Most remarkable thing about this debate, is that people with clearly opposing views, could do it in such a civilised and respectful way. Something that very sadly missing today!
I feel we've lost a lot of common sense and decency. People are so easily offended that they feel entitled to walk out of a room if someone holds a different opinion to theirs.
The civility is better than we see today, but the constant bullshit spewed from the right is the same as we see today. Anyone who is prepared to argue that Reagan was an honest guy or even remotely competent at governance has nothing worthwhile to add to the discourse. Mease accidentally got one thing right. He said Reagan’s legacy is nothing if not SDI. Thirty plus years on SDI remains a childish fantasy and Reagan deserves no legacy.
Hah! How good is this. What an intellectual, smart, witty and above all, civilised debate. Where are the likes of these men now? What a noisy vacuum we live in these days. Tragic. Thanks for uploading.
Perhaps it was so civilised because they're all good friends? They may have some disagreement but they are all centrist liberals who all fundamentally believe in the dominance of the western capitalist system.
@@kiwitrainguy: Christopher Hitchens passed away in 2011, Clive James in 2019, and P.J. O'Rourke in 2022. As of October 7th, 2023, Edwin Meese carries on at 91 years of age.
What a gem I’ve come across. PJ vs Hitch vs Reagan’s Greatest Apologist. Lots of respect and cordiality amongst meaningful intellectuals that could not be repeated in this day and age
I was born in 1977 in the U.K. and remember current affairs broadcasts like this. I was somewhat of a nerd and enjoyed programmes from around the age of 6 or 7 such as this. I recognised in my teenage years (1992 onwards) that open debates changed. Mostly in the "open" aspect, mildy at first. However, I still have faith that we will have no option other than to return to a balanced society.
James did some things brilliantly and other things to mediocrity. Couldn't fake interest in some people and somethings and that is why he was patchy in some TV shows.
The second he turned up at Oxford (looking middle-aged already) a star who even the lecturers were frightened of. Very clever with a sense of humour is such a potent mix. There were people cleverer and people funnier, but when you put them together they are dynamite. An unlikely ladies man too - and often duplicitous with it...
Even allowing for his position on the invasion of Iraq...and now I doubt whether to add a question mark.It is of course ironic to hear him talk about the lies of Reagan ,Trump wasn't the first.
I said this on Liam's other video, and I'll say it again here: I cannot thank you enough for sourcing and uploading this. To anyone reading: please do not post this link in public fora anywhere. That will only risk attracting content copyright strikes. If you want to share it, please only do so in private messages with discreet people you personally know and trust.
@@legalmonkey As you doubtless know, there's a serious cult for all things Hitch here on RUclips, so if you can find a way of circumventing any copyright and try reuploading that video -- maybe by not mentioning his full name or undescoring some letters -- it would go down as well as this upload has.
What a brilliant upload, thanks a lot. Edwin Meese's explanation of the 'Iran initiative' is absolutely astonishing. Somewhere, probably at the end of a bar, Hitchens is still laughing at that.
I liked how Clive would ask Meese , an eyewitness insider , what actually happened, and meanwhile Hitchens stuck to his fabricated conspiracy theories. It’s what you would expect from someone who never even had the civility to respect religious freedom, and I say that as an atheist.
@@roughhabit9085 You're aware that Hitchens cites the accounts of others, all made in public, when questioning the narrative of Meese? As for the comment on religious freedom, I'm astonished you think that Hitchens didn't respect religious freedom.
Oh wow how much am I looking forward to watching this. Its just landed into my youtube front page. What an introduction by Clive James. And these guests won't be easy to handle
The fact that the first 3 intro minutes of this video exist prove that humanity was once in fact, for a brief moment in the 20th century, civilized. Spot on good sirs.
In TV studios, yes. Well-paid middle class people who were always going to be well-paid middle class people. Had a lot more in common than they believed.
@@Longtack55 - That would have been pointless like shooting fish in a barrel- what he would have done is dismantle all the mad premises behind identity politics- particularly the idea that a biological man can become a woman
@@Josette93 Woody Allen "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to be a member"... okay im toying with you. but in all seriousness can you honestly not think of any reason people would not like Australians? (keep in mind all groups have something cringe-worthy and if you say no it will sound disingenuous)
You assume that he is accurate and truthful. He disarms rebuttal by taking control of the argument, speaking loudly, cutting off others, and insisting on have the last word. Check your assumptions.
Watched it twice to check my assumptions. No interruptions, only corrections which were needed. He let them speak with good manners. The opposing view had the most speaking time. Watch it again and keep that in mind. Hitchens would not apologise for his dulcet tones which is of course correct.
@@1984isnotamanual My least favourite era. The invasion he so vociferously supported led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and instability which gave room for the Islamic State to take over.
One thing you have to give Credit to Hitch for is that he is amusingly well recorded. The archive of his appearances seems to be a well without a bottom. Really an astonishment in hindsight, considering film was not a cheap technology and that the films must physically survive. Even as a historian it’s an uncanny achievement.
What does "amusingly well recorded" mean? "He is well recorded" makes sense; "he is amusing when recorded" makes sense; but yours doesn't make any sense at all.
What an age we live in, where we can summon up wonderful voices from the past at leisure. I came he for James, and Hitchens with O'Rourke as an attractive addition. I must say, Hitchens doesn't cover himself in glory here.
What a rare treat this is! I'm a huge fan of both Hitch and O'Rourke, and to see them debating is wonderful. Especially in our contentious times, to see these gentlemen debating so civilly and eloquently about a President of whom I am also a fan is great!
This conversation would be impossible now. Although, Chris Hitchens became very conservative over time before his death. Great thought leaders of the 20th century. Thank you all for all your contributions to western society. While you may have all rolled in graves over the last few years, the pendulum is swinging.
This was a fascinating archival interview that I am so glad has been posted, thank you! The one thing I hadn't picked up on back in the 80's is how much of a party line-spouting wiener P.J. O'Rourke was. Meese and Hitchens were as clear-eyed and well-spoken as always, even though I've always seen Meese as someone whose job it was to serve Reagan well. This video did NOT feel like 43 minutes to me!
@@dansullivan7693 That was my impression of him too, Dan. I remembered PJ as well-spoken and well-thought out, but that was from 40 years ago. I guess he was either not on top of his game this day, or he didn't know what was being talked about for a lot of it. His comments here seem really generic, and not geared toward answering the questions posed to him. It felt to me like he was struggling to cover the subject for much of this interview. Thanks for responding.
@@ofrabjousday1 If this is mediocre PJ, I look forward to when he's on his game! Hitchens comes across to me as a dope, Meese is articulate and lawyerly, James is as usual worth hearing, but PJ strikes me as being the most reasonable & intelligent person in the discussion.
P.J was fairly BAD in his early attempts at gonzo writing too,........ However, he got better,... and then better,... and then a brilliiant reporter most of all,...... Who lets his eyes, ears and questions guide him, beyond his adopted ideologies too. Really missed. Read All the trouble in the word,.... for instance.....
When I watch this and other similar videos u quickly see that Hitchens wasn’t any kind of genius. Just another guy who can speak with confidence based on a privileged upbringing.
@@ajahnpadawan8812 He was on the wrong side of many issues, but his public school accent played well in the US. And I find him both entertaining and essentially likeable. Would be good to spend an evening arguing with him over a few pints…
Debate between highly intelligent people who have differnt views...i miss this today. Its so sad today to see what has happened to the left and right. Many thanks.
thanks for uploading this Liam. something weirdly riveting about these 4 dueling and duking it out like this. PJ is probably the only one who could've kept apace with CH. Hitchens the superior debater and probably the superior mind. PJ as a writer leaves him in the dust. call it deuce, captured forever in time. great post.
@@MattSingh1 I know they'd known each other in the 1970s, and Hitchens liked James , but I always thought James was a little more ambivalent abt Hitchens.
I'd been aware their friendship but, never been able to find an example of them sharing screen time together, until stumbling across this little gem...
What a gem from the past,Thank you..Anything Hitchens is involved with I watch, he didn’t get all his own way but that’s what’s necessary regarding serious intellectual debate. Messe will always defend his master, obedient till the end. O’Rourke acted like a articulate bodyguard for Meese, cutting Hitchens down once he scented any liberal left opinion. But Hitchens is scared of no one (Chomsky should of been invited to this debate to even the sides up). The real diamond amongst the gems was Clive James, dry wit mixed with knowledge and intellectual articulation is what’s required today in serious debates. Reagan was a enigma, his I’m just an ordinary man doing my job attitude worked, but behind the scenes in the White House as in any power organisation there is always sculduggery a plenty.
A wonderful trip back in time. You can't help but wonder what Hitchens would have made of Presidents Trump and Biden. Especially Trump. Thanks for the upload.
Class video! Edwin Meese, a 93 year old man in 2025, won the debate. Hitch was overly-conspiratorial. And Mr. O'Rourke, a fine Irish American, showed his mettle towards the end. And the great man Clive James being a fine mediator. Like History in school taught me, take it from primary sources! The "I was there" guys...
Literally anyone: _"Ronald Reagan once had chocolate ice cream."_ Edwin Meese: _"No he didn't. I was there when he ordered it, and it was definitely vanilla."_
@@ericprinzing1600 Why do you want me to do that, but think it is dreadful for Hitchens to? He doesn't need to be original on Atheism and in fact no-one can be-- the arguments of atheism are pretty fixed and have been for a few thousand years. Hitchens' value was to introduce a new generation of people to that critical tradition -- see his Portable Atheist. But I think he had a very powerful way of formulating all those arguments anew
@@ericprinzing1600 Thanks. On points 1 and 2 -- you were certainly recommending a course of action to me and insinuating -- as you do again here -- that Hitchens is redundant; and there were quite a number of ad hominem remarks in which Hitchens was reduced by you to a sort of trivial entertainer. But no matter. On 'religion poisons everything' -- I think Hitchens made that case very well: it poisons life by making the individual a plaything of non-existent totalitarian deities or very existent theocratic authorities, so crushing our individuality, committing us to a life of subjection and a perverted sense of guilt, and its foundational texts express either primitive tribal codes that we are well rid of or common sense things that are instinctive and don't require supernatural enforcement. That's all quite poisonous, I'd say. On atheism, the fact that its public expression across different ancient civilisations up until fairly recently even in the West was usually met with death or exile or other penalties for' blaspheme' does not mean that people did not have very strong and clear atheistic thoughts from the beginning. They just had to be suppressed. I have nothing against Russell et all. Russell's books are on my shelves, including 'why I am not a Christian'. But to suggest that Russell or Mackie are the last words on the subject of atheism and that no further comment is needed seems a bit cramped. Finally, on Muslims, what you say is a huge slur. Hitchens was certainly for the extirpation of militant Islamists of the ISIS and Al Qaeda persuasion --- the beheaders and suicide bombers -- but in no conceivable sense of Muslims as a whole. For years he advocated for the Sunni Muslim Kurds of northern Iraq. On Stalin and the Orthodox Church, I think Hitchens was actually pointing out that Stalin appropriated all the worst bits of the Church --- the imposition of doctrinaire views, the pursuit of heretics, the tribalism, the inquisitions and fake miracles of industrial and agricultural production. He also made points about the cynical alliance between Putin and the Russian orthodox Church, which have proved all too true in the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine. best wishes.
Intelligent people discuss and debate issues. They are able to do so without making this personal. They maintain respect for each other and their point of view.
Hitchens to O'Rourke: "It means (Reagan) can't stop being flippant at any time." O'Rourke to Hitchens: "Can you?" Hitchens smiles to himself. Gotcha. 😅
Clive James's intro leaves any for dead especially in todays podcasts. I wont include the fake legacy media we have nowadays since that form is redundant.
It’s kinda weird seeing Hitchens as a young lefty in light of how much his views changed as he got older and more mature. He was brilliant either way. I dearly miss the man.
My insignificant observations, feel free to lambast me. 1. O'Rourke thinks he's smarter than Hitchens and believes it. 2. Meese knows he's not smarter than Hitchens and accepts it. 3. Hitchens is smarter than all of them and tolerates the situation. 4. James could be smarter than any of them and doesn't care.
Don’t know too much about O’Rourke or Meese . James of course had about five more careers than Hitchens. He was a pioneer of television and comedy. He was considered one of the world’s best literary critics. He knew about ten more languages than Hitchens. Read them both and it doesn’t take long to glean who is the finer writer, and James never got labeled a sewer pipe sucker.
Christopher Hitchens was a smart man. He was a debater par excellence & a polemical pugilist. But for all his brilliance he lacked true wisdom & his legacy will not last. Christopher got the flashy wit, his brother Peter got the wisdom.
The civilized, engaging chat between these intellectual giants of fiercely opposing views is a marvel to behold ... fast forward to today and we have The Kardashians as arbiters of thought. Ye gods!
He tells jokes, he makes people feel good and relaxed, he’s the host of a game show … The mujahideen felt great, they got billion$ (and didn’t that all turn out well). The Indonesian military felt relaxed as they had US arms sales massively boosted making sure East Timor remained crushed. Ferdinand Marcos felt very relaxed too; he knew he could keep on killing his political opponents and good old funny Ronny would have his back. Sure, Ronny made a bit of a boo-boo selling missiles to Iran, but he just wanted everyone to get along and have a laugh, showing the true character of the man. Nicaragua? The El Salvadorean bloodbath? Guatemala’s death squads too, let’s not forget. Everyone having a laugh. All so they could feel relaxed and have a lovely time. And all of this hilarity for the low low price of a complete explosion of the nation’s debt. What a guy!
That's a bizarre interpretation. O'Rourke basically said, "No, but you are!" A really lame retort. I'm not surprised he regards flippancy as a virtue, though.
Perfect for Meese from a book recommended by Hitchens: “He may be known by his propensity to organise societies for the purpose of making silk purses out of sows’ ears. This tendency is not so dangerous as it might seem; for it may be observed that the sows, after taking their washing with a grunt or two, trundle back unbarmed to the wallow; and the purse-market is quoted as firm.”
@@roughhabit9085 I’m not sure I ever said he was my dear boy! Nothing wrong with expressing thanks to someone who’s gone to the trouble of posting things one jolly well likes Have a great day sir
Hitchens being proven right in that Reagan is now considered a bit of a joke nearly everywhere. The only thing to be argued is whether he was suffering early stages dementia or whether he really couldn't recall times or events.
Having Christopher Hitchens in any debate must have been terrifying for all involved. Sadly things have not progressed as much as we would have hoped since then
@Don´tbehasty as well as US ineptitude (which Hitchens never neglected to point out) would allow. But that had nothing to do with the necessity and rightness of removing Saddam Hussein.
Well said. Obvious in this exchange in the face of peers. You can see his anxiety go up when he loses control of the conversation. His legs flutter and he starts to stutter.
@@egverlander He never had control of the conversation and had to struggle just to get a point made. O’Rourke and Meese came off as pathetic partisan apologists.
@@joeanthony7759 Not to me. Meese is obviously the Reagan partisan, but I've seen enough in my 75 years to think that he's largely truthful. PJ is terrific.
A shallow man who appeared to demonstrate that clever one-liners and I'm alright jack passes for humour. Came up with the best one liners about the genocide in Bosnia.
Agreed, he was a little down or suppressed in this round table, probably because he was busy treating his fellow man and thinkers with respect instead of being the grandstanding blowhard or whatever else the enemies of his formidable intellect labeled him as.
@CarefulObserver1 nah. He is a polemicist and always, always, exaggerates and spews hearsay. He does this usually very eloquently but when exposed to equally eloqueny minds who actually know the facts and are more objective, he often flounders. Take his Mother Teresa hit piece: he had to admit he utterly exaggerated for drama. A disgusting thing to do, frankly. But biy, is his brother a pound shop version. Make no mistake, I like Hitch but he was a huge shit stirrer and very, very often just a bitchy gossip who always took the controversial posture for effect. Indeed the single thing he hated said about him (because it was so clearly true) was thar he often didn't believe the argument he was making
Most remarkable thing about this debate, is that people with clearly opposing views, could do it in such a civilised and respectful way. Something that very sadly missing today!
@UFO what?
I feel we've lost a lot of common sense and decency. People are so easily offended that they feel entitled to walk out of a room if someone holds a different opinion to theirs.
It was rare then too.
The civility is better than we see today, but the constant bullshit spewed from the right is the same as we see today. Anyone who is prepared to argue that Reagan was an honest guy or even remotely competent at governance has nothing worthwhile to add to the discourse.
Mease accidentally got one thing right. He said Reagan’s legacy is nothing if not SDI. Thirty plus years on SDI remains a childish fantasy and Reagan deserves no legacy.
Such an original comment.
Hah! How good is this. What an intellectual, smart, witty and above all, civilised debate. Where are the likes of these men now? What a noisy vacuum we live in these days. Tragic.
Thanks for uploading.
Extremely depressing.
Perhaps it was so civilised because they're all good friends? They may have some disagreement but they are all centrist liberals who all fundamentally believe in the dominance of the western capitalist system.
Both Hitchens and James are now dead. Does anybody know about the other two?
@@kiwitrainguy: Christopher Hitchens passed away in 2011, Clive James in 2019, and P.J. O'Rourke in 2022. As of October 7th, 2023, Edwin Meese carries on at 91 years of age.
There were a lot of late night discussion shows, I expect because they were cheap to produce.
Hitchens and PJ on the same interview, absolute gold, thanks
You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed it. :)
PJ is a GOP suck up. Easily forgotten
What a gem I’ve come across. PJ vs Hitch vs Reagan’s Greatest Apologist. Lots of respect and cordiality amongst meaningful intellectuals that could not be repeated in this day and age
Democrats voted their own senile dementia sufferer who was even worse. Both sides are crazy.
I was born in 1977 in the U.K. and remember current affairs broadcasts like this. I was somewhat of a nerd and enjoyed programmes from around the age of 6 or 7 such as this. I recognised in my teenage years (1992 onwards) that open debates changed. Mostly in the "open" aspect, mildy at first. However, I still have faith that we will have no option other than to return to a balanced society.
Clive's opening monologue is priceless.
The mighty James with the mighty Hitchens - what a combination
We do not have people like them now
James did some things brilliantly and other things to mediocrity. Couldn't fake interest in some people and somethings and that is why he was patchy in some TV shows.
Clive James was a superb journalist, Polymath and intellectual.
And he gave us Margarita Pracatan
The second he turned up at Oxford (looking middle-aged already) a star who even the lecturers were frightened of. Very clever with a sense of humour is such a potent mix. There were people cleverer and people funnier, but when you put them together they are dynamite. An unlikely ladies man too - and often duplicitous with it...
@@peterh1353 especially as he was never at Oxford.
@ My mistake Cambridge! Thanks for your correction.
Time well spent: watching this. Time not well spent: reading the comments.
Thanks so much for posting; oddly enough, this remains contemporary :: also, Hitchens, as per: Dazzles ✨
You're welcome. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I have a few more to work on.
@@legalmonkey this is glorious news 🌟 😄 !! Thanks, thanks and ever thanks.
@@johnjosmith42 Meh. Hitchens' vacuous smugness comes off as just swarmy. He is witty, tho.
This is indeed a real, rare gem from a bygone era when widely divergent philosophies and beliefs could be treated with such cordiality and respect.
I really miss Clive james he was brilliant.
He could review the test card and make a fantastic piece out of it.
When you listen to Hitch you remember how wonderful it was to have him!
Even allowing for his position on the invasion of Iraq...and now I doubt whether to add a question mark.It is of course ironic to hear him talk about the lies of Reagan ,Trump wasn't the first.
Clive James- the Kogarah Kid! One of Australia's best exports. ❤
Great upload - thanks a lot! Something I'd not seen of Christopher Hitchens...very rare commodity
You're welcome. Thanks for the nice comment. Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks for the upload. I remember seeing the original broadcast and O’Rourke’s comment on humour has always stayed with me. The Late Show was great.
I said this on Liam's other video, and I'll say it again here:
I cannot thank you enough for sourcing and uploading this. To anyone reading: please do not post this link in public fora anywhere. That will only risk attracting content copyright strikes. If you want to share it, please only do so in private messages with discreet people you personally know and trust.
Thank you for that comment. I will pin it here. I had a different video which I uploaded on CH taken down recently!
@@legalmonkey Every Hitch video taken down is a loss to thinking people everywhere.
@@legalmonkey As you doubtless know, there's a serious cult for all things Hitch here on RUclips, so if you can find a way of circumventing any copyright and try reuploading that video -- maybe by not mentioning his full name or undescoring some letters -- it would go down as well as this upload has.
@@AnkurBorwankar ... and thinking women.
@@mangasky7 - Ok. Thank you for that tip.
Oh FAB! A Hitchens interview I haven't seen -- with the bonus of PJ O'Rourke!
Thank you for sharing this terrific footage; it's depressing to think that Meese is the only man still standing.
I was about to say that.
You're welcome. Thank you.
Well, a sociopath with no conscience is not affected by age
What a brilliant upload, thanks a lot.
Edwin Meese's explanation of the 'Iran initiative' is absolutely astonishing. Somewhere, probably at the end of a bar, Hitchens is still laughing at that.
Hitchens sits on the sidelines and pontificates but could never be in the arena. That makes him an intellectual coward.
@@egverlander An intellectual coward? The world would be a much better place if we had more of them.
I liked how Clive would ask Meese , an eyewitness insider , what actually happened, and meanwhile Hitchens stuck to his fabricated conspiracy theories.
It’s what you would expect from someone who never even had the civility to respect religious freedom, and I say that as an atheist.
@@roughhabit9085 You're aware that Hitchens cites the accounts of others, all made in public, when questioning the narrative of Meese?
As for the comment on religious freedom, I'm astonished you think that Hitchens didn't respect religious freedom.
@@rstevens7711 All bullies are cowards. He is an intellectual bully. Watch his atheism book tour, moralistic diatribes.
Wow, I'm delighted to find this clip. It's too late tonight to watch it, but I shall do so tomorrow.
Oh wow how much am I looking forward to watching this. Its just landed into my youtube front page. What an introduction by Clive James. And these guests won't be easy to handle
Wonderful to see this again, it just shows how gormlesss our current crop are.
The fact that the first 3 intro minutes of this video exist prove that humanity was once in fact, for a brief moment in the 20th century, civilized. Spot on good sirs.
In TV studios, yes. Well-paid middle class people who were always going to be well-paid middle class people. Had a lot more in common than they believed.
What I wouldn’t give to hear Hitchens let loose on the fools of today.
I miss that man, every day, Ben.
Imagine him talking of Trump!
@@Longtack55 - That would have been pointless like shooting fish in a barrel- what he would have done is dismantle all the mad premises behind identity politics- particularly the idea that a biological man can become a woman
@@Longtack55 or better yet Hillary
I agree 100%, he would crucify them all
a top bloke - he knew all the great and respected ppl with talent. one of the few Aussies I like.
Feeling sad for you. Love from Sydney 😭
Why don't you like Australians?
@@Josette93 Woody Allen "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to be a member"... okay im toying with you. but in all seriousness can you honestly not think of any reason people would not like Australians? (keep in mind all groups have something cringe-worthy and
if you say no it will sound disingenuous)
@@kapple654Groucho Marx
@@kapple654Groucho Marx
Hitchens’s exactitude and ability to pull up facts in the face of conjecture is admirable.
Seemed the opposite was happening here
….and the ability of his opponents to infer the opposite is undeniable….
You assume that he is accurate and truthful. He disarms rebuttal by taking control of the argument, speaking loudly, cutting off others, and insisting on have the last word. Check your assumptions.
@@egverlander well said
Watched it twice to check my assumptions. No interruptions, only corrections which were needed. He let them speak with good manners. The opposing view had the most speaking time. Watch it again and keep that in mind. Hitchens would not apologise for his dulcet tones which is of course correct.
Great discussion. Clive was always a great interviewer/moderator.
He was horrible. Obviously biased.
Meh
@@arriuscalpurniuspisowhat to the middle?
His bias merely evened the numbers which seems fair ,and he was way more tolerant than Hitchens.
I love this era of Hitchens.
I love all of them. My favorite era of his is his fight for Iraqi and Kurdish liberation
@@1984isnotamanual My least favourite era. The invasion he so vociferously supported led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and instability which gave room for the Islamic State to take over.
Thank you for uploading this. Superb.
You're welcome. :)
One thing you have to give Credit to Hitch for is that he is amusingly well recorded. The archive of his appearances seems to be a well without a bottom. Really an astonishment in hindsight, considering film was not a cheap technology and that the films must physically survive. Even as a historian it’s an uncanny achievement.
This is the late 1980’s not the late 1880’s
@@HkFinn83 Yeah, I don't know what that comment was pratingly on about.
A lot of his appearances have been lost though as well as debates he had and tv documentary specials that he hosted
What does "amusingly well recorded" mean?
"He is well recorded" makes sense; "he is amusing when recorded" makes sense; but yours doesn't make any sense at all.
@@garymitchell5899 probably meant amazingly.
Thoroughly enjoyed, what professional respectable gentlemen!
What an age we live in, where we can summon up wonderful voices from the past at leisure. I came he for James, and Hitchens with O'Rourke as an attractive addition. I must say, Hitchens doesn't cover himself in glory here.
By being analytical and honest. Hitchens is fabulous.
What a quorum! Won't see this again in our lifetimes.
What a rare treat this is! I'm a huge fan of both Hitch and O'Rourke, and to see them debating is wonderful. Especially in our contentious times, to see these gentlemen debating so civilly and eloquently about a President of whom I am also a fan is great!
This conversation would be impossible now. Although, Chris Hitchens became very conservative over time before his death. Great thought leaders of the 20th century. Thank you all for all your contributions to western society.
While you may have all rolled in graves over the last few years, the pendulum is swinging.
He wasn’t ‘very’ conservative
Thank you for this!
What a fantastic discussion. Thank you for sharing this.
Horrible forum. They all cut off Hitchens, who very patiently suffered their Nazi crap talk
This was a fascinating archival interview that I am so glad has been posted, thank you! The one thing I hadn't picked up on back in the 80's is how much of a party line-spouting wiener P.J. O'Rourke was. Meese and Hitchens were as clear-eyed and well-spoken as always, even though I've always seen Meese as someone whose job it was to serve Reagan well. This video did NOT feel like 43 minutes to me!
I disagree, and with time, PJ looks a much more clear thinking on the issue. Hitchens would sound more like PJ late in his life.
@@dansullivan7693 That was my impression of him too, Dan. I remembered PJ as well-spoken and well-thought out, but that was from 40 years ago. I guess he was either not on top of his game this day, or he didn't know what was being talked about for a lot of it. His comments here seem really generic, and not geared toward answering the questions posed to him. It felt to me like he was struggling to cover the subject for much of this interview. Thanks for responding.
@@ofrabjousday1 If this is mediocre PJ, I look forward to when he's on his game! Hitchens comes across to me as a dope, Meese is articulate and lawyerly, James is as usual worth hearing, but PJ strikes me as being the most reasonable & intelligent person in the discussion.
@@harmon1103 Yipe.
P.J was fairly BAD in his early attempts at gonzo writing too,........ However, he got better,... and then better,... and then a brilliiant reporter most of all,...... Who lets his eyes, ears and questions guide him, beyond his adopted ideologies too. Really missed. Read All the trouble in the word,.... for instance.....
Thanks for this. Fascinating.
I miss Clive James. A lot
Fantastic. Thank you so much
This is civil discourse at its best. Unlike the shouty pissing contests which characterise the current media landscape. I miss Clive James😢
When I watch this and other similar videos u quickly see that Hitchens wasn’t any kind of genius. Just another guy who can speak with confidence based on a privileged upbringing.
Civil, yet treacherous. These awful people deserve to be called out on their horrendous ideologies and outright lies.
@@ajahnpadawan8812ad hominem. don't pout because of your inefficiencies.
@@ajahnpadawan8812 He was on the wrong side of many issues, but his public school accent played well in the US. And I find him both entertaining and essentially likeable. Would be good to spend an evening arguing with him over a few pints…
@@ajahnpadawan8812 Not sure Hitchens ever claimed to be a genius.
Can't imagine a conversation like this taking place today on the BBC or ITV..
Delaying the release of hostages, what a great display of Reagan's CHARACTER.
Thanks for this.
This is so Fabulous! Many thanks for posting 🖤
Awe struck at the level of nuance and political discourse...very enlightening.
I did not know this existed. There just is not enough footage of P.J. O’Rourke, and here he is with Clive James, and Clive James. Thank you so much.
?! Clive James, P.J. O’Rourke, and Christopher Hitchens.
@@ianlacey6588 Clive James... and Clive James!
Gold… reasonably respectful discourse by 4 intelligent people on serious subjects.
9:36 - "can you?" - very sharp.
I wish people could still talk about global topics in this way. Just great stuff
Debate between highly intelligent people who have differnt views...i miss this today. Its so sad today to see what has happened to the left and right. Many thanks.
except Meese's "point of view" was ful of shit.
Three of the funniest men who ever lived in one room. That'll do me.....
Clive James, Hitchens and Meese
@@roryoconnor6574 Three of the funniest men who ever lived, in one room.
@UFO: ok.....it's 'in one room'....😬
I'd say three of the funniest men who lived together in one room would have been the Marx Brothers. (Gummo and Zeppo had another room.)
I'd say that O'Rourke's book "Holidays in Hell" was one of the funniest books I've ever read. Highly recommended.
Great upload - discourse of a quality you have no chance of seeing today.
Thank you for this wonderful talk ❤
thanks for uploading this Liam. something weirdly riveting about these 4 dueling and duking it out like this. PJ is probably the only one who could've kept apace with CH. Hitchens the superior debater and probably the superior mind. PJ as a writer leaves him in the dust. call it deuce, captured forever in time. great post.
There are two brilliant people here: Clive James and Christopher Hitchens.
"Nobody knew"...yet Meese knows everything
Oh my goodness. Clive James + Christopher Hitchens.
This is great. Where do you find this gold ?
*Hitchens and James were friends- Hitchens spoke highly of James and James of Hitchens.*
@@MattSingh1 I know they'd known each other in the 1970s, and Hitchens liked James , but I always thought James was a little more ambivalent abt Hitchens.
@@GabrielWard2001 *No not at all, James was a out-right friend of Hitchens along the lines of Rushdie, Amis, Fenton et al.*
@@MattSingh1 all used to lunch together every Friday I believe, Along with Martin Amis and a few others.
I'd been aware their friendship but, never been able to find an example of them sharing screen time together, until stumbling across this little gem...
Debate, substance, wiity, intelligent and style. This is lacking in public discourse.
What a gem from the past,Thank you..Anything Hitchens is involved with I watch, he didn’t get all his own way but that’s what’s necessary regarding serious intellectual debate. Messe will always defend his master, obedient till the end. O’Rourke acted like a articulate bodyguard for Meese, cutting Hitchens down once he scented any liberal left opinion. But Hitchens is scared of no one (Chomsky should of been invited to this debate to even the sides up). The real diamond amongst the gems was Clive James, dry wit mixed with knowledge and intellectual articulation is what’s required today in serious debates. Reagan was a enigma, his I’m just an ordinary man doing my job attitude worked, but behind the scenes in the White House as in any power organisation there is always sculduggery a plenty.
God what drivel
How discussion, disagreement, debate is done with mutual respect. The good old days ✌🏻🥹
If you get a chance, read Clive James autobiography "Unreliable Memoirs" .. the funniest book I've ever read.
Yup read it 42 years ago.
A wonderful trip back in time. You can't help but wonder what Hitchens would have made of Presidents Trump and Biden. Especially Trump.
Thanks for the upload.
Such a refreshingly polite discussion between complete opposites of opinion.
Class video!
Edwin Meese, a 93 year old man in 2025, won the debate. Hitch was overly-conspiratorial. And Mr. O'Rourke, a fine Irish American, showed his mettle towards the end. And the great man Clive James being a fine mediator.
Like History in school taught me, take it from primary sources! The "I was there" guys...
Literally anyone: _"Ronald Reagan once had chocolate ice cream."_
Edwin Meese: _"No he didn't. I was there when he ordered it, and it was definitely vanilla."_
nonsense.
@@johnwatts8346 Demonstrable true.
@@johnwatts8346 You deny that Reagan ate vanilla ice cream?
Today's version of Meese would never sit for something like this
Not often you saw Christopher Hitchens bettered and out argued .... but this is one of them. Great stuff from all involved in fairness
You wish
@@ericprinzing1600 Why do you want me to do that, but think it is dreadful for Hitchens to? He doesn't need to be original on Atheism and in fact no-one can be-- the arguments of atheism are pretty fixed and have been for a few thousand years. Hitchens' value was to introduce a new generation of people to that critical tradition -- see his Portable Atheist. But I think he had a very powerful way of formulating all those arguments anew
@@ericprinzing1600 Wrong.
@@ericprinzing1600 Thanks. On points 1 and 2 -- you were certainly recommending a course of action to me and insinuating -- as you do again here -- that Hitchens is redundant; and there were quite a number of ad hominem remarks in which Hitchens was reduced by you to a sort of trivial entertainer. But no matter. On 'religion poisons everything' -- I think Hitchens made that case very well: it poisons life by making the individual a plaything of non-existent totalitarian deities or very existent theocratic authorities, so crushing our individuality, committing us to a life of subjection and a perverted sense of guilt, and its foundational texts express either primitive tribal codes that we are well rid of or common sense things that are instinctive and don't require supernatural enforcement. That's all quite poisonous, I'd say.
On atheism, the fact that its public expression across different ancient civilisations up until fairly recently even in the West was usually met with death or exile or other penalties for' blaspheme' does not mean that people did not have very strong and clear atheistic thoughts from the beginning. They just had to be suppressed. I have nothing against Russell et all. Russell's books are on my shelves, including 'why I am not a Christian'. But to suggest that Russell or Mackie are the last words on the subject of atheism and that no further comment is needed seems a bit cramped.
Finally, on Muslims, what you say is a huge slur. Hitchens was certainly for the extirpation of militant Islamists of the ISIS and Al Qaeda persuasion --- the beheaders and suicide bombers -- but in no conceivable sense of Muslims as a whole. For years he advocated for the Sunni Muslim Kurds of northern Iraq. On Stalin and the Orthodox Church, I think Hitchens was actually pointing out that Stalin appropriated all the worst bits of the Church --- the imposition of doctrinaire views, the pursuit of heretics, the tribalism, the inquisitions and fake miracles of industrial and agricultural production. He also made points about the cynical alliance between Putin and the Russian orthodox Church, which have proved all too true in the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine. best wishes.
Delusional
Intelligent people discuss and debate issues. They are able to do so without making this personal. They maintain respect for each other and their point of view.
Hitchens to O'Rourke: "It means (Reagan) can't stop being flippant at any time."
O'Rourke to Hitchens: "Can you?"
Hitchens smiles to himself. Gotcha. 😅
@@Mallarkey Hitchens is flippant a lot of the time though! :)
Thank you, 👏💯🇮🇪
You are very welcome.
Clive James's intro leaves any for dead especially in todays podcasts. I wont include the fake legacy media we have nowadays since that form is redundant.
Why am I only learning of this amazing video just now
It’s kinda weird seeing Hitchens as a young lefty in light of how much his views changed as he got older and more mature. He was brilliant either way. I dearly miss the man.
From lefty to screaming neocon. What an awful legacy to leave behind.
He remained on the left throughout his life
@@amandaharris887 Nobody's perfect.
Incredible to think that PJ wrote for Rolling Stone. How that publication has declined.
My insignificant observations, feel free to lambast me.
1. O'Rourke thinks he's smarter than Hitchens and believes it.
2. Meese knows he's not smarter than Hitchens and accepts it.
3. Hitchens is smarter than all of them and tolerates the situation.
4. James could be smarter than any of them and doesn't care.
Excellent - James was indeed a very smart bloke and down to earth with it
Nailed it!
Don’t know too much about O’Rourke or Meese . James of course had about five more careers than Hitchens. He was a pioneer of television and comedy. He was considered one of the world’s best literary critics. He knew about ten more languages than Hitchens. Read them both and it doesn’t take long to glean who is the finer writer, and James never got labeled a sewer pipe sucker.
If only being smart equated to effectiveness! As a huge Hitchens fan his eager dourness backfired against his positive company.
Christopher Hitchens was a smart man. He was a debater par excellence & a polemical pugilist. But for all his brilliance he lacked true wisdom & his legacy will not last. Christopher got the flashy wit, his brother Peter got the wisdom.
The civilized, engaging chat between these intellectual giants of fiercely opposing views is a marvel to behold ... fast forward to today and we have The Kardashians as arbiters of thought. Ye gods!
Astounding. No wonder our species is in peril.
He tells jokes, he makes people feel good and relaxed, he’s the host of a game show … The mujahideen felt great, they got billion$ (and didn’t that all turn out well). The Indonesian military felt relaxed as they had US arms sales massively boosted making sure East Timor remained crushed. Ferdinand Marcos felt very relaxed too; he knew he could keep on killing his political opponents and good old funny Ronny would have his back. Sure, Ronny made a bit of a boo-boo selling missiles to Iran, but he just wanted everyone to get along and have a laugh, showing the true character of the man. Nicaragua? The El Salvadorean bloodbath? Guatemala’s death squads too, let’s not forget. Everyone having a laugh. All so they could feel relaxed and have a lovely time. And all of this hilarity for the low low price of a complete explosion of the nation’s debt. What a guy!
9.34 Re. flippancy. The Hitch well and truly put in his place and brought to heel by P.J. O'Rourke. Witheringly so in fact.
That's a bizarre interpretation. O'Rourke basically said, "No, but you are!" A really lame retort. I'm not surprised he regards flippancy as a virtue, though.
@@damienbowles430 not necessarily a lame retort. I found it fitting and amusing in this context.
hitchens contributions are solid. clive is such a good moderator, let's them run when they're on a solid point. jumps in when they go off the topic
Perfect for Meese from a book recommended by Hitchens:
“He may be known by his propensity to organise societies for the purpose of making silk purses out of sows’ ears. This tendency is not so dangerous as it might seem; for it may be observed that the sows, after taking their washing with a grunt or two, trundle back unbarmed to the wallow; and the purse-market is quoted as firm.”
2 massive brains in Hitchens and James. Miss them both.
More, more!
The American dream that many have not woken up from
Such class.
Compare this to the empty dullards on BBC Newsnight these days!
We are so much poorer now.
Hip hip, hooray :)
:)
I hope you win the lottery my dear chap thank you once again 😎👍
I’m not sure he’s a CH sycophant. Some of his other clips feature Milton Friedman , who is the polar opposite of the idealist Hitchens.
@@roughhabit9085
I’m not sure I ever said he was my dear boy!
Nothing wrong with expressing thanks to someone who’s gone to the trouble of posting things one jolly well likes
Have a great day sir
@ Eddy K 🍻
Hitchens being proven right in that Reagan is now considered a bit of a joke nearly everywhere. The only thing to be argued is whether he was suffering early stages dementia or whether he really couldn't recall times or events.
Having Christopher Hitchens in any debate must have been terrifying for all involved.
Sadly things have not progressed as much as we would have hoped since then
Where did you hood to progress too ?
Utopia?
O'Rourke wasnt in the least terrified and very effectively slapped Hitch into place with his return on "flippancy".
Three of them wanted a discussion and Hitchens wanted to be righteous and belligerent.
@Don´tbehasty unlike ideologues he did let facts influence his positions.
@Don´tbehasty as well as US ineptitude (which Hitchens never neglected to point out) would allow.
But that had nothing to do with the necessity and rightness of removing Saddam Hussein.
Ahhhh, the good old days, pj and the hitch what a combo.
What a gem
... Hitchens (whose brilliancy is obvious), puts forth such an absolute confidence that, when proved wrong, he falls from very high...
Well said. Obvious in this exchange in the face of peers. You can see his anxiety go up when he loses control of the conversation. His legs flutter and he starts to stutter.
@@egverlander He never had control of the conversation and had to struggle just to get a point made. O’Rourke and Meese came off as pathetic partisan apologists.
@@joeanthony7759 Not to me. Meese is obviously the Reagan partisan, but I've seen enough in my 75 years to think that he's largely truthful. PJ is terrific.
I used to love O'Rourke, but after seeing this, I am disappomnted to find he is...who he is.
A shallow man who appeared to demonstrate that clever one-liners and I'm alright jack passes for humour. Came up with the best one liners about the genocide in Bosnia.
@@peterh1353
O’Rourke comes across like a paper boy, not a writer of.
Big Hitchens fan but he was unforgivably dull during these exchanges.
That's what happens when one is outclassed.
Agreed, he was a little down or suppressed in this round table, probably because he was busy treating his fellow man and thinkers with respect instead of being the grandstanding blowhard or whatever else the enemies of his formidable intellect labeled him as.
@CarefulObserver1 nah. He is a polemicist and always, always, exaggerates and spews hearsay. He does this usually very eloquently but when exposed to equally eloqueny minds who actually know the facts and are more objective, he often flounders. Take his Mother Teresa hit piece: he had to admit he utterly exaggerated for drama. A disgusting thing to do, frankly. But biy, is his brother a pound shop version.
Make no mistake, I like Hitch but he was a huge shit stirrer and very, very often just a bitchy gossip who always took the controversial posture for effect. Indeed the single thing he hated said about him (because it was so clearly true) was thar he often didn't believe the argument he was making
@@fabioq6916 And let's not even start on the showy sophistry and faux intellectualism of everybody's favourite bad boy Russell Brand.
@@fabioq6916 where does he admit he lies about mother teresa? I didn't know this.
Thrley wiped the floor with Hitchens.
O'Rourke is left twisting in his chair around 24:55 after Hitchens skewers his "joke".
He got popular by being really really good at his job. And the greatest test is whether you stand the test of time. Here in 2025. He has.