God gave us free will. God presents us with choices. We make the choice, the consequences of that choice are already predetermined by God. That's what predestination is, God knowing the outcome of whatever we chose because he has determined that outcome. But it is still our free will choice.
I don't think that is what the Bible says. We certainly are called to act and to make choices and are responsible for those. Nonetheless, we were dead in our trespasses and unable to choose God by nature. Does God sit back and hope we choose Him or does He choose us? Was it possible that no man would have been saved if none had chosen God? If it is left to man and some level of equity, ability to believe, reason, aptitude to understand, then that is man centered and earned...a man driven gospel and not graceful at all. I am going to respectfully believe that regeneration precedes faith and faith being a gift leads to salvation....All from God...nothing from my ability...that's the Gospel!!
@@TheTrueRoad If you have an electronic Bible, do a search for these 2 words "if" and "then" in the same verse. There will be many. The "if" is the choice you have to make, the "then" is the predetermined consequence. And yes, it can be said that all mankind, with the exception of Jesus, is predestined to hell; Rom 5:18a (NIV) "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men..." So why don't all men go to hell? Free will choice. Conversely, it can be said that all mankind is predestined to heaven if every single person made the decision to accept God on his terms. Rom 5:18b "...so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." So why don't all men go to heaven? Free will choice. Also consider 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "this is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved..." If God wants all to be saved, why aren't they? Man's free will choice.
@@williamclemens4882 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.” John 15:16
It's clear that we do not agree and one of us is misguided. I will trust the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures and to lead us to a proper understanding of His infallible Word. Be blessed!
@@lalotorres4614 you are exactly right, God chose you but did you accept? You can reject where upon a different consequence chosen by God will prevail.
@@williamclemens4882 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:14-24
@@TheTrueRoad Yes God is just and holy. I think the sticking point in this discussion is the word choose. Think of it this way, God predetermines (chooses) the outcome of our choices. If we reject God, he has already predetermined (chose) our going to hell. If we accept Jesus' sacrifice God has already predetermined (chose) our going to heaven. Does that make sense?
@@williamclemens4882 we agree....and I believe we agree that man is still responsible for all actions and agency that comes out of sin nature. God is not the architect of sin.
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God gave us free will. God presents us with choices. We make the choice, the consequences of that choice are already predetermined by God. That's what predestination is, God knowing the outcome of whatever we chose because he has determined that outcome. But it is still our free will choice.
I don't think that is what the Bible says. We certainly are called to act and to make choices and are responsible for those. Nonetheless, we were dead in our trespasses and unable to choose God by nature. Does God sit back and hope we choose Him or does He choose us? Was it possible that no man would have been saved if none had chosen God? If it is left to man and some level of equity, ability to believe, reason, aptitude to understand, then that is man centered and earned...a man driven gospel and not graceful at all. I am going to respectfully believe that regeneration precedes faith and faith being a gift leads to salvation....All from God...nothing from my ability...that's the Gospel!!
@@TheTrueRoad If you have an electronic Bible, do a search for these 2 words "if" and "then" in the same verse. There will be many. The "if" is the choice you have to make, the "then" is the predetermined consequence. And yes, it can be said that all mankind, with the exception of Jesus, is predestined to hell; Rom 5:18a (NIV) "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men..." So why don't all men go to hell? Free will choice. Conversely, it can be said that all mankind is predestined to heaven if every single person made the decision to accept God on his terms. Rom 5:18b "...so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." So why don't all men go to heaven? Free will choice. Also consider 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "this is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved..." If God wants all to be saved, why aren't they? Man's free will choice.
@@williamclemens4882 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.”
John 15:16
It's clear that we do not agree and one of us is misguided. I will trust the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures and to lead us to a proper understanding of His infallible Word. Be blessed!
@@lalotorres4614 you are exactly right, God chose you but did you accept? You can reject where upon a different consequence chosen by God will prevail.
We choose to go to hell, God chooses to save some
Why wouldn't God choose to save all?
@@williamclemens4882 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:14-24
So he definitely chose some to be saved and some to go to hell
It would be just for all to perish. Because of His grace and mercy, He chose some to give to the Son to display that love. He is just and merciful!!
Why would God choose to send someone to hell?
He is just. He is holy.
@@TheTrueRoad Yes God is just and holy. I think the sticking point in this discussion is the word choose. Think of it this way, God predetermines (chooses) the outcome of our choices. If we reject God, he has already predetermined (chose) our going to hell. If we accept Jesus' sacrifice God has already predetermined (chose) our going to heaven. Does that make sense?
@@williamclemens4882 we agree....and I believe we agree that man is still responsible for all actions and agency that comes out of sin nature. God is not the architect of sin.