The STRANGEST Transit Line in North America | The Ottawa O-Train
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2021
- We haven't talked about the Ottawa O-Train Line 1 in a while, and since it's starting to come back into discussions these days, Reece thought it would be a great topic to revisit again. Enjoy!
As always, leave a comment down below if you have ideas for our future videos. Like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon so you won't miss my next video!
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Hi, my name's Reece. I'm a passionate Creator, Transportation Planner, and Software Developer, interested in rapid transportation all around my home base of Toronto, Canada, as well as the whole world!
The O-Train is great and it's sort of been dragged through the mud! I am excited to see where it goes in the future!
Edit: Someone made a great comment about how these type of videos about North American transit systems and plans are quite negative: The first step is acknowledging you have a problem!
Yes. No more LRT in big cities. Strictly light metro or metro first. . That is the lesson.
The o train has some major flaws, that come from poor design from a people flow in stations. Many stations have ONE major quick entrance and egress route from the platform. This is the case at two of the major transfer stations, Hurdman and Bayview. What is worse about this is the stairs place the incoming passengers at the END of the platform. People do not want to walk further than nessisary. So they stop at the first few door markings, instead of moving down the platform. This is why the STO has to build a tunnel under Sparks st. instead of coming into Bayview St over the POW Bridge. It really was under engineered in terms of traffic flow management within the stations. A little extra costs would have a much smoother system.
But with the post covid work policy from the GOC, the number of comutters is going never reach pre covid levels for downtown Ottawa .
i don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out the negatives because you balance it with positive aspects and lessons/ideas that are important to take away from those negatives which is ultimately a positive outcome
Guys dont be so hard on ottawa’s lrt! Even though yeah it was pulled through the mud that was because of flaws in the system design, not the actual train, as of me now since they have been changing some things, like speed regulations on different parts of the line yes it can br slower but its better in my perspective than before. Just dont take it too hard on ottawa’s lrt, i find it being unique not bad, but good
And to answer Euro’s question, it was Ottawa’s chouce of using the lrt. Even though subways are superior. Let me just take the example, the ttc subway, in its early phases yes it was flawed but it DID improove, same with Ottawa’s lrt
One problem you didn't mention was that a large number of Ottawa commuters don't seem able to figure out that you have to let people off the train before you get on, and that you should move away from the doors when you're far from your destination and toward them as you approach it.
Wow, Thank you for bringing this up! In Vancouver we are still grappling with this rather simple concept. I was in Washington DC and they moved like a fine ballet to make room for people exiting before entering.
As someone from Beijing, I have to say Canadians really don't know how to let passengers exit first.
To be fair they are the same with buses
@@calumashleymcdonough8955 DC makes it rather idiot proof with there announcement” please allow passengers to exit before boarding, when boarding move to the center of the car”. A message every train system should have for there trains
@@NotAJosh No, it just common sense. North Americans aren‘t just used to Transit.
Reece: "Subways can't have grade crossings."
The CTA: *laughs maniacally while crossing the tracks in a residential neighbourhood*
You skipped the crucial ”typically” from the start of that quote
@@3liju also the cta system in general is quite old and at the time that forward planning looking at things like grade separation was less common. You see it a lot in London where stations that should be connected aren’t because of their age and lack of forward thinking.
Yeah I saw that. In Chicago some of the L train lines have street crossings. Lol
@@JacobOhlssonBudinger to be fair to London, the density of stations is insane and means that there is no need to physically connect all stations. Most of these are connected for fare purposes.
@@MikayeYakovlev I know, I do live here. Just saying it’s kinda inconvenient to have two Edgware Road stations right next to eachother and not have them linked for a decent change
As an Ottawa resident, this is a beautifully explained and thorough video. Good stuff bro
He's trolling us by wearing his Maple Leafs shirt while talking about Ottawa though... :)
Haha that's just a UofT shirt
@@zilla80 given the state of the Leafs, I'm figuring he's wearing it ironically
While I think that the fully built system will be a lot better, what’s frustrating about the first year is how the issues (cramped platform design, low floor configurations, poor weather proofing, and horrific transfers) compounded on each other to make the passenger experience truly miserable. When everything is build out and more reliable I doubt these will be issues, but stage 2 can’t come quickly enough :P
People seem to forget that issues during the first year of service are super common to every rapid-transit systems in North America. Take the Montreal-Metro and the Toronto Subway, the lines were plagued with issues during their first years. It goes to show that no matter what their budget is there will always be issues, that's just how the design/implementation procedure goes. Transit in Ottawa will definitely get better over time.
@@sauvanto9316 I don’t think anyone expects everything to be perfect day one (and people in Ottawa like to complain about everything eg nimbys complaining about the noise) but I do think there were substantial issues over and above normal growing pains that could have been avoided with better planning.
@@sauvanto9316 In Ottawa there used to be a brt system instead of the light rail and it had to be closed for the Lrt to be built causing bus travel times to be slower so Ottawa expected the O train to be as reliable as the brt
modern transit in ottawa is already 40 years too late
@@sauvanto9316 The system still has issues from trains recently derailing, to issues with switches and train wheels not being properly serviced causing flat spots. It has not just been a 1st year issue. In fact, there is a hearing on-going right now to look into what happened and why this system continues to be plagued by issues.
In my view, Ottawa's only real mistake in building this system was not adopting Alstom Metropolis Light Metro rolling stock with platform screen doors in the vein of the Montreal REM, which would allow for much higher capacity and more safety for commuters. Furthermore, I wish they had followed the lead of Edmonton in building out their stations for much higher capacity at the outset. Nonetheless, I love my city's Transit system and believe it will be a phenomenal long term development for the city! Thanks again for the excellent content you both, keep it coming - hope to see you in Ottawa again soon to follow the Stage 2 development of Ottawa's O-Train!
I feel like Ottawa’s stations are built for a pretty high capacity of use, especially the three downtown ones
The underground stations are also 2 cars long, they can be extended up to 2 5 module cars from the current 2 4 module cars though.
@@RMTransit Thank you for correcting me, deleted my inaccurate comment. Haven't lived in Ottawa for a while so I was probably just misremembering a detail I had heard during the planning phases.
Thanks for the video, it's nice to see how my home towns transit is coming along :)
@@RMTransit The downtown underground platforms strike me as being rather narrow in spots, which might not be an issue when there's only one line using it as long as the trains are frequent enough to keep people moving. However when Stage 2 kicks off and you have people waiting for a particular train going west (to either Moodie or Algonquin) I can see it turning into an issue.
And then there's the highly questionable decision to have the Airport link just be a spur forcing you to transfer trains *twice* to get downtown.
Edmonton is the last LRT system that I would want to emulate lol. their decision to go underground in phase 1 with those big platforms youre a fan of set their system back at least 20 years when you compare it with their neighbours to the south.
The tracks between Lees and Hurdman are so loud lol
The fatal OC Transpo bus-Via train collision in south Ottawa in 2013, also at a level crossing, may have added to the push for grade separation.
That is what happened. NCC was refusing to talk to the city about how go be between Dominion station and Lincoln Fields (city originally wanted LF to be the western terminus, digging under the SJAM parkway). So the city decided to end at tunney's, but that also left the possibility of needing to street run to get to LF in stage 2, so they had to get a train that could do that. Then 6 months after construction was that crash.
OC transpo bus drivers lack of proper training in the double decker bus in resource to 2 bus accidentally causing death.
Anyone have experience driving a 3Ton can easy drive a 5Ton Truck & BUS.
Double decker bus extra heavy axle required 1.8 - up 2.5x typical stoping distance in the same travel speed a normal 40bfoot buses.
Double decker bus = 2.5 full length bus weight.
Designed to travel in City with less than 50Km/H preferably 40Km/h with the optimal braking performance.
Anyone call hired a good bus drivers. Until lives are lost. Bus driver never speed. = Lack of understanding brake distance. In heavy vehicles brake distance is very important.
New Flyer hybrid bus use electronics to charge the bus & provided full brake assistant at 35 % or more brake pressure.
Ottawa already had the fully grade separated transit way, which made repurposing a no-brainer, at least up to UOttawa from the east and Lebreton Flats from the west. Given how congested the surface routes were already, I don't think that they had any choice about the tunnel through downtown.
Yep
@@TamaraWiens One of the reasons they switched from transitway to LRT was to get the ridiculously huge number buses off the downtown surface streets. I doubt people would have been pleased if they'd just replaced all the buses with really long streetcars.
Wow this channel is great. My partner and I are applying for express entry and we're car adverse, so getting overviews of different transit systems throughout Canada is a fantastic resource.
Finland has full low car street cars :)
This content is EXTREMELY good. Very informative, clear and concise, and cut with great footage. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Thank you so much for explaining all of this. Excellent!
Great video RM!
Thank-you Reece. Another informative Vlog. I think most or all cities in Canada would kill for an O-Train. A real learning experience in rapid transit design. It can only get better. Cheers.
Thank you for this really well researched video
Thanks Calum!
Well done - you hit the proverbial nail on the head. It will be most interesting to see the system as it matures and the "hardware" problems are sorted-out.
Thank you for a very informative video.
Weirder than the Norristown High Speed Line?
It runs a half-hourly interurban service through philly suburbs using 1-2 car tram sized vehicles with on board fare collection, except they’re high platform, powered by third rail, and run a fully grade separated route. Pretty bizarre IMO, but I kinda love just how weird it is.
Ah yes, I know that line well. Took it once to see a friend of mine who was attending Bryn Mawr at the time. She kept referring to the transit system as "The SEPTA."
Or the d line on Boston. Fully grade separated, but has in board fare collection
@@robk7266 the D line in Boston is grade separated from cars, but not pedestrians (not even when it’s underground), so it’s just a light rail imo
@@jg-7780 fair enough. Another couple of systems I was thinking are the Metrolink in St Louis, and lynx in Charlotte. While not exactly grade separated, they have Independent right of ways with grade crossings (the CTA, Newcastle Metro, Rotterdam Metro, and the Oslo Metro also have grade crossings).
Thanks for this interesting, outsiders view. We get caught in echo chambers, and sometimes lose sight of certain positives/negatives and historical contexts for our own decisions.
Great video, I like learning about the lines even as an Ottawa resident! I’m likely going to be building the entirety of Ottawa in Minecraft for a video series, so this helps a lot :)
Your videos are fantastic and really help people (like myself) who have no idea what these transit systems are to understand their pros and cons, why they're like that, and where there going?
Hey, I loved this Video! I´m not from Canada nor I live in Canada, but I´ve visited Ottawa some years ago when only Line 2 was operating and I loved it and felt like home... (Maybe, because the Lint Trains have the same design like here in Germany ^^ ). And when I saw the videos about Line 1, I really liked it and still do! It is a wonderful system, which just need time. It is the same here in Düsseldorf, my hometown. New lines need time to fully be accepted. And I think, I can compare our system to the Ottawa system. Not in length or so, but we also have two different Train systems for our Light Rail. One, which is very similar to Line 1, but with Street interactions (^^) and an high-floor system which is going more out the system but also can be used on some low floor areas. Very interesting! But as I said, new things needs time to get accepted!
Maybe the line two trains felt familiar to you because the first ones were bought second hand from Germany!
Very interesting video by someone who knows the subject.
I’ve been railfanning for 60 years, but not a former.
I like “big trains”, but my first love, from age 12 in Montreal (1947), has always been streetcars and electric transit in general.
I am due to visit Ottawa in the fall of 2021 (COVID permitting) for a conference and this helped a lot. Thanks.
Amazing to me that LRVs hitting vehicles and pedestrians pressured Ottawa into fully grade separating the O-Train.
Living in Melbourne (and using the tram system pretty frequently) one of the biggest killers of service reliability is cars hitting trams - but that seems to be regarded as an acceptable state of affairs, as grade separations are *very* few and far between. Even Route 96 (which runs in its own dedicated lane separated by concrete dividers for most of its length) has to wait at traffic lights and is occasionally hit by right-turning cars.
Would really love to see the conversion of some of Melbourne’s high patronage tram routes converted to a proper, fully grade separated light rail system like the O-Train. Despite the criticisms you’ve pointed out, it looks like a system with a great deal of potential.
One of the overarching issues in Ottawa is the aversion to level crossings. Ever since a double decker bus travelling on the busway slammed into a train the city the city government is on a campaign to eliminate all crossings. Even a dead end industrial spur that was used maybe once a week has had expensive barriers and better lights installed.
Most of Ottawa's system was already grade and separate from city roads. The train is and was always slated to be built using the existing Transit-way.
As for the tunnel downtown, long lines of buses being backed-up at the Rideau Centre during rush hour, eventually won over the argument to put a tunnel downtown to avoid any issues with traffic delays.
It would be really nice to see a video discussing the transit model of the Trillium Line; using abandoned rail lines or branch lines with DMUs to create an affordable "regional/urbanish" transit line. Some other examples that could be looked at are the San Diego Sprinter, Capital MetroRail, S.M.A.R.T. The Trillium Line was built for a measly $59 Million dollars, its certainly an interesting model to discuss the advantages/disadvantages.
It’s crazy how the Trillium Line (Line 2) only cost $50 million to build (the infrastructure itself was even less I believe at ~$20 million), and managed to deliver a high frequency regional rail for Ottawa by using abandoned rail corridor.
Please have a look at the “Stadtbahn Karlsruhe “. The Karlsruhe Model means that Urban Streetcars go over national railway lines and to other city centers...
The first ever TRAMTRAIN ...
They used existing tracks running in an existing trench and tunnel. They had to double the track in a few areas, build the stations and rail yard, and repair the bridge near Carlton University, but apart from that the only major expense was the trains themselves.
Great video! Love to see Ottawa get some coverage :)
I would argue unless you're a Carleton Student, Line 2 (the OG o train) isn't really that great. Kind of annoying that for the longest time our only train system didn't really go near downtown, and stopped before the airport. Glad they are finally extending it
It was and will be a convenient way to get from the South Keys area to west of the downtown. The transitway takes you northeast to Hurdman and through the downtown to go west.
I haven't returned to Ottawa since my Carleton days. The problem was he single tunnel under Dows Lake meaning that the trains could only pass at the University station.
Have they fixed the problem?
It’s been great for Carleton students to go grocery shopping and pick up a burrito at south keys. Very convenient.
@@jimbobogie8204 They added double tracks at two points south of Bayview and north of Greenboro so trains could pass one another, permitting them to run up to four trains at 12-minute intervals on average. With Stage 2 construction they're making a lot more of it double tracked, but the Dow's Lake tunnel is still a bottleneck.
It started service through Carleton shortly after I finished there.
It has gotten, alot better then.
2019 and 2020, I have to admit.
Improvement in 2019 is a good, solid result. 2020 of course has been the year of people not commuting into the city as much and those that still do being more likely to revert to a single-occupancy personal car to avoid the virus.
Couldn’t get much worse ☺️
As someone who takes the Line 1 often, I like that I can get from St Laurent station to Tunneys Pasture in under 20 minutes, while pre-LRT it would take 45 minutes to a hour assuming you have quick loading and unloading and you dont hit a lot of red lights along the route
On vacation in Ottawa and I like the system a lot. About a 800m walk to Lees and a km or two from the stations to where we want to go but speeds life up, clean, easy to use and fast. The bonus is the integrated bike, hiking trails near or even inside the O stations
Line 2 is actually a bigger problem because it has been under-designed. Phase 2, which makes it more of a regional train, actually maintains the idea that a large portion of the bus riders are directed away from it. The planners knew that because they can't increase train frequency. So most bus riders pass by Line 2 stations to go to Line 1 at Hurdman. Line 2 is confined by its one track design, which limits frequency and capacity. We spend $600M for Phase 2 without addressing the one track issue, which also creates the awkward airport connection. Also, because it doesn't run downtown, it creates this double transfer situation that is far from ideal for riders, and in the long-run it will cause problems at the Bayview transfer, when Line 1 trains will eventually exceed capacity to deal with the less frequent Line 2 passengers. In the past, this was not a problem because few used Line 2 to go downtown. This changes with Phase 2 when many riders from the south end will have no choice but to go downtown via the Bayview transfer and since we have a growing city of 100,000+ out there, it will become a bigger and bigger problem in the future. There will be lots of ribbon cutting in 2022 on Line 2 but the end result will be underwhelming.
Strongly agree
I agree with everything you've written - but at least double tracking is still being considered as part of the long term plan and everything they are building this time takes that into consideration. They shouldn't need to do an extended long term shutdown of the line again to implement that change.
Interesting tidbit: I took some time once to graph this out, and if they double track everything else except the Dows Lake tunnel (the most expensive part) they could actually push frequency up to 6 minutes, maybe 5 depending on how well the new trains can accelerate. With that kind of frequency, they could solve the airport spur issue.
@@toddoddity3976 The history of Line 2 tells us that full double tracking will require another lengthy shutdown. Every significant upgrade has required it. I would rather see the city invest in a Bank Street subway over spending another $1B on double tracking Line 2. Bank Street will provide a much better north-south transit route and for once, serve urban parts of the city.
$600 million really sounds like a bargain, compared to the +$12 billion Toronto is spending on Eglinton LRT (as of 2019)...
I took a bus from South Keys onto Hunt Club the other week and got a look at the Trillium Line's extension. The work on the line south of Greenboro appears to include doubling the track.
In seville, spain there is a similar system. A metro/ full separated train using trams
I'm in Ottawa commuter I work downtown I live near Blair and I will say that taking the train is way better than what the bus used to be
If the O Train is "strange," the Green Line in Los Angeles is bonkers. It runs from Norwalk to Redondo Beach with no grade crossings, mostly in a freeway median, but still uses overhead power and standard LRVs.
Note that when the Crenshaw/LAX line is completed, it is likely to be combined with or duplicate some or all of the Green Line, and the new line is partly at grade, partly underground, and partly above ground, making the combination more like LA Metro's other light rail systems with a mishmash of street running, at grade with crossbars, underground, and above ground sections.
@@Geotpf - I sort of get your point about interlining between K Line (Crenshaw) and C Line (Green), but switching from pantographs to 3rd rail is not hard. The Blue Line in Boston does it, the CTA Skokie Swift line used to do it, and it was very common on historic lines like the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin and the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee.
The problem with catenary is that it is more expensive to put up and a lot more expensive to maintain than third rail. Let's not forget that all the stations on the C Line (L.A. Green Line) are high-platform, and no pedestrian crossings are allowed or required. But that was the decision made over 30 years ago and so it goes.
Using overhead does allow a train to run from the A line (Blue Line) to the C line, although only between Los Angeles and Norwalk, unless the train reverses to go to, say, LAX.
I live not too far from the O-Train and it makes me so warm inside seeing the beautiful city I lived and grew up in :')
Used to commute through Tunney's (from LRT to Bus) and it was indeed very very congested. Fortunately I am small and nimble so could squeeze behind garbage cans and railings where other people couldn't to sort of shimmy my way out of the LRT platform and onto the stairs up to the busses
Definitely could use another video detailing all the issues that have emerged about the original contract, and the more recent derailments etc. I love the convenience of Line 1 when it works, and I'm eager for more light rail, but not the mismanagement around it.
I would also like to add that the O-Train inherits a lot of Ottawa's baked-in transit design oddities by following the Transitway. The Transitway has always bent OC Transpo around it, despite a meandering route that often doesn't really serve the main axes of population or commerce (outside Ottawa U-Rideau and the Via Rail-Orleans corridor, which was better planned). Examples: Hurdman as a hub in the middle of sfa, the big empty of Lebreton Flats, the Scott St. leg which neither intersects nor gets close to major centres, and the Billings Bridge to Hurdman runaround before you can take the train downtown if you live in the southeast. The O-Train has been saddled with two odd routes because they were seen as low-hanging fruit.
If serious rail transit planning had started decades earlier, I'd like to think many of these issues could have been addressed. Maybe a main subway/elevated line following the Queensway, a Bank Street line turning east to Ottawa U and looping back south to the Queensway at the northern end and turning west to the airport at the southern terminus, surface light rail north-south along Woodroffe, Riverside and St-Laurent (with a Carleton U spur on the Riverside line), and east-west lines along Baseline-Heron-Walkley and Hunt Club. Something like that would have solved not only the transit routing problems, but the major traffic congestion bottlenecks of the city. Just my crayon plan, but one can dream.
Just reading this now, but a thoughtful dream-build out. Unfortunately, Ottawa's decisions are mostly influenced by people who live in totally car dependent suburb or exurbs that are part of geographic "Ottawa" but that are not within the city itself. So those new lines - Bank Street, surface light rail through Ottawa's old streetcar neighbourhoods, the southwest and southeast...not going to happen. It matters more to the city to build the LRT/Metro thingy to Barrhaven in Stage 3 (not funded, hopefully never funded) rather than building frequent transit service within the city proper.
Just saw this, and I agree. I live in Lowertown East - that is to say, about a 25 minute walk from Rideau Centre - and Rideau is my closest train stop! Even closer than the uOttawa stop, despite the fact I live practically on top of Sandy Hill. As a result, in addition to having a job not on the route, I've taken the train a grand total of... once, since its inception.
It's worse for Vanier residents. 5k from downtown Ottawa and the train doesn't go anywhere near them. They'd have to bus way out of their way to Hurdman to pick it up - or, do what they actually do, cram themselves into the three or four bus routes that slowly meander downtown in the stop-and-go traffic on Montreal road, Beechwood/Murray, McArthur, and Rideau. Vanier, a historically working class/poor neighbourhood, is extraordinarily car dependant given its location. The transitway and LRT both seem built to ferry suburban civil servants to the core, but does a poor job at serving the core itself.
Now, my job is in Gatineau, and my real pie-in-the-sky dream would be for a more integrated transit system between the two cities - but I know the interprovincial aspect makes that complicated. At present, if I took transit to work, I'd be taking three buses and 45 minutes+. So I drive, and it takes 15 minutes.
Anyway, that's a lot of words to say that you have pinpointed one of the bigger issues with the LRT and Ottawa transit in general - they haven't figured out how to put the trains where the people are, and the whole thing seems to be more targeted towards suburban commuters than it is for urban use from people who live in the core itself. Thus, core residents end up either crowded on slow buses picking their way through the car traffic or - driving.
The transit way stations probably also looked super impressive and modern with their bubbly red piping. Today they look dated and the glass has yellowed.
I wish they made more timeless and simple outdoor stations for the LRT. Ones with roofs so that a heated floor was not necessary for the winter to melt snow.
That's nice... In Athens we have a suburban railway with double track throughout but we may even have to wait 40 minutes on the busiest line, the airport line
I remember when the trillium line was the "O-train". Now its not even worth mentioning lol. I always liked taking that from Bayview to Carleton. :D
The O-Train's Trillium Line ran from "the middle of nowhere to the back of beyond," i.e., from Greenboro to Bayview. I worked on Parliament Hill. It was still faster to take a 97 to Metcalfe Station, and that has not improved with the need to transfer to the Confederation Line at Hurdman, thence to Parliament. (It was and still is faster still to ride my bicycle.)
Line 2 actually shutdown a year ago for a complete overhaul. I think the plan was 2+ years and would extend to the airport.
Well south of the airport, but a spur will connect South Keys to the airport & conference centre. Unfortunately it means two transfers to get downtown.
The tunnel under Dows Lake was always a problem. The "solution" was the "Carleton Split". If they could "double up" Line 1 then it would be relatively to take turns on the Dows Lake tunnel.
Chicago has one non grade separated "subway" crossing on the Brown Line near Kimball.
And the pink line, and the purple line, and the yellow line
Really good video. Nailed a lot of points. One thing I'd add is the negative effects of politics on the system; poor decisions made due to political convenience, rather than what is best
It's been awhile since I have heard of any problems with the O-Train. (I lived in Ottawa in the 1990's, and love to keep informed about what's happening in the city.) I hope that things are going better with this system.
Only because the ridership hasn’t come back and because the train breaking down is no longer front page material. These videos are parroting what the mayor states concerning the LRT. However the system is a lemon, especially when you consider the changes that were made to the bus scheduling at the launch and the contracting for the second phase. The LRT is going to replace a single bus from downtown to the airport with three trains by design once the second phase is implemented because city council is beholden to the taxi industry.
There was no uproar over this but a bridge at Tunney’s Pasture for the first phase, which made the news for its low cost and different building materials, had to be removed and replaced for the second phase. The first bridge was built so that there was no space free under it but the second phase required trains to go under it, causing the removal and rebuild.
The stations at each end of the first phase were built to the size required once phase two was implemented, meaning that they were, and would still be if ridership wasn’t so low, too small for all of the foot traffic coming trough them.
If you were to go through the history of the project, instead of looking just looking at the “completed” system running at low capacity and listening to sound bites from the mayor who needs the project to be a success then you will see a different story.
Drove past the eastern extension today...once Phase 2 is complete it will be very useful
One thing I've long wondered is why not have stations (at least busy interchange ones) with a central platform and side platforms as well, so you can open all the doors. People would enter from the side and exit through the centre. Another idea is to have three sets of tracks at busy stations, so trains going in the busy direction at given time of day would get the central track, allowing two trains at a time.
I really like all the nerdy detail about transit vehicle trade offs and issues. Never seen that before. We added a couple of Swiss model regional type trains in the Dallas Fort Worth area. They’re only regional because of our low population density and massive car culture, but that’s the story of American transit away from a few big cities. Our DART light rail spent a bunch of money on station modifications for partial low floor cars a while ago.
The trains purchased for TexRail are the same Ottawa will be using on Line 2 (Albeit Ottawa’s will have two times as many doors) Stadler Flirts are nice
@@RMTransit we’ve also got some Stadlers on the Denton A train. I wonder if they have coupler adapters if they have to tow one. I feel like I’m in an All The Stations video whenever I push the door buttons. My normal commute, however, involves old Canadian heavy rail double deckers and diesel locos, followed by DARTs Kinki Sharyos, so I’m used to older stock.
Would it be possible to make a video breaking down the other systems that use low floor tram trains on a fully grade separated metro system? That would be really interesting see the other systems. So far I have only found out about 1 or 2 more in Europe.
In the Netherlands, quite a lot of trams, metro's and some trains have equal floors to the platforms
We're not talking about the height of the floor relative to the platform, we're talking about the height relative to the rails. Low floor vehicles are when the floor is less than about 50cm above the rail.
Thankyou for the hard work you put in.
Can you do a new follow up to the O train breaking down for 5+ days because of ice build up on the main power line. Ottawa receives the most freezing rain in the world.
Hannover, in Germany has the same sytem where the light rail goes underground in certain areas and become subway.
This kinda reminds me of the D Line in Boston. It is completely grade separated, but has on board fare collection.
This is the second recent video I've seen where you've mentioned the low number of doors - at 14 per side, per train, I don't think I agree at all that there aren't enough doors. They are a little oddly spaced throughout the train though which I find a tad awkward while waiting on the platform (although the new ground markings help with that issue).
Nah I don’t agree, Calgary has 16 doors and arguably less of a single station crush
Didn't say it wouldn't, but it's not the only thing
Use Siemens S70 trains the door spacing is more sensical
@@RMTransit As long as we're talking low-floor vehicles, the bogies (or individual wheels...) will constrain the placement of doors. I thin the Siemens Avenio tram is the least bad in terms of door number and regularity (2 doors every 9 meters) but I'm not sure this design is for for higher speeds.
Bombardier's Flexity Freedom, as ordered for Eglington Crosstown, is probably the worst possible design with doors 10 meters apart (I can't imagine how this will work on a very busy line).
They have these in the U.K. in Sheffield but there’s also a section of street running along with the more mainline section, but fully grade separated seems strange
Great video except most stations aren’t nice in terms of usability. I was shocked when I found out none of them had enclosed shelters (except in the tunnel).
In the grand scheme of things this won’t matter a ton since trains will come every 3-4 minutes
@@RMTransit I hope you’re right but that hasn’t been my experience to date. Also I don’t think 3-4 mins is the plan for Sundays and holidays (could be wrong).
@@RMTransit I should have added the bigger issue is waiting for bus connections once you get off the train. Many of those don’t come nearly as frequently as 3-4 mins. Some are at least a 30 min wait but many I believe are longer.
Well gotta improve the frequencys
@@andrewg9457 Except for Sundays/holidays and late nights (9pm-12am), the frequency is 30-35 min max for buses with most routes within the core operating on around 15-20 min frequency.
Boston Green Line Type 10 LRV is planned to be fully low-floor.
If you think this is weird you should look at what they are going to do with the tram trains in Karlsruhe. They currently operate as an S-Bahn outside of the city proper and as trams inside the city. However they are going to put the trams underground in the city center (they are actually almost done with construction, or at least they claim to be) to operate like a Metro there.
Honestly, as of me being a citizen of downtown ottawa i have gotten used to it since i have used it for just over 2 years, yes it may be *absolutely noisy* on some districts but thats because from what i heard the project was rushed and corners were cut in the literal blueprint, which also is why there were incidents on the cut cornered places, example, if you live in ottawa you sure should know the tremblay - hurdman curve, loud, and screeching, this was one of those places where designs pushed such small of a train beyond its limits. But there is a good side to using lrt. Unlike subway, if someone falls onto the rails by accident or deliberately the gettinf back on the platform is not a high jump. Anyways thats my perspective from being a ottawa citizen and using the line 1 and 2 for atleast 2 years
In Medellin they are going to build a new light rail line on the west, has a lot of stations planed and construction has “begun” already, but, I’m quite afraid that they are going to use low floor trams for such an important line that, surely, is going to have a lot of people moving in it. Maybe this could change and use high floor trains like those on LA idk.
You’re correct about the 70% low floor trams. But otherwise, this line is no different than the D branch of The Green line in Boston, which has been operating since 1959. A former rail line that was repurposed as LRT rapid transit and hooked into the existing subway system. Fully grade separated, running through (or past) a golf course, numerous back yards, and a town square. I take it for granted, but worth the $2 for the sightseeing alone.
I’m pretty sure there are ped crossings, it also doesn’t have CBTC so there are still major differences
Have you ever looked into the Metro-Link in the St. Louis Region (MO, IL)?
I have always thought it should have shared rolling stock with the TTC Subway. I am an Ottawa resident who has lived in Toronto. I consider that Union Station to Eglinton opened in 1954 with 4 cars per train on a 15 minute cycle and now operates 6 car trains at crush capacity during rush hour with a 5 minute or less cycle. I do not see how the vastly smaller Ottawa LRT trains and tunnels will handle growth in ridership.
Also, for political and maybe geological issues, the train runs under Queen Street, which is too far north to be convenient distance from a lot of downtown Ottawa which grew up along the Bus Rapid Transit system along Albert (Westbound) and Slater (Eastbound). Given the politics of this city - including unique issues like the NCC - I am just amazed we have anything at all.
Regarding the use of a low deck, their use remove limitations of future expansion. If a future extension or line provides grade level service, same or similar trains can be used.
You can do that with high platforms too tho
You know who really needs more time? London’s Crossrail...
Good comments on the operational challenges of the O-Train system. I agree with your observations. However, the system still fails on many fronts as you no doubt know. It's unfortunate that such an important project was done on the cheap and has so many problems.
It was and is not cheap.
i’m glad that line 1 is finally going to orleans and wayyyyyy later into kanata and barhaven
yeah i like line 2 and also they drive so smoothly on line 2 they don’t even need safety bars but it’s closed for the extension :/
The reason why you can’t normally walk across subway tracks (and this includes SkyTrain tracks!) is because of the third rail, or power rail, that supplies electricity to the trains. It’s located at track level and it’s like a live wire- it’ll zap you if you touch it! But the O-Train’s electric trains use a catenary system instead, which means it’s powered by overhead wires using a pantograph, which is what Vancouver’s trolleys use
also humans find ways to be idiots
somehow given a glimmer of opportunity, a human will get themselves killed
Wonder what he would say today after two railroad derailments and several breakdowns since this video, including the tunnel track repair; not to mention the city's choice to pursue investigation and consideration of dropping the contract?
You're absolutely right in highlighting the problems at Tunneys Pasture station as a big part of the problem with the system, and I think the planners failed to give adequate consideration to its role as the western terminus (albeit a temporary one). It's not designed to be a major terminus, so making the transfer between bus and train is poorly designed and results in really, really bad foot traffic management. This is compounded due to the delay in the western extension, which will e mean Tunneys will serve as the terminus for a couple extra years.
in montreal, they have red, orange, blue lines etc. and the trains are all the same color blue, in boston, red line trains are red, ditto for orange, blue and green lines.
In Montreal it's orange, green, blue and yellow.
"After a few incidents involving cars vs trains"
Well, actually it was an OC Transpo Bus going over a crossing having an F40PH ram it at full speed, killing 7 just about 5 minutes from where I currently live, so, yeah.
Collab with Vanishing Underground please!! :D
My solution to the O-Train problem is quite simple. First step is to build a tramway that compliments the Trillium and Confederation line - have it become a radial line so people can travel to different neighborhoods without going downtown. Next take the Citidas Spirit trains, and use them on the tramway - the Citidas is a tram and must be treated as such. Next, retrofit all stations to accept high-floor trains. Next, use a fleet of Alstom Metropolis trains for the confederation line, and call it a day.
Such a costly retrofit ain't happening, at least not in our lifetime. I wouldn't promote it either, as that money could be better spent on better bus service and new infrastructure. As for the radial line idea, that is essentially what the Baseline BRT will accomplish by connecting Bayshore and Algonquin College to the Southeast Transitway and Hurdman, which I think would provide high quality and high capacity service at a fraction of the cost of a new rail line.
That doesn’t sound like a “simple” solution...
@@Highbrid11 Yea it should be promoted. The nations capital deserves better.
I’m gonna be honest, I’ve lived in Ottawa since September, and use the train on a relatively weekly bases, I am yet to experience a single problem with it. And I honestly prefer it to the busses because I actually know when the trains come (and I have never waited more than 5 minutes for one).
this aged like a glass of warm milk
It sounds a little bit like a Gordian knot: the frequency cannot be upgraded because people tend to run to the carts and bash the doors and all want to get onto the same line, because the frequency is not high enough.
The solution operate at a higher frequency.
The other solution: build more lines to spread out the traffic.
How'd you get the Canada Line map?
you are really funny!
Good video. I live in the National Capital Region and find this interesting but have not used the train as it is currently available in my area and won't be open . However, its important to note several things: first of all, as far as I know there are no plans to extend transit (either buses or trains) to the extreme east, west or south, second, at the moment, there are no firm plans to link up OC Transpo and STO so it would be possible to transfer from an OC Transpo bus or train to the equivalent on the Quebec side of the river (and then do the reverse) - many people live on the Ontario side and work in Quebec and vice-versa. Third, the buses and train are not integrated at many stations and, for fare purposes, they are not considered the same. Finally, the rolling stock for the new line (supposedly designed for use in winter) has not worked very well. If anyone doubts what I've said, much of this information is freely available.
Most of this was touched on in the video.
@@RMTransit I'll have to watch again - I don't remember.
So Ottawa’s *”LRT”* ( only line 1, the confederation line ) is a tram, a subway/metro, a lightrail, and a train?
All of those things are trains. It's not a tram, since it's never on streets with vehicular traffic. It is light rail, and in some places it goes through tunnels like a subway.
Grade separated could also mean elevated, which is a lot quicker and cheaper to construct. It was one of the preferred options but was quickly shot down by the politicians who loved the idea of a subway.
I really would like to know how you come to the conclusion that the Trillium line has „Swiss style infrastructure“. Firstly non-electrified railroads are unheard of in Switzerland, with the exception of a few Diesel Multiple Units (DMU) that penetrate Swiss territory from France and a few shunter locos the operations of the Swiss Federal Railways is 100% electric. Secondly the DMUs in use on the Trillium line are basically identical to DMUs that are in use in Germany
Pretty sure I said Swiss Style operation, it’s literally the embodiment of organization before electronics before concrete
Makes sense to build it in the transit way.
What do you mean with "swiss style service"? What's swizzerland famous for in terms of train operation?
Incredible timed operations
@@RMTransit Can confirm that... one reason I never wanna be the guy having to poke around in any swiss schedule, those dependencies scare me
May I add two points? First, Ottawa's Line 1 had some VERY serious teething issues. These are being/have been worked out. I am not aware of any major transit system that opened without teething issues. Many people in Ottawa were complaining without knowing all the facts. (And yes, blame can be applied to the city, to Alstom, and RTG/RTM) Second, prior to COVID, I noticed that, quite frequently, people would arrive on the platform and stay relatively close to the stairs they descended. What happened was that there were huge crowds at each end of the platform and hardly anyone in the middle section. O-Train staff had to tell people to move down the length of the platform, but I noticed that some people didn't seem to understand. As a result, the train had seven sets of doors available, but the middle three or four weren't seeing as many passengers as the door sets at each end. More teething issues, I guess.
I think this was discussed in my last video?
@@colincameron1878 No, the derailment are the result of poor management caused by poor decisions by people who didn't have a clue about how to build a railroad.
So, the Province of Ontario spent more than a year and millions of dollars on a Royal Commission to find out what went wrong with the O-Train. They should have just asked you - - - you explained everything perfectly in one 10 minute video!!
I would argue that the O train trams are just that. Trams rather than tram trains. Tram trains usually are high floor platform access with level boarding like Manchester's Metrolink or Koln-Bonn StadtBahn (U-Bahn) cars Ottawa's trams look like TTC's streetcars (German Strassebahn cars) with kerb level low platforms
the O-Train line 1 rolling stock, the Alsthom Citadis Spirit, is derived from the Citadis Dualis. and those are 100% low floor and run on mainline railways in france, look at Trams T4 and T11 in Paris for example...
The "O" in O-Train stands for "Occasional" as in the train provides Occasional Service.
People love line 2 cause it’s through it’s teething period. Since it’s daily ridership is about what line 1 can do in an hour, it’s easier for people to forget the first few months after the last upgrade went horribly... not saying it isn’t great, it was cheap and overall serves its purpose well, just that all new systems have trouble(and I guarantee it will have issues again when it relaunches after stage 2), so not really fair to compare a brand new Line 1 to a well established line 2...
The part of the Ottawa LRT operations that confuse me - especially after they ran into early trouble -is why run 2 car 98meter trains at 4-5 minute headways - instead of going for 1 care 49 meter trains every 2 to 2.5 minutes. Yes you would need a little more staff - but it would also mean a single car failure- would remove 1 not 2 cars... and mean much better service - with only marginally more staff. Later - as the line gets extended- and development happens along the line - and hence ridership grows - you could go to 2 car trains - when you are at the point that this means 3 minute headway... but...
Living in Ottawa, I have riden the LRT Twice, wich is twice too many.
The Otrain is good..kinda makes a racket of noise on sharp turns, or when it's super cold but its a fast ride fr Tunneys to Blair. Much faster that bus system.
I don't understand though why they chose to have stations that are open the elements, sort of a fancy roof but open- it's dropping to -23°C tonight.
If they are heating sections of these spaces, the cost must be insane. They should have thought of winter. The tiles should have been more textured for rainy, snow days- super slippery!
Rideau & Parliament station signs are weird for several exits info- they need to clarify with maps.
But the cars are very clean these days!
They don't heat the stations, but there is a heating system in the floor, so it may get wet but it won't get icy.
The lack of enclosed/heated stations is really bad in my view and dissuades me from using the service in cold weather.
mmmm glad I can still afford a car er truck (potholes galor) ... but I'll probably have to buy another one soon
I want to know your thoughts on the vibration and noise that the train makes everytime to makes a turn. The sound and vibration that comes into the cabin is absolutely dreadful. I have taken trains before in other cities and I have never experience this kind of noise and vibration like the Ottawa O-train.
Grade separation was established 40 years ago with the bus Transitway. Only Mayor O'Briens plan was to use the street. 10 years ago when the current mayor was elected he went back to the grade separation.
Good day. I feel the need to make some corrections to some assumptions in the video as I understand them living in the city.
First of all, Line 2 (the original O-Train) is not a regional service. It is nothing like the Go-Train in Toronto at all as it does not leave the city of Ottawa limits at all. It started at Greenboro (a suburb south of downtown) and ran north to Lebreton Flats and connected with the existing Transit-way at each end, which was built over many years to be a separate bus system completely separated from the rest of the city roads. Line 2 is now being extended further south to the Airport and Riverside South, another suburban area. So no, this train is not a regional line at all. They used an old train corridor which was mostly just a single track and made a passing area at Carleton University when that station was first built. That is what restricted the amount of time and number of trains. They have since doubled the tracks in more areas south of Carleton U and just South of Lebreton Flats to allow trains to pass (they were up to 4 trains if I recall correctly), but there are still limits where the train goes under the Canal and Dows Lake North of Carleton U in a tunnel and over the Rideau River just South of Carleton U. The train is also in a ditch north of Carleton U, so not a lot of space for double tracks. I am not sure if the expansion is trying to eliminate these bottle necks or not, but it would be very costly to do so.
The plan for the new Line 1, was to always be built over the transit-way. There were a hand full of areas where the transit-way still used roads, like the Sir John A McDonald parkway but most of the transit-way was separated and other areas of the transit-way were still being separated, like in Barrhaven. On Sir John A, the plan was to run the train, separate from the road, but at grade. Local residents asked if the train could be placed in a ditch, like many areas of the transit-way west of Lebreton Flats. Going further West, the train will be at grade running on it's own dedicated area along the 417 into Kanata. The same is being done heading east into Orleans.
The only forced areas i can think of is this ditch by Sir John A and, maybe the tunnel downtown. Another area the transit-way used city streets was the use of Slater and Albert Streets as part of the transit-way. Building the tunnel was always considered an option, just the most expensive option. The political argument to save money of the day was to keep the line above grade and run along Rideau to Queen and reconnect with the Transit-way just west of Downtown. But there was always a huge issue of bus backups in the downtown area, especially around Rideau Centre where many photos will show upwards of 30 or more busses bumper to bumper from Slater and Elgin to Rideau Centre or from Ottawa U to the Rideau Centre. Eventually, the argument for the tunnel won in order to avoid issues with the trains running through the downtown on the streets like the Transit Way.
As for the system being great. It has been rife with issues from its opening day. There is currently a hearing ongoing looking into what has caused this system so much grief since it opened. From issues with trains derailing, to switches not working, wheels that are not being properly serviced to maintain their round shape, to the issue with the door sensors malfunctioning causing stalled trains at stations. They are many images of swarms of people walking from Tunney's Station to downtown because the system was shut down due to issues.
didn't it just completely derail itself a few days ago? lmao
A lavalier or remote Røde would make your videos more enjoyable as it currently sounds like you're recording in a bathroom stall.
The problem is just a lack of noise foam
Australia has low floor trams in most cities. Canada way behind...
Lol so Canada is behind in having a generally poor technology? I'm advocating against their use in Ottawa to be clear
Keep in mind that they are expanding the whole system west, east, and south, so make sure to make a new video then.
will be interested!
This seems very similar to Edmonton's Velley Line LRT expansion
I find it quite interesting how there is no mention that most of Stage 1 and 2 are running on the existing transitway and BRT, but the alignment for the transitway is really not suited for LRT operations. Creates a lot of unecessary speed reductions and overuse of brakes.
I don’t really think there’s an issue with the alignment tbh
@@RMTransit I'm not familiar with Stage 1 but Stage 2 transitway (West Extension) is really not suited for LRT alignment, many sharp curves that work for busses but not for trains
@@RMTransit Having ridden the LRT and the bus on the transitway prior (for years and years), there are areas where the alignment is problematic. The buses could take turns at a much higher speed than the trains. The area between St-Laurent and Lees is significantly slower in speed due to all the tight turns that follow the old Transitway. And it also generates an incredible amount of noise in some of those tight turns. Far more than I've ever heard on any other train service I've been on.
Don't get me wrong, the system does work pretty well now, and Stage 2 will greatly improve it, more so for the eastern extension (straighter alignment). But in hindsight, there is a certain amount of bureaucracy that lead to some less than ideal decisions. Like the use of low floor trains rather than high floor for a fully segregated system. City councillors just didn't really bother to understand the differences.