Are Penguin Magic Evil? - Aaron Ducker & Perseus Arkomanis Vs Craig Petty | Live Debate
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Are Penguin Magic Evil? - Aaron Ducker & Perseus Arkomanis Vs Craig Petty | Live Debate
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Are Penguin Magic Evil? - Aaron Ducker & Perseus Arkomanis Vs Craig Petty | Live Debate
This Tuesday, Craig brings a very special video to Magic TV. This is the next part of the discussion around Aaron Ducker and Penguin Magic following last Friday's Magic Rant. In this video Craig has managed to set up a direct debate between himself, Aaron Ducker and Perseus Arkomanis. Craig will discuss their views on the situation, call out when they're not telling the truth and provide counter points in Penguin's defence. This is a video you really do not want to miss!
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but Perseus is the coolest dude in this entire conversation.
And the cat
He is also delusional AF.
I promised I'll stop responding to anyone but I really needed to make a note.
Please stop calling Craig a bully or anything similar. He was gracious enough to invite us to his platform to discuss our arguments and he stated his opinions in the process. The issue has ended and all voices were fairly heard.
Let's move forward and remain positive.
Remember, we all are here because we love this beautiful art. Thank you all who politely agreed and supported us and those who did not but did it gracefully.
Peace out ✌️
I do agree with Perseus and Aaron here, even though there is no right or wrong answer in this instance. I do wish Craig didn't interrupt them so much and just let them make their points. It was great that Craig did bring the discussion to a graceful conclusion, but it did feel like he was bullying Aaron in the middle.
He wasent "bullying" him at all. This kid has been spouting off on all magic platforms about this. The trick is completely different and it sucks. Anyone with a misidexed card would come up with this on their own. It's not original at all. No one is going to buy this. Even if Amanda's wasent released.
@@jaytpmc I agree. Aaron's trick is lesser. But they all agreed at the start to not argue, keep the discussion about ethics and not personal opinions, and keep it civil. Craig at many times focused on points that had nothing to do with the points that they tried to make and spoke over them. I believe that he unintentionally did it because he is so passionate about magic and its ethics and came from a place of love, but imo came across in a fashion that was attacking Aaron. I love hearing him speak, but he frustrated me in this talk. But I was happy that he came around and was able to be so giving and gracious to Aaron at the end, and that's what should be celebrated.
I also think that both tricks suck, but that's neither here nor there, just my opinion. I just enjoyed that the grey areas of ethics were discussed and questioned.
It's very insightful to hear the other side of the story. It's a bummer that it took half an hour of Aaron and Perseus being paraphrased incorrectly and some kind of wild confusion to get to the point that allowed for them to provide some clarity on the subject. Aaron should get some kind of acknowledgement, I'm sure they'd give acknowledgement right back to Amanda if given the opportunity. It's unfair that he tried to give this trick to penguin and that they rejected him only to turn around and release a near identical trick backed by another person. It's totally valid saying that both Amanda and Aaron have been mistreated in this situation by Penguin.
This is the best comment on the Topic
It's not "near identical" at all. 🤦
Actually, Craig did a good job of paraphrasing the argument they made on the magic cafe. Based upon the available evidence present to public so far, Aaron has no shoot at any claim to Amanda’s “original creation”. He even admits it is Amanda’s creation was original to her alone and therefore Penguin has no obligation to make this claim for Aaron.
Fun fact: I had a trick that I was going to release with Penguin after I did my lecture, we even recorded all the tutorials and demos over in Ohio, and shortly before it was due to be released, Shaun contacted me and said "We've discovered that someone else has a trick they have already released that is very similar." and Pingu just didn't release it. That was fine and they were right to do so. I did put it in my Codex book, and made sure I wrote that a similar version had been released by someone else, and that was that. Not sure what that adds other than that Penguin aren't blind to these elements of the industry.
Why use so much time trying to defend this, I do not get it. I must agree with Perseus, If any one here had sent a trick to a magic company a couple of times, and they released a trick that is very close to theirs everyone would like to have a bit of acknowledgement. The first to market argument does not stand here in my opinion. Noone would send their effects to any magic company if they had no protection. In copyright law, once you have sent a routine/product to a producer you have protection for that product. I don't think anyone has done things on purpose. But there should be some protection for people sending their tricks to magic companies.
Copywriter protections are different in each country. Here in USA, Amanda would still win as there is enough of a difference and the main gaffe is not inherently either of their own creation. Therefore it is not the gaffe or the effect that is at issue, it is the method. Let them both be sent out and I will tell you Amanda’s product will win hands down every time.
@@MastersofCriminology you are probably right :) my point though is that life is not about winning, but doing the right thing. Some might disagree here and say life is about winning ;)
Couldn't disagree with Craig more. It's also extremely apparent that Craig doesn't understand what debate means or the format for doing a debate. He dominates the "conversation" and doesn't allow the guests to make their points.
Love you Craig, but Perseus won this Debate. :)
Aaron deserves acknowledgment 100%. Perseus seems like an absolute gent. Craig is all over the place with his logic and extremely dismissive.
Also huge respect for Aarons composure throughout this.
@@allynlawson Reminds me of a quote "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." Lao Tzu
Not at all. His method is different and sloppy, and it's not a good trick at all.
I like to acknowledge that Craig Petty at the end of the video is the version of Craig that I like to see. Please less rants and heated debates and more fun magic videos.
Great to hear you would like to contribute to Aaron's project 👍👍
Listening quietly and formulating a proper response before butting in is how you effectively discuss an issue... Glad Perseus was on this
The way we publish Magic is a Broken System! 😂😂
Hey bro get a Life and stop trolling RUclips
Honestly I think this video is a step forward for Aaron. Perseus and Aaron seems like a really nice guys and I’ve gained a lot of respect for all especially for Aaron and Perseus. Sure things got a little heated but in the end good came out of this. Things needed to be hashed out, Craig is not a bully. He is brutally honest and giving him some really decent advice here.
If Craig helps Aaron with this project I will defiantly buy this.
I wish nothing but success for Aaron and it’s unfortunate this has all happened. But maybe this can be a really good learning experience and I think there’s a silver lining here. Craig wants to help Aaron, that’s awesome. You see what we truly need to learn as a society, just because we don’t see eye to eye on things. Doesn’t mean we still can’t be friends and help support one another. I am guilty of this in the past, bringing other magicians down with rude comments on forums and whatever I think we’re all guilty of that to some degree. I went out of line commenting on Aaron’s last video and it was mean and rude and I since apologized for it and I honestly feel bad now in retrospect.
I think this is a really good moment tho, where we can all maybe step back and think. Are we helping Aaron here, or are we maybe bringing this guy down more.
I think what Craig has done is great, he did a rare thing here guys. Even tho he didn’t see eye to eye with Aaron or Perseus he’s still willing to help him and support him. I admire that a lot and I just think from here on out,all of us should just help support new creators in this industry and not tear them down.
Much respect for Craig, Aaron & Perseus!
thank you for the wonderful discussion!!!
I feel this gives two sides to the story. People will take sides but least everyone has had a fair chance to share their views and opinions.
Your download trick of the year on Alakazam didnt have the toyfactor to be successful, how dare you scott :D
@@vantuantran5160 lol 😂 yeah no gimmicks , no moves , no toys just a pack of normal cards. I am very proud to get download of the year from Alakazam for the sting effect. Strong self working effect that leaves a mixed up deck in new deck order 😊
Yeah the media backed magi and the rest of us.
Smilesotheylikeyou
Craig accused Aaron of being a bully with his "crusade." The only bully I saw was Craig. Regardless of my point of view of who's right or wrong on the issue, there's only one bully here, and it's not Aaron.
Yep
The kid brought it on himself. Obviously you haven't been following this. He is getting what he has been dishing out.
Craig....I’m a huge fan of yours. However, in this video you come across as aggressive and very defensive in supporting Penguin but kept saying you “don’t have a dog in this fight.” Sure sounded to me like you certainly were NOT objective. Your constant interruptions obscured the debate. Quite frankly after listening to this discussion I think Aaron needs to move on and stop moaning about who gets credit. He’s 7 years late to market. Period. Day late and a dollar short as the expression goes. Time to move on. The next time you have a debate feel free to let the other party present their views without rudely and constantly interrupting them.
The cat is stealing the show for me!!!
Cats do that.
I'm also a magic creator. If someone publishes same idea before I just create another trick... It's simple after all...so much trouble for some stupid trick that everyone will soon forget...
Exactly what I think... So much trouble for nothing xD
What a great way to end a very spirited discussion... That's one hell of an offer to Mr. Ducker, too. WOW, I hope he realizes the value of having you involved in their project. That was a most generous offer of you to film tutorial routines for his 2023 release.
I feel for Amanda in this, she has released her first major trick and while I understand Aaron’s point, I just hope this doesn’t knock Amanda’s Confidence in the future, she should be rewarded for her awesome creation, Totally Unfair
Kind of reminds me of boom box & parsons box, that was settled easily, just release both and buy which one you prefer 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
I can’t wait to purchase The Better Half Project when is this available?? 😬
The visual change of the corner indices found in Amanda's version makes an improvement on Aaron's presentation. In Aaron's defence he does have evidence of the similarly between the two effects that predates Amanda, as a result if it was possible to take this argument to court there is in my opinion argument for Aaron to receive a credit and if I was a member of the jury I would side with Aaron.
However Amanda has modified the handling added something that enables the effect to be preformed with the face of the card visible and change of corner pip.
With the talk about first to market and production being the only way to receive acknowledgement on tricks and effects then what about underground tricks and effects and unscrupulous people who see something reverse engineer and rush it to market who deserves the credit?
Unfortunately Aaron (for the sake of argument) finds himself with a Svengali deck where as Amanda has a Mirage deck. [ note the uses of Svengali deck and Mirage deck is there to show similarities ]
Amanda does have the stronger effect overall, however Aaron's effect should be treated as an underground effect and as such should be acknowledged especially considering the evidence of attempted release nearly a decade earlier.
But why should it? It being the “cool” way to do it doesn’t mean its the mandatory one. Is there an obligation to acknowledge something the doesn’t exist (published) ?
@@DaniMarko if you would like technical semantics then here we go.
As defined in the Oxford Dictionary
Publish (verb) - to make (content) available online.
Technicaly Aaron has according to definition published his trick, in a way and by being selective in who could view the content in the hopes of securing a contractual agreement that will enable him to reach a larger audience.
If this was any other industry Aaron would have a valid argument.
Now hypothetically if let say Aaron did get his trick published 7 years ago, is it not feasible someone else could have made the modification Amanda spontaneously developed?
Needed less of Craig in this conversation and he should stop being the playground bully
I’m a bully? I have both them my channel as a platform to talk on and offered to help with their project for free. And they were really happy with everything I did.
Care to explain what you have done to help Aaron?
The host claims he has no dog in this race, but then it turns out Penguin is using his endorsement of Amanda/Diamond Cutter to promote sales of Diamond Cutter.
Not cool. If you have a bias, that's fine. But at least be honest about it upfront.
The effect is not the same though. Its like being angry at penguin for not accepting your ACR then accepting another ACR instead and then wanting a credit even though the ACR that was accepted by Penguin is completely different than yours. Yeah a card comes to the top repeatedly, but from a method and performance standpoint they are not at all the same.
Thats the same situation here.
I do think to a layman the effect would look the same but we magicians look for more details when purchasing a trick Craig you should show your buddy both of these tricks back to back and ask him which one was better and why and if he notices the difference.
For Craig to do this, Aaron needs to give Craig the “4 hours” video to be effective and honest in his opinion. I’m sure Craig will review Aarons product when it comes out in 2023…. Still doesn’t change the fact that based upon what we have been presented to-date, Amanda’s method is more effective.
How did no one say “nice” when they bring up 69!?
Honestly, I think the REAL thing is that this is not the same trick, hence no credit is deserved. WATCH Amanda's and Aaron's videos before forming any opinions. I did. A torn gaffed card is not something original that should be credited. The method Amanda uses for her ending is original. Aaron agrees that this was an independent creation and said he would not expect credit if Amanda produced the trick with another magic company.
Adding a credit line would be a true disservice to Amanda. It would suggest that Aaron somehow inspired her creation - which he acknowledges is not true.
This comment is the embodiment of “Tell me you don’t understand how crediting works without telling me you don’t understand how crediting works.”
Your not known and cannot be known if these companies don’t acknowledge you, if your a famous magician no problem , if your not don’t bother because your product will be given to someone else , I actually think these magic companies should stand up and apologise to creators who are unknown
Been away for a while but seems like we have made some progress if we've gone from rants to debates. Still 90 mins to go on this video so we shall see
My thoughts so far are that Aaron should have released as a download, this would get foot in the door and if it was popular it might then turn into a fully produced product later on.
And for Craig I would say perhaps talk a little less and let Aaron/Perseus talk a little more, quite a lot of questions being asked but then you go on for another few minutes. I know it's hard but would like you to ask the question and then step back and let them answer.
maybe Im really dumb but how can you "acknowledge" something that doesn´t exist?
and besides that, the statement that Craig was provided that I understand was a draft for penguin to publish was ... delusional.
A lot of time devoted to the whinging of someone who is a very average magician.
Like Dancey robbed me of some ideas.
Smilesotheylikeyou
This whole argument is like saying Craig shouldn't have released Visible because it's Invisible. It's getting ridiculous and Aaron needs to learn humility and move on. I've invented numerous things that others beat me to market on. I said to myself, dang, I should have found a way to get it to market sooner. There are a million products like this: Someone had an idea of their own, but someone else got it on the market first. IN NO WAY should the loser be fighting for credit. It only makes you look worse if you do that. Doing so only proves you failed to bring it to market. In the year 2000 I created the idea of putting a thumb drive into a computer / car / stereo system / headphones have it automatically start playing the mp3 files stored on it. Creative labs released the "Muvo" about a year or two later, and other stereos came out with this capability. The only blame I felt was on myself for not doing it faster. With so many people in this world it is VERY difficult to come up with something that nobody else has ever thought of. Conclusion: If you have a truly unique idea, GET IT OUT FIRST because if you don't, somebody else will. Seven fucking years, you donut! If they do, don't cry and demand attention, just create the next thing and get it out more quickly. What a clusterfuck. All this attention only makes you look worse on orders of magnitude. It has certainly spotlighted that her trick is the one to buy.
This is suck a confusing situation lol. I don't know how you can get a credit or acknowledgement to a trick that isn't published yet 🤔. However at the same time both effects are similar but quite different at the same time. I still believe that Aaron's effect should come out because the 4hrs tutorial with all the handlings etc is different enough in my opinion. Awesome to see that Craig is going to contribute with this project. Anyway this was a great video/ debate Craig so thanks for this
I am a beliver that two people in different places can have a the same or similar idear and may not come into contact with each other , Craig said first one to market wins but say he took his quantum deck to penguin and they said no and a few years later another magician pitches the near identical effect and they say yes how would he feel, I think the problem is a magic company said no to a effect then a few years later said yes to a similar effect , maybe after it was lt was pointed out penguin should of thought about releasing the effect
After listening to both sides argument...
This is going to rub a lot of magicians the wrong way but honestly, imho credit should be handled similarly on how chefs / recipe makers handle it. Because at the end of the day, there is way too much “independent development” on creating effects.
So, unless magicians are willing to patent their effects (which then gets exposed to the world, this is why Coca-cola does not patent its recipe). Have at it.
May I make another note, Trademark and Patent laws are different between countries. In the US, there would most likely not be a patent infringement as the gaffe card is widely available for use by everyone. It is really in the addition to the Gaffe card that makes her product significantly different. Just my opinion. Not a lawyer.
Unless he held a patent for the gaffed card and the routine then there's no patent infringement, because there's no patent. In terms of trademark, the only thing here you could trademark would be the name of the trick, which is different, and even then, if it's not registered in the specific territories, then there's not much of a case to make. The only argument you *could* make is a copyright element, but I'm pretty sure you can't copyright methods, only scripting and specific details of the performance. The whole argument here isn't a legal one, it's more an ethics thing I guess, because it feels like there not much of a legal case to be made. (I'm *also* not a lawyer!)
I'm sure they do what they can, but Penguin doesn't have the obligation to "police" every interaction, frankly ANY interaction between creators. That is YOUR SOLE RESPONSIBILITY.
He should have published it or done a download seven years ago.
Personal opinion: Honestly this whole crediting thing is stupid. I understand people have to make a living but I feel like there’s so much overlap now that at the end of the day who cares.
Aaron's trick is not novel. The story arc with a misindexed card torn to create the correct card has been done. There should be no discussion. His handling/method and Amanda's are different and can co-exist.
25 mins in and I’m thinking this guy is being mislead or unaware of the industry and it is his fault alone. He is aware of books and not magazines.
Sadly magic magazines is old school and hardly anyone reads them or bothers with them in modern society
If bringing the parties together was important, why did you exclude anyone from Penguin? Obviously Penguin is not REQUIRED to produce every product from every creator. In my experience, they seem to always be open to allow creators to produce the magic themselves and sell it on Penguin. Also, a creator is not required to credit someone for something they may or may not have created, but never released.
This was so frustrating to watch. Thank fuck, it wasn't open for live comments. Perseus has his hands full with this guy. Aaron has openly trashed Amanda's effect, Penguin Magic and the "magic community". He revealed Amanda's effect on FB, Magic Cafe, Reddit and Discord. THAT is why he barely said a word. Perseus cut him off every time. Perseus should have done his due diligence and researched what this guy has been spouting off. This made Orion look really bad. Now... do they credit Amanda when they release their version?? Or Justin and Greg?? Or Joshua Jay???
Clearly you didn't bother watching the video in its entirety. Not once did they trash Amanda or her effect, in fact they made it quite clear that they were fans of it.
@@aricadutton164 FB, Magic Cafe, Reddit, Discord etc etc... I didn't say he trashed her. Maybe you should read the entire comment.
It isn't on Reddit. It was on a private discord server, sure. If you reread my comment I said that they didn't trash her OR HER EFFECT because you so clearly stated that they did trash her effect. Who can't read now?
@@aricadutton164 AND FB and Magic Cafe... the Private Discord.. how'd Craig have that if it's so private? lol
@@cwhite8023 yeah, how come craig got his hands on that without knowing what it is? Maybe he could elaborate where he got it from?
This brings up a good question. Is this better to be handle in court and worth to be revealed in court how both are done? Or just to move one and have competition g products.