in universe, it shows how Anakin does not hesitate at all to kill if it means saving people he cares about
It’s also a nice way to see his struggle with “the Jedi way.” We hear that term thrown around quite a lot, but Anakin never really buys into it. From a relationship perspective, we can absolutely understand why he’d think “screw the Jedi way,” and we can tell that Obi-Wan can empathize with that even if others do not; from the perspective of taking a life, though, we start to think that perhaps he’s being TOO lenient in his interpretation of the Jedi way, and even Obi-Wan is disturbed by this (case in point, the terrorist/traitor you mentioned). This comes packaged together with the Jedi’s role as generals and warriors in the Clone Wars (a role in which they will inevitably have to end lives… And if you as the reader acknowledge battle droids as sentient beings, things become very grim all of a sudden), because telling Anakin off for killing people so flippantly would seem kinda hypocritical at this point. It’s like Palpatine had this exact thing in mind as part of his plan with the Clone Wars, which is just incredible to think about.
We also see how the Jedi aren't equipped to lead in a war.
Their decisions and morals put the Clones in danger. But the Jedi are meant to preserve life; Krell is extreme example, why was the council Okay with him throwing away the lives of the clones?
Or in the Citadel. Everytime a clone died, the jedi winced and said something like
"We have to move! NOW!"
"We lost one."
But *spoiler* when master Piell dies. The jedi stop wrapp him in bandages and cremate him in the Jedi tradition.
Anakin says earlier in that episode with Tarkin.
"Sometimes the Jedi code stops us from going far enough to achieve victory."
@@TotalTirpitz tbf, when that last one died, they could afford to stop and cremate him; the mission was over, they weren’t being actively hounded anymore, no more urgency.
But yes, the Jedi did (usually) sacrifice clones almost as readily as the Separatists did droids, which really did not go well with their Jedi way
@@jordinagel1184 The chase stop for the cremation the Warden (forgotten his name) is still after them and the space battle is happening overhead.
Is a bit less urgency then when some of the clones die; that's fair.
And I imagine that hypocrisy didn't sit well with Anakin; whenever we see him he's doing everything he can to save the lives of his troops because of that teaching.
One of my favorites is also when Anakin straight up orders the clones to firing squad execute Asajj Ventress on Kamino. She almost ended the war by stealing the clone genome, and so he's basically just like "She's too much of a threat, it's time to end that threat."
He does it so casually too it's a bit chilling when you stop to think about it.
Anti heroes with inner demons need humanizing moments. Without those demons interfering with the plot, they turn into Mary Sues, but if they don't have those moments that turn them from tropes to people, they're literally just a lump of angst.
I can relate to the last bit
So Shadow the Hedgehog?
@@osirisatot19you don't understand Shadow
@@HaKilly Yes I do, he's baby's first edgelord.
@osirisatot19 So you judge worst iteration of character to whole character overall?
It's very in character that the Cat had no issues with the wizard beating the guy to death, but had enough when he took up drinking.
As OSP rightly put a while back, antiheroes are pretty difficult to get right without having them go either full hero or full villain. But hey, I guess that just makes them a good writing challenge 😊
Eren Jeager is the best anti hero
@@LuisSierra42 Eren is the best Eren ever written
I completely agree!!
Osp also misses why lots of peopel think the punisher is an antihero.
169 nice
I try never to think of my characters as Hero , Anti-hero, or a Villain, because it's very easy to start writing about "Tropes rather than people" as you so eloquently put it.
Though, if I had to pick a favorite anti-hero, it would probably be Butcher from the Boys. (the Show.)
I like your name
@@Aranoura In full honesty, I probably would have chosen another name if I had taken more time to think it out. This one doesn't really feel like it represents my personality very well.
Glad you like it though.
tbf Butcher is only so good because of Karl Urban. But yeah, I kept thinking of hi the entire video
One anti-hero that I've loved recently is Luthen from Andor. His speech in episode 10 really sets his character. He knows that he uses immoral, sometimes even 'bad' methods to fight the Empire. Luthen is fully aware of who and what he, willing to give up his personal peace and comfort so that the rest of the galaxy can get theirs.
Eh, I'd argue that he was more of an anti-villain. He was fighting against a legitimate government (democratically approved) that brought peace.
@@GoldenSunAlex Are real fascists' boots too dirty for you to lick?
@@TheSuperRatt *Rolls eyes* Just read the lore. The SW Galaxy is a shitty place, and things were better off for 99% of the galaxy under the empire, compared to the periods before and after.
@@GoldenSunAlex yes, things went great once they instituted slavery. military spending continued to skyrocket after war ended, and firing squads were sent to every protest
@@GoldenSunAlex Palpatine orchestrated both sides of a war so that the senate would give him emergency powers, which he continued to abuse until he had accumulated enough military power to declare himself emperor. This does not sound legitimate to me.
A comment to get lost in the sea: Merlin (BBC) may not have the best writing, BUT DEAR IF IT DOESN'T GO HARD ON THE THEMES. And when you talked about hero-to-anti-hero/villain & the tragedy involved in it, it just made me remember it. Morgana is an anti-hero who goes full villain and Merlin is a hero with the moral of an anti-hero. And if you watched the show, you would know what I am talking about!
(I just had to say it. Is so much fun to read-too-much into this show, because it lets you. Is a family show, but it lets you, since is also a tragedy.)
Yeah I always liked how Morgana's fall arc is just so inevitable too. You can morally follow her every step of the way and come to the conclusion you might do the same. Very compelling character.
It kills me watching the show knowing that nearly everything in the final season could be fixed if Merlin could bring himself to be nice to a desperately lonely kid who just wants some positive reinforcement
@@Ouvii
She was done for me when she genuinly believed to have claim to the throne on the basis of her heritage while denying Uther as her father at the same time. It was so ridiculous.
20:23 "Characters don't have to be likeable, they just need to be interesting". Thank you.
I write mostly Villain Protagonist stories, this is what I like and am satisfied with writing about. Sometimes they more on the grey side, sometimes they in the black and white universe, sometimes they pure 80', or just Chaos Champion in Warhammer 40k or Age of Sigmar. But I really try to make them interesting and matching the universe/theme I try to go with, whitout going to the side of anti-hero or "hero, but the badge is wrong" or "anti-hero at worst but everyone else is a psycho". They are villains, main character villains, they are not symphathethic nor likable, they will have humanising characteristics and I try and work really hard to make them interesting, have something that reader would go "Ok, I wonder what happens next?". Because I love fictional villains, wheter it's Cobra Commander, G1 Megatron, Skeletor, Hannibal Lecter, Lucius the Eternal, Doctor Doom, clan Tzimisce or comic book Thanos.
I'm also attempting to write a villain protagonist, but in such a way that the reader doesn't quite realize that the protagonist was a villain all along. Epistolary first person is my attempt to disguise it, since then the reader isn't just limited to the protagonist's thoughts but to what they write, but it's definitely a negative arc and definitely one that is going to cause a lot of chaos as people fight about whether the protagonist is an antihero who does what they think is right or a full blown villain on a mission.
Is your stuff available somewhere? I need more villain protagonists in my life.
Artemis Fowl was my whole childhood (also congrats on 1mil🎉)
If only some HollyWood producer decided to make a movie out of it
@@LuisSierra42 If only
@@LuisSierra42 Tim Burton, Christopher Nolan, maybe Del Toro? Or Peter Jackson perhaps
I never read Artemis Fowl and I have a question about it:Why is he named Artemis? I mean I am from India and there's a lot of men named after goddesses here but they usually have suffixes like 'servant' or 'foot' to make the name masculine but Artemis doesn't seem to have any like this. So... I am just a curious guy who wants to know why is such.
@@CaptainvonDore Well, yes, normally it's the same in western languages, and a lot of traditional names do have different suffixes based on gender, but Greek deities have never really been popular namesakes in western Europe or the English-speaking world, and since ancient Greek is also not a widely spoken language I suspect it's probably unlikely that those gendered naming conventions would've popped up (or stuck around) in relation to those particular names.
More notably though, there is actually a somewhat corny bit in the third book where the villain makes fun of Artemis by saying "isn't that a girl's name?" and then at the end when Artemis inevitably outsmarts him he explains that yes, it is the name of a female goddess, but she's also the goddess of the hunt and Artemis does think of himself as a sort of hunter (he genuinely says "I hunted you" to the guy, which is perhaps a bit over the top but it seemed cool to me when I was like 13).
Personally, I'd say Kratos is unironically a damn good anti-hero. This is especially present in the two most recent games, where in the former, he's cold to his son and to others, but gives life lessons to his sons. As compared, in the latter game, he becomes someone worth praise.
One of my favorite anti heroes, if he can be classified as such, is The Hound from GoT.
Same! I especially love his interactions with the Stark sisters
Agreed! When he covered Arya's eyes in the beginning to save her from seeing something traumatic, that showed a lot about his character
He goes from sympathetic villain to antihero, his whole job narratively for a long time is making Arya a worse person and showing her that her world isn't for heroes.
@@Kitty-nq6dc you mean neds beheading? that was another guy
@@vivvy_0 Na, when Robs body has his Wolfs head attached to it.
Kaz Brekker from "Six of Crows" is one of the best antiheroes I've read in recent years.
I love six of crows so much
One of my favorite anti-heros who you didn't mention is Amos Burton from The Expanse. He's a sociopath (or at least has sociopathic tendancies) and is a mix of the "tragic backstory" and "doing good things but taking it too far" groups. He can't really tell the difference between what's good and bad, but he's also aware of it. One of the most interesting things about him is that he actively tries to find an actual good person to follow so that he doesn't need to worry about making the wrong decisions. It's one of the very few examples of a sociopathic character that I know of actually being the good guy.
I smiled so wide when you held up the Artemis fowl books. That series really doesn't get the widespread love it deserves!
Who here is watching the Last of Us show!? I hope Deadpool and the Punisher forgive me for not bringing them up. Who is your favourite antihero???
~ Tim
RAD!
venom(not the most complex or interesting i just love him)and eren yeager
I think the Mandalorian counts as an antihero. Maybe he stretches the line on heroism, but in my book he is an antihero. he kinda reminds me of The Last of Us. a warrior played by Pedro Pascal, meets a child, who he then adopts and becomes a surrogate father for
ignacio varga
The show has taken me by surprise! It's doing so many things well.
Joel from The Last of Us. Definitely my all time favorite antihero. I'm watching the new show, and so far I really like Pedro Pascal's Joel as well.
Favorite Anti-hero: Guts from Berserk
phenomenal story, with Guts' arc bringing it all together. He goes from not knowing anything but violence to finding friends, a goal, and a reason to keep struggling
If you liked Breaking Bad, I’d love to see your thoughts on Better Call Saul. Both are so amazing and compliment each other so well.
Kid named Finger?
It would be great to see Jimmy cited in this video. Walter White and Jimmy are both great, almost archetypal examples of Anti-Heroes but are wildly different in almost every way
FINALLY some more HFM content, I've been praying for days like this
I'm going to add Garak from DS9 to your list of awesome anti-heroes. He has clear (and often noble) motivations and goals, but uses questionably moral means. Sometimes he challenges his closest friends and allies, but other times he inspires them. He clearly has a lot of inner demons about his past and new inner conflicts as he grows closer to specific individuals. He puts the cause before hurting them on more than one occassion. And when he does find someone he can fully relate to, he loses her. That hurt. In one of my favorite episodes we get to see the worst of who he was once and who he could be again if pushed to the extremes of his flaws. He is also incredibly witty and charismatic.
He is one of my favorite Star Trek characters because he is a very complicated, morally grey character who shows growth, but will never fully transition to a hero. This is especially interesting considering the show wants you to see the world through an optimistic lens.
I've just figured something out (someone prolly found it but I wanted to throw it out anyway)
The anti hero's torturous side is not what we care about, it's the human side that we do care about. The torturous side makes us appreciate the human side more by showing how broken someone is.
I have two personal favorite anti-heroes. First is Guts from Berserk, because he is not always an anti-hero and if anything, he doesn't want to be, but circumstances push him to be. Second would be Kratos from God of War, especially in the Norse Era. He is not a fully good person, and he wants to be better, but he doesn't know how. HIs growth from villain protagonist, to anti-hero, and to true hero was so satisfying to watch!
You mentioned a character treating different people very differently and I instantly had to think of Arcane's Silco for that matter. He's treating Jinx completely different than anyone else and while I don't see him in the Antihero category it still makes him one of the most interesting characters in any media imo. When it comes to Antiheroes I'm gonna name Captain Blocker from the movie Hostiles. He too treats different people incredibly differently, and he does have some arc. Also, this movie should be used as educational material for leaders because there is much gold to find there.
I consider Silco an anti-hero because he is fighting for a just cause (freedom from Piltover's oppression for his people) but does it in the wrong way (becoming the monster he fights). Vander, Silco's foil, also wants (or wanted) the same thing as Silco, and no one would question Vander being a hero. If Silco has the same motivation as the hero, he too is a hero, narratively speaking. But he is certainly not a paragon of morality, so I feel anti-hero is the most fitting title for him.
I completely agree that his love for Jinx made him one of the most interesting characters in any media. I could have watched an entire series of him and Jinx. Silco struggling to balance his war efforts, criminal enterprise, and being a good father to Jinx. Jinx struggling to overcome her trauma while also doing her best to be a good soldier in Silco's army and criminal enterprise, in part to make him proud, but also because she believes in the cause. If Jinx eventually came to believe Vander was right about the end not justifying the means, we could have some compelling tension between two characters that would normally be on each other's side absolutely and without question. How would Silco handle opposition he can never bring himself to harm, much less kill? How would Jinx handle the monster she helped create when she, too, can never harm or kill him? The team involved in Arcane's production are simply fantastic and have produced a season that is a work of art, but I really feel they missed a golden opportunity to take season 2 to even greater heights than is (likely) now possible.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 fair points, indeed! I've never quite thought of those characters in labels (yet) but your train of thought makes sense. Also, I'm really trying to keep my hopes up for season 2 and stay 100% spoiler free on the way. Going into season 1 completely blind was awesome. I really hope they keep going on the same path, namely with the graphics "just" being the outstanding tool of conveying a rich story that has such interesting characters. I'll miss Silco, personally. His spot regarding complexity and story depth is certainly hard to replace. Not to make it sound like the others had no depth - on the contrary. But he stood out even amonst THEM.
@@BadNessie I agree with all of this. Silco will be hard to replace, for sure, but the cast as a whole is so strong that I am sure they can pull off another epic season. I was worried about them being able to recapture the quality and depth of the first season for season 2 until I saw they pretty much flat out said, "You will get it when you get it, but it's coming." That tells me they are going to put in the same passion and effort they put into season 1, and we already know the team has what it takes to do great things. The wait is killing me, but I am happy to wait as many years as it takes to get season 1 level quality for another season.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 he isn't remotely an anti-hero. He is just a manipulative villain who happens to love the child he stole from her sister and groomed to be a murderous crazy person.
He's a piece of shit.
@@peaceandloveusa6656 I see him as an anti-villain. He wants Zaun to be advanced and independent but turned into a drug crazed ghetto, he cares for Jinx but also shields her from vital information like her sister's whereabouts, he's cruel and authoritarian but only because he was raised in a cruel and authoritarian world.
Worm plays this very well especially because you are in the antihero's head the whole story and while she acknowledges she isn't the best, she's really, really good about not thinking about it. One of the most striking moments being one of the "interlude" chapters from someone else's perspective and it's clear just how terrifying she is. It's abundantly clear if you stop and think about what any of the fights would actually look like but because the main character is so at ease with it, it doesn't really hit you until you see it through someone else.
Worm is one of the best depictions of an anti-hero I have ever read. She does so much bad, and even evil stuff, but she is genuinely convinced that doing so is for the best and thinks she is making the best choice she can. It's a very compelling narrative.
Yes this, everyone talk about Worm more please. It is especially good at how it develops the ideas of right and wrong.
I'm interested, but also imagine simply googling "worm book" will not narrow things down much. Who wrote it?
@@hughcaldwell1034 it's a web serial, written by Wildbow.
@@hughcaldwell1034 You can also look up 'parahumans' or 'wildbow' (the series and the author).
I adore the Artemis Fowl plug--especially since someone made a movie whose protagonist had a very similar name, but claim they didn't see why a kid's story should be about an anti-hero.
That said, Artemis is also a perfect example of an anti-hero with foils. Holly the cop from the morality view, but also Butler as the more experienced anti-hero just doing his job. Such a good series!
My favourite antihero has to be Wesley Wyndam-Pryce from Angel, because it’s not just a positive or negative arc, as we see him transition positively from a naive wannabe into a genuine hero, by becoming braver, more confident and more badass, but as he continues to grow in those qualities he starts blurring the line more and more often as we watch him progress negatively into a jaded antihero, which led to him being abandoned by those he was trying to save
Angel made the worst characters from Buffy (Angel and Wesley) into some of the best.
I thought Wesley was going to be comic relief, then before I even knew it he stole a child.
Excellent choice, some of the best character development in TV ever for Wesley.
I would never say he's ever a hero, as we saw through Giles and Wesley a part of what watchers do is make the hard choices so their slayers don't have to.He definitely fits that lancer role in the group.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Also cordy,not that cordy was awful,but she really is such a good character with growth while using her qualities she always had the social, her big mouth, her empathy , resourcefulness, being annoying even, and is such a good hero using those to help people and solvw problems.
Like she really is donr justice as strong female character that is flawed but she uses all that , for good. And her growth,but i love that they say she is fine as she is, she is grounded as disapointed lost in la. And she fits in the team as she too wants to help people, find her place, and purpose. Hell she probably has it the most together and sees angel needs her as that and that she can use her strong personality, for good.
Westley is my favorite character in Angel, and Angel is my favorite show of all time. His arc is beautiful and incredibly sad. Even when the story of Angel got bad, the characters were usually still very well written.
Not the Graham the Wizard story we deserve, but the one we need ✊
I believe that he can find his inner love for cat driving him again, he is interesting, i miss old graham, weep
There are a vast multitude of antiheroes to chose from, but I'm going to tentatively say my favourite is Homura Akemi from Madoka Magica. And actually, Kyoko Sakura from the same series too, notable given the different trajectories their arcs end up on.
Congrats on 1M subs man 🎉
Have you seen Hadestown? It is one of the best examples of an idiot plot/tragic hero I've ever seen. It's incredibly well written and the music is phenomenal!
Okay, this is weird, I was listening to the album just earlier today. I agree, absolutely phenomenal.
(Also there was a comment from someone who had previously thought that Hades' line "I conduct the electric city!" was "I can dance the electric shimmy!" which is hilarious.)
I think one of the consistent traits that I've seen in successful anti-heroes is that they are very competent. I'd be interested if there are any examples where that is not true.
Yeah they have to be in order to counter how they might be reluctant, or a barely functioning addict, or just trying really hard to make up for a mistake they made.
Really like the term "gritty fatigue." It's why I stopped watching Walking Dead pretty early and could barely finish the first season of True Detective.
I love the accidental thematics of the anti hero being one of the hardest archetypes to pin down firmly one way or the other.
My guy.. I just devour your videos. You create such insightful work. Thank you!
The last of us and the pair of anti-heros in Joel and Ellie are such difficult and wonderful characters. The adaption that is on at the moment is giving us some really good takes on the story and characters as well.
Love your work mate.
I appreciate all that you do on this channel. Thank you as always!
Eren from Attack on Titan is super interesting for many of the reasons you brought up.
He moved from Hero to Anti Hero to Villain over the course of the TV show.
I don't think the story was told perfectly but it's pretty good.
Eren actions were Wrong.. But He had Every Right To Protect His Nation.. The Majority of the world wanted his nation destroyed. Even when he's made himself the villain which has had his friends be labeled as Heroes... The Nation was Destroyed later.
Keep in Mind he was Brink of Destroying Humanity Is When everybody was beginning to regret Their Actions despite the fact that they refused to compromise earlier... even in the different timeline where he and Mikasa was a Couple, peace wasn't possible and the country was destroyed.
His actions were wrong. But He was Left With No Choice...and Worse He was Proven Right When His Nation was wipes out... majority of the world's kept on terrorizing his Nation and succeeded in destroying it even after he died..
@@elpopman2055 Nah, Eren did all that just cause he wanted to. He was born a murderer. He got the opportunity to murder as many people as he could and wanted to do that purely for its own sake, regardless of any of the specific circumstances surrounding his actions. It was entirely selfish and evil. Eren was a monster from beginning to end, there are characters who point that out. In an alternative universe where Eren is a regular kid that goes to school he comes to the conclusion that since there’s no great threat or danger in the world - that he would become it. It’s simply who he is. And there’s no arbitrary defence for any part of it.
@@Vivivofi You will be on childish if you believe that..No one is born a Murder The fact that you disregarded everything that I said proves you are jesting or paide no attention to The Series.
I'm just going to assume that you're just jesting.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I don't know if it count at all, but one of my personal way to distinguish a Hero from an Anti-Hero is the way they handle their Inner Demons, a Hero wants to face them (and if the Inner Demons win, then the Hero becomes Tragic One), Anti-Hero, instead, learns how to live with them.
Respect for how your content has consistently matured over time. Really enjoying your recent content.
CONGRATS ON 1 MIL SUBSCRIBERS YOU DESERVE 100 MIL!!!!
A version of a character archetype I enjoy, that I feel is often put under the umbrella of antihero, is characters that do good or bad completely dependent on how they feel in the moment, though still don't end up villians. Probably the biggest example being Deadpool, but some versions of Harley Quinn would also be an example.
0:16 FAVORITE MOMENT
Congrats on One million subscribers, watched loads of your videos and love you so much even though I'm aussie. truly one of the greats
Your aussie mate
How dare you make Roy Mustang out to be good to only Hawkeye!?! He's the absolute best!!! And he's more than good to just Hawkeye. His care for his friends and subordinates is incredible. He is so caring... just has the wrong career path - so he's trying to fix it.
Colonel Mustang deserves so much more respect than people give him 😭
Don't know man... I feel like Mustang is kinda overrated; Now don't get me wrong, he is a great Character, but I would had been much more satisfied if I had seen him resent what he has done in Ishval, like Hawkeye and especially, Major Armstrong... But, we never got that. Honestly, I can't say a single thing Scar did wrong (except Killing Winry's parents, but he was sought of out of his mind from PTSD) but he is treated much worse than Mustang.
@@yuvrajganguly what are you talking about?! He totally resents it. It's a recurring theme for him. He absolutely hates what he did during the war. But he has a plan to fix it, which, while flawed, is better than wallowing in self-pity.
But you are correct. Scar gets unnecessary amounts of hate.
@@Nariasan I just wished to see that more in the forefront; like when I think about Major Armstrong, I remember that he withdrew from the line as he so much hated harming civilians, but for Roy, it kinda gets overshadowed by his ambitions, personality and scenes like the rage moment.... And hardly any Mustang fans mentions the atrocities he has committed
@@yuvrajganguly I'm a Mustang fan and I mention it all the time. It's actually why I'm a fan of his, because I feel Arakawa-sensei did a fantastic job with his character. Also, the amount of Royai fanfics that focus on it are numerous, too. You're mistaking Armstrong's discharge for PTSD as him withdrawing from the fight. He didn't withdraw at all - no consciously anyway. He was, by all accounts, dishonorably demoted for his inaction due to PTSD.
@@yuvrajgangulyUmm- scar tried to kill two teenage boys. The Elric brothers were like ten when his family was killed. They were completely innocent and he just decided to kill them multiple times.
Your "why are cities where they are" video gave me the kick to finally try out this worldbuilding thing a while back. I probably won't ever actually write the book, but you totally just made me realize the main character is an antihero...
Rorschach is probably my favorite anti-hero (from the movie). The scene where he shatters hit me like a ton of bricks, where Silk Spectre and Owlman are reminiscing in the dinner and she brings up a petty villain from their past and she wonders what happens to him and Owlman tells her Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft hit me as a tragic comedy. Plus, when he’s in prison. And whenever he refuses to compromise. Man, I know I have a run-on sentence, but Rorschach is so freaking tragic.
Thank you👍👍
Alan Moore thinks you're a bad person.
Seriously, he said if you like Rorschach you're a bad person.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 He’s my favorite anti-hero because he’s incredibly complex, and he could have been a fantastic hero had the stars aligned differently ever so slightly. He became what he hated: a man with an uncontrollable urge. Right, wrong, whatever. I couldn’t care less what people who have never met me think of me. Have a blessed day.
@@williamwilson1222 I agree, I just thought it was funny.
Rorschach (at least in the comic from what I understand) was willing to defend the Comedian’s attempted assault of the first Silk Spectere as a “moral lapse”.
I really do wish they made an Artermis Fowl movies or tv show it would of been so good.
Yeah, I would have loved an Artemis Fowl movie adaptation. Shame it never happened.
They did, though...
(It wasn't good)
@Longshot97 No, they didn't, there is no Artemis Fowl movie.
@@longshot9757 Hahahahahahahahahah.
That was a fine jest, but please, there is no Artemis Fowl Movie Adaption
I think one of my favorite things is we basically have his character arc being starting as an anti-villain who overtime shifts over to anti-hero. Artemis was never going to be a Steve Rogers type of hero, but the amount of growth he goes through over the series is amazing and it's wonderful how he helps expand the worldview of his eventual friends as they expand his.
My favorite antihero is Gollum. He's literally got inner demons, and you see just a small glimpse of what he could be like when he's finally with someone who cares about him. When that trust is broken his character arc flips completely and he once again is consumed by the ring.
I think that a good anti hero story it's harder to tell than a hero or a villain. Great video, I watch every one of it, and it's the first time I comment on YT because it's sad that good content gets drowned because an algorithm.
Congrats on 1 million!! and Happy 2023🎊🎉
It's so funny that you went from TLOU2 to Full Metal Alchemist and played a clip of Lust since Lust shares a voice actor with Abby
Eric Draven from The Crow. Watch it every October 30th. There's something so compelling about the story of a soul that can't rest, not because he was brutally murdered, but because his fiancee was too, the night before their wedding. It's one of my favorite movies ever.
“[1] Pursuing something totally sympathetic but at the cost of everything; [2] Each individual step towards tragedy is understandable.”
Aah so good. 👌 and you’re bang on about the “gravelly voice”, gritty for the sake of gritty etc. Also, is it just me or is alcoholism every author’s go-to manifestation of a character’s inner demons? (Not saying it’s not a real world problem, but it seems over-represented compared to many other forms of dysfunction.)
Congratulations on hitting one million subscribers!!
Been watching for a year now. Love this format.
Congrats on 1 million subs!!!!
I told you you would like Breaking Bad. I told you so. I TOLD YOU SO.
Who wouldn't? In my opinion one of the greatest TV shows/series of all time.
This was the exact moment Tim became a Breaking Bad fan.
Bravo, Vince!
He needs to watch BCS now to get the whole story
me imagining a granny's voice xD
@@TooSweet353 You'd be surprised. Of the people I personally know, more of them dislike the show than like it (though it's mostly due to personal preferences rather than any perceived flaws in the storytelling) Even though I love the show and acknowledge that it's a masterpiece. I still think it's sometimes suffocatingly American in its storytelling, it's so dry, bleak and (mostly) unempathetic, much like its setting (it really doesn't make me wanna visit Albuquerque). There is this bleakness in its atmosphere that makes it hard to get through. And while brilliantly filmed end effective, it doesn't FEEL good to watch in the same way something like Dune does.
This just what I needed to help write my anti hero in my book! I've been struggling to make him... not cringe, but this helps me understand things I should try to make him less cringe.
This was the exact moment Tim became a Breaking Bad fan.
Bravo, Vince!
I’m so proud of you that you made it to 1 million! 🎉🎉🎉 congratulations. It’s been such an amazing journey since the how to train your dragon days and I’m glad I’ve been along for the ride. 😊
9:40 the chart leading to Levi is poetic
Yeah, i wonder why he didn't mention Eren in this video
Thank you for the awesome videos and books...you're a great resource for writers/creatives!
I always find it weird when people talk the ending to the last of us and frame it as unexpected, jarring or morally grey. When the game came out people all over the web were declaring they couldn't believe what happened, and what Joel did. But then when I actually learned what happened I remember thinking, how could anyone imagine this story wrapping up in any other way?! Of course Joel was going to save Ellie. What would have been crazy is if didn't. If you spent all that time building that relationship and the he just let her die. I didn't understand why were people freaking out about this. It's also weird that people would consider saving her, wrong in anyway. Stopping the brutal murder of an innocent child? How abhorrent! Sure they are doing it to TRY and cure the cordyceps, but they explain not only is this not guaranteed, but it's not even the first time they have done this, and are still no closer to figuring it out than before. More likely than not Ellies death would be totally meaningless. If anything, in this situation, Joel is the Hero and the Fireflies are the anti-heroes who are doing the wrong thing for the right reason. It's been a while since I have seen the ending, but I don't even think Joel has to kill that many people or any at all. It is the players actions that determine how much of a bloodbath the scene becomes. Maybe not, but either way, I never saw this as a morally grey choice or a shocking outcome am always confused when it is described as such.
Love this! The work you put into these videos is so thorough and greatly appreciated. Keep up the fantastic work!
Fun fact: the two characters in the opening skit? Both played by the same guy. *sigh* yet another great performance ignored by the Academy 😔
My mind is blown🤣
WHAT why did it take so long for youtube to tell me you posted this! heres a comment for the algorithm and also to show my appreciation for everything you do!
Wait you're telling me Taylor Swift did not come up with the concept of an anti-hero?
Lol I was also waiting for a mention.
😂
I always love your videos on writing and on characters. This is very helpful for me as I have a character who is starting to fall into an "antihero" way of life. So, thank you!
Walt is explicitly the villain of his own story. He's the protagonist, but he actively causes most of his own problems and problems for all other characters. I wouldn't call him an anti-hero
Agreed. Even though Walt and Tony Soprano are the flagship anti-heroes they're more villain protagonists.
A better example of a anti-hero would be Jimmy McGill.
He's an antihero because he is doing what he does (at first) to provide for his family. He falls into villainy because of his pride.
@@jpjordan90 he’s offered the money to pay for his cancer treatment and a well paying job from rich friends very early in the series. It was always about his ego
@@JamesRoyceDawson turning down help from friends doesn't make him a villain
@@jpjordan90 it does when your other option is cooking meth and endangering your family
I want to thank you so much for this channel. For the past ten+ years my head has been full of characters and settings and jokes but by watching your shows i feel like I'm finally succeeding at the one thing I've never been able to do: stringing together a plot. Thank you!
I believe it would be beneficial to start using the term 'Anti-Villain' as well for the exact opposite, meaning someone who accomplishes evil things (or just things opposed to the goals of the protagonist), but for generally more heroic reasons or with more heroic methods. For example a general from the opposing force, that plays fair, honors agreements and respects the protagonists. Or someone defending a system they see as righteous and good, but that the protagonist sees as bad.
In this vain, I would argue that Anakin develops into an anti-villain instead of an anti-hero, as he does pretty evil things, but for generally heroic reasons (defending his loved ones and the republic). Generally a lot of 'second in command'-type characters would fit this bill, when they are on the opposing team.
Even Zuko fits in the beginning. I mean, his and sokkas motivation are very similar, really. But they are on different sides of the conflict. And it highlights another interesting aspect: When you see a character switch sides, it will usually happen in an switch from anti-villain to anti-hero or vice versa.
For me, an anti-villain would have to be in the villain team, but either trying to do good or struggling to. Like Zuko in the first season of ATLA. Generally, all the villains that later turn tail and join the allies or desert the evil side. Fire Emblem has a plethora of anti-villains.
Oh welcome back from your break!! Great video like always :D
Huh, I think I may be suffering from some kind of cultural dissonance. I always saw antiheroes who were essentially villains who are the protagonists or protagonist adjacent to the story. Meanwhile I treated antivillains as good guys who are treated as the antagonists.
Congratulations on 1 mil, you deserve it
“Edgy” and “gritty” are so overdone… great video as always. I wish more mainstream cultural productions listened to the kind of advice you give.
Congrats on a million and loved the video. Here's one for the algorithm.
Holy shit the point you made about anti-heroes depicted as smokers is so true, right off the top of my head I can think of at least a handful!
OSP talk a lot about smoking/drinking as an antiheroic trait, and how it's become counter to what we think of traditionally heroic; where as in the 50's and 60's it was normal so it wasn't an antiheroic quality.
9 months late, but Casey Jones I think is my favorite antihero. If you look at him through a more realistic lens than a lighthearted cartoony one, he really exemplifies those traits you mentioned.
Not mentioning Eren as definitely the best anime anti-hero is basically a war crime
No- I’m sorry but there’s just so many amazing anti- heroes in anime. Though I’ll admit I haven’t watched or read ATOT.
Thanks for this thorough analysis! Your videos always have a way of motivating me to write.
Imagine useing Campfire to plot out a fanfic 🤣
I have this character in one of my stories, who I feel like comes under this category BUT his is a more special case of being groomed by an evil man since childhood to do these bad things, and his arc is about him realizing this abuse, coming to terms with it and overcoming it and therefore finding out who he is BEHIND that 'bad person' the evil man made him become
Yes, Taylor Swift, it IS exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero, but I regret nothing ✨
I love your On writing and On worldbuilding videos, they really help me as an aspiring writer.
Pausing after you bring up the anti-hero often slotting into the lancer role easily.
Now here's an usual twist - what about fitting the anti-hero into the heart role instead? I mean, you see the self-destructive behaviors of Tony Stark, Lisbeth Salander - they're struggling with things. Now imagine a heart-strong character. Hyper empathy and sorely lacking the tools to cope with it. Is this the skeleton for an anti-hero as the Heart of a Five Man Band?
Mr. Inbetween is an amazing example of anti hero story. Highly recommend it!
it was either Kaz Rowe or biz barclay who pointed out that most anti heroes in the vampire diaries mould all come from one person, Lord Byron.
Thank you so much for this! I have learned so much from you
Ah yes, Breaking Bad, the perfection
Tim, I love your videos. I appreciate your perspectives on writing and what has worked and what hasn't, and your ideas on the WHY they did or didn't work.
I'm really glad I found your stuff and I'm hoping to read the copies of your books I have soon.
And now comment #3, BB Edition. Walter White is what I consider an antihero when excluding what other people seem to have settled on as a definition. He's very much a bad guy with good intentions as our PoV character, rather than a good guy with questionable motivations (which I consider just a flawed hero, not an antihero).
Man, your editing has stepped up.
Very well done.
First for patreon privileges
lol
I love your videos in the morning, i'm sad i've run out the backlog