5:00 The funny part is, the things you mentioned, Utah- sorry, oMnIrApToR *used* to have. Two things would occur if you missed a pounce. 1. If you missed, you missed, and you would have a recovery time of around 1.5s before able to move again, not to mention an actual cooldown on pouncing (albeit not a long one). 2. If you hit an object, you would thunk against it, yelp and go flying before sent on your back as though you were just charged, now having a much longer recovery animation of around 2-2.5s. If grappling is going to be this strong, it DESPERATELY needs counterplay and more effort put into successfully pinning a target beyond just "spam pounce and you win". Additionally, let the pinned dinosaur buck already, do you know how frustrating it is to be torn apart in seconds on creatures potentially taking 5+ hours to grow while this group can grow themselves in about an hour or less, and you not being able to do ANYTHING while pinned down? Reimplement the missed pounce punishments.
I'll admit this is basically similar to POT's main update issue with how pounced raptors cannot be damaged in anyway by the player being grabbed; basically a death sentence for solo players if they encounter a raptor pack
@@keikusa_allos are way too big (and small) to hunt rex effectively even in a group They're too big to dodge and weave effectively, but small enough to where the rex grabbing them still means instant death most likely
@MIApor not from a single one, of course not. And while an entire pack probably wouldn't be able to trigger the animation that would still be an issue I imagine. But then again it's exactly why grapple should be used in packs
i love when people just suggest fixes to pounce to pin that used to be actual mechanics, like missing a pounce causing your utah to have to recover, most recommended fixes used to be in the game (which will show you how poorly thought out omni changes were
Most of omniraptors updates(Except for bug fixes) were given to it because of bad players demanding it to compensate for there lack of skill. Form the instant pounce recovery, to this.
@@alphatrex612 So let's just give one of the fastest and most agile carnivores the ability to basically one shot anything it jumps at! Surely that's balanced!
In my opinion I think its fine for omnis not to be stunned before their grapple got added, BUT now that it is added it should be re added due to how strong the grapple is.
Apparently they nerfed it with the most recent horde test patch that just dropped, but bumped Dibble up to 3 damn tons so now it can knock over full grown Stegos. It's around 1 ton estimated in real life, it came to the test server at 1.5, got increased to 2 and now 3. This hordetest is one thing after another.
does the weight change at least make it more balanced? I don't mind if it's not super realistic, I mean look what they did with beipi's design and niche and imo it's all the better for it.
@@diamondback7719 Well there were already a few saying it's too strong, 3 tons is not only inaccurate, not only unbalanced but it's making the Styracosaurus a bit redundant
Knowing this, the Cera weight nerf compared to Legacy (2250kg in Legacy, 1300kg in Evrima) is even more egregious. If they are willing to bump Diablo up to 3 tons, why not give Cera extra 200kg so it can stand up to other animals bothering it lol.
@@predalienplush780 Diablos are ment to be able to stand against allos. We now at the point when we get a new tier dinos that are not suppused to be balanced to the lower tiers ones (carnos, dilos, etc), when trike and rex is out its gonna be another tier up. It's not about balance and never will be.
Some probably do, and quite often, but it's not like they can make a difference at their scale, not everyone is given to have their word to say on what's going to be added in the game or not
@@okaeli2473 Yeah, you're def right about how the average isle dev has very little chance in being able to input their own ideas against the likes of certain higher ups on the team
Someone pointed out to the devs that a solo omni can grapple a fully grown carno and the reply they got was “so?” So I mean the devs don’t really show any intention on fixing it :L
So, how to fix grapple, even as a utah fan myself i can see that it is a little too good. So heres my idea. 1. Readd the stun for missing a pounce. It makes pouncing in general a lot more risky and rewarding to pull off. 2. The grappled enemy should only be grappled under specific circumstances. 3. Circumstance 1: The grappled player has no stamina left. 4. Circumstance 2: The combined weight of the raptors is half or over the weight of the enemy. E.g. it would take 2 omnitahs to grapple a fully grown carno. 5. While grappling, an omnitahs stamina drains much faster unless the target is smaller than it is, in which case the omnitah drains the same amount of stamina as pouncing. This is to prevent lon-term grappling. 6. Grappling should not be instantaneous unless 1: The grappled player has no stamina. 2: The grappled player is smaller than the grappler. Or 3: The combined weight of grapplers is greater than your weight. 7. The stages of grappling should go from normally being pounced (when it is under half your weight), to losing stamina while walking and being unable to sprint (first stage when combined grappler weight is half or over half your weight), and then after around half a minute you become unable to move. (If the omnitahs disengage the grapple the effect resets.) 8. The more omnitahs you have on a creature, the shorter the time is to ground the opponent. 9. Increase amount of omnitahs that can simultaneously grapple a creature. Anything under 450kg gets pinned instantly. A 450kg-900kg animal can have maximum of 2 raptors on it. 900-1800kg can have 3, 1800-3600 4, 3600-7200 5, and 7200-14400kg can have 6 simultaneously grappling omnitahs on it. This means it is impossible to insta-grapple a stego with stamina, because that would just be broken. Hope that this idea gives you the motivation for someone on the islecord to see this and put it in the suggestions page. (Im not on islecord as i will probably get banned)
Grappling scales with stamina as well. So even an Omni can pin down a decently exhausted Diablo alone, which makes sense. But the scaling definitely needs balancing which is why it is still a W.I.P mechanic.
You think there could be some smaller dinosaur that could have either a mutation or a starting feature where it has thick skin and can wriggle out of being pinned, like a honey badger does in real life?
Yeah, I had suggestion that grappling will only work to animal with stamina bellow 30%, each 500 weight target had will need extra raptor to grappling it, or else it will just do regular bite damage
@@0996-l7y I was certain that's how it's going to work. 30% stamina at max, maybe even 20%. And it can't be too large of a creature. Imagine 4 omnis pinning a full-grown shant just because it has low stam... Ridiculous. I am appalled at how they implemented it. It's too much even for testing purposes.
The idea of slowing down before thebpin and then a struggle one pinned is definitely good ideas. As there is certainly still things that need to be improved wih this mechanic.
PoT has now a similar pounce disaster. While you are getting pounced you can NOT longer do damage to the pouncer anymore. Before that you could bite to the side to hit the pouncer
@@xamminJammin come to think of it, should every carnivore have a finisher move of some kind? Like someone succumbing to dilo or troodon's venom to the point of collapse, and then they just eat it alive as a sort of group-finisher.
The devs say they make these changes maxed and crazy for "feedback". How is that helpful? Is getting murdered left and right by constant bs going to provide any good feedback about new mechanics? Not at all
Yeah I call bullshit I am pretty sure that devs are adding these mechanics the way that they want it to be and when people rightfully complain and get angry they attempt to gaslight by saying that it was maxed and it was intentional even tho it does not make no sense
I mean kinda 🤷♀️ If there goal is actually to listen to the feedback that’s being given, then seeing how far they can push a mechanic and seeing if it needs to be toned down or not is in theory helpful for the balance of said mechanic so they can gauge how much it needs to be toned down n stuff
I disagree, this is hordetesting people are warned that this was for testing purposes, if this was in the main branch, your point would be valid, but this isn’t
@@LostSomeHope It's terribly unfortunate, and it seems that everyone is just ignoring the big warning on the main screen when they launch the game. More likely though they are just frustrated and can't accept that the game they enjoy isn't finished so bash the dev team it is.
It's not a disaster yet. The update is only on the horde test. It's not really fair to call it a disaster now. Hopefully it gets nerfed before it releases.
@@MIAporKeep in mind that videos are prerecorded. So this could've and most likely been made before the patch is frickin obvious doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
3:50 to 3:58 I feel like this is what grapple should be used for. A sort of Hail Mary to save yourself and or other packmates when you're not pinning an easy smaller kill. But it shouldn't be able to be used as inconsequentially as it seems it is now. For example, a utah with close to max stam getting to grapple could maybe atomize their stam a bit close to half before draining more accutately. Whereas if you have low or half stam, you wont be able to grapple at all. Forcing packmates to grapple more sparingly. Hopefully grappling will have a separate button to commit to while pouncing- most likely using left click once whilst commiting to right clicking.
They nerfed it back then, and people cried about it, they buffed it, and people cried about it. There are omni mains who think grapple is a good thing, but not enough XD Hard to balance anything with these mixed responses.
Not so long ago it was in a state where even omni tubers were creating videos on how the playable is unplayable. It is constantly going up and down so reactions like this do not make any sense.
@@Bleghspread Utha/Omni has never been in a bad state ever. They have always been the dominant dino in their weight class and whatever is in a higher weight they have the mobility and stackable DOT to duel. The only time Utha had competition was when Pachy was at its strongest, and even then it was mostly a skill matchup. I been saying this for litteral years and it is even more true when they just keep giving them mechanic after mechanic without nerfing their base mobility.
tbh i have an idea of what the Grapple should look like: _minimal of 3 omnis -prey have to be on 20% stam The omnis will have to pounce on each direction, left, right and back, if the prey kept losing it's stam it will be pinned (20% stam for a balance so that the dino can defend himself and not be a finish move) The more omnis pounced will require way less of the prey to be pinned
Even as the guy who’s somewhat known to solo things as omni, there’s absolutely no way a singular omni should be able to pin something that’s larger than said omni. Like you said it’s a *coordinated* group effort, not a brainless kill button like deino lunge. I have no idea and I’m genuinely concerned how this got past QA, regardless if hoardtesting is a testing platform or not
Pouncing already has plenty of risk. If a pack isn’t coordinating correctly they pin each other and are stunned long enough for an enemy to kill one or both raptors. In addition missed pounces take stam. Considering it takes 50% for a raptor to deal around 440 damage, every bit of stam used before latching is detrimental to a raptors damage output. Consider that they also need this stam to actually run away and pounce is very much already balanced (not considering any pinning). Lastly; the environment is a natural counter to pounce. They can’t just stay on you and Ggs. They have to dismount before you walk into a rock, wall, tree, or decide to turn them to a cliff edge or body of croc filled water.
pounce and bucking need a massive, MASSIVE overhaul. I don't like grapple not even conceptually it's too oppressive in my opinion. the devs need to focus on fixing their current broken mechanics before adding more broken mechanics.
The fact that Omni's did have a punishable pounce led to them basically getting killed instantly in fights. You could have pounced at the perfect time and server lag just got you killed. And Latency is always present in the isle. Having a high skill ceiling/teamwork based playable be simply unusable due to ever present server lag is a big pill to swallow and likely one of the reasons they removed the 2-4 second recovery animation from a missed pounce. IF you want to reduce pounce spam, giving it an increased stam cost to initiate could be one way of doing it. Or giving it a brief 2-3 second window where they can't pounce again, but aren't locked in place is another. Or both. Omni is a pack hunter generally going up against targets larger than itself. Its almost never going to kill that target through raw damage alone, which is why its pounce is a bleeder. They wear down the target overtime. If an omni misses a pounce and is locked in place to recover, most targets they are fighting can either one tap them, or seriously injure them in one or two hits, taking them out of the fight completely if they survive. And numbers is the biggest advantage an omni has. Loosing a member every failed pounce is a completely flawed strategy for a team based animal. That being said, grapple needs to be fixed. I would personally think that going by current hp is a completely flawed Idea. The animals hp total, the "weight" value, is much better. If you have an animal that weighs twice as much as omni, hurt or not, its likely not able to be pinned by a single omni unless its completely out of stamina and exhausted. Thats the only way it makes sense. Needing to have enough omnis to "outweigh" the target should be the primarily prerequisite. Only so many spaces on the animal can be pounced on, and if they still outweigh the pack, they shouldn't be able to pin it down. Stamina is basically the only wild card in that equation that could determine if an animal that would normally resist being pinned gets pinned because its too exhausted to fight back. Giving the animal the ability to fight back and deal damage once its pinned defeats the purpose of a pin. Every animal in the game can buck omni's off of them. And leaves the omnis completely exposed to get whalloped on as the punishment for staying latched on to long. If they manage to pin down an animal, yet still are able to get hit and potentially die in one or two hits, its not a rewarding playstyle because even then with perfect team work you can still lose multiple pack members per hunt. And the isle already has major issues with things killing other things just because they can. Adding more bodies to the mix doesn't help. Dibble's roll for example, should only be able to be triggered if it hasn't been pinned yet. If you have multiple omnis on you and you notice you are getting weighed down, using the roll to force the omnis off will reset all their grapple progress as well as deal some damage. Thats a fine mechanic if it has a healthy stam cost to use. Cause it starts the raptors over, and the damage dealt may force them to reconsider the attack. Without outright being a no u easy reversal to omnis entire kit. And if they can bait you to roll, they are eating your stam, which is good for them.
How long ago did this change happen? Was it very recent? Because if so, it's very weird that both The Isle and Path of Titans implemented a hated change to Pounce mechanics at the same time.
I mean the way I see it is make a requirement of raptors needed to pin something and give the pinned player a chance to buck off raptors after being pinned, and limiting grappling to a certain amount of stam like 50-25% rather than letting you hold it the entire time. So for example it could take 2-3 raptors to pin anything from a pachy-dilo sized, 3-4 from cera to teno sized, 4-5 carno and dibble, and like 6 for stego and future added dinos. And grapple could be limited for people who are adult raptors and not let juvis or sub adults be able to pin at all. And one last thing, limit it to grouped up raptors so mega packs are both discouraged a bit and not crazy op.
*taps* PoT did this even worse. Now you can't hurt the dinosaur that pounced you. Only buck continuously in hopes they get off of you for the next one to jump on.
I think there shouldn't be a cool down on pounces but the more you use it within a certain time the more likely you are to mess it up and slip over or fall, allowing the prey to fight back
"This is a group-based animal. It shouldnt be dangerous when alone." Well whilst I do see what you meant I must partly disagree. Ofc raptors are meant to be packhunters that use coordinated strategies to down bigger prey. To say that a lonely raptor shouldnt at all be dangerous is the part where I disagree. Dont get me wrong I am not saying a single raptor should be able to easily down a much bigger enemy but it definitely should still be able to try and maybe down a younger animal which are easier. Whilst I see that you are right with the pounce being an issue since it has no punish to it, I would more say that it would be better for the pounce to just get a cooldown. Missing it should not immediately let you be open for an attack but rather using it in the wrong moment like for ex from the front instead of back or flank. The punish with missing it alone already would be wasted stamina as stamina now more than ever is a ressource to carefully be managed. So making pounce less spammable by giving it a cd would seal the deal in my opinion. But yea... hordetest escalated hardcore when they dropped this disproportionate nonsense :D
On the pounce, an easy fix instead of there being a whole animation of the raptor flopping around after missing a pounce, there could just be a massive speed delay, after the raptor lands after it’s missed pounce. Obviously, I’m not a dinosaur game nerd so if this doesn’t sound like a good idea Womp womp
Perhaps if they made these types of attack more like the kill animations PoT teased years ago, in other words, making it health based so if the dino is at full health the you anx your pack can only do normal pounces but once the prey animal is pretty much on deaths door, they can then seal the deal with the grapple because either way, that prey animal is not getting away from the pack and will die regardless of whether its pinned or bitten.
It’s funny that dondi has gone on record to say that he just doesn’t care about this game and everyone knows it, it’s nice to see people like zaguar giving feedback that would fix the game
I feel like pounce should have a punishment for missing, like a ~1 second animation that plays where you roll/struggle to get back up after missing, along with maybe having to hold rmb for a second to 'charge' the pounce ability, maybe with an animation similar to the JP raptors before they pounce with their claws up. Idk if that's maybe too punishing, but I guess you have to remember that the game won't stay the same as it is now forever, with more playables coming that Omni's can hunt more reliably & with how strong they are in packs..
The dino survival landscape really hates solo players huh 😅 It’s a death sentence for a solo player if they encounter a pack of any species, not just raptors, unless they play something ridiculously evasive - and you really shouldn’t be discouraged from playing one species because it can’t escape sh. I think that the source of this problem comes more from the developer’s bias towards group play. That’s not to say grapple doesn’t have its flaws; it could use some serious work on stamina usage, casting time, and survival rate for victims, but it highlights the insane power a group has over soloists. It seems each creature is built with survivability and power in mind - if your creature is built to not die, you’ll struggle to get a kill, and if your creature is built to kill, you’re gonna die a lot. You can’t have both, well you can, but then you get mid tiers which kind of suck at both. Extremes on each end of the spectrum are eo and rhamph in PoT. Heck, rhamph can’t even deal damage right now! Group play basically just enables players to have both survivability and power because they can abuse the heck out of mix and megapacking and take over the server. I really do think that the devs should go back to the drawing board with how players group up together because 20 omnis KOSing the entire lobby besides low tiers who are sick of PvP is wild.
Here’s my suggestion for how I think they can help make pounce to pin a bit better have it where Omni has 3 charges (or wtvr the little line things at the bottom of most creatures stamina bar is called xd) One is for pouncing on the creature The second one is for initiating the pin And the third one is to cancel a buck so you can stay on for longer And you can have it where if all your charges are gone you waste a HUGE amount of stamina trying to just pounce a creature and you can’t initiate a pin if you don’t have an available charge to use. You could also have it where once all the necessary Omnis needed to pin a creature are on said creature they all need to initiate the pin together otherwise they waste there charge and nothing happens. This not only makes pouncing just more engaging as a whole! But also makes it where there’s more skilled and coordination needed to actually pin smth! But this is just my idea tho 😅 (Also creatures being able to roll over to smush Omnis should also be a thing :0)
I have no idea what the plan was giving a grapple to this thing, i don't play the isle as much anymore and knowing i can lose hours of progress to sir leaps alot just because he's 1 pound heavier then me and i get pinned and killed from a single raptor really isn't looking good for me to come back not anytime soon anyway.
it can be overpowered and tuned, but also a normal swing of an stego insta-kills an omni, and with the same reasonement, the new stego swing also should have a cooldown if they fail
Here's how I would fix the grapple, it be a long comment so bear with me First, in order for omnis to be able to pin another player, that player should've already ran out of stamina so 0% Doing that it'll make stamina preservation a lot more important while not taking away the skill in the hunt that'll take place Second, make the pinning fully based on weight, an adult omni weights 450kg and so anything less than 450kg it'll take a single omni to pin it and anything more than 450kg it'll take at least 2 omnis to pin it Here is an example: 450kg + 450kg = 900kg 450kg + 450kg + 450kg = 1, 350kg You get the point.. Doing that will also create a limitation of how big can an animal be to be pinned The maximum avarage amount of omnis that can pin another animal would be 5, two on the left, two on the right, and one on the back 5 adult omnis would equal to 2, 250kg so anything bigger than that wouldn't be pinneble regardless of stamina Moreover, the only exception to the stamina rule being 0% would be for dinos that weigh half of 450kg, so like juvies or AI animals, a single omni would be able to pounce them and pinned regardless of their stamina Third, pinning another animal would be costly for omnis since the bigger the animal that they pin is the more stamina they'll lose Doing that will potentially create a small window for the pinned animal to survive and fight back, tho the chanses might be low So doing all of that will make the grappling a tool that can be used to finish off an animal after a long battle not taking away from the skill and essentially giving a powerful tool to the raptors who work together as a team All of that will also create a much bigger gap between an experienced player and unexperienced one One that knows how to preserve their stamina and one that doesn't
4:37 i disagree about that all raptor players pouncing the side of a target but they hit the face of the target and get killed just like that, idk how to explain it but they need to fix the original moves first, its a dino who need the most skilled player to play it a solo bc it have low HP too no one talking how weak is the raptor just 2-3 hits can kill you or make you run for your life. i hope everyone stop crying about it bc they also running with a pack and more HP and more damage. its not the raptor fault that new players doesnt know how to use ALT attacks or any attack the right way.
What if they gave pounce a cool down and if you decide to pounce during the cooldown time it costs quite a bit more stamina compared to normal when not on cool down.
Easy fix is to get near water if Raptors try to hunt you. Jump in the water if they pounce you. it immediately knocks them off and you can attack them while they are swimming.
Omniraptor should pin when lots of omnis with each weight go above of the victim fe, a diablo weights 2t you need 5 omnis pouncing (around 2.5t counting each one weight) to pin the diablo, or 6 omnis
I had no idea about this. But it's making more sense now, considering how it was today. Anybody know when this is all supposed to hit the public servers?
I didn't even see what it was that attacked me, I was on my Herra and suddenly I was on the ground unable to get up and I did not see the attacker, even panning the camera, bushes concealed them lol.. now I assume it was a Omni... r.i.p Herra
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey This isn't good feedback. This is spreading hate around a community that has had enough. Feedback would be suggesting fixes for the subject, not just shitting on every idea they present.
@@JohnCake23 if an idea is bad, which this one is it's utterly horrible, then it should rightfully be shit on. Sometimes things dont need to have solutions present to still be bad.
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey it would be utterly horrible if it was added to the main branch. The first iteration is never good. It wont be fixed by people constantly shitting on it. The devs are already AWARE of the issue.
We are already past June, and the test server version of the game is in bad shape. It will take a lot of balancing to manage these new features. Obviously, we will not see new dinosaurs on Evrima for some time; the speed of development is ridiculous. What's even worse, the current version of Evrima has constant fatal error crashes. This is so sad.
I feel like both PoT and Isle should watch real life animals pounce and grapple. Like we have videos that 1 adult female lioness cannot fully pounce down 1 adult water buffalo. They slow it down and the rest of the pride has time to come in for attacks on it or helping grapple it to the ground. It should take 2 or more to grapple larger dinos at all. The bigger a dino gets should make any latching or grappling practically impossible to do. Real life animals do not just magically stick to the side of their prey, they hang half off, willy nilly attempting to hold on. These also are not meant to do that much damage. They grapple prey because it slows prey. The only place they grapple and kill is at the throat, but anywhere else on the body it's just to accumulate some damage but mostly for incapacitation. The pouncing and grappling in these games have always been wack because they're just magically attached to you. In reality they barely hang on and do very superficial damage and they pretty much can never properly pounce anything that starts getting too large. I think people over estimate how claws and surfaces work because the point of claws is to rip flesh. Attaching to flesh is a very fleeting thing to do naturally because eventually claws rip down and out of it. Which is why jaws become very important for staying attached to re-attach and re-position the claws. It's also why we never see anything perfectly attached to the side of anything for more than a few seconds. You shouldn't be able to hang on and claw the guts out of someone and that has always been the problem with pounce. To not do damage to the pouncer is also crazy since that's how lions break their jaws. One proper kick backwards and they can kill attached lions. I often wonder if a system could be introduced for stamina effecting damage output sometimes. The more tired you get the less damage you output. It also benefits pounces since pouncing should be slowing prey imo rather than heavy damaging it. Could also pave way for an adrenaline system where you can have an adrenaline burst but can only use it once so you need to decide if it's better at the beginning, middle or end of the fight.
wasn't fixed what are you talking about? just because it now requires one more raptor to pin doesn't mean it's fixed, solo players are still fucked, a decently sized raptor pack can still pin a group, there is still no counterplay, how is it fixed??
Good mechanic akin to the actual animal inspiration (Utahraptor), piss poor execution. Pounce is good, but it needs to be penalized if you miss and the weight requirements need to be calibrated. Otherwise, I don't believe it needs to be removed. Omnis shouldn't be able to pin a grown Cerato or a full-grown Diablo with 2 full-grown adults, but I like that they can pin prey to begin with. It fits their niche and hunting behavior. Omnis should be restricted around 1-3 tier creatures, but not be able to go up against say a grown Stego. Rex will take care of Apex herbs. I hope they keep pin, but Dear god, it needs work.
That's why it's called HORDE TEST. Just ask for clarification. And yes a discord text does count when Discord is the main channel of communication with the player base.
@@Azuria969 dondi? Lol you think I'm fucking dondi? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Damn... There's always a first. I'm dondi now lol anyway, about discord being trash, that's their main channel. You might not like it, but it is what it is. It's the MAIN source of communication they have. Again you might not like it but you know it is so if ur not there, don't cry ur not updated on stuff.
I just got banned on the Isle discord for saying "At least Filipe isn't in charge of balancing. That's our silver lining xD" in reference to Filipe saying that he would make the balance much much more awful in a comment yesterday. aaaaaand banned for spreading misinformation. So here I am spreading actual information about these shit ass devs
The main problem with pounce is that the devs still think it's a skillful ability that requires you to be good at the game to land, when in reality it's one of the most brainless abilities in the game. You just run at a target that's slower and less agile to you and hold rmb. This idea that it's really difficult to execute makes the devs give raptors an entire laundry list of rewards and advantages for landing a pounce when they don't deserve any of it.
No pounce actually takes some understanding you have to do it at the right time and right place I killed many raptors who pounced me by simply running in to an obstacle or dodgin their attacks and killing them while they were staggered and in my experience most omnis are not smart so they do mistakes all the time the problem with grappling however is that it is an instant win you don't need to be smart or careful you just find a geoup of omnis and hold rmb to win which is why this new mechanic sucks because you cant fight it
Is it at all possible that Omni's grapple is so OP because it's really a test for Allo. Its the best way to test Allo's grapple without actually using Allo. Anybody actually believe Omni's pounce/grapple will remain this strong? All this noise from everyone about nothing.
I kind of hate to say this but... Saying raptor should be penalized for missing a pounce is akin to saying Cat's should be penalized for missing a pounce. It's kind of WHAT THEY DO. That said, a brief cooldown on pounce like Path of Titans has on Raptor Pounce as well as a higher stamina cost for pouncing might be a good "Gameplay" oriented change. Additionally, it 100% should be weight based. Raptor is heavier? It slows down then pins the prey. Raptor isn't heavier? It 100% shouldn't pin it alone. Slow it down? Yes. Pin? No. 2 or more raptors however should end in a heavy slow then a pin. IE: 2 Raptors can pin say...a Tenonto. A Stego would take 4. While a Rex would take 4 or 6.something crazy cause that thing was a heavy mofo. I got nothing for fighting back while pinned. Just gonna be blunt. That's like saying I should be able to resist getting headshot in a FPS. The mission should be to dodge the pounces. With bucking maybe getting a buff or having say a button prompt that if done well dramatically drains the raptor's stamina. But once pinned...well... ☠️ To be fair and to play devil's advocate, this might also make players start acting more like animals/with sense. IE: Running is often better than deathmatching.
the mission shouldn't be to dodge since pounces main purpose is to hunt larger animals is it not? u don't see zebras getting pounced by lions and not biting back/rolling over. there's no reason why the animals in this game can't do that to get raptors off of them. and there should be a missed pounce penalty. this game does act upon fiction a lot and using that to balance out a mechanic isn't a bad thing. especially since there isn't many options for the animal that is getting pounced/pinned other than bucking or using a tree or other obstacle.
@@izzyuez I have never seen a Zebra roll over. I've seen them kick, shake, and enter an intense run. But once they go down, they go down. Remember, beside bucking, players can use trees, rocks, and etc to dislodge raptors. I mentioned weight because that absolutely should be a factor in prey going down. The reason I say the mission should be to dodge is... If a player chooses to engage the pack, instead of running to either: A. A place where pouncing will be more dangerous/inconvenient B. Water where Raptors are vulnerable should they miss/get bucked. C. Running to drain raptor Stam/or escape Then the idea should be to bait and evade. Drain the pack of stamina then attack. Not, stand there and take everything the entire pack can dish out and power through it.
Then you remember its a fucking dinosaur game not a FPS, doesnt make any sense comparing a pounce to headshot lmfao, and it would be so much fun to get pinned down and not be able to do anything about it, then you also remember people put HOURS in the game to see it going to waste with a horrible mechanic that doesnt let you do anything about it. Atleast the stego tail attack is slow enough to bait it, the deino grab is okay, since its a fucking 8 ton pseudo-apex croc, and there is still a chance that you can get out of his mouth like i did one time, but then you have omni, a pack hunter with a big speed that can hold onto big animals and pin them down while they cant do anything about it. It is not fun, im sure you wouldnt like to lose your stego in 10 seconds because you got grappled.
Problem is, im pretty sure cats are penalyzed somewhat for missing pounces, pouncing requires a lot of energy and felines in general already kinda lack that , if a lion misses the pounce on a zebra the hunt is often over with the zebra running away leaving the cat in the dust .pouncing for the cat takes a lot of energy .
@@kaynsus Using your Deinon example. It's grab is its signature feature. Pounce is the Raptor's signature feature. And you can bait a pounce just as you can bait a grab. If the pack is large enough to where baiting/engaging isn't viable then you should run. Raptor packs should be feared. Much like how Wolves and Lions are feared in numbers. I mentioned the headshot because essentially the arguments being made are: Raptors shouldn't be able to kill me with their signature but my signature should kill them. IE: Let Raptors die by our killing blow but we should be able to resist their killing blow. Now, obviously the move is bugged/has bugs. IE: Babies pinning adults and etc. So the devs need to fix that. Urgently. But PLENTY of moves in the Isle waste player time. Stegos kill raptors with a tail swing, wasting the hours the raptor player put in. Deino's kill everything with a single ambush. So I don't want to hear the "time wasted" argument when it comes to The Isle. Perma-death is a feature the community likes the Isle for. That hardcore realism is what the crowd loves. Yet I sure don't hear calls for Raptor's being one shot to be nerfed or changed. Additionally, I don't see calls for grab or tail swing to be punished/have a mechanic survive. Beyond what's already in game, once you're grabbed. That's it. Very, very, very rarely does anyone survive it. You can buck/resist and pray. In that regard, pounce is no different. Except you have alternative ways of dislodging s raptor. (The environment) I'm not saying pinning is perfect. However, standing outside of feelings and looking in, the argument equates too: It's ok for an (character) to have a kill confirm but not okay for an entire pack working together in tandem to get a kill confirm on (character). That said, losing control isn't never fun. In many games characters have stuns, sleeps, and mesmerize techniques/mechanics that cause the player to lose control and usually die. But....that's the penalty for falling victim. As I mentioned in my OP. I'm of the mind that a pounce should slow down a heavier dino, leading to it collapsing and being pinned. That feels more natural IMPO (it also gives the victim time/a chance to scrape the raptor off on something). In truth being pounced should inflict a Stam debuff as the victim is now carrying a but....that'd be abused to hell and back
One thing that would fix everything 1 pounce =half or more stam. They wouldn't have to add anything and players would be so scared not to get the half stam draining attacks Also if you play omni i wish you nothing but pain missery and the sound of a crano earing your guts ❤❤
@@blue4669 i ment before the hordetesting, because developers usually test mechanics Before relasing testing sessions for players, if they played a bit around with utahs and a random thing to pounce on they would've notice the glitches where 1 utah holds down an adult teno
@nekomely3403 didn't they get rid of most/all QA testing in favor of hordetesting because it was deemed a waste to test with so few bodies/inputs at a time? That was sometime in the last year or so I thought
Pounce missing ending up in a recovery is just equally broken for us tho, free kills anyone? we all know this thing only connects to prey when it wants to connect. The best way to go about it is to create simple checks. Is a creature wounded? is it below a treshold on hp/stam? and then finally, do we have the weight to bring it down. Simple! u all keep coming up with the most insane omni gutting solutions, it is low-key very annoying. (Its broken in current itteration, but the ability itself is fine, and USELESS IN GROUP COMBAT
@@diamondback7719 constructive feedback is great, but framing this as a “disaster” three days after release on a test server is just toxic rage bait imo
Hello there, I just released a balance feedback suggestion on this issue in the isle discord. Sheev Tom is the tag, if you could let me know your thoughts that would be most appreciated 🙏
Something to consider. Assuming grapple gets fixed* You did not mention that herbivore are suppose to be in herds and protect each other. So herds should beat Omni pack. Omni pack Beats Solo prey Solo prey (usually) Beats Solo Omni
i totally disagree that it should be punished to miss the pounce. it was there in the first place and it made the pounce basically unusable due to the poor performance and rubberbanding of the game. but what am i saying i dont even play it anymore, just test from time to time if its still shit xD
I got pinned by 2 juvinile raptors and i was a full grown 100% dilo with perfect diet i was beating the shit out of both of them nearly killing one sending hallucinations and then i got pinned by both of them while i had more than 70% stamina. For fuck sake 2 little raptors shouldnt be able to pin and full grown dilo 😭
@@misterionorman9764 lmao, if you knew better, then you'd know I was just trolling, I hate that damn grapple too and I only play as an omni, it stops you from getting in and out quick cause suddenly you and the other player are wrestling on the ground, its stupid, id rather omni climb trees like a leoperd than this damn grapple mechanic
Literally on a stress test server. On top of that it’s changed to be people required for a grapple pin, and that being the targets health or Stan gotta be low. Can’t even say how many times something I’ve been targeting is about to die and then runs into the river. And now punish?? If you pin anything in a pack what do you think the pack mates are gonna do? You pin a dibble in a pack of dibbles the other dibbles are just gonna smash you while you’re pinning so it really on works on solo Dino’s. Brev do you even play the game? Or so you just wait for a bunch of people to cry about a mechanic so you can hate on them? Remember literally on a stress test server where things are bound to change, and they changed it before you released this video 😂
@@gabeybabey678 that’s only when taking the risk to drink, which has become much less needed as the new mutations provide many ways to get water otherwise. Stamina is also needed to keep the animal underwater. And even if you’re in a group, unless it’s a stego, the croc is going to kill you anyways. So I’d say that’s pretty fair rather than just having it be your fate as soon as you cross paths with a raptor pack and have 0 chance of escaping
the isle 🤝 path of titans
making raptors a nightmare to deal with
lol
you can now delete your comment since grapple is fixed
@@leo-gp4vx no, everybody should know all the msitakes the isle had
5:00 The funny part is, the things you mentioned, Utah- sorry, oMnIrApToR *used* to have. Two things would occur if you missed a pounce.
1. If you missed, you missed, and you would have a recovery time of around 1.5s before able to move again, not to mention an actual cooldown on pouncing (albeit not a long one).
2. If you hit an object, you would thunk against it, yelp and go flying before sent on your back as though you were just charged, now having a much longer recovery animation of around 2-2.5s.
If grappling is going to be this strong, it DESPERATELY needs counterplay and more effort put into successfully pinning a target beyond just "spam pounce and you win". Additionally, let the pinned dinosaur buck already, do you know how frustrating it is to be torn apart in seconds on creatures potentially taking 5+ hours to grow while this group can grow themselves in about an hour or less, and you not being able to do ANYTHING while pinned down? Reimplement the missed pounce punishments.
YOOO shiina i see you here too
I'll admit this is basically similar to POT's main update issue with how pounced raptors cannot be damaged in anyway by the player being grabbed; basically a death sentence for solo players if they encounter a raptor pack
It's to ask what was in their mind when they think about something this stupid
But they only do 50% damage while pounced
@@leonardobizarro5453 it doesn't matter that damage is halved if you can't do anything about it
I’m pretty sure it’s just you as the person being pounce can’t dmg the latens n ect anymore but the raptors can still get dmg by your teammate :/
@@hpjivethey said a death sentence for solo players 💀
It really feels like this and Stego's new attack are made to directly deal with the arrival of Rex. And lord knows how omnipotent that's going to be
rex won't be affected by grapple.
@@MIApor from Omni atleast not. Not sure about allo tho.. :D
@@keikusa_allos are way too big (and small) to hunt rex effectively even in a group
They're too big to dodge and weave effectively, but small enough to where the rex grabbing them still means instant death most likely
Well.. nothing as of now apart from like stego poses a slight threat to an adult Rex..
@MIApor not from a single one, of course not. And while an entire pack probably wouldn't be able to trigger the animation that would still be an issue I imagine. But then again it's exactly why grapple should be used in packs
i love when people just suggest fixes to pounce to pin that used to be actual mechanics, like missing a pounce causing your utah to have to recover, most recommended fixes used to be in the game (which will show you how poorly thought out omni changes were
Omni pounce is weak? Okay, let’s remove recovery times.
Omni pounce is too strong? What the hell do you think we can do about it?
Most of omniraptors updates(Except for bug fixes) were given to it because of bad players demanding it to compensate for there lack of skill. Form the instant pounce recovery, to this.
Isn't that the reason most "balance" is done, because of bad players being bad? @@alphatrex612
@@alphatrex612 So let's just give one of the fastest and most agile carnivores the ability to basically one shot anything it jumps at! Surely that's balanced!
In my opinion I think its fine for omnis not to be stunned before their grapple got added, BUT now that it is added it should be re added due to how strong the grapple is.
Apparently they nerfed it with the most recent horde test patch that just dropped, but bumped Dibble up to 3 damn tons so now it can knock over full grown Stegos. It's around 1 ton estimated in real life, it came to the test server at 1.5, got increased to 2 and now 3. This hordetest is one thing after another.
does the weight change at least make it more balanced? I don't mind if it's not super realistic, I mean look what they did with beipi's design and niche and imo it's all the better for it.
@@diamondback7719 Well there were already a few saying it's too strong, 3 tons is not only inaccurate, not only unbalanced but it's making the Styracosaurus a bit redundant
Biggest specimen are 2t
Knowing this, the Cera weight nerf compared to Legacy (2250kg in Legacy, 1300kg in Evrima) is even more egregious. If they are willing to bump Diablo up to 3 tons, why not give Cera extra 200kg so it can stand up to other animals bothering it lol.
@@predalienplush780 Diablos are ment to be able to stand against allos. We now at the point when we get a new tier dinos that are not suppused to be balanced to the lower tiers ones (carnos, dilos, etc), when trike and rex is out its gonna be another tier up. It's not about balance and never will be.
I pray to god that a single dev watches these videos
Some probably do, and quite often, but it's not like they can make a difference at their scale, not everyone is given to have their word to say on what's going to be added in the game or not
@@okaeli2473 Yeah, you're def right about how the average isle dev has very little chance in being able to input their own ideas against the likes of certain higher ups on the team
Someone pointed out to the devs that a solo omni can grapple a fully grown carno and the reply they got was “so?” So I mean the devs don’t really show any intention on fixing it :L
i literally can’t believe the devs who r all adults and have been working on a game for several years behave like this
I'm convinced the Devs want to stop working on the game but have some contractual obligation and so they want to kill the game so they can just stop
Don’t worry! cause we got dondi behind the scenes doing balance changes 🥲
Where did you see it? I linked it, and screenshot it. Is it word of mouth, or did you see it.
@@knucklesox1 ruclips.net/video/BYIvF_slWEw/видео.htmlsi=jQqwmftIN3ASVsUZ
So, how to fix grapple, even as a utah fan myself i can see that it is a little too good.
So heres my idea.
1. Readd the stun for missing a pounce. It makes pouncing in general a lot more risky and rewarding to pull off.
2. The grappled enemy should only be grappled under specific circumstances.
3. Circumstance 1: The grappled player has no stamina left.
4. Circumstance 2: The combined weight of the raptors is half or over the weight of the enemy. E.g. it would take 2 omnitahs to grapple a fully grown carno.
5. While grappling, an omnitahs stamina drains much faster unless the target is smaller than it is, in which case the omnitah drains the same amount of stamina as pouncing. This is to prevent lon-term grappling.
6. Grappling should not be instantaneous unless 1: The grappled player has no stamina. 2: The grappled player is smaller than the grappler. Or 3: The combined weight of grapplers is greater than your weight.
7. The stages of grappling should go from normally being pounced (when it is under half your weight), to losing stamina while walking and being unable to sprint (first stage when combined grappler weight is half or over half your weight), and then after around half a minute you become unable to move. (If the omnitahs disengage the grapple the effect resets.)
8. The more omnitahs you have on a creature, the shorter the time is to ground the opponent.
9. Increase amount of omnitahs that can simultaneously grapple a creature. Anything under 450kg gets pinned instantly. A 450kg-900kg animal can have maximum of 2 raptors on it. 900-1800kg can have 3, 1800-3600 4, 3600-7200 5, and 7200-14400kg can have 6 simultaneously grappling omnitahs on it. This means it is impossible to insta-grapple a stego with stamina, because that would just be broken.
Hope that this idea gives you the motivation for someone on the islecord to see this and put it in the suggestions page. (Im not on islecord as i will probably get banned)
How does some random omni player come up with better ideas than the devs...?
@@bebomonstro Thank you
Grappling scales with stamina as well. So even an Omni can pin down a decently exhausted Diablo alone, which makes sense. But the scaling definitely needs balancing which is why it is still a W.I.P mechanic.
You think there could be some smaller dinosaur that could have either a mutation or a starting feature where it has thick skin and can wriggle out of being pinned, like a honey badger does in real life?
@@diamondback7719 being able to recover from grapple is theoretically arrived in the latest patch.
Utah pounce being a bar attack, like dibbles spar and dilos venom, would be brilliant. But sadly The Isle devs don't think that outside the box.
...your statement contradicts itself
or like dryo's dodge.
Yeah, I had suggestion that grappling will only work to animal with stamina bellow 30%, each 500 weight target had will need extra raptor to grappling it, or else it will just do regular bite damage
@@0996-l7y I was certain that's how it's going to work. 30% stamina at max, maybe even 20%. And it can't be too large of a creature. Imagine 4 omnis pinning a full-grown shant just because it has low stam... Ridiculous. I am appalled at how they implemented it. It's too much even for testing purposes.
The idea of slowing down before thebpin and then a struggle one pinned is definitely good ideas.
As there is certainly still things that need to be improved wih this mechanic.
PoT has now a similar pounce disaster. While you are getting pounced you can NOT longer do damage to the pouncer anymore. Before that you could bite to the side to hit the pouncer
It should only be used imo only when victim cannot fight back anymore what I mean by that is red health and 25% stamina
id argue grapple should only occur when something is at red health and 0% stamina making it almost a finisher type move
I agree with that @@xamminJammin
@@xamminJammin come to think of it, should every carnivore have a finisher move of some kind? Like someone succumbing to dilo or troodon's venom to the point of collapse, and then they just eat it alive as a sort of group-finisher.
@bumblingfool2211 that would make sense considering the devs do want to make the game visceral
4:22 but the way that dibble moved was also very unpredictable en glitchy
The devs say they make these changes maxed and crazy for "feedback". How is that helpful? Is getting murdered left and right by constant bs going to provide any good feedback about new mechanics? Not at all
Yeah I call bullshit I am pretty sure that devs are adding these mechanics the way that they want it to be and when people rightfully complain and get angry they attempt to gaslight by saying that it was maxed and it was intentional even tho it does not make no sense
I mean kinda 🤷♀️ If there goal is actually to listen to the feedback that’s being given, then seeing how far they can push a mechanic and seeing if it needs to be toned down or not is in theory helpful for the balance of said mechanic so they can gauge how much it needs to be toned down n stuff
I disagree, this is hordetesting people are warned that this was for testing purposes, if this was in the main branch, your point would be valid, but this isn’t
It's only the mutations that are maxed out not omniraptors pounce or there stats
@@LostSomeHope It's terribly unfortunate, and it seems that everyone is just ignoring the big warning on the main screen when they launch the game. More likely though they are just frustrated and can't accept that the game they enjoy isn't finished so bash the dev team it is.
It's not a disaster yet. The update is only on the horde test. It's not really fair to call it a disaster now. Hopefully it gets nerfed before it releases.
it already got patched and the requirements are clarified.
He just complains about everything dont listen to him there are other RUclipsrs who are more fair and they explain stuff better
@@TITANIUMFIREWOLFI mean yeah fair, he supports PoT
@@EeARKky7435Not rlly he favours the isle more and that has nothing to do with the matter.
@@MIAporKeep in mind that videos are prerecorded.
So this could've and most likely been made before the patch is frickin obvious doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
3:50 to 3:58
I feel like this is what grapple should be used for. A sort of Hail Mary to save yourself and or other packmates when you're not pinning an easy smaller kill. But it shouldn't be able to be used as inconsequentially as it seems it is now. For example, a utah with close to max stam getting to grapple could maybe atomize their stam a bit close to half before draining more accutately. Whereas if you have low or half stam, you wont be able to grapple at all. Forcing packmates to grapple more sparingly. Hopefully grappling will have a separate button to commit to while pouncing- most likely using left click once whilst commiting to right clicking.
good idea.
We will see how this will play out at release
Atleast the grapple needs 2 omnis now to work.
Its not stooping the problem, but Atleast stops you from being solo hunted by grapple omnis 😅
The Isle devs making Utah NOT the most op dinosaur in the game: *IMPOSSIBLE*
Clown
They nerfed it back then, and people cried about it, they buffed it, and people cried about it. There are omni mains who think grapple is a good thing, but not enough XD Hard to balance anything with these mixed responses.
Not so long ago it was in a state where even omni tubers were creating videos on how the playable is unplayable. It is constantly going up and down so reactions like this do not make any sense.
@@Bleghspread Utha/Omni has never been in a bad state ever. They have always been the dominant dino in their weight class and whatever is in a higher weight they have the mobility and stackable DOT to duel. The only time Utha had competition was when Pachy was at its strongest, and even then it was mostly a skill matchup.
I been saying this for litteral years and it is even more true when they just keep giving them mechanic after mechanic without nerfing their base mobility.
@@MIApor they complain all the time because is never balanced correctly
tbh i have an idea of what the Grapple should look like:
_minimal of 3 omnis
-prey have to be on 20% stam
The omnis will have to pounce on each direction, left, right and back, if the prey kept losing it's stam it will be pinned
(20% stam for a balance so that the dino can defend himself and not be a finish move)
The more omnis pounced will require way less of the prey to be pinned
Even as the guy who’s somewhat known to solo things as omni, there’s absolutely no way a singular omni should be able to pin something that’s larger than said omni. Like you said it’s a *coordinated* group effort, not a brainless kill button like deino lunge.
I have no idea and I’m genuinely concerned how this got past QA, regardless if hoardtesting is a testing platform or not
Pouncing already has plenty of risk. If a pack isn’t coordinating correctly they pin each other and are stunned long enough for an enemy to kill one or both raptors. In addition missed pounces take stam. Considering it takes 50% for a raptor to deal around 440 damage, every bit of stam used before latching is detrimental to a raptors damage output. Consider that they also need this stam to actually run away and pounce is very much already balanced (not considering any pinning). Lastly; the environment is a natural counter to pounce. They can’t just stay on you and Ggs. They have to dismount before you walk into a rock, wall, tree, or decide to turn them to a cliff edge or body of croc filled water.
pounce and bucking need a massive, MASSIVE overhaul. I don't like grapple not even conceptually it's too oppressive in my opinion. the devs need to focus on fixing their current broken mechanics before adding more broken mechanics.
The timing on this one is hilarious
The fact that Omni's did have a punishable pounce led to them basically getting killed instantly in fights. You could have pounced at the perfect time and server lag just got you killed. And Latency is always present in the isle. Having a high skill ceiling/teamwork based playable be simply unusable due to ever present server lag is a big pill to swallow and likely one of the reasons they removed the 2-4 second recovery animation from a missed pounce. IF you want to reduce pounce spam, giving it an increased stam cost to initiate could be one way of doing it. Or giving it a brief 2-3 second window where they can't pounce again, but aren't locked in place is another. Or both. Omni is a pack hunter generally going up against targets larger than itself. Its almost never going to kill that target through raw damage alone, which is why its pounce is a bleeder. They wear down the target overtime. If an omni misses a pounce and is locked in place to recover, most targets they are fighting can either one tap them, or seriously injure them in one or two hits, taking them out of the fight completely if they survive. And numbers is the biggest advantage an omni has. Loosing a member every failed pounce is a completely flawed strategy for a team based animal.
That being said, grapple needs to be fixed. I would personally think that going by current hp is a completely flawed Idea. The animals hp total, the "weight" value, is much better. If you have an animal that weighs twice as much as omni, hurt or not, its likely not able to be pinned by a single omni unless its completely out of stamina and exhausted. Thats the only way it makes sense. Needing to have enough omnis to "outweigh" the target should be the primarily prerequisite. Only so many spaces on the animal can be pounced on, and if they still outweigh the pack, they shouldn't be able to pin it down. Stamina is basically the only wild card in that equation that could determine if an animal that would normally resist being pinned gets pinned because its too exhausted to fight back. Giving the animal the ability to fight back and deal damage once its pinned defeats the purpose of a pin. Every animal in the game can buck omni's off of them. And leaves the omnis completely exposed to get whalloped on as the punishment for staying latched on to long. If they manage to pin down an animal, yet still are able to get hit and potentially die in one or two hits, its not a rewarding playstyle because even then with perfect team work you can still lose multiple pack members per hunt. And the isle already has major issues with things killing other things just because they can. Adding more bodies to the mix doesn't help. Dibble's roll for example, should only be able to be triggered if it hasn't been pinned yet. If you have multiple omnis on you and you notice you are getting weighed down, using the roll to force the omnis off will reset all their grapple progress as well as deal some damage. Thats a fine mechanic if it has a healthy stam cost to use. Cause it starts the raptors over, and the damage dealt may force them to reconsider the attack. Without outright being a no u easy reversal to omnis entire kit. And if they can bait you to roll, they are eating your stam, which is good for them.
Me checking on TI's progress after not following it for a few months: "Oh sweet heavens"
How long ago did this change happen? Was it very recent? Because if so, it's very weird that both The Isle and Path of Titans implemented a hated change to Pounce mechanics at the same time.
I mean the way I see it is make a requirement of raptors needed to pin something and give the pinned player a chance to buck off raptors after being pinned, and limiting grappling to a certain amount of stam like 50-25% rather than letting you hold it the entire time. So for example it could take 2-3 raptors to pin anything from a pachy-dilo sized, 3-4 from cera to teno sized, 4-5 carno and dibble, and like 6 for stego and future added dinos. And grapple could be limited for people who are adult raptors and not let juvis or sub adults be able to pin at all. And one last thing, limit it to grouped up raptors so mega packs are both discouraged a bit and not crazy op.
*taps* PoT did this even worse. Now you can't hurt the dinosaur that pounced you. Only buck continuously in hopes they get off of you for the next one to jump on.
I think there shouldn't be a cool down on pounces but the more you use it within a certain time the more likely you are to mess it up and slip over or fall, allowing the prey to fight back
"This is a group-based animal. It shouldnt be dangerous when alone."
Well whilst I do see what you meant I must partly disagree. Ofc raptors are meant to be packhunters that use coordinated strategies to down bigger prey. To say that a lonely raptor shouldnt at all be dangerous is the part where I disagree.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying a single raptor should be able to easily down a much bigger enemy but it definitely should still be able to try and maybe down a younger animal which are easier.
Whilst I see that you are right with the pounce being an issue since it has no punish to it, I would more say that it would be better for the pounce to just get a cooldown.
Missing it should not immediately let you be open for an attack but rather using it in the wrong moment like for ex from the front instead of back or flank. The punish with missing it alone already would be wasted stamina as stamina now more than ever is a ressource to carefully be managed. So making pounce less spammable by giving it a cd would seal the deal in my opinion.
But yea... hordetest escalated hardcore when they dropped this disproportionate nonsense :D
On the pounce, an easy fix instead of there being a whole animation of the raptor flopping around after missing a pounce, there could just be a massive speed delay, after the raptor lands after it’s missed pounce. Obviously, I’m not a dinosaur game nerd so if this doesn’t sound like a good idea Womp womp
Perhaps if they made these types of attack more like the kill animations PoT teased years ago, in other words, making it health based so if the dino is at full health the you anx your pack can only do normal pounces but once the prey animal is pretty much on deaths door, they can then seal the deal with the grapple because either way, that prey animal is not getting away from the pack and will die regardless of whether its pinned or bitten.
It’s funny that dondi has gone on record to say that he just doesn’t care about this game and everyone knows it, it’s nice to see people like zaguar giving feedback that would fix the game
My brother in Christ it's on the testing branch
I feel like pounce should have a punishment for missing, like a ~1 second animation that plays where you roll/struggle to get back up after missing, along with maybe having to hold rmb for a second to 'charge' the pounce ability, maybe with an animation similar to the JP raptors before they pounce with their claws up. Idk if that's maybe too punishing, but I guess you have to remember that the game won't stay the same as it is now forever, with more playables coming that Omni's can hunt more reliably & with how strong they are in packs..
Was taking a break from the isle....... Glad to know things are still great 😄
The dino survival landscape really hates solo players huh 😅 It’s a death sentence for a solo player if they encounter a pack of any species, not just raptors, unless they play something ridiculously evasive - and you really shouldn’t be discouraged from playing one species because it can’t escape sh.
I think that the source of this problem comes more from the developer’s bias towards group play. That’s not to say grapple doesn’t have its flaws; it could use some serious work on stamina usage, casting time, and survival rate for victims, but it highlights the insane power a group has over soloists. It seems each creature is built with survivability and power in mind - if your creature is built to not die, you’ll struggle to get a kill, and if your creature is built to kill, you’re gonna die a lot. You can’t have both, well you can, but then you get mid tiers which kind of suck at both. Extremes on each end of the spectrum are eo and rhamph in PoT. Heck, rhamph can’t even deal damage right now!
Group play basically just enables players to have both survivability and power because they can abuse the heck out of mix and megapacking and take over the server. I really do think that the devs should go back to the drawing board with how players group up together because 20 omnis KOSing the entire lobby besides low tiers who are sick of PvP is wild.
Here’s my suggestion for how I think they can help make pounce to pin a bit better
have it where Omni has 3 charges (or wtvr the little line things at the bottom of most creatures stamina bar is called xd)
One is for pouncing on the creature
The second one is for initiating the pin
And the third one is to cancel a buck so you can stay on for longer
And you can have it where if all your charges are gone you waste a HUGE amount of stamina trying to just pounce a creature and you can’t initiate a pin if you don’t have an available charge to use.
You could also have it where once all the necessary Omnis needed to pin a creature are on said creature they all need to initiate the pin together otherwise they waste there charge and nothing happens.
This not only makes pouncing just more engaging as a whole! But also makes it where there’s more skilled and coordination needed to actually pin smth!
But this is just my idea tho 😅
(Also creatures being able to roll over to smush Omnis should also be a thing :0)
The devs don't even see this an issue. There were people complaining about how 1 raptor can pin a full adult carno. Their response was "ok and?"
The Devs updated a few days ago so a single Omni cant ever pin, stop with the hysterics over something in development
@@smefour ok and?
@@kyliemoore9013 Ok whats your point now?
@@smefour idk. In actuality i had no idea this was even fixed.
I have no idea what the plan was giving a grapple to this thing, i don't play the isle as much anymore and knowing i can lose hours of progress to sir leaps alot just because he's 1 pound heavier then me and i get pinned and killed from a single raptor really isn't looking good for me to come back not anytime soon anyway.
it can be overpowered and tuned, but also a normal swing of an stego insta-kills an omni, and with the same reasonement, the new stego swing also should have a cooldown if they fail
Here's how I would fix the grapple, it be a long comment so bear with me
First, in order for omnis to be able to pin another player, that player should've already ran out of stamina so 0%
Doing that it'll make stamina preservation a lot more important while not taking away the skill in the hunt that'll take place
Second, make the pinning fully based on weight, an adult omni weights 450kg and so anything less than 450kg it'll take a single omni to pin it and anything more than 450kg it'll take at least 2 omnis to pin it
Here is an example: 450kg + 450kg = 900kg
450kg + 450kg + 450kg = 1, 350kg
You get the point..
Doing that will also create a limitation of how big can an animal be to be pinned
The maximum avarage amount of omnis that can pin another animal would be 5, two on the left, two on the right, and one on the back
5 adult omnis would equal to 2, 250kg so anything bigger than that wouldn't be pinneble regardless of stamina
Moreover, the only exception to the stamina rule being 0% would be for dinos that weigh half of 450kg, so like juvies or AI animals, a single omni would be able to pounce them and pinned regardless of their stamina
Third, pinning another animal would be costly for omnis since the bigger the animal that they pin is the more stamina they'll lose
Doing that will potentially create a small window for the pinned animal to survive and fight back, tho the chanses might be low
So doing all of that will make the grappling a tool that can be used to finish off an animal after a long battle not taking away from the skill and essentially giving a powerful tool to the raptors who work together as a team
All of that will also create a much bigger gap between an experienced player and unexperienced one
One that knows how to preserve their stamina and one that doesn't
The aisle devs after seeing this video: alr yea the new camara update is going to be perfect now.
4:37 i disagree about that all raptor players pouncing the side of a target but they hit the face of the target and get killed just like that, idk how to explain it but they need to fix the original moves first, its a dino who need the most skilled player to play it a solo bc it have low HP too no one talking how weak is the raptor just 2-3 hits can kill you or make you run for your life. i hope everyone stop crying about it bc they also running with a pack and more HP and more damage. its not the raptor fault that new players doesnt know how to use ALT attacks or any attack the right way.
What if they gave pounce a cool down and if you decide to pounce during the cooldown time it costs quite a bit more stamina compared to normal when not on cool down.
Easy fix is to get near water if Raptors try to hunt you. Jump in the water if they pounce you. it immediately knocks them off and you can attack them while they are swimming.
Right then nobody will ever be anywhere but rivers and ponds
Omniraptor should pin when lots of omnis with each weight go above of the victim fe, a diablo weights 2t you need 5 omnis pouncing (around 2.5t counting each one weight) to pin the diablo, or 6 omnis
i would say they should just change it to this: if pounced by 3 omnis, and if stam is below 30%, then pin. If not, then no pin
I had no idea about this. But it's making more sense now, considering how it was today. Anybody know when this is all supposed to hit the public servers?
A simple roll move would fix this. The heavier the target, the more damage and potential bone break the pinner will receive.
I didn't even see what it was that attacked me, I was on my Herra and suddenly I was on the ground unable to get up and I did not see the attacker, even panning the camera, bushes concealed them lol.. now I assume it was a Omni... r.i.p Herra
It's a hordetest? This is not the end of the world. They have already dropped a patch to make this much better.
Yeah it's a hordetest it is literally a TEST. By the logic of a TEST, *THEY WANT FEEDBACK*
Whole video is a wild overreaction for views I fear
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey This isn't good feedback. This is spreading hate around a community that has had enough. Feedback would be suggesting fixes for the subject, not just shitting on every idea they present.
@@JohnCake23 if an idea is bad, which this one is it's utterly horrible, then it should rightfully be shit on. Sometimes things dont need to have solutions present to still be bad.
@@IndominusRex-wc1ey it would be utterly horrible if it was added to the main branch. The first iteration is never good. It wont be fixed by people constantly shitting on it. The devs are already AWARE of the issue.
We are already past June, and the test server version of the game is in bad shape. It will take a lot of balancing to manage these new features. Obviously, we will not see new dinosaurs on Evrima for some time; the speed of development is ridiculous. What's even worse, the current version of Evrima has constant fatal error crashes. This is so sad.
I feel like both PoT and Isle should watch real life animals pounce and grapple. Like we have videos that 1 adult female lioness cannot fully pounce down 1 adult water buffalo. They slow it down and the rest of the pride has time to come in for attacks on it or helping grapple it to the ground. It should take 2 or more to grapple larger dinos at all. The bigger a dino gets should make any latching or grappling practically impossible to do. Real life animals do not just magically stick to the side of their prey, they hang half off, willy nilly attempting to hold on. These also are not meant to do that much damage. They grapple prey because it slows prey. The only place they grapple and kill is at the throat, but anywhere else on the body it's just to accumulate some damage but mostly for incapacitation.
The pouncing and grappling in these games have always been wack because they're just magically attached to you. In reality they barely hang on and do very superficial damage and they pretty much can never properly pounce anything that starts getting too large. I think people over estimate how claws and surfaces work because the point of claws is to rip flesh. Attaching to flesh is a very fleeting thing to do naturally because eventually claws rip down and out of it. Which is why jaws become very important for staying attached to re-attach and re-position the claws. It's also why we never see anything perfectly attached to the side of anything for more than a few seconds. You shouldn't be able to hang on and claw the guts out of someone and that has always been the problem with pounce.
To not do damage to the pouncer is also crazy since that's how lions break their jaws. One proper kick backwards and they can kill attached lions.
I often wonder if a system could be introduced for stamina effecting damage output sometimes. The more tired you get the less damage you output. It also benefits pounces since pouncing should be slowing prey imo rather than heavy damaging it.
Could also pave way for an adrenaline system where you can have an adrenaline burst but can only use it once so you need to decide if it's better at the beginning, middle or end of the fight.
My dumbass brain read “the raper graper disaster” 😭💀
They did to evrima just the same they did to legacy - they turned a solo omni into a killing machine
putting out the video of how the grapple is a disaster while it’s already fixed is truly something.
Pounce/omni apologist picking the most irrelevant argument to defend a mechanic that benefitted them, truly a tradition at this point
@@someone2.043 how am I defending a mechanic that was op as fuck saying that it’s fixed already?
By what an hour? I think it was already setup for release before the fix.
wasn't fixed what are you talking about? just because it now requires one more raptor to pin doesn't mean it's fixed, solo players are still fucked, a decently sized raptor pack can still pin a group, there is still no counterplay, how is it fixed??
This was a solid video yet again on the topic of The Isle, keep it up bud ❤
why they can make it this way,omnis can pinn 40-50% of there body weight.This is simple and I think everyone would be happy with that.
Good mechanic akin to the actual animal inspiration (Utahraptor), piss poor execution. Pounce is good, but it needs to be penalized if you miss and the weight requirements need to be calibrated. Otherwise, I don't believe it needs to be removed. Omnis shouldn't be able to pin a grown Cerato or a full-grown Diablo with 2 full-grown adults, but I like that they can pin prey to begin with. It fits their niche and hunting behavior. Omnis should be restricted around 1-3 tier creatures, but not be able to go up against say a grown Stego. Rex will take care of Apex herbs.
I hope they keep pin, but Dear god, it needs work.
This is so exhausting. Just give them a year, the devs will iron it all out 😵💫😩😭
That's why it's called HORDE TEST. Just ask for clarification. And yes a discord text does count when Discord is the main channel of communication with the player base.
discord is trash so your opinion is invalid NICE TRY DONDI🤣🤣🤣
@@Azuria969 dondi? Lol you think I'm fucking dondi? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Damn... There's always a first. I'm dondi now lol anyway, about discord being trash, that's their main channel. You might not like it, but it is what it is. It's the MAIN source of communication they have. Again you might not like it but you know it is so if ur not there, don't cry ur not updated on stuff.
I just got banned on the Isle discord for saying "At least Filipe isn't in charge of balancing. That's our silver lining xD" in reference to Filipe saying that he would make the balance much much more awful in a comment yesterday. aaaaaand banned for spreading misinformation.
So here I am spreading actual information about these shit ass devs
The main problem with pounce is that the devs still think it's a skillful ability that requires you to be good at the game to land, when in reality it's one of the most brainless abilities in the game. You just run at a target that's slower and less agile to you and hold rmb. This idea that it's really difficult to execute makes the devs give raptors an entire laundry list of rewards and advantages for landing a pounce when they don't deserve any of it.
No pounce actually takes some understanding you have to do it at the right time and right place I killed many raptors who pounced me by simply running in to an obstacle or dodgin their attacks and killing them while they were staggered and in my experience most omnis are not smart so they do mistakes all the time the problem with grappling however is that it is an instant win you don't need to be smart or careful you just find a geoup of omnis and hold rmb to win which is why this new mechanic sucks because you cant fight it
Is it at all possible that Omni's grapple is so OP because it's really a test for Allo. Its the best way to test Allo's grapple without actually using Allo. Anybody actually believe Omni's pounce/grapple will remain this strong? All this noise from everyone about nothing.
I kind of hate to say this but...
Saying raptor should be penalized for missing a pounce is akin to saying Cat's should be penalized for missing a pounce.
It's kind of WHAT THEY DO.
That said, a brief cooldown on pounce like Path of Titans has on Raptor Pounce as well as a higher stamina cost for pouncing might be a good "Gameplay" oriented change.
Additionally, it 100% should be weight based.
Raptor is heavier? It slows down then pins the prey.
Raptor isn't heavier? It 100% shouldn't pin it alone. Slow it down? Yes. Pin? No.
2 or more raptors however should end in a heavy slow then a pin.
IE: 2 Raptors can pin say...a Tenonto. A Stego would take 4.
While a Rex would take 4 or 6.something crazy cause that thing was a heavy mofo.
I got nothing for fighting back while pinned.
Just gonna be blunt.
That's like saying I should be able to resist getting headshot in a FPS.
The mission should be to dodge the pounces. With bucking maybe getting a buff or having say a button prompt that if done well dramatically drains the raptor's stamina.
But once pinned...well... ☠️
To be fair and to play devil's advocate, this might also make players start acting more like animals/with sense.
IE: Running is often better than deathmatching.
the mission shouldn't be to dodge since pounces main purpose is to hunt larger animals is it not? u don't see zebras getting pounced by lions and not biting back/rolling over. there's no reason why the animals in this game can't do that to get raptors off of them. and there should be a missed pounce penalty. this game does act upon fiction a lot and using that to balance out a mechanic isn't a bad thing. especially since there isn't many options for the animal that is getting pounced/pinned other than bucking or using a tree or other obstacle.
@@izzyuez
I have never seen a Zebra roll over.
I've seen them kick, shake, and enter an intense run. But once they go down, they go down.
Remember, beside bucking, players can use trees, rocks, and etc to dislodge raptors.
I mentioned weight because that absolutely should be a factor in prey going down.
The reason I say the mission should be to dodge is...
If a player chooses to engage the pack, instead of running to either:
A. A place where pouncing will be more dangerous/inconvenient
B. Water where Raptors are vulnerable should they miss/get bucked.
C. Running to drain raptor Stam/or escape
Then the idea should be to bait and evade. Drain the pack of stamina then attack.
Not, stand there and take everything the entire pack can dish out and power through it.
Then you remember its a fucking dinosaur game not a FPS, doesnt make any sense comparing a pounce to headshot lmfao, and it would be so much fun to get pinned down and not be able to do anything about it, then you also remember people put HOURS in the game to see it going to waste with a horrible mechanic that doesnt let you do anything about it. Atleast the stego tail attack is slow enough to bait it, the deino grab is okay, since its a fucking 8 ton pseudo-apex croc, and there is still a chance that you can get out of his mouth like i did one time, but then you have omni, a pack hunter with a big speed that can hold onto big animals and pin them down while they cant do anything about it. It is not fun, im sure you wouldnt like to lose your stego in 10 seconds because you got grappled.
Problem is, im pretty sure cats are penalyzed somewhat for missing pounces, pouncing requires a lot of energy and felines in general already kinda lack that , if a lion misses the pounce on a zebra the hunt is often over with the zebra running away leaving the cat in the dust .pouncing for the cat takes a lot of energy .
@@kaynsus
Using your Deinon example.
It's grab is its signature feature.
Pounce is the Raptor's signature feature.
And you can bait a pounce just as you can bait a grab.
If the pack is large enough to where baiting/engaging isn't viable then you should run.
Raptor packs should be feared.
Much like how Wolves and Lions are feared in numbers.
I mentioned the headshot because essentially the arguments being made are:
Raptors shouldn't be able to kill me with their signature but my signature should kill them.
IE: Let Raptors die by our killing blow but we should be able to resist their killing blow.
Now, obviously the move is bugged/has bugs.
IE: Babies pinning adults and etc.
So the devs need to fix that. Urgently.
But PLENTY of moves in the Isle waste player time.
Stegos kill raptors with a tail swing, wasting the hours the raptor player put in.
Deino's kill everything with a single ambush.
So I don't want to hear the "time wasted" argument when it comes to The Isle.
Perma-death is a feature the community likes the Isle for. That hardcore realism is what the crowd loves.
Yet I sure don't hear calls for Raptor's being one shot to be nerfed or changed.
Additionally, I don't see calls for grab or tail swing to be punished/have a mechanic survive.
Beyond what's already in game, once you're grabbed. That's it. Very, very, very rarely does anyone survive it.
You can buck/resist and pray.
In that regard, pounce is no different. Except you have alternative ways of dislodging s raptor. (The environment)
I'm not saying pinning is perfect.
However, standing outside of feelings and looking in, the argument equates too:
It's ok for an (character) to have a kill confirm but not okay for an entire pack working together in tandem to get a kill confirm on (character).
That said, losing control isn't never fun.
In many games characters have stuns, sleeps, and mesmerize techniques/mechanics that cause the player to lose control and usually die.
But....that's the penalty for falling victim.
As I mentioned in my OP.
I'm of the mind that a pounce should slow down a heavier dino, leading to it collapsing and being pinned.
That feels more natural IMPO (it also gives the victim time/a chance to scrape the raptor off on something).
In truth being pounced should inflict a Stam debuff as the victim is now carrying a but....that'd be abused to hell and back
One thing that would fix everything 1 pounce =half or more stam. They wouldn't have to add anything and players would be so scared not to get the half stam draining attacks
Also if you play omni i wish you nothing but pain missery and the sound of a crano earing your guts ❤❤
just wait til they bring the grapple to rex and every dino is free game
Raptors continue to be the most annoying creature to deal with in this game. They were a menace in legacy and here we go again.
damn, i didn't knew it was such a mess right now, how could the dev put that mechanic out like this, didn't they test it at all-?
It's on the hordetesting branch so, they "are" testing
@@blue4669 i ment before the hordetesting, because developers usually test mechanics Before relasing testing sessions for players, if they played a bit around with utahs and a random thing to pounce on they would've notice the glitches where 1 utah holds down an adult teno
@nekomely3403 didn't they get rid of most/all QA testing in favor of hordetesting because it was deemed a waste to test with so few bodies/inputs at a time? That was sometime in the last year or so I thought
Tbh this actually gives raptors a fighting chance
they alread had a fighting chance, not super big, but they did, raptor was fine as it was, especially after the back pounce was added
imagine what rex pin is going to be like Oo
Pin to pounce should only happens when an animal is out of stam like a carno if a carno is out of stamina it should be able to get pinned
i hope it gets nerfed a lot cause as it is rn on the horde test even a baby can see that this is highly unbalanced and crazy
As I’ve said a hundred times, I wish they’d make what they have perfect instead of piling more broken shit on top of broken shit.
Pounce missing ending up in a recovery is just equally broken for us tho, free kills anyone? we all know this thing only connects to prey when it wants to connect.
The best way to go about it is to create simple checks. Is a creature wounded? is it below a treshold on hp/stam? and then finally, do we have the weight to bring it down. Simple! u all keep coming up with the most insane omni gutting solutions, it is low-key very annoying.
(Its broken in current itteration, but the ability itself is fine, and USELESS IN GROUP COMBAT
0:33 average Utah experience lol
how much dramaaaaa its obvious a raptor shouldnt pin bigger prey it probably just a bug. its a testing server for gods sake
7:42 what was the deino doin on land
This is what happens when they aren't focused on bringing us new dinos. They totally break the game with their tiny minded ideas.
Ummm…..its a test server
devs still want feedback and critique. Backlash is just a more widespread and sudden form of it.
@@diamondback7719 constructive feedback is great, but framing this as a “disaster” three days after release on a test server is just toxic rage bait imo
@@CollieDaze melodramatic, sure, but not something to lose sleep over.
@@diamondback7719 not losing sleep over it, but worth pointing out when a content creator blows something out of proportion to farm engagement.
i dont see the problem with the idea of it
wait diablo got added? i need to play the isle more..
As arrogant as Dondi loves to behave, he and the devs sure don't know what makes what makes a game fun and balanced
Hello there, I just released a balance feedback suggestion on this issue in the isle discord. Sheev Tom is the tag, if you could let me know your thoughts that would be most appreciated 🙏
This guy has unconditional hate for this game and the developers.
the hate for the devs is valid but I agree complaining for the sake of complaining is annoying
Something to consider.
Assuming grapple gets fixed*
You did not mention that herbivore are suppose to be in herds and protect each other.
So herds should beat Omni pack.
Omni pack Beats Solo prey
Solo prey (usually) Beats Solo Omni
True, it's also funny that no one complained when the Tenonto was buffed, making it nearly impossible for them to die.
You failed to mention the circumstances in which you could grapple with only one raptor. I don't have a strong opinion on this but at least be fair.
i totally disagree that it should be punished to miss the pounce. it was there in the first place and it made the pounce basically unusable due to the poor performance and rubberbanding of the game. but what am i saying i dont even play it anymore, just test from time to time if its still shit xD
I got pinned by 2 juvinile raptors and i was a full grown 100% dilo with perfect diet i was beating the shit out of both of them nearly killing one sending hallucinations and then i got pinned by both of them while i had more than 70% stamina. For fuck sake 2 little raptors shouldnt be able to pin and full grown dilo 😭
this grapple and the migration system is so bad.
Same as legacy LB. Movement restrict mechanics are a mistake in almost every single fucking game.
I just want the game to not fking die the sec anything happens literally such a shit show with everyone tp around everywhere
*THUNDER STRIKE* Mrreeeeoowwwww EVIL FUCKING WIZARD CAT !!!! *MORE THUNDERS*
finally!! the raptor finally has something that makes it a competitor to the carno and cerato
yo i found the trash omni player that suggested the grapple
@@misterionorman9764 lmao, if you knew better, then you'd know I was just trolling, I hate that damn grapple too and I only play as an omni, it stops you from getting in and out quick cause suddenly you and the other player are wrestling on the ground, its stupid, id rather omni climb trees like a leoperd than this damn grapple mechanic
Literally on a stress test server.
On top of that it’s changed to be people required for a grapple pin, and that being the targets health or Stan gotta be low. Can’t even say how many times something I’ve been targeting is about to die and then runs into the river.
And now punish??
If you pin anything in a pack what do you think the pack mates are gonna do? You pin a dibble in a pack of dibbles the other dibbles are just gonna smash you while you’re pinning so it really on works on solo Dino’s.
Brev do you even play the game? Or so you just wait for a bunch of people to cry about a mechanic so you can hate on them?
Remember literally on a stress test server where things are bound to change, and they changed it before you released this video 😂
But it’s specifically ruining the gameplay for solo players by not allowing them to fight back
@@Rdandrea9what about crocs grab then 😂😂
@@gabeybabey678 that’s only when taking the risk to drink, which has become much less needed as the new mutations provide many ways to get water otherwise. Stamina is also needed to keep the animal underwater. And even if you’re in a group, unless it’s a stego, the croc is going to kill you anyways. So I’d say that’s pretty fair rather than just having it be your fate as soon as you cross paths with a raptor pack and have 0 chance of escaping
Instead of hating raptor hate herrera. 0 counterplay. 0 ability to see one coming. One shot amd thats it