1961: NELSON in DUBLIN - Should he STAY or GO? | Tonight | Voice of the People | BBC Archive
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 мар 2024
- "O Connell, Parnell, Smith O'Brien, Nelson... Nelson? How did he get up there?"
Alan Whicker reports from Dublin, about Dubliners' ambivalent feelings towards one of the city's most famous - and incongruous - landmarks, Nelson's Pillar. What do people think should be done about this monument to a British hero, towering over the main thoroughfare of the capital of the Republic of Ireland?
He speaks with Noel Lemass - Fianna Fáil TD for Dublin South-West, Aldermann Frank Sherwin - Independent TD for Dublin North-Central, and Dublin City Councillor Joe Dowling, about the contentious statue.
Clip taken from Tonight, originally broadcast on BBC Television, 20 March, 1961.
You have now entered the BBC Archive, a time machine that will transport you back to the golden age of TV to educate, entertain and enlighten you with classic clips from the BBC vaults.
Make sure you subscribe so that you never miss a single stop on our amazing journey through the BBC Archive - ruclips.net/user/BBCArchive?...
I remember the joke at the time. What's the difference between Napolean and Nelson? Napoleon was Bonaparte and Nelson was blown apart.
😄🤣😂
Hehehe
Excellent 👍
Nelson's Pillar was mostly destroyed by an explosion in 1966 and the rest had to be demolished by the Irish Army.
now the Needle Spire is there
Bullshit it fell over in the Great Storm of 66 ;-)
i was born that day
I believe the official position is that it simply fell over
"Demolished by the Irish Army" as well as half of O Connell St.😂
This documentary probably did more to Nelson's Pillar's demise than anything else.
😂😂😂😂
He did! First Irish astronaut
Fun fact: His head is on display in Pearce Street Library,Dublin to this day!
Just like jebadiah Springfield. Nelson had to go but they should have left the pillar and put an Irish figure on the top of it. The spire is ironically pointless. I don’t know what they were thinking.
Whickers? 😅
@@jmo8934 they are Irish
@@robertwoodroffe123Who are?
The spire people
As a young kid, I climbed the stairs inside. Cost a tanner. I remember the time it was blown up. Very neat job. The army blew up the rest of it - and broke every window n the street. Everyone tried to get a piece of it to take home. Nice to see Whicker, too.
Thanks for this blast from the past.
It was said that they subcontracted the job to a French Revolutionary the reason they didn't break the windows is because they blew it up halfway down to avoid it happening
@@freebeerfordworkers sounds rightish. Pro demolition job. But there were enough homegrown talent to get it done so we may never know. As a kid it was just entertainment. The innocence. The army were really friendly to us.
Literally
A tenner. That would have been a bit steep at the time (boom boom).
@@norwegianzoundGood one.
A ‘tanner’ was slang for sixpence (6d) or half a shilling or 1/48th of £1. A tenner (£10) was a fortune, a weeks wages for some, at the time.
7:11 Whicker then went on to predict the Berlin Wall would last for 1000 years.
the Carpathian Mountains are definitely a Dividing Line.
It was blown up a few years later.
IT was blown up by the Army soon after, causing more damage than the IRA bomb.
Four years later 1966
Nelson was blown up in 1966 on the 50th Anniversary of the Easter Rising.
I remember we had a chunk of the granite pillar on the mantel piece, when the army demolished the stump it caused more damage than the IRA bomb, Students from the College of art took Nelsons head to the sculpture department of the College , from there it found its way to a pub in England and back again to a Museum in Dublin.
Have you any idea how big his head is. It must weigh a ton.
He came to Garden Suburb Junior School because he was a friend of one of our teachers and he spoke to us and then we very shyly asked him a few questions and I remember he was so kind.
My blessed mother and my uncle walked to the top of nelsons piller around 1964 when i was just a kid of 5 id say. il always remember it with a fondness even though it was oul nelson. Thanks for this clip of oul dublin
pillar
Down With This Sort Of Thing !
Are you a racist now father Ted 😉
@@algrant5293Go on will you not have a cup?
They say that you are a racist now father.....
😂@@cunninglinguist-hu1dz
Up close. ..... big , far away...........small (really small).
Good to see Alan interviewing his Irish brother.
Lol
Love that reply " your're trying to get me into a half-nelson" Fun sense of humour.
Parts of the pillar are in Kilkenny used as garden furniture now😂
They have enough of their own marble
Little gem this well done
His head is upstairs in the Pearce Street library as is.The key used by Bang Bang.
Alan Wicker - What a Giant of Presenting. Use to love watching these even when I was a nipper.
I remember seeing a wonderful picture of Robbie Keane's dad and his mate, both aged about 14, standing in front of the rubble!
It's funny how Dublin just looked like another British city in those days. It probably still does mind you. As was once stated by someone whose name escapes me now "we're probably more alike than anyone here (Ireland) would like to admit"
People engaging in the modern debate on statues could learn something from these men; eloquent and respectful, though firm in their beliefs and patriotism.
What? You do know it was blown up by the IRA.....
@@TurfShifterI never said we could learn something from the IRA. I said we could learn something from the men in the video. Happy to think again if you can prove that any were involved.
All the men interviewed realised that even though Nelson's statue was not their preference, they acknowledged his contribution in a very attractive and polite manner.
British patriotism lacks currency in an occupied land.
You are right to say it especially regards to the element of respect for the fact that Ireland, much to the toxic cancerous hatred of many Irish people today, these men speaking in the video acknowledge respectfully the English men who were part of the entire United Kingdom which Ireland was part of long before the events of 1916 Historical facts appear on the menus of nasty bitter people who chose only the courses that please them. A very embarrassing hallmark of many self congratulating Irish people today.
Love Alan Wickers voice and sauve style.... Very retro 1960's...
One in three RN at Trafalgar were Irish , according to surviving records.
1 in 4 were not apparently
But if even 4 out of 4 had been Irish, I'd still not want Nelson's mush looking down on us. To this day even in Belfast too, when an undesirable comes a cropper, we will say that ," He fell like Nelson".
And would they have been there if Ireland had been free at the time? Unlikely.
@@TurfShifter No absolutely , I take no pleasure in that fact , just a fact which many in Britain might prefer to forget.
@@jamesoneill2933 you mean many in Ireland choose to forget. The Irish were willing participants in the British forces and still are. Great soldiers.
Another century and a half? He got that wrong!
He wasn't expecting an explosion! I think if it had been left to politicians, /councillors or a vote it would probably still be there.
Whatever your opinion we have to make sure history good or bad isn't buried or hidden IMHO ofcourse
He sure did.
Why didn't they replace the statue with Collins in a passionate embrace with Dev.Could have kept the column.
.
Or James Joyce.
Too big and ugly, it had to go no matter what.
@@Jahson70it was fantastic looking, what are you on about?
Well DeValera was President at the time so unlikely. In fact most of the post 1916 era lot got very little given that the Civil War had left the country so divided.
Sadly imagination is not strong in our Irish government
He went!
There was an interview done with the guide for the column in 1966.. it was blown up a few months later😂😂😂
Pillar or column?
Couldn't the statue of Nelson not have been replaced with, say, a statue of St. Patrick or something (instead of being blown up)?
Seems a real waste; the pillar had a viewing platform that allowed people to look out over the city. Far nicer than the big metal spike that replaced it in my opinion.
No because the pillar was privately owned (not by the city) and the several attempts by members of the public, the local government and the state failed to alter the pillar because the owners had the right to keep it as it was. The only way it was ever going to go was by the IRA blowing it to kingdom come.
There was no recourse for changing out the statue and moving Nelson into a museum. If the owners had agreed to do that for a big sum of money the statue would still exist in one piece today.
I wish we would’ve at least have built a new column dedicated to someone from Irish History.
I think if I was to be generous, there is one connection between Nelson and Ireland, the fact that half of the British Navy back then was crewed by Irishmen (whether by force or not), so in a way the statue could be seen as celebrating Ireland's contribution to Nelson's victories. I'm surprised nobody brought that up in the clip. I think I prefer not having another statue at all there now. There is a famous Irish Admiral who helped the Independence movement from Spain in South America though, can't remember if it was Argentina or Columbia? or maybe neither. Might have been more suitable than Nelson.
As The Dubliners put it, "Nelson took a powder and he blew!"
'Up went Nelson in the morning' 😂😎🇮🇪
Did you know the Dublin column was actually taller than the one in London.. .😁👍
Not according to Wikipedia. 134 ft whereas the London one is 169 ft.
@@eric934Dublin may be on higher ground than London. Sea level wise
@@markirish7599 That doesn't mean it's taller though does it. Any more than a 5 ft man standing at the top of a 10 ft flight of stairs is taller than a 6 ft man standing at the bottom. You aren't really being serious though are you.
@@eric934 did I say it was
@@markirish7599 I'm glad my simple explanation made it easy for you to understand that the height of a structure doesn't include it's altitude above sea level 😂.
The IRA removed him fairly rapidly 😂😂
How would people feel if a statue appeared in London of a famous Austrian Mr H 😮
Ironically, worse have appeared on the fourth plinth in Trafalagar Square!
@@davidreed9671like what
We have a monument with a large scale bust of Karl Marx in Highgate Cemetery so a statue of the Fuhrer would only go to serve as an example of another person responsible for a system that propagates the wholesale murder and subjugation of millions, whether it be Marxism or fascism.
I was unaware Admiral Nelson was foreign, and an evil dictator. I was under the impression he was a heroic naval officer who defeated Napoleon's navy thereby saving Great Britain and Ireland from invasion and occupation by the French Empire. You win today's most idiotic Hitler comparison prize.
@@Norvik_-ug3ge
Admiral Nelson - born Hamlet England.
Dublin, the capital of Ireland.
It’s not an idiotic comparison, you are just dense.
The statue was known as the "one armed adulterer" .
So much for your man in Dublin
“I think we should accept the whole past of our nation and not pick and choose.”
Wise words, but yer man who wanted to put a plaque up was very fair and analytical.
Shoulda moved it to Craggy Isle
Remember over a quarter of Nelson's Jack Tars(sailors) at Trafalgar were Irish. The records are in Portsmouth. I always thought it was such a shame to destroy such a beautiful piece of architecture. The proper thing would be to simply just remove Nelson and replace him with St.Patrick or Brian Boru or some other Irish historical figure for example. It is part of Irish history. Look at the ugly piece of modern architecture that stands there now. Remember the Irish in terms of contributing to the establishment and expansion of the British Empire more than played their part. The Irish contributed soldiers, sailors, nurses, civil servants, labourers,government officials etc.
I was 12 years old when I went up on my own.
Out of a family of 8 I was the only one to have gone up
The IRA blew up Nelson's Pillar a few years after this documentary.
Good
They were obviously inspired by this video clip
History was not kind to Alan Whicker in this segment. No matter how much the spin was to keep Nelson's Pillar, Irish people had wanted to see it removed even since before independence. And the pillar would only be destroyed 5 years later. So much for lasting another 150 years.
But for all the stick the pillar gets now, it always had the viewing platform going for it. Many people have a problem with the Spire that replaced it. My problem is that it has no observation platform. It would have paid for itself many times over in the 21 years since it was built.
Alan did not foresee a terrorists around the corner ready to blow up poor old Nelson. I actually loved Nelson column as a child. It made O'Connell Street a capital.
@@maryrosed8475now say something intelligent for a change
The spin is all yours. Those who illegally destroyed it, and risked the lives of hundreds of Dubliners by doing so, were unrepresentative terrorist a*£eholes. In a free country, a supposed Republic, private property, which the Pillar was, is supposed to be sacrosanct. So it doesn't matter a damn what (you imagine) (some) people thought. It is none of their business. Also in a state that pretended to incorporate Protestants, and former unionists and Anglophiles of all persuasions, blowing up the Pillar and ensuring it was not rebuilt gave the lie to all that bs.
A roundabout? With seats for tired shoppers? Oh, Ireland! No wonder the country turned out how it did over the following decades.
They should replace it with a spire or something.
😂
😂😂👍🏻
It's interesting, isn't it, the clear and forthright manner of speech people back then used. No self-consciousness about putting forth an opinion, no sticking a metaphorical finger up to see which way the wind is blowing, just say what you think with clarity and articulation and trust to other fellow to do likewise in return. And no self-censorship.
Good observation.
It’s mad how ridiculous the BBC presenter portrayed the pillar. Everyone was against it, absolutely everyone but yet he ends the segment with a positive outlook on the future of the pillar.
Most people thought it was a crime to blow it up most people admired Nelson. Only for Nelson we all would have been taken over by the French.
@@laurielovett8849 are you Irish? I can tell you as an Irishman I wouldn’t like to be walking past Nelson every morning before work. It had no place here post independence. Clearly a lot more wanted it down
@@laurielovett8849and what’s wrong with the French? They got rid of their inbred royals long time ago, the French ppl own the electric company and pay a quarter what all Europe pays, they own the rights to English electricity. Soo all the English paying bills are paying them at 3x times the price to a French company, you’d have to be stupid to want to be English.
@@laurielovett8849The French were more sympathetic to the Irish cause and aided in our rebellion in 1798 so the Irish wouldve most likely have been treated better under the French than under the British and the Protestant ascendency established in Ireland
@@callu947💯 agree
pity the blew the whole thing. Should have kept the pillar and replaced the statue with Collins.
What an eyesore, the boys sorted it out 😂
The pillar itself was grand.Should have just removed Nelson from the top.
The Pillar was lovely, a real icon for Dublin. Shame.
Nonsense. It was a lot better than the spire.
@@Irishman727FACT. Pearse should be up there. What a pity.
Queen Victoria's Monument was removed from out side the Bank of lreland in 1937 and shiped to Sydney she still stands today
Odd how the Aussies don't object to such things.
@@sandgrownun66 They bought it after all they've got a state named after
@@freebeerfordworkers Didn't they have one already?
@@sandgrownun66 I'm sure they have several but they probably wanted one for somewhere else
She deported many an Irishman to Australia and it was only fitting Ireland did the same to her.
If they were going to stick a British hero on a pillar in Dublin, I'd have thought The Duke of Wellington would have been the obvious choice, at least he'd been born there.
Why's that fellow from Dublin corporation stood in such an uncomfortable way?
He just came off Nelson’s column.
@@mrlotusmic😂
He's a civil servant. That's the only way they know how.
He lost his head a few years later
So who was the "other foreigner" he mentions at the end?
himself
Apparently they did a piece about Mountbatten years later and the answer was………….
What?
@@sandgrownun66 they didn’t want him either
we should have had a referendum
Up went Nelson
The epitamy of "That didn't age well"
Up went Nelson.....dah-dee-dah-dee-dah
I am watching this looking at how the St has changed
The two bespectacled "gentlemen" at the beginning look like brothers 🙂
They could have removed Nelson and kept the column perhaps with Michael Collins on top instead
Or Bobby Sands perhaps.
Could have had Michael Collins posing with the British guns he turned on his fellow Irishmen
@@gerryryancould have had him telling ejits like you to wssshht.
Great idea but your a little late
During 1916, the English used the Helga gunboat to fire shells into O’Connells Street. They used Nelson’s Pillar as a guide. While the GPO garrison considered blowing it up, the polite niceties of the day was that it would anger the public . The poets among them really had their priorities arseways in terms of military ideas. But then , they also used a bakery as a garrison . Not the smartest of ideas . Remarkable that the place didn’t blow up
Jiminy Cricket needs a statue
Glad it went. Nothing to do with Ireland and had no place in Dublin. I don't agree with how it came down though as it should have been through the democratic process.
It could have been moved to England, rather than destroying it.
It was built by the Loyal Corporation of Dublin to commemorate the notable part Irish sailors played in Nelson's victories. People didn't mind commemorating British victories Irish had participated in until the IRA started murdering people who did in the 1920s.
youtube Armistice Day Dublin 1925
At least a better sight than the spire. The column itself was a lovely classical design we could have put an Irish figure on it instead.
I think a lot did mind. That’s why the rebellion started.
Those scummy black and tans didn`t help matters!@@freebeerfordworkers
Ironically Nelson looks as if he's Standing on an Army / RAC Compound in Northern Ireland from the 70s / 80s..
First Irish Astronaut 🫡
Colonial rule was terrible
now you can have one of mo himself, enjoy dublin 👍👍
It went alright
Now there is a big spike instead
It went.
Its a shame they didn't make a gift of it to the people of Norfolk
No, they thought they'd destroy it, rather than make the gesture of a gift.
@@sandgrownun66"They"? You mean "the IRA"? Or do all Irish people look the same to you? 🙄
@@tommymurphy459 Dunno. What are even talking about? Whoever was involved in its destruction, I would suggest.
Here's a little nugget of information, you obviously aren't aware of, in the form of a question and an answer.
_Did people in Ireland support the IRA? “Do some of the Citizens of the Irish Republic support the methods of the IRA”, would be a far more accurate question. During the troubles from 1969 to 1996 support for Sinn Féin their political wing was always stayed within the 1 to 5% range. So 95% were not supportive of the Republican movement as a whole."_
You're welcome. Top of the morning to you.
@sandgrownun66 the support for the IRA in Ireland is not as clear cut or anything near it as you'd imply here.
Sure you'll find it if you go looking hard for it, but you'll have to look deeply.
As the man in the middle segment says it was to be peaceably removed with care and gifted back to England. That would have been the majority view at the time.
The IRA removed that option and much else since.
@@jumblestiltskin1365 "the support for the IRA in Ireland is not as clear cut or anything near it as you'd imply here." I was just stating facts, as I always do. There was somebody doing a lot of research to reach the conclusions they did. I'll go with them. Their knowledge is infinitely greater than mine.
It didn't even cost 15000 lbs of dynamite to have removed in the end!
Just don't go up and spit plumstones down on everyone.
Can,t change history
I wonder what the local opinion was when it was originally installed?
Irish people's opinions were not a consideration, they were seen only as cannon fodder for Britain.
It was mostly Anglican city at the time due to centuries of colonisation and tight control - and Irish who converted.
It was built by the Loyal Corporation of Dublin to commemorate the part Irish sailors had played in Nelson's victories. There were many objections at the time mainly aesthetic
@@freebeerfordworkers That's kinda like ,me, building a statue of ,me, in your living room and saying it's a tribute to 'you'.
@@jamesoneill2933 More like having a photograph of a great friend you knew years back and thinking yes it reminds me of the good old days together
WB Yeats wanted Nelson to stay...No surprises there.
And you never bothered to listen to the rest of what he said, no surprise there
5 years later he was gone
Half of Nelson's sailors were Irishmen.
Up to the Irish, but many Irish served in the royal navy
And still do! I was one of several in my small intake, I spent 23 years in Navy retiring from it 2 years ago.
About 40% of the British Army was Irish at one point !
Britain's greatest generals were Irish or of Irish extraction.
The weird thing is I actually remember seeing this BBC newsreel feature in an RTÉ documentary about Nelson’s Pillar (can’t remember the name of it). It was shown in my class at school and this was not long after The Spire was built (the bland-looking landmark that had replaced it).
How well spoken we all used to be.
Ya if you were in high society..........
I suppose today he'd be wearing a grubby tracksuit
@@kingeatking true.
@@neilrmartin1984 😂
Init!
Well.. not a great sound off for the reporter 😂
My Dad was upset when the Pillar went. It was part of the Dublin landmark. Of course nobody was a fan of Nelson but the column was part of Dublin.
🍺☘️
what a lot of awful comments we should have replaced the figure, with james joyce or oconnell and left the pillar after all anyone who climed up would tell you the view was breathtaking
Dublin has never replaced that view
The spire is an eyesore
Don’t cry so hard the colonised uncle toms they call dubs still have the monument at Stephens green to go and cry for
"our man in dublin" lol
Couldve repurposed for another statue
Nelson was an apologist for slavery.
Good for him
Jack Charlton should take Nelson's place in Dublin.
You could build a column out of all his uncashed cheques
Or Padraig Pearse or Michael Collins. Pearse Pillar or Collins Pillar has a nice ring to it. 👌
@@gerryryan The money was resting in his account.
Or Andy Farrell , another Englishman 🤪
Amongst the crew of HMS Victory at the Battle of Trafalgar 63 were Irish.
Out of a crew of 850.
63 people for, Empire.
@@Lala-kc2fw No, just fighting Napoleon’s domination of Europe..
@@eric934 and 3 French
@@anthonyferris8912 I'm Irish. I like napoleon...
Wolfe had a chat with him.
Those 63, were for, Empire just like those in the great war.
They weren't Irish. They British.
15,000 pounds? yes, sir alan ...of gelignite
At Least the Spire has a point ….. 😉
I don't see it!
@@davidreed9671did you miss the joke?
which genius put it there in the first place?
The propleof Dublin wanted a statue to his memory he was a very very brave man. We could do with more of them 300 of his crew were Irishmen he was very well thought of.
@@laurielovett8849that’s funny so why did the people of Dublin blow it up? Brits put it up Irish took it down. Don’t speak for us. Pretty clear how we feel about the British butchers
@@laurielovett8849lmao is that why they want home gone? Because he was very well thought of?
Nelson took a powder, and he blew on the 8th March 1966
Early culture wars. Statue arguments are clearly not new
And now you walk O Connell street you barely see an Irish person. Only hoards of Afghanis and Sub Saharans.
Maybe if it had been Wellington at least, the story might have been different. The Duke of Boots actually being Irish by birth.
No servant of the empire is Irish
@@Stalin_Did_Nothing_Wrong I mean that’s just an opinion…
Factually he was Irish, but also and predominantly British
He despised Ireland.
@@paulohagan3309 how so? Remember he was actually pretty instrumental in the passing of Catholic Emancipation
@@mypradasatthecleanerss He had to do that because of the pressure built up in Ireland by O'Connell and the Young Ireland Movement.
There was also a fear that if Emancipation had not come, there might well be another rebellion. The memory of that of the United Irishmen along with the worry of France using Ireland to invade was still fresh in the British Government's minds.
It is said that the exact moment that O'Connell Street and Dublin city centre began to go downhill can be traced to the blowing up of the Pillar on March 8 1966.
They could have dropped him at least in a vat of 'Jamesons' ?
Am I the only person who saw the piece as another BBC condescending piss take? These old records are priceless and give great insight into the attitudes of the British towards us Irish back then.