How to Run Synchronous Generators in Parallel ㅣMarine Electrician
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- Most switchboards nowadays have automatic synchronization of generators
With just a press of a button, generators can easily be paralleled
Since automatic synchronization is a more accurate way of paralleling generators
Joining my current ship, an ancient ship, I was lucky enough to experience to synchronize generators manually
Great video, it brought back a lot of memories of my days on the water in the Navy. No automation, everything done manually. Great experience. Thank you.
damn so how many times u missed ur Phase angle, on the synchroscope.?
I'm not sure how I got here but this is a fascinating video. Now I know how to synchronize two marine generators, lol. And yes, that step 3 is important!
Another parameter for synchronization is the phase angle, that is why we use the synchroscope
a great explanation in first person POV. thanks. I was sort of scared of the breakers closing noise and half expecting a flash over, but then this isn't one of those "when synchronisation goes bad" videos!
You've piqued my interest now.
the phase sequence is usually the same for all generators on board)) What you really need is to monitor the INITIAL phase of the incoming generator so as not to cause BLACK OUT... and this done with syncronoscope..... And checking the phase sequence is really important in case of shore supply connection.
We never had a synchroscope on our units. They were able to be put on in either manual or automatic mode. All we had were the meters and the two light bulbs. All the rest of the things we could do manually or let the gensets' controls do it as shown in the video. Two 125 kW 480V 3 Phase units driven by Detroit Diesel 6-71s which had electronic governors on them. They were installed in 1979 and we used them until replaced in the early 2000s with Kohler Gensets which were rated at 150kW that could not be paralleled. The D-D gensets were air starts but manual starting only while the Kohlers were automatic battery start units. Our electrical control panels for the D-D units were kind of dangerous as if you did not know what you were doing, you could backfeed into the grid. Which is why only certain people were allowed to open the doors on the control panels to get to the motor operated circuit breakers if they tripped out the motor units on the breakers. The normal prevention of backfeeding was a keyed lock system that had just one key which was used for both the grid power and the generator power. If you wanted Grid Power, the key had to be removed from the Gen Power breaker lock which could only be done in the off position. If you wanted Gen Power, then the key had to be removed from the Grid breaker lock with it in the off position. The key had to be in and turned in whichever one you wanted to be able use. The key served two purposes as it both locked/unlocked the breaker controls and also enabled/disabled the motors on the gen breakers. The breakers also had manual controls on each of the Genset breakers.
@@gravelydon7072 wow, no synchronoscopes? Did you at least have the 3 bulbs or the 2 blinking bulbs? Or did you just have to monitor the frequency and hope the phases are correct?
@@gravelydon7072 oh sorry i oversaw the part where you mentioned you had the 2 blinking bulbs, well than everything is fine, i can work with them just as well. But i prefere a proper synchronoscope
Some of this is really good to know stuff. I can see myself in the post-American era restarting a powerplant. But I probably won't have to synchronize it to the grid when that time comes. I know so little about this stuff, just barely enough to be dangerous.
So glad i found this video, i was so confused as to how i would ever run my backyard powerplant
Lol
Best video explanation that I ever seen! Please conteen in same way!
ruclips.net/video/Ny4-FwOwROY/видео.html
Thanks!
Soutwoods city
@@markroymangrobang1072 We need new videos !
Hey, your videos are extremely well made and informed, Thanks for your help.
Thanks!
Ok, so I'm a programmer, never been on a boat or inside a power planet, but for some reason, I watched the video till the end!
If I remember correctly back in the 60s we used what was referred to as the 3 bulb method on board ships, don’t remember exactly but it had to do with the bulbs all going out then you could tie the generators together.
The 3 bulb is just next to the synchroscope meter. It is when the 2 bottom bulb has the same brightness is the time to break in the ACB.
Yes I remember the three bulb method for when there was no syncroscope. Also could use the three bulbs to make sure that the phase rotation was correct..
SAME THING AT LATTC LOS ANGELS - NEVER USED ANY PART OF THE SCHOOLING !!!!!!
Dark lamp method
The dark lamp system is the one I know. When the phases are in synch then there’s no difference between phases so the lamp doesn’t light. Seems simple enough. Of course someone couldn’t leave well enough alone so there are various other lights that tell you other things 🤔 and naturally no one bothers to label these things. It shouldn’t be complicated but somehow it is.
Thankyou for very good explanation and demonstration God bless you 🙏💐👍👌
Thanks for such an informative video. I highly recommend this videos to those people who are interested to learn and work safely in industries. This video solved lot of confusion. 😊
Good video, I do have some suggestions. You need to explain droop of the governors and droop of the voltage regulators Droop of the voltage regulator is critical to sharing reactive load. The voltage regulator droop signal is generated by a CT on B Phase of each generator, This signal is polarity sensitive and all hell brakes loose with reactive load swings if the polarity is not correct.
A and C phase voltage goes to the to voltage regulator sensing. Most parallel generation uses this so called "droop control'
Some very modern systems are fully computer controlled and do not use the droop method. Real load share with governor droop control is a bit simplier. I have worked on many marine and a few stationary application of 2 or more generators and frequently see parallel operation not working. This frequently leads to either/or operation or very short parallel operation followed by turning the original unit off as loads start to swing around. Your explanations of synchronization are good.
It’s fantastic that people sitting at home can finally see what us engineers do every day. Everyone just thinks it’s easy…. Little do 5hey know what it’s like when it goes wrong and you have a blackout… and an angry chef ☺️
this is so informative.. thank you so much
Very informative, thanks,
Extremely informative thanks you 🤩🤩🤩
Thank you for gooood explain, I'm waiting more video 💯
Thank you very much sir...!!!
Thank you bro. I wish you made video with solid step-by-step instructions... but like and subscribed anyways. Please make more videos about electrical systems ,controllers, relays,etc...
very useful sir! thanks
THANKS PO, NAPAKALAKING TULONG, LALO NA SA AKIN NA TAGAL NG TAMBAY,HEHE MEDYO NALILIMUTAN NA
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing
By the numbers. Bravo Zulu (Well Done)
Mark that was a very good video on how to sync two or more gen in parallel. But please next time you do a talking video don't keep adjusting the sound of the music up and down when you take a breath, that just hurts the ears. and if I lower my volume, I can't hear what your saying. Music is not needed on tech videos. thanks. leave the volume to music at a set low level.
Yeah please dont use music at all, the electric humming and gen sounds are way better!
That vessel design is almost sesame as my last vessel
Really interesting, thanks.
Thank you!
One of our switchboards 😃
Very good explanation.
Thank you!
Most of the panel control now a days are automatic. Synchronization resolve without touching any switches.
Thanks man❤️
Thanks a lot.. 👍🏻
Great video sir
AMAZING!
Really good explanation Sir
thanks
3:28 it's the most crucial step.
Great video. I used to do this when testing generators on US Navy ships. One thing....You show how to move the "real" load (KW) from one generator to the other with the governor controls but you don't show how to move the "reactive" load (KVA) by adjusting the voltage regulators.
Perhaps the facility has power factor correction to ensure the generators never see any reactive load.
@@DantalionNl Doesn't work that way. The governors control the "real" power (KW) and the voltage regulators control the reactive (KVA) power. Adjusting them will move the real and reactive power from one machine to another.
There comes the AVR.
@@jimprice1959 Yep, it be so. I was amazed to actually see real and reactive loads moving around between generators the first time I ran the on-board electric panel on a nuke boat. (It's one thing to know the theory, another to actually see it.) When I went to work at a commercial nuke plant, you could see megawatts of reactive power being accepted / rejected according to the voltage settings.
@@WarpFactor999 Sounds like you've "been there." I worked at the San Francisco Naval Shipyard back in the 1960s. When we were testing the ship service generators we would need to move the ship from ship service to shore power. We weren't supposed to parallel with shore power but if they were testing radar sets they didn't want us to drop power--even for a couple of seconds. We would use the governor and voltage regulator controls to move the real and reactive power so that there would be no power when we opened or closed the bus tie breakers.
Which components are required to make synchronizing panel using synchroscope?
Ang galing nman ng vid nyo lods
Salamat lods
I finally learned what is reverse power and how bad it is
Are you a 1141? Also how’d u study for the electrician side for the asvab?
Been there, done that many, many years ago.
What happens if you accidentally connect the generators together when the synchroscope is pointing down? Is that like a short circuit and the fuses will blow?
Good 👍
Nice sir
great video thanks for the informations. I did not fully understand how the "switch" that appears at the 3:07 works. should it be selected as "bus" for the incoming generator? Can we say this briefly?
im correcting; for the "service generator" :)
Are all three generators ever used at the same time?
Friend, how to check diesel generator oil pressure sensor and water temperature sensor? Is it working properly?
Exellent
Hi sir, can we get in touch? I wanted to know more about collecting seatime before the oral exam for COC. I’m currently taking the ETO course. :)
Why synchroscopes have to switched off , before load sharing?, sir
In panel how you would come to know about same phase by looking please tell
🙏🙏🙏
Hi Sir. Can we request you an explanation how is the elctrical distribution from generators, Busbar to switchears to load side. And protection breaker
220V RMS is not having the max at +220V and the min at -220V
Yeah.. I saw that too. 220V peak would be 155 (ish) V RMS wouldn't it?
@@nikclev Yeah..you have to multiple with the square root of 2 to get the peak so 220 X 1.41 = 310. So that would be -310V to +310V, 620V peak to peak. For 110V US would be -155V to +155V total 310V peak to peak
Full bridge rectifier!
Nice video. What does reverse power mean? And how do we fix it?
Reverse power means that the fuel needed to keep the engine running at grid frequency is not enough. As the engine is connected to the grid, however, it can't slow down because it is magnetically coupled to the grid, so it will always rotate at grid frequency. This means that the other generator needs to supply additional power to keep the secondary engine running, and this is "reverse power". You fix it by increasing the fuel to the secondary generator so it acts as a generator and not a load. It's also helped somewhat if the engine you connect runs at a SLIGHLTY higher frequency than the grid. at 4:15 you can see that the video talks about the second engine running slower than the grid if the rotation is . You can connect the generator in either case, but if the syncroscope rotates to the , it, in theory, generates a TINY bit of power as the engine has to slow down to match grid frequency instead. In either case, as long as you increase the fuel (if you are on manual) immediately after connecting, it will generate some power.
@@Znyggisen thank you very much for ur explanation!! Wished u were my engineer onboard 🙏🏼
hello!
in normal condition load on 1 generator
V-440
Hz-60
KW- 300
A-227
Did you encounter the next problem when are in parallel with the same load?
1 -V - 440 2-V440
1 -Hz - 60 2 -Hz -60
1 -KW -150 2 -KW -150
but the Amp they increse at 200A almost on both of them
thx!
I guess these are Amps per Phase am i right? So 440A at 227A per phase, so 681A in total are 229.6 kW, pretty much exactly the 300kW it should have. So your problem is, the gens have 440V and have an Output of 150 kW so they should run at 318A in total and 108A per phase. Your question is why the Amps increase to 200A. Maybe your system was running on Auto mode and automatically regulated the voltage to ensure that the reactive load gets distributed evenly between the generators. So they will accept/deny the same amount of reactive load. Did you double check that they were running at 440V? If they are transformer connected maybe they regulated the voltage, or maybe the voltage got directly regulated at the generators by changing the power of the exciter. They had to run at 250V at 200A per Phase, 600A in total to run at 150kW.
We have made thousands of those switchboards 😁😁😁😁😁😁
Wow. I would love to see how you made those. Great job.
@@markroymangrobang1072 You are most welcome to come for a factory tour 😃
If you are adjusting avr parameters on the DG that is not even on net, then God bless you but sign off. Read about adjustment of AVR from ABB manuals or at least from manual available on board.
radek babicz yes that is right. Always consult to the manual. Not all generators and machineries are the same.
so you use engine throttle to adjust the amount of contribution from each unit?
Frequency is proportional to speed of generator engine sir.
@@markroymangrobang1072 Yes, but when 2 generators are synchronized, what controls the power output balance? Thank you for answering!
Increase speed governor for underload generator
Decrease speed governor for overload generator
Do these until load is balanced
@@markroymangrobang1072 Will that not have an impact on frequency? Like you said the frequency is proportional to the speed of the engine.
@@danielplusben it will affect the frequency. Let's say the bus bar's frequency is 59hz, to make it 60hz, you must increase speed of the running generator through its speed governor. If two generators are connected, increase speed of the two generators with equal amount to maintain load on both generators.
I dont think this helps me with replacing my brake pads but sure i watch it
What keeps them precisely synchronized after?
Magnetic locking of the fields in each on-line gen. Basically.
sir how much is normal amperage for DG
What happens if one genny turns off/runs out of fuel/etc and it's still connected? Does that ever happen at all? The power head would act as a motor and pull a ton of current, I guess it would trip the breaker? Would it trip before causing damage to the prime mover? I know connecting when it's not synced does that.
The normal method to deal with this situation with parallel synchronous generators is to use reverse power relays which will trip the breaker. This is often not done on smaller installations because of cost Motorizing the generator in itself is not going to cause damage but on diesel prime movers the injectors are likely to foul over time. On steam turbine or water wheels damage is not likely Stator overcurrent protection is always there.
@@parkerholden7140 Interesting! Thanks for the response!
Yes - "reverse power breaker" relay tip would/should occur ...
It wouldn't pull a huge amount of current because the generator is already at speed and synced and just pulls what it needs to keep running, but of course it would be a waste of power so you don't want it to happen even with steam/water
Please explain, why when doing the generator synchronization process, the syncronoscope appointment must turn clockwise
if the syncronoscope is running counter clockwise it means the incoming generator is running slower then the running generator (ie, less then 60Hz) that would result in a draw on the existing generator. Electrically speeding the incoming generator up till they come in sync. Or more likely it would trip a safety as the incoming generator isn't generating but drawing power from the bus (in effect behaving like an electric Motor.) If the incoming generator runs slightly faster then it will start out with some minimal push of power into the system and not trip the safety.
@@Megacheez very amazing your answer thank you
Assuming the machines are direct connected rather than transformer connected how do you ensure reactive power sharing?
You have to adjust the voltage regulators so that more/less reactive power gets accepted/rejected.
Oh sorry you are talking about direct connected rather than transformer connected.. i overred that... well then i dont know for sure, but i guess by changing the power of the exciter you can regulate the voltage of the generator so that it can accept/deny more/less reactive power. If the gen uses a permanent magnet instead of an excitercoil i have no idea how to realize that without a transformer.
@@Rolhenw so your ship generators are transformer connected? What voltage do you generate at?
@@andyxox4168 i have nothing to do with ship generators, sorry 🤷♂️ and i already corrected myself by saying you need to change the exciter power to regulate the voltage
@@Rolhenw being a marine electrician I assumed you were on boats, still having been on land based generation for +35 years I can tell you your answer is substantially wrong 😑
try running them in series
I need to learn about electrical safety on ship
Sir, ano po ba pinagkaiba ng nakatapos ng electrical engineer sa ibang electrician na di nakapagtapos pero parehong may ETO, tanong lang sir😊 as an Electrician na Nagpaplano palang mag onboard, im 20 years old pa lang po sir and nag iipon pa para maka sampa at gusto ko lang rin humingi ng advice😅 as a Beginner 😅
So how much money do make pressing a few buttons?
7:55 The real question we need answered is which lady is that on the wall?
where are you from friend
At last no voice... Hopefully u will give best video next time
If the two gennys are in parallel, how can they have different loads?
Watched another video. I think it has to do with one being faster and having more throttle/steam/whatever than the other, and probably voltage too? so it wants to push more current onto the bus bar
Depends on the throttle state of each generator' governor. Increasing throttle means letting more fuel combusted, hence more potential power
@@yyyyy354 Ah, gotcha. it's really cool that you can control that
@@polymetric2614 As Yuu-kun said, power output is governed by how much fuel the engine recieves. The load on each generator is controlled by how much lag there is between the magnetic field of the generator vs the grid, with the generator with the biggest load being like a bigger magnet.
All generators always have identical speed and voltage, regardless of load.
is not parallel as time you ndont start at the same time and the current is not i phase by chirchof law
I may hope you run this synchronous yes, because no net coupled generator cant run without..
Sir mag tatanong lang po ako.. dba sabi mocsa final. LOAD IS ADDED TO AVOID THE GENERATOR BECOMING A LOAD.... ano po ibog sabihin sa tagalog..
Magiging electric motor na siya, hindi na generator. Siya na yung kumukunsumo ng power imbis na siya yung nagbibigay.
Ya shat ya 😂😂😂
Where is the generator
Please share more videos
Thanks but you are jeneas
PWEDE BANG I AUTOMATIC NALANG ANG PAG LOAD SHARE?
THANK YOU♥️
Pwede po, kahit isang pindot lang, automatic na aandar at mag paparallel
Sir what is u r salary? And what traine eto salary? Please me
Why u stop making videos ?
My camera broke. Ill try to upload new vid soon. Thanks for stopping by.
Temperature difference in generators is very bad because it can make parts bigger and if the shell and rotor have too different temperatures then rotor might touch the shell and cause vibration or in the worst case it can explode
Get rid of the background music
Thanks for the feedback sir. I will try next time.
@@markroymangrobang1072 good video though. Thanks
The third step is subscribe to your channel 😂😂
😨👿...maaaan you need to start again from the school!!!... your oscilloscope is clearly showing the same frequency of both machines and you cheking oscilloscope do not understand what you see !!!!
This two signals has only different phases!!! (in our case we can say initial phases!!!👿😨
Hello, can you be more elaborate and specific on which part or time of the video you are talking about?
Crap
Nob
Good job 👍
hi @markroymangrobang1072 Ifrom freshgrad Electrical, Where can I find experience working on a ship🙏